Move over, Harvey Weinstein: It's Kevin Spacey's Turn
October 30, 2017 11:12 AM   Subscribe

In the continuing saga of powerful men in Hollywood all being incredibly horrible, a Buzzfeed story has dropped in which Star Trek: Discovery's own Anthony Rapp accused actor and former closet case Kevin Spacey of sexually assaulting him when Rapp was 14. Spacey, of course, used this opportunity to finally come out publically as a gay man, which many people, including British journalist Owen Jones, had no time for.
posted by Automocar (287 comments total) 31 users marked this as a favorite
 
I think Billy Eichner has the most succinct and biting response:

"Kevin Spacey has just invented something that has never existed before: a bad time to come out."
posted by tobascodagama at 11:17 AM on October 30 [131 favorites]


Fuck this noise. Combining a half assed apology with a coming out statement implies that his homosexuality caused his poor behaviour. That fucking throws all of us gays under the bus as predators who can't help ourselves while trying to gain sympathy for his poor closeted feelings and struggles, while he should be taking responsibility for sexually assaulting a minor.
posted by yellowbinder at 11:18 AM on October 30 [105 favorites]


I don't defend, in any, way, Spacey's alleged behaviour or this half-assed response of his and if this pans out the dude should do time no matter how amazing his work is...but come on now folks do we really want to go equating Harvey Weinstein's dozens (hundreds?) of assaults with what was potentially a single incident?

I understand, it's the same general type of abuse by someone in the same general industry who is also similarly famous...but those are pretty thin ties. I think there's a better way to frame this for a post title or conversation starter is all.
posted by trackofalljades at 11:21 AM on October 30 [4 favorites]


I don't remember! I was drunk! - not an excuse
I'm gay! - let's deflect.
What happened to taking responsibility for your actions?

Step up to the plate, apologize privately and sincerely, offer to pay for some therapy or make restitution (and then follow through), and stop making it about yourself. Until you do these things, you're an asshole.
posted by disclaimer at 11:21 AM on October 30 [4 favorites]




I don't think I've ever read a worse non-pology. Even leaving out the really bad timing, "If it did happen, then I owe him an apology, even though I was probably really drunk, so don't hold me accountable" is pretty much the bottom of the barrel in backhanded denial.
posted by muddgirl at 11:23 AM on October 30 [9 favorites]


What a fucking year to be a survivor. I woke up to the news about Rapp/Spacey, then got it in real time as Spacey finally made a statement. It made my blood boil. His coming out frames his homosexuality in a way that perpetuates a terrible stereotype. He almost uses it as an excuse. These accusations are causing him to reflect on himself and his sexuality? No fucking shit. Can you imagine how the 14 year old child felt, after being violated by a man, thinking of his own sexuality? Its so utterly deaf, I can't stand it.
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:24 AM on October 30 [45 favorites]


A couple more links.. 5 months ago on Reddit someone wrote about Spacey sexually harassing staff (with corroborating comments in the discussion, but watch the dates). Also there's a Family Guy joke from 12 years ago which in retrospect is really not funny at all.

I've been reading this story obsessively today. I love Kevin Spacey's acting. I also am appreciating Rapp's work on Star Trek: Discovery so feel like I can relate to Rapp. What's most surprising to me is how inappropriately defensive I feel for Spacey. I want to just explain this away. "He's still a great actor!" or maybe "Being closeted is confusing" or "Maybe he was just drunk". That's my reflexive reaction. It's entirely inappropriate and I recognize it as such. But it helps me understand better how people could defend someone like Feinstein or Polanski or Trump in the face of evidence of their sexual predation. I think it's key for me that I'm gay and Rapp and Spacey are gay, so it's relatable to me in a way that men who prey on women are not. Clearly I have my own bullshit to figure out.
posted by Nelson at 11:26 AM on October 30 [56 favorites]


There might be a gut reaction in a naive reader that, of course that's a ridiculous accusation, because Spacey is hetero. Maybe he was trying to be more generous by admitting incident is more possible than a Hollywood non-insider would know, by acknowledging his own tastes to a wide audience.

In other words, maybe he was deflecting, but I wonder if it's possible that he was trying to be gracious by shedding a possible shield of public assumption.
posted by amtho at 11:26 AM on October 30 [4 favorites]


Well, at least this gives the people over at R/The_Donald something to talk about that isn't about Trump administration figures getting indicted. He's tight with the Clintons you know...
posted by Naberius at 11:27 AM on October 30 [1 favorite]


Claire is gonna be President forever, right?
posted by Keith Talent at 11:28 AM on October 30 [3 favorites]


I remember somebody decades ago mentioning something to me about Spacey and young men/boys; probably about the time that Usual Suspects came out and I was chatting about how much I enjoyed Spacey as an actor. I never heard anything else about it again, but it always stuck with me...and all I can think now is that if someone knew enough all that time ago to mention something to me (some guy who has no showbiz connections in some hick town), then there has to be more to come. It wasn't just once.
posted by nubs at 11:29 AM on October 30 [3 favorites]


A friend of mine alleged that Spacey sexually assaulted him (I won't elaborate). He is disgusting, his career should be set on fire, and no one should ever watch anything that he's in.
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 11:29 AM on October 30 [17 favorites]


There might be a gut reaction in a naive reader that, of course that's a ridiculous accusation, because Spacey is hetero. Maybe he was trying to be more generous by admitting incident is more possible than a Hollywood non-insider would know, by acknowledging his own tastes to a wide audience.

Can we please refrain from making any statements that equate homosexuality with predatory or pedophilic behavior, or statements that make the suggestion that predatory or pedophilic behavior is anything like having a (preference for) a real relationship or attraction?
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:29 AM on October 30 [46 favorites]


A well-said statement by Tom and Lorenzo: On Behalf of The LGBT Community, Fuck Off, Kevin Spacey.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:30 AM on October 30 [51 favorites]


Being “probably drunk” isn’t an excuse, Kevin.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:32 AM on October 30 [4 favorites]


Can we get the marquee tag just to forever emphasize this quote from TLo:

Alcohol does not make gay men fondle teenage boys.
posted by muddgirl at 11:35 AM on October 30 [73 favorites]


So infuriating to tell someone who has the courage to speak up about sexual abuse that happened to them as a young person that "it was a long time ago" to diminish their experience.
posted by effluvia at 11:36 AM on October 30 [19 favorites]


Move over, Harvey Weinstein: It's Kevin Spacey's Turn

It's also still Harvey's turn.
posted by maxsparber at 11:37 AM on October 30 [132 favorites]


Yes, effluvia. His bullshit apology is so dismissive. "Oh, I might have, it was so long ago and not that big of a deal. I guess if it did happen, it would have been just drunken behavior or something. By the way, I'm gay now."
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:38 AM on October 30 [12 favorites]


come on now folks do we really want to go equating Harvey Weinstein's dozens (hundreds?) of assaults with what was potentially a single incident?

Spacey has been a well-known sexual predator for decades, just like Harvey-- just with a different set of victims. So, yes, we do.

Also, he invited a child to his home, to a party full of adults, before he even started getting drunk. Being drunk isn't an excuse, but even if it were, Spacey manipulated Rapp into a vulnerable place while Spacey was stone-cold sober. As is usually the M.O. of dudes like this.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:40 AM on October 30 [73 favorites]


I remember hearing that Spacey was a creep over a decade ago. And if I knew, then everyone knew, because I do not work in Hollywood.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:40 AM on October 30 [29 favorites]


He'll get people killed with this shit.

Fuck him forever.
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on October 30 [21 favorites]


The Sad Truths Behind the L.A. Party Scene That Took Down Bryan Singer

Who is still conspicuously around.
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on October 30 [20 favorites]


Spacey has been a well-known sexual predator for decades, just like Harvey

Yeah, this was really not a secret.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:42 AM on October 30 [4 favorites]


I thought that Spacey being gay was pretty much an open secret. I've also heard from friends of mine in the theater world who've been harassed/hit on inappropriately. The underage part is new, to me, and even more despicable, and count me in as a queer person who lost even more respect for him because of this "the gay and the drink made me do it" line.

As someone else said on twitter, I've been very, very gay, and very, very drunk, and none of that made me assault an underage person.
posted by gingerbeer at 11:43 AM on October 30 [81 favorites]


Move over, Harvey Weinstein: It's Kevin Spacey's Turn

I know others have addressed this already, but wtf
posted by naju at 11:49 AM on October 30 [4 favorites]


Also, since we’ve already had at least one knee-jerk dismissal, I wanted to add, in case anyone else is feeling skeptical about this news— when you hear about a serial predator, and you are surrounded by people saying “yeah, of course”, and you are the only person who seems shocked or dubious— maybe that is not the moment to call other people out for being gullible or unreasonable.

Maybe yours is the gullible and unreasonable stance. Maybe ask yourself why whisper networks have never reached you. Maybe ask yourself why your default is to assume that this person was only a predator once, even though all of our evidence about sexual predation shows that it is a lifelong pattern of behavior in the majority of cases. Maybe ask why this open secret was closed to you. Maybe ask why, even now, his response from a position of relative power and privilege is to harm the most vulnerable.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:50 AM on October 30 [57 favorites]


Kevin Spacey has been showing up in blind items for his shady cruising of young men for YEARS. What's really bad is how he's largely been characterized as "closeted creepy flirt" instead of "closeted sexual predator who sexually harasses and assaults young men up to and including teenage boys."
posted by nicebookrack at 12:01 PM on October 30 [24 favorites]


Oh, and I apologize if people find the thread title glib--it was meant as a reference to the news cycle. I wasn't trying to say that we should all forget about Harvey Weinstein. God forbid. I hope more and more of his victims come forward, and I hope he's under criminal investigation.
posted by Automocar at 12:07 PM on October 30 [10 favorites]


I don't defend, in any, way, Spacey's alleged behaviour or this half-assed response of his and if this pans out the dude should do time no matter how amazing his work is...but come on now folks do we really want to go equating Harvey Weinstein's dozens (hundreds?) of assaults with what was potentially a single incident?

You know, I'm totally cool with lumping all the sexual predators together. Let them worry about their own hierarchy.
posted by notorious medium at 12:09 PM on October 30 [40 favorites]


I feel like Spacey is able to do this--or at least had an opportunity to do this, whether or not it's actually going to work--precisely because the language used in these kinds of reports is so anodyne. It was a sexual advance--which, if that's all you read, you could think, okay, maybe he was drunk a long time ago and he said something suggestive to a teenager that was misconstrued--you can invent the scenarios in your head that make the actor you like not so bad. Even BuzzFeed calls it an "advance". But then the story goes on to describe a drunk 26-year-old physically putting a 14-year-old in his bed and climbing on top of him.

And that's an advance, by their terminology.

Regardless of gender, I think a lot of celebrities wind up getting a pass because people are avoiding the gritty details, and the language the media uses about this lets you picture it being something like: Weinstein said something to the effect of, "Hey, you're hot, do you want to go to bed with me," and she said no, and that was it. But that's not what these guys have actually been doing. Yes, lots of people have been inappropriately flirty while drunk, although 14 would be seriously pushing it for even that, but this was a million years from inappropriately flirty. This is a situation that involved serious physical contact without consent, in a situation Spacey deliberately manipulated to get Rapp alone, and furthermore followed a period in which Spacey had befriended Rapp and so therefore would have been perfectly aware of Rapp's age. This was not a passing thing between a drunk guy and a stranger who turned out to be 14.
posted by Sequence at 12:10 PM on October 30 [63 favorites]


The article notes that Rapp told many people about it over the years, starting in the early 90s, including a boyfriend, various friends, his brother, and a lawyer who advised him that he had no case, so I don't think there's much evidence that he only just "started talking about it now." Now just happened to be the time he thought people outside of his personal circle might listen.
posted by pinwheel spark at 12:15 PM on October 30 [60 favorites]




Even if he did just start talking about it now, that would make him a fairly typical victim of sexual assault.
posted by maxsparber at 12:19 PM on October 30 [16 favorites]


YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE HOW DARE YOU TOUCH MY BABE ANTHONY
posted by Hermione Granger at 12:20 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


[Instigating comment and a bunch of replies removed, please reload and rerail.]
posted by cortex at 12:20 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]


I met someone in '95 who had a harrowing account of an encounter with this guy. And... remember when Spacey went to London? How about when he got beat up there?
posted by From Bklyn at 12:21 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


The casual implication that Spacey doesn't remember the incident because booze/years/gay makes the story more horrifying, not less. How often did Spacey get blackout drunk before sexual encounters? How many teenage boys did Spacey invite to adult parties at his apartment? For Rapp, this was an assault that profoundly affected his own personal and professional life for decades. But for Kevin Spacey, it was Tuesday!
posted by nicebookrack at 12:24 PM on October 30 [48 favorites]


Yeah, that thing upthread about how this is an outsized reaction for a single event? It's not a single event. You know how when the Weinstein thing broke, it was no surprise to anyone who'd paid attention to entertainment news? You may know that shit as "gossip", but that's how the whisper network functions, my dudes, and just because you slap a derisive label on it doesn't mean it has no value or purpose. This was as surprising to me as the Weinstein thing, because I pay attention when something keeps coming up over and over and over again over the span of a couple of decades, and people have been talking about Kevin Spacey for a long, long, long time.
posted by palomar at 12:27 PM on October 30 [32 favorites]


Just awful. I'm proud of Anthony Rapp for speaking out.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:27 PM on October 30 [17 favorites]


The Sad Truths Behind the L.A. Party Scene That Took Down Bryan Singer

Who is still conspicuously around.


And his accuser is a convicted con man, although the conviction came after he made (and then withdrew) his accusation. His lawyers ended up paying two of the men he accused. Interestingly, both the Defamer link and the BuzzFeed article that it links to occasionally mention that Singer actually took pains to make sure that the young men that he hooked up with were of legal age.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:29 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


Maybe a thread about admitted sexual assault isn't the best place to drop in a "but this one guy one time possibly made a false accusation" comment, especially considering what happens to accusers during the legal process.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:34 PM on October 30 [28 favorites]


The world is feeling so shitty today. I'll be inside of the Cheeseburger Emoji thread for the rest of the week, for my sanity and yours.
posted by Fizz at 12:35 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]


FUUUUUUUU! Now I am COMPLETELY barred from watching The Usual Suspects again!

(Sorry, it's been a completely crap week, and I make tasteless jokes at certain levels of discomfort.)
posted by Samizdata at 12:37 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


Count me someone as who more or less guessed that Spacey was gay (and before this, it was his own business if he wanted to be public or not), but other than the shady story from way back when in London, I had no idea about the predatory behaviour that seemed to be common knowledge. This definitely taints my view of him as an actor and human being. I would not be surprised if there are more of his victims coming forth in the days to come. And there is no amount of "I was drunk" when it comes to a underage victim. None.
posted by Kitteh at 12:44 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]


"that Spacey doesn't remember the incident because booze/years/gay makes the story more horrifying, not less. How often did Spacey get blackout drunk before sexual encounters? "

Being drunk does not typically absolve you of criminal responsibility. It certainly doesn't absolve you of moral responsibility, if you got drunk as a premeditated way to come across as less culpable.
posted by oddman at 12:49 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


My previous comment got deleted because it was a response to a now-deleted comment, so I just want to post this again:

As someone who was assaulted in a similar way to Rapp (although I wasn't underaged) 16 years ago, it stays with you. It's not that we think about it every day, or that we have massive levels of pain over it or whatever. But, this shit affects people. It isn't funny. It isn't a joke. And the fact that Rapp is only now (famous enough, recognizing a cultural moment and taking advantage of it, take your pick) talking about this publicly should put to rest the assumptions that this isn't a big deal. Of course it's a big deal. It's always a big deal when someone is sexually assaulted. And only by talking about it will we change the cultural norms around people being allowed to get away with sexual crimes for, literally, decades. Decades!
posted by Automocar at 12:52 PM on October 30 [48 favorites]


I did not remember when Spacey got mugged in London in 2004, so I looked it up online. Back in 2004 he first said he was mugged, then recanted and said he tripped while chasing someone who robbed his phone. While walking his dog. At 4AM. Then in 2007 PopBitch reported that what actually happened was he drunkenly propositioned a straight guy who punched him.

It's amazing how many old stories one finds when searching Google for information on Kevin Spacey and sexual assault or sexual harassment. Many stories going back years. Some of it is scurrilous "He's a secret homo" stuff, but a lot of it is either him being creepy or outright assaulting people. Like with Weinstein apparently people knew, but I had no idea it was talked about in public so frequently.
posted by Nelson at 1:03 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]


It feels like there's a level of casual homophobia that has weirdly protected Spacey and similar predators who go after targets in the gay community. "Sure there are salacious rumors about Kevin Spacey's gay exploits, but it's not really HORRIBLE because.…" Because it's normal for powerful, famous men to "hook up" with very young, inexperienced queer men, and that's always fully consensual with no iffy power imbalance? Because it's normal for gay men like Blind Item Spacey to "flirt" with a total stranger by groping him or offering him money for sex? Is this what a gay man in Hollywood is assumed to be?
posted by nicebookrack at 1:05 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]


Also there's a Family Guy joke from 12 years ago which in retrospect is really not funny at all.

30 Rock had jokes about Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby that implied they knew something before the accusations came out publicly, which they still include on their official YouTube channel. Often with these cases, you can find vague allusions and references in newspaper articles or various media texts that suggest foreknowledge, but the jokes are always indirect enough that people can laugh & not leave any wiser than they were before. The idea that "everybody knew" beforehand is always a lie, something used to enhance the status of those in the know vs. those who were left out.
posted by jonp72 at 1:09 PM on October 30 [7 favorites]


Because it's normal for gay men like Blind Item Spacey to "flirt" with a total stranger by groping him or offering him money for sex? Is this what a gay man in Hollywood is assumed to be?

I think predators like Spacey empower this narrative on purpose, because rendering it “normal” allows them more leeway, forces victims to second-guess themselves, and makes any authorities less likely to pursue prosecution. (Weinstein did something similar with his use of the casting couch trope.)

Also, based on the Hollywood-pedophile rings that Corey Haim and Corey Feldman both experienced and described, there are quite a few predators who benefit from keeping this stereotype alive, and keeping victims terrified.

The idea that "everybody knew" beforehand is always a lie, something used to enhance the status of those in the know vs. those who were left out.

This is entirely untrue.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:11 PM on October 30 [23 favorites]


with what was potentially a single incident?

It's almost never a single incident. If a person objectifies anyone enough to treat them so poorly, that's rarely if ever a category occupied by just one person; it's a foundational way of thinking about others.

This is why mass shooters are usually abusive partners.
posted by spindrifter at 1:12 PM on October 30 [20 favorites]


I would like to point out that, yes, sometimes gay men go after underage boys. It has nothing to do with gayness and everything to do with just being a creepy dude. Just like that one dad from high school who was waaayyy too into the girls on the cheerleading squad.

When straight people equate gayness with pedophilia, I guarantee you it’s because that’s how they see women and girls.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 1:13 PM on October 30 [23 favorites]


The idea that "everybody knew" beforehand is always a lie, something used to enhance the status of those in the know vs. those who were left out.

Or, y'know, the obvious result of how accusers and survivors are treated by those in power, the media, and bigots when it comes to sexual assault. But, sure, "being one of the cool kids" totally makes more sense.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:14 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]


In 1992, Sinead O'Connor openly called out the Catholic Church's sexual / physical abuse of children on SNL; she was right, but it still torpedoed her career and personal life. While abusers still have power, it's always a risk for survivors to speak out, because the consequences can be horrible. [/end Sinead O'Connor derail]
posted by nicebookrack at 1:22 PM on October 30 [111 favorites]


The idea that "everybody knew" beforehand is always a lie, something used to enhance the status of those in the know vs. those who were left out.

Or, y'know, the obvious result of how accusers and survivors are treated by those in power, the media, and bigots when it comes to sexual assault. But, sure, "being one of the cool kids" totally makes more sense.


You are totally missing my point. It is about how media will not always report about all the bad acts that they know about until a long period after those bad acts have taken place. What bugs me is that you can always look back at news articles or even TV shows/films etc. etc. & there are always nudge-nudge-wink-wink references to absolutely horrible behavior that you can find, but the warnings are never explicit enough to prevent new victims from being victimized. Lack of access to "whisper networks" does play a major role in who gets victimized and who does not.
posted by jonp72 at 1:24 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]


Lack of access to "whisper networks" does play a major role in who gets victimized and who does not.

Whisper networks exist when no other form of accountability is available to victims. They're not a popularity contest or an exclusive club.
posted by Emmy Rae at 1:27 PM on October 30 [29 favorites]


jfc. can no one in hollywood keep their goddman hands to themselves?

everything is goddamn fucking lie.
posted by sio42 at 1:29 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]


Netflix to end House of Cards following Kevin Spacey sexual abuse allegations; The show's sixth season will be its last

Netflix is absolutely shocked over this story, I'm sure. Completely blindsided!
posted by Beholder at 1:30 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]


Kevin Spacey himself weaponized gay panic and the closet to find his victims. It is the same mechanism for any pedophile, you find the community that will honor you and disbelieve your victims (and will encourage silence in your victims). Then he used the ace card he's kept in his pocket this entire time, and weaponized the closet, gay panic, and coming out to deflect responsibility when the first accusation fell. He started by targeting young men and boys in the theater community in New York during the AIDS crisis. Throughout his entire career he's kept alive the fallacy that "privacy" is the respected answer for gay actors who would rather "concentrate on the work." He purposefully sought out vulnerable victims, ensured their silence, turned the media machine to applaud him for his 'discretion,' and repeated these actions for decades. He is craven in a way that people haven't even begun to deal with yet.

As for who knew what when - just listen to someone who worked in the West End at the same time as Spacey.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:32 PM on October 30 [53 favorites]


jonp72 is not criticising whisper networks, they're criticising shows like 30 Rock and Family Guy that mine the whisper networks for cheap laughs.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:33 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]


I'm seeing a few folks I know posting that Family Guy clip with a "Wow, Seth Macfarlane was so prescient!". I'll be honest: it's grossing me out if only because they're posting it for a cheap laugh, and some pretty clear correlation of homosexuality with paedophilia.
posted by Kitteh at 1:35 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]


Whisper networks exist when no other form of accountability is available to victims. They're not a popularity contest or an exclusive club.

Some women get left out, not because of unpopularity, but simply because those networks are just too informal to cover everybody who needs coverage. On the other hand, there was the following post from a previous thread on whisper networks.

Slut-shaming or excluding women from the whisper network simply because people feel they aren't "team players" or something. Very much this. The women at my college victimized by the one guy everyone knew was dangerous were women ostracized by other women for being sluts or queer or not rich enough, from the wrong families or just weird. And when they tried to warn each other, they suffered that much more.

I don't know how to fix this, but I know that the answer is not women stepping up and shielding one another. It's men shunning those men who assault. It's men examining themselves to know why they assault. This onus is on men.
posted by crush at 4:38 PM on October 21 [15 favorites −] [!] (cite)
posted by jonp72 at 1:36 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


And Bryan Singer can fucking choke. There are pictures of his parties. There are multiple accounts of trading access for sex. Even if every single young man he's coerced has been exactly 18 years & 1 day or above, he is absolutely also a predator. People won't talk about it because all us queers would rather being a predator not be equated with gayness and men like Singer trade on that to be horrific.

The LGBT community as a whole needs to deal with age disparate relationships and abuse (of power or directly) and how it harms the youngest in our groups, but it's almost impossible to have that conversation in public because of all the dangerous murderous homophobes around.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:37 PM on October 30 [34 favorites]


Stop making excuses for sexual predators. Jesus wept!
posted by elsietheeel at 1:42 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


FFS, a 14 year old?
posted by jeff-o-matic at 1:43 PM on October 30


jonp72, if your goal is to teach women that whisper networks are fallible, trust me: WE KNOW.

What is your point? Because I honestly have no idea.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:44 PM on October 30 [22 favorites]


I'm going to front load this here because it's coming across twitter now - it does not matter if Spacey was a victim in his younger years. Rapists have lost the right to use their past trauma to excuse anything once they pass it on. It also does a fucking number on victims - like we're supposed to excuse them or like we might turn into them. Please just avoid the temptation to go down that road.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:45 PM on October 30 [28 favorites]


Often with these cases, you can find vague allusions and references in newspaper articles or various media texts that suggest foreknowledge, but the jokes are always indirect enough that people can laugh & not leave any wiser than they were before. The idea that "everybody knew" beforehand is always a lie, something used to enhance the status of those in the know vs. those who were left out.

Wow. This fundamentally misunderstands why these things stay rumors.

I've been assaulted. I've had friends who have been assaulted. I've spread gossip about men sexually assaulting other women. When I talk about my personal experience or my friends experience, I am met with skepticism. It's a personal vendetta. Bitter ex. I haven't heard both sides, so it would be unfair to act on this information.

The further I am from the information I'm conveying, the more it's accepted. As gossip, it doesn't have to be true, or acted upon. So you don't immediately dismiss it. It stays with you. And maybe helps you decide not to be alone with him, not because he's a rapist. But just in case.

I am struck by the people who say that most men don't sexually assault other people. And I think that's mostly true. But I think a main driver of not believing assault victims is because we don't want to acknowledge that a lot of men do. I dislike us seeing them as monsters, which implies a finite containable number that could just be rooted out and equality restored.
posted by politikitty at 1:56 PM on October 30 [19 favorites]


30 Rock had jokes about Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby that implied they knew

Neither of these gags "implied" so much as tossed off common industry knowledge. Can I say that again

Common Industry Knowledge

These are not secrets, go to the library, histories of previous generations it was just known, sometimes warned, sometimes used or sold "as an in" probably mostly by enablers. To be clear I'm not defending it any more than dangling a cat over an open flame for fun (don't google for it) but it was a fact and continues to be a fact that large portions of society let it go, silently enabled and hid the behavior and hopefully at least helped friends survive. Not uncommon, not rare.
posted by sammyo at 1:56 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]


I'm getting really tired of people on twitter treating whisper networks the same way they treat rumors about Richard Gere and a fondness for rodents. I'm just a nobody with almost zero connections to Hollywood and I knew about the rumors swirling around Whedon, Weinstein, Spacey, and Singer for YEARS. (And more. Lots more.) It's not just ubiquity, because if that was all everyone would believe the Gere nonsense. There's a quality that I can't describe or even name that makes one oft-repeated rumor credible and actionable on a personal level and another not. Like, if I HAPPENED to be a young man who got an opportunity to meet Kevin Spacey after a theatre production, I would have passed based on my gut feeling about the rumors I'd heard.

I do think these rumors tend to drift to people who are already interested in an industry, though. Like, when I was a young sysadmin during the dotcom boom I knew ALL the super famous internet guys to avoid based on these rumors. But anyone who didn't need to know, didn't. I'd tell the billing chick to avoid being alone with Super Famous in Certain Circles Mr. X because he's handsy but I'd never tell my boss or any of his peers or anything like that because the blowback to me personally would be outsized to the "crime" of "spreading rumors" about a dude that everyone is enamored by. And who the fuck am I? Just a chick who can run a command line and fine tune the shit out of a DNS server. Easily replaceable.
posted by xyzzy at 1:58 PM on October 30 [34 favorites]


Move over, Harvey Weinstein: It's Kevin Spacey's Turn

It's also still Harvey's turn.


And Woody's, and Bill's, and Roman's, etc.
posted by non canadian guy at 1:59 PM on October 30 [10 favorites]


It doesn't even take money or fame for the status quo to protect abusers. How many of us have a relative we know to not be alone with and at family gatherings we keep an eye on them and others around them to make sure no one disappears, not even for a second?

I also know this is a bigger issue and not at all because of whatever Kevin Spacey wants to claim as a sexual orientation, but this is focused on vulnerable gay male victims and it would be good i think if we didn't turn this into a catch all that ends up focusing on women victims. We rarely give men the spaces to discuss these things and they deserve it.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 2:03 PM on October 30 [29 favorites]


It doesn't even take money or fame for the status quo to protect abusers. How many of us have a relative we know to not be alone with and at family gatherings we keep an eye on them and others around them to make sure no one disappears, not even for a second?

IOW, a missing stair?
posted by non canadian guy at 2:09 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]


It's heartbreaking to think of young Anthony, who would personally know struggles and issues facing the gay community and gay individuals, deciding what to say to whom. Not only was he a young relatively unknown person in the industry, but the difficulty of any victim to disclose their experience, plus having to basically out Kevin Spacey, knowing he would experience some of the homophobic blowback himself... what an awful position to put someone in, on top of the abuse itself.
posted by Emmy Rae at 2:17 PM on October 30 [7 favorites]


We're going to see Bryan Singer recycled as if it is a secret before long too, I'd bet.
posted by Artw at 2:17 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


Am I understanding this correctly, that Netflix is still planning on showing the final season of House of Cards anyway?

I mean, damn...I hope not.
posted by 4ster at 2:23 PM on October 30


I was just thinking the other day how much I liked him in Baby Driver and now... another film I'll probably never watch again.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:34 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


I can pinpoint the exact moment in Anthony Rapp's interview when my heart broke:
In the days following the party, Rapp said he considered reaching out to Spacey to talk about what had happened. But he never did, and he has no memory of ever telling his mother about it, either. For Rapp, if he had told her right away, it would have meant a larger discussion about his own sexual orientation at 14, and he wasn't ready to do that.

Even at 14, Rapp knew enough of rape culture / homophobia / toxic masculinity to fear that if he admitted to being sexually assaulted by a man, his mother might question whether Rapp's sexuality had anything to do with his being assaulted: like being molested caused him to be gay, or being gay attracted his molestation.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:36 PM on October 30 [72 favorites]


Am I understanding this correctly, that Netflix is still planning on showing the final season of House of Cards anyway?

You mean the company that produced the documentary of Woody Allen, and was granted 'extraordinary' access to him in the process? Yeah, I imagine they will be showing the final season of HoC.
posted by el io at 2:38 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


I want to see these people gone... careers ended. Weinstein, Spacey... and all the rest.

But there you have Woody Allen still knocking out his films - the latest about an affair with a teenager. Polanski happy in Europe.

Someone pointed out on twitter that Winona Ryder had her career destroyed for a decade for shop lifting. Shop lifting!

Seven's a great film, Glengarry Glen Ross too, The Usual Suspects... can seen me watching them again soon, if ever.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:40 PM on October 30 [9 favorites]


An Open Secret came out a few years ago, but it only played a week at indie houses in NY and LA....it was never picked up for distribution. Vimeo has a pg-13 version; I'm not sure if this means words were bleeped or scenes cut.

The Guardian piece mentions the Briggs initiative; I remember a commercial depicting a female teacher sitting at her desk claiming that she'd lose her job if it was voted in, but not why. I think it would have been much better had it shown parents of kids she had taught who had succeeded. Do any other CA natives remember it? I haven't been able to find it.
posted by brujita at 2:51 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


...posting that Family Guy clip with a "Wow, Seth Macfarlane was so prescient!"
In the case of MacFarlane's Weinstein joke, it wasn't "so prescient" so much as heard it from Jessica Barth. I don't know what MacFarlane heard about Spacey, but I wouldn't rule anything out.

So even though
the jokes are always indirect enough that people can laugh & not leave any wiser than they were before
The reason might not be because
The idea that "everybody knew" beforehand is always a lie
As a couple alternate hypotheses to "everybody's lying", I'd suggest "victims don't want to face down retaliatory libel lawsuits" and "victims' friends don't want to out them without permission".
they're criticising shows like 30 Rock and Family Guy that mine the whisper networks for cheap laughs
That's better than nothing. Think of it as Soviet humor - gallows humor that subversively allows the joker to spread ideas that they might otherwise not be able to say at all. Whisper networks might be great, but unless they're handing out warning lists to every new ingenue (including male ingenues - is there no masculine or gender-neutral version of that word?), it seems like the more exposure the better. There's a tension between "failing to spread warnings widely enough hurts future victims" and "spreading warnings too widely earns you blacklisting or other retaliation", but Tina Fey and Seth MacFarlane found a third option, and if that ever successfully helped a potential victim then they earned some cheap laughs.
posted by roystgnr at 2:51 PM on October 30 [20 favorites]


Kevin Spacey won an Oscar for basically recreating this event in American Beauty, which is utterly horrifying.
posted by dng at 3:00 PM on October 30 [30 favorites]


I still haven't forgotten McFarlane's "We Saw Your Boobs".
posted by brujita at 3:01 PM on October 30 [23 favorites]


Anthony Rapp, when he was 15 years old, played Daryl in Adventures in Babysitting, in case you were curious about whether anyone could have mistaken him to be an adult. Or if you just wanted to be able to gauge how gross this incident was.
posted by skoosh at 3:13 PM on October 30 [13 favorites]


Don't forget that in 1997, the powerful William Morris talent agency announced a blacklist of Esquire magazine over an article suggesting Kevin Spacey was gay, and a 2000 issue of Star magazine including photos of Spacey with a male companion was essentially erased from media archives without a word.

If Hollywood enablers for Spacey were willing and able to bring this much powerful backroom pressure just to silence rumors that "Kevin Spacey likes men," what lengths would Spacey and his enablers go to squash something like "Kevin Spacey groped / raped / assaulted / molested men and boys?" How scary would that be to an alleged victim, witnessing that level of power?
posted by nicebookrack at 3:34 PM on October 30 [15 favorites]


Kevin Spacey won an Oscar for basically recreating this event in American Beauty, which is utterly horrifying.

Don't forget Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil.
posted by rhizome at 3:41 PM on October 30 [7 favorites]


The LGBT community as a whole needs to deal with age disparate relationships and abuse (of power or directly) and how it harms the youngest in our groups, but it's almost impossible to have that conversation in public because of all the dangerous murderous homophobes around.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Rape culture manifests differently than in heterosexual contexts and the above tends to be one of them.
posted by PMdixon at 3:46 PM on October 30 [9 favorites]


Am I understanding this correctly, that Netflix is still planning on showing the final season of House of Cards anyway?

What’s worse, the sixth season has only been in production for a couple of weeks, so they’re going to let them go through production and post-production and then air it instead of shutting it down immediately.
posted by Automocar at 3:47 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


cool, they can write him out and let Robin Wright bring the series to its conclusion
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:51 PM on October 30 [25 favorites]




As I noted over in the Weinstein thread... Goddammit, Spacey, you fool, you just gave culture warriors a bunch of hot fresh ammo for "OMIGERDGAYSARETOTALLYPEDOS" because you're trying to muddy the waters about how you were a harassing drunkard creeping on underage boys. It's something that needs to be addressed, but you're NOT HELPING the issue.

The folks at sorrywatch did a good piece hating his statement, too. I'll be over here trying to set Spacey on fire with my brain.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:58 PM on October 30


Twitter has restricted my account for talking about this. They say I'm being "abusive" by calling out abuse.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:02 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]


Spacey isn't trying to help. He's actively continuing to weaponize homophobia as a way to not be held accountable for his decades of abuse.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:03 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]


What makes Spacey's response a blatant non-apology/dodge? If he genuinely doesn't remember, it seems very accommodating to admit the possibility at all. What would be a more appropriate response?
posted by Coventry at 4:18 PM on October 30


a) We have known for decades that Spacey likes young, "straight" acting men.
b) Rapp went to a party with all adults by himself. (none of this is Rapp's fault, this was expected behaviour at this point, no one asks or deserves to have what happened happened). No one should fuck 14 year olds.
c) Spacey made a shitty, drunken play. Spacey must have made a million shitty drunken plays---http://defamer.gawker.com/people-keep-telling-us-about-kevi…. Often to people who were 18 adjacent. He didn't seem to care if they were younger or older (from the information we have his taste tends to run to 17-21)
d) So, Spacey is a creep, and a lech, and someone who is not careful about consent in a myriad of ways, including age limits, plying people with liquor, and not listening to people who say no.
e) But it's the ongoing culture of entitlement--its protecting powerful men, allowing them to have what they want without consequence. It's that the first instinct of seeing a kid at a party, is not why is this kid here, or how do we get this kid home, or how do we make sure this kid is safe, but let this kid feel lonely and holed up in a bedroom watching tv until we are ready to take advantage.
f) The whole industry is rapacious. It's goal is to eat children alive and has been from the beginning, finical chicanery from Jackie Coogan to Ariel Winter, Sexual impropriety, cutting back on school in order to meet deadlines, physical abuse. Hollywood refuses to view children as children.
g) Also, why does it take us decades to know this. Why is Salva still working, why has Singer not been charged
posted by PinkMoose at 4:21 PM on October 30 [8 favorites]


I don't have anything left to add, seeing as how we've had this conversation about Weinstein, about Allen, about Sandusky.

But I did want to share my inktober for today with you guys ❤
posted by FirstMateKate at 4:26 PM on October 30 [10 favorites]


I always figured Spacey was gay, but I tended to discount the underage allegations, simply because, at the time when I first heard the allegations, there were still a lot of people in the mainstream who openly equated homosexuality with pedophilia and statutory rape. It's horrible to think how much he's just done to reinvigorate that hideous old canard.
posted by praemunire at 4:32 PM on October 30 [11 favorites]


30 Rock had jokes about Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby that implied they knew something before the accusations came out publicly, which they still include on their official YouTube channel.

I'm now wondering about The Crazy World Of Arthur Brown. As in, were there rumours about them, or were they substituted into the script for someone with a more aggressive legal team about whom there were.
posted by acb at 4:38 PM on October 30


He knew people would discount the assault allegations because of homophobia and he played into that for decades. His apology actively equated his "I don't remember it but if I did I'm sure I was drunk" with "these rumors exist because I'm gay." He knows who he is. He knows what he's done and he's still willing to deeply harm gay men around him who are just trying to live their lives.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:49 PM on October 30 [7 favorites]


non-apology/dodge
In case you're genuinely asking and not trolling, it's a non-apology/dodge because he says "oh I was drunk and don't really remember" and then immediately follows it up with "oh hey I'm gay" as a shield for his behavior. That way he and his supporters can decry anyone calling him to the carpet as homophobic. He'll use his famous "private" nature as a hammer. "See, this is why I don't tell the media things, because I am attacked for being a gay man."
posted by xyzzy at 4:51 PM on October 30 [8 favorites]


[Couple comments deleted; if you don't think it's important, just skip the thread and go read something else.]
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:54 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]


You mean the company that produced the documentary of Woody Allen, and was granted 'extraordinary' access to him in the process? Yeah, I imagine they will be showing the final season of HoC.

Didn't they also buy one of his movies, as an exclusive, and chop it up into a TV series?
posted by Beholder at 4:57 PM on October 30


Amazon has been the ones who have brought in the most abusers, but I wouldn't put it past Netflix to get involved too.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 5:04 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


dodge/non-apology

A better response would have addressed the offence, talked about the various ways it was wrong, addressed the impact on the victim, talked about what changes he would make going forward.

He would not have left himself an out (it was so long ago, I don't remember, I was drunk) and he would not have spent most of the statement coming out of the closet, in an obviously deliberate attempt to make *that* the headline, rather than the terrible crime he sort of admitted to committing.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 5:11 PM on October 30 [7 favorites]


I am so, so glad to see so much pushback about Spacey deflecting with coming out of the closet, here and elsewhere. Because that's some unacceptable bullshit.

It's an acceptable deflection or explanation to questions like "Why are you depressed?" or "Why do you drink so much?" or whatever.

It is emphatically not an acceptable response to "Why did you assault and/or rape a minor!?"

The small silver lining to this is that the reaction here from the public is basically "Dude, no one cares if you're gay. We all kind of knew it anyway. While Hollywood-the-Industry is still shitty, it isn't what it used to be and it isn't a career killer to be openly gay."

It would be pretty amazing if this #metoo movement exposed a huge swath of abusers throughout the US from politics to entertainment to education and everywhere else and caused as many of them as possible to be shamed right out of jobs, power and polite and civil public life.

On some levels this is starting to happen. I reiterate cautiously and hopefully to myself that revolutions tend to be lead by angry women.

BTW, is there such a thing as an support network or group for victims of assault or abuse that perform functions like, say, providing women-directed escort/support services for things like court appearances, moral support for advocacy for filing charges or some kind of adhoc witness/victim protection? Like those bikers that protect children in abuse trials or provide body guard services for abortion clinics? I know RAINN exists but I think that tends to be more on the therapy/psychological support side of things.

If not, can this be a thing?

posted by loquacious at 5:15 PM on October 30 [20 favorites]


Every time one of these stories comes out, people say "well there have been rumors for years." But as a person who doesn't follow celebrity news much, i never hear any of these rumors.

So my question is, for how many other celebrities is there an open creepiness secret that "everybody" knows? Is there like a list or something?
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:16 PM on October 30 [16 favorites]


I wonder: whose turn it will be next week?
posted by littlejohnnyjewel at 6:10 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]


for how many other celebrities is there an open creepiness secret that "everybody" knows? Is there like a list or something?

There used to be a single page that pulled together a whole bunch of blind list items and rumors, not so much concerned with single incidents as general characteristics of the person. I haven't seen it for many years, and haven't really looked for it, as a) it was linked to some sort of malware server the last time I saw it, and b) it lumped in some things of genuine concern (i.e. missing stairs people) with stuff of questionable nature ("poor hygiene" seemed to be common) and just noting that so-and-so was in the closet. That's the closest I've seen to a master list; otherwise, it's various blind item blogs.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:13 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]


I haven't seen a modern "master list" but you see a bunch of this stuff as blinds-that-are-barely-nearsighted as well as pile-ons in various pop culture communities. Like, you'll say, "oh I can't wait to see so-and-so in the next Avengers movie!" and then someone will come in with 22 links to stories about so-and-so's alleged predatory predilections. Kind of like Marion Zimmer Bradley recs on Metafilter.
posted by xyzzy at 6:26 PM on October 30


What makes Spacey's response a blatant non-apology/dodge?

The "oh hey, I'm gay" part. That has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand.
posted by splitpeasoup at 6:44 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]


how many other celebrities is there an open creepiness secret that "everybody" knows? Is there like a list or something?
This is surely answered somewhere in anon forums like ONTD and fandom-anon, but I don't know the waters well enough to navigate. From my hesitant knowledge on Blind Item People (who I should note are legally and personally distinct from real people I don't know at all): Blind Item Tom Cruise is a controlling Scientologist antichrist who is a gay and/or asexual robot with contract marriages; Blind Item Ben Affleck is a superhero alcoholic; Blind Item Superteen co-stars co-created a cult; and every celebrity pregnancy ever is through a surrogate and/or a calculated move to extend a Fake Relationship Contract for more $$$.

Off-topic Example/Caution of blind items / gossip being untrustworthy: here's a nasty one disparaging actress Leslie Jones for her reaction to racist harassment.[/end off-topic Leslie Jones derail]

So everyone knows that gossip is inherently biased and untrustworthy, so warning rumors get shared among whisper networks without the legal threats and victim-blaming that come with formal open accusations, because everyone knows that gossip is biased and untrustworthy. The ideas that make the stories dubious--"It's just gossip"--are also what give it protection.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:51 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]




Kevin Spacey won an Oscar for basically recreating this event in American Beauty, which is utterly horrifying.

Don't forget Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil.


Or, hell, Working Girl ("Bob from Arbitrage").
posted by non canadian guy at 6:58 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


how many other celebrities is there an open creepiness secret that "everybody" knows? Is there like a list or something?

ONTD recently had a series on the trash men in Hollywood that covers some of them (cw: some of these have descriptions of violence or sexual assault):
Part 1: Sean Penn, Johnny Depp, Michael Fassbender, Kirk Douglas, Ryan O'Neal
Part 2: Casey and Ben Affleck, Marlon Brando, Mel Gibson
Part 3: Michael Bay, Josh Brolin, Bryan Singer, Christian Slater
Part 4: Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Victor Salva, Alfred Hitchcock
posted by supercrayon at 7:06 PM on October 30 [25 favorites]


NOT JOSH BROLIN AND CHRISTIAN SLATER. Dammit. Dammit, dammit, dammit.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:20 PM on October 30


NOT JOSH BROLIN AND CHRISTIAN SLATER. Dammit. Dammit, dammit, dammit.

Brolin has a drinking problem and a being-a-fighty-dick-when-he's-drunk problem and also a major thinking it's not his problem, problem. Also not a secret.
posted by fshgrl at 7:34 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


This sucks.

I don't really feel one way or another about him coming out. I think he saw the writing on the wall that this going public would blow the door open on his personal closet and was probably advised to just come out with that immediately so it wouldn't be another "revelation". Gay people can be rapists and abusers just like straight people can, unfortunately.

I've long had a bad association with Kevin Spacey because he was so repulsive in American Beauty - but I've had even more anger at Sam Mendes for making it. What's up with Alan Ball for having written it? If it was supposed to be somehow critical of sexual abuse of teens, it failed. More likely it was not trying to be critical of that. It's almost weird to me now that Spacey starred in it given how much it mirrors his own behavior. But Hollywood elite: I guess a life of having limitless wealth and being surrounded by yes men and ass kissers is bad for people. Not that everyone in Hollywood is an abuser, but there are a lot of structural problems there that allow this stuff to go totally unchecked, as we're learning.
posted by latkes at 7:46 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]


Gross.

So about a decade or so ago I was heading the props dept. at a summer theater program for Broadway and Off-Broadway show developmental workshops. We had a lot of A list actors, directors, and playwrights, some college age interns, but also a number of "apprentices" in all departments who were high schoolers who's paid to take part (sort of like summer stock camp but with stars).

Anyway, one weekend after a short run of one of the shows there was a small outdoor party to celebrate. It took place in a dim courtyard and all of us department heads were instructed to make sure we didn't serve alcohol to the smattering of underage kids present. So of course the keg is in the darkest corner, and at one point I glance over and see a few teenage boys milling around it with their empty cups out waiting for them to be filled. There's some guy who I don't recognize in a baseball cap trying to get the new tap to work . He turns and looks up at me and sees my expression (I don't want to be a cop, but we'd all been warned not to serve the kids) and gives me a really sheepish look that then turns authoritative and says "It's fine, we're all fine. I take responsibility". and starts filling a cup and I suddenly recognize- --him. So I just walk away.

So yeah, it was a weird moment then that hearing this now I feel fairly ill about.
posted by stagewhisper at 7:56 PM on October 30 [17 favorites]


Several years ago, I decided I would no longer watch movies or consume media written, starring or produced by known sexual predators. No Rob Lowe, no Roman Polanski, no Woody Allen, no Bill Cosby, no Trump on the evening news. Now with Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey on the list, I just might run out of things to watch.

Maybe after they're all dead.
posted by Soliloquy at 8:11 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]


Wait, Rob Lowe too? But I'm still halfway through watching Parks & Rec, what'd he do? ... Googles ... Well shoot. Life is just all Cosbies and milkshake ducks these days isn't it.
posted by traveler_ at 8:46 PM on October 30


I've said this before and I'll say it again: the world and the culture didn't suddenly become this way, it's always been this way. The vast majority of these things happened a long time ago. They didn't happen just to upset people now. It's not fair to the victims to act like this is somehow a result of people finding it safe(r, still not "safe") to talk about. Any survivor can tell you life has always been milkshake ducks or whatever.
posted by colorblock sock at 9:05 PM on October 30 [16 favorites]


life has always been milkshake ducks
Yeah. Let's hear it for Rapist Clark Gable!

As much as it's horrible and depressing when revelations like this come out, it's also a sign that society is changing for the better. We'll never know all the horrible things that went on in the Golden Age of Hollywood, when studio fixers worked full-time to hide the bodies and pay off the victims and leave no trace.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:22 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]


One of the blind items alluded to Spacey sexually harassing his PAs and other young members of the crew, which made me suddenly realize that even as a very non-Hollywood type, I'd actually heard that allegation before (can't remember where). I have a feeling Rapp won't be the last person to speak out.

But Hollywood elite: I guess a life of having limitless wealth and being surrounded by yes men and ass kissers is bad for people.

This assault predated his ascent into the Hollywood elite - according to the Buzzfeed article, his career didn't really take off until a couple of years later. I'm not saying wealth and privilege don't embolden people but the problem of abuse is way bigger than Hollywood.

I actually wrote "incident" first instead of assault and had to go back and change it. I think Sequence is totally right upthread about abusers taking advantage of this urge to euphemise -- if you read the Buzzfeed story you can see evidence of Spacey grooming Rapp from the get-go.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:04 PM on October 30 [4 favorites]


With American Beauty, the problem is not even just that Spacey's character comes very close to having sex with an extremely underage girl.

Remember the rest of the plot? Where the next-door neighbor thinks that Spacey's character is gay because he thinks Spacey's character is having sex with the neighbor's own teenage son, so the neighbor, internally conflicted by his own homophobia, makes a move on Spacey and is rejected because Spacey's character is Totally, Completely Straight? And then the neighbor kills Spacey? Whom the narrative then treats as something of a martyr because it was so Tragic?

God, that fucker Spacey must have been laughing all the way to the Oscars. He got to be portrayed as both Totally, Completely Straight-- murdered by a deranged homosexual in Classical Hollywood style, yet-- and the hero of a narrative in which his character was very close to having sex with an extremely underage person. (It's okay, according to the movie, because he stops at the last minute.)

Starting to wonder how much Ball and Mendes know about Spacey's actual life.
posted by Rush-That-Speaks at 11:09 PM on October 30 [17 favorites]


sio42: jfc. can no one in hollywood keep their goddman hands to themselves?

The stories we’re seeing in the media are about people in Hollywood because the victims are famous and many of the accusers are famous, but, like, I hate to break it to you, this is happening everywhere. Every day. Nonstop. Everywhere men are in a position of power, they are raping, molesting, and abusing. Nowhere, nothing is free of this. From Miramax HQ to the tiny, windowless office of the Assistant Manager of your local supermarket, every place is a crime scene. Your office building. The house down the street. Everywhere.

And the not-famous perpetrators are actually safer than the famous ones, because nobody gives a shit about Dickface Abuser or Jane Victim except maybe the immediate family—certainly not Twitter or Facebook or Tumblr or WaPo or NYT or or or. Waaaaaaaay more people outside of the entertainment industry are abused than in the industry. They just don’t have the power to get Buzzfeed’s attention. And even if they did, what’s Buzzfeed gonna go live with? Ten Women You Have Never Heard Of Were Raped By This Guy You Never Heard Of?

Yes, Anthony Rapp was brave to speak up, and what happened to him is terrible. Now think about people who report their abusers who don’t have starring roles on tv shows. Who report their bosses. Who report their uncles. Who report the local hero. Whose only option is to report to the police, who ask them what they were wearing and how much they’d had to drink. Who want to know why the victim would want to ruin a good man’s life like that.

Allowing these current news items to lead us to the conclusion that Hollywood is exclusively this awful would be failing every victim, every survivor. Sorry, but we really need to do better than that.
posted by tzikeh at 12:12 AM on October 31 [79 favorites]


because the victims are famous and many of the accusers are famous,

Sorry, that should read “the abusers are famous and many of the victims are famous.” Couldn’t get in under the edit window.
posted by tzikeh at 12:21 AM on October 31


My feeling is that Famous People speaking out about their abuse gives courage and validation to the not famous who have experienced the same.

The same principle is why professional athletes are kneeling during the national anthem.
posted by brujita at 12:48 AM on October 31 [14 favorites]


Allowing these current news items to lead us to the conclusion that Hollywood is exclusively this awful would be failing every victim, every survivor. Sorry, but we really need to do better than that.

Exactly - the rates to which average women and gay men are subject to sexual violence in their lifetime is sufficiently high to suggest where there are men, there are men who are doing this shit. Powerful, non-powerful, famous or obscure, men of all shapes and types are committing these acts and trying to isolate a particular group as the problem ignores the fact that the problem is EVERYWHERE.
posted by notorious medium at 6:41 AM on October 31 [4 favorites]


I feel most badly for the victim(s), of course, but I also think about all the innocent bystanders whose livelihood is impacted by the abuser's actions. There will be a lot of people put out of work when Netflix cancels House of Cards. I don't know how easy it is to just go get another job for, idk, some random camera person, but at least for a period of time they're not gonna get paid because Spacey was an evil shithead. There were likely people who enabled him but Joe from Craft Services wasn't one of them, nor was (I assume) Robin Wright.
posted by AFABulous at 7:25 AM on October 31 [4 favorites]


I honestly don't know how people like Robin Wright didn't know. Maybe like others she thought his attentions were creepy but not criminal? But also, by all accounts the show was coming to its natural end and they're still shooting this season, so no one out of work there, not even the abuser. I just saw they're working on spinoffs, so it looks like even more people will be employed.

No survivor is obligated to tell their story, but with no other victims coming forward I imagine Spacey will get the Mel Gibson treatment and he'll be back on our screens in about 4 or 5 years. Maybe he'll direct, or move to smaller, independent roles. Maybe he'll move to France? I hear Polanski is getting accolades and acclaim there.

Rapp's career is likely solid and will continue moving forward. He's an incredible singular talent and I am excited to see where his career goes from here - but the issue of him seeing his abuser everywhere? That's not over. They'll be at the same award show again within the decade.

I wish I had hope to offer. But no, I don't think anyone will lose work over this in the long run.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 7:53 AM on October 31 [7 favorites]


Ugh my gay facebook has been too full of people not quite defending Spacey. The most recent one said that when he was 15 he was really upset that this hot dude with a rep for hitting on kids never hit on him. Like it's his great regret that cool rock dude didn't abuse him. Then he tried to redirect the conversation to women's struggles, because it's not a big deal when it happens to dudes.

You are all right, this shit IS everywhere and if possible it's even more hidden and acceptable when it happens in the gay world. Fuck Kevin Spacey for his crimes, fuck Kevin Spacey for conflating homosexuality with abuse, and fuck every gay who thinks this is normal behaviour.
posted by yellowbinder at 7:57 AM on October 31 [3 favorites]


First thing I did when I heard about this was turn to my Boyfriend and say 'Well Rapp has the distinction of being the *first* public accuser'.

Because there are always more.

Always.

I am so goddamn tired of this shit-show and feel deep sympathy for and anger on behalf of Rapp having to carry this awful truth around with him all these years.
posted by Faintdreams at 8:08 AM on October 31 [3 favorites]


In case you were wondering, Andy Dick is still a piece of shit.
posted by Nelson at 8:47 AM on October 31 [5 favorites]


In case you were wondering, Andy Dick is still a piece of shit.

Several years ago I got to see a private performance of Asssscat with about ~250 people from all around the US and Canada. As their warmup/ice breaker/crowd work section they asked the question, "Who here has had a personal negative interaction with Andy Dick?"

6 people stood up.
posted by mmascolino at 9:00 AM on October 31 [5 favorites]


This assault predated his ascent into the Hollywood elite - according to the Buzzfeed article, his career didn't really take off until a couple of years later. I'm not saying wealth and privilege don't embolden people but the problem of abuse is way bigger than Hollywood.

Yep. I wrote a comment that got deleted for some reason along these lines but think about it- this was a 14 year old kid who first of all was invited and attended a party with alcohol until the wee hours at which he was the only kid. And then was left alone there with a man that was known to be at least sexually interested in and aggressive with young men (giving the adults around this situation the benefit of the doubt here that they didn't know an assault on a minor was likely). That kid was a successful actor. He had parents, an agent, probably a chaperone, a tutor etc all looking out for him. But he still ended up in a nightclub at age 14 and the only minor at a grown up party. Worst of all- there were other people, adults, at that party that left him there alone at 1am in NYC- who does that? Put the kid in a taxi and take him home to his mother. He was too young to understand what was going on but other people weren't.

I grew up near a celebrity enclave and believe me this happens, and people see it and they look away. And then the victims get ostracized as they are a reminder of people's personal failings.
posted by fshgrl at 9:04 AM on October 31 [4 favorites]




Look at Drew Barrymore.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:27 AM on October 31


Automocar: "What’s worse, the sixth season has only been in production for a couple of weeks, so they’re going to let them go through production and post-production and then air it instead of shutting it down immediately."

To be fair the sixth season is going to represent rent and food for a lot of people. It would be better if Spacey's character dies some ignoble death in the first episode; like choking to death on a candy corn.
posted by Mitheral at 9:50 AM on October 31 [7 favorites]




That list is missing Tariq Ramadan, who is accused of rape by two women (one of them had told the story before but without naming him) and of harassment by a third woman. It's making headlines in France but not in the UK for some reason, even though the 5-time "top global thinker" is a professor at Oxford.
posted by elgilito at 11:05 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]




I know there was some criticism for them not shutting down production yesterday, but considering how many non-asshole regular human working people draw their livelihoods from this show, taking an extra day to make that decision and come up with a game plan wasn't so bad.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:29 AM on October 31 [7 favorites]


Production on House Of Cards has been suspended indefinitely
A+ AVClub comment: "If only there was a convenient metaphor for how all this is collapsing."
posted by nicebookrack at 11:54 AM on October 31 [42 favorites]


I just read that list of predators facing accusations and consequences. One that blew my mind was Ben Affleck. I can't imagine what he does off-camera when he sexually assaulted a reporter on camera. What the living fuck?

It makes me wonder if there are conversations going on in the entertainment industry like "well, shit, we can't hold everyone accountable for sexual assault, because if we did that, we wouldn't have an industry anymore." (actually, this is pretty close to the sentiment that Barbara Walters has put forth).

Burn, Hollywood, burn. (the calls for arson were for a different reason, but it seems like an appropriate sentiment nonetheless).
posted by el io at 11:55 AM on October 31 [3 favorites]


Old Vic Theatre On Kevin Spacey: “Deeply Dismayed” To Hear Allegations (Nancy Tartaglione/Deadline Hollywood)
London’s Old Vic, the theater of which Kevin Spacey was artistic director from 2004-2015, has said it is “deeply dismayed” to hear the allegations of sexual misconduct that recently surfaced against the actor. A statement released today by the venerable venue points to an earlier statement that was made jointly by UK theater bosses that “there can be no place for sexual harassment or abuse of power in our industry.”
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:40 PM on October 31


I for one would love to see what the entertainment industry would produce if all the abusers were barred from working. We might get less output temporarily as things reconfigured, but not much of that lost output would be missed. I bet there would be a lot more variety in storytelling and points of view. There would be a lot more entry points for workers who are kept out because they don't engage in the rapacious behavior that can seem needed to break in.

I'm staggered when I try to imagine the amount of creative output that has been lost to the world (not just in in entertainment) because privileged, inhumane abusers feel like they are entitled to destroy lives and careers for no reason other than their egos demand it. It's been going on since the dawn of human civilization. It's like the dark ages never ended except for white men, who shoved them off onto non-whites & non-men.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 1:09 PM on October 31 [19 favorites]


there can be no place for sexual harassment or abuse of power in our industry.”

While I'm glad that these stories of abuses are finally coming out, I'm worried, like posters above, that the final narrative coming out of this will be "Hollywood/media/theater/entertainment is a particularly vile hive of scum and villainy" instead of "Workplace sexual harassment and predators can be endemic EVERYWHERE."

What Job Should I Choose to Avoid Workplace Sexual Harassment?
Answer (at least for women): NONE OF THEM
posted by nicebookrack at 1:16 PM on October 31 [8 favorites]


It makes me wonder if there are conversations going on in the entertainment industry like "well, shit, we can't hold everyone accountable for sexual assault, because if we did that, we wouldn't have an industry anymore." (actually, this is pretty close to the sentiment that Barbara Walters has put forth).

Baba Wawa has been confronting the afflicted and assisting the powerful for decades.
posted by non canadian guy at 1:26 PM on October 31 [1 favorite]


Baba Wawa

Can we just not, please?
posted by hanov3r at 2:33 PM on October 31 [15 favorites]


Season six production filming has shut down and may remain so indefinitely.

That is a very swift response by Netflix.
posted by Faintdreams at 3:06 PM on October 31 [1 favorite]


I'm staggered when I try to imagine the amount of creative output that has been lost to the world

The number of talented people whose careers never started over the last century could compose a new movie industry.

By the same token, I wonder if a rift will form from these allegations that will spawn the creation (or an explosion, really) of new video networks, both so the Spacey/Weinsteins will have someplace to work and for the additional production population that emerges once the casting couch relinquishes its power. It just seems like a revolutionary turn in certain respects.
posted by rhizome at 3:25 PM on October 31 [2 favorites]


2016: Your favourite celebrities are dead.
2017: The celebrities who are left alive are sexual predators.
posted by orange swan at 4:40 PM on October 31 [59 favorites]


Via GamerGhazi: an anonymous 2011 Datalounge gossip thread (archived) discussing Kevin Spacey being "mean" and "creepy" with hookups. Reply 80 identifies Spacey as Rapp's then-unnamed attacker mentioned in the 2001 Advocate interview.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:04 PM on October 31 [2 favorites]


David Zurawik, The Baltimore Sun : Why Netflix had to shut down 'House of Cards' production
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:42 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]


Next in line, Brett Ratner and Dustin Hoffman.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:27 AM on November 1 [3 favorites]


(Not a joke, not a drill, people. The line is long and moving faster and faster.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:49 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]


I think this flew under the radar:

Hercules Star Kevin Sorbo Says He Was Sexually Harassed by Gianni Versace

Dustin Hoffman

For Reasons, I can't think of a single name that could kneecap me more than this. But I agree with I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! that this thread should focus on male victims.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:11 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]




If after this week's revelations, you're hoping we've reached an era when sexual assaulters will finally be held accountable, I would only remind you that the star of The Apprentice was elected President of the United States after being recorded on tape bragging about this kind of behavior.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:39 AM on November 1 [8 favorites]


I think if anything the Abuser-in-Chief has been the triggering, rage-inducing straw that broke the camel's back for many victims.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:09 AM on November 1 [11 favorites]


Second Man Accuses Kevin Spacey of Sexual Assault: "Tony Montana, a filmmaker, alleges that a drunk Spacey grabbed his groin at Los Angeles bar the Coronet in 2003."
posted by nicebookrack at 9:11 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]


Kevin Spacey: More allegations of sexual harassment surface "Mexican actor Roberto Cavazos, who acted in several plays at the [Old Vic], claims Spacey 'routinely preyed' on young male actors. [...] Separately, a British man claims Kevin Spacey exposed himself to him in 2010, when he was working at a hotel in West Sussex." Here's Cavazos's Facebook post, in Spanish.

Another underage assault allegation: A man has said he was left traumatised after waking up to find Hollywood star Kevin Spacey lying on him when he was a teenager in the 1980s.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:28 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]


Was just about to post that second one, nicebookrack. Looks like a very similar MO.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:41 AM on November 1


From the L.A. Times article about Brett Ratner:

“David Anthony, whose company at the time, Background Players, handled extras casting for the film’s shoot in L.A. and Las Vegas, said that three background actresses who worked on the project told him that Ratner had asked them out on ‘dates.’

In Brett’s defense, I am sure he is not the only heterosexual man hitting on women on that set,’ he said.”

Please read the bolded sentence a few times.

That is men’s idea of a defense against multiple sexual harassment claims. “Hey, there was a whole lot of harassment going on!” makes it less of a problem, as far as they’re concerned.
posted by tzikeh at 10:27 AM on November 1 [12 favorites]


Can we make another thread for the never ending stream of abusers instead of turning this one into that?
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:04 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]


Can we make another thread for the never ending stream of abusers instead of turning this one into that?

With the framing of this post being hey, look who's next now, it seemed to make a certain amount of sense to add more names into this one.

It's mind-bogglingly awful that we have to stop and think about how many celebrity sexual predators can fit in one thread before it needs to fork, though.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:46 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]


Just to repeat what I said earlier, I think male victims aren't often given a space that is focused on them and the Weinstein thread (and the #metoo thread) is still open to keep listing out all the serial predators of women and girls.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:53 AM on November 1 [8 favorites]


Oh goody, we can have the never ending politics threads and the never ending sexual harassment threads too!
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:15 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]


2017 is a deeply weird year -- Playboy Places Brett Ratner-Directed Hugh Hefner Biopic On Hold: A Playboy spokesperson says of allegations against the filmmaker: "We find this kind of behavior completely unacceptable."
posted by gladly at 12:18 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]


[Giles] Marini also spoke about his own experiences dealing with sexual misconduct, explaining that abused men often find it difficult to come forward. “I didn’t see many men use the hashtag #MeToo,” he said, referring to the viral hashtag used by alleged abuse victims on social media. “And the reason is because it’s a stigma, it’s a shame, you lose your manhood.”

He added, “When a young man is affected by being raped, or sexually harassed, or touched … you will never hear [about it] — but those people exist.”
Sex and the City's Gilles Marini: 'I Became a Piece of Meat for Many Hollywood Executives'
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:43 PM on November 1


NPR chief resigns after sex harassment accusations
Two women had accused Oreskes of suddenly kissing them when they were discussing job prospects with him in the 1990s, when he was Washington bureau chief of The New York Times.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:45 PM on November 1


Just to repeat what I said earlier, I think male victims aren't often given a space that is focused on them and the Weinstein thread (and the #metoo thread) is still open to keep listing out all the serial predators of women and girls.

The open Harvey Weinstein thread
posted by Room 641-A at 12:54 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]


A Playboy spokesperson says of allegations against the filmmaker: "We find this kind of behavior completely unacceptable."

Wait, what? I think Playboy's proper response should have been, "As Hugh was a serial harasser of women, we thought it would be appropriate if his biopic would be directed by someone that shared his values."

Seriously, do they think that someone who is going to watch a movie lionizing Hugh Hefner would be in the least bit disturbed that the director was a serial abuser?
posted by el io at 2:04 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]


They just want the fun bits of Boogie Nights, man.
posted by Artw at 2:47 PM on November 1


If anything nasty comes out about David Attenborough, I'm going to go live in a cave.
posted by Perodicticus potto at 4:38 PM on November 1 [6 favorites]


We're gonna wake up one day and Guillermo Del Toro & the Stranger Things lads are the only men left in Hollywood.

Please, Totoro-san; don't disappoint me.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:15 PM on November 1 [8 favorites]


I think if anything the Abuser-in-Chief has been the triggering, rage-inducing straw that broke the camel's back for many victims.

From a cultural perspective, I think we've been ramping up to this moment for years, basically through people becoming emboldened through the example of others to speak out and stand up for themselves on a variety of issues.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:51 PM on November 1 [3 favorites]


The dam is breaking. "Actors and former staff at the Old Vic have accused the theatre of turning a blind eye to inappropriate sexual behaviour by Kevin Spacey during the 11 years that the Hollywood star was its artistic director."

It's a damn shame that Spacey may take down an acclaimed theater company like the Old Vic with him, and it's a damn shame that the Old Vic may totally deserve to go down.

"In a statement provided to the The New York Times on Wednesday, Mr. Spacey’s publicist said: 'Kevin Spacey is taking the time necessary to seek evaluation and treatment. No other information is available at this time.'" Evaluation and treatment for what?! Is there somewhere offering outpatient treatment for being a sociopathic serial predator?
posted by nicebookrack at 6:06 AM on November 2 [3 favorites]




People were pretty much waiting for that one - no doubt there will be more. Singer is pretty much the proto-Spacey on the "people are just making a big deal because it's gay" front and it worked out pretty well for him the first time(s), but I think people may feel played for chumps by that now.
posted by Artw at 8:57 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]


Also under the radar between Weinstein and Spacey:

James Van Der Beek Shares Experiences of Sexual Harassment: ‘I’ve Had My Ass Grabbed by Older, Powerful Men’

Richard Rushfield, The Ankler
So right now, we’ve got Harvey Weinstein, Roy Price, Brett Ratner, Kevin Spacey, Jeremey Piven, James Toback, Andy Dick, the Lionsgate guy, and a handful of agents. This is the low hanging fruit. We’ll see how high up the tree the revolution can get, but there are major journalistic investigations swirling around and they are definitely pointed northward of Andy Dick and James Toback. (emphasis mine.)
I had missed the Lionsgate instance mentioned above: Lionsgate Exec Andrew Kramer Exited After Harassment Allegation (Exclusive)

(The above is a snippet from The Ankler, a new industry newsletter. It's now subscription based but you can still get the newsletter, which has big previews. The website does, too, but I think it lags behind the newsletter. Big focus on this issue now, obvs.)
posted by Room 641-A at 9:20 AM on November 2 [4 favorites]


I want to make a list somewhere (not here) of famous dudes who aren't hideous human beings. Like Mr. Rogers, or... LeVar Burton, I think?
posted by XtinaS at 9:40 AM on November 2 [2 favorites]


I was thinking of people who would devastate me if there were accusations against them. Mr. Rogers is definitely one of them.
posted by AFABulous at 10:04 AM on November 2 [3 favorites]


Mr. Rogers Has been dead long enough, if anyone had a complaint it would have surfaced by now.

2017 is the year everybody seems to have said "Fuck this, enough!" And good. Guys that are sideways predator-wise are not once-&-done types. This is why you see strings of women coming forward. Because it's a pattern, a habit, a skill-set that gets refined over time.

Lotsa too-cool-for-school hipsters got snide post-sincerity snark for Mr. Rogers & the show. Ain't nobody coming forward saying the crew had to silently escort out the underage interns when he was on set.

Mr. Rogers was actually what he portrayed himself to be, and he left this mortal coil clean.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:48 AM on November 2 [9 favorites]


No no, I wasn't suggesting that Mr. Rogers had actually done anything! I'm saying that on the list of people who would just break my heart, he would be #1. I'm sure we all have such a list, and I'm sure Bill Cosby was on quite a few people's.
posted by AFABulous at 11:05 AM on November 2 [1 favorite]




The survivor talking about how he thought at 14 it was normal for men in their twenties to want to date him is haunting.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:40 PM on November 2 [6 favorites]


Yeah, that really struck a chord for me -- along with the idea mentioned in passing that it seemed safer to be sexually active with older men than to risk coming out to your peers.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:54 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]


en forme de poire, that Vulture piece is one of the best and most disturbing interviews I've ever read. I completely understand why the survivor prefers to remain anonymous while at the same time I selfishly wish I could read more from him, a memoir or something, because the way he uses words is devastatingly eloquent.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:08 PM on November 2 [6 favorites]


I was thinking of people who would devastate me if there were accusations against them. Mr. Rogers is definitely one of them.

Leo LaPorte is kind of for grown up me what Rogers was for kid me, and given how toxic the tech world is (hello Scoble), I hope he's as decent as he appears to be.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:20 PM on November 2


The narrator's descriptions of feeling caught between the cousin/boyfriend/abuser and Spacey remind me of the beautiful bleak memoir Tiger, Tiger by Margaux Fragoso, about her relationship with a pedophile through most of her childhood: the pedophile was the only person who told her that her father shouldn't be physically and mentally abusing her and that she was worth more, and her violent alcoholic father was the only person who was suspicious of the man who was sexually abusing her, and in her imperfect situation Fragoso felt the only shelter from her relationship with each man was her relationship with the other one.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:24 PM on November 2 [14 favorites]


Christ... looking up Tiger, Tiger this quote from the author seemed particularly appropriate: `She wrote: “Our world had been permitted only by the secrecy surrounding it. Had you taken away our lies and codes and looks and symbols and haunts, you would have taken everything.”'
posted by en forme de poire at 2:01 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]


Off-topic but after googling I just discovered that Fragoso died this June of ovarian cancer. I loved her devastating book. Fuck cancer, and men who prey on children.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:22 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]




this thread is still about men being abused by men, why do people keep doing this
posted by AFABulous at 3:00 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]


[Folks, I would encourage you to be mindful that there are several active threads about abuse and harassment and it might be worth picking the most suitable ones to drop links into?]
posted by jessamyn at 3:03 PM on November 2 [6 favorites]


CNN has a report about Spacey's sexual harassment and assault of members of the House of Cards crew.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:58 PM on November 2 [5 favorites]


The Tricky Part by Martin Moran is an excellent book by a gay male adult survivor of sexual abuse that happened while he was a teenager. The interview in Vulture with the man who was a survivor of Spacey made me think of it again.
posted by larrybob at 6:23 PM on November 2 [4 favorites]


Yep. 8 accusations from the HoC set and now he's been dropped by his creative agent.
"Netflix was just made aware of one incident, five years ago, that we were informed was resolved swiftly," the statement said.
WTF, Netflix. It was "resolved quickly?" I might cancel my sub over this, and I've been customer since the company opened its doors.
posted by xyzzy at 9:08 PM on November 2 [2 favorites]


I read an interview with Paz de la Huerta today who got dragged through the mud over her drinking issues post rape and I keep thinking about the younger male lead from American Beauty who's life went completely off the rails shortly afterwards. I wonder what happened there and how many other young actors have had similar issues and why.
posted by fshgrl at 11:06 PM on November 2 [3 favorites]


Wes Bentley? The guy who only took enough work to pay for heroin after his success in American Beauty? Yes, that does seem odd in retrospect. I hope he wasn't harmed on the set of that movie and that his drug addiction just happened to coincide with that time period. Happily he seems to be in recovery now and has two children.
posted by xyzzy at 11:46 PM on November 2 [1 favorite]


Popbitch, the celeb news/gossip site/newsletter original broke the Spacey story that he in fact did not trip over his dog at 4 in the morning but in fact was punched when he tried it on with the wrong guy... which, along with Spacey's other antics, was ignored by the mainstream media then and ever since with the exception of the odd bit of inverted commas and general nudge nudge wink wink.

Perhaps not surprising the latest issue has a lot on Spacey in particular his time at the Old Vic theater when a lot of young men were seen entering his dressing room, ignored by the rest of the management.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:40 AM on November 3


Best part of the story is the guy initially thought Spacey was Russel Crowe.
posted by Artw at 10:48 AM on November 3


These motherfuckers sure like medals.
posted by Artw at 10:49 AM on November 3




A Pattern Of Abuse: How Kevin Spacey Used The Closet To Silence His Victims (Adam B. Vary, Susan Cheng & Dara Levy, Buzzfeed News) — Three new accusers shed light on the Oscar winner's history of abuse. “Being closeted has … enabled him to use this privacy claim as a shield,” one of the men told BuzzFeed News.

(Warning: descriptions of assault)
posted by Room 641-A at 5:44 PM on November 3 [3 favorites]


I hate when sites use a big picture of Spacey at the top of the article. I just want to puke whenever I see his face now.
posted by AFABulous at 7:31 PM on November 3 [1 favorite]


Netflix is cutting ties; Spacey suspended from House of Cards.
Producer Media Rights Capital took the action of suspending Spacey Friday evening. A source close to the production tells Variety that the move is legally necessary first step toward Spacey’s eventual termination.

Netflix, meanwhile, said Friday that it would not move forward with any version of “House of Cards” that includes Spacey — and that it would cancel the Gore Vidal biopic, “Gore,” which was set to star the two-time Oscar-winning actor.
posted by guiseroom at 9:04 PM on November 3 [2 favorites]


Terry Crews name’s his assaulter

WME’s Adam Venit on Leave Amid Sexual Harassment Allegations Involving Actor Terry Crews
Adam Venit, the longtime head of WME’s motion picture group, is on leave from the agency as it probes an allegation of sexual harassment involving actor Terry Crews.

Crews disclosed via social media on Oct. 10 that he was groped last year at a “Hollywood function” by a “high-level Hollywood executive.” Sources close to the situation said Crews in recent days has been preparing to cite Venit as the unnamed executive. Crews is a client of WME.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:31 AM on November 4 [6 favorites]


Without spoiling too much, there would seem to be a convenient way of writing Frank Underwood off the show in a way that mirrors real life. Like, for example, if Underwood's college days were to catch up with him somehow.
posted by emelenjr at 5:58 AM on November 4 [2 favorites]


Yeah, but clearly they'd have to get rid of him in such a way that he's never allowed back on set again. You know, the Charlie Sheen method of character disposal.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:16 AM on November 4 [1 favorite]


Yeah, they can't wind down his character, because he's a menace to members of the crew. They either have to shut down all production or get rid of him in a way that means that doesn't involve him working a single additional day.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:19 AM on November 4 [3 favorites]


Kevin Spacey’s London Theatre Has Been Accused Of A “Breach Of Trust” By A Man Alleging The Star Assaulted Him: An actor who contacted the Old Vic's confidential helpline to allege that Spacey repeatedly groped him in 2013 said: "This is not confidential. It’s not private."
The man sent an email to the address provided by the theatre (confidential@oldvictheatre.com) explaining that he would rather not detail the allegations in writing as he was concerned about security and so would rather speak to someone about it.

But the response he received was not from an independent external advisor but from the theatre’s executive director, Kate Varah. In her email, seen by BuzzFeed News, Varah asks for his phone number.


I want someone to submit this as a hypothetical employer question to Ask A Manager just to read Alison's answering scream of "NOOOOOOO."


And from Buzzfeed again, Here Are The People Who Kevin Spacey Has Allegedly Sexually Harassed Or Assaulted. It's up to at least 10 men/boys now.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:31 AM on November 4 [1 favorite]


Uma Thurman is so angry with the flood of revelations she is shaking and can't answer the question. Yet. Twitter Video
posted by Rumple at 11:20 AM on November 4 [17 favorites]


I was imagining a Charlie Sheen-type character disposal, à la season six begins with Underwood already gone either because of his or Claire's reacting to revelations about his college days, or somebody from his college days coming after him. Somehow, Underwood gets got., even if it's offscreen.

It occurs to me that this news about Spacey shows he doesn't have much range as an actor, and I say that as someone for whom Spacey was on a list of actors whose movies I'd watch without hesitation.
posted by emelenjr at 1:23 PM on November 4 [2 favorites]


I say they pull a Darren Stevens and just replace him with another actor and never mention it.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:39 PM on November 4 [14 favorites]


Who else do we know who can do a decent Foghorn Leghorn?

Another account, this one from Henry Dreyfuss, son of Richard Dreyfuss: "What disgusts me about Kevin was how safe he did feel. He knew he could fondle me in a room with my father and that I wouldn't say a word... Kevin Spacey is a sexual predator."

[from the link: Dreyfuss claims the incident took place in 2008, when Spacey was directing his father Richard Dreyfuss in the play Complicit at London's Old Vic theater. He was 18 years old at the time.]
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:45 PM on November 4 [1 favorite]


The Dreyfuss link above is broken, I think it's this BuzzFeed article, plus it's Harry Dreyfuss not Heney. It's a stunning display of hubris on Spacey's part.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:27 AM on November 5 [2 favorites]


Yeah, they can't wind down his character, because he's a menace to members of the crew. They either have to shut down all production or get rid of him in a way that means that doesn't involve him working a single additional day.

Fast forward a couple of years, have his character die before the season starts.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:47 AM on November 5


Someone I saw on twitter suggested doing a silent recast of Frank Underwood and have the role played by Don Cheadle. No mention of anything in the show, just, this is Frank, this has always been Frank.
posted by rmd1023 at 10:05 AM on November 5 [18 favorites]


Thanks, Room 641-A, twice over -- you're right, it's Harry, and I'd linked to a summary at The Hollywood Reporter.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:43 AM on November 5 [1 favorite]


Replace Spacey with Don Cheadle AND make Robin Wright president. I don't even watch the show but I'll start for First Husband Don.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:56 PM on November 5 [3 favorites]


So reading multiple links today about the sudden cancellation of season six shooting, statements of full support for safe work environments, the production company setting up hotlines, free counselling, etc., etc.

And yeah, great, that is the correct thing to do. But it is all bullshit, and everyone knows it is bullshit. He was the executive producer of the show, and he has been casting this pall over the staff for six years now. Suddenly people notice and take action?

It isn't even a broken stair in this case, it is like the entry foyer is full of rotating knife traps... "Mind Kevin, he will try to rape you as soon as you are within reach... Welcome to the team!"

When do other responsible people start getting consequences for "noticing" these huge problems only once they become public PR disasters? Why is the HR department and other senior management not getting the shit sued out of them for facilitating and coordinating an unsafe work environment?
posted by Meatbomb at 12:12 AM on November 6 [14 favorites]


Upton Sinclair nailed it: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
posted by rmd1023 at 5:37 AM on November 6 [5 favorites]


The survivor talking about how he thought at 14 it was normal for men in their twenties to want to date him is haunting.

FWIW I shared a house with a gay couple back when I lived in Jersey; one was a co-worker, the other was a kid who died of AIDS in a matter of weeks after his diagnosis. Anyway, he wasn't fully forthcoming about his background, but he ran away from his mixed PR/white family in the Bronx as a teen and ended up as a classic "rent boy" who was brought to private parties at Manhattan's swankest nightclubs. Lots of penetrative sex and poppers, is my impression. Lots of celebrities he would not name. And when I met him he was just 19.

Anyway, not to make this about centering me, but -- having been a fan of Spacey since he played the arms dealer Mel Profitt on the briefly awesome TV show Wiseguy [one of the first shows to use a story arc format] -- imagine my mixed feelings when the library finally called to say Baby Driver was now available for me to pick up. I'd had it on hold since the pre-order days.
Fortunately KS is only about 20% of the movie per se and plays a ruthless asshole you don't mind getting his at the end, silver linings of the worst kind.
posted by dhartung at 5:53 PM on November 6 [1 favorite]


another New Yorker article from Ronan Farrow on Weinstein's attempts to cover up and silence:
Two private investigators from Black Cube, using false identities, met with the actress Rose McGowan, who eventually publicly accused Weinstein of rape, to extract information from her. One of the investigators pretended to be a women’s-rights advocate and secretly recorded at least four meetings with McGowan. The same operative, using a different false identity and implying that she had an allegation against Weinstein, met twice with a journalist to find out which women were talking to the press. In other cases, journalists directed by Weinstein or the private investigators interviewed women and reported back the details.

The explicit goal of the investigations, laid out in one contract with Black Cube, signed in July, was to stop the publication of the abuse allegations against Weinstein that eventually emerged in the New York Times and The New Yorker. Over the course of a year, Weinstein had the agencies “target,” or collect information on, dozens of individuals, and compile psychological profiles that sometimes focussed on their personal or sexual histories. Weinstein monitored the progress of the investigations personally.
posted by Rumple at 7:13 PM on November 6 [9 favorites]


Country music publicist steps away from firm as more sexual misconduct claims emerge
"Powerful Nashville, Tenn., publicist Webster — who has repped stars including Dolly Parton, Hank Williams Jr., Lynyrd Skynyrd, Sam Moore, Kid Rock, Kenny G, Billy Ray Cyrus and KC and the Sunshine Band — has been accused of repeatedly sexually assaulting a former client, musician Austin Rick (aka Austin Cody)."

I feel a tiny glimmer of hope if men speaking out about being sexually assaulted is actually having an effect on the notoriously conservative and homophobic country music industry.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:27 PM on November 6 [9 favorites]


Rumple: another New Yorker article from Ronan Farrow on Weinstein's attempts to cover up and silence

And Ronan Farrow On 'Harvey Weinstein's Army Of Spies' (NPR, Nov. 7, 2017)
With the latest revelations in the Harvey Weinstein scandal, in an article published last night in The New Yorker, journalist Ronan Farrow details how the disgraced Hollywood mogul hired former Israeli Mossad agents to spy on actresses and journalists. The ultimate aim of this was to kill stories by Farrow, also The New York Times and other news outlets, stories that detailed allegations of rape and sexual harassment carried out by Weinstein over a period of decades.
...
FARROW: You know, it's worth pointing out that Black Cube was one of a variety of firms of this type employed by Weinstein over the years but especially in the past year as women started to come forward with these allegations. And, you know, what's extraordinary is just the size of this campaign, Mary Louise, multiple firms, you know, international, high-level corporate intelligence firms using very aggressive tactics. In Black Cube's case, that included human intelligence tactics - targeting women, targeting journalists, showing up in their lives using fake identities, using fake companies as a front. This was detailed. This was aggressive. And according to the women I spoke to, this was terrifying.
Option 0) don't sexually assault or abuse anyone;
Option 1) sexually assault or abuse someone, but then turn yourself in or at least get help for whatever drives you to treat other people like props in your life;
Option 2) sexually assault or abuse someone, then hire multiple firms to help you craft NDAs for your settlements, spy on people, including journalists, to scare them into continued silence.

Power is one hell of a drug.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:49 PM on November 7 [5 favorites]


It's long been known that Corey Haim was sexually assaulted when he was young, but the perpetrator has never been named. The National Enquirer, quoting multiple sources, has named his rapist as Charlie Sheen.

The event allegedly took place during the filming of Lucas, when Haim was just 13 years old, which Corey Fledman also mentioned in his autobiography. If you've seen Lucas, Haim was really very much a child, and it is a very sweet movie, and he is lovely in it. In the meanwhile, when Haim died in 2010, Sheen was then making $1.3 million per episode of Two and a Half Men.

This fucking world.
posted by maxsparber at 11:00 AM on November 8 [5 favorites]


Former Boston News Anchor Accuses Kevin Spacey Of Assaulting 18-Year-Old Son (NYT)
A longtime Boston television journalist on Wednesday accused Kevin Spacey of sexually assaulting her 18-year-old son last summer at a Nantucket bar.

At an emotional news conference, Heather Unruh, a former news anchor for WCVB, an ABC affiliate, said that the actor plied her son with “drink after drink” and then reached down his pants and grabbed his genitals. Her son had told Mr. Spacey that he was 21, she said, though he was only 18.

“But,” said Ms. Unruh, regardless of her son’s age, “Kevin Spacey had no right to sexually assault him. There was no consent.” She said she hoped the actor would go to jail.
Kevin Spacey Cut From ‘Carol Burnett Show’ Anniversary Special On CBS

(I'd feel way more comfortable with that Sheen charge if it wasn't coming from the National Enquirer.)
posted by Room 641-A at 11:31 AM on November 8 [3 favorites]


The National Enquirer also broke the John Edwards/Rielle Hunter story, so this might be a broken clock (once per decade, rather than twice a day?) deal.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:06 PM on November 8


This isn't the beginning of the Sheen claims. I first heard it 10 or more years ago. I definitely heard it during his divorce from Denise Richards and again during the tiger blood idiocy. It may or may not be true, but the National Enquirer didn't just come up with it. Also, Charlie Sheen has been abusing, beating, and in one case - shooting - partners for well over two decades. It's not exactly a stretch.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:08 PM on November 8 [4 favorites]


I know they get a scoop once in a while, but to me they haven't the benefit of the doubt, especially for such a serious charge. I also very much do not want this to be true.
posted by Room 641-A at 12:08 PM on November 8


Also, I totally understand what's being said with "very much a child," but all of us at 13 were "very much children" no matter how far through puberty we were or what experiences we had by then.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:10 PM on November 8


This article takes us up to 6 years ago with Sheen's abuse of his partners. I am pretty sure more accusations of violence have been made since then. Beyond that his drug abuse is legendary, including his father begging the court to send him to prison. Does it really sound so out of character for 1986 Sheen to introduce a kid to drugs (or more drugs) and then be sexually violent towards him?
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:17 PM on November 8 [2 favorites]


Oh fuck no to the National Enquirer. I get occasionally their disgusting brand of fabrications and unverified rumors happens to actually be true. But it always seems to be an accident when it is. And fuck this National Enquirer in particular.
HIV Charlie Sheen Raped 13-Year-Old Corey Haim — Shocking Claim

HIV-infected Charlie Sheen is finally being unmasked by The National ENQUIRER as a twisted child molester
Using HIV in this context is monstrous and horrible. Doubly so since the alleged rape took place some twenty years before Sheen was diagnosed as having HIV. Finally what the hell is "HIV Charlie Sheen" in the headline? Maybe we'll be seeing stories about "Jew Harvey Weinstein" too.

Fuck. Them.
posted by Nelson at 12:30 PM on November 8 [11 favorites]


Honestly, no, I don't think drug abuse + partying in the 80s with underage kids equals pedophilia, especially in Hollywood, despite his violent history with grown women.
posted by Room 641-A at 12:48 PM on November 8


I understand complaints about the Enquirer. On the other hand, their reporting here is both sourced and consistent with allegations about Sheen in the past, including ex-wife Richard's claims that he looked at what seemed to be underage porn, Feldman's statements about Haim's experience on Lucas, and other statements Feldman has made about Sheen, as well as Haim's own comments alleging childhood abuse.

The AIDs stuff is garbage, and I agree, fuck the Enquirer. But Haim's experiences have been disregarded for so long (he was not even included in the Oscar in memorium section when he died) that I expect this sort of news wouldn't break from a more mainstream publication.

I also despise TMZ, but TMZ says a celebrity has died, that celebrity is dead.
posted by maxsparber at 12:50 PM on November 8 [6 favorites]


It's horrible regardless, but the rumors around Charlie Sheen in this instance were starting to implicate other family members in his stead.

I do wonder about the timing of this hideously-titled piece; with that many sources, I imagine they've had it under embargo for a good while.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:16 PM on November 8


Corey Feldman Has Filed A Child Sex Abuse Report With The LAPD
The LAPD on Tuesday confirmed that they had launched an investigation after receiving a report filed by Feldman, although they would not confirm the allegations the actor made. A representative for Feldman also declined to comment.

Police would not elaborate on the allegations, but Feldman has long vowed to take down the "pedophile ring" in Hollywood that he allegedly fell victim to early in his career.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:58 PM on November 8 [2 favorites]


Have you read the divorce documents from Denise Richards, specifically as it relates to underage porn? I don't think everyone who parties with kids and beats grown women are going to rape people up to and including teen boys (although I'm also probably not going to waste breath defending them), but i think specifically Charlie Sheen is more than capable of being that scumbag.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:40 PM on November 8 [1 favorite]


And yes, absolutely, fuck any framing of this about his HIV status. Vultures gonna vulture.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:42 PM on November 8 [1 favorite]


The Guardian: Child abuse documentary Hollywood 'didn't want you to see' goes viral
When the documentary An Open Secret tried to lift the lid on child abuse in Hollywood, it billed itself as “the film Hollywood doesn’t want you to see”. The marketing tagline did not exaggerate.

The film died upon release in 2015. There was no theatrical release to speak of, no television deal, no video-on-demand distribution.…

Hoffman released the film for free on the video-sharing website Vimeo this month after reports about Harvey Weinstein’s alleged sexual assaults set off a chain-reaction, with James Toback, Tyler Grasham and Kevin Spacey among those accused of harassment and worse.…

Hoffman said he had intended to end the free online viewings of An Open Secret on Tuesday, but extended the window until Sunday because of public interest, with more than 3 million viewings on various social media platforms since 12 October.
posted by Lexica at 5:49 PM on November 8 [2 favorites]


I'm not saying it isn't true, or can't be true. I'm saying we should have higher standards here. If it is true there will be a credible source that names Charlie Sheen. I don't think a link to the National Enquirer would stand as a source in any thread on the blue, not for a second. I respect every person this thread, but I can't believe we're even having a debate about the idea of not linking to the National Enquire as a primary and only source.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:36 PM on November 8 [1 favorite]


MeTa
posted by Room 641-A at 7:24 PM on November 8 [1 favorite]


Gay Talese on Kevin Spacey: “I feel so sad, and I hate that actor that ruined this guy’s career,” said Talese, referring to actor Anthony Rapp... Bonus: he drive-by compares Spacey to the Dalai Lama.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:27 PM on November 8


Mia Galuppo, Pamela McClintock, Carolyn Giardina: Hollywood Reporter; Christopher Plummer to Replace Kevin Spacey in 'All the Money in the World'
In a monumental and expensive move, Ridley Scott will remove embattled actor Kevin Spacey from his finished thriller All the Money in the World just weeks before the film's release.

Christopher Plummer will now play J. Paul Getty in the story about the infamous 1973 kidnapping of his grandson, 16-year-old John Paul Getty III.

The movie, which was pulled as the closing-night screening of AFI Fest at Scott's insistence, is scheduled to hit theaters Dec. 22 via Sony's TriStar. As of now, the release date remains unchanged despite the reshoots, but insiders say that if anyone can pull off reshoots and still make the holiday release date, it's Scott.

The filmmaker made the decision unilaterally and only notified Sony of his decision late Wednesday afternoon, according to sources familiar with the situation, adding that Plummer was originally the first choice for the role, but top studio executives wanted a bigger name.

Spacey shot a total of eight days and many of his scenes featured just him.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:33 PM on November 8 [3 favorites]


I hope Christopher Plummer wins an Oscar* and beats Kevin Spacey over the head with it!

*and beats his own record as oldest actor to win an Oscar
posted by nicebookrack at 12:24 AM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Since the Weinstein case broke, and Anthony Rapp's "one-off" accusation against Spacey turns out to be part of a pattern of behavior, and of course the Larry Nassar case in gymnastics, in which a high-profile doctor working for USA Gymnastics abused well over a hundred--that have been reported--girls and young women, I've been thinking about the concerns that always come up about false accusations and one person's story against another with "no actual evidence." The thing is, it's so rarely really just one person. In the Nassar case, the stories the victims tell are nearly identical--he did the same thing, over and over and over. As did Weinstein. As did Spacey.

I hope the number of stories where one person speaks up and is immediately corroborated by many others emboldens more to be the first to speak. I hope people are thinking, "If I get this started, I'm not going to end up left hanging all on my own out there."

I think it's great the way people in the industry are so quickly distancing themselves from Spacey. The next thing I want to happen is a shift in the culture such that we don't have so many powerful men who need to be exposed and dethroned because when other people with the power to hire and fire, to greenlight projects, to make casting decisions, stop working with abusers before public exposure, when they themselves find out about it, so that abusers don't become powerful men.
posted by Orlop at 12:44 AM on November 9 [6 favorites]


Orlop: Since the Weinstein case broke, and Anthony Rapp's "one-off" accusation against Spacey turns out to be part of a pattern of behavior, and of course the Larry Nassar case in gymnastics, in which a high-profile doctor working for USA Gymnastics abused well over a hundred--that have been reported--girls and young women, I've been thinking about the concerns that always come up about false accusations and one person's story against another with "no actual evidence." The thing is, it's so rarely really just one person. In the Nassar case, the stories the victims tell are nearly identical--he did the same thing, over and over and over. As did Weinstein. As did Spacey.

It is never just one person. I think it is always a pattern. I've seen it over and over and over again, to the point where I think people who prey on children and young people always have multiple victims.

Bad as this is, I think it is what is making it easier now for (many, not all) victims to come forward. Their story will be corroborated by several, if not numerous, others. Person X reports they have been molested by Bigname Celebrity, and now Y, Z, A and B are saying the same thing and backing up the story. It never fails.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:18 AM on November 9 [4 favorites]


Looks like Louis C.K.'s next. Fucking finally.
posted by palomar at 10:31 AM on November 9 [14 favorites]


I respect every person this thread, but I can't believe we're even having a debate about the idea of not linking to the National Enquire as a primary and only source.

Wasn't it the National Enquirer that broke the story of John Edwards's infidelity, which ended up being the end of his political career when proven to be true?
posted by palomar at 10:33 AM on November 9 [3 favorites]


Eddie Huang: Why I Denied My Sexual Assault for 20 Years - a counselor on a church trip exposed himself to Eddie and another boy, but the boys agreed not to talk about it to avoid being stigmatized. A panic attack got Eddie to talk about it years later.
cw: indecent exposure.
posted by larrybob at 10:57 AM on November 9 [4 favorites]


When you think boys are somehow privileged as victims (a disgusting thought, but one that seems to have popped up for a lot of people) just think about how common this is in their stories...

“Does he think we’re gay?”
“I don’t know. Why did he choose us? That was weird, right?”


...and when the rapist is a woman, they're told they like it.

My appreciation goes out to Eddie Huang for speaking up, and as usual, using his incredible gift for writing to tell the story.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:08 AM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Wasn't it the National Enquirer that broke the story of John Edwards's infidelity, which ended up being the end of his political career when proven to be true?

They also broke the story of Ted Cruz's infidelity. Wait for a better source to verify.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:35 AM on November 9


Gay Talese on Kevin Spacey: “I feel so sad, and I hate that actor that ruined this guy’s career,” said Talese

Talese has basically made his career writing paens to rape culture.
posted by PMdixon at 11:42 AM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Verify what? The absolute open secret that this has been the accusation for a long time? Of Brascia's interview? Of repeating quotes from Corey Feldman? Restrict your search to before this year and google "Haim rape Lucas." There are other sources, but no one believe the gossip mags/blogs and then get frustrated at people saying "this is an open secret." Read the article about Weinstein and his army of spies.major media on the payroll and ask why you think they are interested in truth telling. Haim's story will likely never be told in a satisfactory way to people who need everything fact checked to the millimeter. Most childhood victims will never get that. Many die like Haim did, after a sad life of thwarted potential after someone else destroyed them - and very few actually care.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 11:43 AM on November 9 [6 favorites]


[Couple comments removed. There is indeed a MetaTalk about links to problematic sources, and to the extent that there's something to talk about re: National Enquirer beyond the already-covered fact that they published something, it should probably go over there.]
posted by cortex at 12:00 PM on November 9




This makes CK's decision to make that movie even more mysterious. He had to KNOW he was going to get caught eventually if I, a mere podcast listener, have been avoiding him for years on these rumors.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:47 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


It's not a mystery why a serial sexual abuser would put his crimes in his art. At this point, it's a trope.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 1:30 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


Amy Berg's 2015 documentary An Open Secret about the culture of child sex abuse in Hollywood is available on Vimeo. Trailer.
posted by Coaticass at 2:56 AM on November 10




[n.b. there is now a thread specifically about the Louis C.K. thing.]
posted by cortex at 7:14 AM on November 10 [2 favorites]


I now understand why he was such a natural in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
posted by Kwadeng at 7:59 AM on November 10


Well this is just great. Someone is exploiting this tragedy; I hope we find out soon so Haim can rest in peace.

Corey Haim Was Molested, But Not By Charlie Sheen, Says Late Actor's Mother (By Tufayel Ahmed, Newsweek)
Judy Haim, mother of late actor Corey Haim, says speculation that Charlie Sheen raped her son is “made up”—but she knows who did molest theThe Lost Boys star. [...]

In an interview with Entertainment Tonight, Judy Haim said: "My son never mentioned Charlie. We never talked about Charlie. It was all made up.” She added: “If my son was here to hear all of this he would throw up."
posted by Room 641-A at 8:10 AM on November 10


Haim's mother and Feldman have always been at odds over what happened to Haim. Feldman says Haim told him explicitly about his abuse and powerful men who did it and Haim's mother says it was low level crew type guys. Who knows which is right.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 8:22 AM on November 10


I will admit that the one thing about this particular Sheen accusation is that previously everyone Sheen's abused has been a woman. So while being an abusive sexual assaulting fuckwad is definitely Sheen's thing and that wouldn't surprise anyone now, this is the first time I've heard of Sheen going after a teenage boy. Is this out of character or his type preference or what, exactly?

I would probably be thinking the same thing if we hear that Spacey was acting like this toward women too--I'm surprised we haven't heard any stories of him treating women like shit on some level yet, but I guess maybe he only prefers to harass young men (so far).
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:46 AM on November 10


If all of this celebrity awfulness is driving you nuts, I recommend a quick visit to this Twitter thread, which is collecting and sharing stories of celebrities being terrific people.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:04 AM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Haim's mom is going to be on Dr. Oz, which is not the usual way these things work. There are also shitty stage parents who use their children for financial gain in shitty ways. This whole thing is so sad.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:07 AM on November 10


Anthony Edwards writes that when he was a teenager he was molested by Gary Goddard
posted by maxsparber at 10:28 AM on November 10


Corey Feldman was on Doctor Oz last week. That's where he named Jon Grissom. And I just read somewhere that he's going to be on it again soon, maybe at the same time as Mrs. Haim.

Honestly I'm unsure what to do with either of them. Haim denies some of Feldman's claims and is angry that he won't name ALL names and thinks Feldman is only trying to make money off her dead son. Feldman has been threatening to out people since before Haim died and has recently said that he won't name names until his online fundraiser is funded so he can make a film about it and protect himself legally. Also the LAPD said today that they're not going to investigate the case Feldman filed a few days ago. I just don't know...
posted by elsietheeel at 10:37 AM on November 10 [1 favorite]




Denise Richards said in the divorce documents that his porn preferences at the very least could lean towards men who look underage. Nothing about Charlie Sheen's sexuality or ability to harm people would surprise me.
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 12:50 PM on November 10






L.A. Writer Says Richard Dreyfuss Sexually Harassed and Exposed Himself to Her in the 1980s (links to Vulture interview)

Teich came forward with her story about Dreyfuss after the actor tweeted in support of his son, Harry Dreyfuss, who told Buzzfeed that he was groped by Kevin Spacey when he was 18 years old. Richard Dreyfuss said he had never been more proud of his son for coming forward, to which Teich told Vulture: “When I read about his support for his son, which I would never question, I remember thinking, ‘But wait a minute, this guy harassed me for months.'” (links to IndieWire summary)
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:40 PM on November 10


...and Chris Rock's making rape jokes. PageSix, IndieWire.

Rock said he won’t hire women anymore because he would need a crew of witnesses around him at all times so he wouldn’t be accused of rape, one patron of the MacDougal Street club told me.

“They cry rape because they want money,” said Rock, who added he won’t even hire a cleaning lady because he’s afraid of false accusations.

posted by Iris Gambol at 6:44 PM on November 10


Really, George Takei? Really? God damn it.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:52 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Re Takei... there's a clip from a Howard Stern interview where he basically flat out admits it before trying to back track.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:05 AM on November 11 [3 favorites]


Louis CK talked about exposing himself on the Opie & Anthony show as well. For some reason, things said on shock jock radio aren't considered real.

A sad thing about the Takei situation is we're probably never hear from most of the men he attacked, as they may not have made it out of the '80s alive.
posted by riruro at 7:30 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


FWIW George Takei denies the allegations entirely and says he does not even remember the accuser. With many of the other stories like Spacey once one accuser comes forward many others do soon thereafter. I guess we'll see with Takei.
posted by Nelson at 8:13 AM on November 11


Morrissey has opinions on Kevin Spacey. tl;dr, Morrissey is still an asshole.

I've seen a lot of gay men get defensive about the Kevin Spacey charges and some of the other gay sexual harassment / abuse stories that have come out these past few weeks. It makes me wonder what in their own life they do and are either ashamed about or don't want to admit is wrong.
posted by Nelson at 7:12 AM on November 20 [1 favorite]


Oh good lord that article. Morrissey has been my one guilty "separate the art from the artist" exception, but to do so I learned ages ago that I could never ever read his interviews...but I think that needs to stop today.

This one has a ton of self-righteous victim blaming in re: both Spacey and Weinstein, as well as this delightful quote: "Anyone who has ever said to someone else, “I like you,” is suddenly being charged with sexual harassment."
posted by elsietheeel at 7:41 AM on November 20


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