Really not kidding about the chapstick
September 4, 2017 6:17 AM Subscribe
What Is Toxic Masculinity? - Doctor Nerdlove - part of what makes toxic masculinity so damaging: it ignores and diminishes anyone who doesn’t fit that narrow range of “man”. The only measure of worth is pain; who causes it and who endures it. We worship the hero but we ignore the caregiver. We praise the person who rescues the endangered, but not the ones who give to the needy. We admire soldiers, but spare few thoughts for the people who make sure that those soldiers don’t need to go to war.
Yep, men's "traditional" roles suck... just as women's "traditional" roles suck.
Discussion and dialog are good things... I hope this thread works out better than some of the other ones.
posted by MikeWarot at 7:06 AM on September 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Discussion and dialog are good things... I hope this thread works out better than some of the other ones.
posted by MikeWarot at 7:06 AM on September 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
That original article isn't a good-faith refutation of toxic masculinity, it's just a pill for true believers to pass around and swallow. They swallow it and continue to believe what they want to believe, no logic required. It's the same as the "Trump loves God and God loves Trump" bullshit my parents share on Facebook.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:12 AM on September 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:12 AM on September 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
Topic-related video, "What Is Toxic Masculinity?," by Pop Culture Detective**.
** And I only learned two days ago here on MeFi that PCD is produced by Jonathan McIntosh, who also co-wrote and produced the first season of Feminist Frequency.
posted by mystyk at 7:14 AM on September 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
** And I only learned two days ago here on MeFi that PCD is produced by Jonathan McIntosh, who also co-wrote and produced the first season of Feminist Frequency.
posted by mystyk at 7:14 AM on September 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
The article in question is so myopic. It lauds a guy who was literally expected to kill himself for others' benefit and did so to fulfill the role foisted on him.
Yes that is toxic.
posted by FakeFreyja at 7:15 AM on September 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes that is toxic.
posted by FakeFreyja at 7:15 AM on September 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
mystyk: That video was a good frame for discussion.... thanks!
posted by MikeWarot at 7:27 AM on September 4, 2017
posted by MikeWarot at 7:27 AM on September 4, 2017
I think blaming men for not getting what toxic masculinity "well, actually" means is kinda silly when the term is thrown around in a manner that's clearly meant to shame men for having interests other than Gender Studies degrees. The author has no better response to a differing view than "Jeeze, triggered much?" Here's a definition that keeps the sneering to a minimum.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 7:39 AM on September 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Paddle to Sea at 7:39 AM on September 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
Another piece with useful framing: Patriarchy and toxic masculinity are dominating America under Trump (Salon interview with psychologist Terry Real). He thinks about psychological patriarchy as "three concentric rings, three processes. The first ring I call the Great Divide. It’s when you take the quality of your androgynous self — the qualities of one whole human being — and you draw a line down the center...three concentric rings, three processes. The second concentric ring is what I call the Dance of Contempt, and that is simply that these in traditional patriarchy, these two halves of masculine and feminine are not held as separate but equal. The masculine qualities are exalted. The feminine qualities are reviled. The essential nature, the dynamic between these two halves, is contempt: contempt for the feminine [my bold]...[and the third concentric ring is] whoever inhabits the feminine side of the equation has a deep compulsion to protect the disowned fragility of whoever is on the masculine side of the equation, even while being hurt by that person. Whoever is on the feminine side protects the masculine side from its own disowned fragility. You don’t speak truth to power. You protect the perpetrator. You protect power."
The political stuff is connected, of course, but Real's model is interesting in its own right.
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:41 AM on September 4, 2017 [20 favorites]
The political stuff is connected, of course, but Real's model is interesting in its own right.
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:41 AM on September 4, 2017 [20 favorites]
Found this excellent comic about toxic masculinity the other day after reading an excellent post about sandwiches.
posted by TheCoug at 7:54 AM on September 4, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by TheCoug at 7:54 AM on September 4, 2017 [24 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed. I'm not really sure we particularly need to have another conversation about toxic masculinity today, but if we're gonna have this thread let's skip super-duper ill-considered "what if it was Jew-splaining?" stuff as well as repetitions of one-note I, WHITE MAN, CONDEMN MYSELF stuff.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:17 AM on September 4, 2017 [29 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:17 AM on September 4, 2017 [29 favorites]
So what I could do personally when I encounter confusion about the definition of Toxic Masculinity is help provide clarity of what those two words are meant to define, and positive reinforcement for people who give examples of non-dysfunctional masculinity.
For example there was a fb post on my feed from someone who stated that the people of Houston were being rescued by us, the male civilian volunteers, and that anyone who writes off the male gender for Masculinity for being Toxic should be ashamed and is a leftist media sheeple.
Needless to say, since contemplative thought and polite discourse between strangers is not what fb excels at, the replies to the thread were vicious snarls and snaps and growls from both sides of the gender polemics.
Pointing out that women were involved in the rescues too was true, but missed the fact that the poster was completely right. Most of the rescues are being performed by male civilian volunteers, I believe. Anyway, that is certainly the impression I got from the photographs.
So my reply could be: "You guys rock! You are a great example of Heroic Masculinity." -I'd go on for a full paragraph of praise, pointing out the incredible, necessary, instinctive thing these guys are doing and only then at end of the post I would put a conclusion like, "You guys are living examples of Heroic Masculinity! What you are doing in Houston is not Toxic Masculinity. Toxic Masculinity is hitting your wife if she contradicts you."
Does that sound like a good way to be heard by the people who are mis-defining Toxic Masculinity? I am assuming most people won't catch what I am saying, as they will be leaping in to either side with or against the poster, who is probably at least a little bit of a troll, but might reach a few of the lurkers, or people who are trying to figure out why there is a discord over the issue.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:22 AM on September 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
For example there was a fb post on my feed from someone who stated that the people of Houston were being rescued by us, the male civilian volunteers, and that anyone who writes off the male gender for Masculinity for being Toxic should be ashamed and is a leftist media sheeple.
Needless to say, since contemplative thought and polite discourse between strangers is not what fb excels at, the replies to the thread were vicious snarls and snaps and growls from both sides of the gender polemics.
Pointing out that women were involved in the rescues too was true, but missed the fact that the poster was completely right. Most of the rescues are being performed by male civilian volunteers, I believe. Anyway, that is certainly the impression I got from the photographs.
So my reply could be: "You guys rock! You are a great example of Heroic Masculinity." -I'd go on for a full paragraph of praise, pointing out the incredible, necessary, instinctive thing these guys are doing and only then at end of the post I would put a conclusion like, "You guys are living examples of Heroic Masculinity! What you are doing in Houston is not Toxic Masculinity. Toxic Masculinity is hitting your wife if she contradicts you."
Does that sound like a good way to be heard by the people who are mis-defining Toxic Masculinity? I am assuming most people won't catch what I am saying, as they will be leaping in to either side with or against the poster, who is probably at least a little bit of a troll, but might reach a few of the lurkers, or people who are trying to figure out why there is a discord over the issue.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:22 AM on September 4, 2017 [16 favorites]
For example there was a fb post on my feed from someone who stated that the people of Houston were being rescued by us, the male civilian volunteers, and that anyone who writes off the male gender for Masculinity for being Toxic should be ashamed and is a leftist media sheeple.
I saw this or something similar on FB, and it had been liked by my extremely liberal mother, because of course she gives a thumbs up to anyone helping, even though the quote added "These are the people leftists love to hate".
I'm not about to reply to that Facebook post, but in my head I was thinking pretty much along the same lines as you, Jane the Brown
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:45 AM on September 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I saw this or something similar on FB, and it had been liked by my extremely liberal mother, because of course she gives a thumbs up to anyone helping, even though the quote added "These are the people leftists love to hate".
I'm not about to reply to that Facebook post, but in my head I was thinking pretty much along the same lines as you, Jane the Brown
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:45 AM on September 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Thank you for this post! It very neatly and clearly makes a case I've been trying to articulate less effectively for a long time now and hopefully it boosts the signal just a little bit more relative to the background noise and drives the message home for a few more people who might be receptive to it and could benefit from giving these ideas some deeper thought.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:46 AM on September 4, 2017
posted by saulgoodman at 8:46 AM on September 4, 2017
> Toxic Masculinity is hitting your wife if she contradicts you.
I thought that had been rebranded spousal abuse, for very good reasons?
posted by Leon at 8:49 AM on September 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I thought that had been rebranded spousal abuse, for very good reasons?
posted by Leon at 8:49 AM on September 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I thought that had been rebranded spousal abuse, for very good reasons?
I suppose toxic masculinity is about the cultural norms of expectations that lead to the behaviour of spousal abuse by men.
Where women hit spouses this would be linked to a different sort of cultural norm, but i think also related to a norm of toxic masculinity that trivialized men being hit as unimportant and suggests men are wusses for objecting. Similar to the point in the article that says we aren't supposed to care about men dying from masculine heroism and risk taking.
posted by chapps at 9:03 AM on September 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I suppose toxic masculinity is about the cultural norms of expectations that lead to the behaviour of spousal abuse by men.
Where women hit spouses this would be linked to a different sort of cultural norm, but i think also related to a norm of toxic masculinity that trivialized men being hit as unimportant and suggests men are wusses for objecting. Similar to the point in the article that says we aren't supposed to care about men dying from masculine heroism and risk taking.
posted by chapps at 9:03 AM on September 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think that a lot of the problem of any political debate these days is that terms are never clearly defined, and consensus on those meanings has been actively discouraged so that a term means completely different things, depending on which side of the argument you approach it from.
We used to have a broad consensus on facts in this country, mostly because the non-profit driven 3 news networks saw it as their duty to (mostly) tell the truth, as they saw it. Now we can't even agree on what terms mean...
This is why I appreciated, early in the thread, the video defining toxic masculinity. Defining our terms clearly can help build a more inclusive thread.
posted by MikeWarot at 9:07 AM on September 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
We used to have a broad consensus on facts in this country, mostly because the non-profit driven 3 news networks saw it as their duty to (mostly) tell the truth, as they saw it. Now we can't even agree on what terms mean...
This is why I appreciated, early in the thread, the video defining toxic masculinity. Defining our terms clearly can help build a more inclusive thread.
posted by MikeWarot at 9:07 AM on September 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
Well I think Jane the Brown has the right idea for convincing people. That FB comment pisses me off.
Doing hard a dangerous work like rescuing people in a hurricane is virtuous masculinity. Feeling the need to wave your dick around because you did it is toxic masculinity.
And maybe it's just because I'm from a background that values demonstrating your masculinity through deeds and not bragging about it, and I'm appropriating the term "toxic masculinity" and using it incorrectly.
And I know the reason men feel the need to make those sorts of comments. It is worry about being a doormat, of shutting up and getting back to work being taken as sign of being inferior. It is about the fear being dominated. Having difficulty engaging in social interaction without some loud part of you seeing it in terms of dominance relations - that's toxic masculinity and hoo boy does it run deep. I'm saying this from experience.
It is this exactly this fear of being dominated is the lever that the alt-right sorts use to advance their politics.
But even when talking to dudes, I don't even know how to get people to openly talk about this. Even talking about such fears is taken as a sign of weakness, and so I don't think a lot of men even admit it to themselves. But they act just like I expect, and I know exactly why I act that way. It is supremely frustrating and I wish I had an answer on how to have these sorts of conversations without raising people's hackles and making them defensive.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:31 AM on September 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Doing hard a dangerous work like rescuing people in a hurricane is virtuous masculinity. Feeling the need to wave your dick around because you did it is toxic masculinity.
And maybe it's just because I'm from a background that values demonstrating your masculinity through deeds and not bragging about it, and I'm appropriating the term "toxic masculinity" and using it incorrectly.
And I know the reason men feel the need to make those sorts of comments. It is worry about being a doormat, of shutting up and getting back to work being taken as sign of being inferior. It is about the fear being dominated. Having difficulty engaging in social interaction without some loud part of you seeing it in terms of dominance relations - that's toxic masculinity and hoo boy does it run deep. I'm saying this from experience.
It is this exactly this fear of being dominated is the lever that the alt-right sorts use to advance their politics.
But even when talking to dudes, I don't even know how to get people to openly talk about this. Even talking about such fears is taken as a sign of weakness, and so I don't think a lot of men even admit it to themselves. But they act just like I expect, and I know exactly why I act that way. It is supremely frustrating and I wish I had an answer on how to have these sorts of conversations without raising people's hackles and making them defensive.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:31 AM on September 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Zalzidrax: Challenging peoples beliefs is essentially challenging their identity, which prompts the fight or flight reflex. I've seen a lot of things lately explaining that using facts just results in people becoming more steadfast in their false beliefs.
I wish I could remember what the proscribed cure for this was... too much late night youtube for me.
I think the trick is probably to lead via questions, and let someone come to their own correct conclusion for themselves as a result.
posted by MikeWarot at 10:20 AM on September 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
I wish I could remember what the proscribed cure for this was... too much late night youtube for me.
I think the trick is probably to lead via questions, and let someone come to their own correct conclusion for themselves as a result.
posted by MikeWarot at 10:20 AM on September 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Huh. I had no idea people parsed "toxic masculinity" as a value judgement on all masculinity. "Toxic" modifies "masculinity" the same way "dysfunctional" modifies "relationship." Not all relationships are dysfunctional, which is why we need a modifier to clarify which relationships we are speaking of.
Or... Is the "misunderstanding" there just sea-lioning? I could see that, too.
As the mother of a little boy, toxic masculinity is my #1 fear for his future. I really hope that what we teach him at home inoculated him against basically all of the rest of American culture in this regard.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:21 AM on September 4, 2017 [29 favorites]
Or... Is the "misunderstanding" there just sea-lioning? I could see that, too.
As the mother of a little boy, toxic masculinity is my #1 fear for his future. I really hope that what we teach him at home inoculated him against basically all of the rest of American culture in this regard.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:21 AM on September 4, 2017 [29 favorites]
Doing hard and dangerous work like rescuing people in a hurricane is virtuous masculinity.
Or am I missing the point?
posted by Huck500 at 10:23 AM on September 4, 2017 [21 favorites]
Or am I missing the point?
posted by Huck500 at 10:23 AM on September 4, 2017 [21 favorites]
soren_lorenesen: I've definitely read the term as "all men are toxic" in the past.... the video that was linked to at the top of the thread helped set the conversation on a more solid footing.
It's hard not to assume everyone else uses the same definitions for terms... the reason many fields has a specialized jargon is for this very reason.
I could, for instance, imagine a culture of people who oppose modern medicine, coming up with completely contrary definitions of medical terms.... "idiopathic" for example, could be mistrued as the patient being an idiot, instead of "unknown cause".
Telling people "toxic masculinity" means all men are toxic is something I suspect the far-right would do to paint the left in a bad light.
posted by MikeWarot at 10:27 AM on September 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's hard not to assume everyone else uses the same definitions for terms... the reason many fields has a specialized jargon is for this very reason.
I could, for instance, imagine a culture of people who oppose modern medicine, coming up with completely contrary definitions of medical terms.... "idiopathic" for example, could be mistrued as the patient being an idiot, instead of "unknown cause".
Telling people "toxic masculinity" means all men are toxic is something I suspect the far-right would do to paint the left in a bad light.
posted by MikeWarot at 10:27 AM on September 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Telling people "toxic masculinity" means all men are toxic is something I suspect the far-right would do to paint the left in a bad light.
In honesty, I have never ever encountered a feminist term that wasn't deliberately misinterpreted for disinformation purposes. Including this one.
posted by traveler_ at 10:32 AM on September 4, 2017 [53 favorites]
In honesty, I have never ever encountered a feminist term that wasn't deliberately misinterpreted for disinformation purposes. Including this one.
posted by traveler_ at 10:32 AM on September 4, 2017 [53 favorites]
Huh. I had no idea people parsed "toxic masculinity" as a value judgement on all masculinity. "Toxic" modifies "masculinity" the same way "dysfunctional" modifies "relationship."
...
Doing hard and dangerous work like rescuing people in a hurricane is virtuousmasculinity.
Or am I missing the point?
I think the issue is that we define toxic masculinity, but whenever we seek to define non-toxic masculinity, these virtues are then seen as universal, and not a subset of masculinity. Therefore non-toxic masculinity becomes the empty set.
posted by zabuni at 10:46 AM on September 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
...
Doing hard and dangerous work like rescuing people in a hurricane is virtuous
Or am I missing the point?
I think the issue is that we define toxic masculinity, but whenever we seek to define non-toxic masculinity, these virtues are then seen as universal, and not a subset of masculinity. Therefore non-toxic masculinity becomes the empty set.
posted by zabuni at 10:46 AM on September 4, 2017 [15 favorites]
Lindsay Ellis's new video on Guardians of the Galaxy 2 actually has a really interesting discussion of the movie as an exploration of toxic masculinity (starting at about 9:50).
posted by Jeanne at 11:18 AM on September 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Jeanne at 11:18 AM on September 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
whenever we seek to define non-toxic masculinity, these virtues are then seen as universal
Well quite. It's an interesting exercise to come up with 'virtues' that are specifically masculine. Courage? Strength? Responsibility? Intelligence? Having a sense of direction? Being able to parallel park? Really?
The corollary, defining certain virtues as specifically feminine, comes up sharp against the same problem in that the argument seems to make a claim men aren't capable of such universal human behaviours as nurturing, loving, listening etc.
If what we discuss is the way certain behaviours can be expressed in gendered ways maybe that will make it easier to be precise about what is a harmful expression or not.
posted by glasseyes at 11:33 AM on September 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
Well quite. It's an interesting exercise to come up with 'virtues' that are specifically masculine. Courage? Strength? Responsibility? Intelligence? Having a sense of direction? Being able to parallel park? Really?
The corollary, defining certain virtues as specifically feminine, comes up sharp against the same problem in that the argument seems to make a claim men aren't capable of such universal human behaviours as nurturing, loving, listening etc.
If what we discuss is the way certain behaviours can be expressed in gendered ways maybe that will make it easier to be precise about what is a harmful expression or not.
posted by glasseyes at 11:33 AM on September 4, 2017 [14 favorites]
I thought that had been rebranded spousal abuse, for very good reasons?
Gender affects how we approach spousal abuse, as does toxic masculinity, but in very different ways depending on the victim, so differentiating by gender roles can be helpful. The idea of rebranding it spousal abuse is to decouple gender from who can be abusive as well as include same sex couples, but I hope that doesn't lead to people decoupling how we've internalized gender and our gender roles from the forms abuse can take and the effects it has.
Toxic masculinity reinforces male abuse of women as a marker of male dominance and a reinforcement of male superiority - e.g. it is a way of being a "real man" by keeping "your woman" in line. It multiplies that abuse toward women by blaming the women for the abuse while also blaming the women for staying if they are abused.
Toxic masculinity multiplies the effects of female abuse of men by adding loss of social status and "real man" identification to the experience of being abused by someone you love who claims to love you. It isolates abused men and often leads to secondary abuse from men and women who have internalized toxic masculinity as a value and so are mean to abused men because the abused man has failed to be a "real man".
Within same sex couples, the extent to which they have internalized toxic masculinity can inform the patterns of abuse; I've heard, for example, that some butch lesbians become abusive in a manner which eerily conforms to patterns of toxic masculinity. I'm sure there are similar dynamics to losing "real man" status if one is abused within male/male couples, but I don't know of any men talking about it publicly. The historical divide between "giving" and "receiving" has toxic masculinity overtones in my estimation, but I'd defer to men who have more experience with those dynamics.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:48 AM on September 4, 2017 [22 favorites]
Gender affects how we approach spousal abuse, as does toxic masculinity, but in very different ways depending on the victim, so differentiating by gender roles can be helpful. The idea of rebranding it spousal abuse is to decouple gender from who can be abusive as well as include same sex couples, but I hope that doesn't lead to people decoupling how we've internalized gender and our gender roles from the forms abuse can take and the effects it has.
Toxic masculinity reinforces male abuse of women as a marker of male dominance and a reinforcement of male superiority - e.g. it is a way of being a "real man" by keeping "your woman" in line. It multiplies that abuse toward women by blaming the women for the abuse while also blaming the women for staying if they are abused.
Toxic masculinity multiplies the effects of female abuse of men by adding loss of social status and "real man" identification to the experience of being abused by someone you love who claims to love you. It isolates abused men and often leads to secondary abuse from men and women who have internalized toxic masculinity as a value and so are mean to abused men because the abused man has failed to be a "real man".
Within same sex couples, the extent to which they have internalized toxic masculinity can inform the patterns of abuse; I've heard, for example, that some butch lesbians become abusive in a manner which eerily conforms to patterns of toxic masculinity. I'm sure there are similar dynamics to losing "real man" status if one is abused within male/male couples, but I don't know of any men talking about it publicly. The historical divide between "giving" and "receiving" has toxic masculinity overtones in my estimation, but I'd defer to men who have more experience with those dynamics.
posted by Deoridhe at 11:48 AM on September 4, 2017 [22 favorites]
I vote we stop defining virtues as gendered. Non-toxic masculinity is just being a good human being. Same as if you're a woman, non-binary or agender individual. You want to be a good man? Be a good person.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:10 PM on September 4, 2017 [31 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:10 PM on September 4, 2017 [31 favorites]
I vote we stop defining virtues as gendered.
We should. That being said, for a substantial part of the male population, self-worth and self-image is built on Being Male, and asking them to give up that identity is likely, if it has any effect, to backfire. Giving positive male virtues (which is to say, universal virtues given in gendered terms) might allow them to maintain their ego while adopting better behavior. A cynical but perhaps useful approach one-on-one. In groups, I think that probably won't make a dent in the monolith of Being Male.
posted by thegears at 12:59 PM on September 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
We should. That being said, for a substantial part of the male population, self-worth and self-image is built on Being Male, and asking them to give up that identity is likely, if it has any effect, to backfire. Giving positive male virtues (which is to say, universal virtues given in gendered terms) might allow them to maintain their ego while adopting better behavior. A cynical but perhaps useful approach one-on-one. In groups, I think that probably won't make a dent in the monolith of Being Male.
posted by thegears at 12:59 PM on September 4, 2017 [13 favorites]
I keep thinking if that damned kid's Trump song
Cowardice, are you serious?
Apologies for freedom, I can't handle this...
Deal from strength or get crushed everytime
I keep thinking, who the hell are those little girls talking about? Do they know? Is it Obama? A guy who loves him some drones but occasionally avoids open conflict? Is that too much peace and carefullness for you? Fuck me. I guess we need real men.
posted by es_de_bah at 1:44 PM on September 4, 2017
Cowardice, are you serious?
Apologies for freedom, I can't handle this...
Deal from strength or get crushed everytime
I keep thinking, who the hell are those little girls talking about? Do they know? Is it Obama? A guy who loves him some drones but occasionally avoids open conflict? Is that too much peace and carefullness for you? Fuck me. I guess we need real men.
posted by es_de_bah at 1:44 PM on September 4, 2017
Topic-related video, "What Is Toxic Masculinity?," by Pop Culture Detective
I was really underwhelmed by that video when I saw it and thinking about it today on my run I figured out why. The video uses Biff Tannen from Back to the Future as its exemplar of toxic masculinity and I have two problems with that. First, he really wants to talk about Donald Trump, but uses Biff as a stand in. Maybe it's because I'm at peak Trump at the moment but I'm pretty tired of everything having to include him. If you want to talk about Trump, go ahead and make a video about Trump (oh, he did). It's a pretty Trumpy thing to do to call out Trump's toxic masculinity without actually saying the words, or as Trump would say, "You know what I mean."
The more serious problem is that Biff is a loser. Biff is continuously beaten and embarrassed by Marty McFly, punched out by weakling George McFly, gets covered in horseshit, and is generally written and played for comedy (I've only seen the first BttF movie, so sue me). Meanwhile, there are endless media portrayals of toxic masculinity celebrated as heroic to choose from. Pick any movie hero from Anakin Skywalker to Chris Kyle that are broken and dysfunctional men yet the audience is still asked to empathize with or root for because they're men. I think choosing Biff makes toxic masculinity seem innocuous or even comedic instead of harmful.
What got me thinking about this was on my run I passed a dude on the trail who was carrying a gun. I live in an open carry state so no biggie, but I really had to wonder what storyline that guy was living out where he thought he needed to pack heat for a hike in the woods in a park in very safe and quiet suburban Virginia. There's no bears or coyotes or any crime more serious than littering, but he felt like he had to signal to the rest of us that he was prepared to commit lethal acts of violence with the cock proxy strapped to his thigh in a cool tactical holster. It's not Biff Tannen that makes toxic masculinity insidious, it's the hero of every Clint Eastwood or Mel Gibson blockbuster that gives dudes a performative macho act to copy.
posted by peeedro at 2:34 PM on September 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
I was really underwhelmed by that video when I saw it and thinking about it today on my run I figured out why. The video uses Biff Tannen from Back to the Future as its exemplar of toxic masculinity and I have two problems with that. First, he really wants to talk about Donald Trump, but uses Biff as a stand in. Maybe it's because I'm at peak Trump at the moment but I'm pretty tired of everything having to include him. If you want to talk about Trump, go ahead and make a video about Trump (oh, he did). It's a pretty Trumpy thing to do to call out Trump's toxic masculinity without actually saying the words, or as Trump would say, "You know what I mean."
The more serious problem is that Biff is a loser. Biff is continuously beaten and embarrassed by Marty McFly, punched out by weakling George McFly, gets covered in horseshit, and is generally written and played for comedy (I've only seen the first BttF movie, so sue me). Meanwhile, there are endless media portrayals of toxic masculinity celebrated as heroic to choose from. Pick any movie hero from Anakin Skywalker to Chris Kyle that are broken and dysfunctional men yet the audience is still asked to empathize with or root for because they're men. I think choosing Biff makes toxic masculinity seem innocuous or even comedic instead of harmful.
What got me thinking about this was on my run I passed a dude on the trail who was carrying a gun. I live in an open carry state so no biggie, but I really had to wonder what storyline that guy was living out where he thought he needed to pack heat for a hike in the woods in a park in very safe and quiet suburban Virginia. There's no bears or coyotes or any crime more serious than littering, but he felt like he had to signal to the rest of us that he was prepared to commit lethal acts of violence with the cock proxy strapped to his thigh in a cool tactical holster. It's not Biff Tannen that makes toxic masculinity insidious, it's the hero of every Clint Eastwood or Mel Gibson blockbuster that gives dudes a performative macho act to copy.
posted by peeedro at 2:34 PM on September 4, 2017 [18 favorites]
the non-profit driven 3 news networks
The what now?
posted by Automocar at 3:19 PM on September 4, 2017
The what now?
posted by Automocar at 3:19 PM on September 4, 2017
The what now?
I think maybe they were referring to when the networks saw news programs as fact-reporting loss-leaders, rather than the Clown-Nose-Honking Variety Scream-a-Thon Bias-Fests that they are now.
posted by tzikeh at 5:41 PM on September 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think maybe they were referring to when the networks saw news programs as fact-reporting loss-leaders, rather than the Clown-Nose-Honking Variety Scream-a-Thon Bias-Fests that they are now.
posted by tzikeh at 5:41 PM on September 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
> Toxic Masculinity is hitting your wife if she contradicts you.
"I thought that had been rebranded spousal abuse, for very good reasons?" quoting Leon.
Of course it is spousal abuse - but it when a guy hits his wife for contradicting her he is commonly doing it out of Toxic Masculinity. It is both spousal abuse, Toxic Masculinity and a host of other things, such as a criminal act, a demonstration of poor relationship skills and an act of cowardice. But in the context where I wrote the statement, I was trying to write for readers who need to value Masculinity because it is bedrock part of their worldview. So I wanted to first engage people who value Masculinity, and then get them to examine that they can value Masculinity without being bad people. I wanted the male readers of the piece who have not rejected Masculinity to agree with me (Guys who hit their wives are cowards and losers!) I want people who value Masculinity to get the idea that there are many kinds of Masculinity and they want the good type of Masculine and to reject the bad type.
"Doing hard and dangerous work like rescuing people in a hurricane is virtuousmasculinity.
Or am I missing the point?"... wrote Huck500
If I try to convince the people who use masculine as an identity definer not to value positive masculinity I'm going to lose them. I am willing to bet that a lot of those civilian guys who volunteer to do rescues by finding a boat and going out did so because they had internal masculine self-images that told them this is what they wanted to do and it gave them a feeling of self-worth.
Now if I had been out there in Houston rescuing people I would have been doing it from a feminine self-image or a parentnal self-image because I regard looking after my community -which includes Houston and the Rohingya fleeing to Bangladesh at a time when half the surface is underwater, but it is safer than where they are now - because my internal understanding of the world includes concepts like you gotta get all the children safe, regardless of if they happen to be seniors at this point in life, or pets, or livestock, or large burly men, or the little kids, or young mothers. Thems is all the children of my tribe.
Which means that the simplification of taking gender out of the equation of what to do is pretty easy for me. But I am writing for people who are likely to like and share a fb post that values masculinity and I think affirming their value is a much better way to reach them so that they will think a bit about how slippery the topic of Toxic Masculinity has been. I did reply to the post, trying to avoid being indignant, by pointing out that women too have been doing rescues - most of those people chains across running water have involved anyone steady on their feet and gender be damned - but I am quite sure my original reply lost most of the readers because they knew there were far more men doing rescues so it was just a squeakly little contradiction of their common point that we can be utterly grateful to the heroes who have used their masculine identity to go do rescues.
My post was very much being tailored to fb and not to Metafilter. I'm out of this echo chamber of fb and in that echo chamber, so I want to use their echoes to make my message resound, and not work against them to get my message drowned out.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:35 PM on September 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
"I thought that had been rebranded spousal abuse, for very good reasons?" quoting Leon.
Of course it is spousal abuse - but it when a guy hits his wife for contradicting her he is commonly doing it out of Toxic Masculinity. It is both spousal abuse, Toxic Masculinity and a host of other things, such as a criminal act, a demonstration of poor relationship skills and an act of cowardice. But in the context where I wrote the statement, I was trying to write for readers who need to value Masculinity because it is bedrock part of their worldview. So I wanted to first engage people who value Masculinity, and then get them to examine that they can value Masculinity without being bad people. I wanted the male readers of the piece who have not rejected Masculinity to agree with me (Guys who hit their wives are cowards and losers!) I want people who value Masculinity to get the idea that there are many kinds of Masculinity and they want the good type of Masculine and to reject the bad type.
"Doing hard and dangerous work like rescuing people in a hurricane is virtuous
Or am I missing the point?"... wrote Huck500
If I try to convince the people who use masculine as an identity definer not to value positive masculinity I'm going to lose them. I am willing to bet that a lot of those civilian guys who volunteer to do rescues by finding a boat and going out did so because they had internal masculine self-images that told them this is what they wanted to do and it gave them a feeling of self-worth.
Now if I had been out there in Houston rescuing people I would have been doing it from a feminine self-image or a parentnal self-image because I regard looking after my community -which includes Houston and the Rohingya fleeing to Bangladesh at a time when half the surface is underwater, but it is safer than where they are now - because my internal understanding of the world includes concepts like you gotta get all the children safe, regardless of if they happen to be seniors at this point in life, or pets, or livestock, or large burly men, or the little kids, or young mothers. Thems is all the children of my tribe.
Which means that the simplification of taking gender out of the equation of what to do is pretty easy for me. But I am writing for people who are likely to like and share a fb post that values masculinity and I think affirming their value is a much better way to reach them so that they will think a bit about how slippery the topic of Toxic Masculinity has been. I did reply to the post, trying to avoid being indignant, by pointing out that women too have been doing rescues - most of those people chains across running water have involved anyone steady on their feet and gender be damned - but I am quite sure my original reply lost most of the readers because they knew there were far more men doing rescues so it was just a squeakly little contradiction of their common point that we can be utterly grateful to the heroes who have used their masculine identity to go do rescues.
My post was very much being tailored to fb and not to Metafilter. I'm out of this echo chamber of fb and in that echo chamber, so I want to use their echoes to make my message resound, and not work against them to get my message drowned out.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:35 PM on September 4, 2017 [8 favorites]
Data point: I absolutely read "toxic masculinity" as an attack on masculinity, simply because that is how, in my experience, it is most often used. My experience is not your experience, obviously, and a lot of folks in this thread have gone out of their way to clarify a distinction between "toxic" masculinity and "virtuous" or "heroic" or even "ordinary" masculinity. But consider: if you're not trying to talk about the specific bullshit that men do, why even use the term "toxic masculinity?" why not just talk about "toxic behavior?"
posted by zanni at 7:39 PM on September 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by zanni at 7:39 PM on September 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
It's not a one-size-fits-all approach but I think it's a good one here. I feel like a less-bad view of masculinity was a gateway drug for me that allowed me to self-examine and continue to evolve my beliefs until I got to a more gender-less "just be a good person."
posted by VTX at 7:39 PM on September 4, 2017
posted by VTX at 7:39 PM on September 4, 2017
It's strongly culturist if I reject another culture's identity. It's none of my business if a guy wears his hair in a manbun or if he wears his ghetto pants. It's culturist if I reject their music, or their food or art. I don't have to dress that way, or listen to that music or eat that food or look at and even understand their art, but if I sneer at it, I am being a jerk and a bully, asserting that my culture is more valuable than theirs and that theirs is deficient. And unless they know I am an ally that values manbuns or ghetto pants I have to avoid questions like if manbuns don't tend to cause your hair to thin, or isn't it difficult to work in ghetto pants. Or they will think I am dissing them for wearing the bun rather than asking for advice on hair elastics. *Looks in mirror fretfully at thinning hair *
Notice here that the culture markers I mentioned up her are all ones that I see people of my own perceived race adopting. I am pale pink, fairly close to the colour of raw chicken. To avoid getting a derail between the concept of culturist and racist, I am listing cultural markers that I have most commonly seen adopted by people who have my skin colour and accent. In your part of the world they may go with a different skin-colour and perceived race, but I am trying to focus culture - the group norms and identifiers.
It's equally culturist of me if I tell some guy has to define himself by the same virtues and concepts that I define myself. I may belong to a culture that has permeable gender identities. But I have spent years amid people who have fostered that and he has not. It's not in the least bit practical to begin by dissing his concept of masculinity because that has been formed by the culture he is in. It's tone deaf and more.
Now I might every well want to make objections to his wearing a manbun - I've noticed that it's normally tall skinny hipsters that adopt them, and you do not want to be sitting behind a tall guy with a man bun at a crowded concert! But telling him he is icky and silly and not-really-masculine and effete for wearing a manbun because I can't see merely goes to prove that I am a hostile person who has found a reason to attack another person, and I want to have power over him and others to make decisions that make my life better and his life worse.
And in communication the critical thing is to seek first to understand. Sometimes you have to stop listening because listening shows you that the main message the person on the other side is communicating is that they want to drive people you like away. However this is rarely the case. People like that tend to end up in tiny echo chambers, as they get escorted out concert halls by security for making a scene and disrupting other people's concert experience. They end up being tiresome trolls on the internet who are working to shut down everyone else's voices.
However most of the discussions of Masculinity and Toxic Masculinity I have encountered have involved a lot of people who use Masculine as a positive identity word and an extremely basic concept. Many of them have seen that definition change slightly already so that the concepts Gay and Masculine are no longer diametrically opposed, although many of them have not. And if I want to engage them in conversation - to understand them, I have to begin by speaking in concepts they understand and not be what they experience as a tiresome troll trying to shut everyone else down. I can't begin by telling that that their basic concepts are outdated and evil or I am conflating Toxic Masculinity with Masculinity. And I want to expand their definition of Musculinity, not to expunge it or to shrink it. Masculinity means male. I want it to encompass a huge myriad of good things - gay males, tough males, respectful males, heroic males, good males, disabled males, taciturn males, verbally adept males, male dancers, male athletes - and to reject bad stuff. It's not that the virtuous stuff is not masculine. It's that the toxic stuff is not masculine. So I want to agree that heroism is a definite male trait! And being a mentor is a definite male trait. And being independent is a male trait. And making commitments and keeping them is a male trait. Yep absolutely.
(Are they female traits, or human traits? Why yes, of course, but heroism and mentorship and independence and commitment in females or in humans irrespective of gender tends to take different forms than in males because of cultural reasons. More men in Texas have ended up learning how to and owning boats than women because of a whole host of cultural reasons. Therefore the heroism that some men were performing was to go out in a boat and save people from floods. Meanwhile, less photogenically, a whole host of female and male heroes were doing a lot less noticeable things, likes staying with vulnerable people to make sure they were evacuated, or insisting other people get rescued first, or taking the risk of losing their car by running urgently needed supplies... Equally heroic because of the danger to themselves. But this is an aside because I am trying to help clarify the definition of Masculine for a group that finds the word Masculine as basic and inescapable a concept as up and down.*)
So I think the best way to reinforce non-Toxic masculinity is to de-gender the toxic traits. Bullying is toxic and it's not particularly masculine either. Non consensual violence it toxic. When a woman slaps her kid she is on the same scale as a man who slaps his wife. Not masculine. When a person suppresses their emotions so that they damage themself it's toxic. The way this plays out in men tends to be the you must not cry, you must not be tender or empathetic. You must keep playing after you get hurt in sports. The way this plays out in women tends to be the you must put others needs before your own, you must not be confrontational or assertive. (It ain't feminine to fight. There you go, crying again, Just Like a Woman.) Again, in the basics this could be defined as Toxic Masculinity, or as Toxic Femininity. But it's the same toxic trait being tacked on to a gender identity.
And I think gently, gently steering the dialogue a thousand times in a thousand ways, by peeling toxic traits away from masculine, and making the blustering bullies who try to include toxic non-gender-specific traits as part of gender a lower ratio of the voices talking about and affirming masculinity is going to be more effective than arguing that positive traits are not masculine or trying to evade the concept of masculine altogether.
And finally by beginning with the concept culturalism, I may have made some of my readers (if any tl:dr) defensive. Because most (all) of us find it very difficult not to go Ewww! or Hah-ha at things that are out of our culture at least some of the time. And it is so much fun to dis the Other for fancying themselves a real artist when their taste is so mawkish, or whatever we do when we are exhibiting our culturalism. But here's the thing. I am culturalist, and I suppose most or all of us are culturalist too. It's part of the wiring. I know that I am sexist, and I know that I am racist. And I am not ashamed of it, although I am embarrased about it. Because as soon as I recognize those traits in myself I can look at them and check if I am being mean, or trying to control other people in ways that do not provide benefits for them, or make the assumption that I know more or better. And if my behaviour doesn't pass that test, that I am being mean (Hey, she deserves, I mean tacky clothes) or making judgments about things that the other people know more about than I do (mansplaining, whitesplaining, cripsplaining etc.) I hope I will recognize that and stop. This is my journey to try to get the toxic stuff out of my head.
*We all will find the concepts of up and down a great deal less useful when we are on a zero-gravity space station. Even up and down are only situationally useful concepts for communication.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:12 PM on September 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
Notice here that the culture markers I mentioned up her are all ones that I see people of my own perceived race adopting. I am pale pink, fairly close to the colour of raw chicken. To avoid getting a derail between the concept of culturist and racist, I am listing cultural markers that I have most commonly seen adopted by people who have my skin colour and accent. In your part of the world they may go with a different skin-colour and perceived race, but I am trying to focus culture - the group norms and identifiers.
It's equally culturist of me if I tell some guy has to define himself by the same virtues and concepts that I define myself. I may belong to a culture that has permeable gender identities. But I have spent years amid people who have fostered that and he has not. It's not in the least bit practical to begin by dissing his concept of masculinity because that has been formed by the culture he is in. It's tone deaf and more.
Now I might every well want to make objections to his wearing a manbun - I've noticed that it's normally tall skinny hipsters that adopt them, and you do not want to be sitting behind a tall guy with a man bun at a crowded concert! But telling him he is icky and silly and not-really-masculine and effete for wearing a manbun because I can't see merely goes to prove that I am a hostile person who has found a reason to attack another person, and I want to have power over him and others to make decisions that make my life better and his life worse.
And in communication the critical thing is to seek first to understand. Sometimes you have to stop listening because listening shows you that the main message the person on the other side is communicating is that they want to drive people you like away. However this is rarely the case. People like that tend to end up in tiny echo chambers, as they get escorted out concert halls by security for making a scene and disrupting other people's concert experience. They end up being tiresome trolls on the internet who are working to shut down everyone else's voices.
However most of the discussions of Masculinity and Toxic Masculinity I have encountered have involved a lot of people who use Masculine as a positive identity word and an extremely basic concept. Many of them have seen that definition change slightly already so that the concepts Gay and Masculine are no longer diametrically opposed, although many of them have not. And if I want to engage them in conversation - to understand them, I have to begin by speaking in concepts they understand and not be what they experience as a tiresome troll trying to shut everyone else down. I can't begin by telling that that their basic concepts are outdated and evil or I am conflating Toxic Masculinity with Masculinity. And I want to expand their definition of Musculinity, not to expunge it or to shrink it. Masculinity means male. I want it to encompass a huge myriad of good things - gay males, tough males, respectful males, heroic males, good males, disabled males, taciturn males, verbally adept males, male dancers, male athletes - and to reject bad stuff. It's not that the virtuous stuff is not masculine. It's that the toxic stuff is not masculine. So I want to agree that heroism is a definite male trait! And being a mentor is a definite male trait. And being independent is a male trait. And making commitments and keeping them is a male trait. Yep absolutely.
(Are they female traits, or human traits? Why yes, of course, but heroism and mentorship and independence and commitment in females or in humans irrespective of gender tends to take different forms than in males because of cultural reasons. More men in Texas have ended up learning how to and owning boats than women because of a whole host of cultural reasons. Therefore the heroism that some men were performing was to go out in a boat and save people from floods. Meanwhile, less photogenically, a whole host of female and male heroes were doing a lot less noticeable things, likes staying with vulnerable people to make sure they were evacuated, or insisting other people get rescued first, or taking the risk of losing their car by running urgently needed supplies... Equally heroic because of the danger to themselves. But this is an aside because I am trying to help clarify the definition of Masculine for a group that finds the word Masculine as basic and inescapable a concept as up and down.*)
So I think the best way to reinforce non-Toxic masculinity is to de-gender the toxic traits. Bullying is toxic and it's not particularly masculine either. Non consensual violence it toxic. When a woman slaps her kid she is on the same scale as a man who slaps his wife. Not masculine. When a person suppresses their emotions so that they damage themself it's toxic. The way this plays out in men tends to be the you must not cry, you must not be tender or empathetic. You must keep playing after you get hurt in sports. The way this plays out in women tends to be the you must put others needs before your own, you must not be confrontational or assertive. (It ain't feminine to fight. There you go, crying again, Just Like a Woman.) Again, in the basics this could be defined as Toxic Masculinity, or as Toxic Femininity. But it's the same toxic trait being tacked on to a gender identity.
And I think gently, gently steering the dialogue a thousand times in a thousand ways, by peeling toxic traits away from masculine, and making the blustering bullies who try to include toxic non-gender-specific traits as part of gender a lower ratio of the voices talking about and affirming masculinity is going to be more effective than arguing that positive traits are not masculine or trying to evade the concept of masculine altogether.
And finally by beginning with the concept culturalism, I may have made some of my readers (if any tl:dr) defensive. Because most (all) of us find it very difficult not to go Ewww! or Hah-ha at things that are out of our culture at least some of the time. And it is so much fun to dis the Other for fancying themselves a real artist when their taste is so mawkish, or whatever we do when we are exhibiting our culturalism. But here's the thing. I am culturalist, and I suppose most or all of us are culturalist too. It's part of the wiring. I know that I am sexist, and I know that I am racist. And I am not ashamed of it, although I am embarrased about it. Because as soon as I recognize those traits in myself I can look at them and check if I am being mean, or trying to control other people in ways that do not provide benefits for them, or make the assumption that I know more or better. And if my behaviour doesn't pass that test, that I am being mean (Hey, she deserves, I mean tacky clothes) or making judgments about things that the other people know more about than I do (mansplaining, whitesplaining, cripsplaining etc.) I hope I will recognize that and stop. This is my journey to try to get the toxic stuff out of my head.
*We all will find the concepts of up and down a great deal less useful when we are on a zero-gravity space station. Even up and down are only situationally useful concepts for communication.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:12 PM on September 4, 2017 [7 favorites]
But consider: if you're not trying to talk about the specific bullshit that men do, why even use the term "toxic masculinity?" why not just talk about "toxic behavior?"
It's because the toxic behavior derives from how people interpret masculinity. The idea that "masculinity entails the rejection of all things conventionally regarded as feminine" brings about harm; it is that interpretation of masculinity that is toxic.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:33 AM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
It's because the toxic behavior derives from how people interpret masculinity. The idea that "masculinity entails the rejection of all things conventionally regarded as feminine" brings about harm; it is that interpretation of masculinity that is toxic.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:33 AM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
Data point: I absolutely read "toxic masculinity" as an attack on masculinity, simply because that is how, in my experience, it is most often used. My experience is not your experience, obviously, and a lot of folks in this thread have gone out of their way to clarify a distinction between "toxic" masculinity and "virtuous" or "heroic" or even "ordinary" masculinity. But consider: if you're not trying to talk about the specific bullshit that men do, why even use the term "toxic masculinity?" why not just talk about "toxic behavior?"I'm not sure I understood your question here because toxic masculinity DOES refer to toxic behavior that is socialized into men, specifically. But, I'll try.
posted by zanni at 7:39 PM on September 4
"Toxic Masculinity" when used as a term of art is intended to mean "masculinity of the toxic variety", but it is easy to read it as "masculinity, which is toxic". Sort of like "deadly nightshade".
I think if the intended meaning could be broadcast to a wider audience it might unknot a lot of underpants.
Respectfully, you may wish to reevaluate other times you've read toxic masculinity, because if were READING it that way, then that could be why it looks like it's most often used that way.
posted by Horkus at 12:44 AM on September 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
I absolutely read "toxic masculinity" as an attack on masculinity... But consider: if you're not trying to talk about the specific bullshit that men do, why even use the term "toxic masculinity?" why not just talk about "toxic behavior?"
You've just said #notallmen using different words. I hope you can see that.
posted by tzikeh at 5:23 AM on September 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
You've just said #notallmen using different words. I hope you can see that.
posted by tzikeh at 5:23 AM on September 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
"THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT TOXIC MASCULINITY. BECAUSE YOU CAN DIE FROM IT"
I shouted this at the bruised and beaten man sitting next to me in the back of the Lyft.
Earlier he had called me in tears; he'd been beaten up and robbed, his assailant, a man too large for him to fight, had knocked him to the ground and stomped on his head. I came to not only give him support, but because I knew he would be reluctant to seek medical attention, even if he desperately needed it, even though the hospital was less than a block away.
He had, in a previous life, been a professional fighter. Years of poor judgement and a big mouth had kept him in practice, if not in shape. He kept saying "Nobody has ever kicked my ass before. Nobody has ever kicked my ass before."
I said, "Nobody cares. It isn't important. We need to figure out how badly hurt you are. You might have a concussion, you got your head stomped on the pavement, you got kicked in the torso. I'm here to make sure you don't die.
THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT TOXIC MASCULINITY."
I see it so much. Men who can't talk about being abused, or being depressed, or in pain. Who can't be who they are. Men who have to conceal their intelligence or compassion, who can't embrace what they love. Men who are mocked when they seek help. That is what toxic masculinity is. Men die from it. Other people die from it, too.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:26 AM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
I shouted this at the bruised and beaten man sitting next to me in the back of the Lyft.
Earlier he had called me in tears; he'd been beaten up and robbed, his assailant, a man too large for him to fight, had knocked him to the ground and stomped on his head. I came to not only give him support, but because I knew he would be reluctant to seek medical attention, even if he desperately needed it, even though the hospital was less than a block away.
He had, in a previous life, been a professional fighter. Years of poor judgement and a big mouth had kept him in practice, if not in shape. He kept saying "Nobody has ever kicked my ass before. Nobody has ever kicked my ass before."
I said, "Nobody cares. It isn't important. We need to figure out how badly hurt you are. You might have a concussion, you got your head stomped on the pavement, you got kicked in the torso. I'm here to make sure you don't die.
THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT TOXIC MASCULINITY."
I see it so much. Men who can't talk about being abused, or being depressed, or in pain. Who can't be who they are. Men who have to conceal their intelligence or compassion, who can't embrace what they love. Men who are mocked when they seek help. That is what toxic masculinity is. Men die from it. Other people die from it, too.
posted by louche mustachio at 6:26 AM on September 5, 2017 [17 favorites]
Data point: I absolutely read "toxic masculinity" as an attack on masculinity, simply because that is how, in my experience, it is most often used.
Outside of the kind of people/groups (such as MRAs/RedPillers/etc) that deliberately use this framing to muddy the waters, it's pretty much never used that way. If you read any source describing the commonly-accepted definition, it's very clearly laid out.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:29 AM on September 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
Outside of the kind of people/groups (such as MRAs/RedPillers/etc) that deliberately use this framing to muddy the waters, it's pretty much never used that way. If you read any source describing the commonly-accepted definition, it's very clearly laid out.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:29 AM on September 5, 2017 [14 favorites]
I've known what it supposed to mean for a while, and I have seen it used incorrectly by lots of people with all sorts of views, so I'd say that this misunderstanding is pretty widespread. So can we please not be jerks to people who misunderstood, it's more common than you think, it's part of what TFA is about, and it's a crappy thing to do.
posted by conic at 7:03 AM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by conic at 7:03 AM on September 5, 2017 [3 favorites]
Men who can't talk about being abused, or being depressed, or in pain. Who can't be who they are. Men who have to conceal their intelligence or compassion, who can't embrace what they love. Men who are mocked when they seek help. That is what toxic masculinity is.
QFT. Jane, for me personally, reading something along these lines in your fb comment would be much more effective because I (and most men) can relate to this, whereas I would parse "toxic masculinity is when you hit your wife for contradicting you" as meaning toxic masculinity doesn't affect to me because that's not a thing I would ever do.
posted by joedan at 10:03 AM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
QFT. Jane, for me personally, reading something along these lines in your fb comment would be much more effective because I (and most men) can relate to this, whereas I would parse "toxic masculinity is when you hit your wife for contradicting you" as meaning toxic masculinity doesn't affect to me because that's not a thing I would ever do.
posted by joedan at 10:03 AM on September 5, 2017 [4 favorites]
But consider: if you're not trying to talk about the specific bullshit that men do, why even use the term "toxic masculinity?" why not just talk about "toxic behavior?"
Most of the behavior covered by "toxic masculinity" is very strongly gendered. "Be a real man" and "done be like a woman" will never motivate me to act, as a cis woman who identifies fairly femme and is also straight - my experience of masculinity (except for my internalized relationship with it and the echoes of my teenage years spent looking up almost entirely to men) is that of an outsider almost exclusively. Most of the behavior covered by "toxic masculinity" is also intra-male; while some women do reinforce it (these sometimes get referenced by MRAs, interestingly enough, as the sole cause of male pain), the primary motivation for value transmittal is locations women are explicitly not welcome as peers and equal participants - all-male sports, fraternities, the quiet conversations fathers and uncles have with young boys, the bullying that men perpetrate on other men, within the context of male bonding via shared pursuit of sexual conquests, etc.
A lot of the issues MRAs identify as damage caused by feminists are actually the result of toxic masculinity - in fact I suspect these interactions is part of why toxic masculinity as a concept is part of feminism while the aspects of toxic femininity are far more fractured conceptually. Lack of relationships with children leading to inability or disinterest in parenting (women usually get physical custody of children + child support); high suicide rates; avoiding medical care (younger and more frequent deaths); inability to build and sustain relationships; refusal to accept women as equals or as being capable of existing in dangerous situations (excluding women from the military front lines/Selective Service).
One of the most interesting movies I saw addressing toxic masculinity (with a tiny side-story of one type of toxic femininity) was Don Jon, which I highly recommend. The one flaw I've seen pointed out is possible stereotypes about Italian families which I'm not equipped to parse, but otherwise it's a fascinating look at what happened to one man as a result of his internalization of toxic masculinity and how he began to find his way into forming authentic and loving relationships with others.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:21 PM on September 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
Most of the behavior covered by "toxic masculinity" is very strongly gendered. "Be a real man" and "done be like a woman" will never motivate me to act, as a cis woman who identifies fairly femme and is also straight - my experience of masculinity (except for my internalized relationship with it and the echoes of my teenage years spent looking up almost entirely to men) is that of an outsider almost exclusively. Most of the behavior covered by "toxic masculinity" is also intra-male; while some women do reinforce it (these sometimes get referenced by MRAs, interestingly enough, as the sole cause of male pain), the primary motivation for value transmittal is locations women are explicitly not welcome as peers and equal participants - all-male sports, fraternities, the quiet conversations fathers and uncles have with young boys, the bullying that men perpetrate on other men, within the context of male bonding via shared pursuit of sexual conquests, etc.
A lot of the issues MRAs identify as damage caused by feminists are actually the result of toxic masculinity - in fact I suspect these interactions is part of why toxic masculinity as a concept is part of feminism while the aspects of toxic femininity are far more fractured conceptually. Lack of relationships with children leading to inability or disinterest in parenting (women usually get physical custody of children + child support); high suicide rates; avoiding medical care (younger and more frequent deaths); inability to build and sustain relationships; refusal to accept women as equals or as being capable of existing in dangerous situations (excluding women from the military front lines/Selective Service).
One of the most interesting movies I saw addressing toxic masculinity (with a tiny side-story of one type of toxic femininity) was Don Jon, which I highly recommend. The one flaw I've seen pointed out is possible stereotypes about Italian families which I'm not equipped to parse, but otherwise it's a fascinating look at what happened to one man as a result of his internalization of toxic masculinity and how he began to find his way into forming authentic and loving relationships with others.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:21 PM on September 5, 2017 [8 favorites]
Well quite. It's an interesting exercise to come up with 'virtues' that are specifically masculine. Courage? Strength? Responsibility? Intelligence? Having a sense of direction? Being able to parallel park? Really?
To answer this question, I keep finding myself returning to The Way Of Men, the popular book written a few years ago. The virtues suggested by the author, Jack Donovan, are: Strength, Courage, Mastery, and Honor.
To which you could well say, well, so what? Women can be strong, courageous, masterful, and honorable. Which is of course true. But Donovan makes the good point that these are the primary things that a small band (or 'gang' or 'brotherhood') of men will demand of each other. In a life-or-death situation, in which men need to band together for survival against enemies or a hostile environment, men will demand these these virtues for their team and cut loose those who lack them.
How does this connect to toxic masculinity? Well, in a sense it is orthogonal. Donovan's book discusses this point with a memorable contrast between "being a good man" versus "being good at being a man".
In other words, just because you're a good man doesn't mean you're masculine, and just because you're masculine doesn't make you good. They are independent axes.
For its part, toxic masculinity often seems to be expressed through unkindness or mistreatment of self or others. In the "self" case, a man may avoid doctors or talking about his problems out of the perception that it's "unmanly" to be worried about that stuff. In the "other" case, a man may emotionally or physically abuse his family and other people close to him in order to control or persuade them, or because he can't deal effectively with his own emotions.
posted by theorique at 10:55 AM on September 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
To answer this question, I keep finding myself returning to The Way Of Men, the popular book written a few years ago. The virtues suggested by the author, Jack Donovan, are: Strength, Courage, Mastery, and Honor.
To which you could well say, well, so what? Women can be strong, courageous, masterful, and honorable. Which is of course true. But Donovan makes the good point that these are the primary things that a small band (or 'gang' or 'brotherhood') of men will demand of each other. In a life-or-death situation, in which men need to band together for survival against enemies or a hostile environment, men will demand these these virtues for their team and cut loose those who lack them.
How does this connect to toxic masculinity? Well, in a sense it is orthogonal. Donovan's book discusses this point with a memorable contrast between "being a good man" versus "being good at being a man".
In other words, just because you're a good man doesn't mean you're masculine, and just because you're masculine doesn't make you good. They are independent axes.
For its part, toxic masculinity often seems to be expressed through unkindness or mistreatment of self or others. In the "self" case, a man may avoid doctors or talking about his problems out of the perception that it's "unmanly" to be worried about that stuff. In the "other" case, a man may emotionally or physically abuse his family and other people close to him in order to control or persuade them, or because he can't deal effectively with his own emotions.
posted by theorique at 10:55 AM on September 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
To answer this question, I keep finding myself returning to The Way Of Men, the popular book written a few years ago.
This thread has made me think a lot about Irvine Welsh's books, and the way he celebrates and denigrates masculinity (critics generally focus on his Scottishness, but I think his writing's a lot more universal than that), but I haven't really found a good place to drop it into the thread until now:
This thread has made me think a lot about Irvine Welsh's books, and the way he celebrates and denigrates masculinity (critics generally focus on his Scottishness, but I think his writing's a lot more universal than that), but I haven't really found a good place to drop it into the thread until now:
'One thing about hard cunts that I've never understood: why do they all have to be such big sensitive blouses? The Scottish Hardman ladders his tights so he rips open the face of a passerby. The Scottish Hardman chips a nail, so he head-butts some poor fucker. Some other guy is wearing the same patterned dress as the Scottish Hardman, and gets a glass in his face for his troubles'posted by Leon at 12:01 PM on September 6, 2017
One thing about hard cunts that I've never understood: why do they all have to be such big sensitive blouses?
That's a great phrase and it raises an interesting point about the "fragility" of masculine identity: academics and writers who study masculinity point to the fact that it gets policed in various ways, both from the outside and from within. Your masculine status is never constant - there's always a guy somewhere who might be a bit tougher than you, and even if you're the undisputed toughest guy within your own group, eventually age will take you down.
A demonstrative and/performative masculinity (as exhibited by the aforementioned "hard cunts") might be more likely to be grounded in uncertainty and overcompensation, and thus more likely to "go toxic", than a masculine identity that is quiet and internally grounded. A man who gets violently angry when his self-image is threatened or contradicted, and feels a powerful need to react, is really rather vulnerable.
posted by theorique at 12:45 PM on September 6, 2017
That's a great phrase and it raises an interesting point about the "fragility" of masculine identity: academics and writers who study masculinity point to the fact that it gets policed in various ways, both from the outside and from within. Your masculine status is never constant - there's always a guy somewhere who might be a bit tougher than you, and even if you're the undisputed toughest guy within your own group, eventually age will take you down.
A demonstrative and/performative masculinity (as exhibited by the aforementioned "hard cunts") might be more likely to be grounded in uncertainty and overcompensation, and thus more likely to "go toxic", than a masculine identity that is quiet and internally grounded. A man who gets violently angry when his self-image is threatened or contradicted, and feels a powerful need to react, is really rather vulnerable.
posted by theorique at 12:45 PM on September 6, 2017
theorique: Note that "feminine" is synonymous with "second class" in that quote. Even when ridiculing macho egos, we still have to reassure ourselves that we're better than girls. Ho hum.
posted by Leon at 10:29 PM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Leon at 10:29 PM on September 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Agree 100%. The reference points for mockery are completely feminine: ladders his tights, chips a nail, guy is wearing the same patterned dress.
The way the "hard cunts" are mocked is by likening them to the thing that they (presumably) strive to avoid most of all: "You think you're a tough man, but really you're just a scared little girl."
And the narrator of the quote is indeed also participating in a version of the woman-hating that, in another context, he might criticize those same "hard cunts" for displaying.
posted by theorique at 5:25 AM on September 7, 2017
The way the "hard cunts" are mocked is by likening them to the thing that they (presumably) strive to avoid most of all: "You think you're a tough man, but really you're just a scared little girl."
And the narrator of the quote is indeed also participating in a version of the woman-hating that, in another context, he might criticize those same "hard cunts" for displaying.
posted by theorique at 5:25 AM on September 7, 2017
To be honest, I thought the subtext was "these are ways in which women are inconvenienced, and they don't make a fuss, they just get on with life, so stop whining" - that the Cunts are weaker and more melodramatic than what they believe women to be (rather than what women actually are). That is to say, it was recognising the Cunts' misogyny and weaponising against them rather than reinforcing it. I'm not a reader of Irvine Welsh, though, so I might have got it completely wrong.
I recently recognised that for me, the main experience of depression is to be angry all the time, flailing about for something to justify it. Which would explain a lot about a lot.
posted by Grangousier at 11:31 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
I recently recognised that for me, the main experience of depression is to be angry all the time, flailing about for something to justify it. Which would explain a lot about a lot.
posted by Grangousier at 11:31 AM on September 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
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It's a good read.
The article that the article is about (The meta-article?) is so bizarre and I think really underlines something that I've seen a lot of recently. A lot of people are complaining about toxic masculinity, or feminism or gender neutral clothes or any number of other similarish things seem to have not one clue about what they are actually complaining about.
I really want them to be forced to sit down and actually talk through why they object so much (but of course the lack of talking about things is a toxic manliness issue, so shrug emoji I guess) and we can maybe find out where the disagreement lies.
If all the people on twitter who started tweets with "Genuine Question...." actually were genuinely asking a question and listening to the responses instead of it being "Genuine Question: Why do you hate men and want everyone to defile our beloved flag with hot gay sex" then I'd bet we could learn some really enlightening things about each other.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:40 AM on September 4, 2017 [20 favorites]