If debt is invisible, how do you photograph it?
June 16, 2015 1:03 PM Subscribe
Inspired by Flemish portrait paintings, in which the wealthy would have themselves painted with all their worldly possessions around them, photographer Brittany M. Powell realized that, by photographing indebted people in their households, she was also capturing their debt.
This is interesting, yes. I am sad that someone could get that much debt from a massage therapy program. I hope these people all pay off their debt soon. I think it would be healthy to divert some "anti-bad food" conversations towards "anti-bad debt" conversations.
posted by rebent at 1:13 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by rebent at 1:13 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
> She found that some readers have a negative reaction to the surroundings in their photograph – for example, saying they can’t be sympathetic to an indebted person with such a nice sofa.
I had a feeling that was coming. "There weren't any nice sofas in debtor's prisons, but of course our society doesn't value personal responsibility enough to bring *those* back. THANKS OBAMA."
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:17 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
I had a feeling that was coming. "There weren't any nice sofas in debtor's prisons, but of course our society doesn't value personal responsibility enough to bring *those* back. THANKS OBAMA."
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:17 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
Unfortunately you can't photograph the interest, which is what really kills you.
posted by Segundus at 1:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 1:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
Unlike in the States, Canada didn't experience a housing crash in 2007/08 or so, so, for those who were lucky to purchase around 2004 or so, housing values have roughly doubled.
What that means is that people use their homes as ATM's, borrowing against equity to do home renos, buy cars, buy big trucks, buy boats. Everyone always says "I wonder what's going to happen to these people when interest rates rise" but so far, so good!
Man, I hate shiny pickup trucks.
posted by Nevin at 1:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
What that means is that people use their homes as ATM's, borrowing against equity to do home renos, buy cars, buy big trucks, buy boats. Everyone always says "I wonder what's going to happen to these people when interest rates rise" but so far, so good!
Man, I hate shiny pickup trucks.
posted by Nevin at 1:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bit of a derail, but as obnoxious as they were* I kind of have a soft spot for those "rich people with all their stuff" paintings because they're so over the top they're cross over into unintentional humour and everyone in them is just as dead as the poor people of the time. This one's my favourite, but if anyone has better/more ridiculous examples have at it.
* they're the 16th century equivalent of this
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
* they're the 16th century equivalent of this
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
Boy did these make me sad, especially because so many of them were things like "I was in debt because I couldn't get a job so I went back to school so I COULD get a job" which is something I totally, 100% understand. It's largely people who actually tried to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and then realized they were going nowhere because they were just tugging on their own feet.
I don't think it's not sad in the other cases (I do), but this is just a staggering demonstration of how we keep lying to people telling them it's their fault they aren't getting anywhere and then punishing them when they try. I mean, all the lawyers I know tell people not to go to law school. Doctors tell people not to go to med school. Teachers tell people not to become educators. Public sector pensions are under attack. What is everyone supposed to DO? And then when someone can't figure out the answer to this impossible question, people get mad because their couch is too nice.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:29 PM on June 16, 2015 [66 favorites]
I don't think it's not sad in the other cases (I do), but this is just a staggering demonstration of how we keep lying to people telling them it's their fault they aren't getting anywhere and then punishing them when they try. I mean, all the lawyers I know tell people not to go to law school. Doctors tell people not to go to med school. Teachers tell people not to become educators. Public sector pensions are under attack. What is everyone supposed to DO? And then when someone can't figure out the answer to this impossible question, people get mad because their couch is too nice.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:29 PM on June 16, 2015 [66 favorites]
Yes, student loans are the great snake oil shill of our age on the young. Massive debt for often minimal prospects. Here is my metric: If you aren't certifiably brilliant and/or offered a scholarship, simply go to the local community college. Graduate debt-free and with something in-hand that might actually get you a job...
posted by jim in austin at 1:30 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 1:30 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
rebent, absolutely! There is a whole industry that is devoted to convincing the young and financially unsavvy, that they should go into debt just for the sake of "building credit" and never mind that the loan is usurious and what they're getting isn't worth the debt they're taking on. I am horrified by what people tell me they got into.
posted by elizilla at 1:30 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by elizilla at 1:30 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Engineering! Finance! Uh...home health assistants! Some vague idea of a "trade"!
Plus, these are all things that require a lot of training! I would actually be happy to move into some sort of tech related field (although as a woman I keep being told I shouldn't because I'll be harassed endlessly and not taken seriously which makes it a lot less tempting), but I absolutely 100% cannot afford to go back to school to get a degree or training in anything and I need to keep working shitty jobs to get through which don't look phenomenal on my resume or set me up for long-term career success.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:40 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Plus, these are all things that require a lot of training! I would actually be happy to move into some sort of tech related field (although as a woman I keep being told I shouldn't because I'll be harassed endlessly and not taken seriously which makes it a lot less tempting), but I absolutely 100% cannot afford to go back to school to get a degree or training in anything and I need to keep working shitty jobs to get through which don't look phenomenal on my resume or set me up for long-term career success.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:40 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Most of these student debts should just be wiped out. Banks will take a haircut, but it will be worth it for everyone in the long run.
posted by cell divide at 1:47 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by cell divide at 1:47 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
if given the choice between getting a huge college debt or installing an indoor pool, go for the pool.
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on June 16, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on June 16, 2015
Most of these student debts should just be wiped out. Banks will take a haircut, but it will be worth it for everyone in the long run.
TBH if you're a bank still willing to give out student loans in 2015 expecting them to be paid back you pretty much deserve to take the haircut.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:01 PM on June 16, 2015
TBH if you're a bank still willing to give out student loans in 2015 expecting them to be paid back you pretty much deserve to take the haircut.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:01 PM on June 16, 2015
This is my favorite comment: I saw a few of them have degrees I cannot believe they were so stupid to take. In many instances their handwriting sucks too. Way to make it clear that you don't have a strong opinion on education debt so much as you just really want to be negative and judgmental about something on the Internet.
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:02 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:02 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
> What that means is that people use their homes as ATM's, borrowing against equity to do home renos, buy cars, buy big trucks, buy boats. Everyone always says "I wonder what's going to happen to these people when interest rates rise" but so far, so good!
If Canada ever suffers a U.S.-style housing crash the entire country will be fucked, and as such the Powers That Be will probably do everything they can to avoid raising interest rates. Meanwhile, if you were dumb enough to actually save money and avoid debt you're stuck feeling like a sucker.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:12 PM on June 16, 2015
If Canada ever suffers a U.S.-style housing crash the entire country will be fucked, and as such the Powers That Be will probably do everything they can to avoid raising interest rates. Meanwhile, if you were dumb enough to actually save money and avoid debt you're stuck feeling like a sucker.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:12 PM on June 16, 2015
Banks will take a haircut, but it will be worth it for everyone in the long run.
Ahahahahahaha. The Federal Government guarantees 97% of student loans. The taxpayer is on the hook for $1.2 trillion to private lenders. So they don't give a shit what happens. They're getting their money come hell or high water.
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ahahahahahaha. The Federal Government guarantees 97% of student loans. The taxpayer is on the hook for $1.2 trillion to private lenders. So they don't give a shit what happens. They're getting their money come hell or high water.
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Even our careers and our healthy bodies are often made possible through taking on debt.
It would be interesting to me to see a similar project done focusing specifically on people with health problems and medical-related debt. Most homeless people have serious health problems that make conventional success (or even unconventional success) out of their reach. As I understand it, most bankruptcies are due to medical debt, not student loans (yes, I realize you aren't supposed to be able to write off student loans -- I have also been told otherwise and linked to a web page that suggested, yes, sometimes you can get out of student loans through bankruptcy, so I don't know how true that is).
posted by Michele in California at 2:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
It would be interesting to me to see a similar project done focusing specifically on people with health problems and medical-related debt. Most homeless people have serious health problems that make conventional success (or even unconventional success) out of their reach. As I understand it, most bankruptcies are due to medical debt, not student loans (yes, I realize you aren't supposed to be able to write off student loans -- I have also been told otherwise and linked to a web page that suggested, yes, sometimes you can get out of student loans through bankruptcy, so I don't know how true that is).
posted by Michele in California at 2:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can totally sympathize with these folks. The economy in Canada was terrible when I graduated from university in the mid-90's. 10% unemployment. People were lining up (well, I did) to get jobs as dishwashers and short-order cooks. A lot of my friends in the 90's did jobs as interns, or went back to school to get their Masters degrees.
It really, really sucked, and I left the country. I paid off my $30K in student loans by working a couple of part-time jobs after my day job. That was before we had kids, though, so it was a lot easier. The best thing for me right now is the Internet. I have clients all over the world. It would be nice to have a dental plan again, though.
Anyway, things were rougher 20 years ago, and things were *really* rough 30 years ago when interest rates skyrocketed.
My only advice is to keep on keeping on. It worked for my parents and it's working for me.
posted by Nevin at 2:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
It really, really sucked, and I left the country. I paid off my $30K in student loans by working a couple of part-time jobs after my day job. That was before we had kids, though, so it was a lot easier. The best thing for me right now is the Internet. I have clients all over the world. It would be nice to have a dental plan again, though.
Anyway, things were rougher 20 years ago, and things were *really* rough 30 years ago when interest rates skyrocketed.
My only advice is to keep on keeping on. It worked for my parents and it's working for me.
posted by Nevin at 2:27 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
The taxpayer is on the hook for $1.2 trillion to private lenders.
That's trickle-up economics for you, right there. Brilliant.
posted by Dashy at 2:30 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's trickle-up economics for you, right there. Brilliant.
posted by Dashy at 2:30 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Banks will take a haircut,
Something like 90% of student loan debt is guaranteed by the government. I'd imagine most of the debt is owned by pension funds and the like. IOW, I doubt banks would take a hit.
posted by jpe at 2:41 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Something like 90% of student loan debt is guaranteed by the government. I'd imagine most of the debt is owned by pension funds and the like. IOW, I doubt banks would take a hit.
posted by jpe at 2:41 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
“I thought having that depiction would challenge the viewer to question their associations that they have with people and their belonging in light of their debt,” she said, noting that many of the comments she has seen online in response to the work has been that people should sell their possessions in order to offset their debt.
What gets me about this reaction by people is that I can guaran-damn-tee you that they too are in a shitload of debt as well but live in a land of denial. At least these folks are willing, despite being embarrassed (which they shouldn't be), to show you the honesty of their lives. Those same naysayers would probably be appalled if someone applied the same critique to their own lives.
posted by Kitteh at 2:49 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
What gets me about this reaction by people is that I can guaran-damn-tee you that they too are in a shitload of debt as well but live in a land of denial. At least these folks are willing, despite being embarrassed (which they shouldn't be), to show you the honesty of their lives. Those same naysayers would probably be appalled if someone applied the same critique to their own lives.
posted by Kitteh at 2:49 PM on June 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
I don't grudge them a couch or two, but it seems like most of them sure have lovely apartments.....not to say they might not need them for the safe location, or their mental health, or to save money on transportation, or something.
But some of them may have made the choice that they refuse to live below this level, and thus they have the option of re-thinking that choice.
I wonder if the ones with crummy apartments didn't want to be photographed. Which is, of course, sadder.
posted by serena15221 at 4:25 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
But some of them may have made the choice that they refuse to live below this level, and thus they have the option of re-thinking that choice.
I wonder if the ones with crummy apartments didn't want to be photographed. Which is, of course, sadder.
posted by serena15221 at 4:25 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
but it seems like most of them sure have lovely apartments
When homelessness gets discussed, people are often scathingly critical of expensive smart phones or other seeming luxury items, as if the homeless person in question was born naked as a jay bird just last week and must have somehow blown scads of money on this luxury item. The reality is that they are leftover from a better time and it may hurt less to keep the Verizon contract than to pay the cost of terminating it early only to have no phone thereafter.
Similarly, many people in a pickle find it is less painful to keep the apartment they rented during less lean times. Moving costs a lot and it is hard to qualify for a place at all if you are unemployed. If you can somehow keep paying the rent, even by using credit card advances, you at least aren't out in the street (yet) and can keep hoping that THIS will be the month you finally get a new job or some lump sum of monies owed you or whatever.
posted by Michele in California at 4:39 PM on June 16, 2015 [38 favorites]
When homelessness gets discussed, people are often scathingly critical of expensive smart phones or other seeming luxury items, as if the homeless person in question was born naked as a jay bird just last week and must have somehow blown scads of money on this luxury item. The reality is that they are leftover from a better time and it may hurt less to keep the Verizon contract than to pay the cost of terminating it early only to have no phone thereafter.
Similarly, many people in a pickle find it is less painful to keep the apartment they rented during less lean times. Moving costs a lot and it is hard to qualify for a place at all if you are unemployed. If you can somehow keep paying the rent, even by using credit card advances, you at least aren't out in the street (yet) and can keep hoping that THIS will be the month you finally get a new job or some lump sum of monies owed you or whatever.
posted by Michele in California at 4:39 PM on June 16, 2015 [38 favorites]
I don't know what you'd expect their apartments to look like? Filthy hovels with no furniture? You can even find furniture on the street, and unless it's REALLY NICE STUFF, there is almost no resale value for most of the possessions of most people.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 4:45 PM on June 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by jeweled accumulation at 4:45 PM on June 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
If you're an American And you have money troubles you are obligated to sell all all your worldly possessions, now matter for how little and how long it takes, and wear only sackcloth and eat only ashes (or chili! Did you know you can make it once and eat it all week! Just like someone in jail!) and never ever ever spend a single dime on anything or accept any gifts or charity then maybe, if you're stoic but dirt-caked enough, we might think you deserve to be thought of as needy.
I mean we won't give you anything, but we'll be convinced you're not faking it.
People faking poverty to claim minor support is the single worst thing an American can think of. It's easier to forgive a murderer then someone getting an extra 20$ food credit a month they might not, technically speaking, need to keep dying.
posted by The Whelk at 5:04 PM on June 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
I mean we won't give you anything, but we'll be convinced you're not faking it.
People faking poverty to claim minor support is the single worst thing an American can think of. It's easier to forgive a murderer then someone getting an extra 20$ food credit a month they might not, technically speaking, need to keep dying.
posted by The Whelk at 5:04 PM on June 16, 2015 [35 favorites]
I didn't think their apartments were extravagant. If anything, most of the subjects had very bare homes imo.
I've got student loan debt, but just from right here in this chair, you can see my rolled up yoga mat, and magnets that I got as momentos on a bunch of different trips, and a fish tank that I keep solely for the pleasure of it. All that stuff represents significant, non-essential spending! But if I had forgone exercise, vacations, and pets, I would be barely any closer to paying off my debt and my life would be immeasurably worse. Spending that money was a good decision.
Have you ever read The Necklace? It's a short story about a woman who destroys her life trying to pay back a debt, and how futile and tragic it is that she wastes her life that way. I think it's perfectly fine if paying back debt isn't at the top of a person's priority list. I think that housing actually should be a higher priority. But YMMV.
posted by rue72 at 5:09 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've got student loan debt, but just from right here in this chair, you can see my rolled up yoga mat, and magnets that I got as momentos on a bunch of different trips, and a fish tank that I keep solely for the pleasure of it. All that stuff represents significant, non-essential spending! But if I had forgone exercise, vacations, and pets, I would be barely any closer to paying off my debt and my life would be immeasurably worse. Spending that money was a good decision.
Have you ever read The Necklace? It's a short story about a woman who destroys her life trying to pay back a debt, and how futile and tragic it is that she wastes her life that way. I think it's perfectly fine if paying back debt isn't at the top of a person's priority list. I think that housing actually should be a higher priority. But YMMV.
posted by rue72 at 5:09 PM on June 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
but it seems like most of them sure have lovely apartments
A bunch of the nice apartments looked San Francisco to me, it's very likely they are nice but have 4 adults living in 2-3 bedrooms with a room kept empty to Air B&B. At least that's what my friend who lived there did when she spent two years fighting to get a better job. When thing got extra tough they'd also rent out their bedrooms and sleep on the couch or at friends, having that option is really the only thing that let them stay in San Francisco where the jobs they wanted were. Things have gotten better since, but when I saw the nice apartments my first thought is there's three people waiting for the photographer to finish so they can get to the kitchen.
posted by lepus at 5:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
A bunch of the nice apartments looked San Francisco to me, it's very likely they are nice but have 4 adults living in 2-3 bedrooms with a room kept empty to Air B&B. At least that's what my friend who lived there did when she spent two years fighting to get a better job. When thing got extra tough they'd also rent out their bedrooms and sleep on the couch or at friends, having that option is really the only thing that let them stay in San Francisco where the jobs they wanted were. Things have gotten better since, but when I saw the nice apartments my first thought is there's three people waiting for the photographer to finish so they can get to the kitchen.
posted by lepus at 5:26 PM on June 16, 2015 [6 favorites]
If you aren't certifiably brilliant and/or offered a scholarship, simply go to the local community college. Graduate debt-free and with something in-hand that might actually get you a job...
Which AA degrees do you think will actually get people a job?
posted by Squeak Attack at 5:58 PM on June 16, 2015
Which AA degrees do you think will actually get people a job?
posted by Squeak Attack at 5:58 PM on June 16, 2015
Unlike in the States, Canada didn't experience a housing crash in 2007/08 or so, so, for those who were lucky to purchase around 2004 or so, housing values have roughly doubled.
What that means is that people use their homes as ATM's
This does not sound like it's going to end well.
posted by Asparagus at 6:34 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
What that means is that people use their homes as ATM's
This does not sound like it's going to end well.
posted by Asparagus at 6:34 PM on June 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just wanted to add that I think Brittany is unofficially one of 'MeFi's own', as I'm pretty certain she's been along to a MetaFilter meetup or two -- I've been good friends with her for many years now and she came along to some of the farewell events when I moved to England. I'm overjoyed to see her work continuing to get the attention it deserves. Thanks for making this post!
posted by iamkimiam at 6:36 PM on June 16, 2015
posted by iamkimiam at 6:36 PM on June 16, 2015
Which AA degrees do you think will actually get people a job?
I would start with accounting, the Swiss Army Knife of business skills, the lingua franca of all trade and commerce. Whatever you are applying for in the private sector, an accounting degree will move you up the line at least a few notches...
posted by jim in austin at 7:11 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would start with accounting, the Swiss Army Knife of business skills, the lingua franca of all trade and commerce. Whatever you are applying for in the private sector, an accounting degree will move you up the line at least a few notches...
posted by jim in austin at 7:11 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
unless it's REALLY NICE STUFF, there is almost no resale value for most of the possessions of most people
I realized recently that almost none of my furniture will be worth moving in this next move. Other than pieces with sentimental value, most of it is right on the edge between being worth the hassle of selling in a garage sale or just leaving on the sidewalk, and none of it is trashed or awful. It's just that you can buy new furniture cheap enough, as well as endless amounts of used furniture on places like Craigslist, to make furniture like mine and in the photos to not represent any value.
The photos are great, though quite a few of the stories are heartbreaking.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I realized recently that almost none of my furniture will be worth moving in this next move. Other than pieces with sentimental value, most of it is right on the edge between being worth the hassle of selling in a garage sale or just leaving on the sidewalk, and none of it is trashed or awful. It's just that you can buy new furniture cheap enough, as well as endless amounts of used furniture on places like Craigslist, to make furniture like mine and in the photos to not represent any value.
The photos are great, though quite a few of the stories are heartbreaking.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:24 PM on June 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
"When it comes to education debt, lenders don’t take responsibility for the loans that they lend in an unstable economy. It’s crazy to take out an art school loan for $150,000 when the probability of becoming a successful artist in this lifetime is pretty slim."
But if we blame the lenders for allowing people to indebt themselves for degrees that are unlikely to make money, then we're basically saying we want the lenders to decide who is talented enough to make something of the degree and who isn't, or we want them to institute a quota system. Or we want to restrict student lending to professions that are likely to make money. Which, actually, I'd be fine with, but it basically means only the wealthy class will ever be able to attend art school (which in reality, is probably the only time it makes economic sense to go to art school).
The other option is if the government just bankrolls everyone's education, but of course, this doesn't solve the fundamental problem of money appearing from nowhere. In the student loan system, you take out a loan to go to art school, and you make your best attempt to pay the debt, and if you don't, ultimately other taxpayers foot the bill. In the government paying system, the debt is directly born by taxpayers and the individual risk is removed.
Finally, there is the problem of the schools charging too much money. Nobody should be paying six figure sums to become a massage therapist. Should people be paying fortunes to get liberal arts degrees from small private colleges? I don't know, probably not, but even if they aren't predatory in nature, the outcome is the same: you're saddled with a bunch of student loan debt with no way to pay it off. So how do you solve it? Outlaw high tuition fees?
"I’ve learned the most from subjects that people don’t understand how debt works in our economy."
Actually, I don't think anyone fully understands it, not even people at the Fed or academics (well, especially not academics). When you think about it, the concept of debt is mindblowing. It's basically an economic time machine; you time travel into the future, get money from a possible future you, then go back in time and give yourself the cash so you can have things today. If everything goes well, you use that money to fulfill the prophecy and all's well. If not, you end up fulfilling an alternate timeline where you can't have things in the future because the past You took from yourself. Now imagine when we do this in AGGREGATE and we shift the risk around and repackage it and issue more debt to pay off old debt and so on. Nobody truly understands how it all works, sort of like scientists can make super fascinating physics discoveries but still don't understand basic things about how water works.
The other mindblowing thing about debt is...OK, some of these people owe fortunes in debt. It is very likely some of these people will never pay off the debt in their lifetimes! Yet, they still have enough money to live a humble life, have a house, feed themselves, have kids, etc. (and don't for a MOMENT think I'm saying they shouldn't have those things. I'm not done yet). Having negative net worth does NOT mean you're homeless, starving, and on the streets. In fact, for all practical purposes, your life is exactly the same as someone who has no debt and lives frugally.
Now think about this. What does wealth even MEAN? A beggar in India is "richer" than an MFA graduate in the United States. The beggar has a couple coins and no debt. The MFA graduate has a part-time job as a barista and hundreds of thousands in debt. But clearly, the MFA graduate is materially richer, and will probably never be reduced to begging on the streets like the guy in India. The MFA graduate can live the rest of their lives with that debt, have every paycheck garnished to pay the debt, die indebted, and still have lived a reasonably comfortable life. If your only goal in life is to work, live in a modest apartment, and eat, there's basically no incentive to NOT go into tons of student debt. (I'm not saying people SHOULD do that. I'm just saying it's an absolute mindfuck that people can have these things while being net negative wealth their entire lives, solely because they live in rich countries).
Of course, it's not like that debt just vanishes when people die...society as a whole bears it and eventually we will have to collectively pay it back somehow. We are borrowing from future generations and impoverishing them. But that's the magic of the economic time machine.
posted by pravit at 8:41 PM on June 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
But if we blame the lenders for allowing people to indebt themselves for degrees that are unlikely to make money, then we're basically saying we want the lenders to decide who is talented enough to make something of the degree and who isn't, or we want them to institute a quota system. Or we want to restrict student lending to professions that are likely to make money. Which, actually, I'd be fine with, but it basically means only the wealthy class will ever be able to attend art school (which in reality, is probably the only time it makes economic sense to go to art school).
The other option is if the government just bankrolls everyone's education, but of course, this doesn't solve the fundamental problem of money appearing from nowhere. In the student loan system, you take out a loan to go to art school, and you make your best attempt to pay the debt, and if you don't, ultimately other taxpayers foot the bill. In the government paying system, the debt is directly born by taxpayers and the individual risk is removed.
Finally, there is the problem of the schools charging too much money. Nobody should be paying six figure sums to become a massage therapist. Should people be paying fortunes to get liberal arts degrees from small private colleges? I don't know, probably not, but even if they aren't predatory in nature, the outcome is the same: you're saddled with a bunch of student loan debt with no way to pay it off. So how do you solve it? Outlaw high tuition fees?
"I’ve learned the most from subjects that people don’t understand how debt works in our economy."
Actually, I don't think anyone fully understands it, not even people at the Fed or academics (well, especially not academics). When you think about it, the concept of debt is mindblowing. It's basically an economic time machine; you time travel into the future, get money from a possible future you, then go back in time and give yourself the cash so you can have things today. If everything goes well, you use that money to fulfill the prophecy and all's well. If not, you end up fulfilling an alternate timeline where you can't have things in the future because the past You took from yourself. Now imagine when we do this in AGGREGATE and we shift the risk around and repackage it and issue more debt to pay off old debt and so on. Nobody truly understands how it all works, sort of like scientists can make super fascinating physics discoveries but still don't understand basic things about how water works.
The other mindblowing thing about debt is...OK, some of these people owe fortunes in debt. It is very likely some of these people will never pay off the debt in their lifetimes! Yet, they still have enough money to live a humble life, have a house, feed themselves, have kids, etc. (and don't for a MOMENT think I'm saying they shouldn't have those things. I'm not done yet). Having negative net worth does NOT mean you're homeless, starving, and on the streets. In fact, for all practical purposes, your life is exactly the same as someone who has no debt and lives frugally.
Now think about this. What does wealth even MEAN? A beggar in India is "richer" than an MFA graduate in the United States. The beggar has a couple coins and no debt. The MFA graduate has a part-time job as a barista and hundreds of thousands in debt. But clearly, the MFA graduate is materially richer, and will probably never be reduced to begging on the streets like the guy in India. The MFA graduate can live the rest of their lives with that debt, have every paycheck garnished to pay the debt, die indebted, and still have lived a reasonably comfortable life. If your only goal in life is to work, live in a modest apartment, and eat, there's basically no incentive to NOT go into tons of student debt. (I'm not saying people SHOULD do that. I'm just saying it's an absolute mindfuck that people can have these things while being net negative wealth their entire lives, solely because they live in rich countries).
Of course, it's not like that debt just vanishes when people die...society as a whole bears it and eventually we will have to collectively pay it back somehow. We are borrowing from future generations and impoverishing them. But that's the magic of the economic time machine.
posted by pravit at 8:41 PM on June 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
FWIW - An accounting degree is a 4-year degree; there has been talk of making it a 5-year degree. Anything less would not be accounting.
posted by Ochiee at 8:53 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ochiee at 8:53 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, those are interesting, but I don't see a single darn one that's anything like the dozens of real low-income homes of people with similar debts that I've been in. They all look at middle class to me. Of course, low-income homes, even immaculately clean and neat ones, wouldn't make such pretty pictures.
posted by stormyteal at 9:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by stormyteal at 9:22 PM on June 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
So I'm a judgmental guy and was completely looking at the stuff in their households. I note that Slate led off with the picture of a hair stylist, who clearly has a very good eye and both her personal clothing and apartment look very attractive. I think that frames some of the interpretations to the rest even though the actual value of the things in the tiny corner of her apartment pictured (and her debt) is fairly low. The only extravagant thing you can infer about her is that she is spending money as a hairdresser to put a roof over her head in San Francisco. Still it seems unfair, I've saved a lot of money why does she get to have good taste? But overall most houses look unremarkable for the debt level.
@pravit: I think you're making this more complicated than it is. There is no such thing as "aggregate" debt; every debt is by definition countered by an asset of the same nominal value. Otherwise it's just a gift. So you are not borrowing from your future self; you are borrowing from someone who is consuming less today so you consume more. The Fed & co. understand this and relate concepts, even if politicians and the press elide the fact. (The slip side of this--with savings--is why privatizing social security accounts with "personal" savings isn't a free lunch relative to Social Security's pay-as-you-go, but this comment is long enough already.)
posted by mark k at 9:23 PM on June 16, 2015
@pravit: I think you're making this more complicated than it is. There is no such thing as "aggregate" debt; every debt is by definition countered by an asset of the same nominal value. Otherwise it's just a gift. So you are not borrowing from your future self; you are borrowing from someone who is consuming less today so you consume more. The Fed & co. understand this and relate concepts, even if politicians and the press elide the fact. (The slip side of this--with savings--is why privatizing social security accounts with "personal" savings isn't a free lunch relative to Social Security's pay-as-you-go, but this comment is long enough already.)
posted by mark k at 9:23 PM on June 16, 2015
Yeah, those are interesting, but I don't see a single darn one that's anything like the dozens of real low-income homes of people with similar debts that I've been in. They all look at middle class to me. Of course, low-income homes, even immaculately clean and neat ones, wouldn't make such pretty pictures.
Fair play, but there could also be a shame factor. I'd be interested to see if she approached low-income households, and if so, what the reasons were for not being photographed.
posted by Kitteh at 5:37 AM on June 17, 2015
Fair play, but there could also be a shame factor. I'd be interested to see if she approached low-income households, and if so, what the reasons were for not being photographed.
posted by Kitteh at 5:37 AM on June 17, 2015
FWIW - An accounting degree is a 4-year degree; there has been talk of making it a 5-year degree. Anything less would not be accounting.
True, if you did go to work in accounting with a 2 year degree it would undoubtedly be as a bookkeeper or some sort of technician. But that wasn't really the question I was answering. The question was what 2 year degree would give you marketable skills that would improve your chances of getting a job, ANY job. Here's the sort of thing my local community college offers. Their Accounting Technician AAS is packed with nothing but accounting, computer, economics and business courses. There is even an internship. One 3 hour humanities/fine arts elective out of 61 total. In-district, resident tuition and fees currently runs $85 per hour. Seems like a bargain...
posted by jim in austin at 5:44 AM on June 17, 2015
True, if you did go to work in accounting with a 2 year degree it would undoubtedly be as a bookkeeper or some sort of technician. But that wasn't really the question I was answering. The question was what 2 year degree would give you marketable skills that would improve your chances of getting a job, ANY job. Here's the sort of thing my local community college offers. Their Accounting Technician AAS is packed with nothing but accounting, computer, economics and business courses. There is even an internship. One 3 hour humanities/fine arts elective out of 61 total. In-district, resident tuition and fees currently runs $85 per hour. Seems like a bargain...
posted by jim in austin at 5:44 AM on June 17, 2015
But what happens when the market is glutted with job-seekers holding these degrees in accounting, or anything resulting from computer, economics, and business courses?
That would be a first if they could squeeze out the liberal and fine arts majors.
The Accounting Technician (and similar) programs are no panacea because there can be only so many accountants.
Again, I wasn't talking about being an accountant. I was giving an example of a degree with a great number of transferable skills across a broad spectrum of possible employment.
Education needs to be feasible for students studying all kinds of subjects, not just the ones deemed "lucrative" by people who look down on the arts and humanities.
I myself am the proud owner of an Art History degree that has provided me an almost inexhaustible supply of small cocktail chatter over the decades. But fortunately, I'm also an autodidact...
posted by jim in austin at 10:27 AM on June 17, 2015
That would be a first if they could squeeze out the liberal and fine arts majors.
The Accounting Technician (and similar) programs are no panacea because there can be only so many accountants.
Again, I wasn't talking about being an accountant. I was giving an example of a degree with a great number of transferable skills across a broad spectrum of possible employment.
Education needs to be feasible for students studying all kinds of subjects, not just the ones deemed "lucrative" by people who look down on the arts and humanities.
I myself am the proud owner of an Art History degree that has provided me an almost inexhaustible supply of small cocktail chatter over the decades. But fortunately, I'm also an autodidact...
posted by jim in austin at 10:27 AM on June 17, 2015
You can get a nursing degree from community college and make decent money. It took me way more than 2 years and I'm still carrying massive loan debt but I make enough money to own a house and a houseful of pugs.
posted by yodelingisfun at 1:04 PM on June 17, 2015
posted by yodelingisfun at 1:04 PM on June 17, 2015
I just finished reading a novel about aristocrats, and I'm going to propose that there may, in fact, be a relationship between high levels of indebtedness and good taste in art and furnishings.
I have no debt and little-to-no good taste, which provides the other half of my evidence for the proposition.
posted by clawsoon at 7:34 PM on June 17, 2015
I have no debt and little-to-no good taste, which provides the other half of my evidence for the proposition.
posted by clawsoon at 7:34 PM on June 17, 2015
Having negative net worth does NOT mean you're homeless, starving, and on the streets. In fact, for all practical purposes, your life is exactly the same as someone who has no debt and lives frugally.
Someone who has no debt and lives frugally doesn't get their car repossessed, or creditors trying to make their life hell. Nor do they reach their credit limit, get denied future credit, and THEN become homeless and on the streets.
posted by serena15221 at 8:52 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Someone who has no debt and lives frugally doesn't get their car repossessed, or creditors trying to make their life hell. Nor do they reach their credit limit, get denied future credit, and THEN become homeless and on the streets.
posted by serena15221 at 8:52 PM on June 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Someone who has no debt and lives frugally doesn't get their car repossessed, or creditors trying to make their life hell. Nor do they reach their credit limit, get denied future credit, and THEN become homeless and on the streets.
This is a tricky one though, because what you describe only happens when you can no longer manage your debt. If your negative net worth is balanced out by a regular cash flow that allows you to meet your minimums consistently, then yes, your life will be exactly the same as someone with no debt at all.
Actually, FWIW, I had a higher credit score when I was making regular monthly payments on a significant revolving credit card balance, and paying off a mid-size student loan, than I do now with no debt whatsoever. It's not such a terrible score now--I can mostly get credit if I need it, and I don't get turned down for leases or anything-- but it's no longer like banks are just handing me credit lines, and if I wanted a mortgage I'm sure it would affect me negatively.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:38 AM on June 18, 2015
This is a tricky one though, because what you describe only happens when you can no longer manage your debt. If your negative net worth is balanced out by a regular cash flow that allows you to meet your minimums consistently, then yes, your life will be exactly the same as someone with no debt at all.
Actually, FWIW, I had a higher credit score when I was making regular monthly payments on a significant revolving credit card balance, and paying off a mid-size student loan, than I do now with no debt whatsoever. It's not such a terrible score now--I can mostly get credit if I need it, and I don't get turned down for leases or anything-- but it's no longer like banks are just handing me credit lines, and if I wanted a mortgage I'm sure it would affect me negatively.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:38 AM on June 18, 2015
Someone who has no debt and lives frugally doesn't get their car repossessed, or creditors trying to make their life hell. Nor do they reach their credit limit, get denied future credit, and THEN become homeless and on the streets.
I have a medical condition that costs an average of about $100k/per year under conventional treatment. My son has the same condition. I was a military wife, so my medical care was mostly "free" (after my husband swore to give his life to his country, of course). I ran up a bunch of debts getting us healthier. I chose to walk away from a Fortune 500 company to get myself healthier. I have been paying down debt while on the street.
The current "health care" (aka medical) system provides a lot of miracle cures that didn't exist decades ago. The current miracle cure for my condition works for about 5% of people who have it. It also costs like a quarter of a million dollars annually for this miracle cure.
Explain to me how someone is supposed to be "frugal" in the face of that.
I ran up about $50k in debts getting us well over the past 14.5 years. In that time, we should have ran up about $2.9 million in medical care, much of it at American tax payer expense. The debts I ran up are a drop in the bucket. I think I have been phenomenally frugal. In fact, I have basically pulled a miracle out my ass while being called a teller of tall tales. I am pretty grumpy about the social judgey-ness I have to put up with on a routine basis because people think I am making that up and being dramatic. I wish.
I get that my situation is probably some weird statistical outlier in some regards. But I also know for a fact that most people on the street have some kind of serious medical condition that is both interfering with their ability to work and simultaneously running up big medical bills. Lectures to "be frugal" amount to telling them "Hey, politely die, mmmkay? We don't want to pay your bills and we think you are morally bankrupt for failing to make the gobs of money that would pay for the modern medical miracles you are in need of."
Just hope that you never face some serious medical crisis where you have to make a bunch of life and debt decisions.
posted by Michele in California at 10:59 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have a medical condition that costs an average of about $100k/per year under conventional treatment. My son has the same condition. I was a military wife, so my medical care was mostly "free" (after my husband swore to give his life to his country, of course). I ran up a bunch of debts getting us healthier. I chose to walk away from a Fortune 500 company to get myself healthier. I have been paying down debt while on the street.
The current "health care" (aka medical) system provides a lot of miracle cures that didn't exist decades ago. The current miracle cure for my condition works for about 5% of people who have it. It also costs like a quarter of a million dollars annually for this miracle cure.
Explain to me how someone is supposed to be "frugal" in the face of that.
I ran up about $50k in debts getting us well over the past 14.5 years. In that time, we should have ran up about $2.9 million in medical care, much of it at American tax payer expense. The debts I ran up are a drop in the bucket. I think I have been phenomenally frugal. In fact, I have basically pulled a miracle out my ass while being called a teller of tall tales. I am pretty grumpy about the social judgey-ness I have to put up with on a routine basis because people think I am making that up and being dramatic. I wish.
I get that my situation is probably some weird statistical outlier in some regards. But I also know for a fact that most people on the street have some kind of serious medical condition that is both interfering with their ability to work and simultaneously running up big medical bills. Lectures to "be frugal" amount to telling them "Hey, politely die, mmmkay? We don't want to pay your bills and we think you are morally bankrupt for failing to make the gobs of money that would pay for the modern medical miracles you are in need of."
Just hope that you never face some serious medical crisis where you have to make a bunch of life and debt decisions.
posted by Michele in California at 10:59 AM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Having negative net worth does NOT mean you're homeless, starving, and on the streets. In fact, for all practical purposes, your life is exactly the same as someone who has no debt and lives frugally.
Negative net worth on this scale means that you're infinitely close, one flat tire away, one ER visit from, one "oops, went over" phone bill close to missing rent, no down payment to rent again, homeless, no cash no more room on the card no food starving and homeless.
I have only mortgage debt and try to life frugally, but I'm well aware that I have a lot that cushions me from homeless and starving, and the choices I have and life I live is nowhere near exactly the same as someone on that edge.
Maybe you can't photograph debt. The thing that caught my eye was that in one article, the windows on an apartment reminded me of the studio I lived in during grad school. What I knew you don't see is that the studio is all there is, and the fridge was empty. That it's on the first floor in a not-great neighborhood. That I didn't have a dining room and a ballroom and servants' quarters in the next wing.
posted by Dashy at 11:23 AM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Negative net worth on this scale means that you're infinitely close, one flat tire away, one ER visit from, one "oops, went over" phone bill close to missing rent, no down payment to rent again, homeless, no cash no more room on the card no food starving and homeless.
I have only mortgage debt and try to life frugally, but I'm well aware that I have a lot that cushions me from homeless and starving, and the choices I have and life I live is nowhere near exactly the same as someone on that edge.
Maybe you can't photograph debt. The thing that caught my eye was that in one article, the windows on an apartment reminded me of the studio I lived in during grad school. What I knew you don't see is that the studio is all there is, and the fridge was empty. That it's on the first floor in a not-great neighborhood. That I didn't have a dining room and a ballroom and servants' quarters in the next wing.
posted by Dashy at 11:23 AM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Um, I never *ever* told anybody that they should be frugal in this thread. Or even that they should have no debt.
I was simply remarking that debt can have severe consequences, in case anybody decided to run with the idea mentioned by another commenter, and quoted in my reply, that "having negative net worth does not mean you're homeless, starving, and on the streets. In fact, for all practical purposes, your life is exactly the same as someone who has no debt and lives frugally."
To further clarify, in case my message gets lost again:
It may not necessarily be a good idea to run up a lot of debt because it seems as though it will never hurt you.
posted by serena15221 at 7:53 PM on June 18, 2015
I was simply remarking that debt can have severe consequences, in case anybody decided to run with the idea mentioned by another commenter, and quoted in my reply, that "having negative net worth does not mean you're homeless, starving, and on the streets. In fact, for all practical purposes, your life is exactly the same as someone who has no debt and lives frugally."
To further clarify, in case my message gets lost again:
It may not necessarily be a good idea to run up a lot of debt because it seems as though it will never hurt you.
posted by serena15221 at 7:53 PM on June 18, 2015
It may not necessarily be a good idea to run up a lot of debt because it seems as though it will never hurt you.
I will reiterate that this is not what most people are doing. Most people are making choices like "Take expensive drugs so I can go to work, knowing that means keeping a job is costing me more than the job pays, or just be sick, dying and unemployed."
So your assumption that people are all "wow, I shall party down until they cut my credit off!" is fairly offensive. The vast majority of people who have taken out student loans or run up medical debt felt like they didn't really have other viable options. They felt they needed a college degree to compete at all or they needed the medical care to either outright survive or to be healthy enough to work.
I am someone who walked away from college because I knew two people with college degrees, one who as 2 quarters shy of a Master's and the other working on his second Bachelor's, who were delivering newspapers and selling shoes. I felt like I could deliver newspapers without a college degree and be better off for not having run up the student loans. But I am very much an extreme statistical outlier in terms of my "fuck you, that makes no sense, I shall do it my way" take on life. The vast majority of people are not going to make choices like that at the tender age of 19 or 20 like I did.
Please note that while I feel confident I made the right choices, most of the rest of the world thinks I am a lunatic and a loser and is perfectly willing to accept that, yea, verily, I am actually homeless but, nope, I did not wind up homeless in order to get well when doctors claim that cannot be done. They accept the stigmatizing part and are judgey and ugly to me on grounds of classicism but they do not accept my story as whole clothe -- that I have avoided $2.9 million dollars in medical expenses while engineering a better medical outcome than conventional treatment offers and that my medical situation is the reason I chose to be homeless, so I could get well.
The amount of flack I get from people who think I am a lunatic or who are judgey and classist because I am currently homeless is a significant and real problem for me -- it is a real burden that makes my life harder in very practical terms -- so I have enormous sympathy for folks who are less "fuck you, I shall do it my way" than I am.
posted by Michele in California at 9:59 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will reiterate that this is not what most people are doing. Most people are making choices like "Take expensive drugs so I can go to work, knowing that means keeping a job is costing me more than the job pays, or just be sick, dying and unemployed."
So your assumption that people are all "wow, I shall party down until they cut my credit off!" is fairly offensive. The vast majority of people who have taken out student loans or run up medical debt felt like they didn't really have other viable options. They felt they needed a college degree to compete at all or they needed the medical care to either outright survive or to be healthy enough to work.
I am someone who walked away from college because I knew two people with college degrees, one who as 2 quarters shy of a Master's and the other working on his second Bachelor's, who were delivering newspapers and selling shoes. I felt like I could deliver newspapers without a college degree and be better off for not having run up the student loans. But I am very much an extreme statistical outlier in terms of my "fuck you, that makes no sense, I shall do it my way" take on life. The vast majority of people are not going to make choices like that at the tender age of 19 or 20 like I did.
Please note that while I feel confident I made the right choices, most of the rest of the world thinks I am a lunatic and a loser and is perfectly willing to accept that, yea, verily, I am actually homeless but, nope, I did not wind up homeless in order to get well when doctors claim that cannot be done. They accept the stigmatizing part and are judgey and ugly to me on grounds of classicism but they do not accept my story as whole clothe -- that I have avoided $2.9 million dollars in medical expenses while engineering a better medical outcome than conventional treatment offers and that my medical situation is the reason I chose to be homeless, so I could get well.
The amount of flack I get from people who think I am a lunatic or who are judgey and classist because I am currently homeless is a significant and real problem for me -- it is a real burden that makes my life harder in very practical terms -- so I have enormous sympathy for folks who are less "fuck you, I shall do it my way" than I am.
posted by Michele in California at 9:59 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will reiterate that this is not what most people are doing.
This may very likely be true; and as I'm sure you know, I am not talking about your particular case (frankly, I am a fan of your posts/comments, and I really admire your strength and your contributions.)
Still, I think it does bear saying, in response to the original comment that I was responding to, that it may not necessarily be a good idea to run up a lot of debt because it seems as though it will never hurt you.
I am sorry if I am unable to make a point without seeming unsympathetic.
posted by serena15221 at 12:11 PM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
This may very likely be true; and as I'm sure you know, I am not talking about your particular case (frankly, I am a fan of your posts/comments, and I really admire your strength and your contributions.)
Still, I think it does bear saying, in response to the original comment that I was responding to, that it may not necessarily be a good idea to run up a lot of debt because it seems as though it will never hurt you.
I am sorry if I am unable to make a point without seeming unsympathetic.
posted by serena15221 at 12:11 PM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am sorry if I am unable to make a point without seeming unsympathetic.
Communication in a big forum is hard. And complicated.
Don't worry about it.
posted by Michele in California at 12:30 PM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Communication in a big forum is hard. And complicated.
Don't worry about it.
posted by Michele in California at 12:30 PM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
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