Liberals fail to vet Montreal candidate.
September 19, 2019 7:33 AM   Subscribe

 
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
posted by Fizz at 7:37 AM on September 19 [33 favorites]


@andrewneville
If reporters were brave they would ask Trudeau about the Air India bombing
posted by Space Coyote at 7:38 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


Trying to imagine what would have happened if one of my teachers had showed up dressed like this to a school function at my white-bread, not-progressive U.S. high school in 2001. Not sure if he would have been fired within 10 seconds or 10 minutes, but it wouldn’t have taken 10 hours. He might have even gotten slapped by a nun.
posted by sallybrown at 7:51 AM on September 19 [20 favorites]


I've been listening to conservative talk radio on my commute, and this (and an Arizona wedding-invitation/LGBT-discrimination case (the advocacy group that brought the case was a sponsor)) were basically the only stories this morning. The host was delighted to point out what he called a 'double standard' in which people like Trudeau and Ralph Northam (VA governor, blackface in high school yearbook) keep their jobs while 'we' have to follow Democrats' rules about not being racist and Megyn Kelly loses her NBC job for defending blackface Halloween costumes.
posted by box at 7:51 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]


Oh good. Now the actual honest to god white nationalist party (not that one, the other one) will form a majority. Marvelous.

And just last week Scheer said that if one of his members had done this an apology would suffice. Double standard, eh?
posted by klanawa at 7:55 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]


I was disappointed when Trudeau dropped electoral reform, as it showed he wasn't a progressive. I was disappointed when Trudeau bought a pipeline on my behalf, as it showed he wasn't an environmentalist. I was disappointed by his role in SNC Lavalin, as it showed he wasn't really a feminist or a friend to indigenous people.

But this is the first time Trudeau made me feel sick.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:03 AM on September 19 [40 favorites]


(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
QFT. I was so angry when I saw this news. I usually vote NDP, but the party has been a complete mess this cycle and cannot seem to get their shit together, so I'd been strongly considering voting Liberal this time because I'm on team Anybody But Scheer and the Green candidate in my riding may as well not exist as far as their chances go (the perils of living in a cabinet minister's riding, I guess). But I can't hold my nose for this one.
posted by Fish Sauce at 8:06 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


I don't know Canadian politics at all -- is there someone well placed to take over as Liberal PM if he resigns promptly?
posted by LizardBreath at 8:08 AM on September 19


Urgh.

That is all I can find to say about this:

Urgh.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:08 AM on September 19


The brownface photo is so compelling that it overwhelms the fact that he, as a teacher, has his hand on the chest of a female student or coworker at a work party, "...a young woman who Trudeau described as “a friend.”

Also Not Great.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:09 AM on September 19 [46 favorites]


He did this in 2001? wtf. Who still thought this kind of thing was OK in 2001?
posted by thelonius at 8:09 AM on September 19 [21 favorites]


This has not lowered my opinion of him at all.

That is not meant as a compliment.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:10 AM on September 19 [20 favorites]


@LizardBreath: The Governor General consults the party and they put forward an MP to assume the role. There isn't a clear line of succession. I don't think he'll resign, though.
posted by Fish Sauce at 8:11 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


I would like to think this is maybe the beginning of a reckoning in Canada with the racism & bigotry that hides under our image of being such a polite and kind society. Because it's endemic - CTV yesterday had a headline on their site asking if Canada was ready for a PM with a turban, referring to NDP leader Jagmeet Singh; Scheer has a history of anti-LGBT statements, along with a history of association with white nationalists; Trudeau wore blackface.

But because this is happening in the midst of an election campaign, the conversation is quickly (already) going to focus on what this does for the chances for the various parties to form the next government, rather than us taking a look at the larger context that allows this kind of shit to go on.

Anyways, going to put Jagmeet Singh's response here, because it's more important than anything I might say.
posted by nubs at 8:11 AM on September 19 [55 favorites]


I absolutely think he should resign today and the Liberals just put someone else up and I have no idea what, but oh god this is a huge boon for the conservatives (whether he resigns or not) and I'm just super mad this didn't come out during his leadership campaign. (I really suspect that the timing is not accidental.)

I've never actually voted Lib in a federal election, and this wasn't going to be the first time -- my MP is a "high school friend" of Trudeau's -- my riding is never going Conservative.

This is terrible on so many levels, but I can't say I am THAT shocked by it.
posted by jeather at 8:13 AM on September 19 [7 favorites]


Who still thought this kind of thing was OK in 2001?

The privileged upper classes to which Trudeau most definitely belongs. He's be inculcated with and still has a lot of unexamined racism built into his worldview. He's not grown very far from being a spoiled rich kid. The arrogance of today shows though in the thinking that this was best hidden and forgotten, rather than aired years ago and owned.

I hate that we have to chose between that and white-state ethnonationalsists with a side of climate change denialism.
posted by bonehead at 8:14 AM on September 19 [19 favorites]


Something that has crossed my mind on occasion ever since seeing the film Beetlejuice - if you remove the brownface, is it racist for a white person to sing the Banana Boat song (Day-o)? And today - does the addition of the song make the brownface more egregious?
posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 8:16 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]


I don't know Canadian politics at all -- is there someone well placed to take over as Liberal PM if he resigns promptly?

Her name was Jody Wilson-Raybould but Trudeau fired her for doing the right thing.
posted by Evstar at 8:17 AM on September 19 [30 favorites]


I'm just super mad this didn't come out during his leadership campaign.

I'm super mad at the media about this. Doing a deep search on a candidate -- digging through old yearbooks, doing an online search fer crying out loud -- that's all Media 101. I can't fault Trudeau's political opponents for maximizing their opportunity, but I certainly fault Canadian media for not doing reporting fundamentals.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:17 AM on September 19 [7 favorites]


I certainly fault Canadian media for not doing reporting fundamentals

To be fair his socks weren't going to report on themselves
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:19 AM on September 19 [12 favorites]


It's pretty amazing that a photo this egregious didn't come out earlier. It's not like this was hidden somewhere, it was in the school's yearbook.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:21 AM on September 19 [7 favorites]


There Is A Second Photo Of Justin Trudeau In Brownface

oh, and he also did blackface on a different occasion
posted by Ahmad Khani at 8:22 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


is there someone well placed to take over as Liberal PM if he resigns promptly?

I would have no second thoughts about voting for Chrystia Freeland (currently the minister for Foreign Affairs) as PM.
posted by bonehead at 8:24 AM on September 19 [12 favorites]


I can't fault Trudeau's political opponents for maximizing their opportunity

I'm wondering if this came from inside or outside. Which is not to say that it shouldn't have come out, but the timing and the apparent seeding of different photos/videos with different media - Global apparently had their clip for a week - has me morbidly curious about it all.

That said, Trudeau needs to go; appoint Morneau or Freeland or anybody as interim leader, and try to get a campaign on the rails.
posted by nubs at 8:25 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


I was going to suck it up and vote Liberal so the conservatives didn't get in, but this morning I was googling the Edmonton centre NDP and Green party candidates.
posted by piyushnz at 8:26 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


We don't vote for PM (unless you happen to live in a party leader's riding), and describing it as such gets us further into this cult of personality crap that is not good.
posted by jeather at 8:26 AM on September 19 [29 favorites]


Something that has crossed my mind on occasion ever since seeing the film Beetlejuice - if you remove the brownface, is it racist for a white person to sing the Banana Boat song (Day-o)? And today - does the addition of the song make the brownface more egregious?

My 95 percent white Irish Catholic primary school in London, England, sang it at school assembly in the 1980s, along with Boney M for some reason. I'm unsure if that's a tick for the pro- or anti-racist argument.
posted by rpophessagr at 8:27 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


He's be inculcated with and still has a lot of unexamined racism built into his worldview

I believe this, but there is also a lot of willful ignorance involved. I do not believe for one second that Trudeau had never heard people objected to brownface, even if it was considered acceptable by his privileged white racist peers. The lack of examination isn't just a lack of information; it's a choice.

(Not that I think you're excusing him at all. It's just ... "I didn't know better" is such a common excuse.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:27 AM on September 19 [8 favorites]


The whole internet loves Justin Trudeau, a lovely duck that is Canada's head of state! *5 seconds later* We regret to inform you the duck is racist
posted by mbrubeck at 8:29 AM on September 19 [57 favorites]


Wait, are you telling me that the two faced shill for capital is bad!?
posted by Reyturner at 8:29 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


I didn't vote Liberal last time and wasn't planning on it this time. But I probably would if a Liberal vote in my riding was the best way to beat the Conservative option (as is, it's NDP, so lucky me, my conscience is firm). Notice I said Liberal, not Trudeau. In Canada we don't vote directly for a leader, but the party's local representative who, if elected, then serves under the leader in parliament. I imagine there's a lot of scrambling going on right now among Lib-candidates seeking to separate themselves from ... idiot.

Do I find the black/brown face thing reprehensible?

No. I find it idiotic. I also notice the last of the incidents in question was eighteen years ago. He would've been thirty then, I guess, definitely old enough to know better. And like I said already, what an idiot! I don't think he gets to survive this, and this is probably for the good on the long run. Do we really want the definition of a Useful Idiot sitting in the most powerful seat in the country?

I notice that previous paragraph is a mess, contradictory and confused. Oh well. I suppose it's honest then. It will be fascinating to see how this gets played -- what actual fiber this guy does or doesn't have, whether he's just a pretty face or somebody capable of playing the political game the way someone like his father did (in Canada, the game is generally hockey which means elbows up in the corners, blood on the ice if necessary).

If the Liberals are smart, they'll figure out a way to get Bill Maher onside -- this rule in particular. Too little too late, I'm pretty sure, particularly in the wake of something as egregious as ... well, once an idiot ...
posted by philip-random at 8:29 AM on September 19 [8 favorites]


It was broken by TIME magazine, of all sources. Apparently they've had this since June. But given how quickly these pictures are being "found", it's pretty clear to me that this is planned.

It's trap door politics. The Liberals have been doing it to the Tories all last week as well.

It doesn't excuse anyone, but separate from the revelations themselves, it's still completely shitty behaviour in my view. It turns people off voting and just increases cynicism. I think it's a reprehensible anyway, sitting on things like this until election time instead of just dealing with it when things come to light. If Trudeau deserves to lose his job for this, he deserved to lose it in June too.
posted by bonehead at 8:29 AM on September 19 [24 favorites]


I believe this, but there is also a lot of willful ignorance involved.

I agree. No argument from me at all.
posted by bonehead at 8:31 AM on September 19


Time says they got the photos in September, but someone was sitting on it -- I don't think it just happened to be released to the press the day the election was announced.
posted by jeather at 8:33 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


If Trudeau deserves to lose his job for this, he deserved to lose it in June too.

yeah, the timing seems primed to do maximum damage. Enough time for the Conservatives in particular to make sure the WORD gets out (with a vengeance), not enough time for the Liberals to scramble a functional defense. But this is politics. I doubt the Libs would have played it any differently were the bombshell in their hands ...

And I don't for a second believe that TIME's timing here isn't political.
posted by philip-random at 8:34 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


> The privileged upper classes to which Trudeau most definitely belongs.

I grew up in privileged upper-ish classes (or upper-class adjacent) and am the same age as Trudeau, and I remember clearly that blackface was not acceptable in my childhood -- it came up twice, once in the context of a minstrel show on TV and once when it was possible to misinterpret a Halloween costume. I'm an American, not Canadian, but if I knew blackface was wrong, I bet he did, too.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:35 AM on September 19 [7 favorites]


(Not that I think you're excusing him at all. It's just ... "I didn't know better" is such a common excuse.)

It's also an excuse adult white men are offered. White men are forever being called "young" or "youthful" or "misguided". He was 30 years old when this happened. But this kind of "boys will be boys" attitude is so seldomly given to young brown or black men. They are treated like adults and face the consequences and sentencing of adults. It is a very ugly double standard.

I'm not really on twitter any more but I wouldn't be surprised if certain people come to his defense and talk about how he was "still in college" and "people make mistakes when they're younger".

None of this is surprising. The timing of it is very suspect. And it makes me feel like screaming into the void. I am just so tired of these kinds of incidents. They're SOOO common place. I've been fuming since last night.

*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 8:35 AM on September 19 [29 favorites]


Real Talk on Race: Blackface performances a hit in bygone Montreal [CBC News - March 23, 2016]
(and by "bygone" they mean well into the 1950s)

Lots of people still don't understand how hurtful blackface/brownface/yellowface/etc can be. I was immediately reminded of a well publicized blackface frosh week incident that took place at McGill University (Trudeau's alma mater) in 2011.

Arts Against Post Racialism has compiled a timeline of Canadian minstrel shows & blackface incidents which includes plenty of examples from the 21st century.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 8:35 AM on September 19 [8 favorites]


Personally I'm just glad that the world, if only briefly, has stopped pointing and screaming at the British Prime Minister
posted by rpophessagr at 8:35 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


I miss Jack Layton as much as I miss Obama.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:36 AM on September 19 [22 favorites]


Time says they got the photos in September, but someone was sitting on it

sorry, TIME, I rescind my previous sentence. It seems somebody passed you the bombshell and your editors spent the next week scratching their heads asking the obvious:

How can we not publish this and still call ourselves a News organization?
posted by philip-random at 8:37 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


The lack of examination isn't just a lack of information; it's a choice.

Anecdotally, my 2001 bar admissions course was very heavy on sensitivity and awareness training, and it wasn't a new thing. I suspect that Trudeau would have gone through the same thing as part of his teacher certification, if he wasn't generally aware of it in the cultural zeitgeist (which is hard to imagine).
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:38 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


It's 2019, I can't even be shocked by this shit any more.

Let me know when Hasan Minaj covers this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:38 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


Donald Trump: “I tweet and do racist things all the time.”

Boris Johnson: “So do I. I'm pretty racist.”

Justin Trudeau: “Hold my beer.”
posted by Fizz at 8:41 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]


I don't know Canadian politics at all -- is there someone well placed to take over as Liberal PM if he resigns promptly?

Her name was Jody Wilson-Raybould but Trudeau fired her for doing the right thing.
posted by Evstar


Jody Wilson-Raybould 'extremely disappointed' by Trudeau's brownface photo from 2001 (Amy Smart, National Post)
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:41 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Something that has crossed my mind on occasion ever since seeing the film Beetlejuice - if you remove the brownface, is it racist for a white person to sing the Banana Boat song (Day-o)? And today - does the addition of the song make the brownface more egregious?

Yeah, I kinda feel if a white person singing Day-O is racist (and I'm not 100% ready to say it's not), we'd better re-evaluate millions of white high school and college choir members singing spirituals PDQ.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 8:43 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]


It's so easy not to wear blackface. Not wearing blackface takes zero effort and has no downside.
posted by double bubble at 8:43 AM on September 19 [36 favorites]


Oh sweet Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick. I got Bill Morneau to vote for in my riding, he's the guy who got Viola Davis on the $10, he's a white dude but he's relatively woke. He got a majority of votes last election and voting for him is the best I can do to keep the fucking Nazis out of office and make sure we have lots more greenhouse warming and capitalist blowjobs in Ottawa.

NDP are running Brian Chang, a queer asian guy who says a lot of good things about unions and carbon, who's never held office before, doesn't have a Wikipedia page, and sings in a motherfucking professional level choir (Mendelssohn). He looks chef's kiss perfect.

I know there's not a ghost of a chance a Conservative candidate will win my riding so I can vote for either if that was the only consideration.

Can I just say how much I hate this electoral system? Fucking Justin, you fuck, you shot yourself in the foot, did you know that? And maybe that's for the best, because I've been pretty disappointed in everything else you've got going on.

If we get a lot of smart strategizing we can get a Liberal or NDP minority and that would be okay.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:44 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


There have been protests in Canada against blackface specifically since the 1960s. However, there public incidents of it in corporate ads and student events less than a decade ago in Montreal.

Secret Sparrow's link to the AAPR database is really fantastic.
posted by bonehead at 8:44 AM on September 19


I hate that we have to chose between that and white-state ethnonationalsists with a side of climate change denialism.

This is the Liberal party line and it's not true at all.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:48 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


It's shocking to me a school had an "Arabian Nights" event in 2001. Other than just walking around in everyday attire rubbing a lamp, how could you even dress up for such an event without it being a reductive, racist cliche?
posted by smelendez at 8:48 AM on September 19 [15 favorites]


The lib candidate in my riding has not posted anything about this controversy. I'm very tempted to compose a tweet about this "As a high school friend of Trudeau's, why did you not mention his history of blackface in high school? Why have you said nothing about this?"
posted by jeather at 8:49 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]



Arts Against Post Racialism has compiled a timeline of Canadian minstrel shows & blackface incidents

many decades ago, four former high school friends of mine (all macho dudes who I'd grown tired of) won a big deal Halloween costume contest by dressing up in drag as the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders. The next year for an encore, they opted for blackface and a basketball outfits. I don't know if they won that one or not. I just remember seeing the photo and being glad I wasn't hanging with them anymore.

Anyway, that would've been about forty years ago. I recently saw three of these guys at a reunion event and was surprised to find all of them were what you'd now call liberals (up here in Canada anyway), not a reactionary word to be heard from any of them, pro-immigration etc. They hated Trump (one of them is based in America right now and had a particular passion in this regard), and though I couldn't tell you how they'd vote (people with money often can't help putting personal wealth above social concerns), I'm pretty sure they wouldn't for a second try to argue that that blackface stuff was absurdly wrong and idiotic and regrettable (and other relevant adjectives).

My point in all of this, is that people do smarten up over time. Some of them anyway.
posted by philip-random at 8:51 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]


Do I find the black/brown face thing reprehensible?

No. I find it idiotic.


It can be both. (It is both.)
posted by sallybrown at 8:56 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]


My point in all of this, is that people do smarten up over time. Some of them anyway.

While I agree that people do smarten up, they do change, they do learn, they grow as individuals, I agree with all of this. The one thing that people often forget when they talk about this kind of growth and education is that people who are white have the ability to grow, to change, to learn, to adapt.

They're given opportunities and chances to fuck up and learn. Those same chances are usually not offered to brown and black people. People of colour, visible minorities, people who are on the fringes and at risk rarely get this kind of consideration. They're held to a higher standard. And this is something that should not be forgotten.

Justin Trudeau kept all of this quiet for this many years. He could have come out and addressed his past, but he chose to remain quiet. And this assumes he remembered these incidents. We have no way of knowing if he did. If he says he forgot about them (that's just as damning) as it indicates he's internalized this kind of bigotry and doesn't even think about these incidents as worthy of reflection or wrong in his eyes.

Ugh, fuck him.
posted by Fizz at 9:00 AM on September 19 [36 favorites]


I'm pretty sure they wouldn't for a second try to argue that that blackface stuff was absurdly wrong and idiotic and regrettable (and other relevant adjectives).

My point in all of this, is that people do smarten up over time. Some of them anyway.


And what, praytell, is the point of your point?

If it's not okay now (it isn't), then it wasn't okay then. But white people, who abuse their power and privilege to make themselves the gatekeepers on what they get to do and not do, have historically allowed (nay, encouraged even) it to happen. He should have known better then - he was well into adulthood, it was the 90s/early aughts. He should have paid the consequences at the time. But he didn't, so he's going to pay them now. Ideally with interest owed.
posted by nightrecordings at 9:03 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


Not exactly surprised about this. More surprised it stayed a secret for so long.
posted by captain afab at 9:03 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Goddamn. I miss Layton deep in my heart. I'll be voting NDP for sure now which is my heart (and I apologize in the other thread for thinking of betraying just this one time) but I'm petrified of Sheer. Trump has caused white pride shit (which is always here) to be out in the open and anti LGBTQ shit to be worse and Sheer just aches to be Trump. Sigh.
posted by kanata at 9:04 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


For argument's sake, we can agree Trudeau has learned and wouldn't do that again. However, this mistake he made at thirty -- not in high school (where he also made mistakes) but as an adult teaching high school -- is allowed to be a big enough mistake that he shouldn't be in politics. Learning and changing don't erase the past; an apology doesn't mean you can't have consequences.
posted by jeather at 9:07 AM on September 19 [24 favorites]


Do I find the black/brown face thing reprehensible?

No. I find it idiotic.

It can be both. (It is both.)


I'm not going to disagree. But from a pragmatic political perspective, it's the idiocy that speaks loudest to me. As my more recent comment attempts to point out, as reprehensible as blackface is-was-will-always-be, I think it's something a young person can live to thoughtfully regret over time. But Trudeau was thirty the last time we know he did this. You are who you are by the time you're thirty, by every metric you're adolescence is behind you. If you're still doing profoundly idiotic things, you are profoundly idiotic. And we don't need any more idiots in politics, particularly in top jobs.
posted by philip-random at 9:07 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


a big enough mistake that he shouldn't be in politics.

Agreed. Any other candidate for the party would rightfully be booted. Why shouldn't the leader be held to an even higher standard?
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:09 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Yeah, maybe if you make a big mistake, even if you learn from it, one of the things you should learn is that maybe you're not suited for the kind of leadership that puts you in charge of a whole nation. Maybe if you spend ANY time as a white nationalist, or an abuser of women, or an advocate of homophobia, etc, you should cede the field to people who HAVEN'T done those things. There are plenty of great support roles for people who have grown and learned their lessons. There are also plenty of people who didn't start out as assholes who could be leading us.
posted by rikschell at 9:09 AM on September 19 [12 favorites]


I was disappointed by his role in SNC Lavalin, as it showed he wasn't really a feminist or a friend to indigenous people.

If aliens from a planet that has had true gender equality for eons landed tomorrow and said, "What is this 'mansplaining' you speak of?" I'd play them the recording of Michael Wernick mansplaining Jody Wilson-Raybould's job as the AG to her.

She repeatedly tells him she's "protecting the Prime Minister" by moving ahead with the SNC Lavalin prosecution. And you know that the hilarious thing is? White collar crime is treated so laughably lightly in Canada that actual prosecution would have been about as lenient as any deferred prosecution agreement.

*flips table*

But Trudeau and his inner circle were outraged that an Indigenous woman who knew they file better than any of them was demonstrating more foresight than they could ever hope to muster and was pushing back.

*flips table*

And she made that recording because she could smell those bozos coming for her a mile away, demonstrating once and for all that she was indeed smarter and more politically saavy than the dauphin and his coterie of creepy white henchdudes.

*flips table*

Fizz, I'm gonna make an IKEA run because we're gonna need a lot more fucking tables before this thing is over.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:15 AM on September 19 [41 favorites]


There are also plenty of people who didn't start out as assholes who could be leading us.

Our modern societies that govern the North American continent were built on white supremacy, genocide and slavery.

North America needs a truth and reconciliation commission like 140 years ago.

We need to actually deal with this and stop deluding ourselves that playing liberals versus conservatives politics is doing anything useful at all.
posted by nikaspark at 9:29 AM on September 19 [18 favorites]


Trudeau's behaviour is reprehensible, but the notion of Scheer at 24 sussex makes me want to barf. repeatedly.
posted by hearthpig at 9:31 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]


Donald Trump: “I tweet and do racist things all the time.”

Boris Johnson: “So do I. I'm pretty racist.”

Justin Trudeau: “Hold my beer.”
posted by Fizz at 12:41 AM on September 20 [3 favorites +] [!]


Why is it Rob Fords all the way down?
posted by saysthis at 9:32 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Oh good. Now the actual honest to god white nationalist party (not that one, the other one) will form a majority. Marvelous.

Maybe JT playing 5d chess and this is long planned stunt to pickup some racist votes.
posted by Damienmce at 9:41 AM on September 19


The racist vote is currently spread widely over the CPC, PPC and BQ.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 9:45 AM on September 19


FFS, I went to high school in the '80s and this would not have been even CLOSE to appropriate back then.
posted by SoberHighland at 9:57 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


The lib candidate in my riding has not posted anything about this controversy.

Same here. I almost feel bad for Liberal candidates. They put themselves forward to fight for their vision of Canada, and today find themselves having to excuse brownface. That's not what they signed up for.

But if you base your party around a personality rather than a set of principles, that's the risk you take, I suppose.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:58 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


The racist vote is currently spread widely over the CPC, PPC and BQ.


Green's new advisor Warren Kinsella will ensure the Green Party gets a segment of that vote, too.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 10:00 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


I find party politics hard to keep track of, but I am reminded that my Canadian history teacher had reiterated to us in the late 90s a somewhat vague and underspecified idea, that "capital L Liberal is not the same as lowercase l liberal".

Thus I am guessing that beyond Justin Trudeau this reflects on not just him but Canadian political demography, that his racist insensitivities here arise out of a white dominated, Liberal, so-called "centrist" culture.

Thus Justin Trudeau is like a mushroom, sprouting out of a mycelial network that has and continues to nourish itself through a particular kind of northern, white dominated, white fragile, racist cultural mechanism.
posted by polymodus at 10:05 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


A little annoyed at the wishes for Jack Layton to rise from the grave.

He's dead. His successor is Jagmeet Singh. If you want a labour/social democrat party in government (as I do), your choice is as clear as it was when Jack was alive.

I already know that a lot of the NDP's holy-shit-racist rural base is put off the party because its leader is brown. Let's not do that here.
posted by klanawa at 10:29 AM on September 19 [34 favorites]


And now, because this country is deeply, deeply stupid, a literal sock-puppet has released images of a Sinterklaas event held on a Conservative candidate's property; the candidate says they did not dress up as Zwarte Piet.

We're a mosaic of idiocy.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:30 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]


@JudyTrinhCBC:

Please note who the reporters are who broke this massive Trudeau brownface story. Women. Two are persons of colour. They’re outside Ottawa’s political bubble. #journalism
@anna_P_k @maddiecarlisle2 @melissalchan


Here's the NPR interview with Anna Kambhampaty, one of the journalists (segment starts at around 4:30).
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:32 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Green's new advisor Warren Kinsella will ensure the Green Party gets a segment of that vote, too.

Ah yes, the guy who thinks he's punk as fuck but who's really just an angry old conservative for hire.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:33 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


It's also worth noting that there are interested foreign states working to influence the election - China, India and the US. Perhaps others as well.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 10:36 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


And now, because this country is deeply, deeply stupid, a literal sock-puppet has released images of a Sinterklaas event held on a Conservative candidate's property

Ed the Sock is a guy who acts super punk but is actually pretty much a middle-aged centrist, and the weird "whataboutism" that he's engaged in with that tweet sort of proves it. But, then, I think Ed the Sock stopped being a culturally relevant character almost 20 years ago...definitely when he left Much Music, at any rate.
posted by asnider at 10:41 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Kinsella's possibly the most evil fuck in Canadian politics today. If the current Liberals did one thing right, it was throwing his shoes out the door. We don't need self-described "princes of darkness" in our politics who think any means are justified by the ends. Even if he's "liberal". May hiring him was a huge "I can never vote for you" moment for me.
posted by bonehead at 10:42 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


And now, because this country is deeply, deeply stupid,

a lot of ingrained racism just has to age out of relevance, I think. My grandfather (born in 1900) was a wonderful man in many ways, but like many a Nova Scotian of his generation, found it way too easy to consider people of African heritage just not equal to white folks. And yeah, my mom remembers seeing him clowning around in blackface. He also told her once that the reason black people weren't welcome in their church (RC) was because their souls weren't quite the same.

My mother on the other hand, now almost ninety herself, doesn't even begin to hold such beliefs, and is quite heartbroken that young Trudeau has proven such a dolt.

Final note on my grandfather. By the time he was an old man (into his 80s), one of his friends was an old black guy. They'd meet at a park bench and watch the world go by together. So yeah, things do change.
posted by philip-random at 10:43 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


Wait, Ed the Sock is still a thing? Geeze. What year is this, 1997?
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:52 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]


I hope we can stop pretending the Liberal party of Canada is any way progressive or left (except in the slightest token of ways to keep actual progressives out of power) now and maybe make better decisions in 4 years but naahhhh just kidding every mouse knows only cats are fit to govern.
posted by rodlymight at 10:52 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]


Any other candidate for the party would rightfully be booted. Why shouldn't the leader be held to an even higher standard?

The short answer is because that almost certainly leads to Prime Minister Andy Scheer, with enough Conservative premiers to open and change the constitution.

Brownface Trudeau is very, very bad. A conservative majority would be exponentially worse.
posted by rocket88 at 10:54 AM on September 19 [13 favorites]


I'm put off by Jagmeet Singh's like for means-tested social programs, though I will still vote for my NDP candidate.
posted by jeather at 10:54 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


Same here. I almost feel bad for Liberal candidates. They put themselves forward to fight for their vision of Canada, and today find themselves having to excuse brownface. That's not what they signed up for.

Yeah, you run with the leader you have, not the leader you want.

I don't think JT is a bad person, he's just a lazy person. As much as I hate to quote Jesse Brown, JT is a lightweight. He's just not that deep. He wants to do the right thing but like all good liberals, he does so by trying to upset as few people as possible. At least he goes through the motions of trying to do the right thing.
posted by GuyZero at 10:56 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


The short answer is because that almost certainly leads to Prime Minister Andy Scheer, with enough Conservative premiers to open and change the constitution.

I would rather vote for a Liberal candidate with Chrystia Freeland or Catherine McKenna as their leader than with Trudeau. He can step down and let one of them take the leadership. NDP is still my first choice though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:03 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]


I'm put off by Jagmeet Singh's like for means-tested social programs, though I will still vote for my NDP candidate.
Yep. Also not super thrilled that when an Ontario MPP he spoke in the provincial legislature in support of leniency for a religious extremist convicted for their role in a political assassination in another country. While I understand it was a statement against the death penalty, and I agree with that position, this was maybe not the right case for him to use to make that point, nor am I super pleased about his ability to keep sticking his foot in that particular mess. If I want Scheer to make clear public statements about his party unequivocably rejecting Faith Goldy and her ilk (and I absolutely do want that), I should be able to expect the same from the leader of a party I actually prefer to vote for, and I do expect it. And he's still more waffly than an IHOP about that stuff.

The fact that, like, two weeks ago 122 ridings still didn't have NDP candidates is also a bit of a crisis, yeah?

None of these are currently deal breakers for me, but it doesn't make me confident that the party can handle its shit.
posted by Fish Sauce at 11:16 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Green's new advisor Warren Kinsella will ensure the Green Party gets a segment of that vote, too.

I've been following Warren on Twitter for a while and it's hilarious. As soon as the cheque cashed he's suddenly pumping out the anti Trudeau op eds for the Toronto Sun, in sharp contrast to his takes literally a few weeks before hand. Looking forward to him switching back when contract ends.
posted by Damienmce at 11:25 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Scheer dodged a bullet by being so creepy he's never been invited to a party.
posted by Damienmce at 11:27 AM on September 19 [16 favorites]


I have never been a fan of Justin Trudeau, and this has obviously just cemented my opinion. He reminds me of someone I know who spouts vaguely progressive rhetoric but doesn’t understand that he has enormous privilege as a straight white cis male with money. Trudeau should have known in 2001 that this was unacceptable.

That said, I appreciated that his apology was surprisingly straightforward. It wasn’t a non-apology like “I’m sorry if anyone was offended,” which is actually what I was expecting from him. He didn’t deny he had done it, didn’t double down, and didn’t make excuses.

I am also infuriated by Andrew Scheer’s performative outrage. He and his party are white supremacists who don’t give two shits about people of colour, so they shouldn’t start pretending they care now.

And I’m equally pissed at all the handwringing about how if people don’t vote for the Liberals they’re handing the country to the Conservatives. That is one of those fucking self-fulfilling prophecies and there is a LOT of subtle and not-so-subtle racism against Jagmeet Singh. Why should my choice be between Mr. Blackface and Mr. White Supremacist?
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:32 AM on September 19 [19 favorites]


I'm an NDP member, but my riding is increasingly looking like a tight race between Libs and Greens, with Conservatives having a chance if it splits evenly. I'll probably have to hold my nose and make a strategic choice next month and this revelation is not helping.
posted by rocket88 at 11:34 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


I have never been a fan of Justin Trudeau, and this has obviously just cemented my opinion. He reminds me of someone I know who spouts vaguely progressive rhetoric but doesn’t understand that he has enormous privilege as a straight white cis male with money.

When you start to think of Justin like the 'Class President of Canada', it helps. That's how we've referred to him the last few months in this house. It makes dealing with so much of his bullshit a bit easier.
posted by Fizz at 11:36 AM on September 19 [17 favorites]


for what it's worth, I've never once been able to "vote my conscience" in a Canadian federal election. It's always been strategic. Or as the t-shirt said:

Live Your Conscience. Vote Strategically.
posted by philip-random at 11:38 AM on September 19 [13 favorites]


When you start to think of Justin like the 'Class President of Canada', it helps.

Heh. I've thought of him as Student Council President since he was made Liberal Leader. He has always comes across as amateur which is why this news did not surprise me at all. I just sighed and yelled at the radio "Of course he did. That dumbass."
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:42 AM on September 19 [8 favorites]


That said, I appreciated that his apology was surprisingly straightforward.

To a point. It was all about him. He's disappointed in himself, he's pissed off with himself. And that's great and all, but there was no acknowledgement of what impact his actions had or may have on others.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:42 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]


When you start to think of Justin like the 'Class President of Canada', it helps. That's how we've referred to him the last few months in this house. It makes dealing with so much of his bullshit a bit easier.

Oh my god, Fizz, that is the PERFECT analogy for him!
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:44 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


Live Your Conscience. Vote Strategically.

Personally, this is why I've always favoured some form of preference voting (IRV, STV) over some form of mixed proportional. MMP doesn't always fix strategic voting concerns.
However, one reason why MMP is sometimes seen as less preferable than straight List PR is that it can give rise to what are called ‘strategic voting’ anomalies. In New Zealand in 1996, in the constituency of Wellington Central, some National Party strategists urged voters not to vote for the National Party candidate because they had calculated that under MMP his election would not give the National Party another seat but simply replace an MP who would be elected from their party list. It was therefore better for the National Party to see a candidate elected from another party, providing that candidate was in sympathy with the National Party’s ideas and ideology, than for votes to be ‘wasted’ in support of their own candidate.
posted by bonehead at 11:46 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]


It was all about him. He's disappointed in himself, he's pissed off with himself. And that's great and all, but there was no acknowledgement of what impact his actions had or may have on others.

That is very true, and it aligns well with his self-centredness. I was just surprised it wasn't a non-apology, a minimization, or denial (though I suppose how could one deny that photo and video evidence?).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:47 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]


Man, what the hell is it with rich people
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:55 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]


Released four years ago, this story would have put Tom Mulcair in the Prime Minister's office. Make of that what you will.
posted by No Robots at 12:01 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]


Live Your Conscience. Vote Strategically.

Personally, this is why I've always favoured some form of preference voting (IRV, STV) over some form of mixed proportional.


Preference voting is also way easier to explain and understand. As a friend once put it, if you can't easily explain it to a reasonably smart eleven year old, it's too complicated.
posted by philip-random at 12:02 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


It was all about him. He's disappointed in himself, he's pissed off with himself. And that's great and all, but there was no acknowledgement of what impact his actions had or may have on others.

He also skirted using the phrase brownface/blackface. It was very obvious in how he avoided those words:
“In 2001, I was a teacher out in Vancouver. I attended an end-of-year gala and the theme was Arabian Nights. I dressed up in an Alladin costume and put makeup on. I shouldn’t have done that. I should’ve known better. But I didn’t. And I’m really sorry.”
You didn't put on makeup asshole.
posted by Fizz at 12:02 PM on September 19 [13 favorites]


Robert Jago:

There are many who will dismiss this as a non-issue. But as with his cruel dismissal of protestors from Grassy Narrows (“Thanks for your donation”), it shows you that Trudeau’s behaviour towards people of colour and Indigenous people isn’t just indifference or expediency, but something else.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:03 PM on September 19


Also, he applied the brownface/blackface to his hands. Do you know how deliberate and purposeful you have to be to give that type of attention to detail. I mean, wow. Just wow.
posted by Fizz at 12:06 PM on September 19 [11 favorites]


I’m reminded of that study about the correlation between attractiveness and success in life.
posted by mantecol at 12:07 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump: “I tweet and do racist things all the time.”

Boris Johnson: “So do I. I'm pretty racist.”

Justin Trudeau: “Hold my beer.”
posted by Fizz


My Canadian officemate has the cover of a couple year old RollingStone taped up in our office, with a picture of Trudeau and the caption "Why can't he be our president".
posted by 445supermag at 12:20 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]


Why is it Rob Fords all the way down?

Macron’s hard line on migration alarms rights groups
posted by Apocryphon at 12:26 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


SNC, one could argue he was trying to do the right thing

One could argue for a flat earth as well, I just don't see this at all. His actions re SNC were high handed and utterly vile, benefitting his wealthy campaign contributors.

The comment I am responding to seems to have disappeared, or at least changed - regrets.
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 12:28 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]




I am kind of amazed that Trudeau couldn't do more than just apologize. Given that this all happened 18+ years ago it would be so easy for him to say that some time after he realized that he had some problematic behaviours/attitudes and worked on them and then point out to the fact that his cabinet has 3 Sikhs among other POC ministers (including the first minister of Somali heritage). "I did something bad in the past for which I apologize unreservedly. I have fixed myself. And here is proof that I have walked the walk". Then he could go back to pressuring Andrew Scheer to walk back his comments he made against same-sex marriage and ask Scheer to show what action he has taken to prove his beliefs have changed.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:35 PM on September 19 [12 favorites]


Justin Trudeau Speaks to the Press Amid Brownface and Blackface Scandal [YouTube]. It's no longer LIVE. (41:00) is where he begins speaking/answering questions.
posted by Fizz at 12:39 PM on September 19


[Folks, please refresh and stop responding to deleted comments. ]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:49 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


I don't expect this will make much difference in the election. The left fundamentalists were already voting NDP.
posted by dodecapus at 12:50 PM on September 19 [1 favorite]


When he was asked if there were other incidents of blackface/brown face, he responded that he's wary of putting a definitive number to that question.

I mean, damn man. Have there been that many Halloween/costume parties? How regular a thing is this? I know I don't have the best memory, and you cannot be expected to recall every little thing in your life, but this isn't a little thing. Also, I'm pretty sure I can recall when I've ever applied blackface in my 38 years on this planet. Here's my answer: ZERO TIMES.
posted by Fizz at 12:51 PM on September 19 [26 favorites]


As apologies go, that wasn't too bad, I guess. I'm glad he repeatedly acknowledged his own immense privileges, and I hope we as a country can now have a serious discussion about privilege, but I doubt we will.
I'm also glad he started by acknowledging people who experience racism every day and directing his apology to them. His damage control team probably couldn't have done a better job.
Also, Global News's David Akin is a colossal prick, as usual.
posted by rocket88 at 12:57 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


Did he have active things he planned to do re racism, both his and the party's, or was it a lot of words?
posted by jeather at 12:59 PM on September 19


The left fundamentalists were already voting NDP.

Whoa. Tell us more about these "left fundamentalists."
posted by No Robots at 1:04 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]


"I don't expect this will make much difference in the election. The left fundamentalists were already voting NDP."

Why would you think that only "fundamentalists" would be put off by this?
posted by Secret Sparrow at 1:06 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]


I'm an American, not Canadian, but if I knew blackface was wrong, I bet he did, too.

I don’t think you understand how much of a different cultural/media bubble you’re in when you grow up in Qc during those years.

I grew up in this and had no idea this was an issue before it started getting local media attention a few years ago.

Still better than his father’s anti-semitic writings though.

Never liked JT (no substance, just a brand) but I never thought his fondness for dressing up would be his undoing.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:12 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]


Preference voting is also way easier to explain and understand.

And it's already used by most of the parties to choose their leaders, isn't it?
posted by clawsoon at 1:20 PM on September 19 [1 favorite]


'What I did hurt them': Trudeau apologizes to racialized Canadians over blackface scandal
During an event in Winnipeg, Trudeau said he did not understand at the time how profoundly offensive his actions were because he has lived with "layers of privilege."

"What I did hurt them. Hurt people who shouldn't have to face intolerance and discrimination because of their identity. This is something that I deeply, deeply regret," he said.
Sounds like he's reading this thread.
posted by clawsoon at 1:24 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]


I don’t think you understand how much of a different cultural/media bubble you’re in when you grow up in Qc during those years.


I'm not going to defend Quebec's history (and current, ongoing problem) with blackface (and it's not surprising he did this at a French high school, because there is some group of francophone Quebeckers who insist that the history of minstrely is English so it's fine when they do it, though anglophones do this too), but JT's adult decision to do this was at a school in BC, after getting a BEd from UBC, and it was people in BC who published it on their newsletter and their yearbook -- this is a white person bubble, not a "weird cultural media bubble" from the son of Margaret Trudeau.
posted by jeather at 1:34 PM on September 19 [18 favorites]


Prior to this 338 had the odds in favour of a Lib majority (usual post 2016 caveats around long term polling underestimating populist reaction). I suspect this election will require JT demonstrating the cool competence and keen political savvy he has thus far kept to himself and possibly the discovery of one or two literal skeletons in Scheer's closet.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 2:25 PM on September 19 [1 favorite]


literal skeletons in Scheer's closet.

I think if they discover a literal skeleton inside Scheer's body that might be enough to get him elected, but I doubt the flaccid meat-bag is going to get a majority.
posted by GuyZero at 2:39 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]


> racialized Canadians

American, here. Is "racialized" really what you guys say? (Not that we have a better term south of the border.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:51 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


Just remember everyone, that the NDP is an option. They where the official opposition the government before the current one. We aren't screwed like the US with only having two parties that can do anything. Plus, even if they don't win, if they have enough seats they could be part of a coalition government.
posted by Canageek at 2:54 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]




Sort of, the NDP in my riding has two candidates reign over their own issues. Currently trying to figure out who is running.
posted by Mitheral at 2:57 PM on September 19


Just remember everyone, that the NDP is an option.

While this is true, many people will vote for a burning cross if it was the Liberal/Conservative candidate. But yes, you as an individual can try to do better than that.
posted by GuyZero at 3:01 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]


American, here. Is "racialized" really what you guys say? (Not that we have a better term south of the border.)

"Racialized" is a thing everywhere. It's about recognizing race as a thing that is imposed, rather than a thing that is innate (to grossly oversimplify).
posted by klanawa at 3:02 PM on September 19 [12 favorites]


> "Racialized" is a thing everywhere. It's about recognizing race as a thing that is imposed, rather than a thing that is innate (to grossly oversimplify)

In that article, it sounded like it meant "non-White" or "person of color."
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:09 PM on September 19


The people in this thread calling for JT's head while perfectly aware that is likely means a Scheer government are the literal definition of what is wrong with progressives around the world.

Is that he did wrong? Of course.
Did he know it was wrong at the time? I seriously doubt it.

Is the damage caused even in the same universe as the damage Scheer would do if elected? No fucking way.

This is utter insanity, this is a houseful of people arguing over who left a candle burning instead of fighting the forest fires their neighbors are setting.

This is fully and completely insane.
posted by Twinge at 3:19 PM on September 19 [15 favorites]


In that article, it sounded like it meant "non-White" or "person of color."

That pretty much goes with the structural dynamics of white-majority cultures. If whiteness is the unmarked default, white people don't have the experience of being racialized, unlike people of color living in that same society. The concept can be applied more generally, but when we're talking about e.g. the majority of the US or Canada to be non-white and to be racialized go hand in hand.
posted by cortex at 3:22 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]


In that article, it sounded like it meant "non-White" or "person of color."

...which is racializing language. (Imagine being defined not as what you are, but as the negation of something else?)
posted by klanawa at 3:25 PM on September 19 [8 favorites]


From the start of a thread by Dr. Ritika Goel (Threadreader version):

We are missing the point if this story becomes about Justin Trudeau being unveiled as "a racist". Here is an opportunity to think more deeply about the situation and what allows it to be so. I'm not in any way surprised by the image that has been circulated.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:27 PM on September 19 [8 favorites]


"No. I find it idiotic. I also notice the last of the incidents in question was eighteen years ago. He would've been thirty then, I guess, definitely old enough to know better."

I read Trudeau's political autobiography (I find these documents faaaaaaaascinating for the stories they tell and the stories they skip and the stories they inadvertently hint at), and one thing that was BLINDINGLY clear was that Trudeau was kind of a jerky trust fund kid until WELL into his 30s who basically took jobs teaching because they let him travel and go skiing a lot and drink a LOT of beer with his equally wealthy friends (and after his brother died in 1998 he definitely coped with that by frat-bro-ing even harder). Like the book frames it as a time of self-discovery in service to his eventual call to politics, but it's pretty obvious he was just wandering around partying from the time he left university until he got married. This is not a man who had ANY ambition or direction until he needed to impress(/keep up with) his accomplished and ambitious wife.

Which is to say I was disappointed, but not surprised, to find out the last incident was when he was 30. Because that dude was an irresponsible adolescent until he got married (at 35ish?) and that era in his life is not impressive for his rectitude or responsibility or, like, much of anything. Even at 30, he did not think he was ever going to do anything with his life or that acting like an asshole was ever going to catch up to him. He spent all his time with other rich white dudes with semi-jobs or doing poverty tourism. One of the things he does address in the book is his close friend and ex-roommate who was arrested for child pornography, and he gets a chance to frame it in the most favorable possible light for himself, and reading it I was kind-of like "... why is he trying to protect the child pornographer's feelings while denouncing him?" and I've thought about that a lot since Epstein, all the people who knew or suspected what was going on and just looked the other way because they were all rich white dudes together.

I've wondered for a while if his man-child 20s and early 30s would eventually bring a scandal now that he was PM, but at the time I was kind of like "he's been in the media glare since he was a child, surely the media already knows everything." Then after Epstein I was kind of like "... unless he was spending most of his time with other rich white dudes. Which, uh, he mostly was, which means there are probably some other shoes to drop." Hello shoe, I guess.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:44 PM on September 19 [45 favorites]


> That pretty much goes with the structural dynamics of white-majority cultures.

Yup, I know. It's the use of it by a newspaper to mean "people of color" that surprised me; I don't feel like I've seen it in American newspapers. As far as I remember -- and this is without doing research -- I've seen it in the Washington Post or whatever to mean "racially aware" or similar, but not as it seems to be used here.

But this is an American derail and probably not relevant.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:50 PM on September 19


From Jagmeet Singh's response

I’ve faced a lot of racism in my life and I can be honest with you, I fought back when I faced racism. I fought back with my fists. But there’s a lot of people who weren’t able to do that...

...seeing this image today, the kids that see this image...are going to think about all of the times in their life that they were made fun of, that they were hurt, that they were hit, that they were insulted, that they were made to feel less because of who they are...

I want to talk to all of the kids out there, all the folks who lived this and are now grown up and still feeling the pain of racism. I want you to know that you might feel like giving up on Canada. You might feel like giving up on yourselves. I want you to know that you have value, you have worth, and you are loved


That's not a speech Jack could have given. If you have a halfway viable NDP candidate, vote Singh 2019, with pride.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 3:50 PM on September 19 [31 favorites]



I am also infuriated by Andrew Scheer’s performative outrage. He and his party are white supremacists who don’t give two shits about people of colour, so they shouldn’t start pretending they care now.

Fake headline: Scheer's Conservatives now regretting pro-blackface policy
posted by philip-random at 4:08 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


Fake headline: Scheer's Conservatives now regretting pro-blackface policy.

Um. Heh. About that.

I submit this item into evidence:

Rebel Media published this defence of blackface on February 12, 2017. Hamish Marshall, who is Andrew Scheer's campaign director, was on the company's board of directors. He remained there for eight more months.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:11 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]


The First Nations and Metís communities in Canada hate Trudeau. He’s a racist who breaks treaties and faith. This is absolutely no surprise to anyone that’s been paying attention to how he treats racialized communities. He’s pulling a Paul Ryan - being cute to distract from his reprehensible actions.

Frankly, a lot of the comments in this thread have me raising my eyebrows fiercely. It’s real telling that people think it’s ok to hand wave this sort of thing away, especially in a nation where you are voting for party not person. White people really are ready to throw POC under the bus the moment it’s the most convenient thing to do.

He enacts racist policy. This isn’t a blip in his past, it’s visual evidence of his values.
posted by stoneweaver at 4:34 PM on September 19 [29 favorites]


The fact that his rise to political stardom took off when he beat up a First Nations man is a little too on-point.
posted by clawsoon at 4:40 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


(Better article.)
posted by clawsoon at 4:46 PM on September 19 [1 favorite]


Trudeau has been criticized by Indigenous activists for the way he described Brazeau, an Indigenous senator, to the U.S. magazine when discussing a charity boxing match held in 2012.

"I wanted someone who would be a good foil, and we stumbled upon the scrappy tough-guy senator from an Indigenous community. He fit the bill, and it was a very nice counterpoint," Trudeau told Rolling Stone.

"I saw it as the right kind of narrative, the right story to tell."


Kind of a continuation of Trudeau père's 1969 White Paper, the name of which is also rather on the nose, and which Tom King once referred to as a "homegrown Termination Act."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:51 PM on September 19 [1 favorite]


Maxime Bernier must be in an agony of indecision right now. Blackface good, but Trudeau bad! What do, what do??
posted by clawsoon at 4:56 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]


An apology to add to the supercut, as compiled for Hasan Minhaj's "Two Sides of Canada" Patriot Act episode a couple of weeks back. Minhaj interviewed Trudeau for the show; FPP here.

Hasan Minhaj via Twitter, earlier today: Uhhh I have a few more questions...
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:07 PM on September 19


(Iris Gambol, I think your Twitter link is broken.)
posted by clawsoon at 5:10 PM on September 19 [1 favorite]




Thanks, clawsoon; it was meant to go here.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:24 PM on September 19


I am exhausted by the bizarre ideology that leads to so much more outrage over someone being in brown and blackface in a picture from two decades ago than, say, the enabling of a horrifying genocide in Yemen that has harmed millions of people.

This is an abject failure of Western left-liberalism. At this point, I am reduced to hoping Henry Kissinger somehow is found to have said something transphobic or wore blackface a few decades ago because it seems Western war criminals will never face any sort of accountability otherwise.
posted by Ouverture at 5:25 PM on September 19 [32 favorites]


The First Nations and Metís communities in Canada hate Trudeau. He’s a racist who breaks treaties and faith.

You are not wrong. Unfortunately this also describes every other Prime Minister so far.
posted by GuyZero at 5:47 PM on September 19 [11 favorites]


Ouverture: I am exhausted by the bizarre ideology that leads to so much more outrage over someone being in brown and blackface in a picture from two decades ago than, say, the enabling of a horrifying genocide in Yemen that has harmed millions of people.

Is it possible that the two are connected, that a lack of concern about PoC in Canada is related to a lack of concern about PoC in Yemen?
posted by clawsoon at 6:28 PM on September 19 [8 favorites]


Is it possible that the two are connected, that a lack of concern about PoC in Canada is related to a lack of concern about PoC in Yemen?

Given that the Saudis are also people of color and that Obama, another person of color, has sold far more (and worse) weapons to the Saudis, I would say these things may be loosely correlated in this case. But more importantly, it is also an ultimately meaningless distinction to the Yemenis killed, mutilated, and displaced by these war crimes.

In my conversations with other radicals of color, we talk about how relatively easy it is to make people in the West care about issues in the West, even the big things like white supremacy, compared to making Westerners care about the bipartisan imperialist horrors even their most woke and diverse leaders have unleashed on people of color outside their borders.
posted by Ouverture at 6:35 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]


Jeather, I'd agree that JT's circumstances and the circles he was in are quite different from the what most francophone people of his age were.

Also, I was just reflecting on that fact at that time I might have done the same thing since I had no idea that this was considered offensive and inconsiderate. I would have come to regret it, but at the time I would have had no idea of what I was doing. I guess I'm fortunate our group costume for halloween 2001 was Wizard of Oz, I was tin man in full silver makeup.

I'm unsure how this will play for the election... for sure some of the more progressive base of the liberals will switch to NDP (its the only move possible, the greens have worst baggage in their candidates), but I feel that unless there's a shift in polls that accentuates over the weeks or the story develops furthermore, lots of people will hold their nose/not care and vote liberal anyway. The people most likely to be swayed by this are most likely not voting liberal already.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:21 PM on September 19 [1 favorite]


Also the saudi contract is linked to a bunch of jobs in the 4 ridings of London, On (2 of them libs) and I believe carried a penalty big enough to end General Dynamics if cancelled. Again somebody, decided 2 ridings were more important than doing the right thing and stop enabling the saudis.

Of course this would not have been such a big deal if he had followed through with his promises of election reform since vote locality would have been less of a factor.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:26 PM on September 19 [2 favorites]


Can we not with Brazeau? Corruption, drug charges, common assault, sexual harassment, sexual assault... the guy isn’t a martyr, he’s a trash fire of a person who has been very publicly an utter asshole for a very long time. The boxing match was a stupid thing done in a stupid way, but Brazeau is every bit as foul as JT has ever been, and just as much at fault for how that stupid thing went down.
posted by Fish Sauce at 8:37 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]


In my conversations with other radicals of color, we talk about how relatively easy it is to make people in the West care about issues in the West,

Yeah this is something I struggle with, as it's like when leftists saying race is a distraction from class and inequality. The logic they use is roughly that when a class-privileged PoC takes issue with racism, they are just unwittingly reinforcing class interests. So that part is intelligible to me. The part that I don't understand is, suppose I renounce my class position and work towards a more class-equal society. But people here are still going to be randomly racist toward me. Am I supposed to just think, oh well those instances of racism are just illusions, and remember the bigger picture? How does adopting a radical leftist or anti-racist position protect me from everyday Western racism of the sort that Trudeau demonstrates? What is the psychological grounding for this?

It's just a knot that I've not worked through, and I don't know have a satisfactory set of answers to yet.
posted by polymodus at 10:04 PM on September 19 [7 favorites]


For some reason this story has called to mind that scene in In The Loop where Peter Capaldi asks the MP(?) if he'd have blacked up for an interview, and the MP says "Probably, it was radio." Like, that is the level of not giving a shit dumbassery on display. The only difference is the conservatives would defend him.
posted by axiom at 11:11 PM on September 19


I hope we can stop pretending the Liberal party of Canada is any way progressive or left

The bills they pass are progressive. Since 2015: carbon pricing, Cannabis Act, medical assistance in dying, gender expression and gender identity added to the Canadian Human Rights Act, creation of a commissioner for indigenous languages, improved animal rights (fighting, bestiality, ban on whale captivity), banning oil tankers from a part of the BC coast, introduced a new tax bracket (income above $200k), and a bunch more.

There's a lot more to be done, but these are progressive causes. A CPC government wouldn't be passing legislation like this.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 11:19 PM on September 19 [10 favorites]


I want to say that Trudeau dressing in Blackface (and fuck doing it multiple times) is so fucking stupid that it takes my breath away. But the performative offence the Conservatives and parts of the media are engaging in turns my stomach even more.

I'm of the same age as Trudeau and while I grew up in Ontario and yeah personally I knew in 2001 that it was wrong. But I also know first hand that around that time I talked more than one person out of doing something similar around Halloween. And from people that I would describe as smart and for the time progressive thinking in most ways. But so white and privileged, but we didn't even realize that description about ourselves at the time. I ran with a progressive group then and now. Well at least we thought we were very progressive then, but yeah we all had a lot of unexamined programmed crap built in.

What's my point.. I don't know. I do know I was dreading the apology and Trudeau didn't fuck that up. It could have been better sure. And gods yes he could be could be better in bunch of ways. I'd also love the NDP to be less of a shambles as a party so they could actually live up to a promising leader.

But I still think Trudeau is on balance more good than bad. And I really don't believe that Sheer even comes close to that balance.

Is Trudeau going to step down? I really can't imagine it. Should the party seriously consider pushing him out sometime after the election? Probably... Is this going to make the coming month even less palatable.. Yes.
posted by cirhosis at 2:05 AM on September 20 [7 favorites]


Waking up this morning and seeing the stream of stories from overseas on this, Canada has become a laughingstock overnight.

Aaaaaand that's just great.

Just as so many Americans get to feel embarrassed for their leader, we Canadians now get to wear this for the next I-don't-know-how-many years.

Thanks, bro.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:02 AM on September 20 [2 favorites]


Spanish newspapers have had to explain why blackfacing is considered racist in the US and Canada (and elsewhere).

Here, the closest thing we have had in this regard have been controversies during the Noche de Reyes (night of the three wise men), when parades are made showing the three wise men before they distribute their gifts to the children (it is our Santa Claus, although here both are now celebrated nights... consumerism).

When I was little (I am 50 now), it was normal for three wise men to be "celebrities" (this is relative, in a small town it could be a member of the council) dressed up. At that time it was quite difficult to see people of color in the street. With time and with the arrival of the immigration, normally the role of the black king is played by a person of color, but there are still cases in which it is not. But the controversy is not because it is considered racism, but because it is thought that, having people of color willing to act as King Baltasar, it makes no sense to put a white person in his place.
posted by samelborp at 6:27 AM on September 20 [1 favorite]


Walking Eagle News: Country’s white people divided on whether brownface okay or bad
“We’ve reached an unprecedented impasse on this issue,” said Lily Leblanc, lead spokesperson for white people.
posted by Kabanos at 7:08 AM on September 20 [9 favorites]


20-30 years ago I was a textbook tech libertarian who would have been right at home in Maxime Bernier's alt-right People's Party, had it existed back then. I voted for and supported Mike Harris's Ontario Tories. I was a blindly privileged idiot who held and espoused some ugly thoughts, and while I didn't personally do blackface or brown face I've been present at a few parties where others did and just laughed along. I didn't have a problem with it back then. I do now.

Now I have an NDP card in my wallet and fight hard against people like the idiot I used to be. I changed. People change. How hypocritical would it be for me to write off everyone with a shitty past? I just can't do it. I listened to Trudeau's apology yesterday and all I could think was that it's the same one I would have made.

I'm not a Liberal. Trudeau is not and has never been my choice for PM. I won't excuse what he did or diminish its importance or its outright shittiness. But I'm going to give him a chance to prove he's better because I got that chance.
posted by rocket88 at 8:10 AM on September 20 [9 favorites]


I think he deserves a chance to prove he's better, but we can have a higher standard for our PM than "learned from doing brownface as an adult", like someone who never wore brownface. Sometimes your history means you lose the chance to do something, even if you've changed.

You don't need to write him off as a human being to say that this is proof he isn't qualified to run a country. Lots of people aren't and are still perfectly fine human beings.
posted by jeather at 9:10 AM on September 20 [2 favorites]


I don’t think you understand how much of a different cultural/media bubble you’re in when you grow up in Qc during those years.

Separate from what attitudes in the past might have been, there is a question about how Quebecers today will react to this scandal, and whether or not it will affect voting choices in a province critical for JT's re-election.

The Globe and Mail:
In Quebec, past blackface incidents haven’t triggered as much outrage in the francophone majority population as in other provinces. Reactions from some Quebec Liberals mirrored that attitude.

Jacques Sigouin, campaign manager for William Morales, who is running in the riding of Drummond, said the photos were “an anodyne situation.” He said Mr. Morales, who was born in Colombia, had felt no anguish about the revelations. “We even laughed about it, a bit,” Mr. Sigouin said in an interview. “We didn’t understand why there was such an uproar.”

Suburban and outlying areas are critical electoral battlegrounds in Quebec, where the majority of seats are located in predominantly white, francophone areas. Mr. Morales’s riding of Drummond is midway between Montreal and Quebec City. Its main municipality, Drummondville, has a 98-per-cent francophone population. “For us, in Drummondville, this has so little impact, so little impact,” Mr. Sigouin said.
posted by Kabanos at 10:24 AM on September 20 [2 favorites]


Yeah I don't know how many solitudes Canada has these days (maybe 4? 10?) but for sure this is a big "rien de burger" in Quebec.
posted by GuyZero at 10:50 AM on September 20


I'm in Quebec! I haven't heard anyone except one other Extremely Online friend (who mostly shares my politics) talk about it, though.
posted by jeather at 11:32 AM on September 20


No one at my work talking about it (Ontario). Might even win Trudeau a few points, kind of thing that worked so well for the Fords here.
posted by rodlymight at 11:56 AM on September 20


Yeah I don't know how many solitudes Canada has these days (maybe 4? 10?) but for sure this is a big "rien de burger" in Quebec.

We're also a full month away from election day. That's one hell of a long time in a federal election campaign.

Oh god a whole 'nother month. Halp.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:24 PM on September 20


Trudeau says he never told candidate-vetting committee about blackface because he was embarrassed
"I never talked about this. Quite frankly, I was embarrassed," Trudeau told reporters in Winnipeg Thursday. "It was not something that represents the person I've become, the leader I try to be and it was really embarrassing."

Trudeau offered no further details on how he navigated the party's process for vetting candidates or how he continued to hide his embarrassing past.
posted by bonehead at 1:22 PM on September 20 [2 favorites]


rodlymight: Might even win Trudeau a few points, kind of thing that worked so well for the Fords here.

I'm pretty sure it only works that way if you don't apologize and are instead aggressively obnoxious about it.

Scheer is trying mushy non-responses when asked if he'll apologize for comments he made about same-sex marriage in the past. We'll see if that works for him, or if Bernier can steal some of the asshole vote by being an asshole out loud.
posted by clawsoon at 1:45 PM on September 20 [2 favorites]


I'm pretty sure it only works that way if you don't apologize and are instead aggressively obnoxious about it.

JT's apologies will hurt him more than anything else.
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 3:30 PM on September 20


JT's apologies will hurt him more than anything else.

With the asshole demographic, yes. There were people on the radio here in Toronto, though - where he is going to have to hold some tough ridings - who were disappointed he did it and glad he apologized.
posted by clawsoon at 4:00 PM on September 20 [2 favorites]


Hopefully he will lose his seat and trigger a leadership race.

Perhaps Operation Black Vote Canada will have some nominees.
posted by chapps at 9:41 AM on September 21


Also...
I'm for Singh all the way.

He has centred systemic racism from the beginning... I was shocked and thrilled that in his speech upon becoming NDP leader he spoke about police carding and his own experiences being profiled.
posted by chapps at 9:47 AM on September 21 [2 favorites]


Walking Eagle News: This is not us says country where thats totally them.
posted by chapps at 10:14 AM on September 21 [3 favorites]


So the Washington Post just published a piece by Naheed Nenshi. WaPo links are paywalled, so here's the last few paragraphs of what he had to say.

I’m Calgary’s Muslim mayor. We can learn from Trudeau’s ‘brownface’ moment. Canadians — and Americans — can’t just stand up for our values when it’s convenient:

Jagmeet Singh, a lawyer, is running for prime minister as leader of a national party but, because he wears a turban, could not serve as a judge in Quebec. I, as a Muslim man, could hold any job I want, but under this law, a Muslim woman who covers with a headscarf cannot. Muslim men who wear long beards could claim it’s just a nod to hipster-dom, and be free and clear, but Orthodox Jewish men with the same beard or a yarmulke cannot. Montreal’s mayor can hold any role, but the leader of her opposition, who wears a kippa, cannot. They’ve stood together against the law.


It’s all flagrantly unconstitutional, but the province of Quebec used the “notwithstanding clause,” a constitutional override provision (ironically, like multiculturalism, a gift from the tenure of the first Prime Minster Trudeau) to protect itself from legal challenge.

What’s funny about all of this is that various national leaders have mumbled platitudes about how much they dislike this law, but also haven’t committed to doing anything about it — including the candidate who wears a turban. Conservative Party leader Andrew Scheer leans on the notion of “provincial jurisdiction” in a way that echoes of the language of “states’ rights” in the United States.

Even though the federal government could restrict Quebec’s financing or use its legal power to enjoin the provincial legislation, our federal leaders so far haven’t demonstrated the courage to do so. They’re hardly even talking about it. The law is popular in Quebec, and among others in the country, too. In an election year, they must be thinking, why risk losing those votes?

I‘m grateful every day that I’m Canadian — that my parents chose this country on the other side of the world. There’s no better place to have these conversations. But we have to have them.

We cannot stand on moral high ground calling out leaders for offensive things they did, years ago, if we’re not also willing to stand up against the racist and discriminatory behavior that’s right in front of our faces in 2019. We cannot choose our values a la carte when they benefit us — we need to be all-in, all the time.

Canada, like any other country, isn’t black and white. It’s many-hued. Sometimes, it’s brown. We’re a welcoming, diverse country, but we recognize that we have work to do. Now, let’s use Justin Trudeau’s old blunders to think about the links between individual action and real justice.

posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:58 PM on September 22 [6 favorites]


Poll wonkery from Abacus on the black-face scandals: ELECTION POLL: A SENSATIONAL WEEK, YET A TIGHT RACE REMAINS
[...]
3. Justin Trudeau’s personal ratings have slipped. His positives are down 4-points, and his negatives are up 3. At the same time, Andrew Scheer, Jagmeet Singh and Elizabeth May have all seen deterioration in their ratings as well. Ms. May’s numbers are the worst we have seen for her since March of this year. Mr.Scheer’s positives have dropped 3-points, and his negatives have hit a new high at 39%.

[...Most people ~85% had heard of the story]

9. Asked how they reacted to the story, 42% said it didn’t really bother them, 34% said they didn’t like it but felt Mr. Trudeau apologized properly and felt they could move on, and 24% said they were truly offended and it changed their view of Mr. Trudeau for the worse. Worth noting is that of that 24%, two-thirds are Conservative voters.
So the effect on voters mostly reflected partisan leanings, though with the race so tight, a statistical heat still, a small push either way might be the difference. Even the week lost to the scandal for the Liberal campaign may be enough to kill their chances. I can't see how we'll have anything but a minority parliament this time though.
posted by bonehead at 6:59 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]


24% said they were truly offended and it changed their view of Mr. Trudeau for the worse. Worth noting is that of that 24%, two-thirds are Conservative voters.

Oh, please, I read the comments on CBC.ca/news. Conservative voters could not possibly think less of Trudeau than they already did. They're just answering the poll that way because it's the most negative option available to them.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:18 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]


Worth noting is that of that 24%, two-thirds are Conservative voters.

Yeah, my impression is that for Tory voters, it's an extra cudgel to beat Trudeau with, a handy one which allows them to dress up their regular biases in moral superiority.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:25 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]


Singh's drop in polling numbers is interesting/disturbing. He's the only one who carried himself with dignity in this shameful mess. If his numbers *drop*, is it because a) voters are scared of Scheer and are going to the Liberals, b) voters think he's taking this whole brownface thing too personally, or c) both?
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:34 AM on September 23 [1 favorite]


I think the largest effect from the past week is the potential for reduced voter turn out, particularly for the Liberals. Leaders with low positives and high negatives often have trouble getting voters to cast a ballot. In my opinion that's also more of a problem on the left than the right, given the age differences between those opinions.

I think the black-face revelations have hurt the Liberals quite a lot this week, mostly in terms of risking their voters staying home. That's built in to most of the better poll models, but its still tricky to get right. I think voter suppression through negative ads and constant "scandals" was a major reason for Clinton's loss in 2016. Trudeau, with real skeletons instead of fantasy ones, will also be vulnerable to that sort of attack.
posted by bonehead at 7:47 AM on September 23 [2 favorites]


I know it's early but the only lawn signs in my neighbourhood are for the Conservative candidate. I don't think anyone has come to our door yet to ask to put a sign up either. My riding used to be solidly Liberal but it went Conservative in 2011 and Provincially went PC last year so I could easily see it going Conservative this time around.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:22 PM on September 23


What I've noticed in my riding (Liberal incumbent Kent Hehr surrounded by a sea of blue) is that all the Liberal signs that were there 2 weeks ago are still standing. And I still haven't seen a single NDP sign.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 8:02 PM on September 23


I live in Chrystia Freeland's riding these days and the only signs that I can recall seeing are for the Green candidate.
posted by Fish Sauce at 5:59 AM on September 24


I live in Hamilton Centre, where the longtime NDP incumbent decided not to run again. There are a lot of signs for the new NDP candidate, but both Singh and Trudeau seem to be spending a lot of time in Hamilton, making me wonder if the riding is actually in play.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:20 AM on September 24


My riding (in Calgary) was close last time , but it's a new Liberal candidate this time around. I've seen plenty of signs for the incumbent, and some signs for the Green, but nothing else (there's no NDP candidate, and I don't expect the Rhinos or the M-L party to really have signage; I am intrigued by the seeming lack of PPC). Interesting to me is that very few of them are on people's lawns; they all seem to be alongside the roads. Nobody has come to the door either - no literature drops, nothing. Not sure what, if anything, it all means (outside of the fact that Calgary is not really in play at all, with the possible exception of Kent Hehr's riding). Mr. Webber (whose sole claim to anything for the last session is a bill making organ donation easier) got into a rather heated argument with us over immigration the last time he showed up on our doorstep, and I'd be happy to give him the gears again, though I'm pretty sure he's flagged our house as one to stay away from.

I honestly don't know what to do with this election - I'm unhappy with all the parties in general (deeply in some cases) and would like to actually meet a candidate and see what they seem like personally.
posted by nubs at 8:19 AM on September 24


The good news for JT is that no PPC candidate has been vetted at all. (Or the vetting process required a history of racist, homphobic, transphobic statements to be considered for candidacy.)
posted by jacquilynne at 1:42 PM on September 25


VICE: Justin Trudeau, Up the Creek Without a Paddle, Tries Canoeing Back to His Reputation
"Reeling from his biggest scandal yet Trudeau deployed some familiar weapons: a canoe and his tight ass."
posted by Kabanos at 11:27 AM on September 26 [1 favorite]


Playing the hits, indeed. But if he thinks that marching in the climate strike is going to reclaim his status as an environmentalist, I have news for Mr. Pipeline.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:17 AM on September 27


New Canadian election thread.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:25 AM on September 27


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