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MeFi post: An emerging new picture of animal consciousness

In a college class many moons ago, I was taught that animals don't have sentience because they don't respond to mirrors and don't use symbolic language. So many people do in fact believe that animals are not truly conscious.

tofu_crouton, you might be interested in this part of the "Background" page:

Cleaner wrasse fish appear to pass a version of the mirror-mark test. Questions of self awareness in... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by doctornemo at 11:16 AM on April 26, 2024

This is a depressing debate. Since when are instinct and consciousness opposed to one another? Anyone with ADD can attest to being conscious while still behaving instinctively. I say that animals do the same, each according to their nature.
posted to MetaFilter by SnowRottie at 10:31 AM on April 26, 2024

I wonder how much religious teachings over the centuries has lead to this unfairness

Or teaching in general. One of the things about language is that it functions as a sort of annex to consciousness, a portable packet of conscious workspace that really draws attention to itself, and tries to explain everything in terms of itself. I think the example of child-rearing is an excellent one, because new parents are surrounded by... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by mittens at 7:27 AM on April 26, 2024

That third step is quite a leap, and sets out a pretty dangerous kind of ethics that is really more a kind of aesthetics: Be nice to animals who have test results that make consciousness scientists interested. It sounds kind of like "be nice to animals because they have a capacity to feel pain"--which has led to a lot of research in how best to slaughter billions of cows without distressing them overmuch. There are pressing problems in our relationship to animals,... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by mittens at 5:24 AM on April 26, 2024

eponysterical
posted to MetaFilter by neuron at 7:33 PM on April 25, 2024

It's a good first step.
Next step: define consciousness.
posted to MetaFilter by neuron at 7:33 PM on April 25, 2024

MeFi post: The core query softness continues without mitigation

My mind sobs each time I witness this.

Once upon a time, Facebook OAuth logins were new tech, and the poor journalist blogging about them got 1. amazing amounts of traffic considering, and 2. massive amounts of angry comments demanding to know why they changed the Facebook UI so radically. The conclusion was that a huge number of people search for "Facebook login" then just click, instead of like, bookmarking it.
posted to MetaFilter by pwnguin at 3:46 PM on April 23, 2024

This is interesting but I have a problem with the framing of heroic software engineers against evil management/consultants. Not that management isn't evil but there's nothing inherently ethically or morally pure about software development. It's some old school Silicon valley/Microserfs philosophy.
posted to MetaFilter by muddgirl at 12:36 PM on April 23, 2024

MeFi post: Istanbull not Coinstantinople

It just struck me that cryptocoins are homeopathic currency.
posted to MetaFilter by dances_with_sneetches at 2:38 PM on April 18, 2024

MeFi post: The Incredible Machine

WOW.

This is just so cool. I love that you can do things like this right in the browser these days.

I love Randall Munroe and XKCD.

Thank you so much for posting this, Rhaomi!
posted to MetaFilter by kristi at 2:47 PM on April 7, 2024

MeFi post: Smallest measure of ordinary care

why does a child need a handgun
why does a child need a handgun
why does a child need a handgun

I'd ask the parents but they bought him a handgun.
posted to MetaFilter by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on April 9, 2024

On reflection, a further comment—

It is outrageous, ridiculous, irresponsible, and wildly out of touch with reality to respond to this news with any of:

“I hate prisons”
“There was sexism in the courtroom”
“This could be a slippery slope”
“In my fantasyland, this doesn’t happen”
“We should outlaw guns”

Please be serious. The hand wringing here is horrifying. Go to a mass... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by cupcakeninja at 5:33 PM on April 9, 2024

One of the scariest moments of my life was standing in line at a grocery store while the open-carrying guy in front of me started an argument over prices with the early twenty-something cashier. It ended up being resolved by a manager, but for a few brief moments I didn't know if I should anticipate running away, diving for cover, or tackling the guy.

Open carry is one of the most vile parts of gun culture. There's no reason for it other than to proudly display your... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by RonButNotStupid at 5:55 AM on April 10, 2024

I'm also fucking disgusted every time someone is brought up on trial and their whole lives are put under intense scrutiny. The mother in this case was "grilled" on having an extramarital affair during her trial.

Not from TFA, but linked on that page:

“Meloche [her affair partner] testified Wednesday that Jennifer Crumbley had told him she was able to leave work to meet up with him even though she allegedly told... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by bluloo at 8:04 PM on April 9, 2024

The assessment I've seen with this case is that while there is the potential for abuse with holding parents accountable for the criminal acts of their kids - in this case, holy fuck did these two aid and abet their son's murder spree.
posted to MetaFilter by NoxAeternum at 11:22 AM on April 9, 2024

I also had a kid with mental health troubles as a teen and I did not give him a gun. I wouldn't even give him a BB gun, let alone a Sig Sauer - I mean, come on people, that is not, like, a fun little squirrel hunting rifle for country kids. That is a handgun, an automatic handgun, that has no use other than to shoot people. Letting a 15 year old even handle it outside a well supervised shooting range is completely insane. These people are not just negligent, they are abusive and as such, they... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by mygothlaundry at 4:05 PM on April 9, 2024

Or simply change the law so it's illegal to sell guns in the US!

I mean, if I had my fantasy wish list of changes the US would make, "not selling guns" would be right up there with "universal health insurance" and "forgive student debt/free higher education" and "legal abortions that are easily accessible to everyone in the country".

But not selling guns is probably the least likely... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by litera scripta manet at 12:34 PM on April 9, 2024

It’s bad enough that the parents didn’t go home with the kid when they were called into school because they or the school were afraid that he might harm someone else, but imagine how impossibly shitty it is that they cared so little about their kid’s suicidal ideations that they couldn’t be bothered to take the day off work to go home with him and show him some care.
posted to MetaFilter by bendy at 3:22 PM on April 9, 2024

You definitely don't give them free access to a gun at any time.
posted to MetaFilter by tiny frying pan at 3:43 PM on April 9, 2024

DO you think all the parents who for structural reasons are unable to prevent their kids causing harm should be tossed in prison too?

No, and just because you're flinging yourself down the slippery slope doesn't make the rest of us obliged to join you. Should we worry about the risk of parents being unjustly held accountable for their children's crimes? Of course - but the idea that it is impossible for them to be be accountable is an... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by NoxAeternum at 1:14 PM on April 9, 2024

They bought their son the gun, they didn't adequately secure the gun, and the gun was used in a shooting. That would have been enough for me.
posted to MetaFilter by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:15 AM on April 9, 2024

Criminalization of more and more behaviors

This conviction did not involve a new law, nor a previously-undreamed-of extension of prior laws. It does not even set any sort of binding legal precedent (though, if the decision is appealed and affirmed on certain grounds, it might, for Michigan only). So it is not "criminalization" of previously noncriminal behavior.

In this case, we are looking at extreme facts... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by praemunire at 3:50 PM on April 9, 2024

Now do the useless mom of that Rittenhouse choad.
posted to MetaFilter by chronkite at 11:01 AM on April 9, 2024

Wow this is horrifying to me. The implications, in our extremely (the most in the world) carceral country, of criminally prosecuting parents for their children's crimes, are extremely distressing.

I don't think parents should automatically be held responsible for crimes committed by their children. But in this case, absolutely they should be.

Frankly, any parent who owns a gun and fails to secure it appropriately,... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by litera scripta manet at 12:31 PM on April 9, 2024

Since the conservative view is that parents should have complete dominion over their children I think it's only fitting that they should have complete responsibility for their children's actions as well.
posted to MetaFilter by RonButNotStupid at 11:33 AM on April 9, 2024

MeFi post: WaPo Opinion: Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness.

Also from Politico, about a new poll: The Best Way to Find Out If Someone Is a Trump Voter? Ask Them What They Think About Manhood.

In which 73% of both Republicans and Democrats agree with this quote from First Gentleman Doug Emhoff (as long as you don't tell them who said it):

“We’ve kind of confused what it means to be a man, what it means to be masculine. You’ve got this trope out there that you’ve got to be tough — and angry and lash out to... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by box at 2:07 PM on July 15, 2023

amanda: I had a conversation with someone I consider myself fairly close to, someone who's struggled with relationships and connections for a long time, where he said something like: "I know I'm not working on myself just to get a cookie. I know I'm not doing this stuff to 'earn' other people or to 'attain' them. But also, I could really use a cookie."

It's genuinely upsetting to see someone put in tremendous amounts of effort for... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:02 AM on July 14, 2023

While I'm not surprised that the conversation here has veered towards simultaneously critiquing masculinity as a construct and critiquing the gender binary, I think there's more to this issue than just those two vectors.

Yes, binary gender constructs force a lot of men into too-small identity palates while pushing some really terrible ideas about "who they are." Yes, masculinity as an umbrella is used to normalize some extremely toxic... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:29 AM on July 14, 2023

I'm not saying this is right, true in every instance, or using it to excuse bad behavior:

Risk taking, confidence, and willingness to take the lead are often percieved to be positive hetero cis-male attributes during hetero courtship and dating, particulary amongst young people. That's kind of what this article is about. I guess it'd be nice if those behaviors could be strictly bracketed to romance and dating, but separating individual personality aspects by... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by eagles123 at 8:13 PM on July 12, 2023

> I do tend to think it is but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were also a significant placebo effect in play here. Or, like, testosterone pulls a few big levers but the specific male coded behaviors that come out of that are more socially conditioned.

It is both, and it is a spectrum, and I'm definitely not saying your hormones give anyone a free pass on being a shitty or abusive person.

But can testify that being testosterone dominant or... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by loquacious at 2:31 PM on July 11, 2023

I think the author would probably agree with you. While acknowledging difference seems important to her argument (which struck me as a pretty even-handed-if-not-terribly-fresh take on a well-worn topic), i really don't get a make-penises-special-again vibe from this text.
posted to MetaFilter by ducky l'orange at 2:24 PM on July 11, 2023

This will drive gender-essentialist conservatives right up the wall, but speaking as someone NB/trans, I really wish it was easier for people - men in particular - to try out estrogen to be able to see both sides of the gender hormone divide, if only temporarily.

Because being estrogen dominant is a whole different world and experience and it really highlights how much hormones regulate and inform our behavior and actions.

Within the first week... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by loquacious at 10:37 AM on July 11, 2023

We have entirely changed how we raise girls, and entirely for the better, since I was a kid in the years around 1980. There were so many resources and so much support for my raising girls to be outspoken, achievement-oriented, not consumed by the beauty myth, etc., that it was a piece of cake, frankly.

But—and this is anecdata but I've got a fuckload of it—we haven't done a got-damned thing about how we raise boys.

This.... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by obsoletefuture at 10:20 AM on July 11, 2023

If you centre aspiring to femininity in your identity, and then realize that you can't ever live up to those ideals either, where does that leave you? I already know that my body, for example, is deeply unfeminine and should strive to be smaller in the world - and I still feel oafish and gross just by existing in public sometimes. It defines masculinity as trying to get away from something that a lot of people can't get away from.

It also falls victim to exact same... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by sagc at 8:27 AM on July 11, 2023

(And there is absolutely no dearth of positive male characters either, come on! Are we supposed to pretend that men and male characters are marginalized in our media? That Disney and Pixar and DreamWorks have nothing to offer in the way of male characters worth emulating? Puhleeze.)

Not at all, but at least from my limited perspective, there don't seem to be many popular male characters that exhibit progressive (lets say,... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by destrius at 8:25 AM on July 11, 2023

Why can't your boys have Elsa and Anna for a role model? Girls seem to have no trouble being inspired by male characters, why can't boys be allowed to adopt female role models?

He does, like I mentioned in my comment. He's as into Frozen as his sister is, and when we went to watch the Frozen musical this year, they both happily wore these ultra-glittery organza capes with snowflakes on them.

But while his sister is... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by destrius at 8:00 AM on July 11, 2023

The implication being that a parasocial attachment to Andrew Tate or Aidan Ross or Fresh and Fit or even Mr. Beast is hard to overcome by telling young people that masculinity isn't real and just do whatever. Something else or someone else has to affirmatively take the place of the toxicity for those who feel the need for that aspect of identity.

Consider the Sneako/MoistCritikal saga. Charlie (Moist) ultimately 'won' by brandishing an AR-15 and calling Sneako a literal... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by snuffleupagus at 7:37 AM on July 11, 2023

Really interesting discussion. MiraK, I appreciate your perspective. A few things said upthread that resonated me: a) embracing a queer philosophy of self acceptance is super helpful for straight men, b) masculinity becomes toxic when it feels like an obligation, c) gender works best when it feels like play, d) the male role models we see are often hollow, underdeveloped people.

I moved from the Deep South to nyc in my early 20s. I was already unusually liberal and... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Buckt at 7:24 AM on July 11, 2023

You want a reading list for masculinity? Watch Mr. Rogers, read Kipling's 'If'

Michael Caine reads Kipling's If
posted to MetaFilter by philip-random at 10:28 PM on July 10, 2023

Also, I think some of the conversation here has been conflating being "a man" with being "masculine". I'm not very well versed in gender studies (most of what I've learnt has come from MeFi really), but I believe this should be true: masculinity is a social/cultural form of expression that can be decoupled from a person's gender identity. Both people identifying as men and women can desire to express masculinity, or feminity, and probably a mix of the two.... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by destrius at 9:47 PM on July 10, 2023

As a cishet (mostly stay-at-home-) dad of a boy, I think about this a lot. Children (lets say 3-10 years) aren't really the focus of this article or the discussion here, but I have felt there to be a lack of progressive male role models for kids that age. My younger daughter has her modern Disney princesses like Elsa and Moana that generally embody more progressive, feminist values (while still being problematic in some ways), while I don't really see anything similar for boys. Yes, there's no... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by destrius at 9:25 PM on July 10, 2023

I asked a friend to solve the question of what it means to be a good man that isn't just "be a good person."

Paraphrasing her answer: both men and women should want to be good people, but because they start from different places, they will need to focus on different things in order to get there.
posted to MetaFilter by one for the books at 9:06 PM on July 10, 2023

And if everyone has good jobs at good wages, then how can men distinguish themselves as "providers?"

I think that upward wage pressure helps relieve some of the acute issues addressed in the article, like reduced marriageability and poorer life outcomes for men. I understand that for many in this thread, those issues aren’t as important as reforming masculinity itself, but as policy goals they’re much more tangible.
posted to MetaFilter by ducky l'orange at 8:55 PM on July 10, 2023

I wouldn't rule out the power of a mature but unrelated female to hang around with for young adult man training.

Sure, and I don't rule it out either. There are all kinds of good role models for being human.

But there's something to be said for role models who embody specific kinds of representation. It's an idea that's unquestioned in progressive circles when it comes to other kinds of people. And I'd say it's as... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Artifice_Eternity at 8:34 PM on July 10, 2023

“I mean, there are certain attributes around masculinity that we should embrace. Men think about sex more than women. Use that as motivation to be successful and meet women. Men are more impulsive. Men will run out into a field and get shot up to think they’re saving their buddies.”

He was careful to point out that he doesn’t believe that women wouldn’t do as much but that the distributions are different.

“Where I think this... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by eagles123 at 7:18 PM on July 10, 2023

Similarly, I think the Democrats would do well to do more performative patriotisim. There's a certain subset of the population that really just wants to wave flags around and yell "WOOOOOOO!", and the Dems have ceded that territory to the GOP. I'm not being snarky - I really believe Democrats should do more flag waving.

I'd say the average Democratic politician does lots of this stuff. They show up at July 4th, Memorial Day, and Veterans... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by Artifice_Eternity at 5:08 PM on July 10, 2023

MetaFilter: Bad Jobs for Men Only Because Otherwise They'll Buy Women Probably
posted to MetaFilter by Cpt. The Mango at 2:48 PM on July 10, 2023

the mr rogers analogy to me is interesting because the dude was super religious, and I think definitely was going for a core message (although never explicitly mentioned) of lefty christian - like he believed that his show was his ministry, he was imparting the values of love / jesus, etc. etc.

Striving for a lefty Christianity and striving for a positive masculinity feel like similar projects, in a way - in either case one could argue that the... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by atoxyl at 2:43 PM on July 10, 2023

I'm afraid that to many, many men acculturated in the present environment, these won't mean much unless they can buy control over one or more women and the license to commit violence against people further away from whiteness than you are.

Is this a "and that's why good jobs at good wages are just one part of my three part plan" argument or a "no, it's hopeless, they're all monsters and we cannot help them" argument?
posted to MetaFilter by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:40 PM on July 10, 2023

I’m sure I’ve said this before (and the article touches on it in a way) but the thing about gender norms is, as a male-identified person, other people - and I definitely don’t just mean other men - still often expect you to adhere to traditionally masculine standards of behavior. It’s not so stark, nor do I believe it so immutable, as the exaggerated version the “red pill” people are selling but there’s certainly some truth to the idea that there’s a gap between well-intentioned, progressive... [more]
posted to MetaFilter by atoxyl at 2:19 PM on July 10, 2023