Again, Christopher Priest put it best: “Hire some actual black people.”
November 30, 2014 5:10 AM Subscribe
This was not built to last, and as such, these are not changes that disrupt business as usual. The most bigoted fan can go about their Cap- and Thor-loving life largely untroubled by these events, save for a little message board mayhem, and thus these are not changes I care about. Because that’s a large part of the point of writing characters who aren’t straight white dudes: disruption. Making change that cannot be ignored by those who wish they could.Juliet Kahn isn't impressed by a black Captain America or a female Thor and wants the comics industry to move beyond such gimmicks and promote real change.
There's also the matter that superhero comics aren't the only comics, and women and people of color are doing great work at the edges of, or entirely outside superhero comics. Gene Yang's The Shadow Hero is a pulp/superhero comic with an Chinese-American protagonist (and he touches on superhero-y ideas a bit in Boxers/Saints and American Born Chinese. Brennan Lee Mulligan and Molly Ostertag's Strong Female Protagonist just keeps getting better as a web comic (and the first collected volume has been released).
I suspect that many non white- cis- straight- male comic creators will choose to go the web comic and self-publishing route to get out from under editorial control and write/draw the stories they want to tell rather than create properties for the large companies to sell to an audience that will remain white, cis, straight, and male.
I've told this story before, but I used to meet a guy at library conferences who worked for Tokyo Pop. He was a huge Marvel fan, and he knew people in both Marvel and DC and met with them frequently at trade shows. They they would always complain about not being able to get women (and to a lesser degree, non-white) readers. "They just don't want to read comics" the Marvel/DC guys would say. "Women and people of color read Tokyo Pop comics," my contact would say, "you just need to tell stories those audiences want to read." The Marvel/DC guys would always look at him blankly. My contact was not a particularly progressive guy, but he loved comics, and he saw that there was a clear connection between the stories and the audience, and the major comics industry does not have a great track record of supporting editors who support writers who want to tell stories for any audience but the most dependable. And, without that, I don't think there will be major lasting change.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:01 AM on November 30, 2014 [21 favorites]
I suspect that many non white- cis- straight- male comic creators will choose to go the web comic and self-publishing route to get out from under editorial control and write/draw the stories they want to tell rather than create properties for the large companies to sell to an audience that will remain white, cis, straight, and male.
I've told this story before, but I used to meet a guy at library conferences who worked for Tokyo Pop. He was a huge Marvel fan, and he knew people in both Marvel and DC and met with them frequently at trade shows. They they would always complain about not being able to get women (and to a lesser degree, non-white) readers. "They just don't want to read comics" the Marvel/DC guys would say. "Women and people of color read Tokyo Pop comics," my contact would say, "you just need to tell stories those audiences want to read." The Marvel/DC guys would always look at him blankly. My contact was not a particularly progressive guy, but he loved comics, and he saw that there was a clear connection between the stories and the audience, and the major comics industry does not have a great track record of supporting editors who support writers who want to tell stories for any audience but the most dependable. And, without that, I don't think there will be major lasting change.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:01 AM on November 30, 2014 [21 favorites]
I used to read DC and I don't anymore. They can throw a bone for a while when people get openly grumpy, but then slide back to their old ways. Why would a system change their ways when it keeps the status quo employed?
I do my own work with my own studio on my own and do not sink money into something that keeps me back. If you want something done, you do it yourself and don't support the things that work against you by giving it power or prestige...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 7:17 AM on November 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
I do my own work with my own studio on my own and do not sink money into something that keeps me back. If you want something done, you do it yourself and don't support the things that work against you by giving it power or prestige...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 7:17 AM on November 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
I haven't read a comic book in a couple decade (outside of taking a look at Harvey Pekar, I guess) but if I were to hear Junot Diaz had taken on a series I'd be tempted.
posted by mr. digits at 7:44 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mr. digits at 7:44 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Isn't Marvel currently making its black Captain America temporarily evil at the moment? I don't generally read comic books but I have a lot of friends who do. Lately I've been hearing some pretty angry commentary about placing Sam Wilson, another black character, and the Jewish Wanda Maximoff on the side of brainwashed evil in the current run, as placed up against a bunch of white dudes like Peter Parker and Steve Rogers on the side for good. I obviously haven't read the run itself, but people whose opinion I trust seem to be pretty aggravated lately.
Those friends have tried to recruit me to reading comics quite a bit over the last few years. I've always resisted, because literally everything I have heard out of Marvel and DC's politics is that I am not the target audience. And no matter how much my friends protest that there's good stuff there too, I see enough shit coming out from both Marvel and DC on such a regular basis that I'm really not inclined to get further involved. I'd rather invest in media that might, in theory, give a crap about attracting readers like me--not one which seems to be caught in an internal war between whether it should try to do that, or whether "not actively repelling people like you" is too much effort.
posted by sciatrix at 7:49 AM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Those friends have tried to recruit me to reading comics quite a bit over the last few years. I've always resisted, because literally everything I have heard out of Marvel and DC's politics is that I am not the target audience. And no matter how much my friends protest that there's good stuff there too, I see enough shit coming out from both Marvel and DC on such a regular basis that I'm really not inclined to get further involved. I'd rather invest in media that might, in theory, give a crap about attracting readers like me--not one which seems to be caught in an internal war between whether it should try to do that, or whether "not actively repelling people like you" is too much effort.
posted by sciatrix at 7:49 AM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
But it feels like a gimmick, and functions like a gimmick, and that’s because it is a gimmick.
This is exactly how I felt when I heard the announcement about Lady Thor and Sam as Cap.
posted by immlass at 8:13 AM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is exactly how I felt when I heard the announcement about Lady Thor and Sam as Cap.
posted by immlass at 8:13 AM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
There isn't just one thing holding mainstream comics back from greater diversity, in terms of the faces on their covers (creator diversity is a related issue, but not the same issue). But it's not that many things, either.
1. There's a certain percentage of fans who are racist and/or sexist, and these fans will never be happy with characters who fall outside of the established parameters, and they will be so unhappy they stop buying comics from the publisher. These fans are basically all male, mostly white, and much louder than they are numerous. I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of fans who are unhappy with change (of all kinds, like literally any change at all), but I am saying most of them wouldn't be so unhappy that they would stop buying comics from their favorite publisher. That shit is completely unthinkable. Paradigm-shattering. It won't happen. We're talking about the zombies in Dawn of the Dead who keep coming back to the mall: "It must have been a very important place in their lives." So this is a factor, but not the major one a lot of people have made it out to be.
2. There's a certain percentage of fans and creators who have a sentimental attachment to the "classic" versions of these characters. These are characters created at a time when virtually any character would be expected by default to be a white male. It is possible that attachment to these creations of a "simpler time" may reflect an unconscious (or even conscious, to a lesser or greater degree) yearning on the part of the fan/creator to return to what they imagine that time to have been. Which is to say, this may be basically some fucked up Mad Men bullshit. On some level. But on a level much closer to the surface, I think this is just a yearning to keep alive the cherished figures of one's childhood. Who all, like, happened to be white guys. An issue? Yeah.
3. And it dovetails with the big issue, which is that almost no new completely new characters have been added to the rosters of mainstream publishers in decades, and they won't be, because almost no creators will create new characters under the auspices of a work-for-hire employment situation. So to have a black character who is of the same stature as Captain America, you have to have a black Captain America; to have a woman who is of the same stature as Thor, Thor has to become a woman. Refer to point 2. These changes cannot be permanent without pissing off people who want the "classic" version of the character around. It's a different argument than "I want the white guy," even if what it ultimately means is you want the white guy. The only way to appease those people and have greater diversity is to create entirely new characters, but no one wants to create them if they can't own their creations. At present: You cannot have a new character who is the equivalent of a black Captain America in prominence because no one is creating new characters for a mainstream publisher.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:16 AM on November 30, 2014 [32 favorites]
1. There's a certain percentage of fans who are racist and/or sexist, and these fans will never be happy with characters who fall outside of the established parameters, and they will be so unhappy they stop buying comics from the publisher. These fans are basically all male, mostly white, and much louder than they are numerous. I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of fans who are unhappy with change (of all kinds, like literally any change at all), but I am saying most of them wouldn't be so unhappy that they would stop buying comics from their favorite publisher. That shit is completely unthinkable. Paradigm-shattering. It won't happen. We're talking about the zombies in Dawn of the Dead who keep coming back to the mall: "It must have been a very important place in their lives." So this is a factor, but not the major one a lot of people have made it out to be.
2. There's a certain percentage of fans and creators who have a sentimental attachment to the "classic" versions of these characters. These are characters created at a time when virtually any character would be expected by default to be a white male. It is possible that attachment to these creations of a "simpler time" may reflect an unconscious (or even conscious, to a lesser or greater degree) yearning on the part of the fan/creator to return to what they imagine that time to have been. Which is to say, this may be basically some fucked up Mad Men bullshit. On some level. But on a level much closer to the surface, I think this is just a yearning to keep alive the cherished figures of one's childhood. Who all, like, happened to be white guys. An issue? Yeah.
3. And it dovetails with the big issue, which is that almost no new completely new characters have been added to the rosters of mainstream publishers in decades, and they won't be, because almost no creators will create new characters under the auspices of a work-for-hire employment situation. So to have a black character who is of the same stature as Captain America, you have to have a black Captain America; to have a woman who is of the same stature as Thor, Thor has to become a woman. Refer to point 2. These changes cannot be permanent without pissing off people who want the "classic" version of the character around. It's a different argument than "I want the white guy," even if what it ultimately means is you want the white guy. The only way to appease those people and have greater diversity is to create entirely new characters, but no one wants to create them if they can't own their creations. At present: You cannot have a new character who is the equivalent of a black Captain America in prominence because no one is creating new characters for a mainstream publisher.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:16 AM on November 30, 2014 [32 favorites]
Isn't Marvel currently making its black Captain America temporarily evil at the moment?
Yep. Basically, right now there's the one where Sam Wilson is evil, and there's the one written by Rick Remender, who is pretty much a horrible person, so I'm not holding out a lot of hope for that one either.
posted by dorque at 8:46 AM on November 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yep. Basically, right now there's the one where Sam Wilson is evil, and there's the one written by Rick Remender, who is pretty much a horrible person, so I'm not holding out a lot of hope for that one either.
posted by dorque at 8:46 AM on November 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
DC and Marvel (or should I say Warner and Disney) are not "the comics industry," and haven't been a relevant or influential force in the comics industry for a good twenty years now.
Stop buying their comics, stop talking about them (presence in discourse = cultural cachet), and especially stop going to their warmed-over movie adaptations (which is where they really make their money these days), and just let them die a quiet corporate death.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:23 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Stop buying their comics, stop talking about them (presence in discourse = cultural cachet), and especially stop going to their warmed-over movie adaptations (which is where they really make their money these days), and just let them die a quiet corporate death.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:23 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I heard about the Sam is evil subplot and wasn't super thrilled either (haven't read it yet cause I use Unlimited so I'm six months behind). I was excited about FalCap because there's a tradition of other people taking up the shield and frankly it seemed like his turn, but I totally get the disenchantment with it.
The more diverse stories in Marvel are really the best ones right now; Ultimate Spider-Man has gone way past the whole "just a race-bent version" thing and seems to be sticking around, at least in Ultimates-verse. Young Avengers was AMAZING; as a queer woman the whole thing where most of the team turns out to be queer instead of just one or two members was great, because in real life that totally happens. But there's a lot less mediocre shit in series about marginalized groups, it seems like-- YA was great because it had some really cool, dynamic storytelling stuff that really felt innovative; She-Hulk is exceptionally well drawn and smart; Hawkeye's ASL issue did newish stuff and did it in a way that was really cool. And the only things those really have in common is they're Marvel, they deal with marginalized groups and I think all their series have been cancelled.
posted by NoraReed at 10:31 AM on November 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
The more diverse stories in Marvel are really the best ones right now; Ultimate Spider-Man has gone way past the whole "just a race-bent version" thing and seems to be sticking around, at least in Ultimates-verse. Young Avengers was AMAZING; as a queer woman the whole thing where most of the team turns out to be queer instead of just one or two members was great, because in real life that totally happens. But there's a lot less mediocre shit in series about marginalized groups, it seems like-- YA was great because it had some really cool, dynamic storytelling stuff that really felt innovative; She-Hulk is exceptionally well drawn and smart; Hawkeye's ASL issue did newish stuff and did it in a way that was really cool. And the only things those really have in common is they're Marvel, they deal with marginalized groups and I think all their series have been cancelled.
posted by NoraReed at 10:31 AM on November 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
also yes please on the America Chavez solo series, preferably featuring Kate Bishop in the sidekick position
also please make them kiss
posted by NoraReed at 10:33 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
also please make them kiss
posted by NoraReed at 10:33 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I read comics for decades before I even considered reading any of the big Marvel/DC superhero comics. And even now, I'm only interested in the "diversity" titles like Ms. Marvel.
I know there is probably a big market of white gamer bro types who spend piles of cash on Captain America and the like, but there is a lot of other stuff out there, and I only recently ran into the idea that you have to be into Batman or whatever to truly grok comic books.
I'm just tired of yet another industry where the major players are viewing white male (straight?) consumers as the "real" market, while everyone else doesn't really count despite presumably spending as much money as the white guys.
posted by Sara C. at 11:38 AM on November 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
I know there is probably a big market of white gamer bro types who spend piles of cash on Captain America and the like, but there is a lot of other stuff out there, and I only recently ran into the idea that you have to be into Batman or whatever to truly grok comic books.
I'm just tired of yet another industry where the major players are viewing white male (straight?) consumers as the "real" market, while everyone else doesn't really count despite presumably spending as much money as the white guys.
posted by Sara C. at 11:38 AM on November 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
DC and Marvel (or should I say Warner and Disney) are not "the comics industry," and haven't been a relevant or influential force in the comics industry for a good twenty years now.
How do you figure? The most recent market-share charts I can find seem to show that DC and Marvel are nearly three quarters of the entire comics industry, measured in dollars as well as units. Either Marvel or DC by itself sells about as many comics as the rest of the industry combined.
Maybe they're not relevant or influential creatively, I won't dispute that. Certainly it's been more than 20 years since I bought a Marvel or DC comic book. But in terms of comics as an industry, well ... what am I missing?
posted by Mothlight at 11:56 AM on November 30, 2014 [7 favorites]
How do you figure? The most recent market-share charts I can find seem to show that DC and Marvel are nearly three quarters of the entire comics industry, measured in dollars as well as units. Either Marvel or DC by itself sells about as many comics as the rest of the industry combined.
Maybe they're not relevant or influential creatively, I won't dispute that. Certainly it's been more than 20 years since I bought a Marvel or DC comic book. But in terms of comics as an industry, well ... what am I missing?
posted by Mothlight at 11:56 AM on November 30, 2014 [7 favorites]
Just off the top of my head I'm wondering what, specifically is being measured in those pie charts. Are online subscriptions counted? Merch? Stuff related to movies and TV shows? Back catalog omnibus type stuff? Is this just single issues, or all comic book sales in all formats? What about literary graphic novels not put out by the big comic book houses? Manga?
posted by Sara C. at 12:09 PM on November 30, 2014
posted by Sara C. at 12:09 PM on November 30, 2014
How do you figure? The most recent market-share charts I can find seem to show that DC and Marvel are nearly three quarters of the entire comics industry, measured in dollars as well as units.
Because the source is Diamond, which serves comics shops, and the people who buy things other than superhero comics don't buy them at comics shops.
Because the source is Diamond, which serves comics shops, and the people who buy things other than superhero comics don't buy them at comics shops.
Middaugh says that a “substantial” number of Kodansha’s sales are coming through online bookstores, including Amazon and specialty retailers such as Right Stuf. Dark Horse’s Martens says that higher-priced books, such as omnibus editions that collect multiple volumes of a series, tended to sell better on Amazon, possibly because customers were looking for the online discount.posted by sukeban at 12:18 PM on November 30, 2014 [7 favorites]
Several high-profile titles, including Naruto, Bleach, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon, are also being carried by Walmart. Middaugh called Walmart “a key market” for Sailor Moon: “It’s not half of our sales, but it’s a good slice.”
Comics shops—the network of about 2,000 comics specialty shops around the country served by Diamond Comics Distributors—are a smaller piece of the picture. TakeViz Media, which is the biggest graphic novel publisher on BookScan, but has less than a 1% share of the comics retail market, a retail channel traditionally focused on selling the superhero comics category.
Just off the top of my head I'm wondering what, specifically is being measured in those pie charts.
These charts show what direct sales comics shops purchased from Diamond, which is the largest distributor of...well, that's the thing. Mainstream comics, mostly, by which people for the most part mean superhero comics. Publishers mentioned in the article include Boom!, Dark Horse, IDW, Image, Dynamite...comics companies that publish some superhero stuff, too. But even the stuff they publish that isn't superhero comics tends to be genre fiction. Mainstream comics are so tied to the superhero model that the idea of diversifying their subject matter usually breaks down to also doing sci-fi and crime comics. Anyway, you won't so much see here graphic novels published by book publishers, and you definitely won't see self-published work, webcomics, or even a lot of material from (for lack of a better term) big small presses. It's an article that shows that DC is outselling Marvel at comic book shops, which means to the larger world of comics what it would mean to the larger world of film that Universal is outselling Paramount.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:26 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
These charts show what direct sales comics shops purchased from Diamond, which is the largest distributor of...well, that's the thing. Mainstream comics, mostly, by which people for the most part mean superhero comics. Publishers mentioned in the article include Boom!, Dark Horse, IDW, Image, Dynamite...comics companies that publish some superhero stuff, too. But even the stuff they publish that isn't superhero comics tends to be genre fiction. Mainstream comics are so tied to the superhero model that the idea of diversifying their subject matter usually breaks down to also doing sci-fi and crime comics. Anyway, you won't so much see here graphic novels published by book publishers, and you definitely won't see self-published work, webcomics, or even a lot of material from (for lack of a better term) big small presses. It's an article that shows that DC is outselling Marvel at comic book shops, which means to the larger world of comics what it would mean to the larger world of film that Universal is outselling Paramount.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:26 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Isn't Marvel currently making its black Captain America temporarily evil at the moment?
Mighty Avengers has suffered multiple whacks from the crossover/event stick and born them quite well. Not having followed Axis I was a bit surprised by Jerk FalCap, and I would question it as an editorial choice for an opening issue, but it keeps to the high standard.
Best MA Sam Wilson line to date is "my name isn't 'and the Falcon'".
posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Mighty Avengers has suffered multiple whacks from the crossover/event stick and born them quite well. Not having followed Axis I was a bit surprised by Jerk FalCap, and I would question it as an editorial choice for an opening issue, but it keeps to the high standard.
Best MA Sam Wilson line to date is "my name isn't 'and the Falcon'".
posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
And it dovetails with the big issue, which is that almost no new completely new characters have been added to the rosters of mainstream publishers in decades, and they won't be, because almost no creators will create new characters under the auspices of a work-for-hire employment situation.
I suppose it depends on what "almost no" means, but I'd dispute that. Marvel has added some very interesting characters, particularly the younger ones. (Ms. Marvel, the Runaways, various young Avengers, etc.) They're not as well known, mainly because the top tier characters have had a handful of decades head start. However, the TV/movie side of the business can do a lot for vaulting characters ahead with "Guardians of the Galaxy" being the classic example. In a couple years everyone is going to know who Carol Danvers is. It wouldn't be a stretch for Kamala Khan to follow her.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:18 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I suppose it depends on what "almost no" means, but I'd dispute that. Marvel has added some very interesting characters, particularly the younger ones. (Ms. Marvel, the Runaways, various young Avengers, etc.) They're not as well known, mainly because the top tier characters have had a handful of decades head start. However, the TV/movie side of the business can do a lot for vaulting characters ahead with "Guardians of the Galaxy" being the classic example. In a couple years everyone is going to know who Carol Danvers is. It wouldn't be a stretch for Kamala Khan to follow her.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:18 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm heard that if you figure in digital Kamala Khan may actually outsell Carol Danvers.
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on November 30, 2014
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on November 30, 2014
I wouldn't be surprised, but it's impossible to know for sure.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:26 PM on November 30, 2014
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:26 PM on November 30, 2014
I suppose it depends on what "almost no" means, but I'd dispute that.
You can if you like. Ms. Marvel is a refurbished pre-existing property, and the Young Avengers are mostly derivative characters based on established properties. The Runaways characters are original from what I can glean, but again, "some" isn't "none."
There is little incentive for creators to create characters for mainstream publishers. I suspect that may change. Marvel is Disney, and Disney surely realizes that it would be problematic to keep recycling its princesses year after year without ever adding any new ones. My guess is that the big two will sooner or later figure out how to make creating new characters desirable for the creators.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:35 PM on November 30, 2014
You can if you like. Ms. Marvel is a refurbished pre-existing property, and the Young Avengers are mostly derivative characters based on established properties. The Runaways characters are original from what I can glean, but again, "some" isn't "none."
There is little incentive for creators to create characters for mainstream publishers. I suspect that may change. Marvel is Disney, and Disney surely realizes that it would be problematic to keep recycling its princesses year after year without ever adding any new ones. My guess is that the big two will sooner or later figure out how to make creating new characters desirable for the creators.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:35 PM on November 30, 2014
There is little incentive for creators to create characters for mainstream publishers.
Conversely, there is little incentive for mainstream publishers to introduce new characters from creators. It's all numbers, and like any business, the suits want something tried and true more than they want to gamble on something new and unproven. Until, of course, it becomes new and fantastic, at which time, copycats abound.
But catering to a minority market of any stripe is from a business pov a gamble for the large and lumbering. Or an opportunity for the small and nimble
For the numerically excited, comichron.com has all sorts of raw data on sales over the years.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:18 PM on November 30, 2014
Conversely, there is little incentive for mainstream publishers to introduce new characters from creators. It's all numbers, and like any business, the suits want something tried and true more than they want to gamble on something new and unproven. Until, of course, it becomes new and fantastic, at which time, copycats abound.
But catering to a minority market of any stripe is from a business pov a gamble for the large and lumbering. Or an opportunity for the small and nimble
For the numerically excited, comichron.com has all sorts of raw data on sales over the years.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:18 PM on November 30, 2014
sukeban, that quote you pulled is about manga sales in comic book stores. It's saying comic book stores are a smaller slice of the manga sales picture - in other words, most people buying manga are getting it from sources other than comic book stores.
It's great that manga sales in 2012 were $105 million - that's impressive, and certainly indicates a high level of popularity. But the total comics and graphic novels market in 2013 was $870 million in North America, including $340 million in comic book sales at comic stores alone, where Marvel and DC dominate sales.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 3:52 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's great that manga sales in 2012 were $105 million - that's impressive, and certainly indicates a high level of popularity. But the total comics and graphic novels market in 2013 was $870 million in North America, including $340 million in comic book sales at comic stores alone, where Marvel and DC dominate sales.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 3:52 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
No, it's definitely true that Marvel/DC's historically abysmal work-for-hire practices have caused a lot of their best talent to "hold back" or to split their attention between work-for-hire and their personal stuff -- although I think the relative lack of new properties has as much or more to do with already-crowded rosters and fandom (which then becomes creator) nostalgia meaning no straight white cis dude except Uncle Ben dies for good ever (that used to be "Uncle Ben and Bucky").
I also think it needs to be noted that while Guardians of the Galaxy went from decades of obscurity to breakout success, the major team members who got cut from the movie roster were the woman of color and the lesbian/bi couple.
On the other hand, one thing I see a lot of is people being reflexively dismissive* of legacy characters who aren't swcd's and it always makes me antsy because while there are very good reasons to be wary of and frustrated by the "need" to introduce new minority characters under the umbrella of another existing property, which I think the article notes effectively, there are many times that it comes off as a social justice-sanctioned gloss on being dismissive of characters who aren't swcd's. Like, having four Flashes gives the title a rich history to draw on, but She-Hulk is just an inferior female version of the Hulk.
The current Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel runs are interesting because both, especially the latter title, are deeply concerned with women being inspired by other women. Yes, technically Carol Danvers got her powers from the original Captain Marvel, but at this point he's a fondly remembered (and shockingly, still dead!) footnote. The real legacies of importance are the links between Helen Cobb and Carol, Monica and Carol, Carol and Kit, and now Carol and Kamala.
Another notable aspect about Ms. Marvel is that the character was co-created by the series editor, Sana Amanat, inspired by conversations she had with another editor about growing up as a Muslim American teen in New Jersey.
posted by bettafish at 4:02 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
I also think it needs to be noted that while Guardians of the Galaxy went from decades of obscurity to breakout success, the major team members who got cut from the movie roster were the woman of color and the lesbian/bi couple.
On the other hand, one thing I see a lot of is people being reflexively dismissive* of legacy characters who aren't swcd's and it always makes me antsy because while there are very good reasons to be wary of and frustrated by the "need" to introduce new minority characters under the umbrella of another existing property, which I think the article notes effectively, there are many times that it comes off as a social justice-sanctioned gloss on being dismissive of characters who aren't swcd's. Like, having four Flashes gives the title a rich history to draw on, but She-Hulk is just an inferior female version of the Hulk.
The current Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel runs are interesting because both, especially the latter title, are deeply concerned with women being inspired by other women. Yes, technically Carol Danvers got her powers from the original Captain Marvel, but at this point he's a fondly remembered (and shockingly, still dead!) footnote. The real legacies of importance are the links between Helen Cobb and Carol, Monica and Carol, Carol and Kit, and now Carol and Kamala.
Another notable aspect about Ms. Marvel is that the character was co-created by the series editor, Sana Amanat, inspired by conversations she had with another editor about growing up as a Muslim American teen in New Jersey.
posted by bettafish at 4:02 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ms. Marvel is a refurbished pre-existing property, and the Young Avengers are mostly derivative characters based on established properties.
Kamala Khan was certainly not a pre-existing property. I suppose you can make an argument for characters being 'derivative' but at this point it's nigh-impossible to create a superhero that isn't to some degree.
Now, the Big Two do seem stuck on superheroes, but other companies are offering much more diverse titles. They don't approach Marvel/DCs popularity though.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:02 PM on November 30, 2014
Kamala Khan was certainly not a pre-existing property. I suppose you can make an argument for characters being 'derivative' but at this point it's nigh-impossible to create a superhero that isn't to some degree.
Now, the Big Two do seem stuck on superheroes, but other companies are offering much more diverse titles. They don't approach Marvel/DCs popularity though.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:02 PM on November 30, 2014
Kamala Khan was certainly not a pre-existing property.
No, but Ms. Marvel is -- a trademark that Marvel had sitting around. Something had to be done with it, and while it's fantastic what they did do with it, it's a spin on an existing property.
I suppose you can make an argument for characters being 'derivative' but at this point it's nigh-impossible to create a superhero that isn't to some degree.
That's true in a broad, artistic sense, but I'm talking about characters that are literally the junior versions of existing characters, and could not be published by anyone other than a particular publisher without the risk of the creators getting sued. That is, The Flash may be derivative of mythological figure Mercury, but Kid Flash is derivative of The Flash in a way that means Kid Flash could not be published by Marvel Comics without a legal issue.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:24 PM on November 30, 2014
No, but Ms. Marvel is -- a trademark that Marvel had sitting around. Something had to be done with it, and while it's fantastic what they did do with it, it's a spin on an existing property.
I suppose you can make an argument for characters being 'derivative' but at this point it's nigh-impossible to create a superhero that isn't to some degree.
That's true in a broad, artistic sense, but I'm talking about characters that are literally the junior versions of existing characters, and could not be published by anyone other than a particular publisher without the risk of the creators getting sued. That is, The Flash may be derivative of mythological figure Mercury, but Kid Flash is derivative of The Flash in a way that means Kid Flash could not be published by Marvel Comics without a legal issue.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:24 PM on November 30, 2014
Ms. Marvel is -- a trademark that Marvel had sitting around.
So is your argument that creators don't want to establish new trademarks for the big companies?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:44 PM on November 30, 2014
So is your argument that creators don't want to establish new trademarks for the big companies?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:44 PM on November 30, 2014
Yeah, I got in a lot of trouble with some people on FB for being less than totally thrilled by Sam taking on Cap's mantle. Sam is just about the only person I can accept in that role (Carol could do it, except hello, she's Captain Marvel, and that's important, too). It's not the diversity that bugs me; I want more diversity, too. It's the obvious impermanence. Yes, I love Steve as Cap. I also love Sam as Falcon, and have since I was a little boy and saw that Sam was sometimes the only person who could straighten Steve out. And I'd much rather have seen Falcon get his own real push rather than see him given a new identity.
Identity changes and deaths in comics are almost never permanent. New stuff can be permanent. New characters can stay and make a lasting impact. Switching things around is just...temporary.
And, just as an aside, anyone who enjoys comics and isn't reading Ms. Marvel and IDW's Rat Queens is sorely, sadly missing out.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:45 PM on November 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Identity changes and deaths in comics are almost never permanent. New stuff can be permanent. New characters can stay and make a lasting impact. Switching things around is just...temporary.
And, just as an aside, anyone who enjoys comics and isn't reading Ms. Marvel and IDW's Rat Queens is sorely, sadly missing out.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:45 PM on November 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
So is your argument that creators don't want to establish new trademarks for the big companies?
I'm saying that effectively a character with the same name and a similar costume as the original version of a character is a tweak of that character. It's not really an original character. I know that the backstory of the character is vastly different. But as a property, this is a variation on an existing character.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:51 PM on November 30, 2014
I'm saying that effectively a character with the same name and a similar costume as the original version of a character is a tweak of that character. It's not really an original character. I know that the backstory of the character is vastly different. But as a property, this is a variation on an existing character.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:51 PM on November 30, 2014
Perspective is a fun thing. While I missed out on Ms. Marvel, I still remember buying the first issues of Spider-Woman and Savage She-Hulk at the corner store. They felt like gimmicks to this straight white pre-teen male back then, and they probably were. But here we are, at least 30 years later, and they are still around. Their popularity has come and gone (and, it should be pointed out, the popularity of Marvel's First Family has reached such a low point that their title is ending so it's not like being without a title is any indication of... anything, really), but Marvel continues to see value in them. They're solid members of the Marvel universe, and we could see a Hollywood depiction of at least one of them within 20 years. And if it sounds terrible that it would take 50 years before these characters got the big screen treatment, just remember it took Iron Man 45 years and Thor 49 years.
So yes, Miles Morales as Spider-Man, Sam Wilson as Cap, and a female Thor can be seen as gimmicks now, and it's likely they won't ever permanently replace the original versions. But I'm willing to bet that these characters will continue to exist, and be in comics, for years. We can have both.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 5:00 PM on November 30, 2014
So yes, Miles Morales as Spider-Man, Sam Wilson as Cap, and a female Thor can be seen as gimmicks now, and it's likely they won't ever permanently replace the original versions. But I'm willing to bet that these characters will continue to exist, and be in comics, for years. We can have both.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 5:00 PM on November 30, 2014
kfb, Church, I think the reason you're talking at cross-purposes is that one of you is using "character" to mean the superhero identity/trademarked property and the other to mean the backstory, i.e. the fictional person/people behind that identity. So, yes, the new Ms. Marvel is a tweak of the first Ms. Marvel, but Pakistani-American Muslim teen Kamala Khan who writes RPF fanfic about the Avengers is not a revamp of WASP-y Major Carol Danvers who... okay, technically she did publish sci-fi novels based off her time in space, but that's not really the same thing, surely.
posted by bettafish at 5:08 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bettafish at 5:08 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Young Avengers are derivative only enough to get people who know the existing characters to maybe get interested. The most recent one had the former Marvel Boy (who doesn't seem to be sticking around, but as he Done Wrong by Kate Bishop, the best character in Marvel of all time, I'm OK with that), Wiccan and Speed ("twin" "soul-children" of the Scarlet Witch), Hulkling (no actual relationship to the Hulk, actually a Kree/Skrull hybrid shapeshifter who just happens to kinda hulk out and look green when he's fighting), Miss America/America Chavez (who seems to be pretty much unrelated to the previous Miss America, who was, what, D-list? anyway), Hawkeye (Kate Bishop, not the Hawkguy), Kid Loki and Prodigy, whose backstory involves the X-Men. Only Hawkeye and Miss America are taking up old mantles (that is, the names of other heroes) and neither is really anything like their predecessor. The only one who's really a reboot of a classic character is Kid Loki, and in my opinion he's the only interesting thing about Asgard other than Volstagg.
It seems totally natural to me to have Sam Wilson taking up Cap's shield, and I'd be incredibly psyched to see that happen in the movies, because Anthony Mackie as Sam is the most charming thing to ever happen in the entire world; I would pay money to just watch him walk around smiling. (Also I think it would have a way more interesting dynamic than giving the shield to Bucky, like in the comics, because the broody way Sebastian Stan plays Bucky doesn't seem well-suited to team playing and the charming interactions of people on Team Cap is the best part of those movies. I would also be fine with a WidowCap.)
It's easy to write headlines about that kind of diversity push, because people know who Captain America is, whereas "diverse ensemble comic features interesting group of characters, many of whom are queer, fighting interesting battles; they also solve their relationship problems like adults and eat pancakes" is a bit harder to pack into a story. Panels end up circulating; you get great shit with Tumblr circulating, say, Prodigy coming out, but it seems like most people who write about comics aren't just gonna pull some awesome panels and let them speak for themselves. (This is a shame, because Prodigy doing tech support for heroes is one of the most hilarious bits I've ever read in a comic, and I feel like just reading that would get people to be like "ooo neat I'll pick up Young Avengers".
posted by NoraReed at 5:41 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
It seems totally natural to me to have Sam Wilson taking up Cap's shield, and I'd be incredibly psyched to see that happen in the movies, because Anthony Mackie as Sam is the most charming thing to ever happen in the entire world; I would pay money to just watch him walk around smiling. (Also I think it would have a way more interesting dynamic than giving the shield to Bucky, like in the comics, because the broody way Sebastian Stan plays Bucky doesn't seem well-suited to team playing and the charming interactions of people on Team Cap is the best part of those movies. I would also be fine with a WidowCap.)
It's easy to write headlines about that kind of diversity push, because people know who Captain America is, whereas "diverse ensemble comic features interesting group of characters, many of whom are queer, fighting interesting battles; they also solve their relationship problems like adults and eat pancakes" is a bit harder to pack into a story. Panels end up circulating; you get great shit with Tumblr circulating, say, Prodigy coming out, but it seems like most people who write about comics aren't just gonna pull some awesome panels and let them speak for themselves. (This is a shame, because Prodigy doing tech support for heroes is one of the most hilarious bits I've ever read in a comic, and I feel like just reading that would get people to be like "ooo neat I'll pick up Young Avengers".
posted by NoraReed at 5:41 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
That Dazzler pitch.
Worth noting that as soon as Gillen and McKelvie were done on Young Avengers they upped sticks and went to Image and created the crazy profusion of characters that is The Wicked + The Divine, which they own.
posted by Artw at 5:49 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Worth noting that as soon as Gillen and McKelvie were done on Young Avengers they upped sticks and went to Image and created the crazy profusion of characters that is The Wicked + The Divine, which they own.
posted by Artw at 5:49 PM on November 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
kfb, Church, I think the reason you're talking at cross-purposes is that one of you is using "character" to mean the superhero identity/trademarked property and the other to mean the backstory, i.e. the fictional person/people behind that identity.
Yep. It's cool that these versions of the characters are distinct, but however cool the characters themselves are, they're bounces from the original. It's not a criticism of a creator to say that, like, Hulkling wouldn't exist if Lee and Kirby had not first created The Hulk. It just is what it is.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:52 PM on November 30, 2014
Yep. It's cool that these versions of the characters are distinct, but however cool the characters themselves are, they're bounces from the original. It's not a criticism of a creator to say that, like, Hulkling wouldn't exist if Lee and Kirby had not first created The Hulk. It just is what it is.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:52 PM on November 30, 2014
FWIW I'm pretty sure Disney and the division of Marvel that is responsible for comic books have little to no contact. Disney has a lot of input on the MCU movies. ABC has a degree of input on Marvel's TV projects, though that is changing as ABC proves that it doesn't get Marvel properties at all (see for instance that embarrassing Agent Carter teaser). I'm fairly sure that Marvel comics and things like Disney Princess character development have zero interaction, or if there is any, it's as random as any other professional sharing of ideas ever is between any two companies that are tangentially similar to each other. It's not like the Marvel Comics folks are getting memos from the Disney Princess people on how to maximize new character development.
posted by Sara C. at 6:20 PM on November 30, 2014
posted by Sara C. at 6:20 PM on November 30, 2014
It's cool that these versions of the characters are distinct, but however cool the characters themselves are, they're bounces from the original. It's not a criticism of a creator to say that, like, Hulkling wouldn't exist if Lee and Kirby had not first created The Hulk. It just is what it is.
It's just not really that straightforward with a lot of these. Hulkling also kinda looks like The Thing sometimes, so maybe he'd still exist, but he'd just be Thingling. Or maybe not, because that is an absolutely TERRIBLE NAME, but with a boyfriend going by "Asgardian" (when he, uh, isn't) and then "Wiccan" (which he also isn't), maybe "coming up with good names" isn't high on your priority list. The name connection is there, and the character connection is there, but it's more just that they happen to inhabit the same universe. It's not like, say, Spider-Woman and Spider-Man, where one was kinda explicitly made from the other one, and it's not like the Hulkling-centered issues tend to have much to do with Bruce Banner.
Don't get me wrong, I get the gist of what you're saying, I just think that there's a lot of nuance in the interconnectedness of these characters. Hulkling isn't a straight (har, har) derivation of The Hulk; aside from taking his name he has very little to do with The Hulk and a lot to do with crazy interstellar wars involving the Skrull and the Kree, which is overcomplicated and generally best forgotten unless you're reading a story where that's a central point.
posted by NoraReed at 6:30 PM on November 30, 2014
It's just not really that straightforward with a lot of these. Hulkling also kinda looks like The Thing sometimes, so maybe he'd still exist, but he'd just be Thingling. Or maybe not, because that is an absolutely TERRIBLE NAME, but with a boyfriend going by "Asgardian" (when he, uh, isn't) and then "Wiccan" (which he also isn't), maybe "coming up with good names" isn't high on your priority list. The name connection is there, and the character connection is there, but it's more just that they happen to inhabit the same universe. It's not like, say, Spider-Woman and Spider-Man, where one was kinda explicitly made from the other one, and it's not like the Hulkling-centered issues tend to have much to do with Bruce Banner.
Don't get me wrong, I get the gist of what you're saying, I just think that there's a lot of nuance in the interconnectedness of these characters. Hulkling isn't a straight (har, har) derivation of The Hulk; aside from taking his name he has very little to do with The Hulk and a lot to do with crazy interstellar wars involving the Skrull and the Kree, which is overcomplicated and generally best forgotten unless you're reading a story where that's a central point.
posted by NoraReed at 6:30 PM on November 30, 2014
Young Avengers is basically the Teen Titans of the Marvel Universe.
posted by Artw at 7:00 PM on November 30, 2014
posted by Artw at 7:00 PM on November 30, 2014
It's just not really that straightforward with a lot of these. Hulkling also kinda looks like The Thing sometimes, so maybe he'd still exist, but he'd just be Thingling.
Calling them derivative is not a criticism of their quality or even their uniqueness; it is to say that they are derived from existing intellectual property. Perhaps it's more than one existing intellectual property. It doesn't matter. If you created Hulkling and tried to sell him to DC, you would have a problem. Because it's a derivative character. Anyway, I'm going to step away from this now, because I'm getting a headache and I think this is getting pretty far afield of the ostensible point of the article, which is actually really important and should be discussed.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:12 PM on November 30, 2014
Calling them derivative is not a criticism of their quality or even their uniqueness; it is to say that they are derived from existing intellectual property. Perhaps it's more than one existing intellectual property. It doesn't matter. If you created Hulkling and tried to sell him to DC, you would have a problem. Because it's a derivative character. Anyway, I'm going to step away from this now, because I'm getting a headache and I think this is getting pretty far afield of the ostensible point of the article, which is actually really important and should be discussed.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:12 PM on November 30, 2014
Young Avengers is basically the Teen Titans of the Marvel Universe.
Who were the New Mutants of the DC universe, who were the original Teen Titans of the Marvel Universe.
Everything's a remix.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:31 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Who were the New Mutants of the DC universe, who were the original Teen Titans of the Marvel Universe.
Everything's a remix.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:31 PM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
The New Mutants are sort of a different thing, representing a new generation of a team rather than a team made up of sidekicks and legacy characters.
posted by Artw at 6:44 AM on December 1, 2014
posted by Artw at 6:44 AM on December 1, 2014
Also wow are we, myself included, talking about a lot if comics by white people in the "hire some black people" thread. That is the nature of the problem, I guess.
posted by Artw at 7:11 AM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:11 AM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
kittens for breakfast,\
For what it's worth I was at a pre-NYCC event with Charles Soule and someone asked him directly if he would hold back a new property from Marvel to develop on his own. He said that no, while there are certainly considerations to be weighed, he had no problem giving Marvel new characters he might develop.
Of course that's not a binding oath or anything and he might have just been giving a pleasant fluff reply, but I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be.
Sara C. and the others who are trying to argue that Marvel and DC don't absolutely dominate US comic sales, you're going to need to produce some numbers to counter the ones given above because your position is absolutely nuts. There is no question that the Big 2 are, by far, the biggest part of the US comics market. I'd be really interested to see proof otherwise.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:01 AM on December 1, 2014
For what it's worth I was at a pre-NYCC event with Charles Soule and someone asked him directly if he would hold back a new property from Marvel to develop on his own. He said that no, while there are certainly considerations to be weighed, he had no problem giving Marvel new characters he might develop.
Of course that's not a binding oath or anything and he might have just been giving a pleasant fluff reply, but I don't think it's as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be.
Sara C. and the others who are trying to argue that Marvel and DC don't absolutely dominate US comic sales, you're going to need to produce some numbers to counter the ones given above because your position is absolutely nuts. There is no question that the Big 2 are, by far, the biggest part of the US comics market. I'd be really interested to see proof otherwise.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:01 AM on December 1, 2014
bettafish: I also think it needs to be noted that while Guardians of the Galaxy went from decades of obscurity to breakout success, the major team members who got cut from the movie roster were the woman of color and the lesbian/bi couple.
Well, it's not that simple, although the fact that it isn't is probably part of the problem. Without going into the incredibly convoluted history of the team, it should be noted that Mantis, Phyla-Vell and Moondragon were only part of the team for a relatively limited time, and most of Mantis' and Moondragon's histories lie outside of the GotG; also, Phyla has had three separate superheroine identities (with different powersets), Mantis has been a character in four different comics companies, and I don't even know where to start with Moondragon, who was actually a dragon, sort of, for a while. Also, Phyla is dead.
Which is not to say that they couldn't be brought back and made much better use of, either in the comics or in the movies; Carol Danvers, the current Captain Marvel, had had a similarly convoluted history before Kelly Sue DeConnick got ahold of her, and the character's current popularity is due, I think, in no small part to DeConnick's basic respect for the character. I want to be clear that when I say "basic respect for the character", that doesn't mean "exactly as they were originally portrayed", which is unfortunately a trap that a lot of otherwise-decent comics writers fall into. It's about finding the way in which a particular character basically works, and basing the character's arc on that. I thought that Phyla's Quasar variation, with the sword, was a nice addition to GotG because that sort of cosmic knight-errant was a sharp contrast to most of the rest of the team being in the usual mercenary/assassin/space-pirate/bounty hunter/treasure hunter that so much of space opera and fantasy is concerned with. But Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning (aka DnA) seemed to be thrashing around with trying to get a grip on the character, which is also kind of representative of their work on Marvel Cosmic in general. If she does get added to the movie team (crosses fingers), hopefully James Gunn & Co. can find that arc and discard the stuff that doesn't really work.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:18 AM on December 1, 2014
Well, it's not that simple, although the fact that it isn't is probably part of the problem. Without going into the incredibly convoluted history of the team, it should be noted that Mantis, Phyla-Vell and Moondragon were only part of the team for a relatively limited time, and most of Mantis' and Moondragon's histories lie outside of the GotG; also, Phyla has had three separate superheroine identities (with different powersets), Mantis has been a character in four different comics companies, and I don't even know where to start with Moondragon, who was actually a dragon, sort of, for a while. Also, Phyla is dead.
Which is not to say that they couldn't be brought back and made much better use of, either in the comics or in the movies; Carol Danvers, the current Captain Marvel, had had a similarly convoluted history before Kelly Sue DeConnick got ahold of her, and the character's current popularity is due, I think, in no small part to DeConnick's basic respect for the character. I want to be clear that when I say "basic respect for the character", that doesn't mean "exactly as they were originally portrayed", which is unfortunately a trap that a lot of otherwise-decent comics writers fall into. It's about finding the way in which a particular character basically works, and basing the character's arc on that. I thought that Phyla's Quasar variation, with the sword, was a nice addition to GotG because that sort of cosmic knight-errant was a sharp contrast to most of the rest of the team being in the usual mercenary/assassin/space-pirate/bounty hunter/treasure hunter that so much of space opera and fantasy is concerned with. But Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning (aka DnA) seemed to be thrashing around with trying to get a grip on the character, which is also kind of representative of their work on Marvel Cosmic in general. If she does get added to the movie team (crosses fingers), hopefully James Gunn & Co. can find that arc and discard the stuff that doesn't really work.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:18 AM on December 1, 2014
Myths, misfits & masks: Sana Amanat at TEDxTeen 2014
I like how she posits Ms. Marvel as basically Jersey's Spider-Man.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:20 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I like how she posits Ms. Marvel as basically Jersey's Spider-Man.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:20 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's not that I'm claiming anything about total sales numbers. I'm just wondering how the rest of the comics industry compares outside of superhero comic shop single issue type stuff. Because again, I have to say, I read comics for decades before it really occurred to me to pick up a Marvel or DC comic book.
posted by Sara C. at 9:28 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by Sara C. at 9:28 PM on December 1, 2014
Kahn's right.
And I'll echo her praise for Christopher Priest -- it's a damn crime most of his Black Panther run has never been reprinted.
posted by Zed at 6:47 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
And I'll echo her praise for Christopher Priest -- it's a damn crime most of his Black Panther run has never been reprinted.
posted by Zed at 6:47 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: I wouldn't be surprised, but it's impossible to know for sure.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:29 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by Chrysostom at 2:29 PM on December 3, 2014
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posted by Renoroc at 6:48 AM on November 30, 2014