"Adulthood has always been a trick played on the whole of humanity."
January 27, 2019 9:37 AM Subscribe
Novelist Catherynne Valente has something to say (SLT thread) On why 'growing up' is a mug's game.
Space Opera has such a unique feeling of complete existential despair, mixed thoroughly with boundless hopeful joy. It captures all of the ridiculous contradictoriness of life itself. It was all very silly.
What I'm trying to say is, she's got some wisdom in that noggin of hers.
posted by meese at 9:59 AM on January 27, 2019
What I'm trying to say is, she's got some wisdom in that noggin of hers.
posted by meese at 9:59 AM on January 27, 2019
Oh maturity's a wrapped up package deal so it seems
And ditching teenage fantasy means ditching all your dreams
All your friends and peers and family solemnly tell you you will
Have to grow up be an adult yeah be bored and unfulfilled
Oh when no ones yet explained to me exactly what's so great
About slaving 50 years away on something that you hate
Look I'm meekly shuffling down the path of mediocrity
Well if that's your road then take it but it's not the road for me
Frank Turner. Writes good songs about growing old, or not.
posted by Telf at 10:30 AM on January 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
And ditching teenage fantasy means ditching all your dreams
All your friends and peers and family solemnly tell you you will
Have to grow up be an adult yeah be bored and unfulfilled
Oh when no ones yet explained to me exactly what's so great
About slaving 50 years away on something that you hate
Look I'm meekly shuffling down the path of mediocrity
Well if that's your road then take it but it's not the road for me
Frank Turner. Writes good songs about growing old, or not.
posted by Telf at 10:30 AM on January 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
The notion of what "being an adult" is still seems like contested ground, and it would be nice to read a popular history of the term. (surely one is due if not already here.) Valente isn't wrong at all and the weed callout is excellent, but the whole "yelling at boomers for being dumb about what people like" feels kind of played out to me even as I enjoy reading the takes. That is, it feels like the past X years have had a slight grinding background noise of "the millennials are killing things" and now the next Y years are going to have a much louder grinding background noise of "shut up, old man!"
That said, the verbing of adult is awful and I hate it.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:30 AM on January 27, 2019 [15 favorites]
That said, the verbing of adult is awful and I hate it.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:30 AM on January 27, 2019 [15 favorites]
Her observations hit Gen X, too (Threadreader):
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:38 AM on January 27, 2019 [21 favorites]
The reason my generation still plays in ball pits & reads comic books & plays dress up is that contemporary society has made most of the good parts of adult life financially unreachable: home, family, travel, even theater is $500 a ticketAlso, arch-Boomer Bill Maher, whose harangue about Millennials and their comics sparked Valente’s response, grew up on comics that were exclusively for kids, not ones that won the Pulitzer or National Book Awards, like later generations.
All that’s left is the crushing despair![…]
Give us back the social contract, make the hallmarks of adulthood remotely reachable for us, and maybe we’ll consider putting down the comics.
Probably not, but we’ll have a house to read them in.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:38 AM on January 27, 2019 [21 favorites]
That said, the verbing of adult is awful and I hate it.
Yes! I'm not sure why so much of the recent slang bothers me. I guess I am growing old, but it feels very contrived. Maybe slang created to be typed in text messages just grates me when I hear it out loud, but things like "adulting, feels, oh noes etc make me cringe when I hear them said out loud.
posted by Telf at 10:39 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yes! I'm not sure why so much of the recent slang bothers me. I guess I am growing old, but it feels very contrived. Maybe slang created to be typed in text messages just grates me when I hear it out loud, but things like "adulting, feels, oh noes etc make me cringe when I hear them said out loud.
posted by Telf at 10:39 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed Valente's rant., but I also enjoyed Maher's rant. I'll leave the consistency to the adults.
posted by Obscure Reference at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I started saying this same stuff when I was, like, 15. I am nearing 70 now and it is no less true. Possibly there are now more of us; I await further evidence.
posted by luaz at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by luaz at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
Also: generational competing is, IMO, a profound waste of energy.
posted by luaz at 10:52 AM on January 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by luaz at 10:52 AM on January 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
Oh man. I respect Ms. Valente - Deathless was amazing. And I think she's right, here.
posted by Quackles at 10:54 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Quackles at 10:54 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yes! I'm not sure why so much of the recent slang bothers me. I guess I am growing old, but it feels very contrived. Maybe slang created to be typed in text messages just grates me when I hear it out loud, but things like "adulting, feels, oh noes etc make me cringe when I hear them said out loud.
What about these three slang terms says to you that they were "created to be typed in text messages"? It's not like they're hard to say out loud. I mean, "adulting" is a classic case of a noun turning into a verb, which has been happening in English for essentially all of its recorded history.
posted by IjonTichy at 10:56 AM on January 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
What about these three slang terms says to you that they were "created to be typed in text messages"? It's not like they're hard to say out loud. I mean, "adulting" is a classic case of a noun turning into a verb, which has been happening in English for essentially all of its recorded history.
posted by IjonTichy at 10:56 AM on January 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
I mean, "adulting" is a classic case of a noun turning into a verb, which has been happening in English for essentially all of its recorded history.
Verbing is just a natural process.
posted by maxwelton at 11:00 AM on January 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
Verbing is just a natural process.
posted by maxwelton at 11:00 AM on January 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
Bookend this with the article about young people faking loving their jobs to, you know, keep their jobs, and it becomes more apparent that the distaste for words like "adulting" has more to do with the fact that it's insincere. It is just one of many insincere modern ways that people "connect" to one another, without depth or understanding. Because some bullshit one word phrase is supposed to sum up the entirety of an idea, which has always stood to me as the stupidest idea alive, because most things in life are deep and nuanced. Like the fake sincerity of loving their jobs, we also have fake sincerity about concepts like "adulting."
Really, it's the lack of sincerity in the phrase, and in the people who use it. However, taking in the article posted here, is that perhaps a response to an insincere world which treats them as though they should have access to a myriad of things they simply do not ave access to?
posted by deadaluspark at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2019 [5 favorites]
Really, it's the lack of sincerity in the phrase, and in the people who use it. However, taking in the article posted here, is that perhaps a response to an insincere world which treats them as though they should have access to a myriad of things they simply do not ave access to?
posted by deadaluspark at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2019 [5 favorites]
I put a distinction between acting childish and acting childlike. Childish being things like throwing a tantrum, not doing what's good for you, simplistic approaches to human relationships. Childlike being unconstrained by an "accepted" way of doing things, thinking outside the box, having a sense of wonder about the world. Childlike is great. Childish can get a little tiresome.
posted by downtohisturtles at 11:07 AM on January 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 11:07 AM on January 27, 2019 [17 favorites]
It's fun to note that we don't have "childing", just "childishness", that "to kid" is generally different, and "babying" is done to you, not by you. Also, "adult" can be used without an indefinite article as a state of being ("Act adult. ") but the same isn't true about other age based categorizations. ("Be child.")
The fundamental problem with "adulting" to me may be that there is nothing less adult than taking as a first principal that you are pretending to be one.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:10 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
The fundamental problem with "adulting" to me may be that there is nothing less adult than taking as a first principal that you are pretending to be one.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:10 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Do you know why millennials “refuse to grow up”?
Because we finally figured out that the whole idea is bullshit designed to suppress human joy enough to keep them grinding for an uncaring company for 50 years in unhappy marriages until death is a mercy.
I suspect that a lot of millennials would consider the "growing up" game if "grind for an uncaring company for 50 years" were actually part of the package on offer. 50 years of tedious, soul-sucking work for a faceless corporation isn't great, but it's a hell of a lot better than 50 years of 6-12 month contract jobs with 2-15 month gaps between them, and a sporadic amount of gig pickup work during the gaps.
People didn't shift over to "fuck boring-but-steady work and slow climbing of the corporate ladder; find work that makes you feel passionate" until the corporate ladder lost half its rungs and your best chance of a raise or promotion was to take a better job with the competition.
There's currently a delightful post making the rounds on Tumblr, based on an Onion article.
Onion: According to a Gallup report published Tuesday, over 95 percent of the nation’s grandfathers began their careers by walking straight into a place of business, saying “I’m the man for the job,” and receiving a position right there on the spot.
Tumblr user: Fun story my history teacher told us: his grandfather during the industrial revolution walked past a flyer which said “looking for smart strong boys” so he went into the factory, said “i’m strong and smart”, and he had that job from age 13 to 78
A lot of Boomers-and-older people think that "get a job" means "show up at places that have employees, and declare yourself willing to work," and that it may take 3 or 4 tries, and they kinda understand "sometimes it takes 40 tries" but they're really lost on "no, really, sometimes it takes 300-400 attempts, and job openings want a customized cover letter for every single application."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:14 AM on January 27, 2019 [68 favorites]
Because we finally figured out that the whole idea is bullshit designed to suppress human joy enough to keep them grinding for an uncaring company for 50 years in unhappy marriages until death is a mercy.
I suspect that a lot of millennials would consider the "growing up" game if "grind for an uncaring company for 50 years" were actually part of the package on offer. 50 years of tedious, soul-sucking work for a faceless corporation isn't great, but it's a hell of a lot better than 50 years of 6-12 month contract jobs with 2-15 month gaps between them, and a sporadic amount of gig pickup work during the gaps.
People didn't shift over to "fuck boring-but-steady work and slow climbing of the corporate ladder; find work that makes you feel passionate" until the corporate ladder lost half its rungs and your best chance of a raise or promotion was to take a better job with the competition.
There's currently a delightful post making the rounds on Tumblr, based on an Onion article.
Onion: According to a Gallup report published Tuesday, over 95 percent of the nation’s grandfathers began their careers by walking straight into a place of business, saying “I’m the man for the job,” and receiving a position right there on the spot.
Tumblr user: Fun story my history teacher told us: his grandfather during the industrial revolution walked past a flyer which said “looking for smart strong boys” so he went into the factory, said “i’m strong and smart”, and he had that job from age 13 to 78
A lot of Boomers-and-older people think that "get a job" means "show up at places that have employees, and declare yourself willing to work," and that it may take 3 or 4 tries, and they kinda understand "sometimes it takes 40 tries" but they're really lost on "no, really, sometimes it takes 300-400 attempts, and job openings want a customized cover letter for every single application."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:14 AM on January 27, 2019 [68 favorites]
The fundamental problem with "adulting" to me may be that there is nothing less adult than taking as a first principal that you are pretending to be one.
As I said, insincerity. The people who use this phrase most often seem to be the most inept at actually following through on the business of being an adult, thus their talk about "adulting" is almost always insincere. I mean, I'm not the best at being an adult by any stretch, but I don't talk about it like it's some weird thing I'm aspiring to rather than I already am.
I'm a god damned adult and I'm going to sit in the fucking ball pit as long as I god damned want because I paid for my food damn it!
posted by deadaluspark at 11:18 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
As I said, insincerity. The people who use this phrase most often seem to be the most inept at actually following through on the business of being an adult, thus their talk about "adulting" is almost always insincere. I mean, I'm not the best at being an adult by any stretch, but I don't talk about it like it's some weird thing I'm aspiring to rather than I already am.
I'm a god damned adult and I'm going to sit in the fucking ball pit as long as I god damned want because I paid for my food damn it!
posted by deadaluspark at 11:18 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I have no problem with the word "adulting" although I've never used it personally. It reminds me of the Allie Bosch comic about doing all the things. I totally get that feeling! It's just a verb version of putting on your big girl pants and taking care of the shit that needs to be done, even though inside you just want to curl up and stay in bed.
I don't really understand the hate, tbh, it's just shorthand for "being responsible" because that's what adults are supposed to be. Maybe I'm just not hanging out in the parts of the internet where people are using it annoyingly, because I don't see it very often.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2019 [19 favorites]
I don't really understand the hate, tbh, it's just shorthand for "being responsible" because that's what adults are supposed to be. Maybe I'm just not hanging out in the parts of the internet where people are using it annoyingly, because I don't see it very often.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2019 [19 favorites]
I always do get irritated when I hear someone making some sweeping generalization about an entire category/genre of art and/or the people who enjoy it -- their opinion is almost always groundless bullshit. Like the time a close friend of mine said she didn't like Canadian fiction because it was "depressing, boring, and weird". It would have been much more accurate and on point for her to say that she didn't like the Canadian fiction that had been our assigned reading in high school, because she hadn't otherwise read any Canadian fiction. I didn't try to argue with her, but began giving her Canadian novels as birthday and Christmas presents, carefully picking out ones I knew she would like, and she did really enjoy them and would often proceed to read more novels by the same authors of her own accord. She doesn't look down on Canadian fiction any more, only specific Canadian authors that she has read and doesn't like, which is a perfectly valid and informed stance to take.
Sneering at people for their tastes is treacherous ground at best. I mean, yes, people can be narrow-minded or immature in their tastes and it can be a good idea to tactfully introduce them to better things. People can invest money and time in their interests to an extent that is unhealthy and irresponsible. And there is always bad art in every genre. But to write off an entire genre of anything and all the people who enjoy it is so ignorant and obnoxious.
posted by orange swan at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Sneering at people for their tastes is treacherous ground at best. I mean, yes, people can be narrow-minded or immature in their tastes and it can be a good idea to tactfully introduce them to better things. People can invest money and time in their interests to an extent that is unhealthy and irresponsible. And there is always bad art in every genre. But to write off an entire genre of anything and all the people who enjoy it is so ignorant and obnoxious.
posted by orange swan at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Man, the Metafilter zeitgeist is really ganging up on me this morning...I woke up in a crappy mood anyway, then the money laundering and gratitude threads combined with this one have enflamed my already-simmering bitter despair into a blazing inferno of agony and rage at how shittingly unfair and terrible life is and how utterly atrocious people so often are to each other. Jesus Jumping Christ.
So far I've resisted the urge to start day drinking; I guess I'll go for a walk instead.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:22 AM on January 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
So far I've resisted the urge to start day drinking; I guess I'll go for a walk instead.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:22 AM on January 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
One of the things I like best about 'adult' is that the way some people pronounce it is very close to 'addled'.
Sounds about right to me. I feel a lot of things were clearer when I was a teenager - that's probably the most 'adult', least 'addled', I've been all my life.
Addendum: Boomers hate millenials, millenials hate boomers, Gen-Xers hate that noone bothers too much about them, and everyone hates teenagers. Everybody's got it wrong.
posted by doggod at 11:23 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Sounds about right to me. I feel a lot of things were clearer when I was a teenager - that's probably the most 'adult', least 'addled', I've been all my life.
Addendum: Boomers hate millenials, millenials hate boomers, Gen-Xers hate that noone bothers too much about them, and everyone hates teenagers. Everybody's got it wrong.
posted by doggod at 11:23 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Greg_Ace:
"Son, you're gonna drive me to drinkin', if you don't stop that MetaFilter linkin'."
posted by deadaluspark at 11:25 AM on January 27, 2019 [16 favorites]
"Son, you're gonna drive me to drinkin', if you don't stop that MetaFilter linkin'."
posted by deadaluspark at 11:25 AM on January 27, 2019 [16 favorites]
Gen-Xers hate that noone bothers too much about them
Just cause Peter Noone cares about them they get angry …
posted by Going To Maine at 11:28 AM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Just cause Peter Noone cares about them they get angry …
posted by Going To Maine at 11:28 AM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
"Son, you're gonna drive me to drinkin', if you don't stop that MetaFilter linkin'."
(hard driving honky-tonk guitar lick)
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:29 AM on January 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
(hard driving honky-tonk guitar lick)
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:29 AM on January 27, 2019 [12 favorites]
Wait, an apartment therapy article just used "Adultify Your Home" in the title and I really hate that so maybe I've changed my mind.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:31 AM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:31 AM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
So far I've resisted the urge to start day drinking
i myself have decided to Stand In Solidarity with millennials
by going to brunch
posted by halation at 11:34 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
i myself have decided to Stand In Solidarity with millennials
by going to brunch
posted by halation at 11:34 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm a big fan of never growing up or losing a love of play. Lots of traditional working class and professional class jobs are make-work that doesn't actually need to be done. Most traditional family relationships are oppressive, wasteful, and worth avoiding. I'm delighted that people slightly younger than me are even more likely to say, "fuck this shit" than my peers. If not having to live like my grandparents requires the price of economic uncertainty and the breakdown of the social contract, I'll take it in a heartbeat. I'd rather be slowly eaten by rats than live my grandmother's life, and she was a smart and capable person with significant resources. (I still hope there are other options, of course.)
But, what's that have to do with comic books and movies?
I wish more superhero films - and more pop-culture media in general - were capable of being silly without being stupid. I hate nearly every comic book film I've seen. (Well, Black Panther was enjoyable. American Splendor and V for Vendetta were watchable. That's about all I can think of that I wouldn't pay to avoid having to watch again, even on an airplane.) It's not because they're childish. It's because their writers always lack a basic understanding of how humans behave, grasp fundamental physics less well than a typical spider monkey, and have no sense of history, scale, or context. They're too dumb to be fun, despite, rather than because of, their youthful enthusiasm. Let's be kids. But, let's be smart, outward-looking kids who know something about how the world works. One can do both, and doing both is a lot more fun.
I don't mind that dumb movies exist, since people like them. I do mind that so many less-dumb movies never get made, because studios know they'll always profit from comic-book nostalgia sales no matter how terrible the films are.
Also, Space Opera's on my stack. Looking forward to reading it.
posted by eotvos at 11:40 AM on January 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
But, what's that have to do with comic books and movies?
I wish more superhero films - and more pop-culture media in general - were capable of being silly without being stupid. I hate nearly every comic book film I've seen. (Well, Black Panther was enjoyable. American Splendor and V for Vendetta were watchable. That's about all I can think of that I wouldn't pay to avoid having to watch again, even on an airplane.) It's not because they're childish. It's because their writers always lack a basic understanding of how humans behave, grasp fundamental physics less well than a typical spider monkey, and have no sense of history, scale, or context. They're too dumb to be fun, despite, rather than because of, their youthful enthusiasm. Let's be kids. But, let's be smart, outward-looking kids who know something about how the world works. One can do both, and doing both is a lot more fun.
I don't mind that dumb movies exist, since people like them. I do mind that so many less-dumb movies never get made, because studios know they'll always profit from comic-book nostalgia sales no matter how terrible the films are.
Also, Space Opera's on my stack. Looking forward to reading it.
posted by eotvos at 11:40 AM on January 27, 2019 [9 favorites]
The people who use this phrase most often seem to be the most inept at actually following through on the business of being an adult, thus their talk about "adulting" is almost always insincere.
Seem is the key word here I think, though. Like, I've known people who live the word and draw power from it, and given that it seems like a common usage I think that that population will only increase. I don't want to fall into a trap of confusing language that connotes immaturity in personal language or attitude with actual immaturity, incompetence, or untrustworthiness - things that are often wholly unconnected to linguistic foibles except when on a therapist's couch.
A flip side of this whole discussion is when kids are forced to grow up fast or take responsibility that is generally outside their purview. Is a child who has to take care of a sick parent being forced to adult? Being adulted? Or are they acting like an adult?
posted by Going To Maine at 11:40 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Seem is the key word here I think, though. Like, I've known people who live the word and draw power from it, and given that it seems like a common usage I think that that population will only increase. I don't want to fall into a trap of confusing language that connotes immaturity in personal language or attitude with actual immaturity, incompetence, or untrustworthiness - things that are often wholly unconnected to linguistic foibles except when on a therapist's couch.
A flip side of this whole discussion is when kids are forced to grow up fast or take responsibility that is generally outside their purview. Is a child who has to take care of a sick parent being forced to adult? Being adulted? Or are they acting like an adult?
posted by Going To Maine at 11:40 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
The other thing that seems undervalued here is the notion of adulthood as a way to alienate your "true self" from miserable responsibilities. That is, we assume that the self is expressed through actions, and there are some actions we want to stash away in the box of boring garbage.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:43 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:43 AM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Because some bullshit one word phrase is supposed to sum up the entirety of an idea, which has always stood to me as the stupidest idea alive, because most things in life are deep and nuanced. Like the fake sincerity of loving their jobs, we also have fake sincerity about concepts like "adulting."
...your problem with the word "adulting" is that it's a single word that refers to a complex concept? Do you hate every word in the English language that isn't a concrete noun? You must be constantly furious.
posted by IjonTichy at 11:48 AM on January 27, 2019 [36 favorites]
...your problem with the word "adulting" is that it's a single word that refers to a complex concept? Do you hate every word in the English language that isn't a concrete noun? You must be constantly furious.
posted by IjonTichy at 11:48 AM on January 27, 2019 [36 favorites]
So far I've resisted the urge to start day drinking
The worst part of high school was those hangovers at the dinner table.
posted by thelonius at 11:57 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
The worst part of high school was those hangovers at the dinner table.
posted by thelonius at 11:57 AM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
You get one life on this rock. Why in the hell would you give up something you love just because you got old enough to really appreciate it?
Similar sentiments, 200 years ago:
My heart leaps up when I behold
A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began;
So is it now I am a man;
So be it when I shall grow old,
Or let me die!
The Child is father of the Man;
And I could wish my days to be
Bound each to each by natural piety.
William Wordsworth, 1802
posted by doggod at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
Similar sentiments, 200 years ago:
My heart leaps up when I behold
A rainbow in the sky:
So was it when my life began;
So is it now I am a man;
So be it when I shall grow old,
Or let me die!
The Child is father of the Man;
And I could wish my days to be
Bound each to each by natural piety.
William Wordsworth, 1802
posted by doggod at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2019 [11 favorites]
I suspect that a lot of millennials would consider the "growing up" game if "grind for an uncaring company for 50 years" were actually part of the package on offer. 50 years of tedious, soul-sucking work for a faceless corporation isn't great, but it's a hell of a lot better than 50 years of 6-12 month contract jobs with 2-15 month gaps between them, and a sporadic amount of gig pickup work during the gaps.
It all depends on how much the contracts pay. If you're, say, a software developer in today's market, often the couple of months of funemployment between gigs are a bonus, rather than a hardship (and they can be a few months because there's no huge urgency to stay continually sending out invoices). Though that's a factor of being able to write code being overvalued today compared to, say, being able to write copy/draw illustrations/&c.
posted by acb at 12:02 PM on January 27, 2019
It all depends on how much the contracts pay. If you're, say, a software developer in today's market, often the couple of months of funemployment between gigs are a bonus, rather than a hardship (and they can be a few months because there's no huge urgency to stay continually sending out invoices). Though that's a factor of being able to write code being overvalued today compared to, say, being able to write copy/draw illustrations/&c.
posted by acb at 12:02 PM on January 27, 2019
One of the weird things about getting old is how people a generation younger than you think everything was just invented. They express amazement that a film from 10 years ago had good CGI, or point out that "even in 2005" there would have been computer backups, so another movie has a plot hole in it.
posted by thelonius at 12:04 PM on January 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 12:04 PM on January 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
Never mind adulting; I haven't even figured out humanning.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:06 PM on January 27, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:06 PM on January 27, 2019 [15 favorites]
Eh, childhood is overrated.
posted by rue72 at 12:23 PM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by rue72 at 12:23 PM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
I don't know that it's overrated, so much as that youth is wasted on the young. The best time to experience youthfulness is after you're old enough to appreciate it!
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:54 PM on January 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:54 PM on January 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm an old. I grew up in a time when figuring out how to make a life in the World that *wasn't* insane was regarded as a life long effort. And one of the few things worth doing. Lots of ways to do that and lots of ways to partially do that while waiting/working out better ways to do bigger life things.
posted by aleph at 1:00 PM on January 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by aleph at 1:00 PM on January 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
there is nothing less adult than taking as a first principal that you are pretending to be one.
I've just looked at this as a generational owning of the impostor syndrome that I've assumed was pretty much universal to self-aware adults when it came to handling things like, say, parenting, serious professional work, home renovation, or trying to avoid getting divorced.
I mean, I've had a smart, seemingly totally competent *80 year old* tell me that sometimes he feels like he's just bluffing, and doesn't feel like a "real grown up". Someone who had raised five kids successfully, held an editorial job at a major US newspaper, and is a beloved elder at their church, too.
I think the real test of being an adult is not how you feel, but what happens when there are Serious Things To Do (take a bleeding child to the emergency room, intervene in an elderly parent's alcohol problem, stop a broken pipe from flooding your house) and there is NO ONE THERE TO DO THEM BUT YOU. It's less about how you feel than how you act.
So even though "adulting" as term gets on my nerves, I'm happy to see millennials owning the fact that that often comes with a great deal of flop-sweat-soaked faking it until you maybe kind of make it.
Gen-Xers hate that noone bothers too much about them
Any real Gen-Xer (myself included) looks at all of these discussions, rolls their eyes, and hisses,"Whatever".
posted by ryanshepard at 1:06 PM on January 27, 2019 [51 favorites]
I've just looked at this as a generational owning of the impostor syndrome that I've assumed was pretty much universal to self-aware adults when it came to handling things like, say, parenting, serious professional work, home renovation, or trying to avoid getting divorced.
I mean, I've had a smart, seemingly totally competent *80 year old* tell me that sometimes he feels like he's just bluffing, and doesn't feel like a "real grown up". Someone who had raised five kids successfully, held an editorial job at a major US newspaper, and is a beloved elder at their church, too.
I think the real test of being an adult is not how you feel, but what happens when there are Serious Things To Do (take a bleeding child to the emergency room, intervene in an elderly parent's alcohol problem, stop a broken pipe from flooding your house) and there is NO ONE THERE TO DO THEM BUT YOU. It's less about how you feel than how you act.
So even though "adulting" as term gets on my nerves, I'm happy to see millennials owning the fact that that often comes with a great deal of flop-sweat-soaked faking it until you maybe kind of make it.
Gen-Xers hate that noone bothers too much about them
Any real Gen-Xer (myself included) looks at all of these discussions, rolls their eyes, and hisses,"Whatever".
posted by ryanshepard at 1:06 PM on January 27, 2019 [51 favorites]
Just one question: why are we giving any credence to a bigot who openly consorts with fascists? Because that's what Maher is, and I think it's worthwhile to remind people of that.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:16 PM on January 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:16 PM on January 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
"Adulthood has always been a trick played on the whole of humanity. Convincing us to give up magic & beauty & fun for their own sake in exchange for our labor & loyalty to whatever boss is going around"
Hear, hear. Remember, plenty of adults go to Disneyland on their own recognizance. Also, Bill Maher has never had any fun in his entire life so what does he know. He was born an 80-year-old crank.
I think what it boils down to though is that ...think of it as the Santa Claus divide. Between thinking Santa Claus is real vs. knowing he's not. Going from the person who has the magic created for them to the person who has to do all the work and labor to create the magic. Being the person who does all the labor, period. Being the person who has to eat shit just to stay alive and eat and have a home instead of the innocent that was taken care of.
Do whatever you can to keep whatever bit of you wasn't killed by adulthood alive, man. Go to theme parks, read your comic books, read teenage novels, whatever works to keep some part of you alive.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:39 PM on January 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
Hear, hear. Remember, plenty of adults go to Disneyland on their own recognizance. Also, Bill Maher has never had any fun in his entire life so what does he know. He was born an 80-year-old crank.
I think what it boils down to though is that ...think of it as the Santa Claus divide. Between thinking Santa Claus is real vs. knowing he's not. Going from the person who has the magic created for them to the person who has to do all the work and labor to create the magic. Being the person who does all the labor, period. Being the person who has to eat shit just to stay alive and eat and have a home instead of the innocent that was taken care of.
Do whatever you can to keep whatever bit of you wasn't killed by adulthood alive, man. Go to theme parks, read your comic books, read teenage novels, whatever works to keep some part of you alive.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:39 PM on January 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
jenfullmoon: I think that could be one of Lifetime's better movies. (Or maybe it already is.)
posted by aleph at 1:46 PM on January 27, 2019
posted by aleph at 1:46 PM on January 27, 2019
A trick played on someone who didn’t realize she’d need a visa to visit Russia.
posted by Ideefixe at 2:40 PM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 2:40 PM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
The renaissance for comics as an adult entertainment medium came from 20-something white men pumping hundreds of dollars per month into the hobby. Many of our current cinema versions are derived from work that was published and became "bestsellers" ...
... in the 1980s.
Honestly though, the generational wank is starting to turn into ageism gatekeeping, and I'm just not down for that.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:22 PM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
... in the 1980s.
Honestly though, the generational wank is starting to turn into ageism gatekeeping, and I'm just not down for that.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:22 PM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
This Gen Xer is an adult, with many hobbies ripped straight from Victorian ladies' mags. (Ask me about my needlepoint!) AND I watch Jessica Jones AND use terms like "adulting" as a catch-all for the tedious stuff (laundry, meal prep) that must nonetheless be done to attempt to keep life running on some sort of hopefully smooth trajectory.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some day drinking to do. (Also, fuck Bill Maher.)
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 3:28 PM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some day drinking to do. (Also, fuck Bill Maher.)
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 3:28 PM on January 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
See here's the thing. When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s it was incredibly common for media to depict older adults as not understanding the terminology of youth. It wasn't criticizing the kids, it was good naturedly pointing out that the elders were out of touch. Behind the times. Fuddy-duddies.
And now we have a bunch of older people from that era criticizing younger generations for their use of language. The absolute inability to look in a mirror and engage in some self-reflection would be hilarious. Except for the willingness to agree with a Nazi as long as it means they can criticize women and millenials.
posted by happyroach at 3:43 PM on January 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
And now we have a bunch of older people from that era criticizing younger generations for their use of language. The absolute inability to look in a mirror and engage in some self-reflection would be hilarious. Except for the willingness to agree with a Nazi as long as it means they can criticize women and millenials.
posted by happyroach at 3:43 PM on January 27, 2019 [8 favorites]
Just one question: why are we giving any credence to a bigot who openly consorts with fascists? Because that's what Maher is, and I think it's worthwhile to remind people of that.
This isn't happening. People are commenting on an event in popular culture in which a popular author responded to, as you say, a bigot who consorts with fashists. As far as I can tell, literally no one in this thread has evinced any sympathy for Maher's position or Maher as a person. (Heck, has anyone even linked to Maher's actual remarks? As far as I can tell we're mostly responding to a secondhand source because Maher is so disliked around here.
Further, Maher's grousing about millennial tastes has been getting treated in more or less complete isolation from these other views, which is something that seems mostly fine because grousing able what media young(er) folks consume is a pasttime that crosses more or less all political lines. It seems like it should be possible to complain about the general phenomenon of the older besmirching the younger without getting dragged into an entirely unrelated political fight.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:57 PM on January 27, 2019
This isn't happening. People are commenting on an event in popular culture in which a popular author responded to, as you say, a bigot who consorts with fashists. As far as I can tell, literally no one in this thread has evinced any sympathy for Maher's position or Maher as a person. (Heck, has anyone even linked to Maher's actual remarks? As far as I can tell we're mostly responding to a secondhand source because Maher is so disliked around here.
Further, Maher's grousing about millennial tastes has been getting treated in more or less complete isolation from these other views, which is something that seems mostly fine because grousing able what media young(er) folks consume is a pasttime that crosses more or less all political lines. It seems like it should be possible to complain about the general phenomenon of the older besmirching the younger without getting dragged into an entirely unrelated political fight.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:57 PM on January 27, 2019
A trick played on someone who didn’t realize she’d need a visa to visit Russia.
LOL I was super curious about this so I googled...and that was in 2009. TWO THOUSAND AND NINE, my dude. That is a long-ass time to hold a weird grudge against a stranger who apparently doesn't (or didn't, an ENTIRE DECADE AGO) travel internationally as well and ably and perfectly as you.
These are the kinds of things adults spend their time on? No wonder nobody wants to be one anymore.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:31 PM on January 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
LOL I was super curious about this so I googled...and that was in 2009. TWO THOUSAND AND NINE, my dude. That is a long-ass time to hold a weird grudge against a stranger who apparently doesn't (or didn't, an ENTIRE DECADE AGO) travel internationally as well and ably and perfectly as you.
These are the kinds of things adults spend their time on? No wonder nobody wants to be one anymore.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:31 PM on January 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
See here's the thing. When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s it was incredibly common for media to depict older adults as not understanding the terminology of youth.
s long as it means they can criticize women and millenials.
millennials are older adults.
the youth used to laugh at the old, and I imagine they still do, but the youth are not present in this conversation. this is a bunch of 35-plus year olds resenting the elderly for having more money and not retiring yet. millennials are all getting to be a decade-plus out of their/our younger years, even at the younger end of the cohort, and they/we know it. when it suits their/our rhetorical postures, we know it. but only then. millennials have no idea what's going on in youth culture, for the most part.
and dated internet slang from five to ten years ago that refuses to go away is not incomprehensible youth lingo, sorry. people who say "oh noes" out loud are as likely to be forty as twenty and are pretty hard to take either way.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:39 PM on January 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
s long as it means they can criticize women and millenials.
millennials are older adults.
the youth used to laugh at the old, and I imagine they still do, but the youth are not present in this conversation. this is a bunch of 35-plus year olds resenting the elderly for having more money and not retiring yet. millennials are all getting to be a decade-plus out of their/our younger years, even at the younger end of the cohort, and they/we know it. when it suits their/our rhetorical postures, we know it. but only then. millennials have no idea what's going on in youth culture, for the most part.
and dated internet slang from five to ten years ago that refuses to go away is not incomprehensible youth lingo, sorry. people who say "oh noes" out loud are as likely to be forty as twenty and are pretty hard to take either way.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:39 PM on January 27, 2019 [10 favorites]
People are commenting on an event in popular culture in which a popular author responded to, as you say, a bigot who consorts with fashists.
Which is the problem. I get the logic behind the response, and I think Valente made good points - but at the same time, she treated as legitimate someone who should be exiled from the conversation entirely. That's why I think it's important to remind people of what, exactly, Bill Maher is - because when we don't, people forget that he's someone who should not be allowed into decent conversation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:50 PM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
Which is the problem. I get the logic behind the response, and I think Valente made good points - but at the same time, she treated as legitimate someone who should be exiled from the conversation entirely. That's why I think it's important to remind people of what, exactly, Bill Maher is - because when we don't, people forget that he's someone who should not be allowed into decent conversation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:50 PM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
millennials have no idea what's going on in youth culture
Well, except for the ones with kids...
posted by Going To Maine at 5:17 PM on January 27, 2019
Well, except for the ones with kids...
posted by Going To Maine at 5:17 PM on January 27, 2019
That's why I think it's important to remind people of what, exactly, Bill Maher is
That seems like a good argument for flagging this thread or complaining to Cat Valente, I guess.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:24 PM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
That seems like a good argument for flagging this thread or complaining to Cat Valente, I guess.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:24 PM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
O beans. You've got to do whatever works best for you to make the metafilter you want. But I question the assumption that anyone remains on MetaFilter who would state that they find Bill Maher unproblematic.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:44 PM on January 27, 2019
posted by Going To Maine at 5:44 PM on January 27, 2019
Well, except for the ones with kids...
except for them? them least of all!
but even without children, can't put the new wine of youth culture in old millennial bottles, for the wine runneth out and the bottles perish. so it is said.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:50 PM on January 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
this is a bunch of 35-plus year olds
This is an odd way to describe a group of people between the ages of 19 & 37 (ie alive and under 18 in 2000).
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:41 PM on January 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is an odd way to describe a group of people between the ages of 19 & 37 (ie alive and under 18 in 2000).
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:41 PM on January 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
I interact with a group of teens on a regular basis. If I said "oh noes" or "feels", slang not uncommon among my peers, unironically in front of them they'd slaughter me. And I'm 29, a young millenial!
Anyway Valente is one of my favorite authors ever and I love comics, even the "ones for kids".
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:46 PM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Anyway Valente is one of my favorite authors ever and I love comics, even the "ones for kids".
posted by wellifyouinsist at 8:46 PM on January 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
As much as I enjoy his show, Maher is increasingly hard to apologize for. This current axe is ignorant and insulting, and I guess less damning than many of his other problematic choices of late, but it's personal, damn it. This is a great, thoughtful take down of something that's almost not worth arguing. The man is simply wrong.
The reason my generation still plays in ball pits & reads comic books & plays dress up is that contemporary society has made most of the good parts of adult life financially unreachable: home, family, travel, even theater is $500 a ticket
plus...why apologize?
posted by es_de_bah at 10:10 PM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
The reason my generation still plays in ball pits & reads comic books & plays dress up is that contemporary society has made most of the good parts of adult life financially unreachable: home, family, travel, even theater is $500 a ticket
plus...why apologize?
posted by es_de_bah at 10:10 PM on January 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I see theater all the time for tens of dollars a ticket, I know that much.
posted by Kwine at 2:28 AM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Kwine at 2:28 AM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
I lucked out of not being a boomer on a technicality--I'm a few months too old. Still, I wonder when people will recognize that agism and generationism have all the same pitfalls as sexism and racism and, for that matter, astrology.
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:28 AM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 7:28 AM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
Do you know why millennials “refuse to grow up”? Because we finally figured out that the whole idea is bullshit designed to suppress human joy enough to keep them grinding for an uncaring company for 50 years in unhappy marriages until death is a mercy.I phoned my mother up to read this to her because I knew it would bring her (too old to be a Boomer) nearly as much amusement as it brought me. She heard it in the first `youthquake'. We spent a while googling for short contemporaneous quotations but the densest summary of the 1960s counterculture critique is in a history crib site (schmoop.com):
Either economic stress isn't needed to explain this kind of cultural dislocation, or the Boomers in their youth were experiencing economic stress.
- America's democratic government was corrupt—filled with dishonest, self-seeking politicians and corporate-serving lobbyists.
- Churches were less spiritual oases than repositories of self-righteousness and social complacency.
- Schools had long abandoned the more noble purposes of education. Instead, they merely churned out the technicians and middle managers needed by the corporate order.
- And marriage had become little more than a loveless prison, demanded by social convention but wholly incompatible with the more expansive human potential for love—and sex.
posted by clew at 12:46 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Either economic stress isn't needed to explain this kind of cultural dislocation, or the Boomers in their youth were experiencing economic stress.
I think rapid economic change of any kind, and the cultural stress it creates, will do it - there are a lot of parallels, for example, between the countercultures of late 19th and early 20th c. Europe and the worldwide countercultures of the 60s (see, for example, Jan Marsh's book Back to the Land: The Pastoral Impulse in Victorian England, 18801914.)
There are actually quite a few direct through-lines between the two (e.g. the so-called "nature boys" of 1940s California). We may possibly be on the cusp of another moment where intolerable economic and cultural stress creates a mass cultural inflection point.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:18 PM on January 28, 2019
I think rapid economic change of any kind, and the cultural stress it creates, will do it - there are a lot of parallels, for example, between the countercultures of late 19th and early 20th c. Europe and the worldwide countercultures of the 60s (see, for example, Jan Marsh's book Back to the Land: The Pastoral Impulse in Victorian England, 18801914.)
There are actually quite a few direct through-lines between the two (e.g. the so-called "nature boys" of 1940s California). We may possibly be on the cusp of another moment where intolerable economic and cultural stress creates a mass cultural inflection point.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:18 PM on January 28, 2019
Or the null hypothesis is that young people are generally sure that they can do better than all surviving previous generations. Or the null hypothesis is that the dissatisfied are more trenchant than the satisfied.
posted by clew at 5:59 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 5:59 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
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