Prepare to die. Again.
March 20, 2016 6:30 PM Subscribe
Dark Souls III [YouTube] [Trailer] Dark Souls III is coming April 12, 2016! The opening cinematic from Dark Souls III sheds a tiny beam of light onto the mystery of where and when Dark Souls III takes place. [Previously.]
Praise the Sun!
posted by painquale at 6:39 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by painquale at 6:39 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would pay good cash money to see a katamari come tumbling through about halfway through that.
posted by Naberius at 6:47 PM on March 20, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 6:47 PM on March 20, 2016 [22 favorites]
I'm more than ready. It really can't get here soon enough.
posted by codacorolla at 6:49 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 6:49 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've only just become accustomed to my hollow self in Dark Souls II and here we are being gifted with Dark Souls III. So many games, so little time, so much death.
posted by Fizz at 7:02 PM on March 20, 2016
posted by Fizz at 7:02 PM on March 20, 2016
Must be tough to be reclusive when you're a four hundred foot tall dude made out of magma.
posted by selfnoise at 7:09 PM on March 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 7:09 PM on March 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
So many games, so little time, so much death.
But enough about Mario Kart...
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:10 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
But enough about Mario Kart...
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:10 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I nearly died on level 4 of the mines in Stardew Valley.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on March 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:18 PM on March 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's interesting that they've managed to make the world of Dark Souls 1 look bright and almost hopeful by comparison. At least you still had sunlight if you went high enough, and there was evidence that although things were on a definite decline there were still regular humans and towns outside Lordran.
posted by coolname at 7:22 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by coolname at 7:22 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know nothing about these games (the only console I've owned since the Sega Dreamcast, may its glories be forever sung, was a Wii), so my major takeaway here was essentially holy shit, these things have come a long way since King's Quest.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:38 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by middleclasstool at 7:38 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Dank Souls is for stoners.
posted by ACair at 7:53 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ACair at 7:53 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
The opening cinematic from Dark Souls III sheds a tiny beam of light
If only I could be so grossly incandescent!
posted by naju at 7:55 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
If only I could be so grossly incandescent!
posted by naju at 7:55 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm a bad hollow. The DkS2 DLC is still on my to-do list and I don't even have a console that can run 3. Feeling very crestfallen right now.
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:03 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:03 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dark Souls is a series that I had heard so much good buzz about that I eventually decided to pick it up, even though I had to teach myself to use a controller to play it. And now I get it. It's genre-defining. The atmosphere and lore and story-telling are unlike anything else in how cryptic and mysterious and dreamlike they are. And the gameplay itself is also really absorbing.
VaatiVidya's Youtube videos are great on lore and theory. For instance, here's an argument that The Rotten from Dark Souls 2 is Pharros the Vagabond, who got hold of Nito's Lord Soul from Dark Souls 1. I love that none of this stuff is spelled out in the game and that it's all open to interpretation. (The personal theory I like is that the Pursuer from DS2 is the Chosen Undead from DS1 if you choose to not link the flame.)
From this Dark Souls 3 opening, it looks like the bosses will be linkers of the flame (like Gwyn), not possessors of the Lord Souls. I hope the Lord Souls return. They're an important connection between the games.
posted by painquale at 8:08 PM on March 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
VaatiVidya's Youtube videos are great on lore and theory. For instance, here's an argument that The Rotten from Dark Souls 2 is Pharros the Vagabond, who got hold of Nito's Lord Soul from Dark Souls 1. I love that none of this stuff is spelled out in the game and that it's all open to interpretation. (The personal theory I like is that the Pursuer from DS2 is the Chosen Undead from DS1 if you choose to not link the flame.)
From this Dark Souls 3 opening, it looks like the bosses will be linkers of the flame (like Gwyn), not possessors of the Lord Souls. I hope the Lord Souls return. They're an important connection between the games.
posted by painquale at 8:08 PM on March 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
(Oops, that video on The Rotten is not a VaatiVidya video. Still neat though!)
posted by painquale at 8:10 PM on March 20, 2016
posted by painquale at 8:10 PM on March 20, 2016
The atmosphere and lore and story-telling are unlike anything else in how cryptic and mysterious and dreamlike they are.
You say "cryptic" and "mysterious" and I say "opaque", "tedious", and possibly "lazy". Sometimes I feel like the dude pointing out the Emperor has no clothes.
I'll still play the hell out of it but that's despite rather than because of the story. Or rather for reasons orthogonal to it I guess, since as far as I'm concerned there basically is no story beyond "kill all these dudes without really understanding what is going on or why you are killing all these dudes".
At least DS2 was a marginal improvement on the awful grinding involved in DS1. Do you guys remember grinding rats for soul drops? OH MY GOD MAKE IT STOP.
posted by Justinian at 9:02 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
You say "cryptic" and "mysterious" and I say "opaque", "tedious", and possibly "lazy". Sometimes I feel like the dude pointing out the Emperor has no clothes.
I'll still play the hell out of it but that's despite rather than because of the story. Or rather for reasons orthogonal to it I guess, since as far as I'm concerned there basically is no story beyond "kill all these dudes without really understanding what is going on or why you are killing all these dudes".
At least DS2 was a marginal improvement on the awful grinding involved in DS1. Do you guys remember grinding rats for soul drops? OH MY GOD MAKE IT STOP.
posted by Justinian at 9:02 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Like, I don't play a game to make up the story in my head. If I'm making the story up in my head I don't need your game in the first place.
posted by Justinian at 9:03 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 9:03 PM on March 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hugely excited for this. I played the hell out of Bloodborne and then picked up Dark Souls for my PC. I haven't finished it yet. I haven't gotten past Ornstein and Smough. Figuring out good strategies for each new battle is a real delight, though. I hope this latest game lives up to its predecessors.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:10 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:10 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Imperialistic house of prayer
Conquistadors who took their share
oh wait
posted by Existential Dread at 9:15 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Conquistadors who took their share
oh wait
posted by Existential Dread at 9:15 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oof, don't remind me of getting stuck on Ornstein and Smough. I had to come back to the game a year later to get past them. It really drilled into me the need to be patient; I haven't looked into the actual numbers but if you manage to actually use up all your estus instead of dying to being punished for poorly-considered attacks I think your effective HP ends up being higher than that of many bosses.
posted by coolname at 9:22 PM on March 20, 2016
posted by coolname at 9:22 PM on March 20, 2016
I am so excited for this. Both Bloodborne and Dark Souls are in my top ten games of all time. Video games really excel at worldbuilding and the people at From are one of the best in the world at this. Their art direction is superb, the amount of detail and history that's seeped into every ounce of the game is phenomenal.
I have a lot of thoughts swirling around about how Dark Souls/Bloodborne have completely nailed the grammar of their art. It's a hugely common sentiment among people for whom these games click that it's so difficult to play other things. If you have six hours I would recommend mathewmattosis on Dark Souls. Yes, it's six hours, but it's worth it.
>Justinian
Ok, I'm a huge fan of the way the games tell the story. How your character is a visitor in the world and you uncover the history of the world, characters and factions in it. Calling it lazy is such a misguided dismissal when the amount of discussions about lore and story number in the hundreds and still today. Even without paying too much attention I can still follow the story of Ds, DeS, and BB. What I'm saying is that I very firmly, and strongly disagree with you.
posted by Neronomius at 9:34 PM on March 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
I have a lot of thoughts swirling around about how Dark Souls/Bloodborne have completely nailed the grammar of their art. It's a hugely common sentiment among people for whom these games click that it's so difficult to play other things. If you have six hours I would recommend mathewmattosis on Dark Souls. Yes, it's six hours, but it's worth it.
>Justinian
Ok, I'm a huge fan of the way the games tell the story. How your character is a visitor in the world and you uncover the history of the world, characters and factions in it. Calling it lazy is such a misguided dismissal when the amount of discussions about lore and story number in the hundreds and still today. Even without paying too much attention I can still follow the story of Ds, DeS, and BB. What I'm saying is that I very firmly, and strongly disagree with you.
posted by Neronomius at 9:34 PM on March 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
One of my favorite things about Dark Souls is how Ornstein and Smough teach you to use patience, deliberation, environmental obstacles, and (if necessary) teamwork to get past a difficult boss fight, and then a short time later the Four Kings brutally punish you if you try to apply those very same lessons.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:42 PM on March 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:42 PM on March 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
You say "cryptic" and "mysterious" and I say "opaque", "tedious", and possibly "lazy".
Opaque I can grant, and tedious for some I can grant, but it's definitely not lazy. So much about the storytelling style is intentional. In interviews, Miyazaki has said that he's always loved American media, but his English wasn't good enough to piece everything together. He didn't really get what was going on, and he had to try to cobble together explanations in his head. But that sense of confusion and process of interpretation was an aesthetic experience in itself. That is the kind of experience he's trying to replicate. It's a perfect fit with the theme of these games, where you're in a kind of dreamlike purgatory in which countless civilizations have risen and fallen and all their myths have blurred onto one another.
They do a great job of it, I think. It doesn't feel like they just put in a few items and leave players to draw their own conclusions. That would be lazy. Instead, it feels subtractive: like there's a massive myth they have in mind and they've selectively revealed only portions of it to the player. A big reason for this is that every enemy and every item makes sense for its location. (Well, in DS1 anyway. DS2 had some problems until the Scholar of the First Sin patch.) Often, if there's a Hollowed knight you wouldn't expect to see in some area, you'll find out later in some item description that that knight's king sent an expedition there to search for something or other. Everything feels cohesive. That makes the player want to piece things together. And when you start trying to figure out the story, it becomes really obvious that there is great care taken to give the player a confusing but tantalizing experience. All sorts of red herrings are planted around to generate lots of conflicting interpretations; the developers understand what exploratory players will be feeling, and they cater to them.
The only other game I've played that is quite like Dark Souls, where your environment is a palimpsest of civilizations and and where the narration is unreliable and where everything you interact with is a potential source of story, is Fallen London.
posted by painquale at 9:43 PM on March 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
Opaque I can grant, and tedious for some I can grant, but it's definitely not lazy. So much about the storytelling style is intentional. In interviews, Miyazaki has said that he's always loved American media, but his English wasn't good enough to piece everything together. He didn't really get what was going on, and he had to try to cobble together explanations in his head. But that sense of confusion and process of interpretation was an aesthetic experience in itself. That is the kind of experience he's trying to replicate. It's a perfect fit with the theme of these games, where you're in a kind of dreamlike purgatory in which countless civilizations have risen and fallen and all their myths have blurred onto one another.
They do a great job of it, I think. It doesn't feel like they just put in a few items and leave players to draw their own conclusions. That would be lazy. Instead, it feels subtractive: like there's a massive myth they have in mind and they've selectively revealed only portions of it to the player. A big reason for this is that every enemy and every item makes sense for its location. (Well, in DS1 anyway. DS2 had some problems until the Scholar of the First Sin patch.) Often, if there's a Hollowed knight you wouldn't expect to see in some area, you'll find out later in some item description that that knight's king sent an expedition there to search for something or other. Everything feels cohesive. That makes the player want to piece things together. And when you start trying to figure out the story, it becomes really obvious that there is great care taken to give the player a confusing but tantalizing experience. All sorts of red herrings are planted around to generate lots of conflicting interpretations; the developers understand what exploratory players will be feeling, and they cater to them.
The only other game I've played that is quite like Dark Souls, where your environment is a palimpsest of civilizations and and where the narration is unreliable and where everything you interact with is a potential source of story, is Fallen London.
posted by painquale at 9:43 PM on March 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
it feels subtractive
your environment is a palimpsest of civilizations
Yes! This nails it. I really enjoy when people wax philosophical about these games.
posted by naju at 9:53 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
your environment is a palimpsest of civilizations
Yes! This nails it. I really enjoy when people wax philosophical about these games.
posted by naju at 9:53 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
All I know is that I've played a dozen games with some kind of hydra monster, but Dark Souls is the only one to ever give me the feeling of, "Wait, what is that off in the mists? Is that...? Could it...? MY GOD, IT'S THE HYDRA!"
posted by straight at 10:07 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by straight at 10:07 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Heh, heh heh he he heh heh . . .
posted by Sebmojo at 10:09 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 10:09 PM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
(And Dark Souls gave me similar feelings several times. The game feels genuinely mythological in ways that are unlike any other game I've played.)
posted by straight at 10:09 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by straight at 10:09 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Be wary of death
posted by NMcCoy at 10:26 PM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by NMcCoy at 10:26 PM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
The messages make me sad. "Secret door ahead" right in front of a wall. I know it's a troll. I know it. But I still spend five minutes running into the wall.
posted by Justinian at 11:04 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:04 PM on March 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I will never play these games, but I really love watching LPs and reading about Dark Souls 1, especially. I like hearing other people's lore and trying to make sense of it myself. It didn't seem so opaque once I connected Gwyn's aspect of fire, light, to fame/status/recognition. Thinking of it that way a lot of things made sense to me, and the DS1 world seems actually very thoughtful and thematic.
Like, why is Gwyn's heir unknown, why did New Londo fail? Well there may be specific details to those events, but the big picture is those things must happen. Gwyn is about light without life, so he is about grandeur, sterility, fame, status, stasis. He seeks permanence, in defiance of the nature of fire. How can there be heirs and a New Londo when Gwyn and Anor Londo still exist and must continue to exist undiminished? So both of those things threaten Gwyn and get kicked from the light. The opposite of light/fame is darkness/anonymity, so new Londo is drowned, its lords flushed into an abyss of total darkness, and Gwyn's firstborn is nameless and forgotten, as lost as Izalith.
I have tried to watch DS2 but the maps are kinda boring, and it feels like there's too much exposition, the lore is too fine-grained. Not enough dreams and myths and symbols, or at least I haven't been able to connect with them yet. I hope DS3 is more like BB. I just have to wait for someone to LP it...
posted by nom de poop at 2:17 AM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like, why is Gwyn's heir unknown, why did New Londo fail? Well there may be specific details to those events, but the big picture is those things must happen. Gwyn is about light without life, so he is about grandeur, sterility, fame, status, stasis. He seeks permanence, in defiance of the nature of fire. How can there be heirs and a New Londo when Gwyn and Anor Londo still exist and must continue to exist undiminished? So both of those things threaten Gwyn and get kicked from the light. The opposite of light/fame is darkness/anonymity, so new Londo is drowned, its lords flushed into an abyss of total darkness, and Gwyn's firstborn is nameless and forgotten, as lost as Izalith.
I have tried to watch DS2 but the maps are kinda boring, and it feels like there's too much exposition, the lore is too fine-grained. Not enough dreams and myths and symbols, or at least I haven't been able to connect with them yet. I hope DS3 is more like BB. I just have to wait for someone to LP it...
posted by nom de poop at 2:17 AM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
But that sense of confusion and process of interpretation was an aesthetic experience in itself. That is the kind of experience he's trying to replicate. It's a perfect fit with the theme of these games, where you're in a kind of dreamlike purgatory in which countless civilizations have risen and fallen and all their myths have blurred onto one another.
Indeed. That is one aspect of this series that I find most fascinating. I've only played Dark Souls II and I love that I'm thrown into this world with very little knowledge. There are clues if you pay attention, but that's up to the player to piece them together. And a major part of that game play (the hollowing, the constant death and rebirth), it works so well with the story of the game. The more you play (the more you die), the more you start to see how you fit into this world, how that shapes part of your story and journey. I apologize if I'm not explaining it well. But I'm fascinated by this universe.
posted by Fizz at 4:17 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Indeed. That is one aspect of this series that I find most fascinating. I've only played Dark Souls II and I love that I'm thrown into this world with very little knowledge. There are clues if you pay attention, but that's up to the player to piece them together. And a major part of that game play (the hollowing, the constant death and rebirth), it works so well with the story of the game. The more you play (the more you die), the more you start to see how you fit into this world, how that shapes part of your story and journey. I apologize if I'm not explaining it well. But I'm fascinated by this universe.
posted by Fizz at 4:17 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a little bummed that (gameplay spoilers?) it looks like fast travel is unlocked from the start a la ds2. The first game was so unique and engrossing in how you really had to learn the maps and shortcuts of each area and had to develop a mental map of the game. There was a kind of relief and dread in progression, as each bonfire was both a light in the darkness and a checkpoint that meant it became more and more difficult to return to 'civilization' the further you progressed. Descending into Blighttown for the first time you could feel the weight of the distance back to Firelink above you. (Playing again, it's not THAT far--but it feels that way, when you're still fighting for every inch, and the progressive hopelessness of your surroundings is a weight all its own.) And the relief when you finally get back and see the sun again, and hear the music at the shrine! I've never experienced anything like that journey in a game before or since.
posted by sonmi at 4:48 AM on March 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by sonmi at 4:48 AM on March 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dark Souls is dreamlike on the surface, but when you start to piece the puzzle together its world turns out to have a rigorous internal logic to it - and that underlying coherence is a large part of why it works so well. DS2 is dreamlike as well, but more in a "what the hell just happened? that doesn't make any sense" kind of way. Large parts of Bloodborne are explicitly set in dreams and it still makes a lot more sense than DS2.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 5:02 AM on March 21, 2016
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 5:02 AM on March 21, 2016
Found a fascinating and insightful interview with Hidetaka Miyazaki. [VG247] I clipped some of the more interesting sections of the interview:
“Dark Souls 2 was of course built and supervised by other people at From Software, and so it matched their preference,” he explains. “So, in terms of the world design, and other elements, my preference is to return to something structurally a little more like the first game, and Bloodborne, with the world a little more connected.”
“Well, there were of course several moments where I had to stop things and take a step back and consider the difficulty,” he says with a smile. “But it’s not necessarily that I say ‘oh, this is too difficult,’ but instead the term I usually use is ‘unreasonable.’ So, that’s the term I tend to use when I have these conversations with the development team.”posted by Fizz at 5:07 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
“When you think about it, the difficulty in the Dark Souls franchise so far has been something that players have eventually been able to overcome. So when I show concern to the development team members, that’s why the term I use is unreasonable – basically, we don’t want to go too far. It’s about striking a balance.”
I agree that fast-travel-by-default is likely a mistake, not just for the atmosphere but for the sense of entitlement it gives you. I really resented having to do the (long, spidery) route to fight The Duke's Dear Freja from the nearest bonfire in Brightstone Cove Tseldora, because in most other areas, there was a bonfire right there, by the boss!
And having a bonfire with easy access to the boss isn't necessarily a problem, except that if you can warp in and out at will, you get used to playing the game in whatever order you want, not whatever order you've forced yourself into. I still like Dark Souls II, but it's really missing a lot of those minor things that made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls so perversely charming.
posted by smcg at 5:14 AM on March 21, 2016
And having a bonfire with easy access to the boss isn't necessarily a problem, except that if you can warp in and out at will, you get used to playing the game in whatever order you want, not whatever order you've forced yourself into. I still like Dark Souls II, but it's really missing a lot of those minor things that made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls so perversely charming.
posted by smcg at 5:14 AM on March 21, 2016
Also: Early Dark Souls 3 PC Gameplay [YouTube] [IGN]
I've only played Dark Souls II. I'm wanting to go back and play the original. Having played the second one first, is it to get used to the gameplay? Or are they different enough that it shouldn't be an issue? I'm aware of the fact that fast-travel was added into the second one, but what other major issues/concerns should I be aware of if I decide to go back?
posted by Fizz at 5:19 AM on March 21, 2016
I've only played Dark Souls II. I'm wanting to go back and play the original. Having played the second one first, is it to get used to the gameplay? Or are they different enough that it shouldn't be an issue? I'm aware of the fact that fast-travel was added into the second one, but what other major issues/concerns should I be aware of if I decide to go back?
posted by Fizz at 5:19 AM on March 21, 2016
It's interesting that they've managed to make the world of Dark Souls 1 look bright and almost hopeful by comparison.
I really like that about the first game, it's so so pretty and varied, the sequel just looks so grey and brown and muted. Even BB is a bit too teal & orangey for my taste but not nearly as drab as DS2 is.
Having played the second one first, is it to get used to the gameplay?
They're similar enough, don't worry. Compared to DS2, shields in DS1 are much more useful and adaptability as a stat is gone, you need to pay attention to your equip load (linked to Endurance) instead. There are different roll speeds with different iframe counts, with notable hard break points at 25% and 50% equip load. There's no UI indication of this, but you can visibly tell by your character's movement when you change roll type. Rings can't be repaired, so cheesing the ring of sacrifice requires a different approach.
Weapon upgrade trees are also very different, I'm pressed for time now but I may post a summary later if you're interested.
posted by Bangaioh at 6:02 AM on March 21, 2016
I really like that about the first game, it's so so pretty and varied, the sequel just looks so grey and brown and muted. Even BB is a bit too teal & orangey for my taste but not nearly as drab as DS2 is.
Having played the second one first, is it to get used to the gameplay?
They're similar enough, don't worry. Compared to DS2, shields in DS1 are much more useful and adaptability as a stat is gone, you need to pay attention to your equip load (linked to Endurance) instead. There are different roll speeds with different iframe counts, with notable hard break points at 25% and 50% equip load. There's no UI indication of this, but you can visibly tell by your character's movement when you change roll type. Rings can't be repaired, so cheesing the ring of sacrifice requires a different approach.
Weapon upgrade trees are also very different, I'm pressed for time now but I may post a summary later if you're interested.
posted by Bangaioh at 6:02 AM on March 21, 2016
this whole trailer sounds like: "Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!" to me...
posted by ennui.bz at 6:03 AM on March 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ennui.bz at 6:03 AM on March 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I won't have time to dive into Dark Souls 3. And boy am I rather, oddly glad.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:14 AM on March 21, 2016
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:14 AM on March 21, 2016
Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the McKetrick supplicants, they chose a new form for him: that of a giant Slor! Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you!
Except sung by Ozzy Osbourne. While eating a bat or something.
posted by Naberius at 6:47 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Except sung by Ozzy Osbourne. While eating a bat or something.
posted by Naberius at 6:47 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because we don't have enough Dark Souls in our lives, this game called Salt and Sanctuary just came out on PS4 and is a 2D Dark Souls-ish game by the makers of The Dishwasher.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/salt-and-sanctuary
I'm barely resisting...
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:13 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/salt-and-sanctuary
I'm barely resisting...
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:13 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Rings can't be repaired, so cheesing the ring of sacrifice requires a different approach.
Once I discovered this, it nearly broke DS2 for me. If anyone has yet to play through DS2, I recommend avoiding that ring entirely.
posted by naju at 9:19 AM on March 21, 2016
Once I discovered this, it nearly broke DS2 for me. If anyone has yet to play through DS2, I recommend avoiding that ring entirely.
posted by naju at 9:19 AM on March 21, 2016
this game called Salt and Sanctuary just came out
I've only played an hour or so, but it seems good! It really nails the Souls gameplay and atmosphere, but in a 2D form. It's almost outright theft, actually, but I don't mind because I can't get enough of this kind of game. It also adds a Symphony of the Night feel to the combat that feels refreshing. Worth checking out.
posted by naju at 9:22 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've only played an hour or so, but it seems good! It really nails the Souls gameplay and atmosphere, but in a 2D form. It's almost outright theft, actually, but I don't mind because I can't get enough of this kind of game. It also adds a Symphony of the Night feel to the combat that feels refreshing. Worth checking out.
posted by naju at 9:22 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am baffled when people think Dark Souls is lazy or punishing. It is the most coherent and well thought out experience possible, I'm pretty sure. Everything in there is so. freaking. precise.
DS2 was enjoyable, but not nearly on the level of DS1.
DS3 is going to be insane. So hype.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:24 AM on March 21, 2016
DS2 was enjoyable, but not nearly on the level of DS1.
DS3 is going to be insane. So hype.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 9:24 AM on March 21, 2016
I am baffled when people think Dark Souls is lazy or punishing.
Whenever I hear a similar remark, I also have to shake my head. I'm not good at playing Dark Souls 2, but I love the atmosphere, I love it when I finally get past a particularly difficult boss, I enjoy that the game rewards patience and careful thinking. The game can be a beast, but it's always fair in the way it goes about destroying you. And you learn something with every death.
posted by Fizz at 9:33 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Whenever I hear a similar remark, I also have to shake my head. I'm not good at playing Dark Souls 2, but I love the atmosphere, I love it when I finally get past a particularly difficult boss, I enjoy that the game rewards patience and careful thinking. The game can be a beast, but it's always fair in the way it goes about destroying you. And you learn something with every death.
posted by Fizz at 9:33 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm currently replaying DS2 (for a Let's Play), hoping to finish before DS3 comes out (which I also plan to LP, though in a different format).
I definitely prefer DS2 over DS1 in terms of the beautiful art direction, the smoother feel of the combat, and the pretty elegant respawn/difficulty control system provided by the Bonfire Aescetics. Yes, it's a shame that DS2's maps aren't as intricately interlocked as DS1's, but so many people hold that up as the single thing that makes DS1 king and DS2 trash, and that is flatly mystifying to me. It's cool, but it's not all that.
I'm going to be severely disappointed if DS3 is more like DS1 in that you spend 90% of the game either in a sewer or a totally black cave instead of e.g. Heide's Tower of Flame.
posted by rifflesby at 10:17 AM on March 21, 2016
I definitely prefer DS2 over DS1 in terms of the beautiful art direction, the smoother feel of the combat, and the pretty elegant respawn/difficulty control system provided by the Bonfire Aescetics. Yes, it's a shame that DS2's maps aren't as intricately interlocked as DS1's, but so many people hold that up as the single thing that makes DS1 king and DS2 trash, and that is flatly mystifying to me. It's cool, but it's not all that.
I'm going to be severely disappointed if DS3 is more like DS1 in that you spend 90% of the game either in a sewer or a totally black cave instead of e.g. Heide's Tower of Flame.
posted by rifflesby at 10:17 AM on March 21, 2016
I'm also a horrible hollow lately. I haven't beaten DS2 nor Bloodborne. Worse, I've now purchased Daemon Souls and haven't even played once yet. Some of it has been temporary (busy at work meaning I'm staying 30-60 minutes longer often than I should, just recently stopped having an ailing dog) loss of time. Deciding to become a runner has eaten a whole tonne of time that potentially could go towards gaming.
But another big part is my kids (12 and 16) have been using the consoles significantly more. And while we've made the rule that Mom and Dad get priority use of the consoles, I still feel bad kicking one of them off so I can play. Part of that is that currently one of my kids is significantly better at DS1 and 2 than me and just a bit better at bloodborne. My youngest is probably approaching parity with me for DS1 and 2 (but he hasn't bothered to try bloodborne). They've got significantly more practice time, and the 16 year old spends so much time on forums, walk throughs, learning all the glitches, etc. I don't touch any of that until I've beaten a game.
When I was playing DS1, I had near to godlike capabilities compared to them. They'd been raised on easier games (and generally choosing the easier levels of difficulty if there were choices) and Dark Souls was much harder for them than it was for me. Playing with them watching over my shoulder seemed more enjoyable; they'd be learning techniques from me, and in their mind I was the equivalent of a reasonable let's play. Now, knowing there will be a certain amount of eye rolling and impatience over my play it seems much more inviting to read while they play instead of playing in front of them (more often than not, they will choose to watch, or at least use their own devices in the same room if I'm playing).
I'm not sure why, but dying feels more emotionally painful in bloodborne than in the DS series. I find myself trying significantly harder to avoid dying leading to me being conservative in some areas, despite bloodborne being significantly more tuned for aggressive play.
Because of the brightness, and increased "cartoony" feel to the characters, DS2 actually seems like some kind of Dark Souls and Zelda mashup than a true successor to Dark Souls to me. The setting of DS3 seems much more appealing than DS2 did to me. Which leaves me wondering whether I'll resist paying the high initial price for launch day when I haven't beaten DS2 and Bloodborne yet. Surely I can wait a few months it at least drops to $60 CDN, right ? ... right?
posted by nobeagle at 10:34 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
But another big part is my kids (12 and 16) have been using the consoles significantly more. And while we've made the rule that Mom and Dad get priority use of the consoles, I still feel bad kicking one of them off so I can play. Part of that is that currently one of my kids is significantly better at DS1 and 2 than me and just a bit better at bloodborne. My youngest is probably approaching parity with me for DS1 and 2 (but he hasn't bothered to try bloodborne). They've got significantly more practice time, and the 16 year old spends so much time on forums, walk throughs, learning all the glitches, etc. I don't touch any of that until I've beaten a game.
When I was playing DS1, I had near to godlike capabilities compared to them. They'd been raised on easier games (and generally choosing the easier levels of difficulty if there were choices) and Dark Souls was much harder for them than it was for me. Playing with them watching over my shoulder seemed more enjoyable; they'd be learning techniques from me, and in their mind I was the equivalent of a reasonable let's play. Now, knowing there will be a certain amount of eye rolling and impatience over my play it seems much more inviting to read while they play instead of playing in front of them (more often than not, they will choose to watch, or at least use their own devices in the same room if I'm playing).
I'm not sure why, but dying feels more emotionally painful in bloodborne than in the DS series. I find myself trying significantly harder to avoid dying leading to me being conservative in some areas, despite bloodborne being significantly more tuned for aggressive play.
Because of the brightness, and increased "cartoony" feel to the characters, DS2 actually seems like some kind of Dark Souls and Zelda mashup than a true successor to Dark Souls to me. The setting of DS3 seems much more appealing than DS2 did to me. Which leaves me wondering whether I'll resist paying the high initial price for launch day when I haven't beaten DS2 and Bloodborne yet. Surely I can wait a few months it at least drops to $60 CDN, right ? ... right?
posted by nobeagle at 10:34 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because of the brightness, and increased "cartoony" feel to the characters, DS2 actually seems like some kind of Dark Souls and Zelda mashup than a true successor to Dark Souls to me.
Hmm, interesting. Dark Souls II always had a very cold feel to me. It often feels like I'm in a J.M.W. Turner painting. Something like this.
posted by Fizz at 10:47 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hmm, interesting. Dark Souls II always had a very cold feel to me. It often feels like I'm in a J.M.W. Turner painting. Something like this.
posted by Fizz at 10:47 AM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
awful grinding involved in DS1. Do you guys remember grinding rats for soul drops?
I think you mean grinding for Humanity, since rats drop that and very few souls. But they're not a good source of Humanity, and the game doesn't ever require you to grind for it. If you do want to farm Humanity (which is not required at any point), better options include farming the Pisacas in the Duke's Archives, using the Dark Hand to steal it from NPCs, and I think you can farm from weird sprites in the DLC area too. All of that is fairly late game, but early on you can also kill enemies in various areas where the boss hasn't been beaten yet and be periodically awarded Humanity. Undead Burg, Undead Parish, Anor Londo, and the Painted World are all good spots.
I agree that fast-travel-by-default is likely a mistake, not just for the atmosphere but for the sense of entitlement it gives you.
Demon's Souls also has warping enabled by default, and doesn't suffer for it, IMO. Dark Souls is the odd one out, and to be honest backtracking to and fro through Darkroot is kind of tedious to me. I prefer the Demon's approach of letting you dabble in distinct and separate worlds, and you can still get in over your head in places where warping won't save you, like in the long shortcut drop in Stonefang, or trying to get back from the Regenerator's Ring shortcut in Shrine of Storms. But Demon's has more distinct and foreboding locations than Dark Souls 2, so the shortcuts feel different.
Weapon upgrade trees are also very different, I'm pressed for time now but I may post a summary later if you're interested.
I'll try. There are three tiers to the upgrade system, and the branch out every five upgrade points. So your Battle Axe can be made a Battle Axe +1, +2, up to +5. After that, you can take your +5 Axe in a few directions. You can carry on and make a +6 Axe, or make it a +1 on one of the special trees: Magic, Divine, Fire (or Raw, but that sucks). After another five points (normal +10, or Magic/Divine/Fire +5), you can branch again. Normal +10 can stay on the normal path (to +15) or switch to Lightning or Crystal, or become the appropriate Boss Soul weapon. Magic/Divine/Fire can stay on those paths (to +10), or switch to a side path (Enchanted/Occult/Chaos, respectively, to +5).
Different blacksmiths do different kinds of upgrade, and you have to unlock most of the upgrades by finding special embers.
Titanite Shards take your weapon up to +5. Buy in the Parish for 800 souls.
Large Titanite Shards (normal/Raw) or Green Titanite Shards (Magic/Divine/Fire) take your weapon to +10. Large can be bought in Sen's Fortress for 4000 souls. Green Titanite Shards might be buyable in Anor Londo, but I forget (I normally farm them from the slugs in Blighttown).
Titanite Chunks, Blue Titanite Chunks, White Titanite Chunks, and Red Titanite Chunks will continue the upgrades (Blue for Magic/Enchanted, White Divine/Occult, Red Fire/Chaos, plain for normal/Lightning/Crystal). These can't be bought, but can be farmed in the four areas with Lord Souls from specific enemies. To finish off the weapon to max power you'll need Pure Titanite instead of Titanite Chunks, but it's not worth trying to farm Pure Titanite.
Oh, and boss soul weapons use Demon Titanite, dropped by a recurring but not respawning enemy you'll find throughout the game.
Armor also uses normal Titanite, but not the colored stuff.
Finally, some special gear uses Twinkling Titanite or Dragon Scales. Twinkling Titanite can be bought and some special armor uses it. Dragon Scales can only be farmed, and is only for weapons, not armor. Equipment that uses these upgrade items is completely separate from the main upgrade path.
posted by OnSecondThought at 10:56 AM on March 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think you mean grinding for Humanity, since rats drop that and very few souls. But they're not a good source of Humanity, and the game doesn't ever require you to grind for it. If you do want to farm Humanity (which is not required at any point), better options include farming the Pisacas in the Duke's Archives, using the Dark Hand to steal it from NPCs, and I think you can farm from weird sprites in the DLC area too. All of that is fairly late game, but early on you can also kill enemies in various areas where the boss hasn't been beaten yet and be periodically awarded Humanity. Undead Burg, Undead Parish, Anor Londo, and the Painted World are all good spots.
I agree that fast-travel-by-default is likely a mistake, not just for the atmosphere but for the sense of entitlement it gives you.
Demon's Souls also has warping enabled by default, and doesn't suffer for it, IMO. Dark Souls is the odd one out, and to be honest backtracking to and fro through Darkroot is kind of tedious to me. I prefer the Demon's approach of letting you dabble in distinct and separate worlds, and you can still get in over your head in places where warping won't save you, like in the long shortcut drop in Stonefang, or trying to get back from the Regenerator's Ring shortcut in Shrine of Storms. But Demon's has more distinct and foreboding locations than Dark Souls 2, so the shortcuts feel different.
Weapon upgrade trees are also very different, I'm pressed for time now but I may post a summary later if you're interested.
I'll try. There are three tiers to the upgrade system, and the branch out every five upgrade points. So your Battle Axe can be made a Battle Axe +1, +2, up to +5. After that, you can take your +5 Axe in a few directions. You can carry on and make a +6 Axe, or make it a +1 on one of the special trees: Magic, Divine, Fire (or Raw, but that sucks). After another five points (normal +10, or Magic/Divine/Fire +5), you can branch again. Normal +10 can stay on the normal path (to +15) or switch to Lightning or Crystal, or become the appropriate Boss Soul weapon. Magic/Divine/Fire can stay on those paths (to +10), or switch to a side path (Enchanted/Occult/Chaos, respectively, to +5).
Different blacksmiths do different kinds of upgrade, and you have to unlock most of the upgrades by finding special embers.
Titanite Shards take your weapon up to +5. Buy in the Parish for 800 souls.
Large Titanite Shards (normal/Raw) or Green Titanite Shards (Magic/Divine/Fire) take your weapon to +10. Large can be bought in Sen's Fortress for 4000 souls. Green Titanite Shards might be buyable in Anor Londo, but I forget (I normally farm them from the slugs in Blighttown).
Titanite Chunks, Blue Titanite Chunks, White Titanite Chunks, and Red Titanite Chunks will continue the upgrades (Blue for Magic/Enchanted, White Divine/Occult, Red Fire/Chaos, plain for normal/Lightning/Crystal). These can't be bought, but can be farmed in the four areas with Lord Souls from specific enemies. To finish off the weapon to max power you'll need Pure Titanite instead of Titanite Chunks, but it's not worth trying to farm Pure Titanite.
Oh, and boss soul weapons use Demon Titanite, dropped by a recurring but not respawning enemy you'll find throughout the game.
Armor also uses normal Titanite, but not the colored stuff.
Finally, some special gear uses Twinkling Titanite or Dragon Scales. Twinkling Titanite can be bought and some special armor uses it. Dragon Scales can only be farmed, and is only for weapons, not armor. Equipment that uses these upgrade items is completely separate from the main upgrade path.
posted by OnSecondThought at 10:56 AM on March 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've played the entire series now - most recently finished Demon's, and I'm now doing one last final completionist run through Bloodborne. They're all good games for different reasons. Even DS2 has some advantages. Mostly in weapon variety, including the ability to powerstance, and the vast number of movesets and options, even if ranged is slightly nerfed.
Bloodborne is my favorite of the series, for sure. The quick movement, ability to trade hits to restore health, the role that firearms and arcane play as supplementary ranged damage, the world, the story, and streamlining of the stat system, the lack of random drops, the one direction upgrade, the ability to side-grade with gems... I could go on. It really does feel like the best use of the souls format yet. From what I've seen of DS3 it seems like they're going back to the more dungeon-crawly things of DeS, DaS and DS2 (equip load, random drops, direct damage magic across several schools, multiple upgrade paths), instead of BB's stripped down, arcadey feel. I'm fine with that, even if I think I prefer the latter.
RE: The story, I like the take on it that you are doing archcaeology when you're figuring out the story. Essentially, what has happened is contained in fragments that are only partially available to you: what people think (NPC dialogue), epic history (intro cinematics), what you see (architecture and enemy placement), and fragmentary histories (item descriptions). Delving into any of that is strictly optional. You can play the whole thing and figure out as much story as Mario has (you're good, this thing is evil, kill this thing), or you can dive into the data the game gives you to piece it all together. Even though some interpretation is necessary, it's pretty clear that there is actually a story there that has been broken up into pieces for you to find - as someone said up-thread, it's the subtractive mode of storytelling.
For that reason, my favorite lore video person is Jerks Sans Frontieres, who focuses on BB, and approaches the game like a historian or archaeologist might approach a lost civilization. His video analyses have shown me things I never would've seen on my own. For example, the gross slug things in Nightmare Frontier - did you know that they have pitch-black shadow messengers on their undersides? As far through as my third playthrough, I certainly never did. The archaeological perspective to story telling really works for the series for that reason, it sets up a meta-game that lasts long after you've seen the last cinematic. That really cements what is the central theme of each game's story: that you are an interloper who has come to a dead / dying / decayed civilization, and been forced to make some sort of sense out of it to survive.
posted by codacorolla at 11:25 AM on March 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Bloodborne is my favorite of the series, for sure. The quick movement, ability to trade hits to restore health, the role that firearms and arcane play as supplementary ranged damage, the world, the story, and streamlining of the stat system, the lack of random drops, the one direction upgrade, the ability to side-grade with gems... I could go on. It really does feel like the best use of the souls format yet. From what I've seen of DS3 it seems like they're going back to the more dungeon-crawly things of DeS, DaS and DS2 (equip load, random drops, direct damage magic across several schools, multiple upgrade paths), instead of BB's stripped down, arcadey feel. I'm fine with that, even if I think I prefer the latter.
RE: The story, I like the take on it that you are doing archcaeology when you're figuring out the story. Essentially, what has happened is contained in fragments that are only partially available to you: what people think (NPC dialogue), epic history (intro cinematics), what you see (architecture and enemy placement), and fragmentary histories (item descriptions). Delving into any of that is strictly optional. You can play the whole thing and figure out as much story as Mario has (you're good, this thing is evil, kill this thing), or you can dive into the data the game gives you to piece it all together. Even though some interpretation is necessary, it's pretty clear that there is actually a story there that has been broken up into pieces for you to find - as someone said up-thread, it's the subtractive mode of storytelling.
For that reason, my favorite lore video person is Jerks Sans Frontieres, who focuses on BB, and approaches the game like a historian or archaeologist might approach a lost civilization. His video analyses have shown me things I never would've seen on my own. For example, the gross slug things in Nightmare Frontier - did you know that they have pitch-black shadow messengers on their undersides? As far through as my third playthrough, I certainly never did. The archaeological perspective to story telling really works for the series for that reason, it sets up a meta-game that lasts long after you've seen the last cinematic. That really cements what is the central theme of each game's story: that you are an interloper who has come to a dead / dying / decayed civilization, and been forced to make some sort of sense out of it to survive.
posted by codacorolla at 11:25 AM on March 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you're grinding for anything in these games - souls, humanity, etc. - and finding it necessary and tedious rather than something you really want to do, you're probably not playing right, IMO. Scarcity is an intentional element emerging from the carefully balanced systems of the game. Humanity is scarce on purpose. You never have enough souls to do what you want with your character or buy the items you want. Part of the fun is figuring out what to do with that scarcity. This is compounded by the risk-reward choices you're constantly making as a result. The entire game is built around these considerations.
posted by naju at 11:29 AM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 11:29 AM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
In other words, ideally you should be daring yourself to constantly progress, stopping just before certain death to level up and buy necessary items. And you should be feeling a constant sense of danger. (And if you do die, recovering that huge, valuable stash of souls ends up being some of the most engaging parts of the gameplay.)
posted by naju at 11:32 AM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 11:32 AM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah. One of the main epiphanies of the series is realising that progress is happening in your muscle memory, not on your character sheet.
posted by codacorolla at 11:35 AM on March 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 11:35 AM on March 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
OnSecondThought, I think the explicit hub and spoke model in Demon's Souls is pretty fundamentally different to Dark Souls II's continuous world, which happens to have warping. Personally I prefer the Demon's Souls model to the two Dark Souls games (haven't played Bloodborne yet), but I'd rather the designers picked one or the other, and made warping something to work towards if there is a full map.
Also, the most grinding I did in a Souls game was in the Shrine of Storms, trying to get that flipping Pure Bladestone. I could probably do the run from the archstone to that black skeleton in the hidden passage blindfolded by now. (Platinum trophies aren't worth it, was the lesson I learned from the hours it took me to finally get that stone.)
posted by smcg at 11:42 AM on March 21, 2016
Also, the most grinding I did in a Souls game was in the Shrine of Storms, trying to get that flipping Pure Bladestone. I could probably do the run from the archstone to that black skeleton in the hidden passage blindfolded by now. (Platinum trophies aren't worth it, was the lesson I learned from the hours it took me to finally get that stone.)
posted by smcg at 11:42 AM on March 21, 2016
Wait. I see very little pizza, and no Louie Anderson. Needs more Arby's Witch.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:22 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 12:22 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just started playing Dark Souls last week. I'm hooked.
posted by hoodrich at 12:25 PM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hoodrich at 12:25 PM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dark souls 2 starts out with hobgoblin woods right after Mandula. Ok, so they're supposed to be theives, but with the friendly forest and the warm sun in the sky, I was getting a very Zelda feel and they immediately became hobgoblins in my mind. Heck, in the Scholar os Sin addition, there's even a friendly circus elephant. Which isn't necessarily Zelda, but it seems very "Adventure" vs. "Dead World." Again, I've only played enough to collect two Large Souls, but even the "dark" settings; the castle area of the Last Sinner and Gargoyles; the Grave of Saints. They all just seem bright and inviting to me, compared to DaS.
I had very mixed feelings about not having to "earn" warping in DS2. On the one hand yeah, it saves a lot of time, but after DaS it felt cheap. But as pointed out above; DaS is the odd one out making you spend a lot of time running zone to zone. I'll try to keep that emotionally in mind.
posted by nobeagle at 12:45 PM on March 21, 2016
I had very mixed feelings about not having to "earn" warping in DS2. On the one hand yeah, it saves a lot of time, but after DaS it felt cheap. But as pointed out above; DaS is the odd one out making you spend a lot of time running zone to zone. I'll try to keep that emotionally in mind.
posted by nobeagle at 12:45 PM on March 21, 2016
Naju, I think that model only works (in Dark Souls 1) if you pick a single weapon and armor and playstyle and stick with it. If you decide halfway through the game that you'd like to really experiment with several different types of weapons and/or armor weights, you're gonna have to do a lot of grinding to level your alternate weapons up to the point where they're not pointlessly underpowered compared with your main weapons.
posted by straight at 12:58 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 12:58 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Eh, not really IMO. In DS1 the major upgrade materials unlock about 1/4 and 1/2 through the game. One gets a weapon to +5 and the other to +9. But just from found titanite you're probably going to be around +6 or +7 1/4 way through, +8 or +9 1/2 way through. So if you switch and need a vendor for upgrades you're really only ever 1 or 2 levels behind optimum - which isn't much. That's maybe 5 or 6 extra hits on a boss. Demon's though... God help you if you miss a single lizard.
posted by codacorolla at 1:07 PM on March 21, 2016
posted by codacorolla at 1:07 PM on March 21, 2016
> Once I discovered this, it nearly broke DS2 for me. If anyone has yet to play through DS2, I recommend avoiding that ring entirely.
It already was broken enough in DS1, 2 just made it pathetically easy to never lose souls. Bloodborne fixed it, not only there's no mechanical equivalent to that ring (that I know of) but most times it even forces you to kill at least 1 enemy for your souls.
Also fixed in BB: weapon upgrading. Same material for everything, add blood gems for special properties, remove/replace them whenever needed with no penalty.
posted by Bangaioh at 2:28 PM on March 21, 2016
It already was broken enough in DS1, 2 just made it pathetically easy to never lose souls. Bloodborne fixed it, not only there's no mechanical equivalent to that ring (that I know of) but most times it even forces you to kill at least 1 enemy for your souls.
Also fixed in BB: weapon upgrading. Same material for everything, add blood gems for special properties, remove/replace them whenever needed with no penalty.
posted by Bangaioh at 2:28 PM on March 21, 2016
The archaeological perspective to story telling really works for the series for that reason, it sets up a meta-game that lasts long after you've seen the last cinematic. That really cements what is the central theme of each game's story: that you are an interloper who has come to a dead / dying / decayed civilization, and been forced to make some sort of sense out of it to survive.
What if this is the nightmarish hell that Indiana Jones has been sent to as a result of all of his archaeological looting. It's his own purgatory of exploration and archaeology. Try to get past the demon guarding the sword, just try and steal these artifacts now, you Coronado plundering mother-fucker!!
posted by Fizz at 3:26 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
What if this is the nightmarish hell that Indiana Jones has been sent to as a result of all of his archaeological looting. It's his own purgatory of exploration and archaeology. Try to get past the demon guarding the sword, just try and steal these artifacts now, you Coronado plundering mother-fucker!!
posted by Fizz at 3:26 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
IMO, Bloodborne's use of a single upgrade material is the worst part of its upgrade system. The last time I played Dark Souls, I had a Lightning Balder Side Sword and a Divine Claymore and a Fire Long Bow and Quelaag's Furysword, and their high-end upgrade materials weren't in competition because Titanite and Demon Titanite and White Titanite and Red Titanite aren't the same thing. In Bloodborne when I got sick of my Ludwig's Holy Blade +9, all I could do was grind if I wanted a comparably strong weapon. Bloodborne remains the only one of the four I couldn't be bothered to beat, because I felt I'd backed myself into a corner w/r/t play style that I didn't actually like, and didn't think it was worth grinding my way out of.
In a sense I respect BB more for not letting me use bows, Iron Flesh, etc. to get around challenges rather than muscle through them. But I probably wouldn't buy a BB2.
posted by OnSecondThought at 4:36 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
In a sense I respect BB more for not letting me use bows, Iron Flesh, etc. to get around challenges rather than muscle through them. But I probably wouldn't buy a BB2.
posted by OnSecondThought at 4:36 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
IMO, Bloodborne's use of a single upgrade material is the worst part of its upgrade system. The last time I played Dark Souls, I had a Lightning Balder Side Sword and a Divine Claymore and a Fire Long Bow and Quelaag's Furysword, and their high-end upgrade materials weren't in competition because Titanite and Demon Titanite and White Titanite and Red Titanite aren't the same thing. In Bloodborne when I got sick of my Ludwig's Holy Blade +9, all I could do was grind if I wanted a comparably strong weapon. Bloodborne remains the only one of the four I couldn't be bothered to beat, because I felt I'd backed myself into a corner w/r/t play style that I didn't actually like, and didn't think it was worth grinding my way out of.
Yeah, that's a legitimate concern. Although patches (heh) did take care of it somewhat. With the DLC and a minimal investment into chalices you easily have enough chunks (without grinding, just through discovery) to get like... 4ish weapons to +9. You then have at least two guaranteed blood rocks, and can easily find another 2 if you want.
Apart from that, they added chunks as a purchasable item at the Insight messengers, at 20 insight a piece. For reference, doing a random chalice guarantees you at least 3 insight (maybe more if you come across a Madman's Knowledge, or a boss that gives additional insight). Co-oping at a popular boss (Shadows, for example) can easily net you 5 insight in about an hour of play, probably even more. If you've been saving knowledges throughout the game you could easily eat them all at once, and get enough for like 4 chunks alone.
So if you haven't played since launch, I'd recommend you give it another whirl. The DLC is absolutely amazing, and adds so, so much to the game. Including, ironically, ranged options that can definitely trivialize a few bosses if you spec into them.
posted by codacorolla at 4:58 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's a legitimate concern. Although patches (heh) did take care of it somewhat. With the DLC and a minimal investment into chalices you easily have enough chunks (without grinding, just through discovery) to get like... 4ish weapons to +9. You then have at least two guaranteed blood rocks, and can easily find another 2 if you want.
Apart from that, they added chunks as a purchasable item at the Insight messengers, at 20 insight a piece. For reference, doing a random chalice guarantees you at least 3 insight (maybe more if you come across a Madman's Knowledge, or a boss that gives additional insight). Co-oping at a popular boss (Shadows, for example) can easily net you 5 insight in about an hour of play, probably even more. If you've been saving knowledges throughout the game you could easily eat them all at once, and get enough for like 4 chunks alone.
So if you haven't played since launch, I'd recommend you give it another whirl. The DLC is absolutely amazing, and adds so, so much to the game. Including, ironically, ranged options that can definitely trivialize a few bosses if you spec into them.
posted by codacorolla at 4:58 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Actually, on retrospect, chalice bosses give 1 for discovery and 2 for victory, so you're actually getting 9 insight per chalice. That's really good, especially since you can blast through a random one in about 15 minutes or so.
posted by codacorolla at 5:03 PM on March 21, 2016
posted by codacorolla at 5:03 PM on March 21, 2016
I haven't even beaten Artorias in the first one, and BARELY started the second one. Sheesh. Let alone gotten a PS4 for bloodborne.
posted by lkc at 6:09 PM on March 21, 2016
posted by lkc at 6:09 PM on March 21, 2016
Heck, in the Scholar os Sin addition, there's even a friendly circus elephant. Which isn't necessarily Zelda, but it seems very "Adventure" vs. "Dead World."
Is this real? I tried googling and nothing turned up.
posted by naju at 6:50 PM on March 21, 2016
Is this real? I tried googling and nothing turned up.
posted by naju at 6:50 PM on March 21, 2016
My understanding (though I'm trying to remain as unspoiled as possible on the SotFS changes) is that the added NPC is a bit... misshapen. I assume that's what's being referred to.
posted by rifflesby at 7:06 PM on March 21, 2016
posted by rifflesby at 7:06 PM on March 21, 2016
I think nobeagle was referring to the ogre added right at the beginning of the Forest of Fallen Giants.
posted by painquale at 7:51 PM on March 21, 2016
posted by painquale at 7:51 PM on March 21, 2016
Maybe? The hippogres already existed in the original version, though, they aren't new for Scholar.
posted by rifflesby at 7:53 PM on March 21, 2016
posted by rifflesby at 7:53 PM on March 21, 2016
True, but nobeagle brought up the addition of the circus elephant in saying that his first impression on entering the Forest was that it was a place full of bright Zeldaesque adventure. The ogre in the stream isn't a new type of enemy in the game, but he does make the Forest feel more Zelda.
Plus, he looks like a circus elephant!
posted by painquale at 7:58 PM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Plus, he looks like a circus elephant!
posted by painquale at 7:58 PM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Neronomius: "If you have six hours I would recommend mathewmattosis on Dark Souls. Yes, it's six hours, but it's worth it."
Holy moly. This is fantastic. I've never played Dark Souls (I'm bad at this sort of game, and I lack the patience), but I love these sorts of walkthroughs/critiques. And this guy's good. Thanks for posting that.
posted by barnacles at 8:00 PM on March 21, 2016
Holy moly. This is fantastic. I've never played Dark Souls (I'm bad at this sort of game, and I lack the patience), but I love these sorts of walkthroughs/critiques. And this guy's good. Thanks for posting that.
posted by barnacles at 8:00 PM on March 21, 2016
codacorolla: "For that reason, my favorite lore video person is Jerks Sans Frontieres, who focuses on BB, and approaches the game like a historian or archaeologist might approach a lost civilization."
Gasp. I need to watch this person.
posted by barnacles at 8:04 PM on March 21, 2016
Gasp. I need to watch this person.
posted by barnacles at 8:04 PM on March 21, 2016
Yeah, do! He posted nearly an hour of video about Oedon just the other day, it was extremely enlightening.
posted by rifflesby at 8:14 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rifflesby at 8:14 PM on March 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, I meant the Ogre - sure, there's no trunk, but its got a nice gray color and with those cute giant elephant feet I'm willing to overlook the lack of trunk. I guess maybe it looks more like a hippo, but I've never seen a circus hippo. Regardless, it doesn't look like anything from DaS.
In DS2 as released, there was an ogre near the crones, but not in the theive'sforest (Or, the entrance to the Forest of Fallen Giants). In the Master of Sin addition, I remember my very first surprise was the giant elephant (ogre) just after I came out of the tunnel leading to this area.
On the note of odd naming schemes, my kids, call the hollows in the undead burg "potatoes." I guess because their scraps of clothes seem somewhat burlap sack-like.
I really need to make more progress with Bloodborne. I think I know what I'm doing this Friday.
I guess it might be worth looking to see there's an easy can clean way to handle routing/switching of hdmi - In theory as we've got a PS{3,4} and xbox360 in the family room, with some monitors we could get a bit better use of the systems. It's kind of fun watching when the older kid brings his 360 and a monitor down, and will play DaS or DS2 with his brother on the family 360. Ms. nobeagle might kill me however...
posted by nobeagle at 8:13 AM on March 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
In DS2 as released, there was an ogre near the crones, but not in the theive'sforest (Or, the entrance to the Forest of Fallen Giants). In the Master of Sin addition, I remember my very first surprise was the giant elephant (ogre) just after I came out of the tunnel leading to this area.
On the note of odd naming schemes, my kids, call the hollows in the undead burg "potatoes." I guess because their scraps of clothes seem somewhat burlap sack-like.
I really need to make more progress with Bloodborne. I think I know what I'm doing this Friday.
I guess it might be worth looking to see there's an easy can clean way to handle routing/switching of hdmi - In theory as we've got a PS{3,4} and xbox360 in the family room, with some monitors we could get a bit better use of the systems. It's kind of fun watching when the older kid brings his 360 and a monitor down, and will play DaS or DS2 with his brother on the family 360. Ms. nobeagle might kill me however...
posted by nobeagle at 8:13 AM on March 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm avoiding this, and haven't even read the discussion, because I'm on total media blackout for this game. But I was discussing this and my frustration with the emphasis on Dark Souls as a hard game, and I came up with a way to articulate that which I liked, which I thought I would paste in here in the hopes that it might persuade anyone talked out of the series into giving it another chance. Sorry to comment and run, bad form I know.
"Dark Souls for me is a game about interesting choices about what to do. You’re somewhere you’ve never been and you see something you’ve never seen before and like %90 of the fun of the game comes from trying to figure that out - “Should I approach this enemy? Should I fire something at him? Should I give him a wide berth? I’m carrying a lot of souls - maybe I should go back to the bonfire so I don’t lose them. On the other hand, I’ve never been this far before - what if the next bonfire is just past this guy?” And that’s kind of at odds with traditional games where you’re never not supposed to go forward, never not supposed to just charge at every enemy you see, and we expect that there won’t be anything in a given level that we’re not ready to engage with yet. The problem with the stupid emphasis on the “hard” reputation is that it _reinforces_ peoples’ beliefs when they get killed by that enemy that they didn’t do the _wrong_ thing, but that they just were bullied by a really “hard” game, and they never get to see that part of the game that I really enjoy."
posted by neuromodulator at 10:26 AM on March 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Dark Souls for me is a game about interesting choices about what to do. You’re somewhere you’ve never been and you see something you’ve never seen before and like %90 of the fun of the game comes from trying to figure that out - “Should I approach this enemy? Should I fire something at him? Should I give him a wide berth? I’m carrying a lot of souls - maybe I should go back to the bonfire so I don’t lose them. On the other hand, I’ve never been this far before - what if the next bonfire is just past this guy?” And that’s kind of at odds with traditional games where you’re never not supposed to go forward, never not supposed to just charge at every enemy you see, and we expect that there won’t be anything in a given level that we’re not ready to engage with yet. The problem with the stupid emphasis on the “hard” reputation is that it _reinforces_ peoples’ beliefs when they get killed by that enemy that they didn’t do the _wrong_ thing, but that they just were bullied by a really “hard” game, and they never get to see that part of the game that I really enjoy."
posted by neuromodulator at 10:26 AM on March 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I understand why Namco approached the Dark Souls marketing that way, but I'm glad the Demon's Souls word of mouth wasn't so one note, and talked more about atmosphere and level design and the weird bloodstain and PVP mechanics. Fear, tension, triumph, and paranoia, not difficulty. Dark Souls' marketing might have put me off, had I not played Demon's.
posted by OnSecondThought at 11:51 AM on March 22, 2016
posted by OnSecondThought at 11:51 AM on March 22, 2016
. The problem with the stupid emphasis on the “hard” reputation is that it _reinforces_ peoples’ beliefs when they get killed by that enemy that they didn’t do the _wrong_ thing, but that they just were bullied by a really “hard” game, and they never get to see that part of the game that I really enjoy."
One reason I keep playing Dark Souls II and keep on dying over and over again is that I'm always entertained by my deaths. There's always something new to learn about the way I died. I rarely blame the demon that killed me, because the demon almost always has a rule it follow, a method to its madness. It's my job as knight or cleric or whatever to figure it out, to find out the best way to defeat that thing. Very well said, Neuromodulator.
posted by Fizz at 3:03 PM on March 22, 2016
One reason I keep playing Dark Souls II and keep on dying over and over again is that I'm always entertained by my deaths. There's always something new to learn about the way I died. I rarely blame the demon that killed me, because the demon almost always has a rule it follow, a method to its madness. It's my job as knight or cleric or whatever to figure it out, to find out the best way to defeat that thing. Very well said, Neuromodulator.
posted by Fizz at 3:03 PM on March 22, 2016
Regardless, it doesn't look like anything from DaS.
The big mushroom people in The Great Hollow are not too far off. They're also fat and goofy and whimsical. More Marioish than Zeldaesque though.
(I really like, as was pointed out on the Bonfireside Chat podcast, that the goal of the Dark Souls DLC is to rescue the princess of a mushroom kingdom.)
posted by painquale at 3:11 PM on March 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
The big mushroom people in The Great Hollow are not too far off. They're also fat and goofy and whimsical. More Marioish than Zeldaesque though.
(I really like, as was pointed out on the Bonfireside Chat podcast, that the goal of the Dark Souls DLC is to rescue the princess of a mushroom kingdom.)
posted by painquale at 3:11 PM on March 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
As a public service announcement, the Japanese release trailer has some fairly major spoilers in it. Definitely more reveals than I was expecting from a trailer.
posted by codacorolla at 6:29 AM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 6:29 AM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
My daughter rolled her eyes at the news that there is a new Dark Souls game launching soon, and said something along the lines of " so does this mean you will stop playing all the other ones finally?"
No sweetheart, no; it doesn't.
I remember the feeling when I first ran into one of the Black Knights in DkS1, and , in the vernacular, being REKT. Over and over. I distinctly remember feeling that they must be some sort of mechanism to keep low-level characters out of other areas, and feeling that it was an interesting choice to put in an impassable enemy rather than a door or gate you couldn't unlock.
Fast forward to the point where I am starting new games , and running to the Halberd-wielding DK in darkroot basin to try to get him to drop the halberd, so I can do a whole run with it. Don't even bother to level up, just run through.
Parry/backstab fish, over and over with the bandit knife, to kill the BK. He doesn't drop the halberd.
No biggie, quit game, start new. It only took 10 minutes to get there.
Once he drops it, level up, rest at a bonfire, and go get that ring from Havel.
:)
The point being, with a few downright unfair exceptions (i'm looking at you Loran darkbeast camera) , everything in the souls series has an observable method for beating it, and at pretty much any level (onebros! ).
And while I have done all of the challenge runs , in all of them, that I want to......I still go back and just do a play through of DkS1 sometimes, because i miss the environment, the story , everything.
I can't wait to experience a new blind play through in the series. And then finding all of the hidden locations, characters, rewards.
And then finding new ways to min/max :)
posted by das_2099 at 9:49 AM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
No sweetheart, no; it doesn't.
I remember the feeling when I first ran into one of the Black Knights in DkS1, and , in the vernacular, being REKT. Over and over. I distinctly remember feeling that they must be some sort of mechanism to keep low-level characters out of other areas, and feeling that it was an interesting choice to put in an impassable enemy rather than a door or gate you couldn't unlock.
Fast forward to the point where I am starting new games , and running to the Halberd-wielding DK in darkroot basin to try to get him to drop the halberd, so I can do a whole run with it. Don't even bother to level up, just run through.
Parry/backstab fish, over and over with the bandit knife, to kill the BK. He doesn't drop the halberd.
No biggie, quit game, start new. It only took 10 minutes to get there.
Once he drops it, level up, rest at a bonfire, and go get that ring from Havel.
:)
The point being, with a few downright unfair exceptions (i'm looking at you Loran darkbeast camera) , everything in the souls series has an observable method for beating it, and at pretty much any level (onebros! ).
And while I have done all of the challenge runs , in all of them, that I want to......I still go back and just do a play through of DkS1 sometimes, because i miss the environment, the story , everything.
I can't wait to experience a new blind play through in the series. And then finding all of the hidden locations, characters, rewards.
And then finding new ways to min/max :)
posted by das_2099 at 9:49 AM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Clearly the only reasonable conclusion to draw when my opinion and all of yours differ is that you're all misguided.
Maybe I'll try using a weapon BESIDES "large club" this time. But I love me large club and fatrolling.
posted by Justinian at 11:33 AM on March 23, 2016
Maybe I'll try using a weapon BESIDES "large club" this time. But I love me large club and fatrolling.
posted by Justinian at 11:33 AM on March 23, 2016
Oh lord. As challenge runs go, fatrolling is a bigger handicap than staying at level 1.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:37 AM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:37 AM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Can't agree enough with the above, my biggest newbie mistake was assuming classes were something other than merely different allocations of stats and unless I started a new character of some other class I'd be fated to play the whole game while fat-rolling because that's just what knights do.
posted by Bangaioh at 11:51 AM on March 23, 2016
posted by Bangaioh at 11:51 AM on March 23, 2016
"Oh lord. As challenge runs go, fatrolling is a bigger handicap than staying at level 1."
--> Holy crap. I have never even considered a fatrolling challenge run. I have done a no pyromancy SL1 run through to NG+ ( I think i abandoned the NG+ run on four kings. ) ..... and fatrolling would be MUCH harder.
I can barely stand MEDIUM rolling.
posted by das_2099 at 12:18 PM on March 23, 2016
--> Holy crap. I have never even considered a fatrolling challenge run. I have done a no pyromancy SL1 run through to NG+ ( I think i abandoned the NG+ run on four kings. ) ..... and fatrolling would be MUCH harder.
I can barely stand MEDIUM rolling.
posted by das_2099 at 12:18 PM on March 23, 2016
Yeah, the fact that equip-load is making a comeback isn't great. At least now there're only really two roll speeds, so with a little bit of extra levels you can play dress-up as much as you like.
posted by codacorolla at 1:04 PM on March 23, 2016
posted by codacorolla at 1:04 PM on March 23, 2016
But... the fatroll animation is so hilarious. How can you not love it?
posted by Justinian at 1:42 PM on March 23, 2016
posted by Justinian at 1:42 PM on March 23, 2016
Because armor is largely meaningless in these games compared to dodging, aside from occasionally hitting a resistance you need (like loading up on curse res. for Seath). Bloodborne treats it as such, and is much better for it. Really, armor is just a cosmetic choice to make your guy look cool. *Souls is obviously much more a dungeon crawler, so they almost have to have equip-load, but I really don't think it adds anything, and usually just means I can't make my guy look as cool as possible.
posted by codacorolla at 1:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 1:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ehhh, I personally don't care for how Bloodborne did away with much of the complexity around these systems, including weapon/armor loadouts. Weight is tied to both armor AND weapon, IIRC, so you have to make some tough decisions when you prepare for a particular boss battle. Heavy armor/weapons and fatrolling is for masochists, yes, but if you want a real bruiser of a weapon, and you don't want to be literally naked, you might have to deal with that. Or put more points into equipment load when you level up. I personally found a sweet spot for medium rolling, good armor, and my weapon of choice. Others would find medium rolling to be too slow, but i incorporated it into my play style and did well. For some bosses I dual-wielded a really heavy sword and dealt with fatrolling, and it was the only way I could proceed. I really don't think armor was merely cosmetic, either. It saved my hide regularly.
Bloodborne encouraged one way of playing - a fast melee fighter, basically - and it ended up cutting out a lot of the ways people could create their own playstyles to go through the game. I welcome a return to complexity, if that's what DS3 is going with.
posted by naju at 6:10 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bloodborne encouraged one way of playing - a fast melee fighter, basically - and it ended up cutting out a lot of the ways people could create their own playstyles to go through the game. I welcome a return to complexity, if that's what DS3 is going with.
posted by naju at 6:10 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The tears are flowing out there among the kiddies mad about the staggered release. It's ugly.
posted by Justinian at 6:39 PM on March 23, 2016
posted by Justinian at 6:39 PM on March 23, 2016
Here's a weird bit of marketing. From Software hired Eli Roth to direct an animated short for use as a DS3 trailer.
posted by painquale at 12:59 AM on March 31, 2016
posted by painquale at 12:59 AM on March 31, 2016
That Eli Roth trailer isn't so good. However, this Bamco throwback 80s exploitation film trailer is:
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/256662354/movie480.webm?t=1459371622
posted by codacorolla at 6:50 AM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/256662354/movie480.webm?t=1459371622
posted by codacorolla at 6:50 AM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's nearly here! This gameplay footage really has me excited! (No spoilers.)
posted by painquale at 6:20 PM on April 5, 2016
posted by painquale at 6:20 PM on April 5, 2016
« Older One Weird Trick for Keeping Female Employees From... | A classic matchup Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Fizz at 6:31 PM on March 20, 2016