In the reign of Edmund Ironside
May 17, 2016 6:38 PM Subscribe
Pop quiz, hotshot. The last King of England who went by the name of Edward was Edward VIII (1936). So, how many King Edwards has England had?
Ha. Fooled you. It's eleven.
Ha. Fooled you. It's eleven.
Well, I can see why they keep omitting Edward π, the man was totally irrational. I suppose Edward 0 didn't amount to anything, and the 'legendary' Edward i was purely imaginary.
posted by hangashore at 7:04 PM on May 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 7:04 PM on May 17, 2016 [14 favorites]
This has something to do with the fact that dynasties didn't map to nations until they were forced to in the 1800s, doesn't it? Plantagenet and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and all that...
posted by clawsoon at 7:07 PM on May 17, 2016
posted by clawsoon at 7:07 PM on May 17, 2016
Tudors. He basically says it: Tudors. That's when the numbers started. He makes this seem like a complicated division by pointing out that there's been some retroactive numbering of certain pre-Tudor Kings, but it's mostly the Tudor thing, I think.
posted by koeselitz at 7:23 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 7:23 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not surprised that the Edwards avoided regnal numbering for as long as possible. Once assigned, your days are Number Ed.
posted by zamboni at 7:28 PM on May 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 7:28 PM on May 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
Edward royalty® - Our monarchy goes to eleven!
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:30 PM on May 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:30 PM on May 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Do you know how many Edwards there are in English history?"
"Uh, yes sir. Uh, eight ... uh, no sir. I never really studied that up."
"Eleven."
"Eleven. It's not even funny."
"That's how big they are."
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:38 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Uh, yes sir. Uh, eight ... uh, no sir. I never really studied that up."
"Eleven."
"Eleven. It's not even funny."
"That's how big they are."
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:38 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Habsburgs are good for this, too. They seemed to have an aversion to numbers higher than IV, unless your name was Charles, so there were multiple I-IV cycles for various Alberts and Fredericks and Rudolfs.
They ended, of course, with Charles I, just to mess with you.
posted by clawsoon at 7:49 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
They ended, of course, with Charles I, just to mess with you.
posted by clawsoon at 7:49 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
there were multiple I-IV cycles
So wait -- you're saying the Austrians invented the blues??
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:51 PM on May 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
So wait -- you're saying the Austrians invented the blues??
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:51 PM on May 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
Tudors. He basically says it: Tudors.
It's a crying shame they switched the current dynasty to "Windsor" instead of "Threedor."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:28 PM on May 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's a crying shame they switched the current dynasty to "Windsor" instead of "Threedor."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:28 PM on May 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
I can only read the post title in the tune of "In the Year 2525"
In the reign of Edmund Ironside, if man is still inside,
If woman can survive, maybe they'll find
In the reign of Torvald Lemonshrive...
It's a silly song really.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:33 PM on May 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
In the reign of Edmund Ironside, if man is still inside,
If woman can survive, maybe they'll find
In the reign of Torvald Lemonshrive...
It's a silly song really.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:33 PM on May 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm just assuming Torvald Lemonshrive was a good Anglo Saxon king name. Shit, I'd follow that guy.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:35 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:35 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
If the house of Fordor ever staged a revolution, it wouldn't be a coup - it would be a sedan.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:35 PM on May 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:35 PM on May 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
Eight Edwards and three Eadweards, actually.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:39 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 8:39 PM on May 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
#KeepEdwardEadweard
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:35 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:35 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Eight Edwards and three Eadweards, actually.
Oh god don't get me started on the Æadwæards
posted by hangashore at 10:11 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh god don't get me started on the Æadwæards
posted by hangashore at 10:11 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
From the "Me and My Monarch" series, part of their Monarchy Week. I thought Wentworthism and Athelstan were interesting too.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:55 PM on May 17, 2016
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:55 PM on May 17, 2016
This has something to do with the fact that dynasties didn't map to nations until they were forced to in the 1800s, doesn't it?
Not really. The title "King of England" was a single title over roughly the same chunk of land for the period in question--remarkably stable in some ways. (Even when "England" owned Aquitaine it was still part of France.) I originally assumed there was some legal mumbo jumbo, but as the article points out the unnumbered Edward the Confessor definitely had the same title as William the Conqueror. William went to great lengths to show it was legally his (and thus a continuation of the same entity), and so did every other king down through Edward "the First" even though there were at least three dynasties involved.
The numbers, at least now, officially attach to the title and not the dynasty. So Charles V was actually Charles I, II, III or V depending on whether he was in Spain, Burgundy, Germany, etc.
posted by mark k at 11:20 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not really. The title "King of England" was a single title over roughly the same chunk of land for the period in question--remarkably stable in some ways. (Even when "England" owned Aquitaine it was still part of France.) I originally assumed there was some legal mumbo jumbo, but as the article points out the unnumbered Edward the Confessor definitely had the same title as William the Conqueror. William went to great lengths to show it was legally his (and thus a continuation of the same entity), and so did every other king down through Edward "the First" even though there were at least three dynasties involved.
The numbers, at least now, officially attach to the title and not the dynasty. So Charles V was actually Charles I, II, III or V depending on whether he was in Spain, Burgundy, Germany, etc.
posted by mark k at 11:20 PM on May 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, Scotland is today ruled by Elizabeth II (1952-), despite the fact she's the only Queen Elizabeth it's ever actually had.
Some Scots would disagree. In 1952 the Post Office installed the first Scottish post box with the 'E II R' insignia. It didn't go well.
The House of Commons debate on this subject is comedy gold:
Mr. Gower: Can the Prime Minister state what course will be followed if a future British monarch should bear the name Llewellyn?
The Prime Minister: I hope I may ask for long notice of that question.
Mr. Ross: Will the Prime Minister tell us why he decided on 1066 as the starting date for this? Was it to get out of the difficulty of the fact that the first King Edward is not known as Edward I, but as Edward the Confessor?
The Prime Minister: As the great scroll of history unfolds many complicated incidents occur which it is difficult to introduce effectively into the pattern of the likes and dislikes of the epoch in which we live.
posted by verstegan at 11:40 PM on May 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
Some Scots would disagree. In 1952 the Post Office installed the first Scottish post box with the 'E II R' insignia. It didn't go well.
The House of Commons debate on this subject is comedy gold:
Mr. Gower: Can the Prime Minister state what course will be followed if a future British monarch should bear the name Llewellyn?
The Prime Minister: I hope I may ask for long notice of that question.
Mr. Ross: Will the Prime Minister tell us why he decided on 1066 as the starting date for this? Was it to get out of the difficulty of the fact that the first King Edward is not known as Edward I, but as Edward the Confessor?
The Prime Minister: As the great scroll of history unfolds many complicated incidents occur which it is difficult to introduce effectively into the pattern of the likes and dislikes of the epoch in which we live.
posted by verstegan at 11:40 PM on May 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
It must be a bit humbling to be labelled 1st. Here you are, bearer of a unique name, and they've already got you slotted into a series. At least Edward 8th could bask in the possibility that he was the final Edward, the Edward to beat all Edwards.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:54 PM on May 17, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:54 PM on May 17, 2016
> Can the Prime Minister state what course will be followed if a future British monarch should bear the name Llewellyn?
Is that a reference to the practice of referring to Llywelyn ap Gruffudd as ‘Llywelyn the Last,’ I wonder? Who might have to be renamed ‘Llywelyn the Last-but-one’ in that eventuality…
posted by misteraitch at 1:13 AM on May 18, 2016
Is that a reference to the practice of referring to Llywelyn ap Gruffudd as ‘Llywelyn the Last,’ I wonder? Who might have to be renamed ‘Llywelyn the Last-but-one’ in that eventuality…
posted by misteraitch at 1:13 AM on May 18, 2016
Meanwhile, Scotland is today ruled by Elizabeth II (1952-), despite the fact she's the only Queen Elizabeth it's ever actually had. Scotland never had a Queen Elizabeth I, a monarch whose main achievement in Scotland was to imprison and execute its actual queen, in the form of her cousin Mary. (Nice girl.)
Well, for Elizabeth herself, her main achievement was to imprison and not execute. The whole head-cutting-off being driven by other actors. Of course, her government's main achievement was to secure Scotland for Protestantism and undo French influence.
posted by Emma May Smith at 3:21 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, for Elizabeth herself, her main achievement was to imprison and not execute. The whole head-cutting-off being driven by other actors. Of course, her government's main achievement was to secure Scotland for Protestantism and undo French influence.
posted by Emma May Smith at 3:21 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
During the lifetime of the first monarch to bear a certain name, are they called King Foo I or simply King Foo, with the "I" added in retrospect if there is a second Foo later?
posted by Pater Aletheias at 3:34 AM on May 18, 2016
posted by Pater Aletheias at 3:34 AM on May 18, 2016
Pater Aletheias: it’s the latter, and not only during their lifetime. Unless there’s a Queen Victoria II at some point, Alexandrina Victoria of the House of Hanover will be referred to as Queen Victoria, not Queen Victoria I.
posted by misteraitch at 3:52 AM on May 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by misteraitch at 3:52 AM on May 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you're the first King Foo I think they go with "His Grace, Foo of House Bar, First of His Name, King of the Angles and the Saxons, Lord of the United Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm."
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:23 AM on May 18, 2016
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:23 AM on May 18, 2016
It must be a bit humbling to be labelled 1st.
I would think it's the other way around. Once you are the first something, you will always be #1. Think about MetaFilter; no matter how great Jessamyn, Cortex, PB, and all the others who keep/have kept the site running well are, there is still only one #1.
posted by TedW at 5:59 AM on May 18, 2016
I would think it's the other way around. Once you are the first something, you will always be #1. Think about MetaFilter; no matter how great Jessamyn, Cortex, PB, and all the others who keep/have kept the site running well are, there is still only one #1.
posted by TedW at 5:59 AM on May 18, 2016
I deny everything.
posted by Eleven at 6:01 AM on May 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Eleven at 6:01 AM on May 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
TedW, this is true, although there has been a persistent campaign to redesignate that position.
On a more serious note, I'm sad that he didn't mention my favorite King, Henry FitzEmpress when talking about names. (Henry II if you're going to be boring about it.)
posted by Hactar at 7:57 AM on May 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
On a more serious note, I'm sad that he didn't mention my favorite King, Henry FitzEmpress when talking about names. (Henry II if you're going to be boring about it.)
posted by Hactar at 7:57 AM on May 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
her government's main achievement was to secure Scotland for Protestantism and undo French influence.
Huh? If that was her goal, it might've been prudent to squirt out an heir or two. Instead, the crown went to James VI of Scotland, son of Mary, Queen of Scots, so a whole lot of good killing her did. James's son, Charles I, married the Catholic daughter of Henry IV of France.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Getting the French Catholic influence out of Scotland took an axe, some wars, an Act of Union, an Act of Settlement, and some more wars, really had much more to do with a certain Dutch Calvinist elbowing his way to the throne than anything else, and ultimately culminated with the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland being handed to Lutheran Germans. Yay?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:55 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Huh? If that was her goal, it might've been prudent to squirt out an heir or two. Instead, the crown went to James VI of Scotland, son of Mary, Queen of Scots, so a whole lot of good killing her did. James's son, Charles I, married the Catholic daughter of Henry IV of France.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Getting the French Catholic influence out of Scotland took an axe, some wars, an Act of Union, an Act of Settlement, and some more wars, really had much more to do with a certain Dutch Calvinist elbowing his way to the throne than anything else, and ultimately culminated with the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland being handed to Lutheran Germans. Yay?
posted by Sys Rq at 9:55 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Joe in Australia: "At least Edward 8th could bask in the possibility that he was the final Edward, the Edward to beat all Edwards."
Unlike hockey jerseys I'm not sure having your name retired is something most rulers are going to aspire to.
posted by Mitheral at 9:59 AM on May 18, 2016
Unlike hockey jerseys I'm not sure having your name retired is something most rulers are going to aspire to.
posted by Mitheral at 9:59 AM on May 18, 2016
The number XVII was reserved, rather pathetically, for the former King Louis's young son, who nominally ruled from a revolutionary prison cell for two and a half years before dying of scrofula.
Before WHAT, excuse me? That sounds like an illness Dr. Seuss made up.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:04 AM on May 18, 2016
Before WHAT, excuse me? That sounds like an illness Dr. Seuss made up.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:04 AM on May 18, 2016
Mr.Encyclopedia: "If you're the first King Foo I think they go with "His Grace, Foo of House Bar, First of His Name, King of the Angles and the Saxons, Lord of the United Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.""
That's not quite right. E2's title is: Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
"Your Grace" as a style for the monarch went out with Henry VIII (and for Scotland, with the Act of Union 1707) - it's how you address non-royal dukes/duchesses and archbishops. The monarch is addressed as "Your Majesty."
posted by Chrysostom at 10:20 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's not quite right. E2's title is: Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
"Your Grace" as a style for the monarch went out with Henry VIII (and for Scotland, with the Act of Union 1707) - it's how you address non-royal dukes/duchesses and archbishops. The monarch is addressed as "Your Majesty."
posted by Chrysostom at 10:20 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
And, ironically, the King's Touch reportedly cured scrofula, aka the King's Evil.
posted by the sobsister at 10:48 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the sobsister at 10:48 AM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
My favorite name was always Charles the Fat, poor guy.
posted by Melismata at 12:07 PM on May 27, 2016
posted by Melismata at 12:07 PM on May 27, 2016
Well, at least according to Wikipedia, he wasn't called that during his lifetime, so it probably didn't bug him.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:43 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 1:43 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, but according to the same Wikipedia he was "lethargic and inept," and lost a lot of battles.
posted by Melismata at 8:50 AM on May 31, 2016
posted by Melismata at 8:50 AM on May 31, 2016
My favorite name was always Charles the Fat, poor guy.
The Brits seem to have less of a problem with "fat". The first hundred or so times I heard "the fat controller" in the UK versions of Thomas the Tank Engine, I assumed it must be "the F.A.T. Controller", a harmless acronym of some kind. But, no, it's that he's fat. There's also a "thin controller".
The American versions always call him "Sir Topham Hatt". No "fat controller" on this side of the pond, no sir!
posted by clawsoon at 9:35 AM on May 31, 2016
The Brits seem to have less of a problem with "fat". The first hundred or so times I heard "the fat controller" in the UK versions of Thomas the Tank Engine, I assumed it must be "the F.A.T. Controller", a harmless acronym of some kind. But, no, it's that he's fat. There's also a "thin controller".
The American versions always call him "Sir Topham Hatt". No "fat controller" on this side of the pond, no sir!
posted by clawsoon at 9:35 AM on May 31, 2016
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