The Dream
February 28, 2018 10:00 AM Subscribe
Why I'm Writing Captain America, and why it scares the hell out of me - Ta-Nehisi Coates on relaunching the iconic character (along with artist Leinil Yu).
I'm so stoked about this. And yeah, not least because it will make many racist assholes' heads explode.
posted by suelac at 10:27 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by suelac at 10:27 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
People are more than a little worried about Marvels latest reboot, what with previous reboots trashing their sales, a dumb as hell event about pretend nazis coinciding with an opportunistic seige by actual Nazis, and the current editor being a white dude who goes by the name “Akira”. Announcements so far have been pretty same-old same-old, but this one I’m pretty hopeful for.
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by Artw at 10:36 AM on February 28, 2018
Whatever happened to Hydra Cap, then?
I think everyone is coming around to pretending that never happened. But technically I guess the current cap is a cosmic cube replica and they have the still-a-Nazi original tucked away somewhere?
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think everyone is coming around to pretending that never happened. But technically I guess the current cap is a cosmic cube replica and they have the still-a-Nazi original tucked away somewhere?
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
[Cap] is “a man out of time,” a walking emblem of greatest-generation propaganda brought to life in this splintered postmodern time. Thus, Captain America is not so much tied to America as it is, but to an America of the imagined past. [...] Writing is about questions for me—not answers. And Captain America, the embodiment of a kind of Lincolnesque optimism, poses a direct question for me: Why would anyone believe in The Dream?nothing fills my heart more with joy than letting a progressively more-and-more capable writer of comics and a brilliant writer of political opinion take on a foundational, American mythos, that of exceptionalism and a white-washed past, and to confront it with as much honesty as he did T'Challa's autocracy
posted by runt at 10:40 AM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
I think everyone is coming around to pretending that never happened. But technically I guess the current cap is a cosmic cube replica and they have the still-a-Nazi original tucked away somewhere?
So the nonsense cup runneth over, then
posted by billjings at 10:46 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
So the nonsense cup runneth over, then
posted by billjings at 10:46 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
The only thing I remember about the Nazi Cap resolution was that it was bad enough that even Marvel tacitly admitted it was bad by giving it to the NYT to report before they even released the issue.
posted by middleclasstool at 10:47 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by middleclasstool at 10:47 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
is it just me or does it feel like a black man is being asked to fix an american icon that a mediocre white man almost nearly ruined, and the odds are he'll just be hated for it?
Not unlike the 2008 presidential election.
Anything Obama or Coates do will be hated by a certain set of people, and that set of people can go fuck themselves.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:55 AM on February 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
Not unlike the 2008 presidential election.
Anything Obama or Coates do will be hated by a certain set of people, and that set of people can go fuck themselves.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:55 AM on February 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
I think Mark Waid did the “fixing” thing with the Cap equivalent of Superman:Grounded. Didn’t read it, but I didn’t hear about it being horrible or anything.
posted by Artw at 10:57 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 10:57 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
He's being brought in to pen the storyline that will be the engine-room for the inevitable cinematic reboot, thereby renewing Disney's license to print money. Black Panther proved the guy can make bank with his imagination and flair translated to the big screen.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:59 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:59 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've seen a cartoon that summarizes the ending, not unintentionally showing it for the crapfest that it was all along, but I can't find it now. On the other hand, I did run across this meme, so there's that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:00 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:00 AM on February 28, 2018
Has anyone gotten Cornel West's take yet?
posted by leotrotsky at 11:13 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 11:13 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh, I am so excited about this.
posted by sarcasticah at 11:15 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by sarcasticah at 11:15 AM on February 28, 2018
Re: West, Coates seems to have a target on his back just by virtue of his success. Evidently there’s a subset of intellectuals who view the very existence of his career with some disdain. I read someone recently, can’t remember who, who had an AA Studies professor tell him something like “Coates hasn’t written or said anything that isn’t in my syllabus.” To which the other guy responded “Then I guess you should have submitted your syllabus to The Atlantic.”
Success is always going to spark a resentment in someone.
posted by middleclasstool at 11:34 AM on February 28, 2018 [34 favorites]
Success is always going to spark a resentment in someone.
posted by middleclasstool at 11:34 AM on February 28, 2018 [34 favorites]
Success is always going to spark a resentment in someone.
Oh absolutely. My comment was 100% snark. West is loathe to share the spotlight with anyone he sees as competition, which is why he's gone after Coates, Obama, Melissa Harris-Perry, and Michael Eric Dyson.
That said, honestly it's deeply disheartening to see someone who's loomed so large on the intellectual landscape to act so small.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:28 PM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Oh absolutely. My comment was 100% snark. West is loathe to share the spotlight with anyone he sees as competition, which is why he's gone after Coates, Obama, Melissa Harris-Perry, and Michael Eric Dyson.
That said, honestly it's deeply disheartening to see someone who's loomed so large on the intellectual landscape to act so small.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:28 PM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
@middleclasstool there a real criticisms of Coates that comes from the radical left mostly in that his arguments for reform are grounded less in liberation (ie dismantling of structures of power) and more in progressivism (ie using existing structures of power to achieve things like reparations)
I like Coates. I think he's a good stepping stone for a lot of people to get more into radical thought. it's amazing that even the liberalish, white, middle-class people I used to try to prod into action knew about him. but I also understand the desire from the radical left to push him to do more - his platform is huge and those liberalish, white, middle-class people are still not organizing very accountably and very rarely for things like reparations
it's a criticism that I think can be hard for his fans and followers to take because, to them, he's their bellwether for social consciousness. but for an organizer working on the ground, facing bureaucracy and danger, though, his arguments aren't new (see WEB DuBois, for example) and they aren't producing real results. an organizer just sees white people quoting him or loving him when they're prodded about donations or volunteering - a more intellectually rigorous version of 'my sister dated a black guy so I can't be racist'
it may be misplaced anger - the root of the above is white supremacy, after all. but it's understandable, I think, when you start seeing all these costumes of wokeness that never result in any sacrificing of privilege or doing the actual work required to be the changes you want to see in the world
posted by runt at 12:35 PM on February 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
I like Coates. I think he's a good stepping stone for a lot of people to get more into radical thought. it's amazing that even the liberalish, white, middle-class people I used to try to prod into action knew about him. but I also understand the desire from the radical left to push him to do more - his platform is huge and those liberalish, white, middle-class people are still not organizing very accountably and very rarely for things like reparations
it's a criticism that I think can be hard for his fans and followers to take because, to them, he's their bellwether for social consciousness. but for an organizer working on the ground, facing bureaucracy and danger, though, his arguments aren't new (see WEB DuBois, for example) and they aren't producing real results. an organizer just sees white people quoting him or loving him when they're prodded about donations or volunteering - a more intellectually rigorous version of 'my sister dated a black guy so I can't be racist'
it may be misplaced anger - the root of the above is white supremacy, after all. but it's understandable, I think, when you start seeing all these costumes of wokeness that never result in any sacrificing of privilege or doing the actual work required to be the changes you want to see in the world
posted by runt at 12:35 PM on February 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
Those of you who’ve never read a Captain America comic book or seen him in the Marvel movies would be forgiven for thinking of Captain America as an unblinking mascot for American nationalism. In fact, the best thing about the story of Captain America is the implicit irony.I can't express how happy I was to see this news and then read this article this morning. TNC will undoubtedly tackle some heavy stuff, because he's TNC. But he makes it clear in this article that he gets Steve Rogers and has every intention of honoring that.
...Rogers’s transformation into Captain America is underwritten by the military. But, perhaps haunted by his own roots in powerlessness, he is a dissident just as likely to be feuding with his superiors in civilian and military governance as he is to be fighting with the supervillain Red Skull.
I don't need yet another "deconstruction" from an edgy writer whose entire thesis is "What if it turned out your hero is actually an asshole?" Steve Rogers was never here to be the jingoist wank-fest some people want him to be.
I wish he'd been given the title for Sam Wilson as Captain America, too. Sam in the role was a great idea that turned into a criminally wasted opportunity, and Marvel owes everyone an apology for the Nazi Cap shitshow. But I'm really excited about this. It's the first time Marvel has put out any news about a top-tier character that has made me actually happy in a long time.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:37 PM on February 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
for an organizer working on the ground, facing bureaucracy and danger, though, his arguments aren't new and they aren't producing results.
What has produced results? Has anyone anywhere ever had success dismantling structures of power in the context of race in America, as opposed to using existing structures of power? The schools in the south were desegregated by the force of the federal government, so was the US Military.
Liberation seems like the perfect that is the enemy of the good.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:41 PM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
What has produced results? Has anyone anywhere ever had success dismantling structures of power in the context of race in America, as opposed to using existing structures of power? The schools in the south were desegregated by the force of the federal government, so was the US Military.
Liberation seems like the perfect that is the enemy of the good.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:41 PM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
I actually found Ta-Nehisi Coates years and years ago because of something he wrote about comics. As much as I loved everything else he wrote about, I really just wanted him to write about comics. And then write comics. And so I'm delighted for this next phase of his career.
I like his Black Panther stuff but he definitely took a while to figure out how to pace monthly comics. And that's fine -- it's not a skill that comes easily to everyone.
I am really excited to see what he does with Cap. I think he won't shy away from the conflict but I definitely think there will be an optimism there that I think the character needs. I think whatever he does will be refreshing and (I hope) a course-correction from a lot of Marvel's ... er, weirdness ... lately.
(Plus, it's really cool that both the writer and interior artist on this are men of color.)
posted by darksong at 12:47 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I like his Black Panther stuff but he definitely took a while to figure out how to pace monthly comics. And that's fine -- it's not a skill that comes easily to everyone.
I am really excited to see what he does with Cap. I think he won't shy away from the conflict but I definitely think there will be an optimism there that I think the character needs. I think whatever he does will be refreshing and (I hope) a course-correction from a lot of Marvel's ... er, weirdness ... lately.
(Plus, it's really cool that both the writer and interior artist on this are men of color.)
posted by darksong at 12:47 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
What has produced results? Has anyone anywhere ever had success dismantling structures of power in the context of race in America, as opposed to using existing structures of power?
lots of things? in my city, recently, different radical groups worked really hard on ending cash bail and pushing policies and agendas to the city council for years. a version just passed and now they're working on making the policy retroactive, all this a small part of the larger organizing that's happening via the Movement for Black Lives platform. google SONG and the Black Mama's Bail-Out Fund or M4BL
there's also the Coalition of Immokalee Workers and their call for a nationwide strike. there's the work Jobs for Justice and 9to5 has done this past decade to raise minimum wages everywhere, something that we're seeing take effect in a lot of areas. there's the work I've seen done by my own group in pushing our cities to pass resolutions to take down the Confederate Memorial in my city that was inspired by the work that was done in New Orleans by Take 'em Down NoLa
there's likely thousands of different things like this that doesn't get covered in the news or where some local politician takes credit for happening and I know a great many of these groups are purposefully and intentionally decentering whiteness in their own midst, letting PoC lead, and talking openly and intentionally about power even within their own organization. and sure, these are small, incremental, piecemeal things but they're happening because we're all dreaming of liberation. those who dream of progressivism jump into party politics and public policy - and down that road is every criticism the DNC has faced since, well, forever
posted by runt at 12:48 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
lots of things? in my city, recently, different radical groups worked really hard on ending cash bail and pushing policies and agendas to the city council for years. a version just passed and now they're working on making the policy retroactive, all this a small part of the larger organizing that's happening via the Movement for Black Lives platform. google SONG and the Black Mama's Bail-Out Fund or M4BL
there's also the Coalition of Immokalee Workers and their call for a nationwide strike. there's the work Jobs for Justice and 9to5 has done this past decade to raise minimum wages everywhere, something that we're seeing take effect in a lot of areas. there's the work I've seen done by my own group in pushing our cities to pass resolutions to take down the Confederate Memorial in my city that was inspired by the work that was done in New Orleans by Take 'em Down NoLa
there's likely thousands of different things like this that doesn't get covered in the news or where some local politician takes credit for happening and I know a great many of these groups are purposefully and intentionally decentering whiteness in their own midst, letting PoC lead, and talking openly and intentionally about power even within their own organization. and sure, these are small, incremental, piecemeal things but they're happening because we're all dreaming of liberation. those who dream of progressivism jump into party politics and public policy - and down that road is every criticism the DNC has faced since, well, forever
posted by runt at 12:48 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I mean, I'll say this much - when your dream is to use politics to enact change, you'll settle for far less than when your dream is to enact liberation
the day-to-day workings of change looks like progressivism but the organizing philosophy is decidedly not. nobody does radical work because they dream of becoming a Democrat. in the world of comics and chatter, it's a fair argument to ask that we aim for liberation, not practicalities
posted by runt at 12:59 PM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
the day-to-day workings of change looks like progressivism but the organizing philosophy is decidedly not. nobody does radical work because they dream of becoming a Democrat. in the world of comics and chatter, it's a fair argument to ask that we aim for liberation, not practicalities
posted by runt at 12:59 PM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
What I read out of West's complaints (and others) on Coates is that Coates has too narrow a focus, and seemingly a resentment for the visibility that Coates has acquired because of his allegedly too-narrowly-focused work. Yet Coates has never once pretended to anything else. And Coates has even amplified his own critics on many occasions without clapback or resentment. Given the sort of visibility he has, his humility is downright inspiring.
The guy does great work. He's also not interested in being someone other people want him to be.
Kinda one more reason I'm so glad he landed this particular gig.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:25 PM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
The guy does great work. He's also not interested in being someone other people want him to be.
Kinda one more reason I'm so glad he landed this particular gig.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:25 PM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
I'm so excited by this news! But before I can be properly ecstatic I want confirmation that the rumor of Nick "fucking Hydra Cap" Spencer taking over Amazing Spider-Man isn't true.
I hope that Coates's run consists of 100% Cap punching Nazis and KKK schmucks while also supporting labor unions, Black Lives Matter, and universal healthcare. Go fully automated luxury gay superhero communism, Steve Rogers!
posted by nicebookrack at 1:37 PM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
I hope that Coates's run consists of 100% Cap punching Nazis and KKK schmucks while also supporting labor unions, Black Lives Matter, and universal healthcare. Go fully automated luxury gay superhero communism, Steve Rogers!
posted by nicebookrack at 1:37 PM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
I am tentatively up to read this but I want the first issue to be like “Nazi Cap was a hallucination”.
posted by corb at 3:18 PM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 3:18 PM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I read someone recently, can’t remember who, who had an AA Studies professor tell him something like “Coates hasn’t written or said anything that isn’t in my syllabus.” To which the other guy responded “Then I guess you should have submitted your syllabus to The Atlantic.”
What I like about Coates is that he takes me along on his journey rather than just presents me with a bunch of stuff that he thinks. The originality is in the delivery as well as the ideas.
posted by srboisvert at 3:22 PM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
What I like about Coates is that he takes me along on his journey rather than just presents me with a bunch of stuff that he thinks. The originality is in the delivery as well as the ideas.
posted by srboisvert at 3:22 PM on February 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
This might be a better question for a discussion about AAE, but...
I’ve noticed that Coates uses the word “females” when he means women. Normally I would find this dehumanizing, but he also uses “males” as a stand-in for “men”. (I noticed this in the Fresh Air interview.) Is this typical in AAE, or is there another read Coates uses “males and females” instead of “men and women”?
posted by pxe2000 at 3:51 PM on February 28, 2018
I’ve noticed that Coates uses the word “females” when he means women. Normally I would find this dehumanizing, but he also uses “males” as a stand-in for “men”. (I noticed this in the Fresh Air interview.) Is this typical in AAE, or is there another read Coates uses “males and females” instead of “men and women”?
posted by pxe2000 at 3:51 PM on February 28, 2018
Is he a military veteran maybe? That usage is pretty common there.
posted by corb at 5:50 PM on February 28, 2018
posted by corb at 5:50 PM on February 28, 2018
I’ve noticed that Coates uses the word “females” when he means women. Normally I would find this dehumanizing, but he also uses “males” as a stand-in for “men”.
He writes about white supremacy in terms of dehumanization and violence specifically done to "black bodies" by the state and culture. I guessed, but don't know, that it's as a reminder of that dehumanization.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:06 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
He writes about white supremacy in terms of dehumanization and violence specifically done to "black bodies" by the state and culture. I guessed, but don't know, that it's as a reminder of that dehumanization.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 6:06 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's a Gen-X thing. We're the generation who grew up with "woman" as an epithet. So "female" is the polite euphemism for "Woman," as our Boomer elders would brook no tolerance for women acting like actual human beings.
Our elders and less-enlightened peers took the "female" tag and applied it to an imagined sub-human caste, and as we are not as quick on our feet as we were in the '90s, Gen-X men who should know better sometimes forget and use the "polite" term of "female."
Not an excuse. An apology. Women are who they want to be, and I'm married to someone who's a woman, and it's great!
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:04 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Our elders and less-enlightened peers took the "female" tag and applied it to an imagined sub-human caste, and as we are not as quick on our feet as we were in the '90s, Gen-X men who should know better sometimes forget and use the "polite" term of "female."
Not an excuse. An apology. Women are who they want to be, and I'm married to someone who's a woman, and it's great!
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:04 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
This brought to mind an interesting Steven Attewell post on how Captain America has never really worked except as a progressive superhero:
posted by mark k at 8:52 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Steve Rogers grew up poor in the Great Depression, the son of a single mother [ . . . ] And he came of age in New York City at a time when the New Deal was in full swing, Fiorello LaGuardia was mayor, the American Labor Party was a major force in city politics, labor unions were on the move, the Abraham Lincoln Brigade was organizing to fight fascism in Spain in the name of the Popular Front, and a militant anti-racist movement was growing that equated segregation at home with Nazism abroad that will eventually feed into the “Double V” campaign.That Coates respects this element of the character, while not fully agreeing with his optimism, sounds like it could be fascinating. The trolling of right-wing whiners is a nice bonus.
posted by mark k at 8:52 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, Mark Waid has in no way ruined Captain America and his abbreviated run is great. Coates addressing the fundamental injustice of Black Panther is also a really surprising and excellent turn. And if Cornel West and someone disagree, Brother West is probably correct.
posted by koavf at 9:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by koavf at 9:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Fuck my life, Hydra Cap writer and Twitter jerkass Nick Spencer is indeed taking over Amazing Spider-Man, please God make him flop
I hope that Coates wins an Eisner and stabs Neck Spincer in the mouth with it
posted by nicebookrack at 7:56 AM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
I hope that Coates wins an Eisner and stabs Neck Spincer in the mouth with it
posted by nicebookrack at 7:56 AM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Spacetwinks thread: "without massive outside success - like coates, ahmed, rowell, many others - a lotta comic publishers are gonna pick you up by being a friend or a friend of a friend, and so if you ain't at the parties at SDCC or whatnot, you're shit outta luck. which goes a very long way to helping explain why the same people keep getting books, constantly shuffling around the writers, and why new writers are so often people who look just like them. it's 'networking,' if you wanna be polite with your words"
No women (let alone WOC) writers announced for Marvel's "Fresh Start" yet, even though I know Kelly Thompson has an exclusive contract with them.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:17 AM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
No women (let alone WOC) writers announced for Marvel's "Fresh Start" yet, even though I know Kelly Thompson has an exclusive contract with them.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:17 AM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Fuck my life, Hydra Cap writer and Twitter jerkass Nick Spencer is indeed taking over Amazing Spider-Man, please God make him flop
Yeesh, and I thought with Slott finally leaving we were seeing a ray of hope
No women (let alone WOC) writers announced for Marvel's "Fresh Start" yet, even though I know Kelly Thompson has an exclusive contract with them.
They should try pretending to be a fake Japanese guy. That apparently does wonders for your career at Marvel.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:05 PM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeesh, and I thought with Slott finally leaving we were seeing a ray of hope
No women (let alone WOC) writers announced for Marvel's "Fresh Start" yet, even though I know Kelly Thompson has an exclusive contract with them.
They should try pretending to be a fake Japanese guy. That apparently does wonders for your career at Marvel.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:05 PM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Speaking of gay luxury space communism, I keep wondering when some writer is going to dive into the fact that Brooklyn in the '30s was fulla queers
I don't really expect Coates to think about that, but it would be nice if someone beyond the fanfiction writers researched that
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 3:06 PM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't really expect Coates to think about that, but it would be nice if someone beyond the fanfiction writers researched that
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 3:06 PM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't know whether this is the sort of thing Coates can (or should) fix, but I have a problem with Captain America.
You know the iconic cover with Cap punching Hitler? As a morale booster and shaper of public opinion it was great, but if we imagine it against actual history ... why did the Holocaust happen? So if we have a C.A. set at the time we need some bullshit reason about how Nazis kept him from defeating them by using magic or whatever.
You could make similar criticisms about other superheroes or plead ignorance on the part of their authors, but Coates is an African-American writing a contemporary story about a superhero who is specifically committed to the professed virtues of America. How does he explain why Cap wasn't at the forefront of the marches for civil rights? Why wasn't he protecting the kids who wanted to go to a decent school? This isn't like the Cap-Hitler problem because in that continuity Cap wasn't striding around Berlin. This is a superhero in America who should have been fighting things he saw every day. How can Coates square the circle?
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:10 PM on March 1, 2018
You know the iconic cover with Cap punching Hitler? As a morale booster and shaper of public opinion it was great, but if we imagine it against actual history ... why did the Holocaust happen? So if we have a C.A. set at the time we need some bullshit reason about how Nazis kept him from defeating them by using magic or whatever.
You could make similar criticisms about other superheroes or plead ignorance on the part of their authors, but Coates is an African-American writing a contemporary story about a superhero who is specifically committed to the professed virtues of America. How does he explain why Cap wasn't at the forefront of the marches for civil rights? Why wasn't he protecting the kids who wanted to go to a decent school? This isn't like the Cap-Hitler problem because in that continuity Cap wasn't striding around Berlin. This is a superhero in America who should have been fighting things he saw every day. How can Coates square the circle?
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:10 PM on March 1, 2018
How does he explain why Cap wasn't at the forefront of the marches for civil rights? Why wasn't he protecting the kids who wanted to go to a decent school? This isn't like the Cap-Hitler problem because in that continuity Cap wasn't striding around Berlin. This is a superhero in America who should have been fighting things he saw every day. How can Coates square the circle?
The same way that it's always been explained? He missed the entire thing, because Captain America was frozen during the entirety of the 50s and 60s and the several decades after?
Or have I missed something? Is Coates's version some AU where he's never frozen?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:59 PM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
The same way that it's always been explained? He missed the entire thing, because Captain America was frozen during the entirety of the 50s and 60s and the several decades after?
Or have I missed something? Is Coates's version some AU where he's never frozen?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:59 PM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
By and large--and this is inconsistent, because comics--Marvel's continuity exists in a fuzzy 15-year timespan reaching back to the origin of the Fantastic Four... which is always 15 years ago from "now," which of course is always moving forward. By that standard, Cap totally missed out on the civil rights movement.
Again, it's fuzzy. Kitty Pryde had her 17th birthday like three times. I'm not sure Kamala Khan has aged at all since she started (I asked her writer/creator G. Willow Wilson about this at a convention and she said she's operating under some basic editorial rules at Marvel to blur the flow of time so Kamala can stay a teen). Yet at least until recently, Frank Castle was specifically a Vietnam War veteran, and if that made him older and older, so be it.
As for why it didn't happen when Cap was first brought back to publishing in the '60s? Marvel didn't jump hard on the movement at the time. I think there are things in the company's history that show their sympathies leaned toward the civil rights movement at the time, but it's not like they made it a primary theme company-wide (or we'd constantly hear about their brave past today).
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:23 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Again, it's fuzzy. Kitty Pryde had her 17th birthday like three times. I'm not sure Kamala Khan has aged at all since she started (I asked her writer/creator G. Willow Wilson about this at a convention and she said she's operating under some basic editorial rules at Marvel to blur the flow of time so Kamala can stay a teen). Yet at least until recently, Frank Castle was specifically a Vietnam War veteran, and if that made him older and older, so be it.
As for why it didn't happen when Cap was first brought back to publishing in the '60s? Marvel didn't jump hard on the movement at the time. I think there are things in the company's history that show their sympathies leaned toward the civil rights movement at the time, but it's not like they made it a primary theme company-wide (or we'd constantly hear about their brave past today).
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:23 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Not trying to be flippant about the civil rights movement at all, 'cause I wish Marvel had supported it more. I wish everyone had, but that's the past. Mostly I think Marvel is quick to pat itself on the back and tries really, really hard to duck criticism rather than face it head on.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:24 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:24 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, one of the main points of Cap is that he's Rip Van Winkle, bringing the best of the America's WW2-era ideals and values into our present. And groping with all the ways America failed to live up to those ideals while he was asleep. And celebrating the positive changes that have happened since then.
posted by straight at 10:25 PM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by straight at 10:25 PM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
I get that reference!
posted by Artw at 6:39 PM on March 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:39 PM on March 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Fair enough. I didn't appreciate the consequences of Rip van Winkle window moving forwards. I still think it's a bit awkward; it's not like racism wasn't a huge thing in WW2, even (especially?) in the US Army.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:32 AM on March 3, 2018
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:32 AM on March 3, 2018
Aha! I have the link for this!
(Probably via The Whelk, I'm just going to assume it is...)
posted by Artw at 7:05 AM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Probably via The Whelk, I'm just going to assume it is...)
posted by Artw at 7:05 AM on March 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Cap wants us to be better.
posted by The Whelk at 9:33 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:33 PM on March 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
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Also, I would probably proactively recommend staying out of the comments section of any article written about this situation. It will be bad for your mental health, and really make you realize how shitty people can be.
#teamtanehisi
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:14 AM on February 28, 2018 [13 favorites]