Australia's war on feral cats
April 28, 2019 11:55 PM Subscribe
Feral felines are driving the country’s native species to extinction. Now a massive culling is underway to preserve what’s left of the wild. [CW: painful animal death, hunting]
Using technology ranging from bows and arrows to robots that spit poison at a passing cat so that it will be ingested when the cat grooms itself, Australian conservationists are trying to preserve endangered species by exterminating their main predator, the feral, formerly domestic cat. It's a messy business.
Using technology ranging from bows and arrows to robots that spit poison at a passing cat so that it will be ingested when the cat grooms itself, Australian conservationists are trying to preserve endangered species by exterminating their main predator, the feral, formerly domestic cat. It's a messy business.
That article seems calculated to horrify and trigger cat lovers though. A dispassionate presentation of the facts might be convincing, but walking us through the gleeful bowhunters taking headshots and stalking wounded cats and decapitating kittens with their Crocodile Dundee knives get the predictable viral outrage.
posted by nicwolff at 5:45 AM on April 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 5:45 AM on April 29, 2019 [26 favorites]
It's arguable that cats are vermin in Australia, and should be eradicated for the ecological greater good. (And indoor-only cats are not acceptable, as sooner or later, some will escape and wreak havoc before the hunter-killer drones can get them.)
Perhaps they could also get CSIRO to start a programme to domesticate a native species as replacement housepets, along the lines of the Siberian domestic fox programme?
posted by acb at 5:52 AM on April 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Perhaps they could also get CSIRO to start a programme to domesticate a native species as replacement housepets, along the lines of the Siberian domestic fox programme?
posted by acb at 5:52 AM on April 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
The men stopped the truck and shined their spotlight over the field. It was a fox.
Half a mile farther down the road...
This bit seemed weird, because I'd expect them to shoot the fox as well.
I'm not sure that the bowhunter seems gleeful, just practical. Cats, rabbits, foxes, camels, wild pig, idc what it is, if it endangers natives, kill it.
Alas, I can't even convince my family to keep their cat indoors :(
posted by AnhydrousLove at 5:57 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Half a mile farther down the road...
This bit seemed weird, because I'd expect them to shoot the fox as well.
I'm not sure that the bowhunter seems gleeful, just practical. Cats, rabbits, foxes, camels, wild pig, idc what it is, if it endangers natives, kill it.
Alas, I can't even convince my family to keep their cat indoors :(
posted by AnhydrousLove at 5:57 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Not directly applicable, but an interesting article on shifting beliefs about wildlife management in the U.S.
Bottom line: people who deal directly with the effects of wildlife overpopulation are much more likely to favor lethal solutions. People who’s exposure to wildlife is solely through Disney cartoons believe humans and animals should live in harmony. Disney is winning.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:03 AM on April 29, 2019 [20 favorites]
Bottom line: people who deal directly with the effects of wildlife overpopulation are much more likely to favor lethal solutions. People who’s exposure to wildlife is solely through Disney cartoons believe humans and animals should live in harmony. Disney is winning.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:03 AM on April 29, 2019 [20 favorites]
I love cats, but I don't think anything humans do to them in this article is as cruel as what they do to their victims. They kill for pleasure, even when they are not hungry. That they are beautiful, graceful, intelligent, fascinating, and sometimes hugely comforting to humans is also true.
Perhaps related to this article is the story of her parents' cats and their feral descendants in Doris Lessing's extraordinary and wholly unsentimental book on cats (which I don't have to hand to copy from).
posted by alloneword at 6:16 AM on April 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
Perhaps related to this article is the story of her parents' cats and their feral descendants in Doris Lessing's extraordinary and wholly unsentimental book on cats (which I don't have to hand to copy from).
posted by alloneword at 6:16 AM on April 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
Outside the situation of a beloved pet, a cat is just an animal. Invasive species, especially ones that are particularly destructive, should be extirpated.
posted by timdiggerm at 6:18 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by timdiggerm at 6:18 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I mean, that's one interpretation of the article. Another is that white males who dominate wildlife management positions tend to favor the idea that animals exist solely to serve humans and other cultures have different takes on animals purpose and value in the world. The idea that having empathy for beings that clearly feel and express pain and emotional traits similar to humans is "anthropomorphizing" animals is a degrading way to talk about having respect for non-human life and it's been effective at demeaning the idea of respecting non-human beings for a long time.
posted by xarnop at 6:19 AM on April 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 6:19 AM on April 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
At some point somebody's going to notice late stage capitalists are an invasive species.
posted by otherchaz at 6:29 AM on April 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by otherchaz at 6:29 AM on April 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
I found the article very interesting and had expected it to be posted here sooner or later.
That article seems calculated to horrify and trigger cat lovers though.
There were definitely details that were written in more outrage-inducing ways, though the overall article was not written for the outrage. It's an odd mix.
I love cats as much as anyone, but there isn't a feel good option here. Either you massively reduce the number of feral cats in Australia, or you will continue to have vulnerable species going extinct. I don't hunt, but I have considered taking it up just for invasive species. While acknowledging that invasive vs native can be a controversial term with complicated nuances, there are some introduced species that cause great harm and should have their numbers reduced.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
That article seems calculated to horrify and trigger cat lovers though.
There were definitely details that were written in more outrage-inducing ways, though the overall article was not written for the outrage. It's an odd mix.
I love cats as much as anyone, but there isn't a feel good option here. Either you massively reduce the number of feral cats in Australia, or you will continue to have vulnerable species going extinct. I don't hunt, but I have considered taking it up just for invasive species. While acknowledging that invasive vs native can be a controversial term with complicated nuances, there are some introduced species that cause great harm and should have their numbers reduced.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
Just how come nobody ever posts articles like this.
posted by ThreeCatsBob at 6:42 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ThreeCatsBob at 6:42 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Also what is it with the New York Times these days? Even in an article about cats, they can't resist providing a platform for virulent racists like Morrissey and Brigitte Bardot.
posted by Umami Dearest at 6:54 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by Umami Dearest at 6:54 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
Fixing biodiversity issues is going to take a lot more than exterminating one invasive species. There are examples where this has backfired spectacularly.
What is going to happen to Australia's mouse problem when all the cats are gone?
I'm not against culling of cats in general. But it seems that people tend to focus on cats, and there are many other invasive species that are an issue. Another big issues is non-native plants used in landscaping.
Really, the biggest Invasive species in the world is humans.
posted by ThreeCatsBob at 6:59 AM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
What is going to happen to Australia's mouse problem when all the cats are gone?
I'm not against culling of cats in general. But it seems that people tend to focus on cats, and there are many other invasive species that are an issue. Another big issues is non-native plants used in landscaping.
Really, the biggest Invasive species in the world is humans.
posted by ThreeCatsBob at 6:59 AM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
What is going to happen to Australia's mouse problem when all the cats are gone?
1080 kills mice too, I think. And we have native carnivores that will probably be as effective as cats, if they're allowed to live. But as long as cats are endemic here, native wildlife will be unable to recover.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:05 AM on April 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
1080 kills mice too, I think. And we have native carnivores that will probably be as effective as cats, if they're allowed to live. But as long as cats are endemic here, native wildlife will be unable to recover.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:05 AM on April 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
My concern is, couldn’t 1080 poison native wildlife as well as cats and mice? I get that in Australia cats and mice have to go. I think hunting is the safer solution when we consider other animals, but maybe it’s too slow. Cats are elusive. They reproduce very rapidly. Same goes for mice.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:45 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 7:45 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
> What is going to happen to Australia's mouse problem when all the cats are gone?
I wouldn't assume the cats can be fully eradicated. Australia is very large.
posted by ardgedee at 7:51 AM on April 29, 2019
I wouldn't assume the cats can be fully eradicated. Australia is very large.
posted by ardgedee at 7:51 AM on April 29, 2019
If there is one thing we are good at as a species, it is killing off other species, however elusive. Cats are not that small an animal, so I wouldn't say that his would be impossible.
However, as long as they get resupplied by domestic cats escaping and then finding an enormous niche to sustain them, then I can't see it working.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:15 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
However, as long as they get resupplied by domestic cats escaping and then finding an enormous niche to sustain them, then I can't see it working.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:15 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think you're partially right about the replacement from domestic cats, or even just the feral cat populations in cities you can't sausage-bomb, but I imagine that this is meant to go hand-in-hand with continued targeting of cats by farmers, rangers and hunters. That won't stop in the foreseeable future, and might help prevent them making their way from Orange to deep country.
Hunting alone won't do the job though, you can't stun a herd of cats with helicopter spotlights and wipe them out hundreds at a time.
Anyway I do think we need to have stricter laws around pet ownership - I'd like to see strong taboos against having cats and dogs without cause, and at very least laws requiring them to be kept indoors & mandatory spaying.
If that makes the animal unhappy, maybe that's a reason to ban them outright, if cats can't be happy under the conditions we need to keep them under, we shouldn't be keeping them.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:23 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Hunting alone won't do the job though, you can't stun a herd of cats with helicopter spotlights and wipe them out hundreds at a time.
Anyway I do think we need to have stricter laws around pet ownership - I'd like to see strong taboos against having cats and dogs without cause, and at very least laws requiring them to be kept indoors & mandatory spaying.
If that makes the animal unhappy, maybe that's a reason to ban them outright, if cats can't be happy under the conditions we need to keep them under, we shouldn't be keeping them.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:23 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
We've long had this line in the sand of which animals are fine to kill for food (and who are legally, not included in animal cruelty laws) like pigs, cows, chickens, and which ones we can't (cats, dogs). Its so arbitrary and entirely subjective based on culture and personal feelings (europeans eat horse, some people love their pet rats, seen as simply vermin by so many). If this the viable option to restore balance to what humans have unbalanced, then I'm okay with it, especially if the fur/meat is used in some way.
posted by CPAGirl at 8:26 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by CPAGirl at 8:26 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I understand that the world isn't a Disney movie, but I also don't think it's inappropriate to feel emotional and disturbed by this, and it's upsetting how many people are arguing that it's illogical and childish to feel that way. It's not even like they're killing the cats painlessly, as would be done in a shelter setting. I also don't understand the "but cats are cruel to the animals they hunt" argument, as if they somehow deserve to be punished and that makes the cull tolerable. My other major concern is that some companion animals could be inadvertently killed in this cull, and I find that absolutely unacceptable.
posted by Tess at 8:28 AM on April 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by Tess at 8:28 AM on April 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
My concern is, couldn’t 1080 poison native wildlife as well as cats and mice?
In the article the author mentions that 1080 is derived from a toxic plant that the native animals have a resistance to. Only invasive species are susceptible to the poison.
posted by Badgermann at 8:31 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
In the article the author mentions that 1080 is derived from a toxic plant that the native animals have a resistance to. Only invasive species are susceptible to the poison.
posted by Badgermann at 8:31 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
Trying to look a little deeper into 1080, I saw it suggested that it's not perfect, but we have been using it here since the 50s.
Not all native Australian animals have immunity, but this is fairly targeted - they're not using it everywhere, and they're using it with meat baits designed to appeal to cats. If any native is collateral, it will be on a far smaller scale than they would be from our inaction.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but the cats going to die at some point, and if it was because we introduced some sort of cat predator, it wouldn't be less painful than at the hands of hunters. The cats have to die though, because we are all the custodians of this land now, and that means preserving the fauna that make our ecosystems work.
I'm sympathetic to a mass infertility program, but I also wonder if we can afford another 10 years of dead bilbies before the cats die out.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:40 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Not all native Australian animals have immunity, but this is fairly targeted - they're not using it everywhere, and they're using it with meat baits designed to appeal to cats. If any native is collateral, it will be on a far smaller scale than they would be from our inaction.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but the cats going to die at some point, and if it was because we introduced some sort of cat predator, it wouldn't be less painful than at the hands of hunters. The cats have to die though, because we are all the custodians of this land now, and that means preserving the fauna that make our ecosystems work.
I'm sympathetic to a mass infertility program, but I also wonder if we can afford another 10 years of dead bilbies before the cats die out.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:40 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
My other major concern is that some companion animals could be inadvertently killed in this cull, and I find that absolutely unacceptable.</I
That lighthouse keeper was just so attached to his cat Tibbles...
posted by Space Coyote at 8:41 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
That lighthouse keeper was just so attached to his cat Tibbles...
posted by Space Coyote at 8:41 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I also don't understand the "but cats are cruel to the animals they hunt" argument, as if they somehow deserve to be punished and that makes the cull tolerable.
I think when people say this, they mostly mean that killing a single cat will prevent it from killing hundreds of other animals in the particularly cruel way that cats kill their prey, so there is a net reduction in the amount of cruelty.
My other major concern is that some companion animals could be inadvertently killed in this cull, and I find that absolutely unacceptable.
Most of the culling is probably happening in places where properly cared-for pet cats are unlikely to be found. But if a pet cat is killed because it's in a place where it is a threat to native wildlife, the blame belongs 100% to its careless owners.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 8:46 AM on April 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
I think when people say this, they mostly mean that killing a single cat will prevent it from killing hundreds of other animals in the particularly cruel way that cats kill their prey, so there is a net reduction in the amount of cruelty.
My other major concern is that some companion animals could be inadvertently killed in this cull, and I find that absolutely unacceptable.
Most of the culling is probably happening in places where properly cared-for pet cats are unlikely to be found. But if a pet cat is killed because it's in a place where it is a threat to native wildlife, the blame belongs 100% to its careless owners.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 8:46 AM on April 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
I've never heard of Inverse, but this article from them appears to have more information about the sausages and precautions.
I will also add that this is being done in northern WA right? There's not a whole lot of companion cats in country WA, I'm going to guess.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:52 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
I will also add that this is being done in northern WA right? There's not a whole lot of companion cats in country WA, I'm going to guess.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:52 AM on April 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
also don't think it's inappropriate to feel emotional and disturbed by this, and it's upsetting how many people are arguing that it's illogical and childish to feel that way
I mean, look: I love cats. I have 3, one of whom right now is in the midst of renal failure, basically walking dead in front of me as I give him subcutaneous fluids and medications and try to make sure his final days are good ones -- and that's fucking gutting me. I don't think it's childish to care about animals.
However: basically everything that's crossed my feeds about this has been really uninformed on the part of cat lovers. It has all come across as people having self-identified themselves as being on Team Cat, and therefore there's no possible way that this could be necessary in any way. It's all boycotts and "why don't they just ..." type arguments that have no bearing in reality.
Fundamentally, this is mankind's fuckup, but our choices now are we do the hard thing and fix it, or we side with the cats and doom all sorts of species to extinction.
posted by tocts at 8:52 AM on April 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
I mean, look: I love cats. I have 3, one of whom right now is in the midst of renal failure, basically walking dead in front of me as I give him subcutaneous fluids and medications and try to make sure his final days are good ones -- and that's fucking gutting me. I don't think it's childish to care about animals.
However: basically everything that's crossed my feeds about this has been really uninformed on the part of cat lovers. It has all come across as people having self-identified themselves as being on Team Cat, and therefore there's no possible way that this could be necessary in any way. It's all boycotts and "why don't they just ..." type arguments that have no bearing in reality.
Fundamentally, this is mankind's fuckup, but our choices now are we do the hard thing and fix it, or we side with the cats and doom all sorts of species to extinction.
posted by tocts at 8:52 AM on April 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
Yeah, no. It’s not uninformed. I recognize cats are destructive beasties. I still don’t think having people randomly shooting them and cutting the heads off their babies is a good thing. That is a perfectly reasonable position.
posted by corb at 8:59 AM on April 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:59 AM on April 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
For a really chilling take on this problem, there is Doris Lessing's account the cats that went feral round her childhood farm. But I don't have the book to hand: it is with my cat-loving sister.
posted by alloneword at 9:01 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by alloneword at 9:01 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I also don't think it's inappropriate to feel emotional and disturbed by this
It's totally appropriate to feel awful about people shooting cats. I would not sign up to be a cat killer. But we need to shift that emotion to the animals cats are driving, or have already driven, to extinction.
Feral feast: cats kill hundreds of Australian animals:
posted by pracowity at 9:08 AM on April 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
It's totally appropriate to feel awful about people shooting cats. I would not sign up to be a cat killer. But we need to shift that emotion to the animals cats are driving, or have already driven, to extinction.
Feral feast: cats kill hundreds of Australian animals:
Feral cats are estimated to eat tens of millions of native animals each night in Australia. But what kinds of wildlife are they eating? In research published today in the Journal of Biogeography, my colleagues and I show that cats kill hundreds of different kinds of animals, including at least 16 species considered globally threatened.I suppose some pets may be killed (if owners don't keep them inside), but that doesn't mean Australia should stop the cull and let the extinctions proceed. People in culling areas need to be warned to keep their cats inside. And in some cases, after saying goodbye to all cats, they may need to kill the wabbits.
posted by pracowity at 9:08 AM on April 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
I understand that the world isn't a Disney movie, but I also don't think it's inappropriate to feel emotional and disturbed by this, and it's upsetting how many people are arguing that it's illogical and childish to feel that way. It's not even like they're killing the cats painlessly, as would be done in a shelter setting. I also don't understand the "but cats are cruel to the animals they hunt" argument, as if they somehow deserve to be punished and that makes the cull tolerable.
Cat lover here: and this is what rubs me the wrong way about the article and other writing on this issue. "Fuck your feelings! Reals not feels, cat laydeez! We need tough men to provide tough solutions!" The cat-killers are guess who? White men.
It's not just about cats - it's all kinds of feeeeeeeeeelings (har har) in me about how so many white men love to step up with "we white men are so tough, logical and hard-headed, we're not soft and sentimental like women and not-white men! Fuck your feelings!"
And any call for banning pet cats is probably going to result in torches and pitchforks. I mean, what's with the pearl-clutching about "what if one just possibly escapes? I know it's a remote chance but..." I have four indoor-only cats, have had the oldest one for eight years now, and NOT ONE has escaped ONCE except for my tubby Ragdoll mix doing a door-dash and getting about ten steps down the front walkway before I caught her. My youngest cat who was born into a feral colony and tamed LOVES the great indoors and has never tried to escape.
Maybe ferals - and only ferals - need to be culled humanely. Not by wanna-be Ted Nugents shooting crossbows or whatever. But banning tame, pet indoor or "allowed outside in enclosed catios" is CATastrophizing. It would be like the War on Drugs.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:10 AM on April 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
Cat lover here: and this is what rubs me the wrong way about the article and other writing on this issue. "Fuck your feelings! Reals not feels, cat laydeez! We need tough men to provide tough solutions!" The cat-killers are guess who? White men.
It's not just about cats - it's all kinds of feeeeeeeeeelings (har har) in me about how so many white men love to step up with "we white men are so tough, logical and hard-headed, we're not soft and sentimental like women and not-white men! Fuck your feelings!"
And any call for banning pet cats is probably going to result in torches and pitchforks. I mean, what's with the pearl-clutching about "what if one just possibly escapes? I know it's a remote chance but..." I have four indoor-only cats, have had the oldest one for eight years now, and NOT ONE has escaped ONCE except for my tubby Ragdoll mix doing a door-dash and getting about ten steps down the front walkway before I caught her. My youngest cat who was born into a feral colony and tamed LOVES the great indoors and has never tried to escape.
Maybe ferals - and only ferals - need to be culled humanely. Not by wanna-be Ted Nugents shooting crossbows or whatever. But banning tame, pet indoor or "allowed outside in enclosed catios" is CATastrophizing. It would be like the War on Drugs.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:10 AM on April 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
The problem of the Bambi effect comes to mind, wherein people care about saving cute animals (see: Pandas) but not so much other creatures which are just of deserving of protection. Cats are surely one of the most charismatic animals.
posted by timdiggerm at 9:12 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by timdiggerm at 9:12 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Doris Lessing's account the cats that went feral round her childhood farm
Here's a secondhand account of it: Cats, Doris Lessing, and Me:
Here's a secondhand account of it: Cats, Doris Lessing, and Me:
The most intractable is the one posed by the many cats about the place, which are forever getting pregnant and dropping one litter after another. It is Doris’s mother who regularly drowns the kittens from each new litter in order to keep the cat population down to a manageable size. But when Doris is about fourteen years old, her mother falls into a depression and stops getting rid of the kittens. In no time, there are forty cats on the farm. Now everyone is depressed. One weekend, the mother takes a trip, and it is decided in her absence that the cats must go: now. Together, Doris and her father herd all but a single favorite into a spare room and, one by one, the father shoots all the cats.posted by pracowity at 9:14 AM on April 29, 2019
Maybe ferals - and only ferals - need to be culled humanely.
They need to be culled effectively. We're way, way past the tipping point. There's no need for unnecessary cruelty, but putting an overt emphasis on "humanely" leads to a much slower cull, and many other native species being cruelly killed by cats.
With regard to "only ferals," there's no such thing as an outside cat. If people want to keep cats inside, that seems okay enough. But if domestic cats get out, they're just as dangerous as ferals.
The reason why people are saying "fuck your feelings" is because this situation's gotten quite bad because of people's feelings. Also, because it's a bunch of back-seat driving by non-Australians like you and me who have no idea how bad it is.
posted by explosion at 9:21 AM on April 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
They need to be culled effectively. We're way, way past the tipping point. There's no need for unnecessary cruelty, but putting an overt emphasis on "humanely" leads to a much slower cull, and many other native species being cruelly killed by cats.
With regard to "only ferals," there's no such thing as an outside cat. If people want to keep cats inside, that seems okay enough. But if domestic cats get out, they're just as dangerous as ferals.
The reason why people are saying "fuck your feelings" is because this situation's gotten quite bad because of people's feelings. Also, because it's a bunch of back-seat driving by non-Australians like you and me who have no idea how bad it is.
posted by explosion at 9:21 AM on April 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
And if the people killing the cats are Indigenous Australians trying to maintain their connection to country and meet their responsibilities to country by working in wildlife and land management industries, are they still toughbro white men just trying to own loving cat owners?
I mean sure, a lot of them will be young white men working on farms and ranches, that's true, if you want to get behind seizing that land and returning it to the control of its owners, so they can kill the cats, great, let's do that.
I also love cats. Cat family. Hate death, hate suffering. Don't approve of the death penalty. But demanding that we kill 6 million cats humanely is demanding the death of a hundred, if not hundreds, of million native animals along the way.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 9:27 AM on April 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
I mean sure, a lot of them will be young white men working on farms and ranches, that's true, if you want to get behind seizing that land and returning it to the control of its owners, so they can kill the cats, great, let's do that.
I also love cats. Cat family. Hate death, hate suffering. Don't approve of the death penalty. But demanding that we kill 6 million cats humanely is demanding the death of a hundred, if not hundreds, of million native animals along the way.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 9:27 AM on April 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
I'm definitely in favour of doing what is necessary to preserve the native species. Culling the cats seems necessary here. It should be done as humanely as possible of course.
It's one of the few things that I agree with Jonathan Franzen about.
posted by pseudotsuga at 10:05 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's one of the few things that I agree with Jonathan Franzen about.
posted by pseudotsuga at 10:05 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
pracowity, the bit I remember most vividly wasn't the slaughter in the bedroom but her encounter with a cat who had been one of her favourites as a delicate domestic creature but then took off for the bush. She found it in a tree three years later, twice the size and almost unrecognisable. It had become implacably hostile to humans, too. It had, in fact, become a wild animal.
posted by alloneword at 10:09 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by alloneword at 10:09 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Bottom line: people who deal directly with the effects of wildlife overpopulation are much more likely to favor lethal solutions. People who’s exposure to wildlife is solely through Disney cartoons believe humans and animals should live in harmony. Disney is winning.
This doesn't feel like a fair summary to me. Here's what the article says about the two groups:
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:11 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
This doesn't feel like a fair summary to me. Here's what the article says about the two groups:
Researchers found large declines over time in several states for the group of people defined as traditionalists, or those who believe animals should be used for purposes that benefit humans, like hunting and medical research.Opposing lethal techniques for native, troublesome to industry, and endangered species and supporting lethal methods of removing non-native, troublesome to the ecosystem, and plentiful species is an extremely consistent position based in opposition to the traditionalist view. I don't think we can reduce opposition to "animals are only important insofar as they have a use to humans" to "disney is winning". That's an element, but it's not the only part of the change in views.
Mutualists, on the other hand, believe that animals deserve the same rights as humans. They view animals as companions and part of their social networks, and project human traits onto animals.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:11 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Shooting animals accurately and from a distance is surely one of the most humane ways possible to kill them. There is no warning and no suffering. I don't see that catching them, confining the, transporting them and then gassing them is any more humane.
posted by alloneword at 10:13 AM on April 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by alloneword at 10:13 AM on April 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
Here's what the article says about the two groups
That's a different dichotomy. The direct/Disney dichotomy was also discussed in the article, if not in those words. The "Disney" crowd are North American and European folks like Morrissey getting riled up, along with some urban Australians who feel close to their cats, but never see the wildlife.
"Disney is winning" is the notion that wildlife is beautiful and harmonious, and that our happy cats couldn't possibly be murderous cretins.
posted by explosion at 10:25 AM on April 29, 2019
That's a different dichotomy. The direct/Disney dichotomy was also discussed in the article, if not in those words. The "Disney" crowd are North American and European folks like Morrissey getting riled up, along with some urban Australians who feel close to their cats, but never see the wildlife.
"Disney is winning" is the notion that wildlife is beautiful and harmonious, and that our happy cats couldn't possibly be murderous cretins.
posted by explosion at 10:25 AM on April 29, 2019
There absolutely are indigenous Australians participating in cat culling, in collaboration with wildlife biologists. It sounds like these folks are getting paid, too, which is great. I wish this NY Times piece had mentioned this project and these people. There’s a number of other stories out there about these efforts as well, and a video.
I’m uncomfortable with claims that cat culling is a white-male-imposed idea, especially when one considers that the only reason there are any cats in Australia at all is because white men decided to bring them there. Is it really a better outcome for us, as white people, to permit animals we brought to Australia in the first place to decimate an ecosystem that we stole from Australia’s indigenous people? We should really be letting Indigenous people take the lead here.
posted by faineg at 10:40 AM on April 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
I’m uncomfortable with claims that cat culling is a white-male-imposed idea, especially when one considers that the only reason there are any cats in Australia at all is because white men decided to bring them there. Is it really a better outcome for us, as white people, to permit animals we brought to Australia in the first place to decimate an ecosystem that we stole from Australia’s indigenous people? We should really be letting Indigenous people take the lead here.
posted by faineg at 10:40 AM on April 29, 2019 [15 favorites]
Fully agree with Faineg
Except that a possum thing just landed on my roof with such noise that I thought my upstairs neighbour's wardrobe must have fallen over or some such thing, and when I went outside maintained a cold stare of indignance that I would be perturbed at all, and at least cats are graceful about their roof-jumping, so maybe I take it all back, the possum scares me.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 10:47 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Except that a possum thing just landed on my roof with such noise that I thought my upstairs neighbour's wardrobe must have fallen over or some such thing, and when I went outside maintained a cold stare of indignance that I would be perturbed at all, and at least cats are graceful about their roof-jumping, so maybe I take it all back, the possum scares me.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 10:47 AM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I just want to share a few more links about legendary Indigenous wildlife tracker and cat hunter Christine Ellis, who sounds incredible and who deserves her own big-time NY Times profile piece.
posted by faineg at 11:00 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by faineg at 11:00 AM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
See one of my comments from 2018 for a summary of the Australian government's Threatened Species Strategy. I don't currently have time to dig into progress since then, but it I don't see a third year review listed, and it sounds like government oversight of the strategy is a mess.
posted by zamboni at 12:12 PM on April 29, 2019
posted by zamboni at 12:12 PM on April 29, 2019
Some of the internet reaction to this reminds me of how people react to the attempts to cull feral horses in Wyoming. It's not a fucking pony, it's invasive megafauna that's ruining what little remains of the landscape for the few native animals that remain there.
posted by aspersioncast at 12:27 PM on April 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 12:27 PM on April 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Some of the internet reaction to this reminds me of how people react to the attempts to cull feral horses in Wyoming. It's not a fucking pony, it's invasive megafauna that's ruining what little remains of the landscape for the few native animals that remain there.
Some people do not believe that intelligent creatures should be killed unless there is a necessity to do so, and do not see 'preserving the landscape' as a necessity worth the sacrificing of intelligent life. Some people also see a difference between actively killing creatures and allowing them to be killed by inaction. It would be great if we didn't mock people with other opinions here.
posted by corb at 12:46 PM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Some people do not believe that intelligent creatures should be killed unless there is a necessity to do so, and do not see 'preserving the landscape' as a necessity worth the sacrificing of intelligent life. Some people also see a difference between actively killing creatures and allowing them to be killed by inaction. It would be great if we didn't mock people with other opinions here.
posted by corb at 12:46 PM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Some people also see a difference between actively killing creatures and allowing them to be killed by inaction.
That's the trolley problem, but with animals, rather than humans.
Choosing to not kill the horses is choosing for other animals to die. A decision to not act is still a decision. Yeah, some people believe "inaction" is excusable, that it doesn't hold with it any sort of culpability.
On the other hand, history is full of "good people" doing nothing while atrocities were perpetrated.
It's understandable that culls are distasteful, but they're basically humanity's duty at this point, to halt further degradation of the environments for native species.
posted by explosion at 12:54 PM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
That's the trolley problem, but with animals, rather than humans.
Choosing to not kill the horses is choosing for other animals to die. A decision to not act is still a decision. Yeah, some people believe "inaction" is excusable, that it doesn't hold with it any sort of culpability.
On the other hand, history is full of "good people" doing nothing while atrocities were perpetrated.
It's understandable that culls are distasteful, but they're basically humanity's duty at this point, to halt further degradation of the environments for native species.
posted by explosion at 12:54 PM on April 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
Humans introduced cats to Australia, so allowing them to exterminate native species is not happening because of the inaction of humans, only the inaction of the humans who are currently alive. I don't think goes very far to absolve us if we were to stand by and let it happen now.
Valuing individuals of one species over the entire existence of another species or even whole ecosystems is very shortsighted.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:25 PM on April 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
Valuing individuals of one species over the entire existence of another species or even whole ecosystems is very shortsighted.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:25 PM on April 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
Some people do not believe that horses are intelligent creatures. Some of the birds feral cats kill in droves are just as arguably intelligent creatures as the cats are, and their populations are certainly more fragile. Some people have no problems eating things that are significantly smarter than my cats (e.g. pigs), but are nonetheless horrified by culling programs.
I'm not mocking anyone, I'm drawing a pretty obvious parallel. I do not have the same values as these people, and I fundamentally disagree with the values of someone who privileges the life of a feral introduced animal over the animals that were there before Europeans arrived.
I concede that this is also an irrational position, and there's no closing Pandora's box - the great plains of the US and the west coast of Australia have been forever altered by human activity, particularly the introduction of various human-favored species.
In both, it's really the raising of one particular species of megafauna--cattle--that is causing and has caused the greatest environmental destruction, and frankly anyone who's cool with that, but protests cat culls, is operating from a different enough set of ethics that we are unlikely to see eye-to-eye on much else.
Like cattle, cats (and horses) are particularly destructive of certain things that I care more about than I do about the individual lives of cats or horses, however much I love my cats.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:29 PM on April 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
I'm not mocking anyone, I'm drawing a pretty obvious parallel. I do not have the same values as these people, and I fundamentally disagree with the values of someone who privileges the life of a feral introduced animal over the animals that were there before Europeans arrived.
I concede that this is also an irrational position, and there's no closing Pandora's box - the great plains of the US and the west coast of Australia have been forever altered by human activity, particularly the introduction of various human-favored species.
In both, it's really the raising of one particular species of megafauna--cattle--that is causing and has caused the greatest environmental destruction, and frankly anyone who's cool with that, but protests cat culls, is operating from a different enough set of ethics that we are unlikely to see eye-to-eye on much else.
Like cattle, cats (and horses) are particularly destructive of certain things that I care more about than I do about the individual lives of cats or horses, however much I love my cats.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:29 PM on April 29, 2019 [12 favorites]
From a National Geographic article:
Nationwide, the BLM currently authorizes 8.6 million animal unit monthlys (AUMs) to ranchers to graze livestock on 150 million acres of BLM public lands. [...] In comparison, there are approximately 75,000 wild horses, three times the Appropriate Management Level, effectively utilizing 900,000 AUMs on the 31.2 million acres designated for wild horses.
In other words, cattle use up almost 10x the grazing capacity as horses, and it is the horses that are "three times" overpopulated, implying that the "appropriate" ratio of cattle to horses is more like 30:1.
posted by Pyry at 1:51 PM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Nationwide, the BLM currently authorizes 8.6 million animal unit monthlys (AUMs) to ranchers to graze livestock on 150 million acres of BLM public lands. [...] In comparison, there are approximately 75,000 wild horses, three times the Appropriate Management Level, effectively utilizing 900,000 AUMs on the 31.2 million acres designated for wild horses.
In other words, cattle use up almost 10x the grazing capacity as horses, and it is the horses that are "three times" overpopulated, implying that the "appropriate" ratio of cattle to horses is more like 30:1.
posted by Pyry at 1:51 PM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Forgot to say that I find it pretty heartbreaking to have to kill anything, particularly the animals whose company I often prefer to that of humans. I'm absolutely not trying to dismiss all the reasons someone might find cat culls horrifying, but in this case they're a horrifying necessity to preserve something that to me, on balance, has far greater value.
posted by aspersioncast at 2:03 PM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 2:03 PM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
Another difference between feral cats and feral horses:
Horses gestate for roughly 11 months, and have 1 foal per pregnancy. (Twin foals can happen, but I believe it's incredibly rare for both embryos to end up being brought to term successfully.)
Cats on the other hand apparently gestate for 2 months. The number of kittens seems to be on average 3 to 5, although seems like there is a lot of variation.
So just from a population control perspective, horses just aren't going to have the kind of exponential population growth that cats do.
Also, yes, there may be issues of resource use, but horses aren't actively killing native species. Maybe the ultimate outcome isn't changed that much. I don't know enough to weigh in about this, I'm just saying that feral horses versus feral cats isn't necessarily a great comparison.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:42 PM on April 29, 2019
Horses gestate for roughly 11 months, and have 1 foal per pregnancy. (Twin foals can happen, but I believe it's incredibly rare for both embryos to end up being brought to term successfully.)
Cats on the other hand apparently gestate for 2 months. The number of kittens seems to be on average 3 to 5, although seems like there is a lot of variation.
So just from a population control perspective, horses just aren't going to have the kind of exponential population growth that cats do.
Also, yes, there may be issues of resource use, but horses aren't actively killing native species. Maybe the ultimate outcome isn't changed that much. I don't know enough to weigh in about this, I'm just saying that feral horses versus feral cats isn't necessarily a great comparison.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:42 PM on April 29, 2019
That rate still means the population can double just about every decade.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:52 PM on April 29, 2019
posted by Space Coyote at 4:52 PM on April 29, 2019
They kill for pleasure, even when they are not hungry.
It would be more accurate to say that their hunting instincts do not deactivate when they are not hungry.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:58 PM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
It would be more accurate to say that their hunting instincts do not deactivate when they are not hungry.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:58 PM on April 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
At its core it is all about us. Kill the cats, pet the cats. We are the ones who decide what "wilderness" and "invasive species" are. We are the ones who try to make a moral tale out of evolution, we are the hypocrites who pave over paradise on the one hand and wring our hands about the loss of passenger pigeons on the other. We want to role back the clock and preserve a pre-cat Australia because of aesthetics dressed up as something else. I have no problem with this particular aesthetic preference, much better than romantic dam building or sod busting as far as I am concerned, but still it begins and ends with us and nature doesn't have the capacity to care. So please, do not demonize a species and trot out your closet sadism because you have an excuse, the blood thirstiness that comes over otherwise even keeled people when you lay the moral judgement on top of some poor critter is repulsive.
posted by Pembquist at 9:02 PM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Pembquist at 9:02 PM on April 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
The horses one is interesting, because there were horses (of a sort) natively present until the megafauna extinctions at the end of the Pleistocene (which may have been human-caused). But I suppose there were horse-predators then too. Not sure what exactly, maybe the American cheetah?
posted by timdiggerm at 2:36 AM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by timdiggerm at 2:36 AM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Eat The Cats
Would you eat feral cats, cane toads, or wild horses? These people think you should
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2019
Would you eat feral cats, cane toads, or wild horses? These people think you should
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2019
Just how come nobody ever posts articles like this.
posted by ThreeCatsBob at 6:42 AM
Because we re not interested in deflection and whataboutism
posted by eustatic at 6:13 PM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ThreeCatsBob at 6:42 AM
Because we re not interested in deflection and whataboutism
posted by eustatic at 6:13 PM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
'preserving the landscape' as a necessity worth the sacrificing of intelligent life.
'Preserving the landscape' is the preservation of intelligent life, and intelligent life that fits only in that landscape--and for some species, intelligent life that is, in turn, necessary for preservation of that landscape. See Wolf conservation efforts in the USA.
I wish that ecology, and / or native American studies tailored to local areas, would be required in high schools. There s a lot of illiteracy at a basic level, in settler cultures based on land exploitation. So much of our culture is based on assumptions that you will take from the land, and then move on to the next place to exploit, rather than learning about what works, how it is changing, and how it could be changed so that humans can keep living there in the same Lifeway.
We could be having conversations about what ethical pets would look like, but we re so far from basic comprehension, it all gets muddy real quick.
See the US conversation about 'invasive species.' at this point, it s more than half about xenophobia than it is about ecology, I ve honestly stopped using the term, even though it remains somewhat useful.
posted by eustatic at 6:41 PM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
'Preserving the landscape' is the preservation of intelligent life, and intelligent life that fits only in that landscape--and for some species, intelligent life that is, in turn, necessary for preservation of that landscape. See Wolf conservation efforts in the USA.
I wish that ecology, and / or native American studies tailored to local areas, would be required in high schools. There s a lot of illiteracy at a basic level, in settler cultures based on land exploitation. So much of our culture is based on assumptions that you will take from the land, and then move on to the next place to exploit, rather than learning about what works, how it is changing, and how it could be changed so that humans can keep living there in the same Lifeway.
We could be having conversations about what ethical pets would look like, but we re so far from basic comprehension, it all gets muddy real quick.
See the US conversation about 'invasive species.' at this point, it s more than half about xenophobia than it is about ecology, I ve honestly stopped using the term, even though it remains somewhat useful.
posted by eustatic at 6:41 PM on April 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
horses aren't actively killing native species.
As a matter of fact, they very much are. Especially if you include plants, which they tear up by the roots because horses suck at grazing chapparal, let alone anything more fragile like chamisa/sagebrush patches.
But additionally horses are extremely territorial, large, and quite bellicose, and there isn't much out there anymore to kill them, other than irate ranchers and the elements. So they fight and kill pronghorns and deer and elk and cattle (hence the irate ranchers). I have more than once (ok, only twice) found an unshod horse corpse out in the desert that was clearly shot and left for the coyotes, and I have to say my sympathies were not with the horse.
We could be having conversations about what ethical pets would look like
Now that is an interesting proposal.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:07 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
As a matter of fact, they very much are. Especially if you include plants, which they tear up by the roots because horses suck at grazing chapparal, let alone anything more fragile like chamisa/sagebrush patches.
But additionally horses are extremely territorial, large, and quite bellicose, and there isn't much out there anymore to kill them, other than irate ranchers and the elements. So they fight and kill pronghorns and deer and elk and cattle (hence the irate ranchers). I have more than once (ok, only twice) found an unshod horse corpse out in the desert that was clearly shot and left for the coyotes, and I have to say my sympathies were not with the horse.
We could be having conversations about what ethical pets would look like
Now that is an interesting proposal.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:07 PM on April 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
do not demonize a species and trot out your closet sadism because you have an excuse
Forsooth, no one here is in fact doing that.
Would you eat feral cats, cane toads, or wild horses? These people think you should
No, probably if prepared by an expert who knew how to remove the poisonous bits, and yes.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:14 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
Forsooth, no one here is in fact doing that.
Would you eat feral cats, cane toads, or wild horses? These people think you should
No, probably if prepared by an expert who knew how to remove the poisonous bits, and yes.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:14 PM on April 30, 2019 [2 favorites]
Cats are perfectly "ethical" pets when they are confined indoors and/or to enclosed catios and not allowed to roam, and neutered/spayed so as not to reproduce in vast numbers (which is bad for the cats, too).
It bothers me that there are people who don't seem to draw a distinction between pet and feral cats. MY indoor-only cats are not out killing birds or other wildlife. But thirty or forty years ago, dogs were allowed to roam at will, there were packs of feral dogs (now nonexistent in the United States outside a few impoverished, rural areas), they were allowed to bite people and kill other animals, and were not neutered so they reproduced at will. Remember in Beverly Cleary's "Henry and Ribsy" stories where Henry Huggins just brought home a free-range Ribsy? That would never happen today.
Maybe it would help the cause of cats if they were treated more like dogs.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:15 PM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
It bothers me that there are people who don't seem to draw a distinction between pet and feral cats. MY indoor-only cats are not out killing birds or other wildlife. But thirty or forty years ago, dogs were allowed to roam at will, there were packs of feral dogs (now nonexistent in the United States outside a few impoverished, rural areas), they were allowed to bite people and kill other animals, and were not neutered so they reproduced at will. Remember in Beverly Cleary's "Henry and Ribsy" stories where Henry Huggins just brought home a free-range Ribsy? That would never happen today.
Maybe it would help the cause of cats if they were treated more like dogs.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:15 PM on April 30, 2019 [4 favorites]
Ugh, false equivalence.
There are large clay pits excavated so these animals can shit indoors. Don t shy away from the impacts of these animals by bringing up the other animals.
There are so many animals that humans are cultivating unintentionally, animals that don t have a lot of additional impact, once you assume an urban area exists. What if we could adopt these animals as the pets they already are? Like the different colonies of monk parrots that move into American cities? Like raccoons and possums?
Maybe we could adopt local bobcats and American pumas? Try to save the american Ocelot? Or bring back the American Jaguar? The existence of those cats requires that we care for our landscapes...
posted by eustatic at 5:29 AM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
There are large clay pits excavated so these animals can shit indoors. Don t shy away from the impacts of these animals by bringing up the other animals.
There are so many animals that humans are cultivating unintentionally, animals that don t have a lot of additional impact, once you assume an urban area exists. What if we could adopt these animals as the pets they already are? Like the different colonies of monk parrots that move into American cities? Like raccoons and possums?
Maybe we could adopt local bobcats and American pumas? Try to save the american Ocelot? Or bring back the American Jaguar? The existence of those cats requires that we care for our landscapes...
posted by eustatic at 5:29 AM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Given the reproductive capacity of cats (referenced up-thread, in case you missed it), Rosie M. Banks is hardly "shying away from the impacts of" cats by calling for a societal shift, such that cat owners would take seriously their responsibilities to get their pets spayed/neutered and to keep them at home. Government policy should also imply that cat ownership is to be taken seriously; e.g., a license requirement, as for dogs.
(Full disclosure: I have a cat. He has been neutered and stays indoors.)
posted by virago at 6:28 AM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
(Full disclosure: I have a cat. He has been neutered and stays indoors.)
posted by virago at 6:28 AM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don't know about other places in Australia, but here we have to register our cats, and they have to be collared and tagged.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:58 AM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:58 AM on May 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
a societal shift, such that cat owners would take seriously their responsibilities to get their pets spayed/neutered and to keep them at home
This would be great, but doesn't address the issue that feral cats are already established across Australia.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:27 AM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
This would be great, but doesn't address the issue that feral cats are already established across Australia.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:27 AM on May 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Forsooth, no one here is in fact doing that.
Where exactly is here? Have you ever talked to feral pig hunters? Coyote hunting competitions? Seen any of the threads from the more outre hunters of feral cats? The volume is different but the cadence is the in some of the comments in this thread, I am not saying it is psychopathy but that it is human and eustatic says that "...See the US conversation about 'invasive species.' at this point, it s more than half about xenophobia than it is about ecology..." they are on to the underlying, the othering, the self forgiveness for the itchy trigger finger that has made our own species so spectacularly successful for the time being.
posted by Pembquist at 7:39 AM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Where exactly is here? Have you ever talked to feral pig hunters? Coyote hunting competitions? Seen any of the threads from the more outre hunters of feral cats? The volume is different but the cadence is the in some of the comments in this thread, I am not saying it is psychopathy but that it is human and eustatic says that "...See the US conversation about 'invasive species.' at this point, it s more than half about xenophobia than it is about ecology..." they are on to the underlying, the othering, the self forgiveness for the itchy trigger finger that has made our own species so spectacularly successful for the time being.
posted by Pembquist at 7:39 AM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
>>a societal shift, such that cat owners would take seriously their responsibilities to get their pets spayed/neutered and to keep them at home
>>This would be great, but doesn't address the issue that feral cats are already established across Australia.
Yours is a justifiable criticism. I apologize for having moved away from the premise of the OP and for having shifted the discussion to my U.S. experience.
posted by virago at 8:37 AM on May 1, 2019
>>This would be great, but doesn't address the issue that feral cats are already established across Australia.
Yours is a justifiable criticism. I apologize for having moved away from the premise of the OP and for having shifted the discussion to my U.S. experience.
posted by virago at 8:37 AM on May 1, 2019
Where exactly is here?
This thread on Metafilter. I am aware that the bloodthirsty attitude exists elsewhere, and in fact grew up surrounded by it.
I'm not quite clear on the rest of your point, unless it's that some humans are really into killing animals, which I don't think anyone here would argue against.
Do you disagree with the invasive species/xenophobia comment? I don't think it's cut-and-dry, but there's an argument to be made there.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:32 AM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread on Metafilter. I am aware that the bloodthirsty attitude exists elsewhere, and in fact grew up surrounded by it.
I'm not quite clear on the rest of your point, unless it's that some humans are really into killing animals, which I don't think anyone here would argue against.
Do you disagree with the invasive species/xenophobia comment? I don't think it's cut-and-dry, but there's an argument to be made there.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:32 AM on May 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Do you disagree with the invasive species/xenophobia comment? I don't think it's cut-and-dry, but there's an argument to be made there.
No I don't, I agree with it. On re reading my last comment I can see how it might be a bit incoherent. My point is that the blood thirsty attitude is there bubbling along in most everyone, just submerged or sublimated and that whenever these sort of invasive species cull discussions come up I see evidence of that in what people say, people on metafilter included. I don't mean to judge what I see as just basic to being human what I am whinging about is the cognitive shortcut of othering and the scariness of it when it takes place in people who consider themselves sober and reasonable. In fact I am not even judging that as much as lamenting that that seems to be so basic to people. It is some sort of cognitive bias. I think it is a great comfort to class what you kill as vermin and it probably sounds like hyperbole to say it but I think it is only the heavy lifting of culture that keeps us from doing the same to people, especially considering how much in fact we do do it to people.
I would like to explain more but I don't think I have the skill to get my ideas across, when I try I end up writing "I'm not saying......" a lot. I would just say that this topic while superficially about wildlife management and anthropomorphism provides a lot of insight into human foibles and what might be called errors in thinking and the phenomena of a kind of rationalized sadism the prevalence of which in its most anodyne form I suspect is a little shocking.
posted by Pembquist at 9:46 AM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
No I don't, I agree with it. On re reading my last comment I can see how it might be a bit incoherent. My point is that the blood thirsty attitude is there bubbling along in most everyone, just submerged or sublimated and that whenever these sort of invasive species cull discussions come up I see evidence of that in what people say, people on metafilter included. I don't mean to judge what I see as just basic to being human what I am whinging about is the cognitive shortcut of othering and the scariness of it when it takes place in people who consider themselves sober and reasonable. In fact I am not even judging that as much as lamenting that that seems to be so basic to people. It is some sort of cognitive bias. I think it is a great comfort to class what you kill as vermin and it probably sounds like hyperbole to say it but I think it is only the heavy lifting of culture that keeps us from doing the same to people, especially considering how much in fact we do do it to people.
I would like to explain more but I don't think I have the skill to get my ideas across, when I try I end up writing "I'm not saying......" a lot. I would just say that this topic while superficially about wildlife management and anthropomorphism provides a lot of insight into human foibles and what might be called errors in thinking and the phenomena of a kind of rationalized sadism the prevalence of which in its most anodyne form I suspect is a little shocking.
posted by Pembquist at 9:46 AM on May 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
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