Graphing the Marvel Universe
November 4, 2013 11:22 PM Subscribe
"He calls this the Tao of Hawkeye. You can’t just have a database around Hawkeye, right? Not if you really want to understand Hawkeye over time. Because Hawkeye isn’t just Hawkeye. He’s also Ronin and Goliath and Clint Barton. Sometimes he’s dead. Oh, and by the way: he started as a villain. Who remembers that? -- Back in the eighties people like Mark Gruenwald and Peter Sanderson guarded Marvel Comics' continuity. These days Peter Olson tries to do the same for a much bigger Marvel using science and math.
QFT. The article refers to the Captain America problem: six number 1s since 1996, plus various miniseries. I had that experience with the Fantastic Four. I gave up in 1986 and came back in 2004. I wanted to see what had happened. But I found "reborn", "knights", "adventures", "ultimate" and goodness knows how many others. Worse, with decompression, a single issue told me nothing. It's like Marvel hates readers: I was a deeply committed fan, desperate to buy, and even I was being pushed away! If they can fix this mess, fantastic!
But I think the real problem is the fear of change. As long as events have to be undone and reverted back to the status quo then of course it will be confusing. It's designed that way. And why should anybody care? Nothing moves forwards so none of the stories matters to later stories (at least in the long term). They mattered for a few years in the 1960s and sales soared. But now you can stop buying for 18 years and not miss a thing that matters.
posted by EnterTheStory at 1:20 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
But I think the real problem is the fear of change. As long as events have to be undone and reverted back to the status quo then of course it will be confusing. It's designed that way. And why should anybody care? Nothing moves forwards so none of the stories matters to later stories (at least in the long term). They mattered for a few years in the 1960s and sales soared. But now you can stop buying for 18 years and not miss a thing that matters.
posted by EnterTheStory at 1:20 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Ah, the titanic, multi-decade struggle between Captain Consistency and Rebootizer.
posted by Segundus at 3:06 AM on November 5, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 3:06 AM on November 5, 2013 [11 favorites]
This is only going to get worse now that Marvel is in the movie business. Hey, Avengers was pretty profitable: maybe it needs a remake?
posted by anotherpanacea at 3:25 AM on November 5, 2013
posted by anotherpanacea at 3:25 AM on November 5, 2013
Somewhere a medieval scholar, surrounded by the fractured, broken and inconsistent mythologies of Beowolf or Gilgamesh or Jesus is smiling playfully.
And behind him, a thousand tapestries draw a tale of a man who died thrice, who lived once, who was good and bad, who survived the flood but caused the flood, who was born of man and born of god, who changes still and tells a story about the inconsistent evolution of mythology.
This is nothing new. All popular stories are rebooted and retold until such a time as the inconsistent retelling collapses in on itself and the story becomes a kind of truth. We're not there with Marvel or DC, but when it happens, new stories will be created.
posted by zoo at 4:11 AM on November 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
And behind him, a thousand tapestries draw a tale of a man who died thrice, who lived once, who was good and bad, who survived the flood but caused the flood, who was born of man and born of god, who changes still and tells a story about the inconsistent evolution of mythology.
This is nothing new. All popular stories are rebooted and retold until such a time as the inconsistent retelling collapses in on itself and the story becomes a kind of truth. We're not there with Marvel or DC, but when it happens, new stories will be created.
posted by zoo at 4:11 AM on November 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
Never had this problem with the comics I read as a child: Asterix, Kuifje, Suske & Wiske, Robbedoes, Guust Flater, Blueberry.
posted by Pendragon at 4:24 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 4:24 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
And despite the futility of trying to reduce that complexity to a straight line, people will still try.
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:28 AM on November 5, 2013
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:28 AM on November 5, 2013
Never had this problem with the comics I read as a child: Asterix, Kuifje, Suske & Wiske
Me too! I'm glad there aren't different versions of comics I read like In The Days Of Good Queen Cleo, Tintin, and Spike & Suzy.
posted by zamboni at 4:38 AM on November 5, 2013
Me too! I'm glad there aren't different versions of comics I read like In The Days Of Good Queen Cleo, Tintin, and Spike & Suzy.
posted by zamboni at 4:38 AM on November 5, 2013
Still just the one Spider Jerusalem, too. (Unless you count the cartoon version in the original comic.)
Also, no one will mess with 100 Bullets for a while.
As for new stories: have you checked out Saga?
posted by anotherpanacea at 4:44 AM on November 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Also, no one will mess with 100 Bullets for a while.
As for new stories: have you checked out Saga?
posted by anotherpanacea at 4:44 AM on November 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Suske & Wiske, Robbedoes,
Both recently rebooted.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:58 AM on November 5, 2013
Both recently rebooted.
posted by MartinWisse at 4:58 AM on November 5, 2013
The "problem" with multiple #1s and multiple versions of the same character, of course, is precisely that the two big comic companies don't really care about new people getting into their books, even though they periodically take stabs at drawing in new readers. The new #1s are done to bring in more sales from the existing fans, both the avid collectors (and the speculators who don't understand that the bottom of the comics collecting market has basically dropped out) and maybe a few people who think that the title is getting a fresh start, then realize that it's really the same old crap from the same old hacks and stop buying it. Same with the Ultimate versions and MAX versions and whatnot, which basically boil down to a subset of characters from the "main" continuity who get to swear and have sex more often.
It's not even a natural evolution of an archetypical character over a significant period of time in the hands of vastly different storytellers, as with the examples that zoo alludes to; DC Comics rebooted its entire continuity in an intricately-plotted mega-crossover event that took several years... and just a few years later, did it again, with much less planning, because they weren't pushing enough copies out the doors every month. That's where you get your spaghetti continuity from.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:04 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not even a natural evolution of an archetypical character over a significant period of time in the hands of vastly different storytellers, as with the examples that zoo alludes to; DC Comics rebooted its entire continuity in an intricately-plotted mega-crossover event that took several years... and just a few years later, did it again, with much less planning, because they weren't pushing enough copies out the doors every month. That's where you get your spaghetti continuity from.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:04 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is only going to get worse now that Marvel is in the movie business.
I wish. Take, for instance, Teen Titans. In both TV incarnations, it's a wholly superior product to the warmed over disco-in-the-80's of the original comics. New 52 would seem like an ideal time to take that star power to the DCU! Nope. Instead of inserting the charming and relatable animated Starfire into mainstream continuity, they doubled down on her Male Gaze and powers of Objectification. Disco never dies.
I don't mind movie or TV continuity reboots, so long as they're done well - the Batman and Spiderman franchises are the example of how to do it right. Superman, they've never figured out on the big screen, despite two or three tries at it - it just lacks the magic of the first three movies. On TV, tho, in the past quarter century, he's had two exceptionally solid adult dramas, a better than average kid's show in the '90s, and Justice League could arguably be slotted as a Superman show. I'll take quality over consistency. The comics editors should take note.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:04 AM on November 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
I wish. Take, for instance, Teen Titans. In both TV incarnations, it's a wholly superior product to the warmed over disco-in-the-80's of the original comics. New 52 would seem like an ideal time to take that star power to the DCU! Nope. Instead of inserting the charming and relatable animated Starfire into mainstream continuity, they doubled down on her Male Gaze and powers of Objectification. Disco never dies.
I don't mind movie or TV continuity reboots, so long as they're done well - the Batman and Spiderman franchises are the example of how to do it right. Superman, they've never figured out on the big screen, despite two or three tries at it - it just lacks the magic of the first three movies. On TV, tho, in the past quarter century, he's had two exceptionally solid adult dramas, a better than average kid's show in the '90s, and Justice League could arguably be slotted as a Superman show. I'll take quality over consistency. The comics editors should take note.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:04 AM on November 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
"It’s not just a matter of facts, it’s a matter of taste. For something that’s been created and enjoyed by so many different people over the years, the idea of continuity is something that’s weirdly personal. " Continuity and You by Chris Sims.
posted by lownote at 5:18 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by lownote at 5:18 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Nu52 is kind of the living counterpoint to the "superhero comics would be better if they dumped all continuity baggage" argument. Fraction's Hawkeye, on the other hand, shows that what makes them better is writing better comics.
As for deep continuity, the best attitude as writer and a reader is to pull from it what works with the story of the moment and ignore the rest.
posted by Artw at 5:19 AM on November 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
As for deep continuity, the best attitude as writer and a reader is to pull from it what works with the story of the moment and ignore the rest.
posted by Artw at 5:19 AM on November 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that Peanuts was rebooted early on, but no one noticed.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:29 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 5:29 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Somewhere a medieval scholar, surrounded by the fractured, broken and inconsistent mythologies of Beowolf or Gilgamesh or Jesus is smiling playfully.
In college, I had to write a number of short papers on several Hindu deities, all of whom had different and conflicting origin stories. That was the moment when, for me, inconsistent comics continuity stopped being a fly in the ointment and became another iteration of the natural course of generational storytelling.
posted by griphus at 5:31 AM on November 5, 2013 [9 favorites]
In college, I had to write a number of short papers on several Hindu deities, all of whom had different and conflicting origin stories. That was the moment when, for me, inconsistent comics continuity stopped being a fly in the ointment and became another iteration of the natural course of generational storytelling.
posted by griphus at 5:31 AM on November 5, 2013 [9 favorites]
and maybe a few people who think that the title is getting a fresh start, then realize that it's really the same old crap from the same old hacks and stop buying it. Same with the Ultimate versions and MAX versions and whatnot, which basically boil down to a subset of characters from the "main" continuity who get to swear and have sex more often.
Halloween Jack, I was about to get defensive when you started to discuss the Ultimate versions, but then you nailed it.
Also, seconding SAGA.
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:33 AM on November 5, 2013
Halloween Jack, I was about to get defensive when you started to discuss the Ultimate versions, but then you nailed it.
Also, seconding SAGA.
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:33 AM on November 5, 2013
Still just the one Watch... Oh, never mind.
posted by Artw at 5:40 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:40 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
The "problem" with multiple #1s and multiple versions of the same character, of course, is precisely that the two big comic companies don't really care about new people getting into their books, even though they periodically take stabs at drawing in new readers. The new #1s are done to bring in more sales from the existing fans,
If I have read correctly, Fantastic Four, FF and Captain Marvel are all getting reboots, new #1s.
Because it's been as year since the last one.
posted by Mezentian at 5:41 AM on November 5, 2013
If I have read correctly, Fantastic Four, FF and Captain Marvel are all getting reboots, new #1s.
Because it's been as year since the last one.
posted by Mezentian at 5:41 AM on November 5, 2013
I liked the DC Nu52 reboot, and I think it gives a perfect place for people to start reading. This especially in the context of Digital where it can be intimidating working how far back you need to go in order to not miss any ongoing / important events.
If articles I've read are true, then I'm not the only one to think this. DC sales have picked up after everything was rebooted with Nu52.
If we need a reboot every year, then so be it. I'll stop reading when it's no longer interesting to me. For now - I'm happy to buy the books I buy.
A lot of these conversations tend to devolve away from the subject at hand into the following:
- Urgh - Marvel and DC hate us all. It's just a cash cow for them. They're awful.
- The only good thing is Hawkeye. It's by Matt Faction. I mention his name because I'm a true fan.
- Have you read Saga? It's a middling series by an independent publisher. So it must be good. Because it's by an independent. At my heart, I'm just a hipster with a comic book. Did I tell you I like it a lot. Have you heard of it? You probably haven't.
- No - I couldn't tell you the saga babies name. Yes. I still remember the names of all 500 Flashes.
- My favourite bit of DC is Teen Titans / Wonder Woman / Brave and the Bold / JLA Animated (Delete as required). I wish all of DC was like Teen Titans / Wonder Woman / Brave and the Bold / JLA Animated (Delete as required). Then DC would be good again. DC don't listen to me. Because they're idiots. And they hate us all.
posted by zoo at 6:22 AM on November 5, 2013
If articles I've read are true, then I'm not the only one to think this. DC sales have picked up after everything was rebooted with Nu52.
If we need a reboot every year, then so be it. I'll stop reading when it's no longer interesting to me. For now - I'm happy to buy the books I buy.
A lot of these conversations tend to devolve away from the subject at hand into the following:
- Urgh - Marvel and DC hate us all. It's just a cash cow for them. They're awful.
- The only good thing is Hawkeye. It's by Matt Faction. I mention his name because I'm a true fan.
- Have you read Saga? It's a middling series by an independent publisher. So it must be good. Because it's by an independent. At my heart, I'm just a hipster with a comic book. Did I tell you I like it a lot. Have you heard of it? You probably haven't.
- No - I couldn't tell you the saga babies name. Yes. I still remember the names of all 500 Flashes.
- My favourite bit of DC is Teen Titans / Wonder Woman / Brave and the Bold / JLA Animated (Delete as required). I wish all of DC was like Teen Titans / Wonder Woman / Brave and the Bold / JLA Animated (Delete as required). Then DC would be good again. DC don't listen to me. Because they're idiots. And they hate us all.
posted by zoo at 6:22 AM on November 5, 2013
It's Hazel.
And the new series to wax lyrical about is SEX CRIMINALS.
Or possibly PRETTY DEADLY.
posted by Artw at 6:28 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
And the new series to wax lyrical about is SEX CRIMINALS.
Or possibly PRETTY DEADLY.
posted by Artw at 6:28 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
To be honest I stopped reading floppies a long time ago; reading trades has the double advantage of a) better knowledge of which series actually is any good and b) not so much reboot/new number 1 malarky.
As for Saga, I'll raise you with Prophet and especially Glory, which is as radical a reinvention of an old, crappy Liefeld (but I repeat myself) superhero as Prophet but has only gotten a tenth of the hype. Two volumes, 25 bucks buys you a complete story, so come on. Where else are you going to see a really bulked up Wonder Woman standin solving crimes with the Lost Generation's writers in Paris in the 1920ties, or have her have a long life romance with basically Etta Candy?
posted by MartinWisse at 6:29 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
As for Saga, I'll raise you with Prophet and especially Glory, which is as radical a reinvention of an old, crappy Liefeld (but I repeat myself) superhero as Prophet but has only gotten a tenth of the hype. Two volumes, 25 bucks buys you a complete story, so come on. Where else are you going to see a really bulked up Wonder Woman standin solving crimes with the Lost Generation's writers in Paris in the 1920ties, or have her have a long life romance with basically Etta Candy?
posted by MartinWisse at 6:29 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I tell you what I *would* drop to make comics more comprehensible - all the big event crossovers, or at least a majority of them.
posted by Artw at 6:34 AM on November 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:34 AM on November 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I dunno: if Saga is middling, then I want to hear about the things that are supposedly really good. I mean, seriously, I haven't loved a comic that much since the last Astro City. And if that makes me a hipster it'll surprise my cool friends.
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:39 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:39 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
comics:religion::sports:war
it's all just for fun and profit now, kids! you can always play in your own backyard!
posted by es_de_bah at 6:40 AM on November 5, 2013
it's all just for fun and profit now, kids! you can always play in your own backyard!
posted by es_de_bah at 6:40 AM on November 5, 2013
My comic of choice just started a feud with JMS, so that's nice.
posted by Artw at 6:45 AM on November 5, 2013
posted by Artw at 6:45 AM on November 5, 2013
As for Saga, I'll raise you with Prophet and especially Glory, which is as radical a reinvention of an old, crappy Liefeld
Prophet is just unreadable to me. I pick it up, read a page or two and go "uh." Then I put it down. I am perfectly happy to accept that this is me, not the comic. However, you make me really want to look for Glory next time I'm in a comic shop. That sounds awesome.
One thing that has kept me from Marvel in recent years is that I find the basic house art style really ugly. It's busy without being fun to look at and glossy without being polished. It looks to me like a weird evolution of the Liefeld style (with better anatomy, to be fair).
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Prophet is just unreadable to me. I pick it up, read a page or two and go "uh." Then I put it down. I am perfectly happy to accept that this is me, not the comic. However, you make me really want to look for Glory next time I'm in a comic shop. That sounds awesome.
One thing that has kept me from Marvel in recent years is that I find the basic house art style really ugly. It's busy without being fun to look at and glossy without being polished. It looks to me like a weird evolution of the Liefeld style (with better anatomy, to be fair).
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Prophet is just unreadable to me. I pick it up, read a page or two and go "uh." Then I put it down.
Prophet is one of my favorite comics of the last five years or so but, yeah, comprehensibility is not one of its strong suits by far.
Also, is the Marvel house style you're referring to the really flat traced-photograph look? Because ugh.
posted by griphus at 7:06 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Prophet is one of my favorite comics of the last five years or so but, yeah, comprehensibility is not one of its strong suits by far.
Also, is the Marvel house style you're referring to the really flat traced-photograph look? Because ugh.
posted by griphus at 7:06 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Greg Land doesn't draw EVERYTHING.
posted by Artw at 7:09 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:09 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Suske & Wiske, Robbedoes,
Both recently rebooted.
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
posted by Pendragon at 7:35 AM on November 5, 2013
Both recently rebooted.
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
posted by Pendragon at 7:35 AM on November 5, 2013
Greg Land doesn't draw anything, really.
"Hey, lemme ask you something. If somebody draws something, and you draw, like, right on top of it without going outside the original designated art, what do you call that?"
posted by entropicamericana at 7:37 AM on November 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
"Hey, lemme ask you something. If somebody draws something, and you draw, like, right on top of it without going outside the original designated art, what do you call that?"
posted by entropicamericana at 7:37 AM on November 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
Saga is middling? That's crazy talk. I guess it's due for some backlash, given how it has been universally praised, but it's universally praised for a reason.
I always recommend Morning Glories and Manhattan Projects in these threads.
posted by painquale at 7:59 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I always recommend Morning Glories and Manhattan Projects in these threads.
posted by painquale at 7:59 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I find Morning Glories just about impossible to follow. All of the characters look identical barring hair color, and throw in multiple dimensions (maybe?), time travel (I guess?), secret identities, body swapping, and the lucidity of Lost meets TimeCube, and I'm pretty well lost.
Totally agreeing with Prophet, Manhattan Projects, Hawkeye, and pretty much everything else mentioned in this thread, though.
posted by themadthinker at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Totally agreeing with Prophet, Manhattan Projects, Hawkeye, and pretty much everything else mentioned in this thread, though.
posted by themadthinker at 8:32 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fraction's Hawkeye, on the other hand, shows that what makes them better is writing better comics.
Yes. There's not a single editorial strategy that beats, "Hire a great writer, a great artist, and don't screw up their story with crossovers."
posted by straight at 8:35 AM on November 5, 2013
Yes. There's not a single editorial strategy that beats, "Hire a great writer, a great artist, and don't screw up their story with crossovers."
posted by straight at 8:35 AM on November 5, 2013
Not even "MOAR BIG SHOULDER PADS AND POUCHES?"
posted by entropicamericana at 8:41 AM on November 5, 2013
posted by entropicamericana at 8:41 AM on November 5, 2013
Hawkeye is too hipster for me to be honest. The mundane adventures of a slacker superhero and his not quite girlfriend. And dog.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:42 AM on November 5, 2013
posted by MartinWisse at 8:42 AM on November 5, 2013
Also if there are people here who enjoyed Hawkeye and haven't read Fraction/Brubaker/Aja's run on Iron Fist, do. It's very different but very good.
posted by griphus at 8:43 AM on November 5, 2013
posted by griphus at 8:43 AM on November 5, 2013
I recently read Doctor 13: Architecture and Mortality, featuring Dr. 13 (paranormal investigator who doesn't believe in the paranormal), his daughter Traci 13 (sorcerer), Das Primate Patrol (nazi gorillas), Anthro (the first Cro-Magnon), Infectious Lass (rejected by even the Legion of Super-Heroes), Genius Jones (boy genius character created by Alfred freaking Bester in 1942), the ghost of Confederate general J.E.B. Stuart, and others of DC's goofiest characters in a surreal adventure featuring mysterious villains called The Architects.
The reveal is that the architects are Greg Rucka, Mark Waid, Geoff Johns, and Grant Morrison, the architects of New 52 universe, and the characters are fighting for survival against the demands of the new continuity.
In perhaps a too-honest moment, they say they'll keep Traci 13 because she's a hot half-Asian chick.
It's actually a fun book, so, hey, the New 52 was good for that.
posted by Zed at 8:44 AM on November 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
The reveal is that the architects are Greg Rucka, Mark Waid, Geoff Johns, and Grant Morrison, the architects of New 52 universe, and the characters are fighting for survival against the demands of the new continuity.
In perhaps a too-honest moment, they say they'll keep Traci 13 because she's a hot half-Asian chick.
It's actually a fun book, so, hey, the New 52 was good for that.
posted by Zed at 8:44 AM on November 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
However, you make me really want to look for Glory next time I'm in a comic shop. That sounds awesome.
Fair warning; it also has a lot of this.
But it's quietly queer friendly, the main character is a black teenage girl who dreams of Glory's adventures and gets hints of a troubling future, it has a demonic sidekick medic called Henry who collects old cameras and Ross Campbell's art is at least as good as Fiona Staples' art on Saga, just as good in inventing great looking, bizarre characters and brilliant facial expressions.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:50 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Fair warning; it also has a lot of this.
But it's quietly queer friendly, the main character is a black teenage girl who dreams of Glory's adventures and gets hints of a troubling future, it has a demonic sidekick medic called Henry who collects old cameras and Ross Campbell's art is at least as good as Fiona Staples' art on Saga, just as good in inventing great looking, bizarre characters and brilliant facial expressions.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:50 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I recently read Doctor 13: Architecture and Mortality
Yeah, fun book, but ultimately indulging in the same cynicism and metaphysics it's railing against. Not really a 52 book though, as it came out a couple of years before that.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:52 AM on November 5, 2013
Yeah, fun book, but ultimately indulging in the same cynicism and metaphysics it's railing against. Not really a 52 book though, as it came out a couple of years before that.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:52 AM on November 5, 2013
(and the speculators who don't understand that the bottom of the comics collecting market has basically dropped out)
I've got a couple hundred comics from the mid-80's and early 70's individually wrapped in mylar sitting on a top shelf in my bedroom closet. I've thought about taking them down and re-reading them, but I've avoided doing so because I thought they might be valuable. I guess that's not a real concern now? Having electronic versions to download has caused a market crash?
posted by Thoughtcrime at 8:54 AM on November 5, 2013
I've got a couple hundred comics from the mid-80's and early 70's individually wrapped in mylar sitting on a top shelf in my bedroom closet. I've thought about taking them down and re-reading them, but I've avoided doing so because I thought they might be valuable. I guess that's not a real concern now? Having electronic versions to download has caused a market crash?
posted by Thoughtcrime at 8:54 AM on November 5, 2013
Those comics in your basement? Probably worthless.
Only really really rare key comics (Action #1, Amazing Fantasy 15) are really worth much. Run of the mill Silver Age, let alone anything later than that? You're lucky to get much more than a buck a piece, if that.
posted by MartinWisse at 9:01 AM on November 5, 2013
Only really really rare key comics (Action #1, Amazing Fantasy 15) are really worth much. Run of the mill Silver Age, let alone anything later than that? You're lucky to get much more than a buck a piece, if that.
posted by MartinWisse at 9:01 AM on November 5, 2013
Yes. There's not a single editorial strategy that beats, "Hire a great writer, a great artist, and don't screw up their story with crossovers."
I'd like to point out that Marvel's Avengers movie is a crossover, and it's full-on awesome. When done well, and with lots of preparation and planning, crossovers are the highlight of mainstream comics reading.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:06 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'd like to point out that Marvel's Avengers movie is a crossover, and it's full-on awesome. When done well, and with lots of preparation and planning, crossovers are the highlight of mainstream comics reading.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:06 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Not really a 52 book though, as it came out a couple of years before that.
Yeah, you're right. It came out during the publication of the weekly 52 series, which was longer ago before the New 52 than I was remembering. Infinite Crisis/52/Final Crisis/Flashpoint/New 52... somehow it's all become a blur.
posted by Zed at 9:18 AM on November 5, 2013
Yeah, you're right. It came out during the publication of the weekly 52 series, which was longer ago before the New 52 than I was remembering. Infinite Crisis/52/Final Crisis/Flashpoint/New 52... somehow it's all become a blur.
posted by Zed at 9:18 AM on November 5, 2013
Thoughtcrime: Having electronic versions to download has caused a market crash?
No, it started way before that. I'd attribute it to the rise of the direct sales market and dedicated comics stores, which not only gave collectors a place to buy back issues but also to sell them, and to buy the boards and bags to better preserve their collections. Your early seventies books--published before the above became true, and also when comics were published on newsprint--might do well, if they're in good condition.
Zed: Ironically, Waid and Rucka, who have not only done some of their best work at DC but also done some of the best work that's come out of DC in the last decade and a half or so (Waid's Kingdom Come may be the third most important graphic novel that DC has ever published, after TDKR and Watchmen), have pretty much said that they won't be working for DC any more, at least for the foreseeable future, because of the new regime and how it treats creators in general and has treated them in particular.
zoo: gosh, where to start?
I liked the DC Nu52 reboot, and I think it gives a perfect place for people to start reading. Well, except for Green Lantern and Batman, because their continuity wasn't rebooted, because Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison are favored over just about everybody else at DC.
DC sales have picked up after everything was rebooted with Nu52. Well, they were pretty shitty before that, and there's been a lot of questions about those sales figures--whether they represent comics actually sold, or simply the amount ordered by shops.
- The only good thing is Hawkeye. It's by Matt Faction. I mention his name because I'm a true fan. You respond to other people knocking books that you like by knocking books that they like? Way to elevate the debate.
- No - I couldn't tell you the saga babies name. Yes. I still remember the names of all 500 Flashes. Because obviously the only thing to get out of a book is grist for a trivia contest. And, of course, the various Flashes had a hell of a head start, including appearing in books other than their own.
DC don't listen to me. Because they're idiots. And they hate us all. No, they're obviously geniuses, because nobody gets promoted to their level of incompetence, especially in comics. Jim Lee, who ran his own comics company into the ground (despite contributions by the likes of Warren Ellis and Alan Moore, who Lee thoroughly alienated despite Moore being very clear about what he expected out of their professional relationship), is exactly who you'd want as a co-publisher. Things are going to be great, and never mind all the creators who consider New 52 DC to be the equivalent of Jim Shooter's Marvel.
Look, if you like the way that DC is doing things, bully for you! You've got probably at least a few years to enjoy it. If, however, a new regime comes in and changes everything again, feel free to use some of the talking points that you've mocked here. It's cool.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:37 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
No, it started way before that. I'd attribute it to the rise of the direct sales market and dedicated comics stores, which not only gave collectors a place to buy back issues but also to sell them, and to buy the boards and bags to better preserve their collections. Your early seventies books--published before the above became true, and also when comics were published on newsprint--might do well, if they're in good condition.
Zed: Ironically, Waid and Rucka, who have not only done some of their best work at DC but also done some of the best work that's come out of DC in the last decade and a half or so (Waid's Kingdom Come may be the third most important graphic novel that DC has ever published, after TDKR and Watchmen), have pretty much said that they won't be working for DC any more, at least for the foreseeable future, because of the new regime and how it treats creators in general and has treated them in particular.
zoo: gosh, where to start?
I liked the DC Nu52 reboot, and I think it gives a perfect place for people to start reading. Well, except for Green Lantern and Batman, because their continuity wasn't rebooted, because Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison are favored over just about everybody else at DC.
DC sales have picked up after everything was rebooted with Nu52. Well, they were pretty shitty before that, and there's been a lot of questions about those sales figures--whether they represent comics actually sold, or simply the amount ordered by shops.
- The only good thing is Hawkeye. It's by Matt Faction. I mention his name because I'm a true fan. You respond to other people knocking books that you like by knocking books that they like? Way to elevate the debate.
- No - I couldn't tell you the saga babies name. Yes. I still remember the names of all 500 Flashes. Because obviously the only thing to get out of a book is grist for a trivia contest. And, of course, the various Flashes had a hell of a head start, including appearing in books other than their own.
DC don't listen to me. Because they're idiots. And they hate us all. No, they're obviously geniuses, because nobody gets promoted to their level of incompetence, especially in comics. Jim Lee, who ran his own comics company into the ground (despite contributions by the likes of Warren Ellis and Alan Moore, who Lee thoroughly alienated despite Moore being very clear about what he expected out of their professional relationship), is exactly who you'd want as a co-publisher. Things are going to be great, and never mind all the creators who consider New 52 DC to be the equivalent of Jim Shooter's Marvel.
Look, if you like the way that DC is doing things, bully for you! You've got probably at least a few years to enjoy it. If, however, a new regime comes in and changes everything again, feel free to use some of the talking points that you've mocked here. It's cool.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:37 AM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Comics are so action-filled, and require so many characters to keep that action going strong, that continuity is bound to be affected. When the peripheral characters change, the storyline alters, but once you start getting into the big guns, chaos ensues.
I was a big Thor fan when I was young, which I've mentioned here before, and now with Tom Hiddleston playing Loki (to perfection!) in the movies, the fangirl inside me has reawakened. I haven't read the comics since way back when they first killed off Sif and then made Jane Foster channel her entity or whatever the hell that was, though. We're talking ages here.
I'd like to start reading comics again on my iPad (heard good things). Will I be totally lost if I try to pick up Thor again now? I feel like there is only so much they can do, with Asgard and Norse mythology as a starting point, but maybe I am just naive?
posted by misha at 9:47 AM on November 5, 2013
I was a big Thor fan when I was young, which I've mentioned here before, and now with Tom Hiddleston playing Loki (to perfection!) in the movies, the fangirl inside me has reawakened. I haven't read the comics since way back when they first killed off Sif and then made Jane Foster channel her entity or whatever the hell that was, though. We're talking ages here.
I'd like to start reading comics again on my iPad (heard good things). Will I be totally lost if I try to pick up Thor again now? I feel like there is only so much they can do, with Asgard and Norse mythology as a starting point, but maybe I am just naive?
posted by misha at 9:47 AM on November 5, 2013
Thor: The Mighty Avenger was a really, really fun recent reboot that's light-hearted and requires no previous knowledge. (There have been a whole bunch of Thor-ish comics since that I don't know anything about...)
posted by Zed at 9:53 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Zed at 9:53 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you are a Thor fan you should check out the current, "Thor: God of Thunder."
posted by anansi at 11:54 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by anansi at 11:54 AM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
For extra fun track down the Pre-Marvel NOW run of Journey into Mystery by Kieron Gillen, staring Kid Loki. It's amazing. Also deftly avoids being derailed by crossovers by being the secret history of whatever crossover is going on.
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on November 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'd like to point out that Marvel's Avengers movie is a crossover
Not exactly, not in the comic book sense we were complaining about. It's a standalone work that builds on a bunch of other standalone works, but it's existence doesn't mean that Captain America or Iron Man 3 have to stop telling the story they were telling partway through and tell the story of Avengers Assemble for a bit.
posted by Artw at 12:15 PM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Not exactly, not in the comic book sense we were complaining about. It's a standalone work that builds on a bunch of other standalone works, but it's existence doesn't mean that Captain America or Iron Man 3 have to stop telling the story they were telling partway through and tell the story of Avengers Assemble for a bit.
posted by Artw at 12:15 PM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
He’s also Ronin and Goliath and Clint Barton. Sometimes he’s dead. Oh, and by the way: he started as a villain.
While you're thinking of M*A*S*H this is very hard to follow.
posted by Twang at 4:20 PM on November 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
While you're thinking of M*A*S*H this is very hard to follow.
posted by Twang at 4:20 PM on November 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I was a big Thor fan when I was young, which I've mentioned here before, and now with Tom Hiddleston playing Loki (to perfection!) in the movies, the fangirl inside me has reawakened.
I'd like to start reading comics again on my iPad (heard good things). Will I be totally lost if I try to pick up Thor again now? I feel like there is only so much they can do, with Asgard and Norse mythology as a starting point, but maybe I am just naive?
J. Michael Straczynski has proved to be a total tool, but his work on Thor is his best work, and he defined the modern take on the character. He provided the model that everyone else has been working from, including the Marvel movieverse. On Comixology, you can try out the two 'Thor by J. Michael Straczynski' volumes (the second volume is a really cool Loki story), or check out individual issues of the 'Thor Vol. 3' run. It transitions into a bunch of Kieron Gillen issues afterward that are also really good.
posted by painquale at 5:53 PM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd like to start reading comics again on my iPad (heard good things). Will I be totally lost if I try to pick up Thor again now? I feel like there is only so much they can do, with Asgard and Norse mythology as a starting point, but maybe I am just naive?
J. Michael Straczynski has proved to be a total tool, but his work on Thor is his best work, and he defined the modern take on the character. He provided the model that everyone else has been working from, including the Marvel movieverse. On Comixology, you can try out the two 'Thor by J. Michael Straczynski' volumes (the second volume is a really cool Loki story), or check out individual issues of the 'Thor Vol. 3' run. It transitions into a bunch of Kieron Gillen issues afterward that are also really good.
posted by painquale at 5:53 PM on November 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
the speculators who don't understand that the bottom of the comics collecting market has basically dropped out
All of the comics in my collection are from after the era in which everybody started saving the comics that they bought, and are therefore valueless in the secondary market.
We finished construction on our house within two weeks of the beginning of the housing market crash, and ended up being the only house on a cul-de-sac for quite a few years while the buider/developer waiting for the money to come back.
In both cases, the "crash" got me all worried, and then I realized that I was pretty much ok because I'd bought the comics to read and re-read, and the house to live in. The status of the market only matters if you intend to buy or sell.
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:56 AM on November 6, 2013
All of the comics in my collection are from after the era in which everybody started saving the comics that they bought, and are therefore valueless in the secondary market.
We finished construction on our house within two weeks of the beginning of the housing market crash, and ended up being the only house on a cul-de-sac for quite a few years while the buider/developer waiting for the money to come back.
In both cases, the "crash" got me all worried, and then I realized that I was pretty much ok because I'd bought the comics to read and re-read, and the house to live in. The status of the market only matters if you intend to buy or sell.
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:56 AM on November 6, 2013
At the risk of a derail, I really enjoyed the talk. For ease of clicking, the bit.ly link at the bottom right of the interactions cloud goes here.
posted by curious.jp at 5:12 AM on November 6, 2013
posted by curious.jp at 5:12 AM on November 6, 2013
This isn't my DC any more. Not because I object to the current comics being published, but because you can have a John Constantine/Billy Batson crossover without making the central feature of the crossover the clash in tones between the protagonists. The DC I remember fondly ranged from Impulse on the funny and Young Justice on the charming end of the spectrum to Hellblazer's blackness and Hitman as the GrimDerp. Not that I mind GrimDerp. I enjoyed Hitman. And The Authority (under Warren Ellis). Now it's all GrimDerp pitched at 40-somethings with a lot of money, so they are all selling - but there's only one core audience.
(OK, Vertigo and Wildstorm were imprints not in core continuity. Your point?)
And comics, especially the big ones (Batman, Superman, Captain America, Spider Man, the X-Men) are modern mythology. Adam West Batman is not Christian Bale Batman. But both are recognisable as Batman in the same way that Zeus is still recognisable as Zeus in different myths. Continuity's for the purist and myths are never pure.
posted by Francis at 7:34 AM on November 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
(OK, Vertigo and Wildstorm were imprints not in core continuity. Your point?)
And comics, especially the big ones (Batman, Superman, Captain America, Spider Man, the X-Men) are modern mythology. Adam West Batman is not Christian Bale Batman. But both are recognisable as Batman in the same way that Zeus is still recognisable as Zeus in different myths. Continuity's for the purist and myths are never pure.
posted by Francis at 7:34 AM on November 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Isn't the simple answer that the refusal of continuity we see in Batman is the real solution to the whole DC universe?
Let writers and artists tell stories together, don't expect the same stories to be in effect from one writer to the next, and then see how many comics that sells. I'd bet it's more than the continuity/crossover/crisis model.
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:39 AM on November 6, 2013
Let writers and artists tell stories together, don't expect the same stories to be in effect from one writer to the next, and then see how many comics that sells. I'd bet it's more than the continuity/crossover/crisis model.
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:39 AM on November 6, 2013
Do monthly comics make money at all? From what I understand, they're basically (poorly) subsidized playgrounds for artists and writers to come up with the plots and aesthetics that are then turned into movies, TV shows and merchandise.
posted by griphus at 9:57 AM on November 6, 2013
posted by griphus at 9:57 AM on November 6, 2013
Er, monthly superhero comics from DC and Marvel, specifically.
posted by griphus at 9:58 AM on November 6, 2013
posted by griphus at 9:58 AM on November 6, 2013
/puts away cricket bat.
posted by Artw at 10:22 AM on November 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:22 AM on November 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
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