"Women blame women for things that have nothing to do with them."
October 8, 2015 9:16 AM Subscribe
The Passion of Nicki Minaj: "To put down a woman for something that men do, as if they're children and I'm responsible, has nothing to do with you asking stupid questions, because you know that's not just a stupid question. That's a premeditated thing you just did." [SLNYT]
Delighted to see this on Metafilter, thanks for posting. That was a clown question and Nicki was absolutely correct in calling it out.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:36 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 9:36 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Nicki Minaj is so smart and funny, and she really seems to be good at saying what she really thinks as part of her public persona - I don't quite know how to express that, but she seems to be really good at being tough and direct and saying difficult things while still in celebrity mode. Also, I enjoy how she changes up her look - she seems to get a lot more complaints about that than white pop musicians do, though, like she's supposed to be the same forever.
I've got to say, the pop landscape is just so much smarter than it was when I was young. Musically speaking, I'm more of a "show me to the difficult and boring please" listener, but the sheer interest of a lot of what's going on now has pulled me in to listen to music that is more approachable (even if complex when you look closely) and deals with different emotional themes than I would normally seek out.
posted by Frowner at 9:44 AM on October 8, 2015 [29 favorites]
I've got to say, the pop landscape is just so much smarter than it was when I was young. Musically speaking, I'm more of a "show me to the difficult and boring please" listener, but the sheer interest of a lot of what's going on now has pulled me in to listen to music that is more approachable (even if complex when you look closely) and deals with different emotional themes than I would normally seek out.
posted by Frowner at 9:44 AM on October 8, 2015 [29 favorites]
nicki is fantastic this whole interview through (and the reporter is awful). i especially loved this part :
‘‘The fact that you [miley cyrus] feel upset about me speaking on something that affects black women makes me feel like you have some big balls. You’re in videos with black men, and you’re bringing out black women on your stages, but you don’t want to know how black women feel about something that’s so important? Come on, you can’t want the good without the bad. If you want to enjoy our culture and our lifestyle, bond with us, dance with us, have fun with us, twerk with us, rap with us, then you should also want to know what affects us, what is bothering us, what we feel is unfair to us. You shouldn’t not want to know that.’’posted by nadawi at 9:45 AM on October 8, 2015 [85 favorites]
Seems odd that the writer (who by her tagline has interviewed other pop stars) would have framed the question in such a way without it being, as Minaj stated, premeditated -- although the writer claims that it was just an embarrassing slip-up on her part.
posted by blucevalo at 9:47 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by blucevalo at 9:47 AM on October 8, 2015
Warning: mild nausea-inducing flashing image....
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:47 AM on October 8, 2015
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:47 AM on October 8, 2015
‘‘What do the four men you just named have to do with me thriving off drama?’’ she asked. ‘‘Why would you even say that? That’s so peculiar. Four grown-ass men are having issues between themselves, and you’re asking me do I thrive off drama?’’
Fist pump moment
posted by The Gooch at 9:50 AM on October 8, 2015 [59 favorites]
Fist pump moment
posted by The Gooch at 9:50 AM on October 8, 2015 [59 favorites]
this is really great and please don't let me derail too much from the topic itself but:
"She laughs for the first time in our conversation, dimples popping everywhere, sun radiating through the room. "
oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
posted by nogoodverybad at 9:52 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
"She laughs for the first time in our conversation, dimples popping everywhere, sun radiating through the room. "
oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
posted by nogoodverybad at 9:52 AM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not for the first time I'm surprised at how, when an interviewer asks a question that probably represents a fairly widely held viewpoint in the world; when that question elicits a fascinating and eloquent response; and when the interviewer has the professional savvy and guts and openness to criticism to use the response in her copy, which she certainly didn't have to do, thereby permitting us to discuss the whole thing in the first place…
…this apparently makes her a bad interviewer.
posted by oliverburkeman at 9:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [14 favorites]
…this apparently makes her a bad interviewer.
posted by oliverburkeman at 9:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [14 favorites]
she could have done it without dripping with disdain for her subject the whole way through. feature after feature on minaj i find myself wondering what it'd be like if they ever sent someone to interview her who was even the least bit knowledgeable about her and/or hip hop. it makes perfect sense to me that beyonce mostly just interviews herself these days.
posted by nadawi at 9:57 AM on October 8, 2015 [36 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:57 AM on October 8, 2015 [36 favorites]
This parenthetical aside is really weird:
And the fact that Minaj is in charge of her own objectification (describing her vagina with more words than I thought existed, and then amplifying its power by rhyming those words), ...
Is the author being intentionally funny, or just obtuse? It reads like she's heard a 'rap song' for the first time in her life and is trying to describe it to her equally ignorant audience.
posted by smokysunday at 9:57 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
And the fact that Minaj is in charge of her own objectification (describing her vagina with more words than I thought existed, and then amplifying its power by rhyming those words), ...
Is the author being intentionally funny, or just obtuse? It reads like she's heard a 'rap song' for the first time in her life and is trying to describe it to her equally ignorant audience.
posted by smokysunday at 9:57 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
i mean, she also thinks "bitch better have my money" is evidence of reclamation - she seems to misunderstand a lot.
posted by nadawi at 9:59 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:59 AM on October 8, 2015 [7 favorites]
"What are your thoughts when people speculate that you thrive on the drama of this situation?"
Or even, "You've often spoken about the challenges faced by women pop stars. Do you think gender plays into it when some people speculate that you thrive on the drama of this situation?"
Interviewing is difficult; I've done it and I don't do it often because I'm no good at it. But it seems like one could research Nicki Minaj's previous comments on stuff and come up with some elicitive questions that would allow the reporter to draw out interesting answers about this while still being on her side. I mean, there's no real reason to do a hostile interview with Nicki Minaj - why not assume that she's interesting and her thoughts are worthy of some respect, as you would with, say, a woman painter or photographer?
posted by Frowner at 10:01 AM on October 8, 2015 [18 favorites]
Or even, "You've often spoken about the challenges faced by women pop stars. Do you think gender plays into it when some people speculate that you thrive on the drama of this situation?"
Interviewing is difficult; I've done it and I don't do it often because I'm no good at it. But it seems like one could research Nicki Minaj's previous comments on stuff and come up with some elicitive questions that would allow the reporter to draw out interesting answers about this while still being on her side. I mean, there's no real reason to do a hostile interview with Nicki Minaj - why not assume that she's interesting and her thoughts are worthy of some respect, as you would with, say, a woman painter or photographer?
posted by Frowner at 10:01 AM on October 8, 2015 [18 favorites]
I mean, some pop music just isn't very smart, and some pop musicians tend to go all stupid or formulaic in interviews. But the least little google reveals that Nicki Minaj not only has some interesting ideas but is perfectly willing to share them online. Why not interview her like any other serious creative person? (I mean, I know, because she's a Black woman pop musician who talks about sex, ergo she must be treated like she's kind of stupid and bad and like she relates to the world like a fourteen year old who is having a bad day.)
posted by Frowner at 10:06 AM on October 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:06 AM on October 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
Minaj is unquestionably a bona fide rap mogul. She's a legend, a boss, a monster, a multi-millionaire, a one-woman business enterprise. There are dozens of incisive, interesting things any professional interviewer could ask her about, spanning her entire career, but to forgo those topics in order to ask her about beef between a handful of men she knows? Instant amateur hour.
What I wouldn't give for women to be allowed to thrive, fail, succeed, or even just EXIST without being inextricably bound to their rejection or embrace of the concept of "drama."
posted by divined by radio at 10:08 AM on October 8, 2015 [62 favorites]
What I wouldn't give for women to be allowed to thrive, fail, succeed, or even just EXIST without being inextricably bound to their rejection or embrace of the concept of "drama."
posted by divined by radio at 10:08 AM on October 8, 2015 [62 favorites]
Minaj absolutely rocked this interview. Grigoriadis is not just a random journalist -- she's perhaps the pre-eminent profiler of female pop stars and other celebrity culture, and has been for years (her piece on Britney at the height of the shaved-head period is famous). She should have known better. And I found the way she closed the piece, with the subtle suggestion that Minaj's response was a marketing put-on, pretty gross also.
posted by sallybrown at 10:09 AM on October 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 10:09 AM on October 8, 2015 [15 favorites]
"Do you think gender plays into it when some people speculate that you thrive on the drama of this situation?"
Both approaches have a role. In this case I think it highly unlikely that this kind of "let's discuss the issues" phrasing would have led to a response as passionate and revelatory as the one that the more pointed question elicited.
Plus, I question the assumption that whenever an interviewer puts a question to an interviewee that embodies some kind of societal prejudice, that means that the interviewer is therefore just an uncritical holder of that prejudice. If she were, it would seem unlikely that she'd then choose to include a fairly lengthy and well-put rejection of that prejudice as one of the centerpieces of her article.
posted by oliverburkeman at 10:18 AM on October 8, 2015
Both approaches have a role. In this case I think it highly unlikely that this kind of "let's discuss the issues" phrasing would have led to a response as passionate and revelatory as the one that the more pointed question elicited.
Plus, I question the assumption that whenever an interviewer puts a question to an interviewee that embodies some kind of societal prejudice, that means that the interviewer is therefore just an uncritical holder of that prejudice. If she were, it would seem unlikely that she'd then choose to include a fairly lengthy and well-put rejection of that prejudice as one of the centerpieces of her article.
posted by oliverburkeman at 10:18 AM on October 8, 2015
Everything in this profile that isn't a direct quote from Nicki is hot garbage. But it's not surprising considering this is the same person who wrote a garbage profile of Kim Kardashian for Rolling Stone a few months ago.
posted by sparkletone at 10:25 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by sparkletone at 10:25 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think it's entirely possible to get passionate responses to questions about racism/sexism/etc. without phrasing your question as something indistinguishable from a microaggression. The slightest bit of research on Nicki Minaj would indicate she's not a person you have to prod into speaking eloquently about this shit.
posted by almostmanda at 10:31 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 10:31 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
Both approaches have a role. In this case I think it highly unlikely that this kind of "let's discuss the issues" phrasing would have led to a response as passionate and revelatory as the one that the more pointed question elicited.
Thank God! At least we found a way we can congratulate someone other than the insightful, eloquent black woman who has been talking about these things for years. We can even thank the sexism!
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:37 AM on October 8, 2015 [24 favorites]
Thank God! At least we found a way we can congratulate someone other than the insightful, eloquent black woman who has been talking about these things for years. We can even thank the sexism!
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:37 AM on October 8, 2015 [24 favorites]
Minaj is unquestionably a bona fide rap mogul. She's a legend, a boss, a monster
I'm sorry, I think you meant to say a motherfucking MONSTER
posted by shakespeherian at 10:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [30 favorites]
I'm sorry, I think you meant to say a motherfucking MONSTER
posted by shakespeherian at 10:49 AM on October 8, 2015 [30 favorites]
I love how stupid Grigoriadis claims that the Meek/Drake beef was about "authenticity", but somehow Nicki's demand for respect for the work that black women have put into this culture, from which white women profit, was...not?
Vanessa Grigoriadis is the worst. Nicki Minaj is the best.
posted by padraigin at 10:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Vanessa Grigoriadis is the worst. Nicki Minaj is the best.
posted by padraigin at 10:54 AM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh, and as an additional aside, why on earth did the NYT let a miscapitalization of bell hooks' name get through? Were they TRYING TO EXPLODE MY BRAIN?
posted by padraigin at 10:57 AM on October 8, 2015 [26 favorites]
posted by padraigin at 10:57 AM on October 8, 2015 [26 favorites]
yeah my money's so tall that my barbie's gotta climb it
posted by shakespeherian at 11:05 AM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 11:05 AM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
"In another era, Minaj’s sexuality, expressed semi-parodically — pretending she’s a Barbie doll; glorifying women dressed as prostitutes and set in red-light-district windows — might have given feminists pause. But in the 2010s, we have entered a different world in pop culture, one in which sexual repression is perceived as burdensome and perhaps even an inability to holistically integrate the body and self."
I keep re-reading this, getting to "burdensome," and losing my ability to think.
I didn't learn much a Nicki Minaj, but I think I learned something about Vanessa Grigoriadis.
posted by nequalsone at 11:06 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
I keep re-reading this, getting to "burdensome," and losing my ability to think.
I didn't learn much a Nicki Minaj, but I think I learned something about Vanessa Grigoriadis.
posted by nequalsone at 11:06 AM on October 8, 2015 [11 favorites]
I have read Metafilter comments with more insight into Nicki than this article has.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:12 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 11:12 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
the part of that quote i can't get past is glorifying women dressed as prostitutes and set in red-light-district windows - as if the sex workers are just playing dress up, not actually performing sex work? it's a bizarre passage from beginning to end.
posted by nadawi at 11:14 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:14 AM on October 8, 2015 [4 favorites]
dressed as prostitutes is a weird, assumption filled, phrase all by itself.
posted by French Fry at 11:24 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by French Fry at 11:24 AM on October 8, 2015 [6 favorites]
Then I asked about the dramatic goings-on at her label: Wayne is suing Birdman for $51 million for withholding fees, and Wayne’s tour bus was riddled with bullets in Georgia earlier this year. A federal indictment claims that individuals connected to another Cash Money rapper, Young Thug, may be responsible.
This was not the game Minaj was here to play — interviews in the social-media era are about being adored, not interrogated.
Oh PLEASE. Like celebrity interviews before the social-media era were about interrogation instead of adoration? Pretty sure all celebrity journalism throughout all of human history has been pretty lacking in interrogation, because the entire industry thrives on quid pro quo and shameless flattery.
I thought Minaj was incredibly patient with a lot of the garbage questions leading up to The Garbage Question. How did you afford a car you owned several years ago (asked multiple times for no reason)? Can you please tell me the specifics of the business and personal relationships of all of your friends? Can you comment on page 79 of this indictment? WHAT ARE YOU HIDING????
I wonder if part of the reason Minaj is so sick to death of being asked about Gaga (other than having been asked, nonstop, for eternity) is because Gaga is allowed to be wrapped up in costume/persona/artiste mystique and journalists go along with it, but Minaj is constantly being asked to drop the act and TELL THE TRUTH. WHERE ARE YOUR TAX FORMS. WHO ARE YOU REALLY.
Gross.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:39 AM on October 8, 2015 [29 favorites]
This was not the game Minaj was here to play — interviews in the social-media era are about being adored, not interrogated.
Oh PLEASE. Like celebrity interviews before the social-media era were about interrogation instead of adoration? Pretty sure all celebrity journalism throughout all of human history has been pretty lacking in interrogation, because the entire industry thrives on quid pro quo and shameless flattery.
I thought Minaj was incredibly patient with a lot of the garbage questions leading up to The Garbage Question. How did you afford a car you owned several years ago (asked multiple times for no reason)? Can you please tell me the specifics of the business and personal relationships of all of your friends? Can you comment on page 79 of this indictment? WHAT ARE YOU HIDING????
I wonder if part of the reason Minaj is so sick to death of being asked about Gaga (other than having been asked, nonstop, for eternity) is because Gaga is allowed to be wrapped up in costume/persona/artiste mystique and journalists go along with it, but Minaj is constantly being asked to drop the act and TELL THE TRUTH. WHERE ARE YOUR TAX FORMS. WHO ARE YOU REALLY.
Gross.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:39 AM on October 8, 2015 [29 favorites]
I really liked the part of the interview when Grigoriadis asked Nikki Minaj what her role is, vis-a-vis youth culture and the protest movement!
posted by Bob Regular at 11:58 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bob Regular at 11:58 AM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder if part of the reason Minaj is so sick to death of being asked about Gaga (other than having been asked, nonstop, for eternity) is because Gaga is allowed to be wrapped up in costume/persona/artiste mystique and journalists go along with it, but Minaj is constantly being asked to drop the act and TELL THE TRUTH. WHERE ARE YOUR TAX FORMS. WHO ARE YOU REALLY.
Yeah, really. Especially given the fact that it's clear by now that Lady Gaga was a massively overhyped flash in the pan with far less musical talent and less to say than-- and most importantly, little to do with-- Nicki Minaj, yet the latter is still presumed to be some sort of acolyte.
posted by threeants at 12:07 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, really. Especially given the fact that it's clear by now that Lady Gaga was a massively overhyped flash in the pan with far less musical talent and less to say than-- and most importantly, little to do with-- Nicki Minaj, yet the latter is still presumed to be some sort of acolyte.
posted by threeants at 12:07 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
"In its stead, I believe, many critics have become cheerleaders for pop stars."
-Metafilter, two days ago.
posted by belarius at 12:14 PM on October 8, 2015
-Metafilter, two days ago.
posted by belarius at 12:14 PM on October 8, 2015
Quoting bell hooks in order to create another narrative of conflict, and another way to contrast "good (black, woman, feminist, etc) with "bad (black, woman, feminist)" - as the author and a number of the NYT commenters do - seems to be missing the fucking point entirely.
posted by kanewai at 12:21 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by kanewai at 12:21 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
TELL THE TRUTH. WHERE ARE YOUR TAX FORMS. WHO ARE YOU REALLY.
I heard that Nikki Minaj was actually born in Kenya.
posted by Panjandrum at 12:27 PM on October 8, 2015
I heard that Nikki Minaj was actually born in Kenya.
posted by Panjandrum at 12:27 PM on October 8, 2015
I've read this article a bunch of times, and gotten in arguments on Facebook over it and how maybe Nicki Minaj should just be more zen like Miley. I continue to be angry about the writer throwing in that last line about "I didn’t know how much of it Minaj really felt, and how much it was a convenient way of maintaining control." We don't ask this question of men. Any cursory understanding of Nicki Minaj is that she is a brand she has created for herself. She is an intersectional feminist who challenges people and assumptions constantly. This was lazy reporting to have so clearly gone in either intentionally baiting Minaj or to have not bothered to understand what she's all about.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 1:19 PM on October 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Nimmie Amee at 1:19 PM on October 8, 2015 [10 favorites]
Let's take a moment to enjoy Ms. Minaj absolutely crushing her section of Kanye West's "Monster" (without the video but still NSFW).
I think Minaj is one of the most exciting and - dare I say - inspiring pop stars of this century. I have an associate who leans heavily MRA (though he'd argue that point) who absolutely despises her because "she is 100% fake and everything she stands for is repulsive." He can't quite express what she stands for that he hates without tying himself up into linguistic loops trying to avoid referencing her gender or ethnicity.
While that is not, in and of itself, proof that Minaj is kind of a nuclear grade pop culture bomb, I think her presence in the world makes it a better place.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:31 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think Minaj is one of the most exciting and - dare I say - inspiring pop stars of this century. I have an associate who leans heavily MRA (though he'd argue that point) who absolutely despises her because "she is 100% fake and everything she stands for is repulsive." He can't quite express what she stands for that he hates without tying himself up into linguistic loops trying to avoid referencing her gender or ethnicity.
While that is not, in and of itself, proof that Minaj is kind of a nuclear grade pop culture bomb, I think her presence in the world makes it a better place.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:31 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Not for the first time I'm surprised at how, when an interviewer asks a question that probably represents a fairly widely held viewpoint in the world; when that question elicits a fascinating and eloquent response; and when the interviewer has the professional savvy and guts and openness to criticism to use the response in her copy, which she certainly didn't have to do, thereby permitting us to discuss the whole thing in the first place…
…this apparently makes her a bad interviewer.
oliverburkeman, it did elicit a fascinating and eloquent response, and agreed that it's an interesting choice for the interviewer to use the response. I also think that the question's phrasing ("‘Is there a part of you that thrives on drama, or is it no, just pain and unpleasantness—’") revealed some uncomfortable assumptions about women enjoying interpersonal drama, women as extensions of conflict between men, and about Minaj's as a byproduct of men having issues between themselves, and that slip ("As soon as I said the words, I wished I could dissolve them on my tongue") made me wonder whether Vanessa Grigoriadis was bringing those filters to the rest of the conversation. That's not the same thing as being a bad interviewer. And including the exchange is not the same thing as Grigoriadis being aware of and transparent about her own assumptions.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:36 PM on October 8, 2015
…this apparently makes her a bad interviewer.
oliverburkeman, it did elicit a fascinating and eloquent response, and agreed that it's an interesting choice for the interviewer to use the response. I also think that the question's phrasing ("‘Is there a part of you that thrives on drama, or is it no, just pain and unpleasantness—’") revealed some uncomfortable assumptions about women enjoying interpersonal drama, women as extensions of conflict between men, and about Minaj's as a byproduct of men having issues between themselves, and that slip ("As soon as I said the words, I wished I could dissolve them on my tongue") made me wonder whether Vanessa Grigoriadis was bringing those filters to the rest of the conversation. That's not the same thing as being a bad interviewer. And including the exchange is not the same thing as Grigoriadis being aware of and transparent about her own assumptions.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:36 PM on October 8, 2015
" Especially given the fact that it's clear by now that Lady Gaga was a massively overhyped flash in the pan with far less musical talent and less to say than-- and most importantly, little to do with-- Nicki Minaj, yet the latter is still presumed to be some sort of acolyte."
Whoah, where'd that come from? and how is Lady Gaga not massively talented? Gaga being talented doesn't mean that Minaj isn't talented. They're both talented, hard-working women. It's not an either-or situation.
posted by I-baLL at 1:37 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
Whoah, where'd that come from? and how is Lady Gaga not massively talented? Gaga being talented doesn't mean that Minaj isn't talented. They're both talented, hard-working women. It's not an either-or situation.
posted by I-baLL at 1:37 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
Delighted to see this on Metafilter, thanks for posting. That was a clown question and Nicki was absolutely correct in calling it out.
I'm struck by Grigoriadis' response to it as well - acknowledging it was a poor question, a shallow question, and publishing that as the core of her interaction with Minaj. And really, there is a shallowness to the whole thing when ...Minaj is remaking being a prominent, powerful, aggressive figure in public. It's both a defense and an offense, but her comment about her own relationship with her body made me rethink my... inclinations towards judgyness. I'm middle of the road feminist on the body politics, but rethinking it there is a way in which Minaj's use of her body as a statement - as a centerpoint - is about recognizing what will happen will she nil she and thus taking what could have been a weakness and turning it into a weapon.
I definitely hold her in high regard. She is challenging, but in that clear manner I really admire.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:48 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm struck by Grigoriadis' response to it as well - acknowledging it was a poor question, a shallow question, and publishing that as the core of her interaction with Minaj. And really, there is a shallowness to the whole thing when ...Minaj is remaking being a prominent, powerful, aggressive figure in public. It's both a defense and an offense, but her comment about her own relationship with her body made me rethink my... inclinations towards judgyness. I'm middle of the road feminist on the body politics, but rethinking it there is a way in which Minaj's use of her body as a statement - as a centerpoint - is about recognizing what will happen will she nil she and thus taking what could have been a weakness and turning it into a weapon.
I definitely hold her in high regard. She is challenging, but in that clear manner I really admire.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:48 PM on October 8, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted; I love Foghat as much as the next person but if you don't want to read about pop stars, just skip the threads about them.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:54 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:54 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
Oh, and as an additional aside, why on earth did the NYT let a miscapitalization of bell hooks' name get through? Were they TRYING TO EXPLODE MY BRAIN?
I believe hooks herself has said that her capitalization worked oppositionally to her desire. She wanted the lower case to make her more unmarked; it ended up making her more marked. I found that a fascinating example of how we can work at cross purposes with ourselves in various ways.
In fact, to an extent this catch-22 is central to how people judge women in general about our relationship to our own sexuality. The prude/slut dichotomy overlaps in the middle at this point, especially if the woman in question is Black or Latina. White women can and do take from Black and Latina culture to sexualize themselves and try to set themselves apart from other white women, but in the end the ones these white women are forming relationship with are white men and women, not the people they are stealing from - yet another case where the marginalized people are the ball, not the opponent.
This is a tradition established by Madonna at the very least, who has been gleefully picking up and discarding aspects of other cultures for decades; Cyrus seems to be directly in her line, with Gaga much more on the fashion/advent guard side of things and only minimally into appropriation (the intersectional fail I'm aware of for her has to do with the trans* community), and Swift very much playing and being the ingénue (when she sexualizes herself she goes for High Romance, not Hip Hop). I've been struck by the similarities between the videos for Swift's Blank Space and Beyoncé's Haunted - where both of the central characters had a very European-Nobility, High Fashion aesthetic and manner (cold, removed, etc...) and how the chaos/danger/destruction/pain is played out in both videos in particular - Swift inhabiting it, while Beyoncé observes it.
Increasingly, I've found the music made by a lot of these women is about all of the competing, contradicting demands placed on them and trying to differentiate between themselves and what other people expect from them - which strikes me as a very fundamentally female/woman/girl issue. I've been drawn to a lot of their music in context, instead of individual songs, as the inherent conflicts play out more clearly across rather than within songs. I'm really, really glad for how they comfort and challenge me in turns.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:08 PM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
I believe hooks herself has said that her capitalization worked oppositionally to her desire. She wanted the lower case to make her more unmarked; it ended up making her more marked. I found that a fascinating example of how we can work at cross purposes with ourselves in various ways.
In fact, to an extent this catch-22 is central to how people judge women in general about our relationship to our own sexuality. The prude/slut dichotomy overlaps in the middle at this point, especially if the woman in question is Black or Latina. White women can and do take from Black and Latina culture to sexualize themselves and try to set themselves apart from other white women, but in the end the ones these white women are forming relationship with are white men and women, not the people they are stealing from - yet another case where the marginalized people are the ball, not the opponent.
This is a tradition established by Madonna at the very least, who has been gleefully picking up and discarding aspects of other cultures for decades; Cyrus seems to be directly in her line, with Gaga much more on the fashion/advent guard side of things and only minimally into appropriation (the intersectional fail I'm aware of for her has to do with the trans* community), and Swift very much playing and being the ingénue (when she sexualizes herself she goes for High Romance, not Hip Hop). I've been struck by the similarities between the videos for Swift's Blank Space and Beyoncé's Haunted - where both of the central characters had a very European-Nobility, High Fashion aesthetic and manner (cold, removed, etc...) and how the chaos/danger/destruction/pain is played out in both videos in particular - Swift inhabiting it, while Beyoncé observes it.
Increasingly, I've found the music made by a lot of these women is about all of the competing, contradicting demands placed on them and trying to differentiate between themselves and what other people expect from them - which strikes me as a very fundamentally female/woman/girl issue. I've been drawn to a lot of their music in context, instead of individual songs, as the inherent conflicts play out more clearly across rather than within songs. I'm really, really glad for how they comfort and challenge me in turns.
posted by Deoridhe at 2:08 PM on October 8, 2015 [8 favorites]
(Note about name choice - where artists have two names commonly used I've defaulted to using the last name, but I just realized I used Beyoncé's first name because I think of her as a single name artist - like Madonna or Cher - but that could come of as inappropriate in contrast to using Swift's last name. I didn't mean it that way, and I hope that comes across.)
posted by Deoridhe at 2:11 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Deoridhe at 2:11 PM on October 8, 2015 [5 favorites]
i also consider beyonce to be basically a single name artist (and, for whatever it's worth, so does wikipedia).
posted by nadawi at 2:21 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 2:21 PM on October 8, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would love to kick it at about 4 a.m. at a Waffle House with her sometime and just talk shit over some scattered, smothered and covered hash browns.
Wayne pushing her to constantly write lyrics faster, more creatively, etc. in the studio has really driven her to compete toe-to-toe with artists from several different genres, and she cracked the European market wide open through her dance tracks -- so why aren't interviewers asking about her music production process? Or how she chooses opening acts for her tours? Or how she decides whether she'll guest on a track, or release something herself on the album featuring a guest artist? That's what I want to read about, not endless boring interviews about which white artist she's "feuding" with on Twitter or how ridiculous her outfit is that day. These reporters are just being lazy, and it does a disservice to her as a musician and writer in order to focus on the fact that she's a woman, who she's dating and what she's wearing. It demeans her by singling out her contributions to pop culture merely for their shock value, but not her skyrocketing success within multiple music genres, countries and sales platforms worldwide. I think I found a whole sentence referring to Minaj as a "brand" -- and she has made plenty of cash in arenas that most artists can only dream of (perfume, liquor, clothing design deals, mobile games, etc.).
Hit me up if you read this, Onika -- I'm definitely a fan of anyone who's all about making money, not excuses. And I know a little something about being little while packing an extra-big punch of personality, too.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 3:18 PM on October 8, 2015 [16 favorites]
Wayne pushing her to constantly write lyrics faster, more creatively, etc. in the studio has really driven her to compete toe-to-toe with artists from several different genres, and she cracked the European market wide open through her dance tracks -- so why aren't interviewers asking about her music production process? Or how she chooses opening acts for her tours? Or how she decides whether she'll guest on a track, or release something herself on the album featuring a guest artist? That's what I want to read about, not endless boring interviews about which white artist she's "feuding" with on Twitter or how ridiculous her outfit is that day. These reporters are just being lazy, and it does a disservice to her as a musician and writer in order to focus on the fact that she's a woman, who she's dating and what she's wearing. It demeans her by singling out her contributions to pop culture merely for their shock value, but not her skyrocketing success within multiple music genres, countries and sales platforms worldwide. I think I found a whole sentence referring to Minaj as a "brand" -- and she has made plenty of cash in arenas that most artists can only dream of (perfume, liquor, clothing design deals, mobile games, etc.).
Hit me up if you read this, Onika -- I'm definitely a fan of anyone who's all about making money, not excuses. And I know a little something about being little while packing an extra-big punch of personality, too.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 3:18 PM on October 8, 2015 [16 favorites]
"Minaj’s actions made sense, in some ways: Even though I had no intention of putting her down as a small-minded or silly woman, she was right to call me out. She had the mike and used it to her advantage, hitting the notes that we want stars like her to address right now, particularly those of misogyny and standing up for yourself, even if it involves standing up for yourself against another woman. I didn’t know how much of it Minaj really felt, and how much it was a convenient way of maintaining control. I only knew that, in that moment, she was a boss bitch."
Reading over this piece, I see Vanessa Grigoriadis recognizing Nicki Minaj as "powerful, outspoken and in control" along two axes: behind the scenes; and in promoting her public persona ("national telenovela" is a cheap shot; "an emotional, public storyline centered on the performer's persona" isn't as mellifluous, though). Minaj's interesting twist is to make serious points about feminism, race, autonomy, etc. on the back of that storyline (though the writer is quick to insert bell hooks' criticism, to highlight dimples (dimples!), and to highlight rivalries with Gaga and Taylor Swift. It read to me as though Grigoriadis understands that Minaj is doing interesting feminist commentary, but somehow Doing It Wrong; then comes the weird passive-aggressive "she kicked me out even though I'm a woman" and ugh, the implicit accusation that Minaj is faking her criticism or was exercising control (and not, say, perhaps that Minaj might have had other reasons, including being tired of what she saw as questions that missed the point or had sexist undertones). In that context, "she was a boss bitch" reads in an uncomfortable and uncomplimentary way.
Women beware women, indeed.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Reading over this piece, I see Vanessa Grigoriadis recognizing Nicki Minaj as "powerful, outspoken and in control" along two axes: behind the scenes; and in promoting her public persona ("national telenovela" is a cheap shot; "an emotional, public storyline centered on the performer's persona" isn't as mellifluous, though). Minaj's interesting twist is to make serious points about feminism, race, autonomy, etc. on the back of that storyline (though the writer is quick to insert bell hooks' criticism, to highlight dimples (dimples!), and to highlight rivalries with Gaga and Taylor Swift. It read to me as though Grigoriadis understands that Minaj is doing interesting feminist commentary, but somehow Doing It Wrong; then comes the weird passive-aggressive "she kicked me out even though I'm a woman" and ugh, the implicit accusation that Minaj is faking her criticism or was exercising control (and not, say, perhaps that Minaj might have had other reasons, including being tired of what she saw as questions that missed the point or had sexist undertones). In that context, "she was a boss bitch" reads in an uncomfortable and uncomplimentary way.
Women beware women, indeed.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:20 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
What frustrates me the most about these articles is that I would genuinely like to know who Nicki Minaj is. And I mean, who she is underneath the mask. I honestly have no idea; all I know is the public persona, and most of what I read are others trying to read content into her persona, or focusing on the stupid.
I'm waiting for someone to go deep.
posted by kanewai at 4:23 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm waiting for someone to go deep.
posted by kanewai at 4:23 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nicki Minaj, off the celebrity clock, is not there for my consumption; I don't feel like I can demand that she share her private self, especially while her work (Unicorn on the Cob: "...why aren't interviewers asking about her music production process? Or how she chooses opening acts for her tours? Or how she decides whether she'll guest on a track, or release something herself on the album featuring a guest artist?") is being minimized and her celebrity feuding and relationships are being highlighted. A similar question came up in another thread this morning. Why does the public feel entitled to know the personal side of a famous woman, when, as Rebecca Solnit says, it functions as "a soporific and pointless detour from the magnificent questions her work poses"? More: "We talk about open questions, but there are closed questions, too, questions to which there is only one right answer, at least as far as the interrogator is concerned. These are questions that push you into the herd or nip at you for diverging from it, questions that contain their own answers and whose aim is enforcement and punishment." That's where Grigoriadis' questions went unfixably wrong; who would share after a gotcha like that?
Anyway, kanewai, I appreciate your curiosity, and I think I must disagree with its premise. I, um, did not know I had feelings about Nicki Minaj? Or maybe I don't: maybe it's that I think the star-maker machinery shouldn't enforce sexist (and other -ist) assumptions and defend itself by claiming that inquiring minds want to know.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:41 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Anyway, kanewai, I appreciate your curiosity, and I think I must disagree with its premise. I, um, did not know I had feelings about Nicki Minaj? Or maybe I don't: maybe it's that I think the star-maker machinery shouldn't enforce sexist (and other -ist) assumptions and defend itself by claiming that inquiring minds want to know.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:41 PM on October 8, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yikes, maybe we're not so far apart! I definitely didn't mean to imply that I want, or expect, some soul-bearing tell-all. That stuff creeps me out.
By "deep" I mean, I want a lot more of this:
I never was political or preachy, but I’d stop my show and do two minutes of talking to my girls, boosting them up ... ‘They’d go home feeling, ‘Can’t nobody tell me [expletive]. ... We got so many girls right now having children and don’t even know the first thing to say to a child, but you’re having a child because ‘I want to keep this dude,’ or it just happened ... Why are we never in control? Why are we stuck with a baby? Why are we always stuck on the welfare line? Why are we always stuck having to beg, borrow and steal to provide for our children? Why do we think it’s something wrong for waiting to have a baby, waiting until you’re 35 or 36 to have children? Technology has changed — you can wait! Have something to offer them.
- and a lot less of everything else.
posted by kanewai at 5:44 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
By "deep" I mean, I want a lot more of this:
I never was political or preachy, but I’d stop my show and do two minutes of talking to my girls, boosting them up ... ‘They’d go home feeling, ‘Can’t nobody tell me [expletive]. ... We got so many girls right now having children and don’t even know the first thing to say to a child, but you’re having a child because ‘I want to keep this dude,’ or it just happened ... Why are we never in control? Why are we stuck with a baby? Why are we always stuck on the welfare line? Why are we always stuck having to beg, borrow and steal to provide for our children? Why do we think it’s something wrong for waiting to have a baby, waiting until you’re 35 or 36 to have children? Technology has changed — you can wait! Have something to offer them.
- and a lot less of everything else.
posted by kanewai at 5:44 PM on October 8, 2015 [9 favorites]
G 49. That's G 49 people!
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:46 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:46 PM on October 8, 2015
Wow. I gained a lot of respect for Minaj and I have respect for the reporter for owning up to her part. And I like how you can feel the reporter's respect for Minaj. I've always really loved how individual her music is. Great article, great post
posted by gt2 at 11:45 PM on October 8, 2015
posted by gt2 at 11:45 PM on October 8, 2015
Everything is Wrong with Vanessa Grigoriadis's Interview and Profile of Nicki Minaj
posted by melissasaurus at 12:11 PM on October 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by melissasaurus at 12:11 PM on October 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Can We Stop Mocking Nicki Minaj Already? Vanessa Willoughby at Bitch on Minaj's statue at Madame Tussauds, and her representation in media more generally.
Although Minaj herself said on Instagram that she appreciates the figure, it still doesn’t excuse the degrading aspects of the statue. Why the pose on all fours? Why put the sculpture in such a position that emphasizes not Minaj the artist, but Minaj’s physical attributes and her physical attributes alone? Other statues of public figures, such as Kim Kardashian, are fully-clothed and standing upright, more shopping-mall mannequin than sexual curiosity.posted by Banknote of the year at 11:47 AM on October 10, 2015
I'm glad I read these comments. I'd come away from the interview thinking Grigoriadis knew she fucked up at the end and was apologetic. I hadn't picked up on all the other passive aggressive framing she used throughout the rest of the interview. I'd focused mainly on the awesome shit Minaj was saying and not how it had been framed.
posted by Anonymous at 12:28 PM on October 13, 2015
posted by Anonymous at 12:28 PM on October 13, 2015
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posted by grumpybear69 at 9:18 AM on October 8, 2015 [10 favorites]