Serj Tankian's (System of a Down) comments

September 14, 2001 12:56 PM

Serj Tankian's (System of a Down) comments on the terrorist attacks. Aside from making a whole lot of sense, in this well formulated article, Serj also offers up the point-of-view of a middle-eastern living in America. It's a good read, and I would like to thank Qambient for tracking down this article.
posted by Dark Messiah (36 comments total)

Shallow, apologistic crap. American oil companies (and BP) have always controlled Middle East oil. Nobody else has the technology to get it out of the ground.
posted by username at 1:13 PM on September 14, 2001

Tankian asks the most important question: not who did this but why is there so much hatred of the U.S. that people are willing to kill themselves (and thousands of innocents)? If your house in the Gaza Strip has recently been bulldozed or you have been dodging missiles from a U.S. - made and supplied helicopter gunship, should we be surprised that there is dancing in the streets at this tragedy?
posted by koiran at 1:19 PM on September 14, 2001

Thanks, Dark Messiah. Let all of us interested in peace keep up the good work at finding thoughtful, provoking essays like this and others that have been posted.

As much as I despair at the gears of war rumbling into place here in America, I am heartened by the knowledge that there are other voices out there that are not so full of bloodlust and hate.
posted by mapalm at 1:22 PM on September 14, 2001

Utterly absurd. Just because the US may have made foreign policy mistakes doesn't in any way mitigate the terribleness of the terrorist attacks. And what actors' motives in the Middle East have been pure?
posted by stchang at 1:25 PM on September 14, 2001

What do you expect from a singer? This is right up there with Sting preaching population control while he creates 7 children. Hey, Dark Messiah, wanna buy a disc of Kissinger's greatest hits :)?
posted by prodigal at 1:27 PM on September 14, 2001

Why is not the most important question.
The most important question is HOW.
posted by username at 1:28 PM on September 14, 2001

Oooh, I am getting so everlastingly tired of hearing about how we need to understand what assholes we (the US) are, and that this is why people kill themselves killing us. Just because they are willing to die for their cause does not make it just.
posted by kd at 1:31 PM on September 14, 2001

kd, stchang -- I don't think anyone who writes pieces like this thinks the attacks are justifiable. They are pointing out that if we are going to take steps to avoid future attacks, it makes sense to understand the reasons for these attacks and what possible responses might precipitate. They are arguing that if we react poorly (ie - bombing IMHO), we may simply precipitate more attacks.
posted by jeb at 1:37 PM on September 14, 2001

What do you expect from a singer? This is right up there with Sting preaching population control while he creates 7 children. Hey, Dark Messiah, wanna buy a disc of Kissinger's greatest hits :)?

LOL
posted by glenwood at 1:42 PM on September 14, 2001

Just so much nonsense. No one asks why? There are any number of accounts out and on line that tell exactly what Bin Laden is all about and what motivates him. This posting is hardly a revelation and is certainly not at all convincing.
The oil nations need our money and we need their oil. We make deals.
the UN? forget it. It was the UN that decided that zionism is racism and then decided that not much else mattered in the world, including slave trade. There are some 21 arab nations that consistently dump on Israel, and you expect the Israelis to welcome the UN in the area?
Try NATO. They won't trust the U.S (Palestinians), and they are right: we have been a friend to Israel But so too a frilend to Egypt, the country that gets the second (after Israel) most money from our country.
When the facts are filtered through and answers come up I suspect you will discover what is alrady being hinted at: the terror attack was cobbled together by no fewer than three different groups, engineered by Bin Laden, funded by Iraq, and with some Palestinian group included, and perhaps some help out of Lebanon.
The nonsense that if we retaliate things may get wors is the sort of thing that leads to bully crap...you find weakness and you continue.
posted by Postroad at 1:45 PM on September 14, 2001

The crap-eaters who took the flight training in Florida...I'm glad they were able to go out to a local bar and get hammered before killing a few thousand people, particularly as:

"A practicing Muslim will not touch alcohol out of fear of God. Those who do usually feel much guilt on breaking a Qur'anic injunction." - www.themodernreligion.com

The whole getting drunk thing illustrates just how wonderfully committed to this "holy war" these characters were. Can't even stay sober. Pathetic.
posted by daragh at 1:50 PM on September 14, 2001

...I suspect you will discover what is alrady being hinted at: the terror attack was cobbled together by no fewer than three different groups, engineered by Bin Laden, funded by Iraq, and with some Palestinian group included, and perhaps some help out of Lebanon.

Geez, Postroad, you certainly are sure of yourself. You in the FBI or something? Hey, here's an idea: why wait for the evidence? Why not just kill 'em all now? (On second thought, that's likely what's going to happen anyway, with appropriate spin).
posted by mapalm at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2001

I really want to know what Fred Durst thinks. Also that guy from Creed.
posted by jjg at 2:03 PM on September 14, 2001

Hey, Dark Messiah, wanna buy a disc of Kissinger's greatest hits :)?

Kissinger's greatest hits are classified
posted by espada at 2:07 PM on September 14, 2001

I'm waiting for Barbra Streisand to tell me what to think.
posted by marknau at 2:08 PM on September 14, 2001

jeb writes "makes sense to understand the reasons for these attacks and what possible responses might precipitate"

I agree with this, and that is what really scares me and what our policy-makers should be terrified of. It is hard to imagine that our response and their counter-response will be anything less than horrific.
posted by stchang at 2:09 PM on September 14, 2001 [1 favorite]

I know that Metafilter tries so very hard to be "above" other discussion groups, but:

why wait for the evidence? Why not just kill 'em all now? (On second thought, that's likely what's going to happen anyway, with appropriate spin).

mapalm, kiss my ass, you frightened little toady. If you think America can save its fragile ass by admitting our gross evils in foreign policy, then just say so and be done. You have posted way too much apocalyptic whining about how scared you are. Fine, we get it. Now just shut up, or call your congresspersons, 'cause you're just annoying here.

(Matt, please feel free to delete my account if you feel I've crossed the line. But aren't you getting even the least bit tired of this person's whimpering?)
posted by Wulfgar! at 2:17 PM on September 14, 2001

Wayne Newton has spoken. Also Chubby Checker.
posted by prodigal at 2:23 PM on September 14, 2001

From the essay:

"Stop the violence first."

People here called it crap and nonsense?

Damn. People suck.
posted by jcterminal at 2:24 PM on September 14, 2001

The Klan killed countless minority residents of this nation. White supremacist groups have committed acts of terrorism on American soil. Want to tell me what minorities did to deserve the violence, how everything must be put "into a context?" (As someone else said in another thread along these sickening lines.) Should minorities try to understand why someone would hate them that much? None of the people here were from Vietnam or Central America or probably even Iraq. They were from areas where we've droped no bomb whatsoever, probably. And like bin Laden, they hate Jewish people and would whether there was an Israeli state or not. Go ahead and side with them, or apologize for them, if you choose. Of course we should be more careful, and not claim innocence, or refuse to own up to our own mistakes. We should always remember to lead by example, before doing so in any other way. But one can go too far, and nothing excuses the violence here.
posted by raysmj at 2:27 PM on September 14, 2001

With today’s gains in the use of alternative fuels, develop them to full usage with autos and other utilities, to make the country less dependant on an already depleting natural reserve, oil.

True, by the way (and noted that he only focuses on the Middle East exclusively, unlike so many others). But bin Laden apparently didn't even like our presence anywhere there, and there's the cultural thing too. It doesn't matter if we leave, we'll still sell products and export our entertainment.
posted by raysmj at 2:33 PM on September 14, 2001

Wulfgar:

It's people like you who scare the shit out of me.

People like you who will probably go out this weekend, go to a bar, get drunk, sing the national anthem with your buddies, and go kick some ass.

I am not whining - I am warning.
posted by mapalm at 3:23 PM on September 14, 2001

And Wulfgar, if that's the best argument you can offer up - telling me to leave - then you truly are hopeless. (You polishing yer Glock now?)
posted by mapalm at 3:27 PM on September 14, 2001

not to trivialize, but Wil Wheaton has spoken too. (actually, he sounds pretty sincere & thoughtful.)
posted by epersonae at 3:29 PM on September 14, 2001

People here called it crap and nonsense?
It's possible to believe in not beating up Arab-Americans while thinking the rest of the essay is twaddle, y'know.
posted by darukaru at 3:45 PM on September 14, 2001

Pardon me, I misunderstood the context in which he uses 'stop the violence'. But I still have trouble taking him seriously when he talks about Native American beliefs and Nostradamus pointing towards this being the Era of Upheaval, or whatever mystical garbage he's spouting.
posted by darukaru at 3:52 PM on September 14, 2001

>>Just because the US may have made foreign policy mistakes doesn't in any way mitigate the terribleness of the terrorist attacks.

One point that should be stressed is that these so called "mistakes" on the part of the US were also "attacks" that far exceed the present event in terribleness. Sponsoring mass murder is sponsoring mass murder.

As far as the "migitation" claim is concerned, nobody is actually making it -- only strawmen invented by apologists for American foreign policy.

As Tankian notes, every episode of bombing is also an episode of being bombed. This is a simple logical truth (see Davidson on events) and yet few human beings seem capable of grasping it.
posted by johnb at 3:58 PM on September 14, 2001

johnb: What, in Vietnam? Once again, *this is not related to Vietnam.* No one from Yugoslavia is involved the latest disaster. And I fully backed the latter measure, which by most accounts has had overall positive effects. I doubt the terrorists cared about Yugoslavia anyway. Also, Iraq was war, and if you've seen one military parade there, you know Saddam's not spending at all what he could on overcoming the effect of sanctions, nor has he been the slightest bit cooperative with the U.S. since the end of the war, which was not taken all the way into Iraq.

In any case, Bin-Laden would find something to hate the U.S. for even without the sanctions or military-site-oriented bombing raids. He hates the spread of American culture. That would call for us to stop trading with Muslim countries, and what effect do you think that would have? The sanctions are bad, then the trading is bad. And so it would continue indefinitely. Also, hating Jews is a large part of his thing. It's an overriding theme. Go explain that one away.
posted by raysmj at 4:25 PM on September 14, 2001

"For over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples."
"Despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once again trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation."

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim."

This is taken from an edict written by Bin Laden on February 22, 1998 (see here). Where is the humanity or righteousness in this?

OBL is a cruel, maniacal man hell-bent on violence because he knows no other way. His earlier declaration of war on the US from 1996 quotes the Koran 47:4, "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them" He apparently believes such violence against the US and Israel are not the justified retaliation for any injustice, but the fulfillment of a religious mandate.
posted by mbawiz at 5:05 PM on September 14, 2001

The reason that MeFi has come to be such a well respected and interesting site in my opinion is that the hotheads are usually cut to the quick and people here are asked to be critical thinkers.

When searching for answers, all of them, why, when, who, how, what... you need a variety of information. From all sides of the story. Forming an educated opinion is all about context and it's application to the situation. This is why trials call witnesses, have someone to defend each side of the story and then make a final decision.

Those of you who don't seek to understand the motivations behind the tragedy on Tuesday worry me more than the unknowns surrounding this event. Do everyone a favor and become a better student of history ,so as not to repeat it, and above all become a critical thinker.
posted by jasonshellen at 6:21 PM on September 14, 2001

jasonshellen: A caveat. You seek the motivations. You don't *tell* everyone with 100 percent certainty what said motivations are, in a hostile manner, over and over and over. I haven't seen much genuine seeking of motivations. I've heard it said, basically, how bad America was in the past and how that's the blame. That's the entire argument. It's as bad as Falwell saying on Thursday that we had it coming for collective sins in the personal morality area, or homosexuality or whatever. It's crazy to believe that the debate should start with this statement: America has done wrong, and is paying for it. Do you realize what just happened? Can more of you critics have some tact?

Y'know, maybe the disaster would have been a reality even we'd never done wrong in the past, and terrorist actions may still take place no matter what we do. That's happened throughout history, and it has its mirror in smaller-scale, interpersonal social relations every day. The trouble here isn't a lack of understanding of history, or a failure to try to understand. It's dogma passing argument.
posted by raysmj at 6:46 PM on September 14, 2001

Again I must defer to my critical thinking treatise. I was not saying that the singer who wrote this piece was right in his emphatic proclamation of the how and why, but that *we* as the general public need to take all of these things into consideration before blowing them off as unfounded rumors and political zealotry. From the above thread alone, it has been made perfectly clear that the views of artists such as Mr. Tankian are not taken seriously because 'what do you expect from a singer'. For the record, Tankian is known for his political views in his songwriting. This is not a teen sensation spouting forth that 'Bush is great. He has sexy eyes' or something but some heartfelt thought went into his piece. It should not be so easily dismissed even if some people think its 'Shallow, apologistic crap.'

As for your own comments:
maybe the disaster would have been a reality even we'd never done wrong in the past

That is pure speculation and its relevance is lost on me. It has happened and it's time for some serious introspection.

Furthermore, what does ' It's dogma passing argument.' mean?
posted by jasonshellen at 7:30 PM on September 14, 2001

jason: Bin-Laden is on record as opposing our culture, and the trade with the Mulsim nations which brings that culture there. So his arguments about us having sanctions against Iraq are extraneous. He also hates Jewish people as much as anyone ever has. *This might have happened anyway*, without Vietnam, etc., etc., is very relevant.

Dogma passing for argument is, America did wrong in the past, ergo this is somehow the result of all past wrongdoing. Which isn't backed up by the facts, frankly, any more than Falwell's statements about gays and lesbians, the ACLU, prayer taken out of the public schools and feminism is to blame.
posted by raysmj at 8:17 PM on September 14, 2001

mapalm - nice try, but wrong on all counts. I don't own a gun, I don't go to bars. What I do have is a stronger sense of self than your whining projects. You have, in several threads, promoted the idea that America deserves what transpired on 9-11-01. I've had enough, you whiney little prick. What is your self-rightious pathetic little ass gonna say if America acts with reason and strength? Absolutely nothing, because you're too terrified to face those who are willing to take a stand and say: "never again". For three days, I have watched your fear mongering and wailing at the evil this country has done. I've had enough. Any who know me know that I am a man of peace and reason. But your whimpering and snivelling has me enraged more than I can express. Hide if you wish. The rest of this nation will take action, and be judged for it. But at least we will know that we have courage in the face of your defeatist cuckoldry. I thank all powers that be, if I scare you. Maybe you'll hide in your pacifist shell and quit hassling the rest of reasonable humanity with your terror that validates Tuesday's horrible events. Don't stand for yourself, don't stand for freedom, don't stand against terror. I repeat: kiss my ass, you chickenshit. Those who wish to act don't need your reactive vomit.
posted by Wulfgar! at 10:02 PM on September 14, 2001

Puh-lease.

Disagree if you wish, but enough with the personal attacks.

We really don't need any more of this kind of thing. Veering from the best of human nature to the worst in 5 short posts.

Wulf and mapalm : Take a breath, switch off your PC, go look at some trees or talk to someone you love, just stop it already, please. You're pissing in your own nest here, and mine.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:22 AM on September 15, 2001

Hey stavrosthewonderchicken:

Tell it to Wulfgar. He is frothing. I am calm.
posted by mapalm at 7:11 AM on September 15, 2001