Godus Ex Machina
February 11, 2015 4:05 AM Subscribe
Godus, billed as a spiritual successor to beloved classic God-game Populous, raised £526,563 on Kickstarter in late 2012, after being teased in the controversial mobile "event" Curiosity (previously.) A well-received demo at PAX Prime in 2013 fueled more hype, but the Steam Early access launch that followed was met with lukewarm reviews, and the release of a freemium iOS version heightened the backlash. It now appears that Godus may be on the brink of abandonment, in the wake of staff shake-ups, Molyneux announcing a new project, and an admission that Kickstarter pledges will probably not be met.
The Kickstarter comments seem to have evolved into a relatively civil discussion about whether there'd be any merit to asking Kickstarter to sanction 22Cans. Meanwhile on Steam, ASCII middle fingers seem to be a recurring motif in the reviews.
Fans of Populous might be best off investigating GOG's release of the game and its two sequels.
The Kickstarter comments seem to have evolved into a relatively civil discussion about whether there'd be any merit to asking Kickstarter to sanction 22Cans. Meanwhile on Steam, ASCII middle fingers seem to be a recurring motif in the reviews.
Fans of Populous might be best off investigating GOG's release of the game and its two sequels.
Yeah, his name is what kept me from throwing cash down this fundinghole. I remember the hope and excitement and letdown of Black and White. Why invest my dollars and dreams into something that, at best, won't somewhat live up to its promises some five years after release?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:23 AM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:23 AM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Every time Molyneux says that his next game will be what all his previous games should have been, he should be forced to give up half the money he made from those previous, apparently shitty games.
And also give me back half the time I spent trying to enjoy them as much as I loved Populous.
posted by Etrigan at 4:24 AM on February 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
And also give me back half the time I spent trying to enjoy them as much as I loved Populous.
posted by Etrigan at 4:24 AM on February 11, 2015 [6 favorites]
The Trail, will be an “experience never seen before” according to the Fun And Serious Games Festival at which he announced it. Molyneux “explained” it thus:Just like how we'd make every effort to make 140 chars count even though we’d feel frustrated, with lots of things to say that we can’t utter. Far from being different to "social media" this sounds like Twitter: The Game. Like a bunch of game developers sat around brainstorming about why various apps and websites were successful and how they could apply that to game design.“It can be understood at a glance, and it entertains the idea of communication beyond words, by means of music, art, and so on. The problem with social media is that we communicate too much. If you and I, who are having a conversation right now, could only say ten words to each other, we’d feel frustrated, with lots of things to say that we can’t utter. But, on the other hand, we’d make every effort to make those ten words sound as meaningful as possible.”
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 4:28 AM on February 11, 2015
I saw this image linked to the other day. Seems relevant.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:28 AM on February 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 4:28 AM on February 11, 2015 [16 favorites]
Waaaay way back in the days when I was still getting high, there was this time I was with a bunch of friends, very high. And I had one of those amazingly great ideas that you get when you're high, but that you either never remember afterwards, or that if you DO remember, they turn out in the cold light of day to be not that great.
My idea was a game show called "You Can't Win!". The title says it all. It was a game show in which no contestant would ever ever win. But the fun would be in watching the producers come up with new ways to entice suckers in to play, week after week. The structure of the game would be constantly changing, and always in ways that seemed to reduce the producers' ability to block a victory, but in the end there would be some twist that inevitably resulted in a humiliating loss for the players. ALL the players.
Pretty strange concept. I would've said, after the drugs wore off, that it was a bit too complicated an idea, and maybe not even possible to implement.
But voilà! Peter Molyneux's career.
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:48 AM on February 11, 2015 [34 favorites]
My idea was a game show called "You Can't Win!". The title says it all. It was a game show in which no contestant would ever ever win. But the fun would be in watching the producers come up with new ways to entice suckers in to play, week after week. The structure of the game would be constantly changing, and always in ways that seemed to reduce the producers' ability to block a victory, but in the end there would be some twist that inevitably resulted in a humiliating loss for the players. ALL the players.
Pretty strange concept. I would've said, after the drugs wore off, that it was a bit too complicated an idea, and maybe not even possible to implement.
But voilà! Peter Molyneux's career.
posted by Ipsifendus at 4:48 AM on February 11, 2015 [34 favorites]
Molyneux saying this out loud to a reporter seems so incredibly damning to me:
There’s this overwhelming urge to over-promise because it’s such a harsh rule: if you’re one penny short of your target then you don’t get it. And of course in this instance, the behaviour is incredibly destructive, which is ‘Christ, we’ve only got 10 days to go and we’ve got to make £100,000, for fuck’s sake, lets just say anything’.
Just wow. As an acquaintance of mine pointed out on twitter yesterday, the worst case scenario for a Kickstarter isn't failing to meet your goal, it's meeting your goal and then not having the money to do what you said you were going to do. Not only has Molyneux failed to realize that, he's also made things worse by being so blasé about it after the fact. "I knowingly lied to you to get your money" isn't something you say out loud to publishers, much less your fans .
I used to give Molyneux at least a tiny bit of benefit of the doubt, thinking of him as over-ambitious/grandiose in his planning even if the results were frequently charmingly flawed (to be kind). That's gone now and I wasn't even particularly invested in this project or Molyneux's work in general. It's been sad to watch, even if not entirely surprising.
posted by sparkletone at 4:52 AM on February 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
There’s this overwhelming urge to over-promise because it’s such a harsh rule: if you’re one penny short of your target then you don’t get it. And of course in this instance, the behaviour is incredibly destructive, which is ‘Christ, we’ve only got 10 days to go and we’ve got to make £100,000, for fuck’s sake, lets just say anything’.
Just wow. As an acquaintance of mine pointed out on twitter yesterday, the worst case scenario for a Kickstarter isn't failing to meet your goal, it's meeting your goal and then not having the money to do what you said you were going to do. Not only has Molyneux failed to realize that, he's also made things worse by being so blasé about it after the fact. "I knowingly lied to you to get your money" isn't something you say out loud to publishers, much less your fans .
I used to give Molyneux at least a tiny bit of benefit of the doubt, thinking of him as over-ambitious/grandiose in his planning even if the results were frequently charmingly flawed (to be kind). That's gone now and I wasn't even particularly invested in this project or Molyneux's work in general. It's been sad to watch, even if not entirely surprising.
posted by sparkletone at 4:52 AM on February 11, 2015 [17 favorites]
It will be a real shame if Peter Molyneux's latter-day failures end up being his legacy, rather than the extraordinary work he did in the 90's and 00's. Articles like this often refer to him as the creator of Populous, which is a bit like referring to Shakespeare as "the author of Hamlet." (Not that Molyneux's talent is on Shakespeare's level).
Populous may be his most well-known work, but the man had a lead role in Syndicate, Theme Park, Magic Carpet, Dungeon Keeper, and Fable. As late as 2009 you could say that his record was two ground-breaking, genre-redefining masterpieces for every one broken mess. Even Black and White sucked countless hours from many of my friends, because while it was undoubtedly a broken mess, it was such an interestingly broken mess.
I get it that predicting the final scope of any software project is an extremely difficult task, especially when your final goal is as nebulous as "make something fun and interesting," and yet Molyneux's ability to do so seems to have actively gotten worse over the course of the last ten years. And at the same time he seems to have become more and more willing to promise the world on the basis of his flawed predictions.
The worst part is his seemingly complete lack of self-reflection on these issues. He doesn't even seem to have a sense that there might be anything really wrong with the way he's been going about things.
posted by firechicago at 5:06 AM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Populous may be his most well-known work, but the man had a lead role in Syndicate, Theme Park, Magic Carpet, Dungeon Keeper, and Fable. As late as 2009 you could say that his record was two ground-breaking, genre-redefining masterpieces for every one broken mess. Even Black and White sucked countless hours from many of my friends, because while it was undoubtedly a broken mess, it was such an interestingly broken mess.
I get it that predicting the final scope of any software project is an extremely difficult task, especially when your final goal is as nebulous as "make something fun and interesting," and yet Molyneux's ability to do so seems to have actively gotten worse over the course of the last ten years. And at the same time he seems to have become more and more willing to promise the world on the basis of his flawed predictions.
The worst part is his seemingly complete lack of self-reflection on these issues. He doesn't even seem to have a sense that there might be anything really wrong with the way he's been going about things.
posted by firechicago at 5:06 AM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Molyneux is a fraud.
Kickstarter's 2012 Terms of Service were very clear: if a project does not deliver, they are required to refund money to all backers. AFAIK this has never really been enforced. Enforcing it against well meaning small-time folks who found out they were in over their head never seemed really the spirit of Kickstarter anyway. (Although Neal Stephenson's Clang fiasco of $500,000 should have triggered refunds, IMHO.)
But this case is different. 22Cans is a real for-profit company with several products. Molyneux is an experienced game developer who should know what he is doing. He took ~$800,000 in prepayments from customers and now he is not delivering the goods he promised in exchange. That is fraud.
I used to love Molyneux, even after some of his previous games broke our hearts by never quite delivering on the gameplay hype promise. He's always been a bit of a huckster but I think with Black & White or the Fable series he really made a sincere effort to deliver. With Godus he just took $800,000 from people and is walking away with it. That is fraud.
(This is about the third in big pre-payment game fiascos that are slowly unrolling. The big one to watch will be Star Citizen, now $72M collected from customers and a year late delivering the promised game. I sure hope what they ship is as good as everyone is hoping, because otherwise it could be ugly.)
posted by Nelson at 5:10 AM on February 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Kickstarter's 2012 Terms of Service were very clear: if a project does not deliver, they are required to refund money to all backers. AFAIK this has never really been enforced. Enforcing it against well meaning small-time folks who found out they were in over their head never seemed really the spirit of Kickstarter anyway. (Although Neal Stephenson's Clang fiasco of $500,000 should have triggered refunds, IMHO.)
But this case is different. 22Cans is a real for-profit company with several products. Molyneux is an experienced game developer who should know what he is doing. He took ~$800,000 in prepayments from customers and now he is not delivering the goods he promised in exchange. That is fraud.
I used to love Molyneux, even after some of his previous games broke our hearts by never quite delivering on the gameplay hype promise. He's always been a bit of a huckster but I think with Black & White or the Fable series he really made a sincere effort to deliver. With Godus he just took $800,000 from people and is walking away with it. That is fraud.
(This is about the third in big pre-payment game fiascos that are slowly unrolling. The big one to watch will be Star Citizen, now $72M collected from customers and a year late delivering the promised game. I sure hope what they ship is as good as everyone is hoping, because otherwise it could be ugly.)
posted by Nelson at 5:10 AM on February 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
He doesn't even seem to have a sense that there might be anything really wrong with the way he's been going about things.
Why would he? What is strange is that people keep falling for it.
posted by Ipsifendus at 5:11 AM on February 11, 2015
Why would he? What is strange is that people keep falling for it.
posted by Ipsifendus at 5:11 AM on February 11, 2015
"The big one to watch will be Star Citizen, now $72M collected from customers and a year late delivering the promised game. I sure hope what they ship is as good as everyone is hoping, because otherwise it could be ugly."
How could it possibly be?
posted by graventy at 5:31 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
How could it possibly be?
posted by graventy at 5:31 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
He took ~$800,000 in prepayments from customers and now he is not delivering the goods he promised in exchange. That is fraud.
IANAL but the gist of the regulations for crowdfunding is based on the principle of due diligence, correct? that so long as they can demonstrate, in a court of law, that their company has diligently worked on the project and the project succeeds to bare minimum standards (ie some features are there even if they are poorly balanced) then their liability is satisfied
the real suckerpunch here seems to be Kickstarter collecting fees from successfully funded campaigns while having a TOS that removes any liability from them even though they're the ones facilitating an advertising platform. their TOS encourages debacles like these and the spate of crowdfunded projects that were more advertising than product (like that Neil Young mp3 player) hints at a model of development for mediocre, low-bar products that satisfy due diligence but not much else while Kickstarter rakes it in
posted by saucy_knave at 5:33 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
IANAL but the gist of the regulations for crowdfunding is based on the principle of due diligence, correct? that so long as they can demonstrate, in a court of law, that their company has diligently worked on the project and the project succeeds to bare minimum standards (ie some features are there even if they are poorly balanced) then their liability is satisfied
the real suckerpunch here seems to be Kickstarter collecting fees from successfully funded campaigns while having a TOS that removes any liability from them even though they're the ones facilitating an advertising platform. their TOS encourages debacles like these and the spate of crowdfunded projects that were more advertising than product (like that Neil Young mp3 player) hints at a model of development for mediocre, low-bar products that satisfy due diligence but not much else while Kickstarter rakes it in
posted by saucy_knave at 5:33 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
How could it possibly be?
Maybe I'm mistaken in this impression, but Star Citizen doesn't seem to be in anywhere near as precarious a position as Godus is. The scope of the game wasn't over-promised out of the gate, they expanded it (massively) after they started getting an absurd amount of funding. They're also being far, far more transparent about current project status and people seem to be enjoying what they're letting people play already.
posted by sparkletone at 5:41 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm mistaken in this impression, but Star Citizen doesn't seem to be in anywhere near as precarious a position as Godus is. The scope of the game wasn't over-promised out of the gate, they expanded it (massively) after they started getting an absurd amount of funding. They're also being far, far more transparent about current project status and people seem to be enjoying what they're letting people play already.
posted by sparkletone at 5:41 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm a Godus backer (in the middle range); really my hopes for the project were realistically-low from the outset, (given the large scope of the project for the size of their resources), so they weren't really dashed when it petered out. I've always thought of any Kickstarter project as an investment in a dream or an idea, rather than an unrealistic definite expectation of a finished product; maybe that's why I'm not too disappointed.
If anything, I feel bad for Molyneux and 22cans; I know what it's like to have grand ideas and see them smashed by reality and sub-par planning. Probably I should join hundreds of others in strident demands for refunds, retribution, seeing Peter hanged by his entrails, etc etc., but I can't really summon the outrage the majority of others seem to be experiencing. Does that make me a sap or an easy mark? I don't know. If I'd invested thousands, maybe my perception of sunk cost would be higher.
For my funding money I got to watch the evolution of a game's design at close quarters, see some interesting discussions of game concepts on a crowd level, and see a design evolve based not only on the ideas of its creators but on the ideas of the people who invested in it. I'm sorry for those who feel they were cheated out of their rightful returns, (especially the highest-level backers), but this kind of crowdfunding activity isn't a quid-pro-quo transaction.
posted by The Zeroth Law at 5:43 AM on February 11, 2015
If anything, I feel bad for Molyneux and 22cans; I know what it's like to have grand ideas and see them smashed by reality and sub-par planning. Probably I should join hundreds of others in strident demands for refunds, retribution, seeing Peter hanged by his entrails, etc etc., but I can't really summon the outrage the majority of others seem to be experiencing. Does that make me a sap or an easy mark? I don't know. If I'd invested thousands, maybe my perception of sunk cost would be higher.
For my funding money I got to watch the evolution of a game's design at close quarters, see some interesting discussions of game concepts on a crowd level, and see a design evolve based not only on the ideas of its creators but on the ideas of the people who invested in it. I'm sorry for those who feel they were cheated out of their rightful returns, (especially the highest-level backers), but this kind of crowdfunding activity isn't a quid-pro-quo transaction.
posted by The Zeroth Law at 5:43 AM on February 11, 2015
Except pre-2014 Kickstarter was a quid-pro-quo transaction. The terms were very clear about it. It's just that no one thought of it that way and a bunch of shaky projects have skated not delivering their end of the bargain. The new Kickstarter ToS are much more in line with how people see the spirit of Kickstarter. It's much more realistic, but has even less protection for pre-payment customers than the old system. Basically you really have to believe in the whole fund-it-for-the-dream idea that is truthfully core to the Kickstarter ethos. Personally, I think established companies and $100,000+ projects are a bad match to that ethos.
Computer game funding in general is on a trend towards more crowd-funding, early access, rolling alpha releases, etc. I think it's mostly terribly bad for consumers. It's worked out well a few times (Minecraft, most notably, also Kerbal Space Program.) But mostly we have a bunch of mediocre games that never really get finished, then their developers get bored and wander off leaving some half-finished crap behind. Of course this is happening with big commerical AAA releases too, with companies like EA and Ubisoft really abusing the pre-order and release patching process.
posted by Nelson at 5:52 AM on February 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Computer game funding in general is on a trend towards more crowd-funding, early access, rolling alpha releases, etc. I think it's mostly terribly bad for consumers. It's worked out well a few times (Minecraft, most notably, also Kerbal Space Program.) But mostly we have a bunch of mediocre games that never really get finished, then their developers get bored and wander off leaving some half-finished crap behind. Of course this is happening with big commerical AAA releases too, with companies like EA and Ubisoft really abusing the pre-order and release patching process.
posted by Nelson at 5:52 AM on February 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
The amazing thing is Molyneux is that I remember back when Bullfrog was cracking up a million years ago that the prevailing consensus was he talked a big game and then everyone else did the actual work. So I'm not sure he's ever been anything but a circus barker.
posted by selfnoise at 5:59 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 5:59 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hmm. I've been amusing myself with the iOS version for a while now, and enjoying it a fair bit. It's perfectly playable without spending any money, as long as you are patient, and there have been a couple of quite useful updates recently. I hope the servers don't shut off before I can finish unlocking Weyworld...
posted by Rock Steady at 6:01 AM on February 11, 2015
posted by Rock Steady at 6:01 AM on February 11, 2015
I loved Populous as much as the next guy, but all I really want is a remake of Powermonger. It's not that there's anything wrong with the original, but it looks like crap on a modern rig.
posted by JaredSeth at 6:02 AM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by JaredSeth at 6:02 AM on February 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
All of the Star Citizen videos already show a very polished product that has me considering buying a new joystick and beta access, the only thing that's stopped me so far is their pricing, $110 for the premium starship upgrade is concerning, and I want to make sure that's not going to be the normalized price structure for the final game.
But it's clear that much of that absurd fundraising is going back into development, it's definitely not vaporware, and although I guess its still possible to ship a broken mess, I think it's unlikely.
On the other hand, I wouldn't anything with Molyneux involved after Black and White, and Godus has obvious parallels to Spore, not Molyneux , but another open ended God-game with a years long development track? It's been pretty conclusively proven that genre can never live up to the promise.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:03 AM on February 11, 2015
But it's clear that much of that absurd fundraising is going back into development, it's definitely not vaporware, and although I guess its still possible to ship a broken mess, I think it's unlikely.
On the other hand, I wouldn't anything with Molyneux involved after Black and White, and Godus has obvious parallels to Spore, not Molyneux , but another open ended God-game with a years long development track? It's been pretty conclusively proven that genre can never live up to the promise.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:03 AM on February 11, 2015
I should add, I do empathize with the backers of the project who aren't getting the returns they expected. I downloaded and started playing without knowing anything about the Kickstarter, and was kind of shocked when I learned about all the backstage drama.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:03 AM on February 11, 2015
posted by Rock Steady at 6:03 AM on February 11, 2015
Related: Eurogamer covers the fate of Bryan Henderson, supposed God of Godus Gods.
posted by Zarkonnen at 6:09 AM on February 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Zarkonnen at 6:09 AM on February 11, 2015 [9 favorites]
On the topic of old Bullfrog games from back when Molyneux could deliver, fans of the original Syndicate* series should check out it's spiritual sequel - Satellite Reign. It's is in Early Access on Steam at the moment (don't buy it right now - it's *way* too expensive for what you get) but having played it I can safely say that it's got the perfect look and feel and I am looking forward to the final product immensely.
*the FPS was at best a 7/10.
posted by longbaugh at 6:13 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
*the FPS was at best a 7/10.
posted by longbaugh at 6:13 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's worked out well a few times (Minecraft, most notably, also Kerbal Space Program.) But mostly we have a bunch of mediocre games that never really get finished, then their developers get bored and wander off leaving some half-finished crap behind.
The trick is not to buy in until there's enough there to show that they can reach a release point. Both KSP and Minecraft started with *something* -- you could mine and build in Minecraft, you couldexplode orbit things in KSP. That showed that the project might actually get somewhere.
Indeed, the reason I think that both those games became big playgrounds was that they had a engine that let you do stuff in a cool way, but no real goals at the start. KSP got a huge boost since the system was open enough that many people built add ons to add things that they thought were needed/wanted/fuckingawesome and a good number of those things were actually wrapped into the game -- basically, they got the initial development to beta of a lot of features done by the community. I have no idea what sort of renumeration was given or asked for -- but it's clear that both sides were happy.
TOS encourages debacles like these and the spate of crowdfunded projects that were more advertising than product (like that Neil Young mp3 player)
Okay.
1) Calling it an MP3 player is an epic troll, and I mean that in the "wow, that's really well done" troll, not "GRARR you suck troll". Nice jorb there, subby. :-)
2) They, um, delivered. On pretty much every promise. They said they would build a high quality digital audio device that supported high bitrate/bitdepth FLAC files, and they delivered exactly that.
I'm not going to buy it, but the Pono is kickstarter exactly as it should be. "We're going to be making X. We need to fund development of X. Here are the issues with that. Here is what we are going to build. If you fund us with X, you'll get one of the first batch." They did all of that, now they're in production, and the backers have the product. They've now left the kickstarter phase and are selling a developed product (and presumably working on the next one.)
Indeed, I'm still surprised by how well Kickstarter is working. I thought for sure that it would be full of scams and crap, but instead, it's still (in general) doing what it's supposed to be doing, which is crowdsourcing initial development funds. There's a lot of silly things, like mounts for lights on bikes, bike seats that are locks, but somebody thought it was a good idea, enough people agreed with them, they developed it and made the product.
Now, this may be a bad model for games. For things like recordings and manufactured products, once you've done the development work, the cost per piece drops. With the current game model of "release something and keep patching it/adding content over time", you may get earlier cash, but you still have a shitload of dev work to do.
For long term support, it's a lousy model, as people realized pretty quick. Patreon is a much better model for the "I'd love to give you $5 a month to go make music." Indeed, classically, that's exactly how artists were able to do art. They had patrons.
And then, sometimes, you ask for $10K for a silly card game and get two orders of magnitude more money. I'm really interested to see what happens with this. Once you're set up, printing more decks of cards doesn't cost that much. That may be enough money to give a deck to every person in the country. The funny thing was that under risks they explicitly put "The biggest challenge for us would actually be if you blow us out of the water."
Whelp. Achievement Unlocked!
posted by eriko at 6:41 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
The trick is not to buy in until there's enough there to show that they can reach a release point. Both KSP and Minecraft started with *something* -- you could mine and build in Minecraft, you could
Indeed, the reason I think that both those games became big playgrounds was that they had a engine that let you do stuff in a cool way, but no real goals at the start. KSP got a huge boost since the system was open enough that many people built add ons to add things that they thought were needed/wanted/fuckingawesome and a good number of those things were actually wrapped into the game -- basically, they got the initial development to beta of a lot of features done by the community. I have no idea what sort of renumeration was given or asked for -- but it's clear that both sides were happy.
TOS encourages debacles like these and the spate of crowdfunded projects that were more advertising than product (like that Neil Young mp3 player)
Okay.
1) Calling it an MP3 player is an epic troll, and I mean that in the "wow, that's really well done" troll, not "GRARR you suck troll". Nice jorb there, subby. :-)
2) They, um, delivered. On pretty much every promise. They said they would build a high quality digital audio device that supported high bitrate/bitdepth FLAC files, and they delivered exactly that.
I'm not going to buy it, but the Pono is kickstarter exactly as it should be. "We're going to be making X. We need to fund development of X. Here are the issues with that. Here is what we are going to build. If you fund us with X, you'll get one of the first batch." They did all of that, now they're in production, and the backers have the product. They've now left the kickstarter phase and are selling a developed product (and presumably working on the next one.)
Indeed, I'm still surprised by how well Kickstarter is working. I thought for sure that it would be full of scams and crap, but instead, it's still (in general) doing what it's supposed to be doing, which is crowdsourcing initial development funds. There's a lot of silly things, like mounts for lights on bikes, bike seats that are locks, but somebody thought it was a good idea, enough people agreed with them, they developed it and made the product.
Now, this may be a bad model for games. For things like recordings and manufactured products, once you've done the development work, the cost per piece drops. With the current game model of "release something and keep patching it/adding content over time", you may get earlier cash, but you still have a shitload of dev work to do.
For long term support, it's a lousy model, as people realized pretty quick. Patreon is a much better model for the "I'd love to give you $5 a month to go make music." Indeed, classically, that's exactly how artists were able to do art. They had patrons.
And then, sometimes, you ask for $10K for a silly card game and get two orders of magnitude more money. I'm really interested to see what happens with this. Once you're set up, printing more decks of cards doesn't cost that much. That may be enough money to give a deck to every person in the country. The funny thing was that under risks they explicitly put "The biggest challenge for us would actually be if you blow us out of the water."
Whelp. Achievement Unlocked!
posted by eriko at 6:41 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
"All of the Star Citizen videos already show a very polished product that has me considering buying a new joystick and beta access, the only thing that's stopped me so far is their pricing, $110 for the premium starship upgrade is concerning, and I want to make sure that's not going to be the normalized price structure for the final game."
Unless something has changed, cloud imperium wasn't planning on selling ships in the store after the game launches, everything will have to be bought in-game via credits. The ship sales are just for the pledge period to fund development.
"The big one to watch will be Star Citizen, now $72M collected from customers and a year late delivering the promised game."
Um, no it's not a "year late", where are you getting that? The risk with Star Citizen isn't that they won't release, or that it'll be shoddy, it's that people's expectations are so high that there's going to be some letdown when it just turns out to be a (likely quite good) game.
posted by CaffinatedOne at 6:48 AM on February 11, 2015
Unless something has changed, cloud imperium wasn't planning on selling ships in the store after the game launches, everything will have to be bought in-game via credits. The ship sales are just for the pledge period to fund development.
"The big one to watch will be Star Citizen, now $72M collected from customers and a year late delivering the promised game."
Um, no it's not a "year late", where are you getting that? The risk with Star Citizen isn't that they won't release, or that it'll be shoddy, it's that people's expectations are so high that there's going to be some letdown when it just turns out to be a (likely quite good) game.
posted by CaffinatedOne at 6:48 AM on February 11, 2015
Molyneux should be ashamed to be damning his team like this but if there's one thing he's demonstrated, Molyneux lacks shame. Even when a game of any quality would be produced, it was at considerable cost to the team- Because Molyneux and his seemingly insatiable appetite for horseshit.
The man should do the decent thing and step out of the industry.
posted by cheap paper at 6:58 AM on February 11, 2015
The man should do the decent thing and step out of the industry.
posted by cheap paper at 6:58 AM on February 11, 2015
This may or may not be Peter Molyneux's Twitter account.
posted by nerdler at 6:59 AM on February 11, 2015
posted by nerdler at 6:59 AM on February 11, 2015
Has any failed Kickstarted prompted a class action suit? It seems an eventuality - maybe this will be the first.
posted by exogenous at 6:59 AM on February 11, 2015
posted by exogenous at 6:59 AM on February 11, 2015
Related: Eurogamer covers the fate of Bryan Henderson, supposed God of Godus Gods.
Peter Molyneux: The shittiest Willy Wonka.
posted by sparkletone at 7:00 AM on February 11, 2015 [20 favorites]
Peter Molyneux: The shittiest Willy Wonka.
posted by sparkletone at 7:00 AM on February 11, 2015 [20 favorites]
I was one of the creators of Molyjam, an international game jam based on the tweets of Molyneux parody Twitter accout @Molydeux. Peter came to one of the UK jam locations and seemed genuinely tickled with the whole thing, so I think he's got some sense of self awareness.
I think it would be interesting to see what Molyneux could put together by himself in Twine with a couple of months.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:10 AM on February 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think it would be interesting to see what Molyneux could put together by himself in Twine with a couple of months.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:10 AM on February 11, 2015 [7 favorites]
Populous may be his most well-known work, but the man had a lead role in Syndicate, Theme Park, Magic Carpet, Dungeon Keeper, and Fable.
How many of these do we really know his was the genius that made those games good? Maybe he just got lucky hiring the kind of great game developers who could make a good game inspired by any idiots vague "What if you could do this?" ideas.
posted by straight at 8:12 AM on February 11, 2015
How many of these do we really know his was the genius that made those games good? Maybe he just got lucky hiring the kind of great game developers who could make a good game inspired by any idiots vague "What if you could do this?" ideas.
posted by straight at 8:12 AM on February 11, 2015
Peter Molyneux: The shittiest Willy Wonka.
Seriously. That "winner's" video at the center of Curiosity was the most cringe-inducing, "...uh, so I know I promised to put something good in here...isn't it amazing how many people ended up clicking on this thing!...so, about that life-changing prize...uh...San Dimas High School Football Rules!"
Even though he finally does get to that Godus thing which sounded a little bit potentially cool, the first half of that video you're thinking, "Oh, god, he never had any idea what to put in this thing and now he's trying to think of something the night before it's due."
posted by straight at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Seriously. That "winner's" video at the center of Curiosity was the most cringe-inducing, "...uh, so I know I promised to put something good in here...isn't it amazing how many people ended up clicking on this thing!...so, about that life-changing prize...uh...San Dimas High School Football Rules!"
Even though he finally does get to that Godus thing which sounded a little bit potentially cool, the first half of that video you're thinking, "Oh, god, he never had any idea what to put in this thing and now he's trying to think of something the night before it's due."
posted by straight at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hmm. Wasn't a Kickstarter backer, but played Godus for a bit. It's enjoyable enough as a god game, but not a lot of depth. You run out of interesting challenges pretty soon. However, I will say, for a free to play it was remarkably non-gougy, you got enough free of the premium currency to purchase anything you would reasonably want.
posted by tavella at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2015
posted by tavella at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2015
Peter came to one of the UK jam locations and seemed genuinely tickled with the whole thing, so I think he's got some sense of self awareness.
He's definitely a personable guy. You can see why he's been so successful at getting people to buy into his bullshit. This video where he reviews and brainstorms about fart apps is adorable.
posted by straight at 8:29 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's definitely a personable guy. You can see why he's been so successful at getting people to buy into his bullshit. This video where he reviews and brainstorms about fart apps is adorable.
posted by straight at 8:29 AM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe he just got lucky hiring the kind of great game developers who could make a good game inspired by any idiots vague "What if you could do this?" ideas.
Maybe, but if so, that's one hell of a 15+ year streak of good luck. Lots of idiots have formed game studios and blathered on vaguely, but very few have the record Peter Molyneux does. It seems much more likely that he actually is good at attracting and hiring excellent designers and developers and pushing them to do interesting and exciting work, but that his swollen ego has made his reach vastly exceed his grasp these last 5 years or so.
(None of which is mutually exclusive with him also being a supremely narcissistic bullshitter, who will tell anyone anything if he thinks it will get him praise and attention. It's just that people tended to write his bullshitting off as an eccentricity when the games with his name on them were actually good and/or interesting in their own right).
posted by firechicago at 10:57 AM on February 11, 2015
Maybe, but if so, that's one hell of a 15+ year streak of good luck. Lots of idiots have formed game studios and blathered on vaguely, but very few have the record Peter Molyneux does. It seems much more likely that he actually is good at attracting and hiring excellent designers and developers and pushing them to do interesting and exciting work, but that his swollen ego has made his reach vastly exceed his grasp these last 5 years or so.
(None of which is mutually exclusive with him also being a supremely narcissistic bullshitter, who will tell anyone anything if he thinks it will get him praise and attention. It's just that people tended to write his bullshitting off as an eccentricity when the games with his name on them were actually good and/or interesting in their own right).
posted by firechicago at 10:57 AM on February 11, 2015
Didn't PC Gamer do an article on Game Gods back around 2000? Wasn't Molyneux on that list? I only mention this because a lot of names from that list has fallen from grace. He's not the only "Game God" to see his name be drug through the mud.
posted by Beholder at 12:43 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by Beholder at 12:43 PM on February 11, 2015
Molyneux's most consistently has produced disappointment throughout his career. Thank god he was never responsible for fulfilling childhood dreams.
posted by One Hand Slowclapping at 1:19 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by One Hand Slowclapping at 1:19 PM on February 11, 2015
The makes of Shadowrun Returns are finishing up a Kickstarter right new. They had no problem getting the money, because they have a history of delivering. That's something Molyneaux might try some day.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:22 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:22 PM on February 11, 2015
He took ~$800,000 in prepayments from customers and now he is not delivering the goods he promised in exchange. That is fraud.
Only if he didn't intend or expect to deliver when he solicited and took the money. Otherwise, generally speaking, it may be breach but it isn't fraud.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:29 PM on February 11, 2015
Only if he didn't intend or expect to deliver when he solicited and took the money. Otherwise, generally speaking, it may be breach but it isn't fraud.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:29 PM on February 11, 2015
As someone who's spent the last year and a half teasing my friends for spending silly amounts of money backing star citizen, I'm kind of hoping it will end in a colossal meltdown. I suppose this makes me an asshole.
posted by ryanrs at 1:41 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by ryanrs at 1:41 PM on February 11, 2015
Well, at least he didn't promise to make us his bitch, AFAIK. So there's that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:56 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:56 PM on February 11, 2015
I didn't know anything about this game, and am a sort of middling gamer at best, but boy was the iOS version of Godus a pile of garbage. I think it took me all of a week to realize how truly terrible it was and delete the app (along with the most recent SimCity game, BuildIt, which was a similar combination of boring and irritating).
posted by SassHat at 2:47 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by SassHat at 2:47 PM on February 11, 2015
firechicago: "his swollen ego has made his reach vastly exceed his grasp these last 5 years or so."
"5 years"? Try 14 years. Molyneux's mouth has been writing checks his ass can't cash since Black & White, in 2001.
Zarkonnen: "Related: Eurogamer covers the fate of Bryan Henderson, supposed God of Godus Gods."
Man, when Curiosity came out, and Molyneux said "what is inside the cube is life-changingly amazing by any definition", I wondered what kind of crashing disappointment he would put inside that cube. My guess was an image of a motivational poster with a cute kitten or puppy. Instead, he took it to a new level: a Molyneux promise about another upcoming game! The ability to be a god! (which it turns out Henderson will never get) A share of the profits! (which it turns out Henderson will never get). Molyneux managed to go beyond giving the winner something naff. He managed to go beyond even giving the winner nothing at all. He went all the way to giving the winner hopes which Molyneux could then dash! That's only a step above "If you win Curiosity I will change your life by breaking into your house and stealing your stuff!"
posted by Bugbread at 2:56 PM on February 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
"5 years"? Try 14 years. Molyneux's mouth has been writing checks his ass can't cash since Black & White, in 2001.
Zarkonnen: "Related: Eurogamer covers the fate of Bryan Henderson, supposed God of Godus Gods."
Man, when Curiosity came out, and Molyneux said "what is inside the cube is life-changingly amazing by any definition", I wondered what kind of crashing disappointment he would put inside that cube. My guess was an image of a motivational poster with a cute kitten or puppy. Instead, he took it to a new level: a Molyneux promise about another upcoming game! The ability to be a god! (which it turns out Henderson will never get) A share of the profits! (which it turns out Henderson will never get). Molyneux managed to go beyond giving the winner something naff. He managed to go beyond even giving the winner nothing at all. He went all the way to giving the winner hopes which Molyneux could then dash! That's only a step above "If you win Curiosity I will change your life by breaking into your house and stealing your stuff!"
posted by Bugbread at 2:56 PM on February 11, 2015 [11 favorites]
Dungeon Keeper was a fantastic little game, but Peter has been overpromising for a long time and I´d rather judge his finished games than back them sight unseen.
The one kickstarter that´s caught my attention after quite some time is the Ultima Underworld spiritual successor. Not sure about the outcome, but ex-Looking Glass people deserve a chance in my book.
posted by ersatz at 3:00 PM on February 11, 2015
The one kickstarter that´s caught my attention after quite some time is the Ultima Underworld spiritual successor. Not sure about the outcome, but ex-Looking Glass people deserve a chance in my book.
posted by ersatz at 3:00 PM on February 11, 2015
Actually, on reflection, with Curiosity's prize he truly outdid even himself. The Molyneux of old would promise "You will be God of Godus Gods" and that would end up meaning the winner would get 50 extra Godus Divinity Points, or a star next to his name. The Molyneux of old would promise "You will get a share of the profits" and that would end up meaning the winner would get 20 pounds. But with the new, powered-up Molyneux "You will be God of Godus Gods" has ended up meaning "Absolutely nothing. We're not even going to implement that play mode at all." and "You will get a share of the profits" means "You will get nothing. Not even a single penny."
posted by Bugbread at 3:21 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 3:21 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
the only thing that's stopped me so far is their pricing, $110 for the premium starship upgrade is concerning, and I want to make sure that's not going to be the normalized price structure for the final game.
All the buy-ships-and-other-stuff-now for real money is going to go away (they hammer away at this all the time, and there's pretty much zero chance that they might backpedal now (although one never knows for sure)) once the game itself launches (or the two main bits, the single player campaign and the persistent universe). At that point, everything will be able to be earned and acquired in-game only, with no real-world cash component available. At this point, and they've been very open and clear (if not maybe so much to the casually interested) about it, the buy-stuff-for-cash thing is just another way for fans who've already bought in to throw more money at them, and although I admit it can seem a bit cynical, one can't argue that it hasn't been effective.
The only current piece of the game that's playable is the dogfight module (which will be incorporated into the in-game fiction as a 'training simulator') and although it still feels a little rough in some aspects (like ship handling, which I think is much better in Elite:Dangerous at this point), it is amazing to look at, and they've been tightening things up and dialing in performance issues through regular patches.
Star Citizen is the only game I've ever bought in as a supporter before launch, so I'm hoping it's a success, naturally. They've promised awfully big -- ludicrously big, even, and the scope creep has been worrying to watch -- so I do have some doubts, as is only wise. Their target for single player launch is end of this year and early next for the persistent universe, and given the progress they're making at this point, I won't be surprised by further slippage but I do think that's a reasonable schedule.
I think by contrast that Elite:Dangerous's release strategy of building very strong if sparse bones for the world and iterating new features and stuff on top of that after launch might have been the better one, and I'm enjoying it immensely. We'll see what happens with Star Citizen: I am relatively confident and very hopeful.
Also, more on-topic: yeah, Molyneux. I have no idea why anybody pays attention to a damn thing he says any more.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:47 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
All the buy-ships-and-other-stuff-now for real money is going to go away (they hammer away at this all the time, and there's pretty much zero chance that they might backpedal now (although one never knows for sure)) once the game itself launches (or the two main bits, the single player campaign and the persistent universe). At that point, everything will be able to be earned and acquired in-game only, with no real-world cash component available. At this point, and they've been very open and clear (if not maybe so much to the casually interested) about it, the buy-stuff-for-cash thing is just another way for fans who've already bought in to throw more money at them, and although I admit it can seem a bit cynical, one can't argue that it hasn't been effective.
The only current piece of the game that's playable is the dogfight module (which will be incorporated into the in-game fiction as a 'training simulator') and although it still feels a little rough in some aspects (like ship handling, which I think is much better in Elite:Dangerous at this point), it is amazing to look at, and they've been tightening things up and dialing in performance issues through regular patches.
Star Citizen is the only game I've ever bought in as a supporter before launch, so I'm hoping it's a success, naturally. They've promised awfully big -- ludicrously big, even, and the scope creep has been worrying to watch -- so I do have some doubts, as is only wise. Their target for single player launch is end of this year and early next for the persistent universe, and given the progress they're making at this point, I won't be surprised by further slippage but I do think that's a reasonable schedule.
I think by contrast that Elite:Dangerous's release strategy of building very strong if sparse bones for the world and iterating new features and stuff on top of that after launch might have been the better one, and I'm enjoying it immensely. We'll see what happens with Star Citizen: I am relatively confident and very hopeful.
Also, more on-topic: yeah, Molyneux. I have no idea why anybody pays attention to a damn thing he says any more.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:47 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
ersatz, thanks for the link! I loved the Ultima Underworld games, and am squeeing right now! Off to pitch in my support.
Populous and Dungeon Keeper sucked probably months of my life away, but when I saw the ads for Black and White, I was kinda eh about it. Molyneux hasn't been on my radar at all the past decade, so this is kinda surprising to me. But then again I'm not a hardcore gamer.
posted by Alnedra at 5:45 PM on February 11, 2015
Populous and Dungeon Keeper sucked probably months of my life away, but when I saw the ads for Black and White, I was kinda eh about it. Molyneux hasn't been on my radar at all the past decade, so this is kinda surprising to me. But then again I'm not a hardcore gamer.
posted by Alnedra at 5:45 PM on February 11, 2015
Um, no [Star Citizen] is not a "year late", where are you getting that
I'm getting it from the fan wiki release schedule page. The release schedule is complicated because it lists various modules, but the one that seems to make a complete game is "Persistent Universe Module / Beta. Approximate date: End of 2015". Back in March 2014 that date was "End of 2014". I've been looking for a better source for the history of release promises for Star Citizen; please supply one if you can.
At this point I believe Star Citizen will release more or less what was promised. It's just the risk that it might not be very good, or some of the released features are nowhere near what people imagined when they were described. Gamers are trading the safety of waiting for a complete, reviewed product for the pleasure of participating in the pre-release hype and excitement building. Star Citizen has been particularly adept at turning that anticipation into booked revenue ahead of the actual product delivery. It feels predatory to me, particularly the "buy this in pre-release because once the game's out it there will be no way to ever buy it again!".
Anyway, 22Cans' failure to deliver a promised product is a whole different level of screwing the consumer. Bailing on straightforward features like a Linux port or a Student Forum seems particularly cynical. I get that making some fancy multiplayer god game fun is hard, but selling a Linux version and then building your game in a system that does not support Linux is, well.. charitably, it's really stupid.
posted by Nelson at 6:33 PM on February 11, 2015
I'm getting it from the fan wiki release schedule page. The release schedule is complicated because it lists various modules, but the one that seems to make a complete game is "Persistent Universe Module / Beta. Approximate date: End of 2015". Back in March 2014 that date was "End of 2014". I've been looking for a better source for the history of release promises for Star Citizen; please supply one if you can.
At this point I believe Star Citizen will release more or less what was promised. It's just the risk that it might not be very good, or some of the released features are nowhere near what people imagined when they were described. Gamers are trading the safety of waiting for a complete, reviewed product for the pleasure of participating in the pre-release hype and excitement building. Star Citizen has been particularly adept at turning that anticipation into booked revenue ahead of the actual product delivery. It feels predatory to me, particularly the "buy this in pre-release because once the game's out it there will be no way to ever buy it again!".
Anyway, 22Cans' failure to deliver a promised product is a whole different level of screwing the consumer. Bailing on straightforward features like a Linux port or a Student Forum seems particularly cynical. I get that making some fancy multiplayer god game fun is hard, but selling a Linux version and then building your game in a system that does not support Linux is, well.. charitably, it's really stupid.
posted by Nelson at 6:33 PM on February 11, 2015
Nelson: Gamers are trading the safety of waiting for a complete, reviewed product for the pleasure of participating in the pre-release hype and excitement building.
Well, it's not just that, it's also getting to have some input in what kind of game gets designed. It's worth remembering that until crowdfunding, the genre represented by Elite:Dangerous and Star Citizen was completely dead, with no games released in years (except maybe an indie or two of questionable quality) and nothing planned by any major developer.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:12 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, it's not just that, it's also getting to have some input in what kind of game gets designed. It's worth remembering that until crowdfunding, the genre represented by Elite:Dangerous and Star Citizen was completely dead, with no games released in years (except maybe an indie or two of questionable quality) and nothing planned by any major developer.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:12 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
the "buy this in pre-release because once the game's out it there will be no way to ever buy it again!"
The what now?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:17 PM on February 11, 2015
The what now?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:17 PM on February 11, 2015
It's worth remembering that until crowdfunding, the genre represented by Elite:Dangerous and Star Citizen was completely dead, with no games released in years (except maybe an indie or two of questionable quality) and nothing planned by any major developer.
Yeah, and now things have changed so dramatically!
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:27 PM on February 11, 2015
Yeah, and now things have changed so dramatically!
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:27 PM on February 11, 2015
Pope Guilty: Yeah, and now things have changed so dramatically!
Elite: Dangerous is out, and it has an 80 on metacritic. Before that, your options were either going into the deep back catalog, playing X: Rebirth (33/100, good luck with that), or messing around with Vega Strike. So people interested in this genre have at least one decent game now and maybe another in the future if they're lucky.
posted by Mitrovarr at 8:22 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Elite: Dangerous is out, and it has an 80 on metacritic. Before that, your options were either going into the deep back catalog, playing X: Rebirth (33/100, good luck with that), or messing around with Vega Strike. So people interested in this genre have at least one decent game now and maybe another in the future if they're lucky.
posted by Mitrovarr at 8:22 PM on February 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
No Man's Sky and Eve Valkyrie are two others in this specific genre that are upcoming soonish, and many other space-type games, including the just announced Asteroids thing from Sony, are in development. The genre is totally in the early days of a renaissance.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:39 PM on February 11, 2015
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:39 PM on February 11, 2015
The genre is totally in the early days of a renaissance.
There's a bit of fear in the EVE Online community over that, heh.
CCP, EVE's developer, is...uh...not so great at executing on software projects. They're also not so hot at balancing their game, although that has turned around somewhat with the hiring of a few expert players (the devs are notoriously bad at their own game).
EVE's subscription numbers are in a bit of a slump right now, although not bad enough to sound the sirens. But there is a sense among some of the players that these new games could suck away a lot of the more casual players that form the bulk of the subscribers. Not only does that put CCP in a bad position wrt to income (they're already bleeding developers to Riot), but it empties the game environment of player activity, potentially triggering a snowball effect.
It a worrying state of affairs if you're into EVE's style of mandatory pvp and constant trickery, because it's a sure thing that none of the newcomers will be nearly as hardcore (because that style of game chases off 90% of the people who try it).
posted by ryanrs at 10:37 PM on February 11, 2015
There's a bit of fear in the EVE Online community over that, heh.
CCP, EVE's developer, is...uh...not so great at executing on software projects. They're also not so hot at balancing their game, although that has turned around somewhat with the hiring of a few expert players (the devs are notoriously bad at their own game).
EVE's subscription numbers are in a bit of a slump right now, although not bad enough to sound the sirens. But there is a sense among some of the players that these new games could suck away a lot of the more casual players that form the bulk of the subscribers. Not only does that put CCP in a bad position wrt to income (they're already bleeding developers to Riot), but it empties the game environment of player activity, potentially triggering a snowball effect.
It a worrying state of affairs if you're into EVE's style of mandatory pvp and constant trickery, because it's a sure thing that none of the newcomers will be nearly as hardcore (because that style of game chases off 90% of the people who try it).
posted by ryanrs at 10:37 PM on February 11, 2015
CCP isn't the company you want to look up to when it comes to delivering. Just ask fans of the World of Darkness.
posted by PenDevil at 11:08 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by PenDevil at 11:08 PM on February 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Asteroids thing from Sony
Sorry, Atari, not Sony.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:42 PM on February 11, 2015
Sorry, Atari, not Sony.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:42 PM on February 11, 2015
stavrosthewonderchicken: "No Man's Sky and Eve Valkyrie are two others in this specific genre that are upcoming soonish,"
You keep neglecting Limit Theory stav why is this
The game is in danger of an impending beta, but I just enjoy watching the developer's videos.
posted by vanar sena at 12:41 AM on February 12, 2015
You keep neglecting Limit Theory stav why is this
The game is in danger of an impending beta, but I just enjoy watching the developer's videos.
posted by vanar sena at 12:41 AM on February 12, 2015
CCP isn't the company you want to look up to when it comes to delivering. Just ask fans of the World of Darkness.
They've given Onyx Path a relatively free hand, so I'm happy with it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:04 AM on February 12, 2015
They've given Onyx Path a relatively free hand, so I'm happy with it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:04 AM on February 12, 2015
You keep neglecting Limit Theory stav why is this
I was on my phone and also my brain no longer enjoys the elasticity and youthful elan to which I was once accustomed.
I also forgot about the Homeworld remaster, Sid Meier's Starships, Into The Stars, Adr1ft, Rebel Galaxy, Halfway, Ancient Space, Enemy Starfighter, The Wings of St Nazaire, and probably a whole bunch more!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:26 AM on February 12, 2015
I was on my phone and also my brain no longer enjoys the elasticity and youthful elan to which I was once accustomed.
I also forgot about the Homeworld remaster, Sid Meier's Starships, Into The Stars, Adr1ft, Rebel Galaxy, Halfway, Ancient Space, Enemy Starfighter, The Wings of St Nazaire, and probably a whole bunch more!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:26 AM on February 12, 2015
To clarify, when I said "buy this in pre-release because once the game's out it there will be no way to ever buy it again!" in Star Citizen, I meant specifically "buy this ship in pre-release". I'm under the impression some purchases are only available before the game is released, and or that some perqs were only available to very early purchasers. That seems like a form of sales pressure, "buy now or forever lose the opportunity". But honestly I'm pretty unclear and confused about all the things one can buy with Star Citizen, so maybe someone will set me straight on this point.
Over on MeFightClub we're also talking about the pre-purchase trend and several people have pointed out that this new funding model has led to a new diversity of games being made, at various budgets and in various genres. Mitrovarr is right that this particular Elite/Freelancer genre has laid fallow for a few years, and if crowdfunding is the way to get it going again that's great. It just seems so ripe for abuse, whether deliberate fraud, screwing customers because you got bored making your game (Godus), screwing customers because you have no idea how to make the game you sold (Clang), or simply not doing a very good job of doing what you promised (many, many examples).
posted by Nelson at 3:54 AM on February 12, 2015
Over on MeFightClub we're also talking about the pre-purchase trend and several people have pointed out that this new funding model has led to a new diversity of games being made, at various budgets and in various genres. Mitrovarr is right that this particular Elite/Freelancer genre has laid fallow for a few years, and if crowdfunding is the way to get it going again that's great. It just seems so ripe for abuse, whether deliberate fraud, screwing customers because you got bored making your game (Godus), screwing customers because you have no idea how to make the game you sold (Clang), or simply not doing a very good job of doing what you promised (many, many examples).
posted by Nelson at 3:54 AM on February 12, 2015
To clarify, when I said "buy this in pre-release because once the game's out it there will be no way to ever buy it again!" in Star Citizen, I meant specifically "buy this ship in pre-release". I'm under the impression some purchases are only available before the game is released, and or that some perqs were only available to very early purchasers.
You might be right, Nelson, but as far as I know, anything that actually matters (like ships)that is available now, for cash money, intended to support development, will be able to earned ingame after launch, when the cash store will go away entirely.
Part of the confusion, I think, might be that the S:C site has a 'pledge store' and a 'voyager direct' store at the moment, if I recall the name correctly. The idea, as I understand it, is that all of the pledge store stuff (ships, mostly) can be bought with cash now if you want to, and the money is intended to support development, and it will go away at launch in favour of the ingame non-cash economy. The 'voyager direct' store uses the ingame currency (some of which everybody who buys one of the game packages gets and which will be earnable ingame), which has decorative items and a growing set of ship components (guns, shields, etc), and will transition smoothly into the ingame fiction after launch, and subsume the current pledge store when it switches to ingame currency. Chris Roberts has been super adamant that there will be no real-world-currency to ingame-currency conversion mechanism (as there is in Eve, I think) -- after launch you won't be able to buy ingame items, ships or currency with actual real-world dollars or euros or whatever.
I think it can be a little daunting and confusing for people who want to get into it at this point what they need to buy in the profusion of ships and packages and stuff, and that's not great, but it's relatively easy to figure out from the site with a few minutes of poking around.
It is true that early backers got some stuff for backing early -- lifetime insurance for their ships ingame, a set of personal combat armor if I recall, some hangar toys like a fishtank and basically just flair a few items, that do not have any more function than hats in TF2. Nothing that really has much intrinsic value either ingame or out, that I can tell. As far as I'm concerned, that stuff is more of a thank you gesture than anything else, and harmless.
I haven't seen anything that is "buy now or miss out" at all, that I can recall, other than those very minor and inconsequential gewgaws that early backers got. Arguably the free lifetime ship insurance is a significant perk, but I expect it'll work much like it does in Elite:Dangerous, and actually paying the 'insurance' for a lost ship isn't an onerous thing at all, so: shrug there, kinda. It'll be nice as an early backer to not have to worry about it, but it's not a game changer in any way I don't think.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:42 PM on February 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
You might be right, Nelson, but as far as I know, anything that actually matters (like ships)that is available now, for cash money, intended to support development, will be able to earned ingame after launch, when the cash store will go away entirely.
Part of the confusion, I think, might be that the S:C site has a 'pledge store' and a 'voyager direct' store at the moment, if I recall the name correctly. The idea, as I understand it, is that all of the pledge store stuff (ships, mostly) can be bought with cash now if you want to, and the money is intended to support development, and it will go away at launch in favour of the ingame non-cash economy. The 'voyager direct' store uses the ingame currency (some of which everybody who buys one of the game packages gets and which will be earnable ingame), which has decorative items and a growing set of ship components (guns, shields, etc), and will transition smoothly into the ingame fiction after launch, and subsume the current pledge store when it switches to ingame currency. Chris Roberts has been super adamant that there will be no real-world-currency to ingame-currency conversion mechanism (as there is in Eve, I think) -- after launch you won't be able to buy ingame items, ships or currency with actual real-world dollars or euros or whatever.
I think it can be a little daunting and confusing for people who want to get into it at this point what they need to buy in the profusion of ships and packages and stuff, and that's not great, but it's relatively easy to figure out from the site with a few minutes of poking around.
It is true that early backers got some stuff for backing early -- lifetime insurance for their ships ingame, a set of personal combat armor if I recall, some hangar toys like a fishtank and basically just flair a few items, that do not have any more function than hats in TF2. Nothing that really has much intrinsic value either ingame or out, that I can tell. As far as I'm concerned, that stuff is more of a thank you gesture than anything else, and harmless.
I haven't seen anything that is "buy now or miss out" at all, that I can recall, other than those very minor and inconsequential gewgaws that early backers got. Arguably the free lifetime ship insurance is a significant perk, but I expect it'll work much like it does in Elite:Dangerous, and actually paying the 'insurance' for a lost ship isn't an onerous thing at all, so: shrug there, kinda. It'll be nice as an early backer to not have to worry about it, but it's not a game changer in any way I don't think.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:42 PM on February 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
All that said, I am deeply, deeply in love with Elite Dangerous, which is out now, and which many of us over at MefightClub are playing, so if you have a space game itch that needs scratching, I'd recommend you hold off on Star Citizen and jump into Elite with us! (But be aware that Elite is an experience that some (like me) love, but many find unrewarding because there's an amazing universe to explore but not, to be honest, all that much game qua game.)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:45 PM on February 12, 2015
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:45 PM on February 12, 2015
sorry for the lengthy derail
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:45 PM on February 12, 2015
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:45 PM on February 12, 2015
never apologize about talking about Elite, let's talk about it until we die
posted by cortex at 5:45 PM on February 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cortex at 5:45 PM on February 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
no real-world-currency to ingame-currency conversion mechanism (as there is in Eve, I think)
EVE has one of the most strictly enforced no-real-money policies of any MMO.
What it does have is a robust way for one person to pay for someone else's monthly subscription in return for that person giving them in-game items or space currency. The difference between this and a cash shop is that there is no incentive to alter the game design because all transactions are revenue-neutral to the game developer. Also, by giving casual gold buyers a secure, acceptable way to buy items, this system sucks the wind out of industrial-scale gold farmers and the economy-wrecking effects they create.
EVE's subscription system is the only MMO system I've seen that avoids distorting the game from both the developer side and the gold farmer side. I'm very surprised that no other games have copied the design.
As for Star Citizen, there already exists a fairly large black market for in-game items, as well as other schemes like LTI laundering. If RSI maintains their current laissez-faire attitude, they will be flooded by commercial farmers.
posted by ryanrs at 5:47 PM on February 12, 2015
EVE has one of the most strictly enforced no-real-money policies of any MMO.
What it does have is a robust way for one person to pay for someone else's monthly subscription in return for that person giving them in-game items or space currency. The difference between this and a cash shop is that there is no incentive to alter the game design because all transactions are revenue-neutral to the game developer. Also, by giving casual gold buyers a secure, acceptable way to buy items, this system sucks the wind out of industrial-scale gold farmers and the economy-wrecking effects they create.
EVE's subscription system is the only MMO system I've seen that avoids distorting the game from both the developer side and the gold farmer side. I'm very surprised that no other games have copied the design.
As for Star Citizen, there already exists a fairly large black market for in-game items, as well as other schemes like LTI laundering. If RSI maintains their current laissez-faire attitude, they will be flooded by commercial farmers.
posted by ryanrs at 5:47 PM on February 12, 2015
I'll take your word for it -- Eve utterly mystifies me, and MMOs in general aren't something I 'get' or have any experience with.
As for Star Citizen, there already exists a fairly large black market for in-game items
I've heard that. I have no idea why or how that would work, but people who are heavily invested (pun intended) in games can do strange things, it is true.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:07 PM on February 12, 2015
As for Star Citizen, there already exists a fairly large black market for in-game items
I've heard that. I have no idea why or how that would work, but people who are heavily invested (pun intended) in games can do strange things, it is true.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:07 PM on February 12, 2015
The best part of EVE's system though are the whales. You get guys dropping a thousand bucks or more on the game, buying up powerful characters and ships, and generally comporting themselves with the confident swagger of someone at the top of the game. Then they get scammed within an inch of their life, losing everything they bought. It's hilarious.
Only afterward do they find a helpful and sympathetic veteran that takes the time to explain what they did wrong, and how to rebuy the items with hundreds more RL dollars, and avoid all the scams. Then the helpful vet scams them AGAIN and the cycle repeats.
It usually ends with the whale making RL threats to the scammers, getting reported, and getting banned.
<3 EVE
posted by ryanrs at 6:21 PM on February 12, 2015
Only afterward do they find a helpful and sympathetic veteran that takes the time to explain what they did wrong, and how to rebuy the items with hundreds more RL dollars, and avoid all the scams. Then the helpful vet scams them AGAIN and the cycle repeats.
It usually ends with the whale making RL threats to the scammers, getting reported, and getting banned.
<3 EVE
posted by ryanrs at 6:21 PM on February 12, 2015
never apologize about talking about Elite, let's talk about it until we die
how do you feel about fanfare threads on patch days? hahahaonlyserious.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:02 PM on February 12, 2015
how do you feel about fanfare threads on patch days? hahahaonlyserious.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:02 PM on February 12, 2015
I really wish all of the new games in the space exploration and trading didn't feel the need to crowbar in multiplayer or be MMOs. Those both result in massive grindfests and remove the possibility of having a good story mode.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:24 PM on February 12, 2015
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:24 PM on February 12, 2015
Peter Molyneux interview: 'It's over, I will not speak to the press again'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:18 AM on February 13, 2015
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:18 AM on February 13, 2015
That's a long time coming- the man's always been his own worst enemy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:47 AM on February 13, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:47 AM on February 13, 2015
Peter Molyneux has admitted regret and culpability; he was clearly in distress throughout the interview – an interview he told us would will be his last. An hour before publication, however, we discovered that he had spoken to the gaming news site Rock, Paper, Shotgun the day before, and had given their interviewer the same impression – that he would no longer be speaking to the press. He has also spoken to at least one other site, seemingly on the same afternoon as our discussion. Another trail of broken assurances.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:08 AM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:08 AM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
And here's the Rock, Paper, Shotgun one... Peter Molyneux Interview: “I haven’t got a reputation in this industry any more”
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:05 AM on February 13, 2015
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 5:05 AM on February 13, 2015
"Note to self: Don't agree to interviews with RPS. Well, it's not like I have anything to talk about, nor do interviews anyway these days.. But you know what I'm getting at." -- Notch
posted by sparkletone at 5:40 AM on February 13, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 5:40 AM on February 13, 2015
Wow, that RPS interview is brutal, but a fun read!
It starts out with the question "Do you think that you’re a pathological liar?"
Molyneux then claims he's not going to make claims and then go back on them.
Then he says he's not doing Press or inviting people to the studios.
Then he invites the interviewer to the studio.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:30 AM on February 13, 2015
It starts out with the question "Do you think that you’re a pathological liar?"
Molyneux then claims he's not going to make claims and then go back on them.
Then he says he's not doing Press or inviting people to the studios.
Then he invites the interviewer to the studio.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:30 AM on February 13, 2015
That RPS interview... Woof.
I think the questions are pretty valid but I think the tone is unnecessary; if you gave this guy money after B&W, Fable, etc, shame on you, not him. It's not necessary to have a public hating.
posted by selfnoise at 6:45 AM on February 13, 2015
I think the questions are pretty valid but I think the tone is unnecessary; if you gave this guy money after B&W, Fable, etc, shame on you, not him. It's not necessary to have a public hating.
posted by selfnoise at 6:45 AM on February 13, 2015
Eh, Molyneux has more than earned some tough questions being thrown his way. Perhaps it'll make him more reluctant to overpromise and underdeliver in the future (I know, I know, who am I kidding).
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:04 AM on February 13, 2015
posted by longdaysjourney at 9:04 AM on February 13, 2015
Wow that interview is a ride.
Peter Molyneux: There have been many many times, many times in my career where I said things I shouldn’t have said about acorns and oak trees and dogs and god knows what else. But I promise you John, I only said them because at that time I truly believed them.posted by books for weapons at 9:29 AM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
RPS: Do you think you wanted them to be true rather than believed they were true?
Peter Molyneux: I think a lot of times, especially a few years ago, I would say things almost as I thought things, and the team used to really get aggressive, that they would say, ‘Oh god Peter, this is the first time we know that we’re going to have this feature in the game.’
I had to read it in a few chunks, a lot of cringing and weird feelings. I feel for Molyneux since it seems like he's really sort of having a fraction of a meltdown at the moment, but that seems more or less the result of people actually directly calling bullshit and him not being like emotionally prepared to have that happen more than anything.
It's good I guess that he's at least aware to some extent that his pie-in-the-sky thinking-out-loud enthusiasm is a problem for him and the people who work with him, but it's sort of distressing how much of that interview was flailing around in the face of direct contradictions and parsing the difference between lying and just consistently saying things that turn out not to be true even when they turned out not to be true in the same way a dozen times before.
posted by cortex at 10:11 AM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's good I guess that he's at least aware to some extent that his pie-in-the-sky thinking-out-loud enthusiasm is a problem for him and the people who work with him, but it's sort of distressing how much of that interview was flailing around in the face of direct contradictions and parsing the difference between lying and just consistently saying things that turn out not to be true even when they turned out not to be true in the same way a dozen times before.
posted by cortex at 10:11 AM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Still nothing in that RPS interview as harsh and damning as the thing Moleneux said himself (that sparkletone quoted above):
"There's this overwhelming urge to over-promise because it's such a harsh rule: if you're one penny short of your target then you don't get it. And of course in this instance, the behaviour is incredibly destructive, which is 'Christ, we've only got 10 days to go and we've got to make £100,000, for f**k's sake, lets just say anything'. So I'm not sure I would do that again."
Asking whether he's a pathological liar is just about the most charitable response you could make to this. Because it sure sounds like he deliberately made false promises in order to get people to give him money.
posted by straight at 10:26 AM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
"There's this overwhelming urge to over-promise because it's such a harsh rule: if you're one penny short of your target then you don't get it. And of course in this instance, the behaviour is incredibly destructive, which is 'Christ, we've only got 10 days to go and we've got to make £100,000, for f**k's sake, lets just say anything'. So I'm not sure I would do that again."
Asking whether he's a pathological liar is just about the most charitable response you could make to this. Because it sure sounds like he deliberately made false promises in order to get people to give him money.
posted by straight at 10:26 AM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I haven't read the interview, but maybe it's one of those things that feels more comfortable if you're one of the people this guy just ripped off.
posted by ryanrs at 12:57 PM on February 13, 2015
posted by ryanrs at 12:57 PM on February 13, 2015
It's worth reading; the discomfort doesn't depend on feeling personally burned or not on Godus, I don't think, and I doubt being proximately angry about that would do much to mitigate the weirdness of the intimate intensity of Walker's questioning and Molyneux's emotional, flailing inconsistency.
posted by cortex at 1:07 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cortex at 1:07 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Another (final) interview with Peter Molyneux.
posted by dng at 3:13 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dng at 3:13 PM on February 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd understand the arguments about "you can never predict how long a game will take to make" or "you can never predict how much money it will cost to develop a game" from someone with years of industry experience who sometimes finished games early, sometimes late, sometimes on time, sometimes under budget, sometimes over budget, and sometimes on budget. But if you're always late and always over budget, your problem is not the inherent lack of predictability of budgets and timeframes, it's your ability to predict them.
I also enjoy the contrast of "we'd ask for 100% contingency if we could, but we can't/won't/don't" versus "We thought it would be finished in 7 months, but it's taken 3 years, and the PC version is still at 53% completion". So, ideally, you'd have asked for 100% contingency but in reality what you needed would have been 1,029% contingency? And you think this is just par for the course for "truly creative" people?
I don't think Molyneux is a pathological liar. But he is a pathological wronger. He has strong convictions about things, and he is amazing consistently wrong about them. There is absolutely no reason to listen to anything he says about the future, be it next year, next week, or ten minutes from now.
posted by Bugbread at 8:30 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I also enjoy the contrast of "we'd ask for 100% contingency if we could, but we can't/won't/don't" versus "We thought it would be finished in 7 months, but it's taken 3 years, and the PC version is still at 53% completion". So, ideally, you'd have asked for 100% contingency but in reality what you needed would have been 1,029% contingency? And you think this is just par for the course for "truly creative" people?
I don't think Molyneux is a pathological liar. But he is a pathological wronger. He has strong convictions about things, and he is amazing consistently wrong about them. There is absolutely no reason to listen to anything he says about the future, be it next year, next week, or ten minutes from now.
posted by Bugbread at 8:30 PM on February 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
if you gave this guy money after B&W, Fable, etc, shame on you, not him. It's not necessary to have a public hating.
No, shame on him. He's the fraud. And apparently it's necessary to have a public hating because it's the only way to spread the word far and wide that Peter Molyneux is a fraud. It's a shame because he also has flashes of brilliance in game design. People like him need to have partners who are good at running a business.
posted by Nelson at 8:49 PM on February 13, 2015
No, shame on him. He's the fraud. And apparently it's necessary to have a public hating because it's the only way to spread the word far and wide that Peter Molyneux is a fraud. It's a shame because he also has flashes of brilliance in game design. People like him need to have partners who are good at running a business.
posted by Nelson at 8:49 PM on February 13, 2015
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posted by longbaugh at 4:13 AM on February 11, 2015 [17 favorites]