Because you need more in life than love.
October 30, 2014 8:29 AM Subscribe
Love is not Enough is a fantastic breakdown why Love, as many people imagine it, is not all that is needed for a healthy relationship. It then provides realistic suggestions as to what you do need when choosing a partner.
Just because:
All You Need is Love
Love is Not Enough
Just because:
All You Need is Love
Love is Not Enough
Oh my goodness, yes.
And many abusers do think they love their partners; they just have a warped view of what love entails.
posted by jaguar at 8:57 AM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
And many abusers do think they love their partners; they just have a warped view of what love entails.
posted by jaguar at 8:57 AM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
The most important realization of my life.
Having said that, while love isn't sufficient, it's hard to overstate how necessary it is. I'm the undeserving recipient of pretty much every form of privilege that it is possible to heap on a human being, but I do consider my greatest advantage in life to be having loved and been loved by some really remarkable people. I have friends who have overcome emotional setbacks that would have otherwise been insurmountable on the strength of that one advantage. Conversely, I've met people who I strongly suspect have never been loved in a healthy fashion by anyone, ever, and all of the other advantages in the world aren't going to make them ok.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:59 AM on October 30, 2014 [19 favorites]
Having said that, while love isn't sufficient, it's hard to overstate how necessary it is. I'm the undeserving recipient of pretty much every form of privilege that it is possible to heap on a human being, but I do consider my greatest advantage in life to be having loved and been loved by some really remarkable people. I have friends who have overcome emotional setbacks that would have otherwise been insurmountable on the strength of that one advantage. Conversely, I've met people who I strongly suspect have never been loved in a healthy fashion by anyone, ever, and all of the other advantages in the world aren't going to make them ok.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:59 AM on October 30, 2014 [19 favorites]
Read the first paragraph and just stopped. I understand now that John Lennon was an a**hole. Thanks, I am enlightened. Good luck fledgling self-help guru on your career and to quote Ace Ventura - "All-righty then. Bye now. Bye-bye."
posted by McMillan's Other Wife at 8:59 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by McMillan's Other Wife at 8:59 AM on October 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
And many abusers do think they love their partners; they just have a warped view of what love entails.
Oh definitely. I think what I tried to say was that their actions do not demonstrate love, so whatever words or justifications they put on them are irrelevant. I was taking issue with the idea that "love was not enough" by pointing out that actual love was missing, if abuse is taking place.
posted by emjaybee at 9:05 AM on October 30, 2014
Oh definitely. I think what I tried to say was that their actions do not demonstrate love, so whatever words or justifications they put on them are irrelevant. I was taking issue with the idea that "love was not enough" by pointing out that actual love was missing, if abuse is taking place.
posted by emjaybee at 9:05 AM on October 30, 2014
Oh man. True as can be.
My best friend in the world is a remarkable woman -- intelligent, successful, educated, lovely, and with a heart as big as the sky... and hugely attracted to abusive assholes. He current beau dictates what she eats, where she goes, whom she is allowed to talk to, belittles her, and arranges her daily schedule so tightly that if she spends ten minutes stuck in traffic she has to account for her whereabouts. In the two years they have been together, the extent of our spending time together has been a half dozen workday lunches on the Q.T. He dumps her regularly, and she spends the weekend at home alone crying because she "cannot take the pain." Come Sunday night he calls her and invites her over, and she rushes to accept. I have even -- in the spirit of amity -- invited them both along to large events. She always has to decline: she says it would be impossible for her to relax if he and I were in the same room, and it is unthinkable that she socialize without him there to keep an eye on her.
Months ago they met some friends for dinner and one of them told a story about having been backstage at Soundgarden show; she then showed of selfie of her and Chris Cornell. My friend, to be polite, looked and said "cool," then passed back the phone. Hours later this was a huge fight about her "ogling Chris Cornell."
She tells me lengthy tales about his feuds with his ex-wife, his domineering diktats to his teenage son, and his arrogance to his coworkers, which usually end with, "but he is a good man." Lately she has been told she is moving in with him, but he does not like cats, so she has to get rid of hers. She love these cats, and describes herself as heartbroken. I remind her that five years ago the previous abusive asshole decided to move in with her and had her get rid of her two previous cats. She tells me this is totally different; this is her decision to move. But Brutus in an honourable man.
As best I can tell, everyone in her family and among her friends tells her the guy is toxic, but it always comes back to four words: "but I love him."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:09 AM on October 30, 2014 [28 favorites]
My best friend in the world is a remarkable woman -- intelligent, successful, educated, lovely, and with a heart as big as the sky... and hugely attracted to abusive assholes. He current beau dictates what she eats, where she goes, whom she is allowed to talk to, belittles her, and arranges her daily schedule so tightly that if she spends ten minutes stuck in traffic she has to account for her whereabouts. In the two years they have been together, the extent of our spending time together has been a half dozen workday lunches on the Q.T. He dumps her regularly, and she spends the weekend at home alone crying because she "cannot take the pain." Come Sunday night he calls her and invites her over, and she rushes to accept. I have even -- in the spirit of amity -- invited them both along to large events. She always has to decline: she says it would be impossible for her to relax if he and I were in the same room, and it is unthinkable that she socialize without him there to keep an eye on her.
Months ago they met some friends for dinner and one of them told a story about having been backstage at Soundgarden show; she then showed of selfie of her and Chris Cornell. My friend, to be polite, looked and said "cool," then passed back the phone. Hours later this was a huge fight about her "ogling Chris Cornell."
She tells me lengthy tales about his feuds with his ex-wife, his domineering diktats to his teenage son, and his arrogance to his coworkers, which usually end with, "but he is a good man." Lately she has been told she is moving in with him, but he does not like cats, so she has to get rid of hers. She love these cats, and describes herself as heartbroken. I remind her that five years ago the previous abusive asshole decided to move in with her and had her get rid of her two previous cats. She tells me this is totally different; this is her decision to move. But Brutus in an honourable man.
As best I can tell, everyone in her family and among her friends tells her the guy is toxic, but it always comes back to four words: "but I love him."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:09 AM on October 30, 2014 [28 favorites]
John Lennon did not believe that 'All You Need is Love' (that was a throwaway song he dashed off for a TV show).
The brainless media-friendly 'love' stuff we associate with 70s Lennon came from Yoko, who was born rich, while Lennon was overtly political to the extent of running up a huge file with the FBI while hanging out with Marxist revolutionaries and doing benefit gigs for the Black Panthers.
posted by colie at 9:11 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
The brainless media-friendly 'love' stuff we associate with 70s Lennon came from Yoko, who was born rich, while Lennon was overtly political to the extent of running up a huge file with the FBI while hanging out with Marxist revolutionaries and doing benefit gigs for the Black Panthers.
posted by colie at 9:11 AM on October 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
I now have that Don Henley-Patty Smyth duet running thru my head.
posted by jonmc at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2014
posted by jonmc at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2014
Nothing you can say, but you can learn
How to play the game
Nothing you can do, but you can learn
How to be you in time
Trent Reznor ... "got clean from all drugs and alcohol, married one woman, had two children with her, and then cancelled entire albums and tours so that he could stay home and be a good husband and father."
Lessons were learned.
posted by mysticreferee at 9:28 AM on October 30, 2014
How to play the game
Nothing you can do, but you can learn
How to be you in time
Trent Reznor ... "got clean from all drugs and alcohol, married one woman, had two children with her, and then cancelled entire albums and tours so that he could stay home and be a good husband and father."
Lessons were learned.
posted by mysticreferee at 9:28 AM on October 30, 2014
"All that “I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved” was me. I used to be cruel to my woman, and physically — any woman. I was a hitter. I couldn’t express myself and I hit. I fought men and I hit women. That is why I am always on about peace, you see. It is the most violent people who go for love and peace. Everything’s the opposite. But I sincerely believe in love and peace. I am not violent man who has learned not to be violent and regrets his violence. I will have to be a lot older before I can face in public how I treated women as a youngster." -- John Lennon's last interview with Playboy.
posted by symbioid at 9:47 AM on October 30, 2014 [14 favorites]
posted by symbioid at 9:47 AM on October 30, 2014 [14 favorites]
You don’t see many people teaching you how to love yourself while dropping F-bombs and referencing their favorite heavy metal bands.
I think I read this guy's book: "How to annoy everyone in the world by being a patronizing douchebag."
posted by nerdler at 9:49 AM on October 30, 2014 [15 favorites]
I think I read this guy's book: "How to annoy everyone in the world by being a patronizing douchebag."
posted by nerdler at 9:49 AM on October 30, 2014 [15 favorites]
Yeeeah, the point is a good one ultimately (no matter how you feel about someone, if your relationship with them is hurting one or both of you then something has to change or it has to end), but the way he goes about it is kind of shitty and occasionally super offensive (as emjaybee pointed out already). Comes off as kind of broey, like, "fshyeah you like your girlfriend man but she's got you, like, TOTES whipped -- also be careful because she might be A BISEXUAL"
I also wish our culture would a) consider polyamory as a healthy alternative for those who are less inclined to be monogamous and b) focus a little more on conflict management and personal growth as opposed to the "trading-up" mentality I see happening a lot in my generation. I get that partly it has to do with a relaxation of perceived dating/marriage guidelines; I can't help but feel like it's also a symptom of this sort of selfish Gen Y ennui that makes roadblocks to true human connection seem like insurmountable dead-ends. There's getting out of a damaging relationship that's slogged on for too long, and then there's dropping someone because relationships are work and you've hit a point you both need to work on.
(And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that I just got dumped, shut up, this is the Internet, my experiences are universally communicable)
posted by Mooseli at 9:57 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I also wish our culture would a) consider polyamory as a healthy alternative for those who are less inclined to be monogamous and b) focus a little more on conflict management and personal growth as opposed to the "trading-up" mentality I see happening a lot in my generation. I get that partly it has to do with a relaxation of perceived dating/marriage guidelines; I can't help but feel like it's also a symptom of this sort of selfish Gen Y ennui that makes roadblocks to true human connection seem like insurmountable dead-ends. There's getting out of a damaging relationship that's slogged on for too long, and then there's dropping someone because relationships are work and you've hit a point you both need to work on.
(And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that I just got dumped, shut up, this is the Internet, my experiences are universally communicable)
posted by Mooseli at 9:57 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't go so far as calling Lennon "overtly political," seeing as I can't bring to mind any specific political views he consistently held.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by overeducated_alligator at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh definitely. I think what I tried to say was that their actions do not demonstrate love, so whatever words or justifications they put on them are irrelevant. I was taking issue with the idea that "love was not enough" by pointing out that actual love was missing, if abuse is taking place.
I think you may be muddying the waters here.
Love is something that can vary over time, yes? So it would be legit to say that an abuser doesn't really love the person they are abusing when the abuse is taking place, but also say that love is present in the relationship (at most times).
But aside from that, telling a person in an abusive relationship that their partner doesn't really love them seems like the sort of thing that would make them stop listening to you. So I think you'd do better by accepting that there's love there but it isn't the healthy kind.
posted by LogicalDash at 10:28 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think you may be muddying the waters here.
Love is something that can vary over time, yes? So it would be legit to say that an abuser doesn't really love the person they are abusing when the abuse is taking place, but also say that love is present in the relationship (at most times).
But aside from that, telling a person in an abusive relationship that their partner doesn't really love them seems like the sort of thing that would make them stop listening to you. So I think you'd do better by accepting that there's love there but it isn't the healthy kind.
posted by LogicalDash at 10:28 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
When we believe that “all we need is love,” then like Lennon, we’re more likely to ignore fundamental values such as respect, humility and commitment towards the people we care about ... But if, like Reznor, we believe that “love is not enough,” then we understand that healthy relationships require more than pure emotion or lofty passions.Submitted for further discussion: Is love stronger than pride? Is it better than ice cream? Is it thicker than water? Is is bigger than baseball?
posted by octobersurprise at 11:55 AM on October 30, 2014
Love is a battlefield.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 11:59 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by overeducated_alligator at 11:59 AM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
What an annoying writer. Yes, love is enough.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
(And with that coming from both sides, you don't have a good relationshi)
Maybe writing a song about love is not enough, but the author doesn't seem to have that depth to distinguish what between song lyrics and love.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:00 PM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails.
(And with that coming from both sides, you don't have a good relationshi)
Maybe writing a song about love is not enough, but the author doesn't seem to have that depth to distinguish what between song lyrics and love.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:00 PM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm a firm believer that love is not enough: you need patience and determination and stamina to make a relationship work.
I've always detested John Lennon's early 70's Ono-fueled babblings about love and peace, so it was a healing experience to encounter Frank Zappa's response to "All You Need is Love."
posted by oozy rat in a sanitary zoo at 12:11 PM on October 30, 2014
I've always detested John Lennon's early 70's Ono-fueled babblings about love and peace, so it was a healing experience to encounter Frank Zappa's response to "All You Need is Love."
posted by oozy rat in a sanitary zoo at 12:11 PM on October 30, 2014
I think some of the best life advice comes from people who aren't being paid to give you advice (in other words, people who aren't trying to break into the "self-help market").
He has some good points though. "Would you let your best friend treat you this way?" is a good question to ask oneself in a relationship and one I hadn't thought of before. I think a lot of our perspective on relationships comes from the family relationships we were raised with, with people we didn't get to choose. Behavior you might accept from a friend versus that you might accept from a family member can be worlds apart for some people. And for me at least, the adage about "what would you tell your friend if they were in this situation?" didn't work, because I would have told them they deserve a hell of a lot more than I do because they are not me.
However, does one need love? Is it necessary, like the author states? I have thought about this myself a lot. I am one of those people who has probably not been loved in a healthy fashion by much of anyone, and it has made my life a lot harder at times than it needs to be. I have come to view love as not something that is stable or solid. Love is ephemeral and abstract, something you get in small doses, something you can give in small doses. Love can be friendships, love can be small kindnesses, love can be the beauty of nature, of words, of art. It is a low bar that my life, or anyone's life really, can meet. For a long time, I was really distressed by the fact that pretty much anyone who ever claimed to love me also felt it was okay to be abusive towards me and then something changed and I just decided to let those people go. Or more, it became unbearable that their presence in my life said to them their behavior was acceptable.
There is a saying that says "we accept the love we think we deserve." It is unfortunate that there is such a strong emphasis on family togetherness in our society and on romantic relationships. Sometimes one might feel they have to keep those relationships intact to be socially acceptable, no matter how painful they are. I am now mostly estranged from my parents and enjoy my life alone and have come to enjoy the peacefulness I have found. I wish I would have been able to cast aside the common definitions of love a lot sooner.
I have long felt that if you have not had a lot of love in your life, you can go one of two ways about it -- you can let hate and anger and resentment rule your life or you can try to find another way. As a young kid, I was at times mean and spiteful and aggressive, with a lot of resentment, and sometimes acted in ways I am not particularly proud of looking back on those moments as an adult. Life didn't make any sense, I knew the ways I was being treated were wrong but didn't understand why it had to be that way, why everyone else seemed to think it was okay. I was always a voracious reader and as a teenager, by which time my anger had receded into a deep depression, I read a lot to try and understand the "whys". I still do, but never as passionately as then. I am thankful for my interest in reading because it probably saved me. If not for all the lofty ideas and philosophical musings of Camus and Marcus Aurelius and Dostoevsky I would probably be dead by suicide by now. It may sound like hyperbole but it is not -- they were pretty much my only companions in facing what was to me great pain and injustice, the only souls who could give me direction at the time.
There are a lot of people who are not fortunate enough to find another way. And that's what it is -- it's pure luck, a lottery. They are eaten up by drugs, violence, gangs, bad relationships, jail, mistakes. This world is an unjust one. I don't think everyone needs love, but they need "something". They need an ideal, a place, a dream, a home, a passion. And if they don't have one, they have nothing. And their spirit slowly leaves this world, in one way or another, perhaps before their bodies, and, still, the world keeps turning.
posted by sevenofspades at 12:14 PM on October 30, 2014 [9 favorites]
He has some good points though. "Would you let your best friend treat you this way?" is a good question to ask oneself in a relationship and one I hadn't thought of before. I think a lot of our perspective on relationships comes from the family relationships we were raised with, with people we didn't get to choose. Behavior you might accept from a friend versus that you might accept from a family member can be worlds apart for some people. And for me at least, the adage about "what would you tell your friend if they were in this situation?" didn't work, because I would have told them they deserve a hell of a lot more than I do because they are not me.
However, does one need love? Is it necessary, like the author states? I have thought about this myself a lot. I am one of those people who has probably not been loved in a healthy fashion by much of anyone, and it has made my life a lot harder at times than it needs to be. I have come to view love as not something that is stable or solid. Love is ephemeral and abstract, something you get in small doses, something you can give in small doses. Love can be friendships, love can be small kindnesses, love can be the beauty of nature, of words, of art. It is a low bar that my life, or anyone's life really, can meet. For a long time, I was really distressed by the fact that pretty much anyone who ever claimed to love me also felt it was okay to be abusive towards me and then something changed and I just decided to let those people go. Or more, it became unbearable that their presence in my life said to them their behavior was acceptable.
There is a saying that says "we accept the love we think we deserve." It is unfortunate that there is such a strong emphasis on family togetherness in our society and on romantic relationships. Sometimes one might feel they have to keep those relationships intact to be socially acceptable, no matter how painful they are. I am now mostly estranged from my parents and enjoy my life alone and have come to enjoy the peacefulness I have found. I wish I would have been able to cast aside the common definitions of love a lot sooner.
I have long felt that if you have not had a lot of love in your life, you can go one of two ways about it -- you can let hate and anger and resentment rule your life or you can try to find another way. As a young kid, I was at times mean and spiteful and aggressive, with a lot of resentment, and sometimes acted in ways I am not particularly proud of looking back on those moments as an adult. Life didn't make any sense, I knew the ways I was being treated were wrong but didn't understand why it had to be that way, why everyone else seemed to think it was okay. I was always a voracious reader and as a teenager, by which time my anger had receded into a deep depression, I read a lot to try and understand the "whys". I still do, but never as passionately as then. I am thankful for my interest in reading because it probably saved me. If not for all the lofty ideas and philosophical musings of Camus and Marcus Aurelius and Dostoevsky I would probably be dead by suicide by now. It may sound like hyperbole but it is not -- they were pretty much my only companions in facing what was to me great pain and injustice, the only souls who could give me direction at the time.
There are a lot of people who are not fortunate enough to find another way. And that's what it is -- it's pure luck, a lottery. They are eaten up by drugs, violence, gangs, bad relationships, jail, mistakes. This world is an unjust one. I don't think everyone needs love, but they need "something". They need an ideal, a place, a dream, a home, a passion. And if they don't have one, they have nothing. And their spirit slowly leaves this world, in one way or another, perhaps before their bodies, and, still, the world keeps turning.
posted by sevenofspades at 12:14 PM on October 30, 2014 [9 favorites]
Lennon is not very good on consistency, but then he was a young man in a crazy situation (and also out of it on acid and smack quite a lot), but he was certainly 'political'. In his own words in an interview with Robin Blackburn and Tariq Ali of 'Red Mole':
"But I was always political in a way, you know. In the two books I wrote, even though they were written in a sort of Joycean gobbledegook, there's many knocks at religion and there is a play about a worker and a capitalist. I've been satirising the system since my childhood."
It's his anger and wit that is the antidote to pure Yoko 'love' vibes.
posted by colie at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2014
"But I was always political in a way, you know. In the two books I wrote, even though they were written in a sort of Joycean gobbledegook, there's many knocks at religion and there is a play about a worker and a capitalist. I've been satirising the system since my childhood."
It's his anger and wit that is the antidote to pure Yoko 'love' vibes.
posted by colie at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2014
I do see the point the author is trying to make - that love is not enough to make a relationship work. But to me it depends completely on one's definition of love. I especially feel that lust and love are two very separate things that are frequently conflated in romantic relationships.
I would even offer the opinion that in abusive / unhappy relationships there are other issues gong on that overshadow or end up stamping out any glimmerings of love. To say "love is not enough" is all well and good but I don't know how much the phrase will help the mistreated partner(s) understand the unhealthy dynamic they are involved in. For example, people stay in bad relationships due to lack of self esteem, financial insecurity, or the fear of severe penalties from their culture should they leave etc. There are really practical considerations behind what seems to outsiders very irrational pairings. "Love is not enough", but living on the streets penniless because you are completely financially and/or socially dependent on your partner is "not enough" of a reason to leave.
I would also venture an unpopular opinion and I guess it makes me sound very hard hearted. But I feel love boils down to mutual respect... Okay, when I was a teen my friends and I loved quoting Bon Jovi... "True love is suicide"... But realistically true love is respect in its most sincere and caring aspect. If you love someone (and have options to leave safely), you would not stay with them if they repeatedly mistreated you, because it is enabling the behaviour, and due to the codependent nature of such relationships it shows a lack of respect for all parties involved. Sometimes the only way individuals grow to become better people is when those who love them put their foot down and kindly but firmly refuse to accept excuses. I know in reality it doesn't always result in a happy ending, but love is wanting the best for your partner even if it means they can no longer be with you.
That said, this was a great post because it got me thinking about all these things. Thank you quin. And thanks metafilter readers for enduring my stream of consciousness rambling :)
posted by partly squamous and partly rugose at 1:53 PM on October 30, 2014
I would even offer the opinion that in abusive / unhappy relationships there are other issues gong on that overshadow or end up stamping out any glimmerings of love. To say "love is not enough" is all well and good but I don't know how much the phrase will help the mistreated partner(s) understand the unhealthy dynamic they are involved in. For example, people stay in bad relationships due to lack of self esteem, financial insecurity, or the fear of severe penalties from their culture should they leave etc. There are really practical considerations behind what seems to outsiders very irrational pairings. "Love is not enough", but living on the streets penniless because you are completely financially and/or socially dependent on your partner is "not enough" of a reason to leave.
I would also venture an unpopular opinion and I guess it makes me sound very hard hearted. But I feel love boils down to mutual respect... Okay, when I was a teen my friends and I loved quoting Bon Jovi... "True love is suicide"... But realistically true love is respect in its most sincere and caring aspect. If you love someone (and have options to leave safely), you would not stay with them if they repeatedly mistreated you, because it is enabling the behaviour, and due to the codependent nature of such relationships it shows a lack of respect for all parties involved. Sometimes the only way individuals grow to become better people is when those who love them put their foot down and kindly but firmly refuse to accept excuses. I know in reality it doesn't always result in a happy ending, but love is wanting the best for your partner even if it means they can no longer be with you.
That said, this was a great post because it got me thinking about all these things. Thank you quin. And thanks metafilter readers for enduring my stream of consciousness rambling :)
posted by partly squamous and partly rugose at 1:53 PM on October 30, 2014
Look, I was in an abusive relationship and one of the main reasons I stayed was because I loved my partner and I thought I could help him get over his demons. Yes, it was codependent, but so is love in so many other situations.
I feel like some of you are doing a "No True Scotsman" bit here with redefining "love." "Love" in many many many situations is not 100% perfectly healthy and wonderful and happy. Many people actually feel actual love in really shitty relationships.
posted by jaguar at 2:38 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
I feel like some of you are doing a "No True Scotsman" bit here with redefining "love." "Love" in many many many situations is not 100% perfectly healthy and wonderful and happy. Many people actually feel actual love in really shitty relationships.
posted by jaguar at 2:38 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
I loved my abuser and my abuser loved me. He didn't love me like an equal; he loved me like a child loves a teddy bear. It was still love. I didn't love him the way a healthy partner loves her significant other, I loved him the way a puppy dog loves her owner. Just because it wasn't "healthy" love does not mean it wasn't "real" love.
posted by sockermom at 3:16 PM on October 30, 2014
posted by sockermom at 3:16 PM on October 30, 2014
The author has no definition of love and if he does, it's seriously wrong.
posted by koavf at 3:52 PM on October 30, 2014
posted by koavf at 3:52 PM on October 30, 2014
Love is never enough for a relationship. There are all sorts of things that are needed for a healthy relationship: will, thoughfulness, compatibility, mutuality, respect, etc. All of those things can be absent when we love someone. One of the biggest factors in any successful relationship, I've found, is logistics. You and your partner both need to be versed in skills of keeping each other together and healthy, supplied and fulfilled. There are some things that you just can't love into place, just like there are some things you can't will into place, Green Lantern style.
So, while love is certainly necessary in any healthy relationship, it isn't sufficient by itself.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:12 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
So, while love is certainly necessary in any healthy relationship, it isn't sufficient by itself.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 4:12 PM on October 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
That article basically ticked off every hard truth I've had to come to grips with in relationships. I never like when the love between people is belittled just because a relationship was a mess or ended or you're a teenager or whatever. You can absolutely totally and fully be in love and be loved by someone that is totally wrong for you in a relationship that has no hope of going the distance. That's the painful truth. Love isn't magic. Relationships are hard. Most don't work out. It doesn't mean you didn't love each other.
posted by whoaali at 8:56 PM on October 30, 2014
posted by whoaali at 8:56 PM on October 30, 2014
"[Trent] married one woman, had two children with her, and then cancelled entire albums and tours so that he could stay home and be a good husband and father"
Yeah, that John Lennon asshole would never do something like this.
Also, colie, Yoko was also at all those meetings, and was making serious political art when Lennon was still writing exclusively about girls he wanted to fuck.
posted by chairmanroflmao at 9:28 PM on October 30, 2014
Yeah, that John Lennon asshole would never do something like this.
Also, colie, Yoko was also at all those meetings, and was making serious political art when Lennon was still writing exclusively about girls he wanted to fuck.
posted by chairmanroflmao at 9:28 PM on October 30, 2014
Not wishing to go fighty on John vs Yoko, and I do respect her work, but Lennon had produced his wild satirical poems and drawings from the age of 7 or 8, and even his earliest Beatles songs include lyric and musical explorations of consciousness (e.g. 'There's a Place') when indeed other pop stars only sang about girls they wanted to fuck and used the same old chords to do so.
He also, upon maturing, did exactly what Reznor did 20 years later and took five years out of his job to raise his son and be a home maker.
posted by colie at 2:32 AM on October 31, 2014
He also, upon maturing, did exactly what Reznor did 20 years later and took five years out of his job to raise his son and be a home maker.
posted by colie at 2:32 AM on October 31, 2014
Windom Earle: Your name, please?
Major Briggs: Garland Briggs.
Windom Earle: Garland, what do you fear most... in the world?
Major Briggs: The possibility that love is not enough.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:39 AM on October 31, 2014
Major Briggs: Garland Briggs.
Windom Earle: Garland, what do you fear most... in the world?
Major Briggs: The possibility that love is not enough.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:39 AM on October 31, 2014
« Older Tim Cook - I'm Proud to be Gay | IN ANY CONVERSATION YOU ARE ALSO DEALING WITH AN... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
"acid-dropping bisexual necrophiliac" what.
I mean, he makes good points, though I would argue that he doesn't define "love" really well. You can be in love with an abuser, but they are not treating you with love, so in fact there is a lack of love there. It's not love at fault, in the abstract.
Got curious about this guy, who is apparently a self-help guru. Here is a Forbes interview with him.
Schawbel: How have you stood out in the self-help world and carved out your own niche?
Manson: Self Help is a notoriously crowded market, but I believe that I’ve successfully differentiated myself in a few ways. For one, most demographic data shows that millennials think/act/see the world differently, and I don’t think there’s much personal development stuff out there that caters to millennial attitudes and experiences very well. Secondly, there are a lot of people who are interested in improving themselves and their lives but aren’t interested in all of the fluffy, touchy-feely positivity stuff that comes along with your generic self help material. They find it to be inauthentic and prefer a more practical, research-based approach. And finally, I think I inject a bit more personality than most in the niche. You don’t see many people teaching you how to love yourself while dropping F-bombs and referencing their favorite heavy metal bands.
posted by emjaybee at 8:55 AM on October 30, 2014 [3 favorites]