"A Discrimination Omnibus" in NC: LGBT rights, bathrooms, and more!
March 23, 2016 12:43 PM Subscribe
The North Carolina General Assembly held a special session today to limit the power of municipalities. House Bill 2 would eliminate every non-discrimination ordinance in North Carolina, including a recent decision in Charlotte to uphold individuals' freedom to use public restrooms according to their gender identity.
HB 2 passed 83-25 in the North Carolina House of Representatives. Proponents of HB 2 cite public safety concerns and fears of male predators lurking in women's restrooms--even though this threat has been investigated in other states and found to be virtually nonexistent.
Another liveblog of the session.
HB 2 passed 83-25 in the North Carolina House of Representatives. Proponents of HB 2 cite public safety concerns and fears of male predators lurking in women's restrooms--even though this threat has been investigated in other states and found to be virtually nonexistent.
Another liveblog of the session.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- Brandon Blatcher
Gooberment...
posted by jim in austin at 12:52 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jim in austin at 12:52 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Our local state senator Jeff Jackson is the only thing keeping me sane today
posted by Sweetie Darling at 12:56 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Sweetie Darling at 12:56 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Same thing happened in Texas when a city voted to ban fracking.
It's nice that Republicans have stopped pretending that "states' rights" means anything other than the rights of the states, as opposed to the people in them.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:57 PM on March 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
It's nice that Republicans have stopped pretending that "states' rights" means anything other than the rights of the states, as opposed to the people in them.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:57 PM on March 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
Zack Ford: North Carolina Lawmakers Waste Taxpayer Money To Gut LGBT Protections
After Charlotte passed its LGBT protections ordinance last month, Gov. Pat McCrory (R) warned that the protections for the transgender community will “create major public safety issues by putting citizens in possible danger from deviant actions by individuals taking improper advantage of a bad policy.” He promised state action to overturn any such provision.posted by zombieflanders at 12:58 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Rep. Jon Hardister (R) insisted that the special session was “the right thing to do” because “this is an issue that relates to public safety. I believe in local control, but there are some laws that need to be uniform across the state, especially when it comes to protecting our citizens.”
Though conservatives have praised the legislature’s response, it flies in the face of what North Carolina voters actually want. A poll this week found that only 25 percent of North Carolina voters actually support the General Assembly overriding Charlotte’s law.
In fact, there is bipartisan consensus that lawmakers should leave Charlotte’s ordinance alone. Across the state, 51 percent believe it should remain unchanged, including among Democrats (58-17), independents (48-21), and even Republicans (45-38). In fact, 64 percent of North Carolinians actually support statewide LGBT nondiscrimination protections.
And meanwhile in Kansas, one of those rare cases where the headline is actually how vile the legislation is: Kansas Bill Would Pay Students A $2,500 Bounty To Hunt For Trans People In Bathrooms
posted by zombieflanders at 1:02 PM on March 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
If transgender students request accommodations, they can only be provided “access to single-stall bathrooms; access to unisex bathrooms; or controlled use of faculty bathrooms, locker rooms or shower rooms.” As experts pointed out when a similar provision was included in South Dakota’s bill, this would out, segregate, and ostracize transgender students who might already be vulnerable to bullying.It's not only a direct attack on transgender students, but on the entire public schooling and university system of Kansas who don't want to be party to such blatant discrimination.
But transgender students are apparently such a threat to their peers that these lawmakers believe anyone who has to be in a restroom for them should have grounds for a suit. If a student encounters someone “of the opposite sex,” they have a private cause of action against the school. The aggrieved student is entitled to $2,500 for every time they saw someone transgender in the restroom, plus “monetary damages for all psychological, emotional and physical harm suffered as a result of a violation of this section.”
This particular provision would open a significant liability to many of the state’s universities. Schools like the University of Kansas, Kansas State of University, Washburn University, and several community colleges have policies on the books protecting against discrimination based on gender identity. Any transgender students currently depending on those protections would immediately open the school to lawsuits from their classmates.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:02 PM on March 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
How is this not in violation of Romer v Evans? It seems to me that it is, but IANAL.
posted by rtha at 1:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rtha at 1:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here is a giant list of states that are currently trying to legislate discrimination.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I were the mayor of Charlotte, I'd be very tempted to simply tell the legislature to go fuck itself (in much more politic language, of course) and act as if no bill had been passed. Enforce the anti-discrimination ordinance and simply dare the Governor to do something about it.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 1:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Dow opposes #NCGA attempt to undermine equality in Charlotte. Let's focus on policies that make #NC stronger and more competitive. - KK
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:14 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:14 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
rtha, I wanted to ask that exact question. If Romer v. Evans struck down an amendment to the Colorado constitution forbidding protected status based on sexual orientation, then how is what's happening here any different? Is this the NC GOP essentially throwing a tantrum despite knowing that it won't stand up on appeal?
posted by imnotasquirrel at 1:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by imnotasquirrel at 1:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Dow opposes #NCGA attempt to undermine equality in Charlotte. Let's focus on policies that make #NC stronger and more competitive. - KK
Related: Disney, Marvel to Boycott Georgia if Religious Liberty Bill Is Passed
Related: Disney, Marvel to Boycott Georgia if Religious Liberty Bill Is Passed
The Walt Disney Co. and Marvel Studios indicated opposition to a Georgia religious liberty bill pending before Gov. Nathan Deal, saying that they will take their business elsewhere “should any legislation allowing discriminatory practices be signed into state law.”NFL Wants to Sack Anti-Gay Bill in Georgia
With generous tax incentives, Georgia has become a production hub, with Marvel currently shooting “Guardians of the Galaxy 2” at Pinewood Studios outside Atlanta. “Captain America: Civil War” shot there last summer.
“Disney and Marvel are inclusive companies, and although we have had great experiences filming in Georgia, we will plan to take our business elsewhere should any legislation allowing discriminatory practices be signed into state law,” a Disney spokesman said on Wednesday.
“The Georgia legislature took a bad bill and made it worse.” Lorenz said. “This is a bill that has all kinds of avenues for harm and discrimination for Georgians.”posted by zombieflanders at 1:22 PM on March 23, 2016 [24 favorites]
Along with LGBT advocates, major players in Georgia’s business community have ripped the legislation.
Coca-Cola, Home Depot, and Delta Airlines oppose it. Michael Dell, Richard Branson, and Jack Dorsey have all spoken out against it. SalesForce CEO Mark Benioff, who has 16,000 employees in Georgia, has warned he’ll pull as much of his business as possible out of the state, tweeting last week:
“Once again Georgia is trying to pass laws that make it legal to discriminate. When will this insanity end?”
But in a state where football is practiced like a religion, it has been the loud and unanimous objections of the sports community that has raised the greatest doubts about whether Gov. Nathan Deal will sign the bill.
In addition to the Atlanta Hawks and Atlanta Braves, who called the bill “detrimental to our community and bad for Georgia,” Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank warned the bill would have a “long-lasting negative impact on our state and the people of Georgia.”
> amendment to the Colorado constitution... how is what's happening here any different?
States have Rights; municipalities don't.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:23 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
States have Rights; municipalities don't.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 1:23 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh wow, this is gross and horrible. Love, hugs, and support to any MeFites (or others) affected by this geographically or emotionally. Yuck yuck yuck. Ew. Yuck.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:28 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:28 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
How common is it for transgender individuals to use a restroom that does not match their gender presentation?
The concern trolling seems incredibly misplaced, because the scenarios envisioned don't even seem like they would be plausible (and one would presumably want to raise an eyebrow at anybody who is "lurking" in a restroom, regardless of the gender of the person or restroom).
Apologies if any of this was not the preferred nomenclature. Please correct me if this query is out of line.
posted by schmod at 1:33 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The concern trolling seems incredibly misplaced, because the scenarios envisioned don't even seem like they would be plausible (and one would presumably want to raise an eyebrow at anybody who is "lurking" in a restroom, regardless of the gender of the person or restroom).
Apologies if any of this was not the preferred nomenclature. Please correct me if this query is out of line.
posted by schmod at 1:33 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
States have Rights; municipalities don't.
Sorry, could you elaborate? I'm probably parsing your sentence incorrectly, but Colorado's Amendment 2 affected municipalities too. Granted, the amendment wasn't overturned on the premise that Colorado wasn't allowed to violate municipality "rights", but it seems like Romer v. Evans' majority opinion - that Amendment 2 was driven by animus and lacked any sort of rational relation to a legitimate state interest - could easily apply here.
You can tell that IANAL...
posted by imnotasquirrel at 1:37 PM on March 23, 2016
Sorry, could you elaborate? I'm probably parsing your sentence incorrectly, but Colorado's Amendment 2 affected municipalities too. Granted, the amendment wasn't overturned on the premise that Colorado wasn't allowed to violate municipality "rights", but it seems like Romer v. Evans' majority opinion - that Amendment 2 was driven by animus and lacked any sort of rational relation to a legitimate state interest - could easily apply here.
You can tell that IANAL...
posted by imnotasquirrel at 1:37 PM on March 23, 2016
How common is it for transgender individuals to use a restroom that does not match their gender presentation?
I think that varies wildly based on gender presentation and comfort level.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think that varies wildly based on gender presentation and comfort level.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
amirite?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 1:50 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Statement on Diversity from Red Hat CEO Jim Whitehurst
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:00 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:00 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe there will be some upside to the whole "Corporations are people now and they control the government" thing. Maybe they will get somewhere with this.
posted by bleep at 2:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 2:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
And meanwhile in Kansas, one of those rare cases where the headline is actually how vile the legislation is
Just to put this in perspective, the legislature is also spending a lot of time finding new ways to cut education funding. Cuts so deep the Wichita School District is considering 4 day a week classes in order to make ends meet, among other drastic measures. And meanwhile these conservative, presumably "constitutional originalist", legislators are trying to pass a law which would allow them to freely impeach and remove any state judge or justice which rules a Kansas law unconstitutional. In other words, they're trying to blatantly kill any judicial independence.
I don't know if this incredibly evil bill regarding transgendered people in the loo will pass. But I can't believe this would even come up and that even one legislator would rather spend 2,500 per witch hunt instead of giving it to schools.
Didn't mean to derail on Kansas. The deranged evil of this legislative season is probably worthy of its own FPP. Just wanted the context of the legislators' bathroom obsessions known.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Just to put this in perspective, the legislature is also spending a lot of time finding new ways to cut education funding. Cuts so deep the Wichita School District is considering 4 day a week classes in order to make ends meet, among other drastic measures. And meanwhile these conservative, presumably "constitutional originalist", legislators are trying to pass a law which would allow them to freely impeach and remove any state judge or justice which rules a Kansas law unconstitutional. In other words, they're trying to blatantly kill any judicial independence.
I don't know if this incredibly evil bill regarding transgendered people in the loo will pass. But I can't believe this would even come up and that even one legislator would rather spend 2,500 per witch hunt instead of giving it to schools.
Didn't mean to derail on Kansas. The deranged evil of this legislative season is probably worthy of its own FPP. Just wanted the context of the legislators' bathroom obsessions known.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Kansas Bill Would Pay Students A $2,500 Bounty To Hunt For Trans People In Bathrooms
Yes that's gross, and been tried in other states. Apparently it's coming from these assholes.
posted by nom de poop at 2:09 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes that's gross, and been tried in other states. Apparently it's coming from these assholes.
posted by nom de poop at 2:09 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jesus f'in Christ. It's even worse than I had thought.
Here's the full text of the bill: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v0.pdf
Besides the bathroom provisions, the North Carolina General Assembly is changing the prohibitions on "discrimination on account of sex" to "discrimination on account of biological sex". One little word. Ouch.
And this gem: "It is the public policy of this State to protect and safeguard the right and opportunity of all individuals within the State to enjoy fully and equally the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of places of public accommodation free of discrimination because of race, religion, color, national origin, or biological sex, provided that designating multiple or single occupancy bathrooms or changing facilities according to biological sex, as 10 defined in G.S. 143-760(a)(1), (3), and (5), shall not be deemed to constitute discrimination."
Thanks for clarifying that, guys. Wow.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 2:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Here's the full text of the bill: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v0.pdf
Besides the bathroom provisions, the North Carolina General Assembly is changing the prohibitions on "discrimination on account of sex" to "discrimination on account of biological sex". One little word. Ouch.
And this gem: "It is the public policy of this State to protect and safeguard the right and opportunity of all individuals within the State to enjoy fully and equally the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of places of public accommodation free of discrimination because of race, religion, color, national origin, or biological sex, provided that designating multiple or single occupancy bathrooms or changing facilities according to biological sex, as 10 defined in G.S. 143-760(a)(1), (3), and (5), shall not be deemed to constitute discrimination."
Thanks for clarifying that, guys. Wow.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 2:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
A similar bill is in the works in Minnesota, I'm not worried that it will become law because the people have elected a sane governor here.
It's just so saddening because so many of the names sponsoring this bill were folks who attempted to push for an anti-gay marriage amendment and were rebuked then. It's so obvious that they are just looking for any outlet through which to push their hate.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's just so saddening because so many of the names sponsoring this bill were folks who attempted to push for an anti-gay marriage amendment and were rebuked then. It's so obvious that they are just looking for any outlet through which to push their hate.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The North Carolina House of Representatives passed the horrible bill 83-24. We lost every Republican and 14 Democrats.
So much for the "New South" being progressive.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 2:44 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
So much for the "New South" being progressive.
posted by QuantumMeruit at 2:44 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
How common is it for transgender individuals to use a restroom that does not match their gender presentation?
Worth knowing: It is not wildly uncommon for trans people to plan their workdays or travel around the location of safe bathrooms. One of my friends used to have to leave her building and go through the skyways to another building and take the elevators there if she wanted a place to pee. This was not because her office lacked bathrooms.
posted by Frowner at 2:45 PM on March 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
For anyone doubting that trans people are harassed in bathrooms, someone once hassled me for my gender presentation while I was trying to use a gender netural bathroom.
posted by hoyland at 2:55 PM on March 23, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by hoyland at 2:55 PM on March 23, 2016 [32 favorites]
How common is it for transgender individuals to use a restroom that does not match their gender presentation?
Not everyone has a clearly binary gender presentation, and usually there are only two options for bathrooms. As I became more masculine-appearing, I got stares and scoffs in the women's room, but I was (at that time) still afraid to use the men's room. Once my name and gender were legally changed to male I felt obligated to use the men's room, which I do. I was scared out of my mind, but nothing has happened aside from a few raised eyebrows, and I don't face the amount of risk that transfeminine people do (in either bathroom).
Anyway, your question is nonsensical for a large chunk of people. I know lots of people with nonbinary gender presentations, or binary people who aren't recognized as the gender they are. Many many people can't take hormones or afford surgery (or don't want them) and thus don't "pass" as either male or female.
posted by desjardins at 3:03 PM on March 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
Not everyone has a clearly binary gender presentation, and usually there are only two options for bathrooms. As I became more masculine-appearing, I got stares and scoffs in the women's room, but I was (at that time) still afraid to use the men's room. Once my name and gender were legally changed to male I felt obligated to use the men's room, which I do. I was scared out of my mind, but nothing has happened aside from a few raised eyebrows, and I don't face the amount of risk that transfeminine people do (in either bathroom).
Anyway, your question is nonsensical for a large chunk of people. I know lots of people with nonbinary gender presentations, or binary people who aren't recognized as the gender they are. Many many people can't take hormones or afford surgery (or don't want them) and thus don't "pass" as either male or female.
posted by desjardins at 3:03 PM on March 23, 2016 [33 favorites]
It is not wildly uncommon for trans people to plan their workdays or travel around the location of safe bathrooms.
I think one thing almost all trans people have in common is we always use the bathroom before we leave the house.
Also, urinary tract infections are quite common because people just hold it rather than use a bathroom.
posted by desjardins at 3:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think one thing almost all trans people have in common is we always use the bathroom before we leave the house.
Also, urinary tract infections are quite common because people just hold it rather than use a bathroom.
posted by desjardins at 3:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
Ugh! This day is crap. I'm going to bed.
posted by Bob Regular at 3:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bob Regular at 3:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm a cis woman who's butch and I have been yelled at when I use public women's rooms, and been subjected to sneering "Are you in the right bathroom?" stuff. If I go to pee in a public restroom in NC, are they going to take a genetic sample before I'm allowed? Make me drop trou?
A genderqueer friend of mine has gotten such horrendous abuse hurled at her by women in public restrooms that she will not go unless accompanied by her girlfriend.
Who is it who needs protection? Yeah.
posted by rtha at 3:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
A genderqueer friend of mine has gotten such horrendous abuse hurled at her by women in public restrooms that she will not go unless accompanied by her girlfriend.
Who is it who needs protection? Yeah.
posted by rtha at 3:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [27 favorites]
Not everyone has a clearly binary gender presentation, and usually there are only two options for bathrooms
Yes, and plenty of cis people also have nonbinary or "opposite gender" presentations without being trans (sometimes because others just perceive their appearance to be of a different or ambiguous nature, and others that intentionally dress in gender-non-conforming ways without being trans).
The laws and panic around the laws will hit trans people the hardest, but the general "gender policing" of bathrooms/etc is an issue that affects many people.
posted by thefoxgod at 3:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yes, and plenty of cis people also have nonbinary or "opposite gender" presentations without being trans (sometimes because others just perceive their appearance to be of a different or ambiguous nature, and others that intentionally dress in gender-non-conforming ways without being trans).
The laws and panic around the laws will hit trans people the hardest, but the general "gender policing" of bathrooms/etc is an issue that affects many people.
posted by thefoxgod at 3:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
So much for the "New South" being progressive.
It's also yet another case of combining poor progressive turnout on non-presidential years with gerrymandering to maintain a stranglehold on elections. I can't find statistics on the NC State House of Representatives right now, but in the congressional election in 2014, Democrat's received 44% of the votes but got 23% of the seats.
posted by Candleman at 3:16 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's also yet another case of combining poor progressive turnout on non-presidential years with gerrymandering to maintain a stranglehold on elections. I can't find statistics on the NC State House of Representatives right now, but in the congressional election in 2014, Democrat's received 44% of the votes but got 23% of the seats.
posted by Candleman at 3:16 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Kansas Bill Would Pay Students A $2,500 Bounty To Hunt For Trans People In Bathrooms
Eh, that's misleading. It provides a private right of action against entities that don't have sexed bathrooms.
That's not to say the law isn't horrible, but the TP summary is flat out wrong. The lawsuit has to be predicated on the school permitting - expressly or constructively - people to use the bathroom of the opposite sex.
As a general rule, ThinkProgress should be considered to be for entertainment purposes only, and shouldn't be relied on for information.
posted by jpe at 3:21 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Eh, that's misleading. It provides a private right of action against entities that don't have sexed bathrooms.
That's not to say the law isn't horrible, but the TP summary is flat out wrong. The lawsuit has to be predicated on the school permitting - expressly or constructively - people to use the bathroom of the opposite sex.
As a general rule, ThinkProgress should be considered to be for entertainment purposes only, and shouldn't be relied on for information.
posted by jpe at 3:21 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
N.C. Senate approves #HB2 against #LGBT ordinances by 32-0 vote after Democrats walk out.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:30 PM on March 23, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:30 PM on March 23, 2016
Indiana passed a similar bill back in the 90s when I was in college, shortly before they passed the first marriage bill (although to their credit, the constitutional amendment went nowhere for 20-odd years.) So did multiple neighboring states in response to municipal laws, resolutions, and policies.
My historical rant: The marriage bans were a bait-and-switch that were never primarily about marriage. They were passed in response to municipalities, private organizations, and courts moving forward on non-discrimination, domestic partner benefits, adoption, custody, and powers-of-attorney. And those bans had legal weasel-language to ensure that municipalities couldn't give insurance to domestic partners or hospitals couldn't respect power-of-attorney because that would be an "equivalent" to marriage.
Now that Obergefell kicked away the state interest in promoting heterosexual marriage as a rationale for discrimination, we have "public safety" and "religious rights" as the legal rationales. So I'm not surprised to see the same shit with a different preamble hit statehouses across the country.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 3:37 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
My historical rant: The marriage bans were a bait-and-switch that were never primarily about marriage. They were passed in response to municipalities, private organizations, and courts moving forward on non-discrimination, domestic partner benefits, adoption, custody, and powers-of-attorney. And those bans had legal weasel-language to ensure that municipalities couldn't give insurance to domestic partners or hospitals couldn't respect power-of-attorney because that would be an "equivalent" to marriage.
Now that Obergefell kicked away the state interest in promoting heterosexual marriage as a rationale for discrimination, we have "public safety" and "religious rights" as the legal rationales. So I'm not surprised to see the same shit with a different preamble hit statehouses across the country.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 3:37 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ugh, fuck these assholes.
This seems to be an increasingly common dynamic: cities pass ordinances to achieve progressive policies that would be stymied at the state level; conservative legislators respond by placing limitations on local governance. After Seattle and two other cities increased the minimum wage last year, Republicans in the state Senate tried to block all local regulation of workplace conditions with what one sponsor called the "Seattle Quarantine" bill. Thankfully, the attempt to pass a transphobic bathroom bill here last month also failed, but I suspect this kind of thing is only going to get worse as long state governments remain disproportionately right-wing.
posted by karayel at 3:37 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
This seems to be an increasingly common dynamic: cities pass ordinances to achieve progressive policies that would be stymied at the state level; conservative legislators respond by placing limitations on local governance. After Seattle and two other cities increased the minimum wage last year, Republicans in the state Senate tried to block all local regulation of workplace conditions with what one sponsor called the "Seattle Quarantine" bill. Thankfully, the attempt to pass a transphobic bathroom bill here last month also failed, but I suspect this kind of thing is only going to get worse as long state governments remain disproportionately right-wing.
posted by karayel at 3:37 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's so messed up that a basic human need has been politicized into this shit-storm of hate and bigotry. Fuck these assholes.
posted by Fizz at 3:43 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 3:43 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
And part of this is not just a "fuck you" to progressive communities, but to school systems and the Department of Education mandate that anti-trans discrimination is gender discrimination.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 3:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 3:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
It astounds me that anyone could listen to those children testify about being bullied, and having to hold their bladders all day and vote to discriminate against them. Or the woman who mentioned that her partner, a transgender man has a full beard and now will have to use the women's room in North Carolina. What planet do these legislators live on?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:49 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:49 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
jpe: "Eh, that's misleading. It provides a private right of action against entities that don't have sexed bathrooms."
No it doesn't. It requires all bathrooms other than single stall bathrooms to be sexed. Students may request alternative options such as a single stall bathroom but thanks to weasel words ("to the extend reasonable") there does not seem to be any actual enforceable mandate to provide them.
No it doesn't. It requires all bathrooms other than single stall bathrooms to be sexed. Students may request alternative options such as a single stall bathroom but thanks to weasel words ("to the extend reasonable") there does not seem to be any actual enforceable mandate to provide them.
Sec. 5. (a) (1) Every public school and postsecondary educational institution student restroom, locker room and shower room accessible by multiple students at the same time shall be designated for use by male students only or female students only.And the $2,500 doesn't seem to be at the court's discretion but a mandatory minimum along with other damages and attorney fees/court costs so it might as well be a bounty. To say otherwise seems to be splitting a mighty fine hair:
[...]
(b) (1) Students who, for any reason, desire greater privacy [...], may submit a request to such officials for access to alternative facilities. The school or institution official to whom a request is submitted shall evaluate such request and shall, to the extent reasonable, offer options for alternative facilities.
Sec. 6. (e) Students aggrieved under this section may obtain appropriate relief, which shall include:posted by Hairy Lobster at 4:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
(1) Statutory damages in an amount of $2,500 for each instance in which the aggrieved student encountered a person of the opposite sex while accessing a public school or postsecondary educational institution student restroom, locker room or shower room designated for use by the aggrieved student's sex;
(2) monetary damages for all psychological, emotional and physical harm suffered as a result of a violation of this section;
(3) reasonable attorney fees and costs; and
(4) such other relief as the court deems appropriate.
What planet do these legislators live on?
The one that lost same-sex marriage as a rallying cry to get their base out to vote, so they need to set their sights on an even more hated group.
posted by desjardins at 4:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
The one that lost same-sex marriage as a rallying cry to get their base out to vote, so they need to set their sights on an even more hated group.
posted by desjardins at 4:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Disgusted by those that represent my state today.
posted by oceanjesse at 4:35 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oceanjesse at 4:35 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Even though obviously the victims here are the people who face discrimination, I feel intensely sad for people who have such a small emotional world that they are not just lazily hateful but actually put energy into advancing hatred as a cause. I can't help but think that even if they are materially satisfied, as many of them are, their interior lives must be miserable.
posted by threeants at 5:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by threeants at 5:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It looks like we are witnessing the violent, mean-spirited death throes of a civilization on the verge of irrelevance, if not actual extinction. And by "civilization" I mean "angry, old, white guys."
posted by pjsky at 5:11 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 5:11 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately I don't think anti-trans bigotry is in any way limited to men, white people, or old people.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:17 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thefoxgod at 5:17 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't even have a snarky comment to this. These people are utterly contemptible.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 5:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
A friend-of-friends made this "missed connections" ad in response to a similar measure in Washington which thankfully died in committee. Change the names and it probably works in North Carolina too.
posted by ActionPopulated at 6:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ActionPopulated at 6:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
How common is it for transgender individuals to use a restroom that does not match their gender presentation?
More than never, which is what North Carolina Republicans would like it to be.
People in North Carolina, I am so sorry, this sucks. The only up side that I see is that maybe this will wind up fast tracked to the Supreme Court where these bigots will get their asses handed to them and transgender people get guaranteed the right to use whatever restroom they want, forever.
posted by jessamyn at 6:34 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Many many people can't take hormones or afford surgery (or don't want
Just want to point out - hormones aren't magic. They don't enable everyone to pass. Nor does surgery (especially not genital surgery, because how often are people checking your crotch to determine your gender?)
People will assume I'm in the wrong bathroom whichever I use.
This whole situation is competely fucked. Trans people of North Carolina, you deserve better.
posted by Dysk at 6:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
Just want to point out - hormones aren't magic. They don't enable everyone to pass. Nor does surgery (especially not genital surgery, because how often are people checking your crotch to determine your gender?)
People will assume I'm in the wrong bathroom whichever I use.
This whole situation is competely fucked. Trans people of North Carolina, you deserve better.
posted by Dysk at 6:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
Elections happen all the time. First Tuesday in November is the LEAST important election to impact your life personally.
I have a Republican, Tea-Party, Trump campaigner as my State senator, because the election happened in early January. I was confident my local media and local e-media and Social Networking would alert me to the fact we were putting a goddamn Fascist up on Federal Hill if an election were to take place.
Nope. No warning. I did not pay attention to the state election board's website like I do now.
The local NPR affiliate informed me on the day after that my town had sent a lunatic to state legislature. Way, to go, guys! Maybe report on an election happening BEFORE it happens, so your listeners can VOTE?
Fuck. Yes, I said fuck. Go to your state's election board site, go in person to town hall at least once per month asking after the next election. VOTE in it! Get everyone to vote! We'll win a few of 'em, more than enough to matter!
Go to your state's website to see when the next local election is. Vote in it. Better yet, join the local Democratic Party, even and especially because you hate them, and get the vote out! Knock on doors, after 5:00pm, and ask people to vote.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:04 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
I have a Republican, Tea-Party, Trump campaigner as my State senator, because the election happened in early January. I was confident my local media and local e-media and Social Networking would alert me to the fact we were putting a goddamn Fascist up on Federal Hill if an election were to take place.
Nope. No warning. I did not pay attention to the state election board's website like I do now.
The local NPR affiliate informed me on the day after that my town had sent a lunatic to state legislature. Way, to go, guys! Maybe report on an election happening BEFORE it happens, so your listeners can VOTE?
Fuck. Yes, I said fuck. Go to your state's election board site, go in person to town hall at least once per month asking after the next election. VOTE in it! Get everyone to vote! We'll win a few of 'em, more than enough to matter!
Go to your state's website to see when the next local election is. Vote in it. Better yet, join the local Democratic Party, even and especially because you hate them, and get the vote out! Knock on doors, after 5:00pm, and ask people to vote.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:04 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Ugh, I was there watching in person the whole day. I haven't read any of this yet. I accompanied a trans guy, young one, into a women's restroom outside the general assembly gallery because he was scared to use the men's room like he would normally. I have to go to bed and then get up early and go answer a bunch of questions (influential) people are going to have about this, at an event I had planned weeks ago to address why the work I do relates to this. It's gonna be a shit show.
posted by Stewriffic at 7:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Stewriffic at 7:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [21 favorites]
Although I did literally write "I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice" on my powerpoint, so there's that.
posted by Stewriffic at 7:13 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Stewriffic at 7:13 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's crazy how afraid people are of situations that aren't even likely to ever happen. That trans person isn't going to hurt you. "Oh but what if a man goes into a woman's bathroom to attack them". Well, consider the type of person that would do such a thing, do you think a law will stop them?
I used to work at a place where we had these wheeled bins that we'd wheel over to our desk to work our shift. At the end of the shift we had to put our bins back. The same people always "forgot" to move their bins so the supervisors said "If you forget to move your bin back we're going to put it in the opposite sex's bathroom". It was meant to be a humiliating experience for the guy or the girl to have to go in there and get their bin. One of the guys said "If they make me go into a woman's bathroom to get my bin, it's their fault if I rape someone". Bathroom stupidity.
posted by Hazelsmrf at 7:16 PM on March 23, 2016
I used to work at a place where we had these wheeled bins that we'd wheel over to our desk to work our shift. At the end of the shift we had to put our bins back. The same people always "forgot" to move their bins so the supervisors said "If you forget to move your bin back we're going to put it in the opposite sex's bathroom". It was meant to be a humiliating experience for the guy or the girl to have to go in there and get their bin. One of the guys said "If they make me go into a woman's bathroom to get my bin, it's their fault if I rape someone". Bathroom stupidity.
posted by Hazelsmrf at 7:16 PM on March 23, 2016
Ugh, the Gov signed it into law
posted by Stewriffic at 7:26 PM on March 23, 2016
posted by Stewriffic at 7:26 PM on March 23, 2016
Pro-Equality Groups Considering Legal Challenge to North Carolina’s Sweeping Anti-LGBT Law
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:31 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:31 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, damn. I was looking at property in NC because I love the land there, but if politics are just as batshit crazy there as they are here, there's no point in going there.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:45 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:45 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The bigots are steadily working their way down Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs to find new ways to humiliate people. What a grotesque show of obsession and control.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by wenestvedt at 7:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
From the Facebook page of Campaign for Southern Equality (@CSELive on Twitter):
posted by desjardins at 7:50 PM on March 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Rally tomorrow to protest HB2 – join Campaign for Southern Equality and other organizations at Vance Monument in Asheville at 5 p.m. More details TBA. #avlnews #ncpolWE. NEED. CIS. PEOPLE. We are less than 1% of the population. Republicans are just fine with killing us all, or failing that, making our lives hell. Please. We need you.
posted by desjardins at 7:50 PM on March 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
This is horrible, but also a really good reminder that people need to pay attention to their local races. I know they get horrible coverage but they're this important.
posted by zutalors! at 7:53 PM on March 23, 2016
posted by zutalors! at 7:53 PM on March 23, 2016
Seriously, this deserves a full-out riot. Signing this hateful piece of shit into law is beyond appalling.
posted by schmod at 8:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by schmod at 8:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
The state I love is a mess.
This is the same legislature that took over the city of Asheville's water system, tried to take over the Charlotte airport, and redistricted the Greensboro City Council. Oh, they also put together a plan to redistribute sales tax revenues to benefit poor, rural (Republican) counties. And maneuvered the firing of the well-regarded president of the state university system and appointed Bush protege Margaret Spellings (not even going to dignify her with a link.) And our governor (once thought of as the jovial, moderate mayor of Charlotte) has turned out to be a puppet of a puppet of the Koch brothers. (Note, Art Pope no longer holds the post he held when profiled in the linked WaPo article, but his influence persists.)
Did I forget any other atrocities, fellow tarheels?
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:21 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is the same legislature that took over the city of Asheville's water system, tried to take over the Charlotte airport, and redistricted the Greensboro City Council. Oh, they also put together a plan to redistribute sales tax revenues to benefit poor, rural (Republican) counties. And maneuvered the firing of the well-regarded president of the state university system and appointed Bush protege Margaret Spellings (not even going to dignify her with a link.) And our governor (once thought of as the jovial, moderate mayor of Charlotte) has turned out to be a puppet of a puppet of the Koch brothers. (Note, Art Pope no longer holds the post he held when profiled in the linked WaPo article, but his influence persists.)
Did I forget any other atrocities, fellow tarheels?
posted by Sweetie Darling at 8:21 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
The irony here is that North Carolina just made it legally mandatory for a bunch of burly guys with beards and tattoos* to use the Women's room.
Good job, assholes. You literally just accomplished the exact opposite of the thing you were trying to do.
* Beards and tattoos are awesome.
posted by schmod at 8:23 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Good job, assholes. You literally just accomplished the exact opposite of the thing you were trying to do.
* Beards and tattoos are awesome.
posted by schmod at 8:23 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Hello, this is Law of Unintended Consequences."
*muffled voice on telephone*
"Oh really, you don't say?"
*more muffled voices*
"They DID?! Tonight?! I'm just finishing up this week's episode of Drag Race but I'll be right over."
*hang up*
posted by LastOfHisKind at 8:30 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
*muffled voice on telephone*
"Oh really, you don't say?"
*more muffled voices*
"They DID?! Tonight?! I'm just finishing up this week's episode of Drag Race but I'll be right over."
*hang up*
posted by LastOfHisKind at 8:30 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
The irony here is that North Carolina just made it legally mandatory for a bunch of burly guys with beards and tattoos* to use the Women's room.
Someone on twitter just posted that his partner, a trans man, was assaulted in the women's room because a lady told her boyfriend that a man was in there, and the boyfriend and his friends jumped the trans guy.
I honestly feel safer in the men's room because of the "guy code" that mandates you never look at, speak to, or use the stall/urinal next to anyone.
posted by desjardins at 8:57 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Someone on twitter just posted that his partner, a trans man, was assaulted in the women's room because a lady told her boyfriend that a man was in there, and the boyfriend and his friends jumped the trans guy.
I honestly feel safer in the men's room because of the "guy code" that mandates you never look at, speak to, or use the stall/urinal next to anyone.
posted by desjardins at 8:57 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't live in North Carolina, but it's important to note that Governor McCrory is in a very tight re-election battle against NC's AG, Roy Cooper. The race is a complete toss-up (I think like 2% separate them at this moment), and could go either way. Cooper's statement on tonight's reprehensible bill signing: "North Carolina is better than this."
Hopefully this insanity starts pushing people towards Cooper and towards a new Governor.
posted by tittergrrl at 9:25 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hopefully this insanity starts pushing people towards Cooper and towards a new Governor.
posted by tittergrrl at 9:25 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Feeling pretty happy I left NC last year. There are some really good people there, but the government just gets worse and worse.
posted by scose at 9:52 PM on March 23, 2016
posted by scose at 9:52 PM on March 23, 2016
remember that it's not just NC... 16 other states have similar bills in the works. (Including my own, Wisconsin, and you will see me turn into a RABID ANIMAL if it makes any progress.)
posted by desjardins at 10:03 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 10:03 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Raleigh area rally today, Thursday the 24th.
posted by Stewriffic at 2:20 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Stewriffic at 2:20 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
The irony here is that North Carolina just made it legally mandatory for a bunch of burly guys with beards and tattoos* to use the Women's room.
I want to gently remind people that this is argument against bathroom laws is kind of problematic (though you totally see it from trans guys on social media). When push comes to shove, trans people are going to use whatever bathroom is least likely to get them hassled, regardless of what the law says, same as they've always done. Trans men who are perceived consistently as men (especially those with beards!) have boatloads of privilege in that department--any person read consistently as their gender has loads of privilege in the bathroom department, but then throw in transmisogyny and the fact that gender is policed differently in men's and women's bathrooms. Saying "Well, you wouldn't want Bob [insert photo] in your bathroom, would you?" just reinforces the idea that we should be "protecting" women's bathrooms from people using the toilet who might be perceived to be men. Additionally, trans people's freedom to go about their lives without fear should not be conditioned on conforming to cis people's notions of gender presentation.
posted by hoyland at 4:27 AM on March 24, 2016 [24 favorites]
I want to gently remind people that this is argument against bathroom laws is kind of problematic (though you totally see it from trans guys on social media). When push comes to shove, trans people are going to use whatever bathroom is least likely to get them hassled, regardless of what the law says, same as they've always done. Trans men who are perceived consistently as men (especially those with beards!) have boatloads of privilege in that department--any person read consistently as their gender has loads of privilege in the bathroom department, but then throw in transmisogyny and the fact that gender is policed differently in men's and women's bathrooms. Saying "Well, you wouldn't want Bob [insert photo] in your bathroom, would you?" just reinforces the idea that we should be "protecting" women's bathrooms from people using the toilet who might be perceived to be men. Additionally, trans people's freedom to go about their lives without fear should not be conditioned on conforming to cis people's notions of gender presentation.
posted by hoyland at 4:27 AM on March 24, 2016 [24 favorites]
(though you totally see it from trans guys on social media).
I actually see trans women use this very effectively. I think cis women understand the messaging when put in those terms.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:34 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I actually see trans women use this very effectively. I think cis women understand the messaging when put in those terms.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:34 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
So in NC, people with XY chromosomes and androgen-insensitivity are now required to use the men's room? Are they going to spring for genetic testing for all people with female-appearing genitalia?
In all seriousness, this shit won't stop until companies start pulling up stakes out of RTP or Charlotte over it.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:44 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
In all seriousness, this shit won't stop until companies start pulling up stakes out of RTP or Charlotte over it.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:44 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't live in North Carolina, but it's important to note that Governor McCrory is in a very tight re-election battle against NC's AG, Roy Cooper. The race is a complete toss-up (I think like 2% separate them at this moment), and could go either way. Cooper's statement on tonight's reprehensible bill signing: "North Carolina is better than this."
The only - ONLY - silver lining that we might get off of this is that hopefully people will get off their asses and vote and get these fuckers out of office. It's only going to cost 8 months of my loved ones fear and danger. (Along with my wife and I losing the protections we had when it comes to housing discrimination in my city. And my sister's best friend now having to look for family restrooms forever so she can take her son to the restroom when he needs to go. And and and... I'm not awake enough for this nonsense yet.)
posted by joycehealy at 5:13 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
The only - ONLY - silver lining that we might get off of this is that hopefully people will get off their asses and vote and get these fuckers out of office. It's only going to cost 8 months of my loved ones fear and danger. (Along with my wife and I losing the protections we had when it comes to housing discrimination in my city. And my sister's best friend now having to look for family restrooms forever so she can take her son to the restroom when he needs to go. And and and... I'm not awake enough for this nonsense yet.)
posted by joycehealy at 5:13 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Anyone have a list of North Carolina-based companies that we can start contacting about the boycott? I'm going to be emailing Hanes (which makes a lot of brands, including Champion workout clothes), Burt's Bees, and Lowe's, but I know there have to be a lot of others.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:13 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:13 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, less than 10 miles from the legislature where this was passed, I'm working in a major corporation where the VP in the corner office announced in a company-wide email that an employee here wished to announce her transition from male to female, and that we should all do our best to support her. And everybody has, and it's just not a big deal*. No one seems concerned about the bathrooms either.
*Well, it's a big deal in a good way that this sort of progress is being made.
posted by freecellwizard at 6:10 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
*Well, it's a big deal in a good way that this sort of progress is being made.
posted by freecellwizard at 6:10 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Son of a fucking BITCH. I need to go donate money to Roy Cooper right now.
posted by corvikate at 6:29 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by corvikate at 6:29 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
This law really only hurts people who look gender non-conforming. I kind of wonder how long it's going to be until a cis woman or cis man who isn't trying very hard to conform gets popped by the gender police in the "correct" bathroom. And if anyone in the media or law enforcement will care.
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:34 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by blnkfrnk at 6:34 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
And it's a dumb message. Because most trans women don't pass as cis.
OK, I'm fairly certain you have no statistics on that, but a lot of trans people use it as a message, so I'm going to say "not dumb."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:34 AM on March 24, 2016
OK, I'm fairly certain you have no statistics on that, but a lot of trans people use it as a message, so I'm going to say "not dumb."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:34 AM on March 24, 2016
Anyone have a list of North Carolina-based companies that we can start contacting about the boycott?
Here are the "Top 75" whatever that means. Keep in mind, some of them are just as pissed off about this law as you or I. Red Hat, for example, issued this statement.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:44 AM on March 24, 2016
Here are the "Top 75" whatever that means. Keep in mind, some of them are just as pissed off about this law as you or I. Red Hat, for example, issued this statement.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:44 AM on March 24, 2016
even though this threat has been investigated in other states and found to be virtually nonexistent
Much like voter fraud.
It's amazing how good Republicans are at ginning up fear to sell their lousy policies.
posted by Gelatin at 6:51 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Much like voter fraud.
It's amazing how good Republicans are at ginning up fear to sell their lousy policies.
posted by Gelatin at 6:51 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, bait-and-switch. The endgame of bathroom bills is to legalize discrimination. "We can't give you a job/education because we legally can't let you use the bathroom while you're here."
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:02 AM on March 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:02 AM on March 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
These lawmakers are also failing to take into account people with disabilities who may need to bring a caregiver of the opposite sex into the bathroom to help them. That's already an awkward situation, but now they could be threatened with prosecution for it?
posted by Soliloquy at 7:36 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Soliloquy at 7:36 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Please don't turn your backs on this state
Yes! I've been here since 1973 and it's a wonderful place despite pockets of bigotry and fundamentalism, which frankly exist in some form pretty much everywhere (like the Northeast - many of my NC friends were surprised at the uptick in casual racism they saw or felt when moving from NC to Boston or some other supposed liberal bastion).
Also we have a lot of breweries. A lot lot lot of breweries :-)
posted by freecellwizard at 7:48 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes! I've been here since 1973 and it's a wonderful place despite pockets of bigotry and fundamentalism, which frankly exist in some form pretty much everywhere (like the Northeast - many of my NC friends were surprised at the uptick in casual racism they saw or felt when moving from NC to Boston or some other supposed liberal bastion).
Also we have a lot of breweries. A lot lot lot of breweries :-)
posted by freecellwizard at 7:48 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also we have a lot of breweries. A lot lot lot of breweries :-)
No joke. There are 4 or 5 breweries in my town of 17,000, most with tap houses, one with a full pub/restaurant.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:55 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
No joke. There are 4 or 5 breweries in my town of 17,000, most with tap houses, one with a full pub/restaurant.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:55 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
the uptick in casual racism they saw or felt when moving from NC to Boston
Oh, Boston is definitely (to use our local vernacular) wicked racist. We don't have the evangelical protestant push behind it, just plain old angry white folks. (When I moved from Boston to Seattle, the sudden exposure to holy roller evangelical protestants was ... a culture shock.)
I'm pleased to see some NC companies stepping up quickly, and hopefully the threat of losing future business thanks to Disney etc will also provide pressure without hurting the people of the state. I think evidence has shown that things that hurt the *people* in a state doesn't seem to do much to change Republican policies, but business, that they may notice.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:00 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, Boston is definitely (to use our local vernacular) wicked racist. We don't have the evangelical protestant push behind it, just plain old angry white folks. (When I moved from Boston to Seattle, the sudden exposure to holy roller evangelical protestants was ... a culture shock.)
I'm pleased to see some NC companies stepping up quickly, and hopefully the threat of losing future business thanks to Disney etc will also provide pressure without hurting the people of the state. I think evidence has shown that things that hurt the *people* in a state doesn't seem to do much to change Republican policies, but business, that they may notice.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:00 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
consider the type of person that would do such a thing, do you think a law will stop them
Exactly. Its not like there is someone monitoring every bathroom to make sure that only women go in the women's room and only men go in the men's room. It also completely ignores the fact that women can rape girls and men can rape boys.
I mean, assuming these laws never were created in the first place, was it actually illegal in most places for a person to use a restroom that didn't match their gender? There was nothing stopping men from just waiting in women's rooms before and these laws arent going to change that.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:03 AM on March 24, 2016
Exactly. Its not like there is someone monitoring every bathroom to make sure that only women go in the women's room and only men go in the men's room. It also completely ignores the fact that women can rape girls and men can rape boys.
I mean, assuming these laws never were created in the first place, was it actually illegal in most places for a person to use a restroom that didn't match their gender? There was nothing stopping men from just waiting in women's rooms before and these laws arent going to change that.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:03 AM on March 24, 2016
It also completely ignores the fact that women can rape girls and men can rape boys.
Yeah, no one's going to pass a law to protect my safety from straight guys. (And yes, I acknowledge that my anxieties are an irrational extrapolation.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 8:11 AM on March 24, 2016
Yeah, no one's going to pass a law to protect my safety from straight guys. (And yes, I acknowledge that my anxieties are an irrational extrapolation.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 8:11 AM on March 24, 2016
I know this is small potatoes compared to the trouble transgender people are going to face under this law, but what does this mean for parents who need to take little kids into public restrooms? I often brought my daughter into the men's room with me when she was too young to go by herself. Is that now illegal?
posted by Rock Steady at 8:32 AM on March 24, 2016
posted by Rock Steady at 8:32 AM on March 24, 2016
I know this is small potatoes compared to the trouble transgender people are going to face under this law, but what does this mean for parents who need to take little kids into public restrooms?
Nothing. This applies to schools.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:36 AM on March 24, 2016
Nothing. This applies to schools.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:36 AM on March 24, 2016
I've had to take my daughter into the public restrooms in schools, but now that I read the bill, it seems there is an exemption for parents and for people needing "assistance in using the facility" which would presumably apply to young children.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:43 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Rock Steady at 8:43 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
What part of "smaller government" and "stay out of people's lives" is this when Conservatives spend time and money trying to regulate people's genitals and gender?
posted by filthy light thief at 8:53 AM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 8:53 AM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Don’t forget, Trans People Are Loved (by Chase Strangio)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:09 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:09 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
> What part of "smaller government" and "stay out of people's lives" is this when Conservatives spend time and money trying to regulate people's genitals and gender?
I've said it before: government small enough to fit in your pants (and/or your uterus, if you've got one) is the kind of government too many people want.
posted by rtha at 9:33 AM on March 24, 2016
I've said it before: government small enough to fit in your pants (and/or your uterus, if you've got one) is the kind of government too many people want.
posted by rtha at 9:33 AM on March 24, 2016
Nothing. This applies to schools.
The bathroom part of the bill says that "public agencies" must require:
Here's a storify of mcclure111's tweets on the subject from yesterday
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:40 AM on March 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
The bathroom part of the bill says that "public agencies" must require:
(b) Single-Sex Multiple Occupancy Bathroom and Changing Facilities, - Public Agencies shall require every multiple occupancy bathroom or changing facility to be designated for and only used by person based on their biological sexwhich from the definitions:
Public agency. – Includes any of the following:Which is schools, but also courthouses, the DMV, maybe public libraries?, etc. It's not just schools.
a. Executive branch agencies.
b. All agencies, boards, offices, and departments under the direction and control of a member of the Council of State.
e. A local board of education.
f. The judicial branch.
g. The legislative branch.
h. Any other political subdivision of the State
Executive branch agency - Agencies, boards, offices, departments, and institutions of the executive branch, including The University of North Carolina and the North Carolina Community College System.
Here's a storify of mcclure111's tweets on the subject from yesterday
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:40 AM on March 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
This applies to schools.
No it doesn't, it applies to state government agencies under the control of the executive branch. Scroll down to the bottom for the bill text. See page 2. I don't know exactly what those are but it calls out several universities. Maybe the DMV? State capitol?
But I agree with odinsdream that this isn't really about bathrooms and oh my god you people with your "but what about opposite-gender parents and disabled people" just... [unprintable expletives]. CIS PEOPLE, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. It specifically excludes medical assistance and other situations - otherwise how could female janitors clean the men's room? No one is trying to take away your rights. This bill is specifically targeted at trans people.
posted by desjardins at 9:47 AM on March 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
No it doesn't, it applies to state government agencies under the control of the executive branch. Scroll down to the bottom for the bill text. See page 2. I don't know exactly what those are but it calls out several universities. Maybe the DMV? State capitol?
But I agree with odinsdream that this isn't really about bathrooms and oh my god you people with your "but what about opposite-gender parents and disabled people" just... [unprintable expletives]. CIS PEOPLE, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. It specifically excludes medical assistance and other situations - otherwise how could female janitors clean the men's room? No one is trying to take away your rights. This bill is specifically targeted at trans people.
posted by desjardins at 9:47 AM on March 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
argh, I type too slow. Thanks, vibratory etc.
posted by desjardins at 9:47 AM on March 24, 2016
posted by desjardins at 9:47 AM on March 24, 2016
But I agree with odinsdream that this isn't really about bathrooms and oh my god you people with your "but what about opposite-gender parents and disabled people" just... [unprintable expletives].
The exceptions are part of what shows the bad intent of the bill, though. Republicans in NC are pretending to be scared of men lying and saying "I am actually a trans woman and you can't prove otherwise" and hanging out in the bathroom creeping on women and maybe raping some while they stroke their Snidely Whiplash moustaches. But the law still allows men to go into women's bathrooms for creeping and raping; they just have to bring a little girl in with them. So they can't really be very concerned about men creeping and raping, now, can they?
If only we could somehow criminalize creeping on people in the bathroom, or raping people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:01 AM on March 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
The exceptions are part of what shows the bad intent of the bill, though. Republicans in NC are pretending to be scared of men lying and saying "I am actually a trans woman and you can't prove otherwise" and hanging out in the bathroom creeping on women and maybe raping some while they stroke their Snidely Whiplash moustaches. But the law still allows men to go into women's bathrooms for creeping and raping; they just have to bring a little girl in with them. So they can't really be very concerned about men creeping and raping, now, can they?
If only we could somehow criminalize creeping on people in the bathroom, or raping people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:01 AM on March 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
the not-funny-at-all part is that if a woman accuses a man of rape, the woman is scrutizined, but if a cis woman accused a trans woman of rape I bet people would be "well yeah of course a trans woman would do that."
posted by desjardins at 10:09 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 10:09 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
OK, I'm fairly certain you have no statistics on that, but a lot of trans people use it as a message, so I'm going to say "not dumb."
As a non-passing trans woman, it stings, not least because I have been hassled in the ladies' by people who use exactly that message. It's dumb because it's short-sighted with regard to how problematically exclusionary it is, and because it furthers a narrative that what is important is keeping men out of the ladies' when there are a lot of women that people look at and see 'man'.
posted by Dysk at 10:19 AM on March 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
As a non-passing trans woman, it stings, not least because I have been hassled in the ladies' by people who use exactly that message. It's dumb because it's short-sighted with regard to how problematically exclusionary it is, and because it furthers a narrative that what is important is keeping men out of the ladies' when there are a lot of women that people look at and see 'man'.
posted by Dysk at 10:19 AM on March 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
It always good when you invoke "other trans people" to tell trans people they're wrong.
posted by hoyland at 10:21 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by hoyland at 10:21 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I wasn't doing that. Thanks, though.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:21 AM on March 24, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:21 AM on March 24, 2016
oh my god you people with your "but what about opposite-gender parents and disabled people" just... [unprintable expletives]. CIS PEOPLE, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
I really apologize if it seemed like that was what I was doing, it wasn't my intention. I guess I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy that ROU Xenophobe makes plain here. We have always made exceptions for people going into the restroom that doesn't match their biological sex, it's just now that trans people are asking for those same exceptions it becomes an issue. It's really despicable, and again, I'm sorry if I caused any offense.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:29 AM on March 24, 2016
I really apologize if it seemed like that was what I was doing, it wasn't my intention. I guess I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy that ROU Xenophobe makes plain here. We have always made exceptions for people going into the restroom that doesn't match their biological sex, it's just now that trans people are asking for those same exceptions it becomes an issue. It's really despicable, and again, I'm sorry if I caused any offense.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:29 AM on March 24, 2016
maybe public libraries?
I am concerned about this and am going to reach out to my librarian friends in NC to see what their take on this is.
posted by jessamyn at 11:12 AM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am concerned about this and am going to reach out to my librarian friends in NC to see what their take on this is.
posted by jessamyn at 11:12 AM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anyone have a list of North Carolina-based companies that we can start contacting about the boycott? I'm going to be emailing Hanes (which makes a lot of brands, including Champion workout clothes), Burt's Bees, and Lowe's, but I know there have to be a lot of others.
Is it appropriate to boycott companies that have explicitly come out against this bill, protest it, and will try to fight to have it overturned? Isn't more appropriate to levy economic punishment against those that are working against progress, instead of companies that are actual allies?
posted by el io at 12:02 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is it appropriate to boycott companies that have explicitly come out against this bill, protest it, and will try to fight to have it overturned? Isn't more appropriate to levy economic punishment against those that are working against progress, instead of companies that are actual allies?
posted by el io at 12:02 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is it appropriate to boycott companies that have explicitly come out against this bill, protest it, and will try to fight to have it overturned?
Yep, right up until they announce that they're closing their NC facilities and moving.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:10 PM on March 24, 2016
Yep, right up until they announce that they're closing their NC facilities and moving.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:10 PM on March 24, 2016
Yep, right up until they announce that they're closing their NC facilities and moving.
I don't believe that's the right thing to do. Many of these corporations and companies have LGBT employees who are local to North Carolina, and who depend on them for work.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:11 PM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't believe that's the right thing to do. Many of these corporations and companies have LGBT employees who are local to North Carolina, and who depend on them for work.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:11 PM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or participating in civil disobedience and refusing to mark their bathrooms in accordance with the law and defying people to come arrest them. I bet the public libraries could get behind this.
posted by jessamyn at 12:12 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 12:12 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Remember, this isn't like Indiana or Georgia, where there was lag time between the bill passing out of the legislature to the governor's desk to sign. The legislature and the governor specifically called an emergency session just to pass this bill, presumably to avoid that. For that reason, if you buy from companies who are explicitly against the law, I'd think it's better to keep on buying from them.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:19 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:19 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just saw this on my facebook:
Call to action for all of Durham local business to REACT to HB2 by deciding to consciously support the trans and queer community by MAKING ALL BATHROOMS GENDER NEUTRAL. Tag other businesses this is just a start and for no other reason other than these are folks we know! Several people are in and thank you are you guys? @bullcityciderworks @bullmccabesdnc @toastdurham @ponysaurusbrewing @dpacnc @carolinatheatredurham @motorcomh @wholefoodstriangle @bullcityburger @mateotapas @beyucaffe @piedmontrestaurant
(https://www.facebook.com/thepinhook/posts/10153978253040102)
posted by Stewriffic at 12:21 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Call to action for all of Durham local business to REACT to HB2 by deciding to consciously support the trans and queer community by MAKING ALL BATHROOMS GENDER NEUTRAL. Tag other businesses this is just a start and for no other reason other than these are folks we know! Several people are in and thank you are you guys? @bullcityciderworks @bullmccabesdnc @toastdurham @ponysaurusbrewing @dpacnc @carolinatheatredurham @motorcomh @wholefoodstriangle @bullcityburger @mateotapas @beyucaffe @piedmontrestaurant
(https://www.facebook.com/thepinhook/posts/10153978253040102)
posted by Stewriffic at 12:21 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
We have always made exceptions for people going into the restroom that doesn't match their biological sex, it's just now that trans people are asking for those same exceptions it becomes an issue.
I think you really do mean well, but 1. there is no such thing as biological sex, and 2. we're not asking for "exceptions to the rules" (which btw society just made up), we're asking for equal rights.
posted by desjardins at 1:09 PM on March 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think you really do mean well, but 1. there is no such thing as biological sex, and 2. we're not asking for "exceptions to the rules" (which btw society just made up), we're asking for equal rights.
posted by desjardins at 1:09 PM on March 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yeah, Sorry again. I was using the term the shitty bill uses, and I'll step out of the conversation.
posted by Rock Steady at 1:17 PM on March 24, 2016
posted by Rock Steady at 1:17 PM on March 24, 2016
Charlie Pierce: The Great State of North Carolina Has Gone Completely Insane
I give the city fathers of Charlotte credit for waving this red flag in front of the bullshit. How many ways does this reveal every last tenet of what is alleged to be conservative political philosophy to be a sham of a mockery of a farce?posted by zombieflanders at 2:29 PM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Let us count the ways.
Conservative political philosophy insists that the best government is that government closest to the people—unless, of course, it's a city that somehow offends the Bible-banging crackers in the state house. (You will note, by the way, that Charlotte's minimum wage increase also goes out as part of this deal. Arizona is up to the same mischief, too.) Down with local control! We must keep pure the lavatories of democracy!Not only does it prevent local governments from writing ordinances that allow people to use the bathroom corresponding to the gender with with they identify, it also preempts cities from passing their own nondiscrimination standards, saying the state's rules—which are more conservative—supersede localities. Local school district would be barred from allowing transgender students to use bathrooms or locker rooms that don't correspond to the gender listed on their birth certificate.The North Carolina legislature called itself into a special session in order to pass this nonsense. Only 25 percent of the voters polled support the action. Just calling the special session cost the taxpayers of North Carolina $42,000. And that's not even including the costs of the inevitable federal lawsuits that will ensue, and that the state is likely to lose. And that's not even including the cost to the state's tourism revenues.
Yeah, I wasn't doing that. Thanks, though.
I'm walking away after this. I was referring to the following:
posted by hoyland at 3:22 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm walking away after this. I was referring to the following:
a lot of trans people use it as a message, so I'm going to say "not dumb."We're not dumb. We know when cis people are telling us what to do.
posted by hoyland at 3:22 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
It hasn't been discussed in this thread, but I just read that the bill also includes two other far-reaching sections, one which disallows all private action with regard to discrimination defined in any of the state's laws (you can't, as an individual, get a state court to issue an injunction about, say, racial discrimination as defined by state law and you can't sue for damages in a state court for discrimination as defined by state law), and one that disallows local minimum-wage ordinances.
Either of these would be big news by themselves, but especially coupled with the transphobic bigotry and the extraordinary nature of the passage of this bill, it's...breathtaking in the very worst way.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:31 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Either of these would be big news by themselves, but especially coupled with the transphobic bigotry and the extraordinary nature of the passage of this bill, it's...breathtaking in the very worst way.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:31 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
The NBA just posted an announcement indicating that they are reconsidering Charlotte hosting the 2017 All Star game because of this "discriminatory law".
posted by colt45 at 4:23 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by colt45 at 4:23 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I'm going to defend boycotts a little bit here. I realize that they absolutely hurt people who don't support the law, including people who are directly harmed by the law. But I think one of the most potent weapons against this kind of legislation is the awareness on the part of the business community that hateful laws are very, very bad for their bottom line. I think that anything that reinforces that perception is helpful in overturning these laws where they exist and defeating them in other places where they are proposed.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:09 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
With all due respect, I would suggest your efforts are better placed with awareness and engagement in your local politics than in a boycott.I'm already doing that. My state is relatively good on these issues: our anti-discrimination ordinance has covered gender identity since 2007, and the state Civil Rights Commission has ruled that this guarantees people's right to use bathrooms and locker rooms in accordance with their gender identity. But I am very aware that laws are only as good as their enforcement, that there is always the possibility that good laws could be overturned, and that we still have a lot of work to do on things like extending hate crimes protections to trans people. I guess I don't really see any contradiction between working locally and protesting really horrific things that are going on elsewhere.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:09 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's probably worth noting that African-American boycotts from Ida Wells to MLK were not always economically easy for for the people participating.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:04 AM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:04 AM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
It won't really help if trans people boycott because we're less than 1% of the population. It would be a blip on their radar. LGB folks and their supporters are a much larger percent of the population and it's not like Chick-Fil-A went out of business. I even saw lots of LGB and "allies" moan and groan and violate the boycott because their chicken sandwiches were just so good.
Anyway I think shaming the companies on social media does more good. "[Company Name] supports bigotry" seems to force their hand into making a statement that they in fact do not (or conversely that they're '"neutral," in which case boycott their fucking ass.
posted by desjardins at 7:53 AM on March 25, 2016
Anyway I think shaming the companies on social media does more good. "[Company Name] supports bigotry" seems to force their hand into making a statement that they in fact do not (or conversely that they're '"neutral," in which case boycott their fucking ass.
posted by desjardins at 7:53 AM on March 25, 2016
Now this fucking asshole wants Charlotte to pay the $42,000 it cost to for him and his cronies to overturn our antidiscrimination ordinance and destroy our state's reputation
posted by Sweetie Darling at 2:13 PM on March 25, 2016
posted by Sweetie Darling at 2:13 PM on March 25, 2016
Someone on Twitter pointed out that under the new law, you can use the bathroom that corresponds with your birth certificate even if your sex designation has been changed on it. However, in order to change your sex on your BC in North Carolina, you have to have had genital surgery, which is out of reach for most trans people. Insurance often doesn't cover it, it's tens of thousands of dollars, and you have to take weeks off of work. 15% of trans people have an income below $10,000, 4 times the national rate.
posted by desjardins at 5:59 PM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 5:59 PM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
what, are people supposed to be carrying birth certificates around? This is so terrible.
posted by zutalors! at 6:07 PM on March 25, 2016
posted by zutalors! at 6:07 PM on March 25, 2016
I know some extremely reasonable people who moved to NC in the last few years - I hope they can convince others to vote out these people.
posted by zutalors! at 6:08 PM on March 25, 2016
posted by zutalors! at 6:08 PM on March 25, 2016
So let's say I, a trans man, use the women's room like I'm supposed to under this law. A woman in the bathroom accuses me of being a man (correct) and tells me to get out or she's calling the police. The police are called and... then what happens?
I appear male. My ID says male. I don't have my birth certificate on me. I haven't had genital surgery, but I am clothed, so no one knows that at this point.
I don't want to be arrested. So do I tell the police what my genitals look like? Does the cop strip search me to make sure I'm telling the truth? Does a male cop perform the search, because they think I'm a man? (They'd have to take my clothes off, because my packer would just convince them I had a penis if they did the grope test.) Has he now violated my civil rights because law enforcement aren't supposed to search "opposite sex" suspects? (I don't know if that's an actual law/regulation.) Would I be arrested until I can produce my birth certificate? Has anyone thought this shit through?
I'm not sure the opposite scenario is as likely to happen (man calling the cops on a trans woman in the men's room - either she'd be ignored or harassed), but I'm just telling this from my personal perspective.
posted by desjardins at 6:18 PM on March 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
I appear male. My ID says male. I don't have my birth certificate on me. I haven't had genital surgery, but I am clothed, so no one knows that at this point.
I don't want to be arrested. So do I tell the police what my genitals look like? Does the cop strip search me to make sure I'm telling the truth? Does a male cop perform the search, because they think I'm a man? (They'd have to take my clothes off, because my packer would just convince them I had a penis if they did the grope test.) Has he now violated my civil rights because law enforcement aren't supposed to search "opposite sex" suspects? (I don't know if that's an actual law/regulation.) Would I be arrested until I can produce my birth certificate? Has anyone thought this shit through?
I'm not sure the opposite scenario is as likely to happen (man calling the cops on a trans woman in the men's room - either she'd be ignored or harassed), but I'm just telling this from my personal perspective.
posted by desjardins at 6:18 PM on March 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's not about bathrooms and I think people here know this and are not rules-lawyering but are spitballing the very real possible outcomes of this asinine situation.
Like desjardins, I appear male (to a lot of people, based on my experience of being sir-ed and bro-ed by e.g. store clerks, and yelled at by other women in women's bathrooms), though I am a cis woman and my legal identity reflects that. But when someone is (trying) to enforce this law in real time, how is that going to happen?
posted by rtha at 9:55 PM on March 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like desjardins, I appear male (to a lot of people, based on my experience of being sir-ed and bro-ed by e.g. store clerks, and yelled at by other women in women's bathrooms), though I am a cis woman and my legal identity reflects that. But when someone is (trying) to enforce this law in real time, how is that going to happen?
posted by rtha at 9:55 PM on March 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
In case you're still reading this, odinsdream, I know that the ultimate goal is genocide, to make us disappear with "reparative" therapy or involuntarily committing us or pushing us into poverty/homelessness or letting us be murdered or driving us to kill ourselves. I am not diminishing that. I am also not trying to deprecate the lived experiences of trans women and nonbinary folks (especially AMABs) by relating mine as a trans man, because I have a lower risk of violence.
However, I feel paranoia every time I enter a men's room. I had crazy anxiety about going to the mall today. I can't imagine what that would be like as a trans woman. I'd probably be tempted to just stay home and order everything from Amazon. If my state passes a law like NC's, I don't know what I would do, I don't know how I am supposed to interact in public life. I don't go to protests because I'm terrified of going to a men's jail. I don't pass consistently as male, but I am starting to grow facial hair and my voice is deepening so it's just a matter of time before I have no option to pretend I'm female if the shit hits the fan.
posted by desjardins at 1:48 PM on March 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
However, I feel paranoia every time I enter a men's room. I had crazy anxiety about going to the mall today. I can't imagine what that would be like as a trans woman. I'd probably be tempted to just stay home and order everything from Amazon. If my state passes a law like NC's, I don't know what I would do, I don't know how I am supposed to interact in public life. I don't go to protests because I'm terrified of going to a men's jail. I don't pass consistently as male, but I am starting to grow facial hair and my voice is deepening so it's just a matter of time before I have no option to pretend I'm female if the shit hits the fan.
posted by desjardins at 1:48 PM on March 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
(Well, it's linked in that article, I mean)
posted by Stewriffic at 6:05 AM on March 28, 2016
posted by Stewriffic at 6:05 AM on March 28, 2016
Governor Deal of Georgia will be holding a press conference at 10am to talk about their legislation.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on March 28, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on March 28, 2016
...and it sounds like Gov. Deal is going to veto the religious freedom bill, while pointing out that Georgia does not have a human rights bill or a public accommodation law.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 AM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 AM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Really hope that lawsuit gets pushed through as fast as the bill was.
posted by rebent at 10:30 AM on March 28, 2016
posted by rebent at 10:30 AM on March 28, 2016
I assume that's a tactical move with regard to the lawsuit. Trans men being legally obligated to use the women's room pushes the 'men in the women's room' narrative right back in their faces.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:04 AM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:04 AM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
ACLU NC put a video out. There is some discussion about trans women that the lead plaintiff mentions.
posted by Stewriffic at 11:46 AM on March 28, 2016
posted by Stewriffic at 11:46 AM on March 28, 2016
If we could just accept that the "oh no men in the ladies'" narrative is inherently problematic, not least for trans women who do not pass (hi!) and maybe actually oppose it rather than try and coopt it for the benefit of trans people (by which I'm obviously excluding the aforementioned badly passing trans women, because we sure as fuck don't benefit) that'd be awesome.
posted by Dysk at 5:17 AM on March 29, 2016
posted by Dysk at 5:17 AM on March 29, 2016
The stated reasoning for not having trans women in the NC lawsuit is that they would be (sadly) at a greater risk of violence than a trans man for being a public-facing plaintiff. Seems to me (and I would gladly stand corrected if I am missing something) that that statement refutes the "oh no men in the ladies" narrative by showcasing that the people at risk here are the trans women.
That narrative is horrible, and I am not a fan of trans men co-opting it as I have seen some do by putting their very well-passing pictures up and saying "Do you want me in the ladies room?"
Again, if I am missing something, let me know because my position is pro- civil rights, pro- LGBT rights, anti-bigotry, and anti- HB2. I need to be well-educated to help effect any positive change here on the ground in NC.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:29 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
That narrative is horrible, and I am not a fan of trans men co-opting it as I have seen some do by putting their very well-passing pictures up and saying "Do you want me in the ladies room?"
Again, if I am missing something, let me know because my position is pro- civil rights, pro- LGBT rights, anti-bigotry, and anti- HB2. I need to be well-educated to help effect any positive change here on the ground in NC.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:29 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
("that narrative" refers to the "oh no men in the ladies" narrative, in case that wasn't clear)
posted by Stewriffic at 6:51 AM on March 29, 2016
posted by Stewriffic at 6:51 AM on March 29, 2016
Seems to me (and I would gladly stand corrected if I am missing something) that that statement refutes the "oh no men in the ladies" narrative by showcasing that the people at risk here are the trans women
It doesn't. It's the same people calling us men in the ladies' that are enacting the violence - to state that trans women are most at risk of violence does nothing to address the issue of the legitimacy of claim to womanhood. It's perfectly possible to know that we risk being beaten up and still think we're interlocutors who shouldn't be there. It can even be squared with thinking we deserve it.
posted by Dysk at 9:32 AM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
It doesn't. It's the same people calling us men in the ladies' that are enacting the violence - to state that trans women are most at risk of violence does nothing to address the issue of the legitimacy of claim to womanhood. It's perfectly possible to know that we risk being beaten up and still think we're interlocutors who shouldn't be there. It can even be squared with thinking we deserve it.
posted by Dysk at 9:32 AM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks, Dysk. I sincerely appreciate your help with this.
I agree wholeheartedly with what you said re: a statement that trans women are at high risk of violence not addressing the issue of legitimacy in the least.
I guess where my disconnect is is that I don't think the lawsuit is using trans men instead of trans women as a tactic to turn the ugly "oh no men in women's bathrooms" narrative on the people who support the discrimination, and I was understanding your take as believing that the lawsuit was doing that. The lead plaintiff, a trans man, said (paraphrase, obviously), 'Oh hey, I'm here because you people suck and put trans women at more risk that I have as a man, and what I saw applies to trans women, too," and then he goes on to talk about things such as that he is not just a trans man, he is a man, period. And that he rightfully uses the men's room. Etc. So *I* hear him saying that it's absolutely legitimate for trans people to use the bathrooms that align with their gender identity, and including trans women in that statement.
But it may be also just that since I know the plaintiff and the lawyers that my thoughts are influenced by some kind of inside info that I know, and that that information isn't in available via the lawsuit and articles, but I didn't realize that.
I also recognize that if I keep talking about this aspect of the situation here I am treading close to what would outwardly appear to be sealioning, so I will stop here. If you are interested in talking more, I am happy to, maybe via memail.
posted by Stewriffic at 10:50 AM on March 29, 2016
I agree wholeheartedly with what you said re: a statement that trans women are at high risk of violence not addressing the issue of legitimacy in the least.
I guess where my disconnect is is that I don't think the lawsuit is using trans men instead of trans women as a tactic to turn the ugly "oh no men in women's bathrooms" narrative on the people who support the discrimination, and I was understanding your take as believing that the lawsuit was doing that. The lead plaintiff, a trans man, said (paraphrase, obviously), 'Oh hey, I'm here because you people suck and put trans women at more risk that I have as a man, and what I saw applies to trans women, too," and then he goes on to talk about things such as that he is not just a trans man, he is a man, period. And that he rightfully uses the men's room. Etc. So *I* hear him saying that it's absolutely legitimate for trans people to use the bathrooms that align with their gender identity, and including trans women in that statement.
But it may be also just that since I know the plaintiff and the lawyers that my thoughts are influenced by some kind of inside info that I know, and that that information isn't in available via the lawsuit and articles, but I didn't realize that.
I also recognize that if I keep talking about this aspect of the situation here I am treading close to what would outwardly appear to be sealioning, so I will stop here. If you are interested in talking more, I am happy to, maybe via memail.
posted by Stewriffic at 10:50 AM on March 29, 2016
The thing is that this legislation passing was done by a campaign of demonising trans women as men in the ladies'. Putting a trans man at the front of a challenge to it will always seem more like a challenge along the lines of "look at your unintended consequences" rather than a challenge to the central thesis.
posted by Dysk at 1:54 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:54 PM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
You do a hell of a lot of heavy lifting in these threads on Metafilter, Dysk. Just wanted to say thank you, and that I wish good things for you, right now in particular.
posted by pseudonymph at 3:35 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by pseudonymph at 3:35 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mississippi’s New Anti-LGBT Bill Claims That Women Can Be Fired For Wearing Pants
posted by homunculus at 1:02 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 1:02 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
It might start getting to the point where I actually hate the US for its (religious) freedoms.
posted by Dysk at 1:17 PM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:17 PM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well the good news is HB 1523 means my fellow Pastafarians, Kibologists, and Odinists can finally impose their religion on their foster kids. Otherwise it's all bad and it would seem blatantly federally unconstitutional in several ways.
posted by Mitheral at 9:03 PM on March 30, 2016
posted by Mitheral at 9:03 PM on March 30, 2016
Doesn't the bit at the beginning where they define what religious views it is the act addresses actually mean that it enables nothing of the sort (unless Pastafarianism et al are anti-LGBT now)?
posted by Dysk at 2:14 AM on March 31, 2016
posted by Dysk at 2:14 AM on March 31, 2016
Ugh, your right. So to sum up: HB1523 = no redeeming features.
posted by Mitheral at 12:49 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by Mitheral at 12:49 PM on March 31, 2016
HRC and Equality NC took two trans women along with them to deliver signatures from over 100 business leaders standing against the new NC law to Gov. McCrory.
posted by Stewriffic at 3:01 PM on March 31, 2016
posted by Stewriffic at 3:01 PM on March 31, 2016
North Carolina Starts To Face Real Economic Consequences For Anti-LGBT Law
posted by homunculus at 2:48 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 2:48 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
A Wells Fargo Skyscraper in North Carolina Lit Up the Sky With the Colors of the Trans Flag
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
In Deeply Personal Email To Customers, Gay CEO In NC Laments Anti-Gay Law
posted by indubitable at 12:28 PM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by indubitable at 12:28 PM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ivan Fyodorovich mentioned this upthread: Why North Carolina’s New Anti-LGBT Law is a Trojan Horse
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 6:08 PM on April 5, 2016
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 6:08 PM on April 5, 2016
Lionsgate pulls future production from North Carolina in wake of HB2; 100 jobs exported to Canada.
posted by Mitheral at 8:03 PM on April 5, 2016
posted by Mitheral at 8:03 PM on April 5, 2016
Bruce Springsteen cancels Greensboro, NC concert.
"As you, my fans, know I’m scheduled to play in Greensboro, North Carolina this Sunday. As we also know, North Carolina has just passed HB2, which the media are referring to as the “bathroom” law. HB2 — known officially as the Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act — dictates which bathrooms transgender people are permitted to use. Just as important, the law also attacks the rights of LGBT citizens to sue when their human rights are violated in the workplace. No other group of North Carolinians faces such a burden. To my mind, it’s an attempt by people who cannot stand the progress our country has made in recognizing the human rights of all of our citizens to overturn that progress. Right now, there are many groups, businesses, and individuals in North Carolina working to oppose and overcome these negative developments. Taking all of this into account, I feel that this is a time for me and the band to show solidarity for those freedom fighters. As a result, and with deepest apologies to our dedicated fans in Greensboro, we have canceled our show scheduled for Sunday, April 10th. Some things are more important than a rock show and this fight against prejudice and bigotry — which is happening as I write — is one of them. It is the strongest means I have for raising my voice in opposition to those who continue to push us backwards instead of forwards."
posted by Duffington at 1:05 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
"As you, my fans, know I’m scheduled to play in Greensboro, North Carolina this Sunday. As we also know, North Carolina has just passed HB2, which the media are referring to as the “bathroom” law. HB2 — known officially as the Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act — dictates which bathrooms transgender people are permitted to use. Just as important, the law also attacks the rights of LGBT citizens to sue when their human rights are violated in the workplace. No other group of North Carolinians faces such a burden. To my mind, it’s an attempt by people who cannot stand the progress our country has made in recognizing the human rights of all of our citizens to overturn that progress. Right now, there are many groups, businesses, and individuals in North Carolina working to oppose and overcome these negative developments. Taking all of this into account, I feel that this is a time for me and the band to show solidarity for those freedom fighters. As a result, and with deepest apologies to our dedicated fans in Greensboro, we have canceled our show scheduled for Sunday, April 10th. Some things are more important than a rock show and this fight against prejudice and bigotry — which is happening as I write — is one of them. It is the strongest means I have for raising my voice in opposition to those who continue to push us backwards instead of forwards."
posted by Duffington at 1:05 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Boorish North Carolina Congressman Calls Bruce Springsteen a 'Bully' for Protesting a Law That Bullies Transgender People
posted by homunculus at 3:05 PM on April 9, 2016
posted by homunculus at 3:05 PM on April 9, 2016
Ron Charles: John Grisham, Donna Tartt call on Mississippi to repeal anti-LGBTQ law
In their statement released Monday morning, 95 Mississippi authors declared, “It is deeply disturbing to so many of us to see the rhetoric of hate, thinly veiled, once more poison our political discourse.”posted by zombieflanders at 1:00 PM on April 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
They conclude: “Governor Phil Bryant and the Mississippi legislators who voted for this bill are not the sole voices of our state. There have always been people here battling injustice. That’s the version of Mississippi we believe in, and that’s the Mississippi we won’t stop fighting for.”
The statement was written and organized by Katy Simpson Smith, a novelist who was born and raised in Jackson, Miss.
“I was just getting more and more frustrated with this,” she said by phone, “and then I realized I do have a platform: all these Mississippi writers who have inspired me to write.” After composing the statement last week, she sent it to as many writers as she could contact. “It became this wonderful chain,” she said. “It was an amazing thing to see this outpouring of support from the writing community.”
What troubles Smith most about House Bill 1523 is its precedence.
“There’s this sense that Mississippi has gone down this path before,” she said. “I write a lot about race in my fiction, and to see the same kind of rhetoric start to be used to discriminate against gays and lesbians is like seeing this history repeating itself. It seemed so obvious to me and other writers that we had these demons that we’d confronted, and now they’re rearing their heads again.”
Mississippi interracial couple allegedly evicted because of their landlord's racist "religious beliefs"
posted by rmd1023 at 5:18 PM on April 11, 2016
posted by rmd1023 at 5:18 PM on April 11, 2016
It's getting real now. Porn site xhamster blocks NC users to protest anti-LGBT law.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:35 PM on April 11, 2016
posted by thefoxgod at 7:35 PM on April 11, 2016
Half measures, but McCrory walks it back a bit.
The executive order has five provisions:posted by oakroom at 1:54 PM on April 12, 2016
▪ It would encourage legislation to reinstate the right of employees to sue their employers in state court for discrimination. House Bill 2 took that right away, and requires those lawsuits be filed in federal court only, reducing people’s access to the courts.
▪ Expands North Carolina’s policy for state employees to cover sexual orientation and gender identity. Attorney General Roy Cooper, who is running against McCrory for governor, previously said he would not defend a lawsuit against the bill because he is already representing two state departments — the treasurer’s office and his own office —that have their own discrimination policies. This provision appears to give all state employees the same protections as already exist in those two departments. Cooper has called for the law to be repealed.
▪ Reaffirms the new law’s requirement that gender-specific restrooms and locker rooms in government buildings and schools be maintained.
▪ Reaffirms the provision in the new law that gives businesses and local governments the right to establish non-discriminatory policies for their own employees.
▪ Reaffirms the law’s provision that allows the private sector to establish its own restroom and locker room policies.
It's getting real now. Porn site xhamster blocks NC users to protest anti-LGBT law.
"I feel this may well be a turning point. It's one thing to lose a 12-minute version of 'Sherry Darling,' or the first-round of the 2072 NCAA Men's Division I basketball tournament. But when the state legislature finds itself besieged by hundreds of angry, blue-balled, hairy-palmed, half-blind preachers, that's when you'll really see things move. Venceremos, my comrades!"
posted by homunculus at 3:02 PM on April 12, 2016
"I feel this may well be a turning point. It's one thing to lose a 12-minute version of 'Sherry Darling,' or the first-round of the 2072 NCAA Men's Division I basketball tournament. But when the state legislature finds itself besieged by hundreds of angry, blue-balled, hairy-palmed, half-blind preachers, that's when you'll really see things move. Venceremos, my comrades!"
posted by homunculus at 3:02 PM on April 12, 2016
Against Me will play a previously scheduled show as a protest against HB2.
posted by Etrigan at 10:01 AM on April 14, 2016
posted by Etrigan at 10:01 AM on April 14, 2016
The Gavin Grimm case just came back with a ruling from the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals.
HELL YEAH!
Now we can say for sure that Title IX money is at risk in NC due to this odious law.
posted by Stewriffic at 11:18 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
HELL YEAH!
Now we can say for sure that Title IX money is at risk in NC due to this odious law.
posted by Stewriffic at 11:18 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
As Anti-LGBT Laws Sweep U.S., How Did GOP-Led Utah Pass a Landmark Nondiscrimination Bill?
posted by homunculus at 2:47 PM on April 19, 2016
posted by homunculus at 2:47 PM on April 19, 2016
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posted by echocollate at 12:50 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]