"I've forgiven that little girl for being so frightened"
May 26, 2017 8:09 PM Subscribe
Julia. "In grade 8, Julia was bullied so badly by a group of girls that she changed schools without telling anyone. Soon after, the girls from her old school showed up at her house and rang her doorbell. She didn’t answer it. For the past 20 years, Julia’s been wondering what those girls wanted."
Jonathan Goldstein's Heavyweight podcast explores real-life regrets and alternate endings in people's lives. Goldstein is known for his Wiretap comedy radio show, that ran for 11 years on CBC Radio.
Jonathan Goldstein's Heavyweight podcast explores real-life regrets and alternate endings in people's lives. Goldstein is known for his Wiretap comedy radio show, that ran for 11 years on CBC Radio.
Mod note: Transcript derail (and derail of the derail) deleted. If someone has a link to a transcript go ahead and post; if you want advice for finding a voice to text app, Ask Metafilter would be a better place to ask.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:41 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:41 PM on May 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
I participated in group bullying. There's really nothing I can do about it now, except perhaps tell you what it was like from the inside. I was so alone. My dad had just died and my aunt adopted me and took me to live with her. I didn't know anyone. I only met my aunt at the funeral, now I was living with her, hundreds of miles from my old friends who I never even said goodbye to.
At the new school she took me to there was this hill. We weren't allowed to play on it because it was dangerously steep. It was grassy and fun to roll down, but very difficult to climb back up. A bunch of us were doing this, rolling down the hill and climbing back up, and one kid needed help. Someone reached out a hand for him, and pulled it away when he reached for it, so he slipped back down to the bottom of the hill. We all laughed. That was a joke, this time we'll help. The next time it was even funnier to us. 'Us' is the important part I want you to understand. I didn't feel alone, I was laughing for the first time since my dad died. I wasn't crying like that kid at the bottom of the hill. After all, I'd been crying because I was orphaned, he's just at the bottom of a hill. And I'm up here with my friends.
Since we're talking about bullying, at a different school someone decided to make a super hilarious joke about orphans. It was like a sneeze, or a hiccup. A full body convulsion you can't control. In an instant they were on the ground and bleeding. Everyone saw what happened, everyone was horrified by the violence of it. It became understood in the playground, the penalty for making fun of the orphan kid is immediate and brutal. It never happened again.
I guess I've seen both sides.
I'm sorry.
posted by adept256 at 12:54 AM on May 27, 2017 [52 favorites]
At the new school she took me to there was this hill. We weren't allowed to play on it because it was dangerously steep. It was grassy and fun to roll down, but very difficult to climb back up. A bunch of us were doing this, rolling down the hill and climbing back up, and one kid needed help. Someone reached out a hand for him, and pulled it away when he reached for it, so he slipped back down to the bottom of the hill. We all laughed. That was a joke, this time we'll help. The next time it was even funnier to us. 'Us' is the important part I want you to understand. I didn't feel alone, I was laughing for the first time since my dad died. I wasn't crying like that kid at the bottom of the hill. After all, I'd been crying because I was orphaned, he's just at the bottom of a hill. And I'm up here with my friends.
Since we're talking about bullying, at a different school someone decided to make a super hilarious joke about orphans. It was like a sneeze, or a hiccup. A full body convulsion you can't control. In an instant they were on the ground and bleeding. Everyone saw what happened, everyone was horrified by the violence of it. It became understood in the playground, the penalty for making fun of the orphan kid is immediate and brutal. It never happened again.
I guess I've seen both sides.
I'm sorry.
posted by adept256 at 12:54 AM on May 27, 2017 [52 favorites]
....adept, I have nothing but sympathy for the pain you felt from your family situation as a child. My only quibble is with your claim that you have seen "both sides" of the gang bullying scene.
Because one instance of being the butt of the joke, fighting back, and ending it there, is nothing like having the same gang of kids verbally harass you for six years - starting in second grade - for no reason other than that you like different things than they do. And the only tool any adult has given you to cope is advice to "ignore them," and when you've asked what "ignore" means they've said "pretend they're not there" - which you interpret as "don't let them see how upset you are and don't say anything and don't fight back."
Which means you have to sit there and take it when they hiss at you in class. In the locker room. When they poke you. When they snap your bra. When they poke at your genitals one time.
And that's also nothing like having the girl gang target you in 7th grade after gym class, chasing you out of the locker room trying to beat you up. And nothing like having the assistant principal, when he gets involved, finally handle it in exactly the wrong way by making you meet with each girl in his office and listening to them lie through their teeth about what they were doing, because there is a world of difference between the friendly "hey, c'mere, we wanna ask you something" they claim they were doing and the menacing "c'mere, we have a question for you" they were actually doing, so the principal brushes it off and implies that you've also had a hand in the whole thing all along and you need to be friendly to them too, this is partly your fault, you know.
It is good you regret what you did to that other kid that one time. But you really haven't seen what this kind of bullying actually does look like from the victim's side, I fear.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:00 AM on May 27, 2017 [98 favorites]
Because one instance of being the butt of the joke, fighting back, and ending it there, is nothing like having the same gang of kids verbally harass you for six years - starting in second grade - for no reason other than that you like different things than they do. And the only tool any adult has given you to cope is advice to "ignore them," and when you've asked what "ignore" means they've said "pretend they're not there" - which you interpret as "don't let them see how upset you are and don't say anything and don't fight back."
Which means you have to sit there and take it when they hiss at you in class. In the locker room. When they poke you. When they snap your bra. When they poke at your genitals one time.
And that's also nothing like having the girl gang target you in 7th grade after gym class, chasing you out of the locker room trying to beat you up. And nothing like having the assistant principal, when he gets involved, finally handle it in exactly the wrong way by making you meet with each girl in his office and listening to them lie through their teeth about what they were doing, because there is a world of difference between the friendly "hey, c'mere, we wanna ask you something" they claim they were doing and the menacing "c'mere, we have a question for you" they were actually doing, so the principal brushes it off and implies that you've also had a hand in the whole thing all along and you need to be friendly to them too, this is partly your fault, you know.
It is good you regret what you did to that other kid that one time. But you really haven't seen what this kind of bullying actually does look like from the victim's side, I fear.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:00 AM on May 27, 2017 [98 favorites]
If you are in the situation EmpressCallipygos describes, there is no way to achieve the immediate or the brutal, want it as you might. Everything is slippery and ineffective, you can't fight nearly well enough to lash out, you can't be sure of what your relationship is with anyone, because yeah, somehow the bullying is partly your fault and friends can be like quicksand when you are the victim du jour. And so you don't like yourself very much.
"It never happened again" is a fantasy to those people.
posted by deadwax at 3:11 AM on May 27, 2017 [25 favorites]
"It never happened again" is a fantasy to those people.
posted by deadwax at 3:11 AM on May 27, 2017 [25 favorites]
The inverse is also relevant - one time not helping someone get up from the bottom of a hill isn't the same kind of bullying as a sustained campaign of dehumanization.
posted by amtho at 3:27 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by amtho at 3:27 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
Empress is right, I didn't experience anything like Julia did. Or what she experienced. Isn't that the reason for this podcast though? I listened to it and I remembered what I did, and I heard how it must have felt. It's correct to point out that I was privileged in being able to fight back.
I made a really bad way of saying it was the exposure of bullying that stopped it for me. People heard the orphan joke. When he got out of hospital and came back to school, his parents made him apologize for what he said. People understood why I reacted the way I did once they heard the orphan joke.
The boy on the hill got the same treatment everywhere. From all of us. It wasn't isolated to that occasion.
posted by adept256 at 3:41 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
I made a really bad way of saying it was the exposure of bullying that stopped it for me. People heard the orphan joke. When he got out of hospital and came back to school, his parents made him apologize for what he said. People understood why I reacted the way I did once they heard the orphan joke.
The boy on the hill got the same treatment everywhere. From all of us. It wasn't isolated to that occasion.
posted by adept256 at 3:41 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
I don't know why, but my son and I both seem to be really susceptible to group bullying. He's had various cliques of friends that started harassing and picking on him mercilessly at several points in time, and at one point in pre-K, it reached such an extreme, a teacher caught three boys surrounding him and holding him and getting ready to beat him with a big tree branch they'd picked up. None of the other boys ever claimed he'd done anything wrong, and later, they became friendlier with each other again.
They just started attacking him over... Who knows? Same thing used to happen to me from time to time in school. Every once in a while, I'd just become the goat for a while. I'd never find out why. Then eventually it would pass and everybody'd leave me alone again and act like nothing had happened. It's a crazy, paranoid feeling, being caught up in the middle of one of those weird storms of gossip and innuendo and contempt that occasionally pass through crowds.
I always figured, as a kid, it was because of my weird family situation and having been kidnapped from Germany, and having come to America speaking German with all the adults making a fuss about how I'd been traumatized as a kid living in Germany and by the suddenness of my being assimilated into American culture.
With my son, it seems to be related to his reputation for being smart and friendly and having a tendency to stick up for social causes he believes in. I think his ADHD gets him stigmatized, too.
Either way, other kids eventually figure out he's easy going, and that temperamentally, he wants to please other people and be friends with everyone and then he goes along with most any treatment he gets from friends until it gets to be too painful, then he gets frustrated and starts acting out (at least, in the past; things have been going better for him lately, but these tendencies still pop back up as an issue from time to time. He's supposed to be seeing a counselor for that and other issues but we can't seem to afford it and haven't had the time/organizational ability since our divorce).
My own early experiences with group bullying are a big part of why I don't trust belonging to groups. There were times I found myself being caught up in the group dynamic, too, and later regretted having let myself go along (especially knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end).
I also saw several people get caught up in bizarre group social violence episodes that even the participants couldn't really explain after the fact, in one case leading to police involvement when random teens from all over the town I grew up in started a deliberate harassment campaign for fun against a musician I used to know.
The instigator in that case (who claimed to have nothing against his victim and played in bands with him, too) later told me he'd just been bored and started the whole thing as a lark, to fill a couple of otherwise dull nights out with friends, not realizing it would get so out of hand.
Never understood how people in those groups don't seem to notice their participation in them can influence them so powerfully and lead to such bizarre cruelties. It scares me how little it takes for the dynamic to take hold. Crowds can turn on you irrationally on a dime, and it's rarely possible to really trace out responsibility and make sense of what happened later. It's like a feedback effect.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:58 AM on May 27, 2017 [14 favorites]
They just started attacking him over... Who knows? Same thing used to happen to me from time to time in school. Every once in a while, I'd just become the goat for a while. I'd never find out why. Then eventually it would pass and everybody'd leave me alone again and act like nothing had happened. It's a crazy, paranoid feeling, being caught up in the middle of one of those weird storms of gossip and innuendo and contempt that occasionally pass through crowds.
I always figured, as a kid, it was because of my weird family situation and having been kidnapped from Germany, and having come to America speaking German with all the adults making a fuss about how I'd been traumatized as a kid living in Germany and by the suddenness of my being assimilated into American culture.
With my son, it seems to be related to his reputation for being smart and friendly and having a tendency to stick up for social causes he believes in. I think his ADHD gets him stigmatized, too.
Either way, other kids eventually figure out he's easy going, and that temperamentally, he wants to please other people and be friends with everyone and then he goes along with most any treatment he gets from friends until it gets to be too painful, then he gets frustrated and starts acting out (at least, in the past; things have been going better for him lately, but these tendencies still pop back up as an issue from time to time. He's supposed to be seeing a counselor for that and other issues but we can't seem to afford it and haven't had the time/organizational ability since our divorce).
My own early experiences with group bullying are a big part of why I don't trust belonging to groups. There were times I found myself being caught up in the group dynamic, too, and later regretted having let myself go along (especially knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end).
I also saw several people get caught up in bizarre group social violence episodes that even the participants couldn't really explain after the fact, in one case leading to police involvement when random teens from all over the town I grew up in started a deliberate harassment campaign for fun against a musician I used to know.
The instigator in that case (who claimed to have nothing against his victim and played in bands with him, too) later told me he'd just been bored and started the whole thing as a lark, to fill a couple of otherwise dull nights out with friends, not realizing it would get so out of hand.
Never understood how people in those groups don't seem to notice their participation in them can influence them so powerfully and lead to such bizarre cruelties. It scares me how little it takes for the dynamic to take hold. Crowds can turn on you irrationally on a dime, and it's rarely possible to really trace out responsibility and make sense of what happened later. It's like a feedback effect.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:58 AM on May 27, 2017 [14 favorites]
Gotta agree with EmpressC: one instance of bullying, no matter how awful it was, isn't in any way equivalent to sustained, ongoing bullying.
I grew up in a military family, which means we moved a lot --- in the thirteen years between kindergarten and high school, I went to fifteen different schools. That means I was always 'the new kid in class', and let me tell you: that's one of the major reasons bullies will bully, in any school you come across. And yes, I got a lot of that "it's partly your own fault for not being friendlier" and "ignore it, they'll stop" (which is absolutely not true, it just makes them ramp it up to get a reaction, any reaction, out of their victim).
Bullies just enjoy causing pain; standing out in any way makes it easier to select a victim, but they don't need even that for an excuse.
posted by easily confused at 5:26 AM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
I grew up in a military family, which means we moved a lot --- in the thirteen years between kindergarten and high school, I went to fifteen different schools. That means I was always 'the new kid in class', and let me tell you: that's one of the major reasons bullies will bully, in any school you come across. And yes, I got a lot of that "it's partly your own fault for not being friendlier" and "ignore it, they'll stop" (which is absolutely not true, it just makes them ramp it up to get a reaction, any reaction, out of their victim).
Bullies just enjoy causing pain; standing out in any way makes it easier to select a victim, but they don't need even that for an excuse.
posted by easily confused at 5:26 AM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
I was a lot like Julia, in the way I put my grade/middle/high school experience behind me when I left my hometown after high school graduation. I don't respond to reunion requests and my contact with my most of my classmates is minimal, with a few exceptions.
I was a lot like that teacher, who came back to teach at the school which had been so much a part of my adolescence misery. I only stayed a couple of years, but I was internally compelled to prove to myself that I had moved past it.
Julia's description of all those girls showing up on her doorstep after she had left the school made me shudder and remember what it was like, in sixth grade, to be followed by a veritable pack of girls hell bent on making even recess miserable for me. How can you "just stay away" from the people making you miserable when they keep following you? And the teachers did not do a damn thing about it either. One of them yelled at me for complaining and told me to stop tattling.
I loved that Sarah was straight out "no good would have come out of opening the door."
And how interesting that most of those girls admitted that it was a very toxic atmosphere that year. How sad that the school administration did nothing.
I switched schools too. It did not get any better, the bullying was just a different flavor. I think it would have been bad no matter which school I attended in that small town. I was just too different for the time and place I was living in.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:47 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
I was a lot like that teacher, who came back to teach at the school which had been so much a part of my adolescence misery. I only stayed a couple of years, but I was internally compelled to prove to myself that I had moved past it.
Julia's description of all those girls showing up on her doorstep after she had left the school made me shudder and remember what it was like, in sixth grade, to be followed by a veritable pack of girls hell bent on making even recess miserable for me. How can you "just stay away" from the people making you miserable when they keep following you? And the teachers did not do a damn thing about it either. One of them yelled at me for complaining and told me to stop tattling.
I loved that Sarah was straight out "no good would have come out of opening the door."
And how interesting that most of those girls admitted that it was a very toxic atmosphere that year. How sad that the school administration did nothing.
I switched schools too. It did not get any better, the bullying was just a different flavor. I think it would have been bad no matter which school I attended in that small town. I was just too different for the time and place I was living in.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:47 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
There's the physical scars and there are also the psychological and emotional ones.
I was always short growing up and I made up for that by being a bit of a wise-ass. Humour is a defense mechanism.
To this day, if someone gets near me, like if they're reaching across me or they move their hand too quickly and they're inside of my personal space, I flinch. I cannot help it. I'm 36 years old and I flinch when someone has their hand or shoulder near my face, I cannot help it. A few co-workers made a light joke about how sensitive I was. I just shrugged it off. It's something that's sort of built into my system now.
I'll be clicking on that podcast a bit later, not sure I'm ready for it this early in the morning and now I have a bit of a headache, so I'm off to go for a run. But I just wanted to share that here. Thank you for listening.
posted by Fizz at 6:02 AM on May 27, 2017 [16 favorites]
I was always short growing up and I made up for that by being a bit of a wise-ass. Humour is a defense mechanism.
"If I get them to laugh with me, then maybe they won't laugh at me, and then they'll be less likely to hurt me."Despite this, I frequently was pushed when walking down hallways, shoved against lockers, had my glasses taken away from me and then given back to me bent or broken, etc. I don't have any specific stories or incidents that standout in my mind. Just a ton of these slightly physical brush-ups and microaggressions that have built up my brain.
To this day, if someone gets near me, like if they're reaching across me or they move their hand too quickly and they're inside of my personal space, I flinch. I cannot help it. I'm 36 years old and I flinch when someone has their hand or shoulder near my face, I cannot help it. A few co-workers made a light joke about how sensitive I was. I just shrugged it off. It's something that's sort of built into my system now.
I'll be clicking on that podcast a bit later, not sure I'm ready for it this early in the morning and now I have a bit of a headache, so I'm off to go for a run. But I just wanted to share that here. Thank you for listening.
posted by Fizz at 6:02 AM on May 27, 2017 [16 favorites]
Like Fizz, I have scars too. My own grade school bullies weapon of choice was to praise me in overly sarcastic voices - "you're SOOOOOO smart, EC. I like you SOOOOO much. You're my BEST FRIEND."
And so now I have a hard time trusting any genuine praise.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:12 AM on May 27, 2017 [18 favorites]
And so now I have a hard time trusting any genuine praise.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:12 AM on May 27, 2017 [18 favorites]
I was bullied in 5th through 7th grade by Meangirl and Henchgirl. In 7th grade I somehow learned that Meangirl's parents were getting divorced and Henchgirl was in psychotherapy. I pitied them a little. But they were still assholes.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:31 AM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 6:31 AM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
I was bullied in school too, and took over 20 years to get my self-esteem back. But I found this podcast superficial and unsatisfying. I like podcasts to tell me something I don't know.
For what it's worth, I bet the girls at her door were going to pretend to want to be friends again, convince her to hang out and then do something truly horrible.
posted by Perodicticus potto at 6:46 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
For what it's worth, I bet the girls at her door were going to pretend to want to be friends again, convince her to hang out and then do something truly horrible.
posted by Perodicticus potto at 6:46 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
Another group bullying victim here. Bullying has been a recurring theme in my life, even into adulthood, but nothing quite like my childhood experience where I was literally cast out as having the "Richard Disease" by my elementary school peers. People would literally run away from me and refused to stand near me, until the morning bell rang.
This went on for years.
It made the physical bullying at my summer day-camp seem positively pleasant by comparison. At least there, I could fight back. (And did, one summer, when the most vicious of the bullies stole a video game magazine I'd lent to my one friend there.)
The worst part, though, was the blame. Teachers, counselors, and other adults (thank fuck not my parents) pinned the blame for my bullying on me.
Fuck.
That.
posted by SansPoint at 7:22 AM on May 27, 2017 [19 favorites]
This went on for years.
It made the physical bullying at my summer day-camp seem positively pleasant by comparison. At least there, I could fight back. (And did, one summer, when the most vicious of the bullies stole a video game magazine I'd lent to my one friend there.)
The worst part, though, was the blame. Teachers, counselors, and other adults (thank fuck not my parents) pinned the blame for my bullying on me.
Fuck.
That.
posted by SansPoint at 7:22 AM on May 27, 2017 [19 favorites]
This isn't me thinking I was redeemed.
I overcame my bullies by being the bully. I didn't fight back for years, even getting suspended because I got beat up (participant they said). Even after moving in with my dad to go to a new school in a different town, didn't stop. It wasn't until the end of freshman year during finals, a kid named Chris took my SONY Discman out of my backpack. The thought of losing the most expensive gift I had ever gotten broke me. After the test was over I grabbed Chris and slammed him into the wall as hard as I could and made him give it back.
From that point on I used the gossip around that to change my image to others. I was all of a sudden an enforcer. The cool kids wanted to hang out with me and it made me so excited. It made me so stupid. I spent 3 years after that getting into trouble and treating people the way I was treated. I was practically a pro because I had been on the receiving end for so long. It wasn't until my Grandfather gave me an ultimatum of jail or the ARMY that I had no choice but to change.
These days most people I meet tell me how nice I am. My Grandmother calls me her angel. I always say, "you don't know me at all."
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:30 AM on May 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
I overcame my bullies by being the bully. I didn't fight back for years, even getting suspended because I got beat up (participant they said). Even after moving in with my dad to go to a new school in a different town, didn't stop. It wasn't until the end of freshman year during finals, a kid named Chris took my SONY Discman out of my backpack. The thought of losing the most expensive gift I had ever gotten broke me. After the test was over I grabbed Chris and slammed him into the wall as hard as I could and made him give it back.
From that point on I used the gossip around that to change my image to others. I was all of a sudden an enforcer. The cool kids wanted to hang out with me and it made me so excited. It made me so stupid. I spent 3 years after that getting into trouble and treating people the way I was treated. I was practically a pro because I had been on the receiving end for so long. It wasn't until my Grandfather gave me an ultimatum of jail or the ARMY that I had no choice but to change.
These days most people I meet tell me how nice I am. My Grandmother calls me her angel. I always say, "you don't know me at all."
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:30 AM on May 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
Until I was about 11 or 12 or so, all anybody needed to do to hurt me was insult my mom. I missed her so much after my kidnapping, I was extremely easy to upset over it and other kids thought that was hilarious.
The worst stretch was when I became an outspoken Ghandian pacifist in sixth grade and word got around school I believed in nonviolence. I might as well have painted a target on my back: every bully on the school bus would take turns hitting me in the back of the head until I got upset enough to have an outburst.
It didn't matter how much I ignored it or kept my cool, once they started, there was no way to make it stop until I got in trouble for cursing and reacting angrily. By the time I couldn't restrain myself anymore, of course, I always made myself very visible to the bus driver in the process; they never noticed all the subtle little ways lots of kids were needling me to lead me up to the reaction. And none of those actions were individually egregious enough to justify harsh punishment or correction. The kids were super adept at deflecting any personal, individual responsibility, never crossing any bright lines individually, but collectively, making life unbearable in small ways.
It's terrifying because there's no one person you can necessarily blame a lot of times, or even if there is, they can't be blamed entirely because really, it's a collective responsibility problem, not an individual responsibility problem, but increasingly, even adults don't understand that's actually a thing.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:43 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
The worst stretch was when I became an outspoken Ghandian pacifist in sixth grade and word got around school I believed in nonviolence. I might as well have painted a target on my back: every bully on the school bus would take turns hitting me in the back of the head until I got upset enough to have an outburst.
It didn't matter how much I ignored it or kept my cool, once they started, there was no way to make it stop until I got in trouble for cursing and reacting angrily. By the time I couldn't restrain myself anymore, of course, I always made myself very visible to the bus driver in the process; they never noticed all the subtle little ways lots of kids were needling me to lead me up to the reaction. And none of those actions were individually egregious enough to justify harsh punishment or correction. The kids were super adept at deflecting any personal, individual responsibility, never crossing any bright lines individually, but collectively, making life unbearable in small ways.
It's terrifying because there's no one person you can necessarily blame a lot of times, or even if there is, they can't be blamed entirely because really, it's a collective responsibility problem, not an individual responsibility problem, but increasingly, even adults don't understand that's actually a thing.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:43 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
I was bullied. It was really bad and went on from when I was about seven to when I left for college. I get tired even thinking of rehearsing all the things that happened and all the adults who participated. My town was toxic - do you know those eighties teen movies where the town is like, farcically divided and status obsessed and the adults are evil? I didn't realize that was a movie exaggeration until recently, because that was my town. It was very, very eighties, very Cold War. I don't go back.
I keep in touch two people who are not family who I know from before college, and one of them is a friend of my parents.
Honestly, I don't care why people did it. I had better moral sense than they did, and one reason they picked on me was because I would not participate in bullying the mentally and physically disabled girl or the semi-homeless girl who didn't always shower, or the girl everyone said had had an abortion at 13. If I had participated in that, I might possibly not have been the lowest person on the ladder. Some of the people who bullied me persistently were the richest kids in town; some of them were themselves poor and marginalized. As I say, I don't care. I made the choice not to bully the few people I could have bullied to get myself out of the worst spot; the bullies made the choice to bully me. So fuck them, is what.
I'm sure that at least the rich kids are just the same, living in ugly big houses in the Chicago suburbs, being stupid and selfish and spawning horrible little golden children just like themselves, working as bankers to rook working Americans and generally being garbage people. They were rewarded for being garbage people when young, and I see no reason they've changed.
Any doors any of them ever want me to open - well, not while I have the power to hold them closed.
posted by Frowner at 7:47 AM on May 27, 2017 [25 favorites]
I keep in touch two people who are not family who I know from before college, and one of them is a friend of my parents.
Honestly, I don't care why people did it. I had better moral sense than they did, and one reason they picked on me was because I would not participate in bullying the mentally and physically disabled girl or the semi-homeless girl who didn't always shower, or the girl everyone said had had an abortion at 13. If I had participated in that, I might possibly not have been the lowest person on the ladder. Some of the people who bullied me persistently were the richest kids in town; some of them were themselves poor and marginalized. As I say, I don't care. I made the choice not to bully the few people I could have bullied to get myself out of the worst spot; the bullies made the choice to bully me. So fuck them, is what.
I'm sure that at least the rich kids are just the same, living in ugly big houses in the Chicago suburbs, being stupid and selfish and spawning horrible little golden children just like themselves, working as bankers to rook working Americans and generally being garbage people. They were rewarded for being garbage people when young, and I see no reason they've changed.
Any doors any of them ever want me to open - well, not while I have the power to hold them closed.
posted by Frowner at 7:47 AM on May 27, 2017 [25 favorites]
I was bullied by a group of kids in elementary school because overweight. One day I found a letter in my desk from one of the kids apologizing for their behavior. I thought "Well that's interesting, I hope it's sincere, but let's see how things go." It made no difference whatsoever. All of the kids kept on bullying as much as before.
I tend to be very skeptical of apologies. The best case scenario is that it takes a long time and a lot of work for people to change for the better. More likely, people do these things to make themselves feel better, although I really do hope that person was sincerely regretful and eventually would go on to use the regret for positive change. The world desperately needs fewer bullies.
posted by jazzbaby at 7:58 AM on May 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
I tend to be very skeptical of apologies. The best case scenario is that it takes a long time and a lot of work for people to change for the better. More likely, people do these things to make themselves feel better, although I really do hope that person was sincerely regretful and eventually would go on to use the regret for positive change. The world desperately needs fewer bullies.
posted by jazzbaby at 7:58 AM on May 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
I got a lot of flack for sticking up for the bullied kids, too. That's one of the other deadly playground sins. A couple of friends of mine and I tried to form a little gang to protect the weakest kids, but we were always outnumbered and ganged up on ourselves. When you're a boy in an American public school, you have to develop some tolerance for physical roughness because even most of your good, reliable friends will still occasionally physically hurt you under the rules of play--especially stuff like those games where you get punched on the arm for not breaking the circle or whatever. Lots of very casual aggression and physical violence from boys; lots of psychological and emotional abuse from girls, like the girl who used to trick me into giving her my popsicle every day at recess by saying she would be my girlfriend if I let her have it. I fell for that trick every damn time, even though I knew better, I wanted to believe she liked me anyway and was just using the popsicle as a pretext, lol. The other thing that was scary were restrooms: boys liked to come up behind you and push you while you were using the urinal to make you get piss all over yourself. It was awful. But with the boys, at least, it was usually just physical abuse. They weren't emotionally sophisticated enough to pull off the really hurtful emotionally manipulative stuff intentionally in elementary school, on an individual basis (usually).
posted by saulgoodman at 8:00 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 8:00 AM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Being the undiagnosed autistic girl [because at least the diagnosed kids had someone believe they needed help and were innocent] in my schools lead to group bullying nearly daily until I went to college. It took me 40 years to stop hating anyone that looked or acted like such kids. The common "solution" that many college kids(on Reddit e.g.) have to bullying is to beat the crap out of one or two of the people that lead the bullying, but being the lightest weight girl in my class, did not allow for even an attempt at such an endeavor. Being the victim pretty much constantly gave me a heart to fight the popular cruel sentiments that many people tend to acquire and to resist conformity for the sake of right causes rather than to look cool [this is what the idea behind the hate of SJWs and so-called "virtue signalers"? --that we are trying to build a cool reputation rather than actually caring about the causes you defend-- is that because the anti-SJWs can ONLY think of that as the reason to support such causes?]
posted by RuvaBlue at 8:33 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by RuvaBlue at 8:33 AM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
One day I found a letter in my desk from one of the kids apologizing for their behavior. I thought "Well that's interesting, I hope it's sincere, but let's see how things go." It made no difference whatsoever. All of the kids kept on bullying as much as before.
That's the impression that I got from the few bullies from my childhood who seemed at all regretful about their bullying; it wasn't that they felt anything like genuine shame or empathy or really wanted to change their ways. They simply didn't want to see themselves as bullies. There was always a rationalization, always a "we were just teasing and it, you know, got a little out of hand" or "you're just being oversensitive." Or, if some time has passed, they just deny it, that's not how they remember it; there was a This American Life story where a guy confronts a bully who threw him in the lake and the bully simply won't admit that it happened.
Holding onto a grudge is really no fun; it's an energy sink and as I get older and generally have less energy, there's a lot of other things that I'd rather spend that energy on. But my choosing to accept that I won't get satisfaction in any meaningful way does not automatically mean that that person is really OK.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:40 AM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
That's the impression that I got from the few bullies from my childhood who seemed at all regretful about their bullying; it wasn't that they felt anything like genuine shame or empathy or really wanted to change their ways. They simply didn't want to see themselves as bullies. There was always a rationalization, always a "we were just teasing and it, you know, got a little out of hand" or "you're just being oversensitive." Or, if some time has passed, they just deny it, that's not how they remember it; there was a This American Life story where a guy confronts a bully who threw him in the lake and the bully simply won't admit that it happened.
Holding onto a grudge is really no fun; it's an energy sink and as I get older and generally have less energy, there's a lot of other things that I'd rather spend that energy on. But my choosing to accept that I won't get satisfaction in any meaningful way does not automatically mean that that person is really OK.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:40 AM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
My only childhood sort-of bully happened in first grade. That basically ended when my sister, all of three grades ahead of us but not an inch bigger, teased him so bad he went home crying. His physical bluster evaporated. Never messed with me again. And he didn't stick around in my school long, so I have no idea what his home situation was like.
I didn't suffer any bullying again until I was 19 and I had joined the Coast Guard. Bullying, toxic masculinity, all that stuff. There was a ringleader (my immediate supervisor) and everything. But these were adults, right? Bullying is something that happens to kids, isn't it? Worse, there wasn't much I could do about it because there was a formal rank structure in place and a clear implication that anything I did would be seen in the worst possible light, because we had bad leadership right up to the captain of the ship.
Hell, I didn't even recognize it as such until years later when I was working on my teaching credential and the things I was being taught were all too close to what I dealt with in the Coast Guard to ignore.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:26 AM on May 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
I didn't suffer any bullying again until I was 19 and I had joined the Coast Guard. Bullying, toxic masculinity, all that stuff. There was a ringleader (my immediate supervisor) and everything. But these were adults, right? Bullying is something that happens to kids, isn't it? Worse, there wasn't much I could do about it because there was a formal rank structure in place and a clear implication that anything I did would be seen in the worst possible light, because we had bad leadership right up to the captain of the ship.
Hell, I didn't even recognize it as such until years later when I was working on my teaching credential and the things I was being taught were all too close to what I dealt with in the Coast Guard to ignore.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:26 AM on May 27, 2017 [8 favorites]
Another group bullying victim...in grades 7 and 8. It started with a kid giving me a mock friendly slap on the back, really hard. I didn't react, so another kid tried it. I still didn't react. A few days later it happened again but more kids joined in and it didn't take long until nearly the whole schoolyard was lining up regularly to do it. Not all were giving hard slaps but the bigger kids made sure everyone got their turn. Eventually it developed to the point where everybody had to get two turns, so they'd slap me and run around to join the back of the line. I don't believe that the teachers didn't see or didn't understand what what happening. They never put a stop to it or asked me about it.
I was petrified of heading into high school with the same group of guys. My mum had always been about trying to see things from the other person's point of view and learning to get along, so I finally told my dad about it in secret and he told me I'd have to fight back, even if I lost. At a charity sale on the last day of school year, one of the smallest bullies came up alone and slapped me on the back, so I bought a cupcake and when he came around to do it again, I jammed the cupcake in his face and started swinging at his head as he was staggering backwards. He couldn't get his balance and I followed him, nearly running the length of the gym, hitting him in the face every few feet. At the end of the gym, a big arm went around my neck and nearly lifted me off the floor. It was a kid from the special ed class who held me while his friend calmed me down. It all felt very surreal and cinematic.
I got some measure of revenge but the bullying left a very lasting mark in me. I just turned 54 and can see that it's coloured my entire life.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:35 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
I was petrified of heading into high school with the same group of guys. My mum had always been about trying to see things from the other person's point of view and learning to get along, so I finally told my dad about it in secret and he told me I'd have to fight back, even if I lost. At a charity sale on the last day of school year, one of the smallest bullies came up alone and slapped me on the back, so I bought a cupcake and when he came around to do it again, I jammed the cupcake in his face and started swinging at his head as he was staggering backwards. He couldn't get his balance and I followed him, nearly running the length of the gym, hitting him in the face every few feet. At the end of the gym, a big arm went around my neck and nearly lifted me off the floor. It was a kid from the special ed class who held me while his friend calmed me down. It all felt very surreal and cinematic.
I got some measure of revenge but the bullying left a very lasting mark in me. I just turned 54 and can see that it's coloured my entire life.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:35 AM on May 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
Sorry to hear about that scaryblackdeath. Workplace bullying when you're not in the management clique can be worse than the kind you get as a kid because it's so painful to realize nothing's really changed. And there are no authorities to turn to, really, that won't basically just write you off as a troublemaker if that's how your manager spins it. Had a manager once who deliberately tried to smear me as narcissistic and unwilling to take responsibility. A client actually warned me he'd been misrepresenting things, but all I could do was try to do the work well enough to not give him any excuses, even though he was actively sabotaging my work. You'd think a manager would be glad when a client wants to give you more work, but in that case, they refused to take the work saying the client wasn't worth the hassle, and then laid me off, claiming there was no more work for me.
It sucks, because I had thought dealing with bullying was finally behind me after college, and it had been years since anything like that happened. But it can get ugly even among so-called adults, and in those cases, the law can just as often be used as a tool of abuse as a source of protection and aid. Like the NCA held over my head as a constant threat for a few years during the worst of it. I just didn't have the heart to fight back anymore. When a colleague offered me a chance to testify in his case against the NCA, I couldn't see letting myself be dragged into court and making things even worse. I've got a bit of a court process phobia from when I was a kid, and it seemed like pushing it would just be opening up another avenue for more abuse and grief. I hoped to just move on, but that's been hard to do. I'm not exactly popular with managers anymore, even though I went out of my way to try to not keep being the squeaky wheel.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:51 AM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
It sucks, because I had thought dealing with bullying was finally behind me after college, and it had been years since anything like that happened. But it can get ugly even among so-called adults, and in those cases, the law can just as often be used as a tool of abuse as a source of protection and aid. Like the NCA held over my head as a constant threat for a few years during the worst of it. I just didn't have the heart to fight back anymore. When a colleague offered me a chance to testify in his case against the NCA, I couldn't see letting myself be dragged into court and making things even worse. I've got a bit of a court process phobia from when I was a kid, and it seemed like pushing it would just be opening up another avenue for more abuse and grief. I hoped to just move on, but that's been hard to do. I'm not exactly popular with managers anymore, even though I went out of my way to try to not keep being the squeaky wheel.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:51 AM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
I was actually group bullied/stalked/harassed by a gang of women in their mid 30s relatively recently. They are mostly sad, small town individuals with nothing going on, so they pick a victim out of boredom. Classy stuff. I also have a history of this with girls dating back to...forever, mostly because I have no interest in being part of a group or being around women and have no problem showing it. It starts strangely enough (recently) with people wanting to be my friend, claiming to admire me, and then suddenly it turns to hatred when I don't reciprocate. I could have fought back as an adult but I think it ultimately made me question the lot I was hanging around with and my life choices, so I just fucked off rather than engaging. Attempting to talk about my plight with others involved being met with the same apologetic and victim blaming nonsense I received as a child and adolescent, so...human nature at its most violent doesn't change as we age and group think is some nightmarish shit. The more evolved the social brain it seems the more cruelly we behave toward those deemed outsiders, for reasons which, when questioned, we can't truly rationalize. That's fucked.
Luckily I am an intelligent enough to understand it and not care or internalize the whole ordeal but I was mostly concerned about the stalking and the potential for my property being damaged.
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:33 PM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
Luckily I am an intelligent enough to understand it and not care or internalize the whole ordeal but I was mostly concerned about the stalking and the potential for my property being damaged.
posted by Young Kullervo at 12:33 PM on May 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
I was bullied throughout elementary school. I was such an easy mark -- one of the only Asian kids (still can't watch certain scenes from Lady and the Tramp), whose parents came to a small town without social, cultural, or familial connections, a child who didn't understand and couldn't seem to learn any social rules and who cried at the drop of a hat. The first bullying I remember is the other kids in my class gathering around me to yell hurtful things as a contest to see who could make me cry first.
Both my parents and my teachers told me to "ignore them and they'll go away," and I took this so literally that I spent every lunch period and recess reading intently, maintaining a stony expression to pretend I couldn't hear my jeering classmates. But worse than the ways the other kids found to torment me was how I was the one who got in trouble for it -- for being targeted, for complaining to teachers, for attempting to retaliate or even just begging for it to stop. By second or third grade I stopped asking for help, resigned to the fact that involving any adults was really just inviting abuse from another quarter, and that there must have been something inherently wrong with me that made cruelty so inevitable and so satisfying.
It occurred to me recently that the language used to blame children for somehow inviting the bullying and then for reacting incorrectly is the same language used to blame women for somehow inviting assaults and microaggressions. I can draw a pretty straight line from child-Fish internalizing that she had attracted her peers' and teachers' meanness to adult-Fish blaming herself for enduring coercive sexual experiences, in both cases minimizing my own feelings to privilege those of the people I had provoked to hurt me.
I guess what I'm working up to saying is that maybe the anti-bullying stuff works now, but if it doesn't, know that every time you tell a child to stop being so sensitive, every time you promise that ignoring the bullies will make them go away, every time you ask them why they can't just be normal, what that child hears is that it is good and right and just for them to be hurt, and they will continue hearing that long after you stop saying it.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 12:37 PM on May 27, 2017 [27 favorites]
Both my parents and my teachers told me to "ignore them and they'll go away," and I took this so literally that I spent every lunch period and recess reading intently, maintaining a stony expression to pretend I couldn't hear my jeering classmates. But worse than the ways the other kids found to torment me was how I was the one who got in trouble for it -- for being targeted, for complaining to teachers, for attempting to retaliate or even just begging for it to stop. By second or third grade I stopped asking for help, resigned to the fact that involving any adults was really just inviting abuse from another quarter, and that there must have been something inherently wrong with me that made cruelty so inevitable and so satisfying.
It occurred to me recently that the language used to blame children for somehow inviting the bullying and then for reacting incorrectly is the same language used to blame women for somehow inviting assaults and microaggressions. I can draw a pretty straight line from child-Fish internalizing that she had attracted her peers' and teachers' meanness to adult-Fish blaming herself for enduring coercive sexual experiences, in both cases minimizing my own feelings to privilege those of the people I had provoked to hurt me.
I guess what I'm working up to saying is that maybe the anti-bullying stuff works now, but if it doesn't, know that every time you tell a child to stop being so sensitive, every time you promise that ignoring the bullies will make them go away, every time you ask them why they can't just be normal, what that child hears is that it is good and right and just for them to be hurt, and they will continue hearing that long after you stop saying it.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 12:37 PM on May 27, 2017 [27 favorites]
Workplace bullying when you're not in the management clique can be worse than the kind you get as a kid because it's so painful to realize nothing's really changed.
Yep, this is one of the most depressing life lessons I've had to realize. There are a whole lot of unhealthy people in the world, and that includes a whole lot of people who never grow out of this shit. Just because it's possible for someone to change for the better does not mean that they will.
posted by jazzbaby at 12:41 PM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
Yep, this is one of the most depressing life lessons I've had to realize. There are a whole lot of unhealthy people in the world, and that includes a whole lot of people who never grow out of this shit. Just because it's possible for someone to change for the better does not mean that they will.
posted by jazzbaby at 12:41 PM on May 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
As someone raised in a fucked-up household and who was also bullied extensively through middle and high school (think Footloose town on steroids), I was struck by something I read that said, If you were bullied at school, you were bullied at home. Their reasoning was that a kid who was raised to value themselves would stand up and not allow it to happen, and their parents would not allow it to continue as well.
I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone (what does?), but I am positive that my abusive parents shaped me into someone that was scared and jumpy and fearful enough to make it super fun to tease and harass me every single day. I know for a fact that some of my bullies were abused at home, and one was even criticized for not being enough like me; that doesn't excuse a damn thing. I do like figuring out why, so that helped me come to terms with my past demons. But the bullying I faced at school was nothing to the personality-negating gaslighting crap I faced at home.
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 2:16 PM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm sure it doesn't apply to everyone (what does?), but I am positive that my abusive parents shaped me into someone that was scared and jumpy and fearful enough to make it super fun to tease and harass me every single day. I know for a fact that some of my bullies were abused at home, and one was even criticized for not being enough like me; that doesn't excuse a damn thing. I do like figuring out why, so that helped me come to terms with my past demons. But the bullying I faced at school was nothing to the personality-negating gaslighting crap I faced at home.
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 2:16 PM on May 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
I was struck by something I read that said, If you were bullied at school, you were bullied at home
There have been studies looking into this idea and the results found this idea to be a complete myth. I was never bullied at home, though I was accidentally emotionally neglected by my mom at times when she was still a heroin addict and became unresponsive while fixing.
In my case, neglect and having my emotional needs neglected and ignored were more the issue. But I still can't trace a neat line between that stuff and all the bullying I've seen.
A lot of it was literally just bored kids getting simulation from messing with other kids and simply not caring their source of entertainment was a real human being, and not a puppet.
We have a sort of dual nature, I think. We're meat at a certain level, biological robots, but we're more than just meat and when we're not being manipulated by means of our involuntary stress and emotional responses, we're capable of a certain kind of real, if limited, personal agency and choice.
To intentionally destroy that fragile possibility of meaningful freedom and self determination using the kind of cheap manipulations bullies use is pathetic.
I think the key idea for me is that people given enough support and space, can make free choices, but everyone of us is also part biological puppet if someone who knows how to work the levers and who mistakenly thinks that knowledge makes them superior to other people comes along.
The truth is, to the extent any of us is a biological robot, all of us are, bullies especially so, since what drives them is just a blind hunger for simulation and the ego reassurance that they aren't robots, too, like those other lesser people they manipulate.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:54 PM on May 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
There have been studies looking into this idea and the results found this idea to be a complete myth. I was never bullied at home, though I was accidentally emotionally neglected by my mom at times when she was still a heroin addict and became unresponsive while fixing.
In my case, neglect and having my emotional needs neglected and ignored were more the issue. But I still can't trace a neat line between that stuff and all the bullying I've seen.
A lot of it was literally just bored kids getting simulation from messing with other kids and simply not caring their source of entertainment was a real human being, and not a puppet.
We have a sort of dual nature, I think. We're meat at a certain level, biological robots, but we're more than just meat and when we're not being manipulated by means of our involuntary stress and emotional responses, we're capable of a certain kind of real, if limited, personal agency and choice.
To intentionally destroy that fragile possibility of meaningful freedom and self determination using the kind of cheap manipulations bullies use is pathetic.
I think the key idea for me is that people given enough support and space, can make free choices, but everyone of us is also part biological puppet if someone who knows how to work the levers and who mistakenly thinks that knowledge makes them superior to other people comes along.
The truth is, to the extent any of us is a biological robot, all of us are, bullies especially so, since what drives them is just a blind hunger for simulation and the ego reassurance that they aren't robots, too, like those other lesser people they manipulate.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:54 PM on May 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oops. Spoke too soon. There have been new studies since the last ones I saw and evidently there might be some truth to that idea after all, although it definitely isn't a straight line. Ignore my last comment. Must have gotten ahold of some fake news in the past and not noticed.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:16 PM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 7:16 PM on May 27, 2017 [3 favorites]
I wrote a blog post about being bullied, but have not published it, because it's so . . . well, honest that it's almost threatening.
If I could find a way to say it anonymously, I'd publish it in a heartbeat.
posted by exlotuseater at 7:30 PM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
If I could find a way to say it anonymously, I'd publish it in a heartbeat.
posted by exlotuseater at 7:30 PM on May 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was bullied twice as a child, once by a gang of (largely) boys in a split class when I was nine; the other time when I was twelve, in seventh grade, by a gang of girls. Basically, I was plump, nerdy, high-achieving girl, with thick glasses and no fashion sense.
Basically, it taught me it wasn't safe to be myself, ever, and that other people could and would turn on you in a moments notice. And the adults in my life were absolutely no help. That was years ago, and I still find it difficult to trust others - and to allow myself to be fully visible.
I so hope that things have changed for kids now, but I worry that with social media, they are more vulnerable and targeted than ever. At least, I had the chance to get away and vanish into books for an evening.
posted by dancing_angel at 10:26 PM on May 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
Basically, it taught me it wasn't safe to be myself, ever, and that other people could and would turn on you in a moments notice. And the adults in my life were absolutely no help. That was years ago, and I still find it difficult to trust others - and to allow myself to be fully visible.
I so hope that things have changed for kids now, but I worry that with social media, they are more vulnerable and targeted than ever. At least, I had the chance to get away and vanish into books for an evening.
posted by dancing_angel at 10:26 PM on May 27, 2017 [6 favorites]
Are there any effective methods to cope with bullying out there? For bullied kids and bullied adults alike? Self defense classes specifically for bully victims?
posted by yoga at 7:18 AM on May 28, 2017
posted by yoga at 7:18 AM on May 28, 2017
Not to derail, but right now on a bigger scale, the US political system vaildates bullying at all ages.
What's the solution?
posted by yoga at 7:19 AM on May 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
What's the solution?
posted by yoga at 7:19 AM on May 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Learning is from the top down. The government of the US of A spends a whole lot on being able to be the biggest physical bully on this planet at this time. The economic weight of post WWII, Brenton Woods and the petrodollar allow for a less physical force to be applied - but it is still a force. What external larger force is gonna step in?
At a school bully level there IS a larger force that can step in. Documenting and getting things on the record makes a difference.
The only thing I've ever seen stop physical abuse at a school is when the the administration thinks they will have a bigger political problem from not ignoring the situation with the "they will get bored and go away/be the bigger person" canned response. When the vice principle says 'solve it yourself' and you do solve it via metal spikes the fist of bully impales itself on later the situation does get addressed by the school when it is mentioned 'the spiral of responses to solve it yourself can only worse' when the vice principle calls you in asking about why there is blood on your arm. The bullying and theft of $150 shoes suddenly is addressed once a derringer is introduced to the school ground a younger child later. And EVERY staffer seems to suddenly be aware of the potential of a ramped up response cycle such that your younger cousins pass though the system and one day get asked "hey, are you related to ...." and then their world improves WRT harassment.
Today's bullied have FAR better tools to document harassment via all the little recording devices being carried around. Digital footprints can be QUITE "fun" (for certain values of fu and n) to take to administrators and explain how "the rules" their job operate under don't seem compatible with the moving pictures and audio documentation. And it is amazing how much MORE responsive the admins are when a 3rd party is providing the documentation - so stopping bullying can be an effort others can participate in.
But the need for a more powerful party over the bully/administrator(s) is key.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:23 AM on May 28, 2017
At a school bully level there IS a larger force that can step in. Documenting and getting things on the record makes a difference.
The only thing I've ever seen stop physical abuse at a school is when the the administration thinks they will have a bigger political problem from not ignoring the situation with the "they will get bored and go away/be the bigger person" canned response. When the vice principle says 'solve it yourself' and you do solve it via metal spikes the fist of bully impales itself on later the situation does get addressed by the school when it is mentioned 'the spiral of responses to solve it yourself can only worse' when the vice principle calls you in asking about why there is blood on your arm. The bullying and theft of $150 shoes suddenly is addressed once a derringer is introduced to the school ground a younger child later. And EVERY staffer seems to suddenly be aware of the potential of a ramped up response cycle such that your younger cousins pass though the system and one day get asked "hey, are you related to ...." and then their world improves WRT harassment.
Today's bullied have FAR better tools to document harassment via all the little recording devices being carried around. Digital footprints can be QUITE "fun" (for certain values of fu and n) to take to administrators and explain how "the rules" their job operate under don't seem compatible with the moving pictures and audio documentation. And it is amazing how much MORE responsive the admins are when a 3rd party is providing the documentation - so stopping bullying can be an effort others can participate in.
But the need for a more powerful party over the bully/administrator(s) is key.
posted by rough ashlar at 7:23 AM on May 28, 2017
@knitcrazybooknut, I couldn't disagree with you more. I had a loving, nurturing home environment, taught to value intelligence and stand up for myself and was loved for the whole me, had my flaws accepted. No bullying at home at all.
My mom says she dreaded report card days because she knew I'd get bullied on the way home from school. I got beaten up, harassed, at one point was held in a full nelson while older kids waved a switchblade under my face. Nothing at home invited this.
I know you're trying to be helpful here, but you really need to revise this line of thinking.
posted by chinese_fashion at 11:13 AM on May 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
My mom says she dreaded report card days because she knew I'd get bullied on the way home from school. I got beaten up, harassed, at one point was held in a full nelson while older kids waved a switchblade under my face. Nothing at home invited this.
I know you're trying to be helpful here, but you really need to revise this line of thinking.
posted by chinese_fashion at 11:13 AM on May 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I always cringe when I hear any variations on the "you just need to stand up for yourself", "you just need to have more self esteem", "just ignore them" IMO standard victim blaming, problem avoiding responses to bullying. These responses are especially useless when you are dealing with a culture of bullying. The only way for an individual to deal with that is to get themselves out of the toxic culture. As adults, we have agency to get ourselves out of toxic work situations. It's impossible for a kid to leave a toxic school unless their parents are willing and able to switch them to a new school.
Ideally, teachers, administrators, and parents take bullying very seriously and are all working together to stop it from happening in their schools. If you were in one of those schools, bullying would never get to the point that it did in the podcast.
posted by jazzbaby at 3:41 PM on May 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ideally, teachers, administrators, and parents take bullying very seriously and are all working together to stop it from happening in their schools. If you were in one of those schools, bullying would never get to the point that it did in the podcast.
posted by jazzbaby at 3:41 PM on May 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
There are school programs that work to reduce bullying (and yep, I was bullied, too), but in order to be effective, they basically need to involve everyone from the principal to the lunch lady and they need to basically say "we value everyone" and not tolerate bullying when they see it. A school that values inclusivity, that doesn't let the teachers and lunch ladies and bus drivers simply stand by when it happens (or worse, participate, as often happens) can dramatically reduce bullying.
If you value an inclusive school climate that doesn't reject those who don't "fit" for whatever reason and you work actively to promote this as an important value in the school and the teachers and everyone else model kindness and empathy and inclusion (as much as possible), it can really help. You'll never completely eliminate it, but if you don't actively support it (many, many schools do in many ways— for example, valuing athletic wins above anything else and granting star athletes complete impunity), you can make a huge difference.
Also, schools that have this inclusive and warm climate not only have less bullying, they also have reductions in drug use, drug problems, disciplinary problems and improved academic performance.
posted by Maias at 3:17 PM on May 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
If you value an inclusive school climate that doesn't reject those who don't "fit" for whatever reason and you work actively to promote this as an important value in the school and the teachers and everyone else model kindness and empathy and inclusion (as much as possible), it can really help. You'll never completely eliminate it, but if you don't actively support it (many, many schools do in many ways— for example, valuing athletic wins above anything else and granting star athletes complete impunity), you can make a huge difference.
Also, schools that have this inclusive and warm climate not only have less bullying, they also have reductions in drug use, drug problems, disciplinary problems and improved academic performance.
posted by Maias at 3:17 PM on May 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
I always cringe when I hear any variations on the "you just need to stand up for yourself", "you just need to have more self esteem", "just ignore them" IMO standard victim blaming, problem avoiding responses to bullying. These responses are especially useless when you are dealing with a culture of bullying.
Oh my god, ^this. Especially exhortations to stand up for yourself. I was a pretty clueless kid, but even I grokked, based on the way my teachers didn't protect me and sometimes even joined in the fun, that adults accepted bullying as part of the natural order. The question was not whether bullying would occur but by and to whom. Defending myself -- whether verbally (by arguing with the bullies or just demanding they stop) or in kind (by retaliating with the same behaviors) -- was unacceptable, because I did not have the right to treat the bullies the way they treated me. My abuse was part of the natural order, and threats to that order were not tolerated.
There was a script, and my role was collateral damage. If I didn't make it, oh well. The school would make an announcement and bring in counselors and the bullies would profit from their cruelty one last time by crying crocodile tears to get a pass on some upcoming test. But nobody would really care, because certain kids -- kids like me -- are disposable.
Things may have changed in the intervening years, and I fervently hope programs like the ones Maias described take root in every school. But as yoga pointed out, America likes bullies. In November, a not insignificant proportion of my fellow citizens essentially voted for the right to make certain other people disposable. Bullying isn't a school problem or a workplace problem. It's a symptom of a larger cultural willingness to designate certain people as deserving to abuse and others as deserving of abuse.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 6:32 PM on May 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh my god, ^this. Especially exhortations to stand up for yourself. I was a pretty clueless kid, but even I grokked, based on the way my teachers didn't protect me and sometimes even joined in the fun, that adults accepted bullying as part of the natural order. The question was not whether bullying would occur but by and to whom. Defending myself -- whether verbally (by arguing with the bullies or just demanding they stop) or in kind (by retaliating with the same behaviors) -- was unacceptable, because I did not have the right to treat the bullies the way they treated me. My abuse was part of the natural order, and threats to that order were not tolerated.
There was a script, and my role was collateral damage. If I didn't make it, oh well. The school would make an announcement and bring in counselors and the bullies would profit from their cruelty one last time by crying crocodile tears to get a pass on some upcoming test. But nobody would really care, because certain kids -- kids like me -- are disposable.
Things may have changed in the intervening years, and I fervently hope programs like the ones Maias described take root in every school. But as yoga pointed out, America likes bullies. In November, a not insignificant proportion of my fellow citizens essentially voted for the right to make certain other people disposable. Bullying isn't a school problem or a workplace problem. It's a symptom of a larger cultural willingness to designate certain people as deserving to abuse and others as deserving of abuse.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 6:32 PM on May 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by retrograde at 10:10 PM on May 26, 2017