DIY Divorce
February 14, 2019 1:10 PM Subscribe
“Lawyer up!” each future divorcée is exhorted, by those who’ve been there. The call to arms is a directive, not a suggestion. But what if the future divorcée—like me, like so many—cannot afford a lawyer? (SL The Atlantic)
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble
I did mine myself, also in NY, in 2014. Some sort of women's attorney organization provided forms to fill in and checklists of what to submit. We didn't have to go to court for anything; there were papers to file that just said we agreed on custody and support.
In some ways I screwed myself over with this... with a lawyer, I might not have had to buy my ex out of the house, and I might've gotten some child support out of him. But then again, maybe I would've taken those hits anyway PLUS paid tons of money in lawyer's fees.
posted by metasarah at 1:54 PM on February 14, 2019
In some ways I screwed myself over with this... with a lawyer, I might not have had to buy my ex out of the house, and I might've gotten some child support out of him. But then again, maybe I would've taken those hits anyway PLUS paid tons of money in lawyer's fees.
posted by metasarah at 1:54 PM on February 14, 2019
Another story that ends with me thinking, "Yet again the woman did all the work..." To barely any reward. She pays her husband's medical bills, she pays all the filing fees, she doesn't even ask for a reasonable amount of child support, she deals with so many health issues that he is completely unsympathetic to, and I bet he still complains to his friends how she screwed him in the divorce.
I wish she could have afforded a $30k lawyer because he deserved way more of a screwing than he got.
posted by possibilityleft at 2:23 PM on February 14, 2019 [52 favorites]
I wish she could have afforded a $30k lawyer because he deserved way more of a screwing than he got.
posted by possibilityleft at 2:23 PM on February 14, 2019 [52 favorites]
I wonder how many divorcing couples have enough resources to fight over, that it's worth lawyering up. Even those who own houses might not have enough assets to pay the lawyers for the fight. Just figuring out how to walk away without being sucked into that person's future chaos, might be a much better outcome than the alternative.
posted by elizilla at 2:47 PM on February 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by elizilla at 2:47 PM on February 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
I wonder how many divorcing couples have enough resources to fight over, that it's worth lawyering up. Even those who own houses might not have enough assets to pay the lawyers for the fight.
The thing is, I would say most divorcing couples have enough theoretical assets to fight over, that they don't think about at the time they are divorcing - at least for one partner. Retirement, maintenance, taxes..all sorts of things you might not think to put in by yourself.
I borrowed from my family to pay for my lawyer and it was money well spent. If you can't, you can't, but honestly, I feel like she doesn't even know now what she might have missed. OK, child support is settled: what about medical bills? Who pays for college?
posted by corb at 2:53 PM on February 14, 2019 [18 favorites]
The thing is, I would say most divorcing couples have enough theoretical assets to fight over, that they don't think about at the time they are divorcing - at least for one partner. Retirement, maintenance, taxes..all sorts of things you might not think to put in by yourself.
I borrowed from my family to pay for my lawyer and it was money well spent. If you can't, you can't, but honestly, I feel like she doesn't even know now what she might have missed. OK, child support is settled: what about medical bills? Who pays for college?
posted by corb at 2:53 PM on February 14, 2019 [18 favorites]
I got divorced without a lawyer. We had nothing, no kids, just a bunch of student debt. Long story short, I got stuck with all the debt and it took me years to pay off. On the other hand, a lawyer probably would have cost more than her half of the debt. It was only 1990s Ontario student debt, so nothing like kids are stuck with nowadays. In the long run, money well spent as I am a hell of a lot happier.
posted by fimbulvetr at 3:15 PM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 3:15 PM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
OK, child support is settled: what about medical bills? Who pays for college?
It didn't sound like he would have been paying for anything even if the court had ordered him to. I've seen that play out several times in those close to me. There are a lot of people who, after a divorce, just move back into their parents basement, and avoid having over-the-table assets or paychecks for decades, possibly for life. Maybe they're depressed, maybe they're just jerks, but if your estranged spouse is living the "judgement proof" lifestyle, you're better off cutting them loose before you have to pay their taxes, or get your assets garnished by their creditors.
posted by elizilla at 3:16 PM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
It didn't sound like he would have been paying for anything even if the court had ordered him to. I've seen that play out several times in those close to me. There are a lot of people who, after a divorce, just move back into their parents basement, and avoid having over-the-table assets or paychecks for decades, possibly for life. Maybe they're depressed, maybe they're just jerks, but if your estranged spouse is living the "judgement proof" lifestyle, you're better off cutting them loose before you have to pay their taxes, or get your assets garnished by their creditors.
posted by elizilla at 3:16 PM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
Yeah, a divorce with no kids, no assets and limited debt, probably can be done without an attorney with limited problems. But once custody, assets and significant debt are involved, a good attorney is probably worth the investment. Every family lawyer I know will work with people about payment. Heck, one of my friends is paying hers with dog grooming and pet sitting.
My divorce was 30 years ago, and I still regret not hiring an attorney, and we didn’t have kids. But I ended up paying a vast amount of his debts.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 3:32 PM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
My divorce was 30 years ago, and I still regret not hiring an attorney, and we didn’t have kids. But I ended up paying a vast amount of his debts.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 3:32 PM on February 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
My divorce was extremely acrimonious but there was no aspect of the proceedings that wasn't made worse by the presence of lawyers on both sides. And while mediation was theoretically available, there's no such thing as a lawyer who will represent you through it in Cambridge, MA because, and I am not making this up, the court won't refer you to mediation unless one party waives counsel.
The adversarial system is trash, but it's especially miserable from criminal and family law. There is a better way to do this.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:32 PM on February 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
The adversarial system is trash, but it's especially miserable from criminal and family law. There is a better way to do this.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:32 PM on February 14, 2019 [6 favorites]
My ex and I spent less than $400 total on lawyers for our divorce. She had hers write up a basically boilerplate agreement (sell the house, shared physical and legal custody, I kept the cats) and my lawyer reviewed it, made a few comments and sent it back to hers. They sent it to the court and a month or so later, I got the divorce documents back from the court. That was it.
posted by octothorpe at 4:40 PM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 4:40 PM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
I did it without a lawyer in Ontario, Canada. I could have gotten money but I didn't want any. Some days I think that was a bad move, most days I'm fine with it. I should have gotten a lawyer, though, because while I happened to have the time, the brains, and the cash to take care of it, what I didn't have was perspective.
Let us not speak of the emotional labour component in my case just now, I had a stressful day.
posted by wellred at 4:41 PM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Let us not speak of the emotional labour component in my case just now, I had a stressful day.
posted by wellred at 4:41 PM on February 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
I wonder how much a lawyer would have charged to tell her she was very likely not liable for any of his thousands of dollars of unpaid taxes.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:17 PM on February 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:17 PM on February 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
We agreed on the bulk of our settlement, but we still each hired an attorney to make sure the agreement was copesetic and would be acceptable to a judge. We didn't want anything to come back to bite us - or, more importantly, our kids - at some later date. The costs weren't cheap, but agreeing on things ahead of time kept them down to a manageable level. The hardest part? Finding lawyers who understood that we didn't want to fight - we just wanted documents that clearly and legally set out our intentions. I got help from http://thelilactree.org/ in Evanston (if you live in the Chicago area they can be very helpful).
posted by debgpi at 6:51 PM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by debgpi at 6:51 PM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think my divorce - no kids, no debt - cost me about $600 in Virginia. I never met with my lawyer except for like 3 minutes on the final court date, before I stood before the judge and declared the marriage over. They just told me what to do, then filed the paperwork that I filled out. It's all they do, so it was a well-oiled machine. It was awful at the time, mostly because it forced me to get in touch with my ex to sign everything too. But I feel really lucky after reading this - that sounds terrible.
posted by gemmy at 8:03 PM on February 14, 2019
posted by gemmy at 8:03 PM on February 14, 2019
Dear Ask MetaFilter: If I can't afford to "lawyer up," can I replace that part of divorce proceedings with "delete Facebook" and/or "hit the gym"?
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 8:48 PM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 8:48 PM on February 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
Kansas makes this kind of divorce easy and cheap (feature, not a bug). My soon-to-be ex-wife and I couldn't possibly afford lawyers. She discovered that this other option existed. We had never made a child, which helped the process tremendously. I was barely employed, and all of her paycheck went to keeping the roof over her head, so no spousal support was considered. We agreed cheerfully about splitting our worldly goods. It was the very model of an amicable divorce, for which I remain grateful.
We sat together before the local judge, who walked us through the process. We gave the appropriate answers to his questions. It was pretty quick and professional.
I don't remember what it cost to file the paperwork, and I can't find my receipt at the moment. We may have both ponied up $50 or $60, something like that.
posted by bryon at 11:18 PM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
We sat together before the local judge, who walked us through the process. We gave the appropriate answers to his questions. It was pretty quick and professional.
I don't remember what it cost to file the paperwork, and I can't find my receipt at the moment. We may have both ponied up $50 or $60, something like that.
posted by bryon at 11:18 PM on February 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
Wow I am so glad I never married. Just out of curiosity, are the court fees for getting married typically in the $600 or so range?
posted by axiom at 12:22 AM on February 15, 2019
posted by axiom at 12:22 AM on February 15, 2019
I've talked about this here before because it happened to me.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 6:07 AM on February 15, 2019
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 6:07 AM on February 15, 2019
I only know three divorce stories (probably selected for by the people who have successful contested divorces just not talking about). There is the octothorpe/gemmy experience, there is the 70-80% of the couple's assets get converted to attorney fees experience where if they could have agreed to any split at the start they both would have had more money at the end, and there is the one party (usually the man but not always) lives as a hermit to spite the agreement with his ex experience. I had a work acquaintance (if you could call it that considering the circumstance) with a guy who literately only worked three days a month so he didn't have to send his ex-spouse any money, twenty years after getting divorced. It was weird as hell as a new employee to have this guy who everyone knew show up for three days and then disappear for a month. "Oh, ya. That's Foo. Been working here for a decade. He's shirking spousal support."
posted by Mitheral at 6:52 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 6:52 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
For my first divorce I was poor enough to qualify for a legal aid lawyer, but all that amounted to was someone who drew up and filed papers based on a form I submitted, and whom I met in person for the first and last time the day of the hearing. I pursued a couple of child support actions pro se for a couple years after that, but as the old saying goes, you can't squeeze blood from a turnip that has absconded from the country to an address unknown.
For my second divorce we (I) decided to go with a mediator (Bo Diddley's niece--have I told this story before?), and honestly that was $800 we probably could have even saved. Although we had assets, it was about as amicable as divorces can get and we didn't have any real disagreements about how to divide things. I guess that's one of the things about having somewhat substantial assets--the balance may have been off by a couple thousand one direction or the other but if that's less than one percent of the pie why drag things out over it? And while I did do almost all the work for the process, I did use this as an opportunity to prioritize my wants in subtle ways--when I wrote up my proposed division of assets, I claimed the "good" cat, the "easy" dog, the more-reliable car, etc.
After our last mediation session our mediator told me she could hook me up with a different attorney to draw up the paperwork, but that I was a smart, educated person with an excellent command of legalese and could draw up my own perfectly cromulant documents with what guidance the county courthouse provides.
Now, I will admit that even as a smart, education person the actual filing procedure was confusing and it took me a while to sort it out, given my preference for figuring things out on my own and my aversion to picking up the phone and calling people for help. But once I started showing up at the actual courthouse for a couple rounds of dropping off paperwork, the people there were very helpful in shepherding me to the right places, getting the right copies made, etc. There's definitely room for improvement in making the filing process easier to negotiate for the non-lawyer, though.
Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that someone could have read up on divorce and followed divorce forums online and not be aware of the pro se option. (tangentially related, I was a very active participant in the old Usenet divorce group at the time of my first divorce and made some of my best and longest-lasting internet friends through there--I've met IRL and am still in touch with more than a dozen of them through Facebook, 20 years later)
posted by drlith at 7:01 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
For my second divorce we (I) decided to go with a mediator (Bo Diddley's niece--have I told this story before?), and honestly that was $800 we probably could have even saved. Although we had assets, it was about as amicable as divorces can get and we didn't have any real disagreements about how to divide things. I guess that's one of the things about having somewhat substantial assets--the balance may have been off by a couple thousand one direction or the other but if that's less than one percent of the pie why drag things out over it? And while I did do almost all the work for the process, I did use this as an opportunity to prioritize my wants in subtle ways--when I wrote up my proposed division of assets, I claimed the "good" cat, the "easy" dog, the more-reliable car, etc.
After our last mediation session our mediator told me she could hook me up with a different attorney to draw up the paperwork, but that I was a smart, educated person with an excellent command of legalese and could draw up my own perfectly cromulant documents with what guidance the county courthouse provides.
Now, I will admit that even as a smart, education person the actual filing procedure was confusing and it took me a while to sort it out, given my preference for figuring things out on my own and my aversion to picking up the phone and calling people for help. But once I started showing up at the actual courthouse for a couple rounds of dropping off paperwork, the people there were very helpful in shepherding me to the right places, getting the right copies made, etc. There's definitely room for improvement in making the filing process easier to negotiate for the non-lawyer, though.
Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that someone could have read up on divorce and followed divorce forums online and not be aware of the pro se option. (tangentially related, I was a very active participant in the old Usenet divorce group at the time of my first divorce and made some of my best and longest-lasting internet friends through there--I've met IRL and am still in touch with more than a dozen of them through Facebook, 20 years later)
posted by drlith at 7:01 AM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
The "lawyer up" advice/directive has always seemed to me to be a relic of the past, or at least something for people with way more money than I'll ever have. My wife and I, between us, own a seven year old car, a TV, a bunch of books, and around $10,000 in student loan debts. The idea of hiring a lawyer to try and protect my "assets" is absurd bordering on offensive. I have no assets worthy of the name and almost certainly never will.
The only possible way it could apply is if we had a custody fight. And then I can't see how I could possibly afford a lawyer unless they'll work on the expectation of being paid back at a few bucks a month for several years.
I've **SEEN** the sort of stuff that involves lawyers. I used to work at a law firm and when I started there had been a divorce they were working on for a year or so. It employed one paralegal more or less full time, and continued through the entire five years of my employment at the firm and was nowhere near ending when I left.
Every few days new stuff would be involved, there were several private investigators doing miscellaneous things, a truly astounding number of photos of various possessions needed cataloging, and the paralegal would fire off a motion or some other form to the opposing council (or, I'm sure, the opposing council's paralegal) and receive one in exchange. I'm not sure if the couple had even been to court by the time I left, but they did seem to take great joy in all the motions and filings and inventories and so forth. My firm was representing the wife, she came in once a month for a consultation with one of our lawyers that cost her about $650 every visit.
Lawyers for divorces are something for people who have material wealth to worry about. For most Americans it's as pointless and alien as the Dow Jones Average, and yet as with the Dow, something people seem to think we need to be told about frequently.
posted by sotonohito at 7:10 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
The only possible way it could apply is if we had a custody fight. And then I can't see how I could possibly afford a lawyer unless they'll work on the expectation of being paid back at a few bucks a month for several years.
I've **SEEN** the sort of stuff that involves lawyers. I used to work at a law firm and when I started there had been a divorce they were working on for a year or so. It employed one paralegal more or less full time, and continued through the entire five years of my employment at the firm and was nowhere near ending when I left.
Every few days new stuff would be involved, there were several private investigators doing miscellaneous things, a truly astounding number of photos of various possessions needed cataloging, and the paralegal would fire off a motion or some other form to the opposing council (or, I'm sure, the opposing council's paralegal) and receive one in exchange. I'm not sure if the couple had even been to court by the time I left, but they did seem to take great joy in all the motions and filings and inventories and so forth. My firm was representing the wife, she came in once a month for a consultation with one of our lawyers that cost her about $650 every visit.
Lawyers for divorces are something for people who have material wealth to worry about. For most Americans it's as pointless and alien as the Dow Jones Average, and yet as with the Dow, something people seem to think we need to be told about frequently.
posted by sotonohito at 7:10 AM on February 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
Just out of curiosity, are the court fees for getting married typically in the $600 or so range?
axiom
I'm not sure what you meany "court fees". We got married at the NYC Marriage Bureau downtown and it was $60 total ($35 for the marriage license, $25 for the ceremony).
posted by Sangermaine at 10:09 AM on February 15, 2019
axiom
I'm not sure what you meany "court fees". We got married at the NYC Marriage Bureau downtown and it was $60 total ($35 for the marriage license, $25 for the ceremony).
posted by Sangermaine at 10:09 AM on February 15, 2019
Lawyers for divorces are something for people who have material wealth to worry about.
Or kids. Or material debts. Or an asshole ex under a restraining order. Or quite a lot of scenarios, really.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:22 AM on February 15, 2019 [9 favorites]
Or kids. Or material debts. Or an asshole ex under a restraining order. Or quite a lot of scenarios, really.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:22 AM on February 15, 2019 [9 favorites]
Actually, if you don't have 'material wealth', then things like not getting stuck with your ex's debt can become really fucking important, so no lawyers aren't just for rich people.
posted by tavella at 10:22 AM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by tavella at 10:22 AM on February 15, 2019 [6 favorites]
Just out of curiosity, are the court fees for getting married typically in the $600 or so range?
Better yet, what are the fees for a pre-nup? e.g. we keep the assets / debts we went into the marriage with, everything else is split down the middle (or some variation of "I cut you choose" fair division).
posted by batter_my_heart at 10:29 AM on February 15, 2019
Better yet, what are the fees for a pre-nup? e.g. we keep the assets / debts we went into the marriage with, everything else is split down the middle (or some variation of "I cut you choose" fair division).
posted by batter_my_heart at 10:29 AM on February 15, 2019
People who refuse to cooperate can drag things out for years. A court can order things all day long but they are not much help with things that require active participation. Do you have the stomach to hire cops to evict your former spouse? And if you do that, which of your children, other family, friends, is going to decide you are the villain? What is that worth to you?
You could end up paying endless property taxes and insurance and water bills, to keep liens from being filed on a house you don't live in. Worrying because you can't get access to fix the roof, fighting condemnation proceedings. You can pour your own funds into it for years, while the value of the house just gets lower and lower due to its condition, and you are kept emotionally entangled with the ex, worrying about them dying in this decaying house.
I know several couples where something like this happened. Lawyers can only do so much. Find a way to let it go and get your name off it.
posted by elizilla at 12:12 PM on February 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
You could end up paying endless property taxes and insurance and water bills, to keep liens from being filed on a house you don't live in. Worrying because you can't get access to fix the roof, fighting condemnation proceedings. You can pour your own funds into it for years, while the value of the house just gets lower and lower due to its condition, and you are kept emotionally entangled with the ex, worrying about them dying in this decaying house.
I know several couples where something like this happened. Lawyers can only do so much. Find a way to let it go and get your name off it.
posted by elizilla at 12:12 PM on February 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also, it’s highly ill-advised to be the only one in the room without a lawyer.
posted by gottabefunky at 2:44 PM on February 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 2:44 PM on February 15, 2019 [4 favorites]
Following up on finding it difficult to believe someone could fail to run across the pro se option until they had been separated and stalled out in the divorce process for multiple years: I think this is illustrative of the unfortunate divide that exists between the people who produce the bulk of our media content--whether it's articles in The Atlantic or TV shows that depict divorce or whatever--and the majority of the population. I mean--New York and all that, I kind of get it--but still, the kind of income and assets you're talking about to be paying $5,000 in rent, and the kind of closed FB groups you're likely to participate in as a Potomac MD native/Harvard graduate/Harlem gentrifier ex-wife of a software developer/startup founder may indeed not include many people who would consider NOT using a lawyer in a divorce. But the "lawyer up"/adversarial message about divorce is what gets perpetrated in the media because those are the kinds of people who shape media voices.
posted by drlith at 5:24 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by drlith at 5:24 PM on February 15, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm having coffee today with a woman in her seventies who just left her abusive marriage of 30+ years. The house she and her soon to be wasband own is likely worth more than $500K. Given the history of abuse, he's likely to try to take it all. I will be gently suggesting to her that she lawyer up now if she hasn't already.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:55 AM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Sheydem-tants at 8:55 AM on February 16, 2019 [2 favorites]
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