Erect without breath, As cold as death
March 5, 2018 7:59 PM   Subscribe

 
Not dong related, but definitely excremental. They brought in a dancing double for Mr. Jones. He got suited up, did one take, threw up and that was all.

Voting Pencilhead for national treasure!
posted by Samizdata at 8:25 PM on March 5


(Yes, he WAS Pencilhead in Mystery Men. AND he got to have a face too!)
posted by Samizdata at 8:26 PM on March 5 [2 favorites]


Del Toro: I don’t think it’s an accurate representation. It’s some form of fan art, I guess.

Del Toro is **very particular** about monster dick.
posted by Artw at 8:49 PM on March 5 [14 favorites]


Mystery Men, the mighty Pencilhead and all, has sadly fallen to the second best Superhero Movie of all time to Black Panther. It had one hell of a run, tho.

OK, now I'm going back to graduate school. That was the agreement.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:09 PM on March 5 [5 favorites]


MetaFilter: **very particular** about monster dick.
posted by hippybear at 9:14 PM on March 5 [12 favorites]


he confirmed he had seen the dildo, and bemoaned that "Dunkirk doesn’t have that problem.”

While they are entirely different sorts of movies, I truly wonder what the Dunkirk Dildo would actually look like.
posted by hippybear at 9:16 PM on March 5 [8 favorites]


"Nulungin tiang! Tiang Ten Ngresep!"
posted by Lynsey at 9:20 PM on March 5


While they are entirely different sorts of movies, I truly wonder what the Dunkirk Dildo would actually look like.

A U-Boat, surely.
posted by thivaia at 9:45 PM on March 5 [7 favorites]


he confirmed he had seen the dildo, and bemoaned that "Dunkirk doesn’t have that problem.”

But Dunkirk is a Christopher Nolan film AND it involves Harry Styles, two factors that have historically led to a lot of fanfic. Guillermo, I promise there's actually more porn that's been written about Dunkirk. (I'm not going to check on this.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:48 PM on March 5 [1 favorite]


Guy Davis actually did the monster designs seen in the movie, so I guess he would be the guy to go to if you wanted to know what it actually looks like.
posted by Artw at 9:54 PM on March 5 [2 favorites]


Am I the only one who thought this movie was (beautifully shot) garbage? Almost all the women are shown partially or fully nude within 60 seconds of being introduced, they exist solely to serve, feed, or fuck the men (or male-presenting characters), and/or as recipients of abuse. Never mind the revolting subtext around the dude’s fingers. A romantic fairy tale, are you kidding me? Unfulfilled woman who cleans for a living finally gets to fuck some dude before cliche consequences transpire. Also has to work against bad guy whose wife also cleans for a living before fucking him in her 3 minutes of screen time. The black woman cleans too, and cooks, but exists as an object lesson about racism and therefore isn’t seen as a sexual object.

“But it’s a homage to Swamp Thing!” So? Del Toro couldn’t make her a scientist? That’s where the realism would break down? She really has to masturbate during the opening credits? The whole plot has to revolve around a sexual relationship because she can’t just be the person who teaches the fish man to communicate and prompt a huge breakthrough for science? Nope, she has to fuck him.

What a cliche piece of shit. And he won multiple Oscars for this. I’d like for 2018 to discover how to make movies where women do not fuck men into enlightenment before being conveniently silenced or killed as a metaphor for freedom.
posted by Autumnheart at 10:04 PM on March 5 [39 favorites]


Seems like you actually want some other movie which frankly sounds a bit boring.

Anyway, I'm with this guy.
posted by Artw at 10:13 PM on March 5 [3 favorites]




I didn't see it but it sounded to me like it's E.T. but for people who wanted to see a lady fuck E.T.
posted by atoxyl at 11:15 PM on March 5 [13 favorites]


> Slap*Happy:
"Mystery Men, the mighty Pencilhead and all, has sadly fallen to the second best Superhero Movie of all time to Black Panther. It had one hell of a run, tho.

OK, now I'm going back to graduate school. That was the agreement."


Okay, haven't been able to see BP, but I will grant you that.

That, and graduate school. You're an adult now.

Doug Jones still needs to be added to national treasure status though and I am NOT BUDGING ON THAT ONE!
posted by Samizdata at 11:30 PM on March 5 [2 favorites]


forgetting for a second he is on Metafilter, he stops for a moment and decides to clarify NOT the political Doug Jones, the skinny bendy Doug Jones...
posted by Samizdata at 11:31 PM on March 5 [3 favorites]


Heh. That's quite a tag.

Not much Trek in there. Get those ganglia out.
posted by Artw at 11:36 PM on March 5


Seen on twitter: Grinding Nemo
posted by ryanrs at 1:45 AM on March 6 [9 favorites]


> ryanrs:
"Seen on twitter: Grinding Nemo"

Wait a minute... They met IN PERSON! IN THE 60'S!
posted by Samizdata at 2:04 AM on March 6




I meant to post this as an FPP but I'll drop it here: Metafilter favorite Lindsay Ellis's video essay on Shape of Water and the history of monster boyfriends.
posted by octothorpe at 4:04 AM on March 6 [4 favorites]


I listened to an interview with Doug Jones recently, and they talked about the monster butt. Del Toro knew the fishman butt worked after consulting with his family, but Jones said that he knew it worked after walking past Octavia Spencer a couple times, and hearing her say "Mmm, mmm mmm!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:35 AM on March 6 [1 favorite]


Never mind the revolting subtext around the dude’s fingers.

What is the subtext around the dude's fingers?
posted by Mavri at 5:12 AM on March 6


One for Sega Dreamcast owners.
posted by Wordshore at 5:14 AM on March 6


Almost all the women are shown partially or fully nude within 60 seconds of being introduced, they exist solely to serve, feed, or fuck the men (or male-presenting characters), and/or as recipients of abuse.

I was liking the film well enough, but fell in love with it when Elisa takes ZERO shit from Strickland and publically tells him "Fuck you" in a way he understands but can get away with. The steel and fire in her eyes was on point.

Otherwise, yes, she liked sex and fishman provided her with an outlet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:31 AM on March 6 [3 favorites]


I did not see the film, just the trailers and bits shown at the Oscars, but my first thought on seeing Fishman was OMG that's the Creature From The Black Lagoon from the old 50s movie. That ruined him for me as a romantic lead.
posted by mermayd at 5:47 AM on March 6 [2 favorites]


It was! Del Toro saw Black Lagoon at age 7 and this was his answer to it.
"The creature was the most beautiful design I'd ever seen," he recalls. "And I saw him swimming under [actress] Julie Adams, and I loved that the creature was in love with her, and I felt an almost existential desire for them to end up together. Of course, it didn't happen." So young del Toro made it happen, sketching the fish-man and his love interest over and over again. "I had them eating ice cream, on a double bicycle, having dinner," he says.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:57 AM on March 6 [5 favorites]


So young del Toro made it happen, sketching the fish-man and his love interest over and over again. "I had them eating ice cream, on a double bicycle, having dinner," he says.

Finally, a fish that needs a bicycle.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:04 AM on March 6 [34 favorites]


The whole plot has to revolve around a sexual relationship because she can’t just be the person who teaches the fish man to communicate and prompt a huge breakthrough for science?

That movie has already been made, with a real subject. I'm not sure what the point of remaking it with a chaste woman and the Creature from the Black Lagoon would be. As it is, and especially WRT your assertion that Elisa "exist[s] solely to serve, feed, or fuck" the fishman, I'll repeat something that I said WRT Wonder Woman and someone who didn't like that movie: I don't know which movie you were watching.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:26 AM on March 6 [7 favorites]


Okay, so I took the piss out of this lawsuit alleging plagiarism of a play about a dolphin previously, because I was all "does she fuck the dolphin?", but... maybe she fucks the dolphin?
posted by Artw at 6:45 AM on March 6


Autumnheart, not really understanding most of your issues. In a huge swath of scifi/fantasy, the trope is “white human male fucks a hot blue woman or a hot female robot” and the dude is the agent while the hot fantasy woman is the object of interest. Nobody ever looks at the dude and goes “gee looks like his role is just to end up fucking the girl.” The movie reverses that, so every character and a large portion of the audience who like the movie perceive the fishman as the hot and tragic love interest, not the main character.

I mean personally, I liked that she was jerking it every morning. When I saw her routine I was like, dang that’s what *I* DO. you hardly see women being the horny agents in media, usually they’re supposed to be hot-but-not-horny damsel, some pristine and pure object to be seduced. See also: the trend where noncon themes permeate general audience movies, but when sex is consensual the rating gets bumped up to R or NC-17 because women LIKING sex is apparently too obscene.

Like, there is very much a need for escapist stories for women/poc/queer ppl/etc, I totally agree with that. I would be head over heels for more regular-ass movies where the space ranger/superhero/wizard/etc main characters just happen to be women/minorities and I don’t have to think about the crappitude I face IRL. But I’d like to see that in its own story, there’s no need to wish it on Shape of Water. I think there’s also a place for stories specifically examining real life oppression and, IMO, it is way better to look that monster in the eye than to do the weak-ass roundabout metaphor a lot of sf/f stories do a la “here’s the racism metaphor story where a fantasy race is enslaved by ALL humans because we wouldn’t want to hurt white people’s feelings!”

My only misgivings for SoW is 1. the cat scene, and 2. Fishman is not hot enough. But apparently a lot of people think the fishman is hot (I’m guessing the same kind of people who would choose to romance Garrus or Thane in Mass Effect). I would have made his face more humanlike, but it is true his butt is A+
posted by picklenickle at 7:22 AM on March 6 [16 favorites]


Sure there's metaphor in there or whatever, and the Oscars folks desperately wanted the movie to be about diversity or inclusion to a degree which bordered on stretching things , but there's also a sense in which Del Toro doesn;t really wnat the monster to be a metaphor for anything and just really, really loves monsters, and the joy he takes in that is kind of infectious.

Anyway, here's the traditional Onion link.
posted by Artw at 7:33 AM on March 6 [1 favorite]


I saw it last night and thought the movie was stupendously underwhelming. Great acting all around, have zero issues with the sex, but it was just... trite? Blah? Maybe even boring?
posted by lydhre at 7:48 AM on March 6


1. the cat scene

But that was the most tense part of the film for me! I was so worried, because most monster movies this is the catalyst that would cause the sympathetic supporting character to either drive out the monster or call the authorities. But then for Giles to be like, "Well, he is a wild creature" and then they find the Amphibian Man in the theater and nothing happens was what made me think this was more than just a typical film.
posted by FJT at 8:20 AM on March 6 [2 favorites]


+1 for the post title.
posted by dywypi at 8:32 AM on March 6


(Spoilers)



I understand the purpose of the cat scene. I just wish he had been interrupted or something, not to have the cat die. It’s just my own issue, really. Well, that and I guess when I saw it in the theater some people were laughing at that scene and that also really rubbed me the wrong way, but that is more my issue with the audience, I guess. I think if it were happening to me I wouldn’t have any ill will towards the fishman but I’d still be waaaaay sad about losing my cat.
posted by picklenickle at 9:19 AM on March 6 [3 favorites]


Doug Jones Had to Poop Before Getting Into His Fishman Costume for The Shape of Water

Having had an aquarium for many years as a kid, why didn't they pay it forward and have him cavort about with a #2 trailing along like a party balloon? It is the fishy way.
posted by lagomorphius at 9:33 AM on March 6 [6 favorites]


Aliens: humans in rubber suits; men with different plumbing.

A better-conceived fishman would help her release her ova into the water, then spread his sperm over them. Of course, because of his deficient understanding of human reproduction, she wouldn't survive the removal procedure. He is puzzled when all his children drown in their third trimester, causing the Freedom Caucus to rise up against him.

Or else, he could use his reproductive organ to suck her ova into a sac in his belly (sort of like the male seahorse), where they would reside safely until they hatched. In this case, she might not survive the removal, and he might die in childbirth. The children survive, but grow up feral, sterile, and unable to fit into either human or marine society.
posted by mule98J at 10:19 AM on March 6 [2 favorites]


Mule98J - you're presuming that interspecies fertilization would happen. I believe that her being human and him being fishman would prevent fertilization from happening to begin with.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:32 AM on March 6 [1 favorite]


(and now I have the urge to reread Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:32 AM on March 6 [3 favorites]


I realize the accepted description is fishman, but couldn't he be more of an amphibian? That could open up even more interesting reproductive strategies.
posted by TedW at 10:54 AM on March 6


"I felt an almost existential desire for them to end up together. Of course, it didn't happen." So young del Toro made it happen, sketching the fish-man and his love interest over and over again. "I had them eating ice cream, on a double bicycle, having dinner," he says.

oh my god so like literally Del Toro made swamp thing fan fiction and it won the oscar for best picture is what i am gathering from this right here
posted by halation at 10:56 AM on March 6 [22 favorites]


Well, these reproductive discussions assume she's basically human in that way. Given both what we learn of her earliest life and the last shot of her in the film, that's not necessarily a given.
posted by Four Ds at 10:59 AM on March 6 [4 favorites]


I am basically of the option that Father Dagon and Mother Hydra play a part in this, yes.
posted by Artw at 11:02 AM on March 6 [3 favorites]


> Almost all the women are shown partially or fully nude within 60 seconds of being introduced, they exist solely to serve, feed, or fuck the men (or male-presenting characters), and/or as recipients of abuse.

But...Elisa does have her own self-determined existence. She pleases herself sexually (I loved the inclusion of matter-of-fact masturbation), and loves music and movies, and has a very close friendship with her neighbor and a solid friendship with her coworker. And the entire point of her relationship with the creature is that he sees her as a complete person and that their relationship is mutually-fulfilling.

I'm not getting how you can interpret her character as there solely to serve/feed/fuck/be abused by the men.
posted by desuetude at 11:26 AM on March 6 [13 favorites]


In a huge swath of scifi/fantasy, the trope is “white human male fucks a hot blue woman or a hot female robot” and the dude is the agent while the hot fantasy woman is the object of interest. Nobody ever looks at the dude and goes “gee looks like his role is just to end up fucking the girl.” The movie reverses that, so every character and a large portion of the audience who like the movie perceive the fishman as the hot and tragic love interest, not the main character.

Like, I dunno Splash, for example? The Shape of Water literally reverses that.
posted by jetsetsc at 11:48 AM on March 6


I am kind of with Guillermo del Toro on the dildo looking totally unrealistic to me. Most species' intromittent organs* are pretty boring compared with Personally it occurred to me originally to pull inspiration from crocodilians, seafaring turtles, and other seafaring vertebrates like whales rather than fish or amphibians using amplexus, and I suspect del Toro was thinking similarly, given the famous explanatory hand gesture as to how PIV was even possible with the monster. There's a general theme of a long, usually fairly pointed anatomy there that slips from a pouch or other internal covering rather than, ah, filling in the same way as a human penis does. In several cases (e.g. whales) the organ in question is prehensile, which has frequently evolved in larger marine tetrapods in order to compensate for the difficulty of orienting genitals when all parties are shaped in a way geared towards minimizing drag in the water. I'd guess that is not a feature of this particular species, which to be honest looks like it's only partially aquatic rather than completely aquatic, but ymmv.

In any case, the texture is usually considerably softer than the general skin around the back and shoulders of the organism, which seems to be the texture the dildo liberally borrows from. I would expect a fairly boring soft, more delicate skin covering the organ, not a whorled texture of scales and ridges, and I would also expect there to be minimal pigmentation and, ah, protection for the soft tissue of the organ--after all, it's only extended in specific and presumably fairly easygoing circumstances.

(There are also fish with intromittent organs and internal fertilization, who also tend to keep them tucked up internally in use. The common mosquitofish Gambusia spp. may be the most familiar to the North American reader, but I think they're fairly common in poecilid fish generally.)

The monster in question is definitely a tetrapod of some form and does not particularly appear to resemble any known amphibian I'm aware of, with its well defined sharp scales, sharp musculature, and relatively narrow, deep jaw. (Amphibian skulls are usually considerably flatter, and I don't personally know any exceptions either extant or extinct.) I would hazard that it fits closest either to primates or aquatic reptiles, with serious convergent evolution occuring in both cases; it's genuinely difficult for me to guess where it came from given notes about its dentition (which most resemble certain armored extinct fishes like Dunkleosteus and are certainly not mammalian!). It's hard for me to draw much more context about the function and likely anatomy of the organ without knowing that kind of phylogenetic context, really.

*technically, penises are mammal-specific and require a urethra routed through them to qualify; intromittent organ is the correct term for general organs specialized to convey sperm in all taxa, including some birds, cephalopods and other mollusks, insects and fish.
posted by sciatrix at 11:49 AM on March 6 [14 favorites]


I've just gone partway down a rabbithole trying to answer a question for myself: what would the Linnaean name for Fishman actually be?

I'm toying with Homo Lepidosiren; Lepidosiren is the genus for the lungfish, and it looks like the only existing species in that genus is a South American species to boot. What say you all?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:41 PM on March 6


Autumnheart: Almost all the women are shown partially or fully nude within 60 seconds of being introduced, they exist solely to serve, feed, or fuck the men (or male-presenting characters), and/or as recipients of abuse.

desuetude: ...the entire point of her relationship with the creature is that he sees her as a complete person and that their relationship is mutually-fulfilling. I'm not getting how you can interpret her character as there solely to serve/feed/fuck/be abused by the men.


Desuetude,
Here is a direct quote from fishman actor Doug Jones, from an interview with The Hollywood Reporter. I understand Jones is trying to be funny - but I think he's also honestly acknowledging a female fuck function that some of us disliked about the movie.

"There was always a romantic side to these characters and relationships on film that never got actualized all the way. Guillermo said this time, the monster’s going to actually fuck the girl. A gentler way to say it is that this is the creature from the wet, black lagoon who actually gets the girl this time."
posted by Jody Tresidder at 1:12 PM on March 6 [2 favorites]


MetaFilter: intromittent organ is the correct term
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 2:20 PM on March 6




Jody Tressider, it's not her SOLE function, though.
posted by desuetude at 9:16 PM on March 6 [3 favorites]


Jody Tressider, it's not her SOLE function, though.

Fish puns now is it, desuetude?

Fifty SHADS of Grey...!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 3:24 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]


Why does it say "determined" -- implying some sort of scientific process behind the design? I guess because "just made a weird looking dildo and is tying it to a popular movie where a woman and a fishman fuck" is a bad headline. Is there any sort of explanation, even a cursory bullshit one, as to the design from the designer?
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:03 PM on March 13


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