Everything must come to an end
November 14, 2015 11:05 PM   Subscribe

Ronda Rousey--arguably the most dominant and recognizable athlete in women's MMA--has been defeated.

In the much anticipated fight Holm KO'd Rousey in the second round with a kick to the head. While Holm was arguably the most challenging opponent Rousey has faced, Rousey was still strongly favored to win. Prior to this, only one other opponent has made it past the first round with Rousey and 8/12 of those matches were finished in less than a minute.

The lead-up was notable for a particularly inspiring hype video that drew from the athletes' own relatives for casting. Previously 1 2 3 4
posted by Anonymous (101 comments total)
 
womp womp
posted by Itaxpica at 11:10 PM on November 14, 2015 [7 favorites]


Wow.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:13 PM on November 14, 2015


"Sport is actually a chance for us to have other human beings push us to excel."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:18 PM on November 14, 2015


Even my jaw is hurting. That's the proper way for a Champion to go down and a new one taking her place.
posted by lmfsilva at 11:19 PM on November 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


The video is not authorised for the UK. If anyone's got another source could you post it here?
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:30 PM on November 14, 2015


Ah ma gad. That hype video tho.
posted by easter queen at 11:31 PM on November 14, 2015


.GIF of the knockout
posted by Rhaomi at 11:31 PM on November 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Very glad my wife talked me into ordering the fight tonight. It was an amazing moment to watch live; felt like I was witnessing something really historic unfolding. And of course now I wish I had put some money down on Holm.
posted by The Gooch at 11:38 PM on November 14, 2015


I felt like Rousey looked distracted and unsure in the days leading up to the fight. Maybe too much Other Stuff going on - the Roadhouse movie, the Captain Marvel rumors, maybe a justifiable concern about the more punch-centric nature of Holm's style... I like Rousey, although she's for sure not perfect, but she just felt way off coming into tonight.

However, that said, she's the only reason I've been watching MMA at all as most punch-sports kind of freak me out, so that's just an ephemeral feeling, not knowledge speaking.
posted by taterpie at 11:47 PM on November 14, 2015


From the deadspin.com article linked above: "The problem is that it would probably be insane to try a head-kick on Ronda Rousey. "
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:54 PM on November 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Basically we were all a bit lazy (well I was) about looking at Holm, who's probably one of the world's great strikers. Holm won because she was the better fighter that day and at Rousey's level generally, and on another planet entirely as a striker.
posted by mobunited at 12:06 AM on November 15, 2015


Looked to me like Rousey started believing her own hype and decided she could be anybody in the world at their own game.
posted by Justinian at 12:19 AM on November 15, 2015


I don't like the "she began to think she was at the top," narrative. She's clearly just a very bad boxer, up against a very good boxer. The interesting fight will be if she can become a mediocre boxer, would she be able to hold someone off long enough to win.

I don't really follow MMA, but I assumed it mostly drew from boxers and Ronda was an exception, is this not the case?
posted by geoff. at 12:43 AM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Back in the day it was a total mess, but generally wrestlers dominated - wrestle someone to the ground, smash them into unconsciousness. The game has evolved such that at the moment most of the fighters are well-rounded, with a focus on wrestling and Muay Thai style striking, and occasionally some dangerous Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Ronda being primarily a judoka is quite rare, but Yoel Romero who's doing very well is another. Ronda's striking is savage but not very technical; Holly exploited this weakness perfectly.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 12:48 AM on November 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


I don't really follow MMA, but I assumed it mostly drew from boxers and Ronda was an exception, is this not the case?

Top level MMA mostly draws from places that teach MMA these days. Early on it drew from lots of places, but people who didn't know how to wrestle and submit opponents got tooled by people who did. Rousey's judo background is notable because judo is jacketed wrestling where you hurl people to the ground hard and sometimes submit them, and Rousy has been able to translate her Olympic class talent into a ring strategy, and is a talented athlete generally. Holly's striking is also world class, however, and MMA-specific training has really improved since the early days.
posted by mobunited at 12:52 AM on November 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm no MMA expert, but from what I've read Rousey's striking game has always been her weak point. She's built it up enough that it has worked for all her other opponents. The women's MMA pool is neither wide nor deep, so you take an Olympic class athlete like Rousey, who would be excellent even in a better pool, and you pit her against opponents who just don't have her lifelong experience and training and she completely dominates. But her striking skills are nowhere near Holm's, whose career has been based entirely around boxing and has won international titles in it.

I've been kind of annoying about the "that'll shut that mouthy bitch up" reaction this has been garnering across the Interwebs. Rousey is confident, and Rousey likes to talk trash, but when Rousey talks about her opponents' skills she doesn't underplay if she thinks they truly are good. Leading up to the fight she's said things like "She'll lose" and "[Holm] couldn't handle being a champion", but she's also been ready to point out that Holm is very skilled and the fight will be a challenge. I think people mistake her showmanship and knowledge of her own abilities for arrogance--and I think often they would not do so if she had a penis. Personally, I welcome women who aren't afraid to tell the world that they're fucking awesome. Perhaps one day we'll find cockiness in women as charming as we find it in men.
posted by Anonymous at 1:24 AM on November 15, 2015


Taste my stinky foot!
posted by mannequito at 1:34 AM on November 15, 2015


Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. It's fine to bring up Rousey's personal history with saying shitty things (and we've discussed it a few times on the site, most recently, I think here), but probably best to just make it a clear comment. Thing two is please let's not go down the road again of "what male fighters she/they should fight," and thing three, let's also avoid general "MMA sucks" commentary. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:37 AM on November 15, 2015


On the plus side, at least she didn't get a concussion.
posted by clawsoon at 2:34 AM on November 15, 2015


This is the best highlight from the night.
Rousey just looks completely confused as to why her swing didn't connect.

Also, if you watch this highlight reel, you can see Holm taking Rousey to striking school.

Holm ran that fight from the beginning and deserves the win.
posted by madajb at 2:45 AM on November 15, 2015 [8 favorites]


I don't like the "she began to think she was at the top," narrative.

I don't know if it's the case here, but this does happen to a lot of fighters (and sports figures in general).
Once you start on the publicity train, with photoshoots, movie roles (A Roadhouse reboot?!), talk show interviews, etc, by necessity, you're training less, you're focused less.

There's only so many hours to train before a fight.
posted by madajb at 2:52 AM on November 15, 2015


Who's happier -- Holm or Justino?
posted by Etrigan at 3:16 AM on November 15, 2015


The tweetstream of Greg Howard (Deadspin writer who wrote Ronda Rousey's Latest Challenger Is Entirely Legit And Has No Prayer yesterday):

COME ON HOLLY

this is ronda rousey’s longest fight in the last two years

LET’S GO HOLLYA

i don’t wanna jinx anything but OH MY GOD OH MY GOD LET’S GO

BCNKVXL:DL:BNV,BJXZMND,J:WFNBM,EAFJ;OIGSFBJSF,HAEJSLIUFBZLJHAKKSZFLDIKVJ,BMES,GJKLN<BMAD,.SBGJHLFDJKS GHKALFFEHJBWGEKJFEW

WHAT WHAT WHAT

HOLLY HOLM DID THE WHOLE SHIT SHE DID THE WHOLE SHIT

i’m about to cry
posted by Etrigan at 3:26 AM on November 15, 2015 [7 favorites]


The sign of someone who is very very good is to make someone who is merely very good look ordinary and Holm made Rousey look very ordinary. Holm didn't look in the slightest trouble during the whole match, even during the clinches where anyone else would have been destroyed by Rousey. Rousey really needs to up her boxing skills, to dodge and weave, if she's to stand any chance in in the inevitable rematch.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:27 AM on November 15, 2015


The sign of someone who is very very good is to make someone who is merely very good look ordinary and Holm made Rousey look very ordinary.

But you could have said the same thing about Rousey up to this point -- she's made everyone who isn't a preternatural striker look very ordinary. Is this an indictment of Rousey's overall game or just one of those occasional blips in the usual pattern of very very good strikers losing to merely very good wrestlers in MMA?

This was Holm's shortest match ever, and her first UFC knockout. I don't think she'll be Buster Douglas, but I don't think she's Evander Holyfield yet either.
posted by Etrigan at 3:44 AM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah up until now Rousey has been pretty much ferocious and crushed just about everyone. Holm has a lot of experience, has already been a champion so she wasn't going to be intimidated by Rousey reputation. But you might have thought that Rousey and her camp knew that Holm was a very good boxer and trained / planned accordingly but Rousey seemed to have no defense to it at all. Plus Holms was also no slouch when it came to kicking and grappling (when was the last time that Rousey was thrown?!) But that could have just been down to Rousey running out of steam - not matter who you are you can only take being hard punched in the face so many times without it having an effect.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:29 AM on November 15, 2015


But you might have thought that Rousey and her camp knew that Holm was a very good boxer and trained / planned accordingly but Rousey seemed to have no defense to it at all.

It's hard as hell to really train for getting punched in the face. Pretty much the only way to do it is to get punched in the face, and even if you stipulate that Rousey doesn't really care about being attractive, taking one unlucky punch in the face, even in sparring, can end a career, whereas if you get in a bad submission situation in sparring, the odds are better that you'll be able to say "Stop!" and not get your arm yanked off at the shoulder accidentally.
posted by Etrigan at 5:15 AM on November 15, 2015


Lord knows I love me my brutal barbarian princess Ronda Rousey, but between her trash talking and her willingness to actually maim her opponents, I've always thought of her as kind of like a minor Xena villain at this stage of her career. Not like Callisto or one of the big supernatural bads, but one of the overconfident Amazons who wants to be a dominant warlord like pre-redemption Xena but without the humility and regret to carry that kind of responsibility. Or maybe like pre-redemption Xena herself, actually. What I mean is: girl's been going around bragging about 'taking arms' for years, and that's not cool, and this ass-whooping has been a long time coming. Holm is a powerhouse and it's the first time I've ever seen Ronda staggering like that in a fight. Hopefully Ronda rebounds to become actual Xena. It's good to see her with some serious competition.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:17 AM on November 15, 2015 [15 favorites]


If I had to guess I'd say Rousey's planned defense against her opponent's superior striking was the same as it was in her 12 wins -- getting Holm onto the ground as fast as possible. Except Holm's footwork is goddamned mind-blowing.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:19 AM on November 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Knock knock?
Who's there?
Madden?
Madden Who?
Madden Curse!
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 5:31 AM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


Sweet jesus guys look at Ronda and Holly hugging each other post-match and that expression of respect on Ronda's face. Ugh my girl she's so emotional she probably really needed that hug. This is something out of some samurai movie where one warrior beats the other and gets a boon companion forever. Ronda looks like she's ready to swear fealty. Okay, maybe that's a bit much, I'm lost in fangirl land right now. Ronda honey put some ice on that. I'm really glad she got that hug.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 5:36 AM on November 15, 2015 [29 favorites]


I guess we finally found out her Achilles heel: getting kicked in the head by a professional fighter.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:39 AM on November 15, 2015 [14 favorites]


I loved this fight so much. Watching reaction videos of sports bars going totally bananas is even better.
posted by zymil at 5:49 AM on November 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Not really familiar with Ronda, other than various clips of her knocking someone out. So the way she's clearly out of her element and getting her ass kicked is jarring, she looks like amateur.

That kick though, that was masterful!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:38 AM on November 15, 2015


It's hard as hell to really train for getting punched in the face.

That's why you train to avoid getting punched in the first place by dodging and blocking and slipping so that even if you do get tagged it's just a glancing blow. Of course it's easy to say that when you're not taking on someone with the speed and ringcraft of Holms
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 6:40 AM on November 15, 2015


Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. Er, I have no idea what's going on with the warrior girl / feudal lord metaphor, but it's probably best just to switch to plain language at this point.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:45 AM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's hard as hell to really train for getting punched in the face.

That's why you train to avoid getting punched in the first place by dodging and blocking and slipping so that even if you do get tagged it's just a glancing blow. Of course it's easy to say that when you're not taking on someone with the speed and ringcraft of Holms


I'm sure she trained as much as she could in that vein, but she was going up against a supremely good boxer, and that meant that she was going to get hit harder than she'd ever been hit before. I'm also sure that she knew that if she got into a slugfest, she was toast, so she wanted to end the fight before Holm could bring her power to bear.
posted by Etrigan at 6:55 AM on November 15, 2015


so Holly Holm beat Rhonda Rousey?
was this fight written by DC comics in the silver age?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:17 AM on November 15, 2015 [45 favorites]


It's hard as hell to really train for getting punched in the face.

That's why you train to avoid getting punched in the first place by dodging and blocking and slipping so that even if you do get tagged it's just a glancing blow. Of course it's easy to say that when you're not taking on someone with the speed and ringcraft of Holms


As Mike Tyson said, everyone has a fight plan until they get hit.
posted by azpenguin at 7:34 AM on November 15, 2015 [11 favorites]


I don't know jack squat about MMA so I have to ask, what's with the hitting someone when they're already on the floor? They can do that?
posted by Ber at 7:36 AM on November 15, 2015


I wonder who Ronda was when she woke up this morning. I hope she has the mental resilience to still be Ronda the Fighter, and not Ronda the Loser.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 7:46 AM on November 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ber, I would guess that you don't know how much you've actually hurt an opposing fighter, when they hit the mat. They may have just been wobbled enough to trip on their own feet, but can recover and put on their ground game (which is NOT where you want to tangle with Rousey). As brutal as it seems, you want to get the fight over with, as fast as you can, while you still can. The ref is going to watch *extremely* closely to see if the downed fighter is still putting up a reasonable defence, and, if not, stop the fight immediately.

I wish I had some links to fights where a fighter goes down, but still manages to recover, and even win.
posted by jpolchlopek at 7:47 AM on November 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Everyone (usually) roots for the underdog but that Rousey hit after the bell made it that much easier. I am probably wrong but it felt like it was launched after the bell ...ugh. Maybe I just want to see her as being already frustrated and losing it at that point.
posted by asra at 8:11 AM on November 15, 2015


Rousey is actually pretty artless until she gets her hands on you. More or less a bum's rush followed by pounding and/or submission. Holm beat her more with footwork than anything else. Rousey took more damage in that fight than than her career up to that point simply because she couldn't run Holm to-ground and was forced to eat punch after punch in the attempt. Apparently she had no Plan B...
posted by jim in austin at 8:18 AM on November 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


I actually recommend her book, "My Fight Your Fight".
It's a good read and very personal.
These books always come with a co-writer or ghost writer, but in this case, it's Rowsey's own sister, Maria Burns Ortiz, who is a journalist for ESPN.
I assume this adds an extra layer of comfort and intimacy when it comes to Ronda telling her story.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 8:32 AM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I love women's MMA and this was probably the best outcome for the sport: the first time two women's fights were the main and co-main events, Joanna Jedrzejczyk and Valérie Létourneau had a badass fight and then the Rousey-Holm fight was just ridiculous, and a great upset! If Rhonda Rousey kept running through women fighters, the division was going to stop being interesting very quickly. Just look at the flyweights and Mighty Mouse's total domination of the division. Not that it's not fun to watch tiny men knock out their opponents very quickly, but there's not the anticipation of watching a fight where it's not clear what's going to happen. This keeps women's MMA from taking an irreparable turn into the Rhonda Rousey show. And I can't even imagine the hype for Holm-Rousey II when that eventually happens.

Wondering, though, how Dana and Rogan are going to save face, given that everyone pretty much ignored Holly Holm in the runup to the fight to speak hyperbolically about how Rousey is a completely unprecedented athlete. Even if we're just limiting it to women athletes, I think it's fair to say that Serena Williams, Simone Boles, Kaori Icho, etc. are at least as dominant in their respective sports as Rhonda Rousey has been.
posted by ChuraChura at 8:33 AM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


(I mean Simone Biles, sorry)
posted by ChuraChura at 8:39 AM on November 15, 2015


Sports books 'crushed' by Ronda Rousey loss to Holly Holm. Holm was running 6-1 and still getting five times the bets as Rousey at one Vegas sports book.
posted by Etrigan at 9:03 AM on November 15, 2015


This is going to change the way we think about kicking people in the face
posted by thelonius at 9:12 AM on November 15, 2015 [16 favorites]


You don't have to be a very good striker if you can avoid getting hit long enough to get to the grappling part. That was Rousey's strategy from Day 1. Unfortunately, she was up against a very good striker and her defense wasn't good enough to keep her going until she could establish herself in the ground game. She did show some improved striking skills in her previous bout but that was mostly offensive and didn't challenge her defense much.

She's going to be busy for a while away from the mat, it will be interesting to see if she rounds out her style or not.
posted by tommasz at 9:30 AM on November 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's hard as hell to really train for getting punched in the face.


Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini said working hard in training was easy because if you didn't, somebody punched you in the face.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 10:48 AM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


Was Rousey knocked out when she was kicked in the head or when her head bounced off the mat? I have no expertise in these things.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:35 AM on November 15, 2015


Just got through watching the entire fight, and man, I just think that Ronda didn't come prepared at all, and Holly Holm came VERY prepared. I wonder how much her fame and other commitments played into this and affected her preparation and training. Ronda seemed to get gassed midway through the first round, and it was all downhill from there.

It's like Ronda is Statue of Himself Rocky, and Holly is Remote Cabin in Siberia Rocky.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:00 PM on November 15, 2015 [6 favorites]


Sports books 'crushed' by Ronda Rousey loss to Holly Holm. Holm was running 6-1 and still getting five times the bets as Rousey at one Vegas sports book.

Having a hard time feeling any sympathy, but I am a bit puzzled - I thought sports books were smart enough to change the odds depending on how the money was flowing?
posted by nubs at 12:04 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Was Rousey knocked out when she was kicked in the head or when her head bounced off the mat? I have no expertise in these things.

If you look at any number of GIFs or video slow motion replays, Rousey wasn't kicked in the head, she was kicked in the neck. I assume that sudden impact at a critical blood flow to the brain area is what caused her to lose consciousness, and even then she didn't lose it for long. Just long enough for her to hit the mat, and for Holm to seize the situation and finish the fight.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 12:37 PM on November 15, 2015


Seems like the UFC leadership is freaking out about Rousey getting taken down. I don't know. The obvious rematch would be the biggest sporting event of the decade and on the level of some of Ali's big event fights of the 1970s. Question is whether she wants to regain the title or walk away and enjoy that movie and endorsement career. I sense we're going to see Siberia Rousey now.

"Rousey got fucked. Roused got fucked."

I'd say that was more Tall Poppy Syndrome. In America the Rousey hype was really overheated this year. Eventually champions believe their own hype and stuff like this happens.
posted by dw at 12:42 PM on November 15, 2015


Just got through watching the entire fight, and man, I just think that Ronda didn't come prepared at all, and Holly Holm came VERY prepared. I wonder how much her fame and other commitments played into this and affected her preparation and training. Ronda seemed to get gassed midway through the first round, and it was all downhill from there.

I don't know about her conditioning but her style was tailor-made for one of the better female boxers in the world. She kept her shoulders squared and hands to the side (must be a martial arts thing). She had no head movement and followed Holly around the ring like a pull-toy. Holly didn't have to do anything to make it a fight except keep her on the end of her punches and play keep-away with superior footwork. It was basically target practice and can leave the target feeling somewhat gassed...
posted by jim in austin at 12:43 PM on November 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


The fight was a fight. Congratulations, Holm. You had a great fight. Unfortunately, a good number of your supporters didn't give a shot about you winning...they just wanted to see Rousey get "fucked".

That was what I meant in my previous comment. There was a lot of celebrating that wasn't about Holm, it was about Rousey being "shut up" and how arrogant she was and all that bullshit. She's not arrogant if she's right. Her ground game is amazing. Her striking game is not. Rousey has never claimed otherwise about the latter--but I've read comments from many people (not talking about this thread) that are vicious about the former.
posted by Anonymous at 12:44 PM on November 15, 2015


I've been watching MMA since my best friend's dad, a boxing fan, bought the UFC 1 PPV on a lark (I thought maybe it was UFC 2 but wikipedia says Art Jimmerson fought in 1 and I'll never forget us laughing at the guy wearing one boxing glove). When the sport exploded the knuckle head assholes came out of the woodwork, the same way the fanbase for your favorite local sports team will suddenly mutate when the team is doing well and begins to attract new followers (as lamented locally w/the Seahawks).

These people aren't fans of the sport or the craft, they're fans of the violence. They're the people that would just as soon watch Bum Fights. Personally, I think that the UFC has nurtured and catered to that fanbase and the sport will be better off if/when UFC loses it's stranglehold.

I remember watching a biker bar empty out, half finished drinks everywhere, when Rampage knocked out Liddell (and one of the two black guys in the place got up and did the riverdance in front of the screen) and later watching Silva grab Chael Sonnen's arm while my friend (from UFC 1) and I were the only people in the place cheering the victory. That was the last time I watched a major fight in a public place.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 1:15 PM on November 15, 2015


When I saw the video of the knockout, I was surprised by how artless and off-target Holm's last two punches to Rousey's head were, the ones where Rousey is already on the ground.

Watching it again in slow motion, I realized the she wasn't aiming for Rousey's face. Those two punches land in the exact same spot and come in at the exact same angle as the kick that put Rousey to the ground in the first place. She's working the injury in case Rousey somehow manages to continue the fight.
posted by 256 at 1:29 PM on November 15, 2015 [5 favorites]


I thought sports books were smart enough to change the odds depending on how the money was flowing?

There's always some amount of action on the underdog. The vast majority of the time when someone is at 6-1 (or, plus-800 (8-1) at some places, which makes this the biggest upset in UFC history by a large margin), that's free money for the sports books. The people who were betting on Holm didn't really know anything that the books didn't know, they were just taking a flyer on good odds (as another example of this, Donald Trump claimed that he won $20M on the first Holyfield-Tyson fight because the 20-1 odds on Holyfield were just too lucrative to ignore).

They did move the line somewhat, as Rousey went from minus-2000 (bet $2000 to win $100) to minus-1400 over the course of the week.
posted by Etrigan at 1:43 PM on November 15, 2015


I was into getting kicked in the face before it was cool.
posted by CynicalKnight at 2:27 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Now Rousey will have to train for the rematch with Apollo Creed at his old gym on the mean streets of LA, so she rediscover the eye of the tiger.
posted by Soulfather at 3:09 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is good for women's martial arts -- Rousey looked so invincible in part because the field was relatively shallow. This is evidence it is getting deeper.

This pattern is familiar from the early year's of the men's UFC -- seemingly invincible grappler meets a striker with good takedown defense, gets their butt kicked standing up.
posted by zipadee at 4:01 PM on November 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


Was Rousey knocked out when she was kicked in the head or when her head bounced off the mat? I have no expertise in these things.

I don't think she was actually physically knocked out / unconscious ... just too staggered and out of it to defend herself after the kick took her down so the ref stopped it. That still counts as a knock-out. She took a brutal punch to the face (and another to the back of her head) just before the kick which I think were enough to pretty much knock her out on her feet even before the kick.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:09 PM on November 15, 2015


A punch to the back of the head? I thought that was against the rules in.. like.. everything?
posted by Space Coyote at 4:36 PM on November 15, 2015


The Hamms Bear: "These people aren't fans of the sport or the craft, they're fans of the violence. They're the people that would just as soon watch Bum Fights. Personally, I think that the UFC has nurtured and catered to that fanbase and the sport will be better off if/when UFC loses it's stranglehold."

This is one of the reason that, when I irregularly watch boxing, I like to watch the little guys, like welterweight and bantamweight and such. Those are the guys that bob, and dodge, and weave, and dance around the ring. That, in my opinion, is truly "the sweet science" as opposed to two giant slabs of meat having a slugfest that, by and large, is nothing more than a test of endurance.
posted by Samizdata at 4:40 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't think she was actually physically knocked out / unconscious

She was completely out. Her eyes are closed, she's not defending herself, and her legs are still. If you're on the ground like that and awake, you're going to move your legs to get in a better position to defend yourself.

But to answer the question, it's the kick that KOs her. The head bouncing off canvas is simply inertia from gravity, but you don't fall down like that unless you slip or you're close to unconsciousness. That clearly wasn't a slip.
posted by Qberting at 5:11 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


schroedinger: "She's not arrogant if she's right."

I don't know about that. There are different definitions of "arrogance". Some are about having an exaggerated sense of oneself, but others are about having an offensive attitude of superiority, even if deserved. I've had to tell my son to stop being so arrogant when he brags about being better than his brother at something, or other kids in his soccer class, or the like. It's not that he's wrong. Sometimes the things he's bragging about are things that he actually is better at. But he's also arrogant about being better.

None of that's to say that Rousey should have lost the match as comeuppance or whatnot. The only reason she should lose a fight is that her opponent did better than her. It's a contact sport, not a meditation on karma.
posted by Bugbread at 7:24 PM on November 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Silva deserved to get knocked out by Weidman in their first fight but he broke his leg in the second fight and he most assuredly wasn't clowning around that time.

The minute he was given a decision win over Hendricks that was clearly biased in favor of him, he quit because he knew that Hendricks earned the fight, even if the judges didn't see it that way. That's not what happened.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 11:24 PM on November 15, 2015


Tarverdyan is just the worst coach - "You're doing great, keep at it". What sort of corner advice is that to give to a fighter that's clearly being totally outclassed on their feet and is at that moment clearly adrenaline dumping, flustered and being hit more accurately and more often than ever before?

He had his little golden goose and he never pushed her, never pressured her just in case he lost her. Rousey's mum had plenty to say about him weeks ago and she was absolutely 100% correct. Holm has been training with Jackson/Winkeljon and they are literally *the* best gameplanners in MMA. They'll have seen the shoddy boxing that Rousey has used ("Olympic Gold Medal level" according to Tarverdyan) and gone "Holly, this is going to be a piece of piss". Holm has also been training very hard with Jon Jones and in terms of MMA skill sets there is nobody that can touch him. The oblique kicks Holm threw are pure Jones and are ideal for maintaining distance.

Up to the night of the weigh-ins I'd honestly written off Holm. I thought Rousey would bullrush, clinch and throw then arm bar. When I saw the size of Holm next to Rousey I readjusted my expectations. To see Rousey play a fricking stand up game though? What on Earth were her team thinking? Had they bought into their own bullshit?

Holm has literally been preparing for Rousey since she was brought into the UFC and just like that Rousey's light has been extinguished. If Justiano fought her I think the result would have been even worse.

I think now that the secret is out, if Zingano and Tate had another crack at it they'd have a good chance as well. Rousey *desperately* needs to switch gyms, preferably AKA or Tristar. If she stays with Tarverdyan she is going nowhere. That or quit and move to Hollywood like Carrano did.
posted by longbaugh at 4:14 AM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


Mod note: Earlier comment deleted. Fine to talk about problems with fan responses, not so much with the "maybe X Whole Country hates women."
posted by taz (staff) at 4:51 AM on November 16, 2015


Professional fighter Joe Lauzon with the troof: "Good fighters make other good fighters look bad, and that's what we saw." Also, Holly's side kick. I hope Holm fights Tate next. Give Ronda time to fully regroup and develop her boxing-for-MMA for real this time.

And what a fight Jeochaycheck* had! Women's kickboxing really had its night.

(* Actual spelling: Jędrzejczyk)
posted by daveliepmann at 5:30 AM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh, and my favorite point: the head kick knockout is highlight-reel stuff, but to really understand this fight you need to watch the first round. Holly won with that kick because she didn't throw it until its moment had come. The entire first round of footwork (cutting off the cage versus setting up the straight left) and clinch battle (refusing Ronda's grips, reversing Ronda's post-demoralization hip toss) is pure beauty in strategy and execution. I've enjoyed watching Ronda fight but Holm's performance was nothing short of stellar. It goes up alongside Silva/Weidman 1, Cain/JDS 2, and Dillashaw/Barão 1 as a picture-perfect dethroning of a dangerous champ—remember, Ronda wobbled Holm at one point, and nearly caught the armbar too!—that rewards repeated study. Not just a knockout, not just striking or grappling technique, but seamless integration of all the elements of fighting, I...it's just an incredible fight.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:37 AM on November 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


I wouldn't say in the striking game [Holly] was getting the best of Ronda, you know, but I have to watch it again.
If you were on the fence about Ronda's coach, consider the fact that he said this in the ESPN FPP link. Holly delivered straight lefts like she was fucking bike courier, and she wasn't getting the best of the striking game? She made Ronda stumble to the ground without touching her, just with head movement and footwork, and she wasn't winning the striking game? Unbelievable, this guy.
posted by daveliepmann at 6:23 AM on November 16, 2015 [4 favorites]




I wouldn't say in the striking game [Holly] was getting the best of Ronda, you know, but I have to watch it again.
Am I just missing a terminology thing where "striking" does not include "kicking one's opponent in the fucking neck"?
posted by Etrigan at 8:21 AM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Look at Browne vs. Arlovski, Duke vs.Correia and Ellenberger vs. Lawler for more great examples of Taverdyan's coaching prowess. No wonder he is bankrupt/getting screwed for tax evasion...
posted by longbaugh at 9:53 AM on November 16, 2015


One of the first things drilled into me when I started amateur boxing was to never, ever back straight up when somebody rushes you. Always pivot, sidestep, or step back at an angle. They will need to adjust, and that gives you an opening to make a counter. If you just step backwards, their momentum will overcome you.

That's what happened against virtually all of Rousey's previous opponents. Her game plan has always been the same--rush straight in, head movement be damned, eat a couple punches if necessary to get in close. And often once she got there, her opponent would grab onto her, which is exactly what she wanted!

Holm refused to take that bait for much of the fight, and controlled the range and angles perfectly with her footwork. With every shot Holm landed, Rousey's already sloppy footwork just got worse and more off balance, until she eventually ended up standing with her back to her opponent.

This was a blueprint on how to beat Rousey, and you can bet every other fighter was taking notes. If she's smart, she won't fight again until she gets a new coach, and evolves as a fighter.
posted by HighLife at 10:08 AM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ronda Rousey predicts the future with Jimmy Fallon:
I feel like she's gonna try and, like, keep distance and keep far away from me and get me frustrated until a point where I'll make a mistake and she can try and kick me in the head. But it's not gonna go like that, not the way that she wants.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:34 AM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh wow, she actually said that and it happened anyway? That sounds exactly like someone believing their own hype.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:44 AM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


As Mike Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


This is reaching way back in the thread, but:
I think people mistake [Rousey's] showmanship and knowledge of her own abilities for arrogance--and I think often they would not do so if she had a penis. Personally, I welcome women who aren't afraid to tell the world that they're fucking awesome. Perhaps one day we'll find cockiness in women as charming as we find it in men.
Conor McGregor is the clear analogy here. Both huge stars, both wildly successful, both unbelievably cocky and mouthy about it. I'd be interested how you gauge the public's response (and fans' response) to the Irishman compared to Ronda. (Using McGregor as an example sidesteps the unfortunate confounding variables of race and criminality one would run into comparing her to that other dominant and mouthy champion, Jon Jones.)
posted by daveliepmann at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Attention anybody matched up against a Jackson-Winkeljohn fighter: please do not stand in front of them. If it didn't work for Daniel Cormier or Ronda Rousey, it is not going to work for you.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:31 PM on November 16, 2015


Ugh, Conor McGregor is SO OBNOXIOUS.
posted by ChuraChura at 1:26 PM on November 16, 2015


One of the things I like about Ronda Rousey is that I don't like her.

I give her credit for being brash, unrepentant, and unpolished. I love that she doesn't care that I don't like her. I respect her for saying "No" to the idea that as a female athlete, she not only has to be awesome at her sport lest she get accused of being just a pretty face, but also she must still be...a pretty face -- who must project vulnerability and availability to all the cishetmales watching. (That is, she's not concerned with the bullshit "America's Sweetheart" label that so many love to apply to young (white) actors, musicians, and athletes.)

That said, I'm hoping this loss helps her grow. When it comes to watching MMA, I feel about her the way I feel about franchises like the Lakers, Yankees, and Cowboys in other sports: yeah, I don't like 'em, but I have more fun watching them lose when they're very good and doing well.
posted by lord_wolf at 2:49 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Rousey's coach still delusional.

Rousey’s coach: Holm wasn’t getting the better of Ronda in the striking


Aside from the whole "spinning elbow to the head" move, followed by the "knocked Rousey the heck out" move, he's not completely wrong...
posted by theorique at 2:56 PM on November 16, 2015


daveliepmann: "Holly delivered straight lefts like she was fucking bike courier"

Super curious: What does that mean?

Ronda Rousey: "I feel like she's gonna try and, like, keep distance and keep far away from me and get me frustrated until a point where I'll make a mistake and she can try and kick me in the head. But it's not gonna go like that, not the way that she wants."

Brandon Blatcher: "Oh wow, she actually said that and it happened anyway? That sounds exactly like someone believing their own hype."

I'm not sure it's an example of that (I mean, she may have believed her own hype, I'm just saying that that specific utterance is not an example of it). I do karate (and I suck at it), but I know certain guys in my dojo favor certain attacks. So before sparring, I'll often think "He's going to do X, which always gets me, but this time I'm going to do Y, so it won't work this time!" and then sparring starts and sure as the pope is catholic he will do X and it will totally get me. It's not my buying any hype.

schroedinger: "Perhaps one day we'll find cockiness in women as charming as we find it in men."

Similarly but inversely, perhaps, someday, we'll find cockiness in men as uncharming as we find it in women. Hopefully while I'm still alive, that would be neat.
posted by Bugbread at 3:42 PM on November 16, 2015


The storm of uneducated opinion in the wake of the fight has been deafening and everyone wants to pretend that they always knew how to beat Rousey, they just didn't know if Holm was the 'level of athlete' to pull it off. When someone starts talking about 'A-level athletes' and ranking fighters by 'athleticism', you should immediately disregard their opinion on anything related to fighting. Yes, Holm is a big woman for her weightclass, and holds terrific endurance, but it was her discipline, her form, and her patience which won her this fight. Her choices and composition and not her 'athleticism'.

The second moronic opinion that you will encounter is that Rousey lost because she chose to engage Holly Holm in a striking match. This fits nicely into the storyline of Rousey falling in love with her hands, being put on the cover of Ring magazine to sell copies, and so on. But it isn't true. Those who have actually followed the MMA game for a while now know that while 'striking' and 'grappling' are categorizations we make to break the sport down into understandable chunks, they are not removed from each other. Rousey's entire game is built around the clinch, and she has to get chest to chest with the opponent to achieve that.We discussed this five months ago in Killing the Queen: Ronda Rousey.
posted by ignignokt at 5:33 PM on November 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


ah yes. gimme actual fucking analysis. and the helpful gifs! i learn more in one description of one gif than i do in entire pages of "rousey was arrogant." thanks for the link.
posted by twist my arm at 5:57 PM on November 16, 2015


"Holly delivered straight lefts like she was fucking bike courier"
Super curious: What does that mean?
Sadly, I forgot a word in my metaphor. "She delivered straight lefts like she was a fucking bike courier." You know: at breakneck speed, precisely to their proper address (Ronda's chin, rather than some Manhattan office), weaving in and out of traffic (fists, rather than vehicles), with a slightly insane disregard for crashing (into the clinch, rather than a car door).

In terms of analysis, twist my arm, you may already know this but one can never go wrong with Jack Slack. His original analysis on how to beat Ronda is prescient. The other big one is Robin Black, who correctly predicted that the fight would be about range. Finally, Firas Zahabi, coach at world-class gym TriStar (from whence GSP came), has done a lot of good annotated video analyses of street fights, and did one for this fight too.

Personally I've been thinking about this fight in comparison to Machida/Weidman. Same strategic match-up, also an amazing fight, but different outcome. Obviously part of that is that these are fights—chaotic, unpredictable, and prone to being decided based on one small misstep that may or may not happen given the same set-up—but part of it seems also to be the tools Rousey failed to bring to the fight.

Against Weidman, Machida played the role of the striker (analogous to Holm): moving constantly, firing from the outside, shucking clinches. Weidman was Rousey's parallel, the wrestler with some striking: cutting off the cage, pressuring, countering the striker's potshots with gnarly exchanges and sticky tie-ups. Rousey did a fine job cutting off the cage (just like Weidman) in the first half of round 1, and indeed is a hell of a pressure fighter in this fight like her others. But Weidman had tools that Rousey does not have, and used tactics that Rousey does not use. The two that stick out to me are kicks and wrestling shots.

Unlike Weidman, Rousey throws zero kicks. She strikes almost exclusively with her hands. She also relies entirely on her judo for clinching and taking her opponent down, rather than any wrestling-based takedowns that incorporate level changes to attack the lower body. Both of these tools were critical for making the pressure game work for Weidman: leg kicks help tremendously with cutting off the cage and punishing the movement-based fighter, body kicks punish the in-and-out striker and help establish one's own range (either way outside or all the way in) against a striker who wants to dart in and out. Without those tools, Ronda was left unable to punish Holm's lateral movement and was subject to Holm's range. Her hands were clearly not enough.

In contrast, watch how hesitant Machida is as he tries to circle out from the cage. He's justifiable tentative because of the threat of kicks and knees—Weidman made each clashing interaction punishing for Machida. (Rousey's attempt to trade punches showed dividends but was markedly less effective, since she merely swung arm-punches and haymakers.) And where Rousey had to eat punches to establish a clinch, Weidman ducked under Machida's head-level strikes multiple times with level changes. There's also the fact that Weidman was able to give just as good as he got in the close-range striking battle. Without that ability, Rousey was left without much to do except try to get her tie-up and take the fight to the ground. Holm opened up as she figured out where Rousey was unable to hurt her in clashes and clinch striking. Rousey's ability to cut off the cage waned as Holm figured out where Rousey wasn't making her pay for moving laterally. And Rousey's predictable method for establishing the clinch is just about the opposite of Weidman's out-of-nowhere transitions, in which he A) gets you to forget he even wanted to take you down because he seemed to content to strike, and B) varies his attacks from tackling-type wrestling shots to pressing you against the cage to taking a bodylock on you from the striking phase.
posted by daveliepmann at 10:07 PM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


The last few comments and links in this thread have been the strongest argument for animated GIFs I believe I've ever seen.
posted by Bugbread at 10:53 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'd add Connor Ruebusch and TP Grant to the list of analysts mentioned above. Both of them posted the "roadmap to victory" for Holly Holm before the fight and both were entirely correct.
posted by longbaugh at 2:32 AM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


True. But also, I mean, the stick and move gameplan to dismantle Ronda was a known theory back at least as early as her fight with Sarah Kaufman. I thought maybe McMann the Olympic wrestler would be able to beat her in the clinch department, which failed both because Ronda was the stronger grappler and because Ronda did mix up her clinch striking quite well in that fight. And despite being dubious about her ability to match pace, I was willing to see what Davis had for Ronda on the ground. But I definitely remember yelling at my screen for Kaufman and Tate (the second time) to circle the hell out instead of brawling and getting tied up. It's that Holly had the right technical skills, experience, and, yes, athleticism to actually enact that gameplan where others failed.

—About the athleticism thing, I'm surprised Jack Slack said something so clearly wrong. Of course athleticism matters. It wasn't the deciding factor in this fight, but it definitely matters. The term can become broad to the point of uselessness, but it's not wrong as a way to refer to the combination of strength, explosiveness, flexibility,agility, and conditioning. And not only are there definitely different tiers of fighters along that dimension, but the distinction between A-level athletes and the rest of us is more and more important in the UFC specifically, just the way it is in the NFL and elite American wrestling. Part of sport is technique, part is strategy, part is luck, but part is also the progressive sifting on the basis of genetics and how well one can exploit those genetics.
posted by daveliepmann at 3:22 AM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


About the athleticism thing, I'm surprised Jack Slack said something so clearly wrong. Of course athleticism matters. It wasn't the deciding factor in this fight, but it definitely matters.

He could have been more crisp about it, but I think he was making the point you're making: It wasn't the deciding factor, and that people who say it was are wrong:
Yes, Holm is a big woman for her weightclass, and holds terrific endurance, but it was her discipline, her form, and her patience which won her this fight. Her choices and composition and not her 'athleticism'.
He did bury the lede pretty badly, and he overstated his case in the run-up to that perfectly reasonable pair of sentences.

I think there's a little sensitivity to the term "athleticism" that's been earned by its dodgy use when describing athletes of color, and when posed opposite strategy, ring craft, or other things we use to separate the smart from the well endowed. (See also: "explosive.") Depending on the context, it can feel like an attempt to explain away a favored athlete's loss or protect a prejudice from further examination.

I think I can see where Slack is coming from in the context of MMA writing: There are people who definitely prioritize grappling over striking In the hierarchy of styles, and who are going to view someone who's primarily a striker with some antagonism when that person is matched against someone who's primarily a grappler. There's also the historic antagonism between boxing fans and MMA fans. I think the longer someone's been an MMA fan, the more deeply that prejudice might be ingrained and the less happy a grappling fan will be when someone with a strong boxing pedigree walks in and breaks a champion grappler.

That's kind of putting Slack on the couch, but when I read that paragraph it felt like the sort of swipe that comes from someone who's a little exasperated with a particular kind of MMA fan.
posted by mph at 10:21 AM on November 17, 2015 [2 favorites]




UFC has put Rousey on a mandatory 6 month medical suspension. That head kick was just as devastating as it looked.
posted by Anonymous at 2:48 PM on November 18, 2015


Despite the article's title, the actual content of the article is that she's been a given mandatory 2 month medical suspension, to be extended to 6 months if a CT scan finds anything wrong.
posted by Bugbread at 3:08 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Damn, is that common, the medical suspensions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:09 PM on November 18, 2015


I've been thinking about the experience gap between Holly and Ronda.

Consider that historically, one of Ronda's major advantages was experience over her opponents. I'm not talking about specific techniques or physicality, but just having been in these high-intensity, fast-moving situations before. Her judo career gave her copious, frequent experience against top athletes grappling at maximum intensity. Few of her previous opponents could match that volume of competitive experience in elite athletics. So in addition to her skill advantage, Ronda has this base of knowledge and comfort in competition that her previous opponents couldn't match. Any tough spot that Ronda has faced in the UFC, she has faced similar on the world judo stage or in training with elite judoka for world-level competition.

(McMann is the outlier that has competed at the world level, but A) women's Olympic wrestling is not as deep as women's Olympic judo, and B) how did Ronda beat her? With strikes, which McMann did not have deep experience with.)

Now, who beats Ronda but a woman with as much experience getting hit by top-level women athletes as Ronda has grappling top-level women athletes?
"My team kept telling me during training camp 'Holly, she's not used to getting hit, she's not used to feeling what that feels like. You've been in battles before, you've been hit, you've had to fight with an eye swollen shut so you can't see, you've had to fight with a broken arm, you've had to fight with a broken nose, you've had to fight with a bloody lip, you've had to fight with a bloody nose, you've had to fight with a cut before -- and she's not used to that.
Source. This seems clearly evident at the end of the first round. I still think that Holly won through strategy and technique and athleticism. But one of the ways she could feel confident in her strategy, one of the ways her strategy made sense, was the knowledge that Ronda didn't have the striking experience, as distinct from technique and tools.
posted by daveliepmann at 11:38 PM on November 20, 2015 [1 favorite]


ESPN interview with Rousey after her loss:
"I got hit in that first round. ... I cut my lip open and knocked a couple of my teeth loose. I was out on my feet from the very beginning."
...
It's hard to square this shredded version of Rousey with the superhero a 10-minute walk away. Was she the one who put the cape on? Or did we just need her to fly?
posted by daveliepmann at 7:00 AM on December 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


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