Declaration of the Establishment of the Provisional Government of HK
October 4, 2019 9:50 AM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- goodnewsfortheinsane
Is that link working for others?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:01 AM on October 4, 2019
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:01 AM on October 4, 2019
"Kwan Kung Temple is a Telegram channel organised by a group of committed Hong Kongers."
posted by adamrice at 10:07 AM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by adamrice at 10:07 AM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
It's basically a volunteer news and translation service, as far as I can tell.
They are reposting the announcement from the source link at the top of the page. I don't know who posted it originally.
posted by col_pogo at 10:09 AM on October 4, 2019
They are reposting the announcement from the source link at the top of the page. I don't know who posted it originally.
posted by col_pogo at 10:09 AM on October 4, 2019
Link is hosed - anyone have the text?
posted by Paladin1138 at 10:20 AM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Paladin1138 at 10:20 AM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Having lived through this the first time, my worry is, "Will they get away with Tienanmen 2.0?" Also, probably not the first time, but the first time I was old enough to be aware.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:25 AM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:25 AM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Link is hosed - anyone have the text?
Works for me now. Not sure what else might be appropriate, I put it on pastebin here.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:05 AM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Works for me now. Not sure what else might be appropriate, I put it on pastebin here.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:05 AM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Some of that text seems very familiar somehow.
posted by octothorpe at 11:40 AM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 11:40 AM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah... I’ve noticed a fairly direct attempt by many HK protestors to get the US on side, and the language used here is another example.
posted by adrianhon at 11:52 AM on October 4, 2019
posted by adrianhon at 11:52 AM on October 4, 2019
Whether it’s calculation or inspiration or both, I can’t help but tear up reading those familiar words. I would venture the Hong Kong protestors understand their meaning far better than a good number of Americans at the moment.
posted by sallybrown at 12:14 PM on October 4, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 12:14 PM on October 4, 2019 [9 favorites]
I would venture the Hong Kong protestors understand their meaning far better than a good number of Americans at the moment.
I mean, theyre literally waving American flags as a symbol of their commitment to freedom.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 1:09 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
I mean, theyre literally waving American flags as a symbol of their commitment to freedom.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 1:09 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Related: Hong Kong leader to ban face masks as she activates colonial-era powers
posted by anthill at 2:47 PM on October 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
The emergency regulations ordinance was introduced in 1922 so colonial authorities could break up strikes paralysing the ports. It allows the government to make any regulations it considers in the public interest, if it decides the city faces “an occasion of emergency or public danger”.Without a face mask, it's you vs. the image recognition library and secret police.
posted by anthill at 2:47 PM on October 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
This is a hard thing to see. Watching the HK movement from afar has been a lot, and seeing it play out in local politics as well between pro-HK and pro-China activists here has kept it feeling very relevant. When it started, there was something of a broad left support for the movement - it's easy to be stirred up by the sparks of revolution elsewhere.
But this feels like a death knell for leftist support. Obviously the tankies have been howling the whole time about the innocence of the righteous HK police and the slathering violence of the bourgeois protestors or whatever, showing their true colours etc, but everyone else has agreed that while we do not take most criticism of the CCP at face value, neither do we think they're nice or it wise to focus on criticising spontaneous mass movements for imperfect politics. After all, if you only wait for purely socialist revolutions, you'll never see national liberation movements.
The American flags have been present the whole time, but now it's gotten to the point where everyone I know has disengaged and/or withdrawn support. No-one wants to shill for another CIA regime change operation. Only the Trots are so uncritical in their support for such movements that they will endorse pretty much anyone. Obviously the HK government response is disgusting, obviously the average protestor is not some "crisis actor" or the like, but nonetheless with the movement's proliferation of US symbols and the begging for US intervention, it's chased much of the left here away.
posted by Acid Communist at 3:16 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
But this feels like a death knell for leftist support. Obviously the tankies have been howling the whole time about the innocence of the righteous HK police and the slathering violence of the bourgeois protestors or whatever, showing their true colours etc, but everyone else has agreed that while we do not take most criticism of the CCP at face value, neither do we think they're nice or it wise to focus on criticising spontaneous mass movements for imperfect politics. After all, if you only wait for purely socialist revolutions, you'll never see national liberation movements.
The American flags have been present the whole time, but now it's gotten to the point where everyone I know has disengaged and/or withdrawn support. No-one wants to shill for another CIA regime change operation. Only the Trots are so uncritical in their support for such movements that they will endorse pretty much anyone. Obviously the HK government response is disgusting, obviously the average protestor is not some "crisis actor" or the like, but nonetheless with the movement's proliferation of US symbols and the begging for US intervention, it's chased much of the left here away.
posted by Acid Communist at 3:16 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
> another CIA regime change operation
Why would one believe the HK protests are part of a CIA operation? I mean, I can see how the US benefits, and some people are flying American flags. Is there more?
Also, how does 'regime change' describe a protest about repealing a change in the regime (the deportation law) and "an independent probe into the use of force by police; amnesty for arrested protesters; a halt to categorising the protests as riots; and the implementation of universal suffrage"?
posted by anthill at 3:35 PM on October 4, 2019 [6 favorites]
Why would one believe the HK protests are part of a CIA operation? I mean, I can see how the US benefits, and some people are flying American flags. Is there more?
Also, how does 'regime change' describe a protest about repealing a change in the regime (the deportation law) and "an independent probe into the use of force by police; amnesty for arrested protesters; a halt to categorising the protests as riots; and the implementation of universal suffrage"?
posted by anthill at 3:35 PM on October 4, 2019 [6 favorites]
Obviously the HK government response is disgusting, obviously the average protestor is not some "crisis actor" or the like, but nonetheless with the movement's proliferation of US symbols and the begging for US intervention, it's chased much of the left here away.
Of course they’re begging for intervention, they are a protest movement up against the massive military, economic, and social power of China and the US has spent our history bragging about how we support freedom. Now I wonder if there were French leftists somewhere turning up their noses at the American revolutionaries begging for their help in 1776, “oh how gauche.”
posted by sallybrown at 4:15 PM on October 4, 2019 [14 favorites]
Of course they’re begging for intervention, they are a protest movement up against the massive military, economic, and social power of China and the US has spent our history bragging about how we support freedom. Now I wonder if there were French leftists somewhere turning up their noses at the American revolutionaries begging for their help in 1776, “oh how gauche.”
posted by sallybrown at 4:15 PM on October 4, 2019 [14 favorites]
It's not clear to me how trying to make this into some sort of weird proxy war Korea/Vietnam/HK trifecta helps any regular people in HK. More open US involvement will mean more open CCP involvement. Getting the US involved doesn't seem likely to either de-escalate or resolve matters.
Perhaps I go to far saying "regime change" but I do know I can't argue against it effectively either. Not when the only comments from protestors that ever get column space are demands that the US get involved, "liberate" them from the CCP, when people start writing declarations that echo US political writings that seem perfectly targeted to fire up the large group of Americans who can't seem to see a political situation elsewhere without reaching for the USMC.
Not when I was served an ad by Google last night telling me that its not HK vs China, it's the whole free world vs the CCP. When people declare HK's legal status to be a form of blatant imperialism, on the level of East Germany. When national media is constantly spreading sinophobic scare stories about the CCP's influence here and they're filming on my campus to prove that student politics are under the CCP's sway.
I'm not sure how to explain this, because so few people here seem to have any sort of ingrained mistrust of the US. What would you think if the Remain marches in Britain had waved the Chinese flag and asked China to lean on Britain politically and economically? Or... Russia? If y'all started waving Russian flags as part of Black Lives Matter? It wouldn't make BLM any less of a legitimate movement with legitimate complaints, but I think it might provoke a similar cognitive dissonance to what I feel here.
After all, Russia and the US are both places which over a hundred years ago had big, world-shaking revolutions and civil wars in the name of freedom, they'd be understandable symbols for the oppressed to take up, if you completely ignore their conduct since.
posted by Acid Communist at 4:20 PM on October 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
Perhaps I go to far saying "regime change" but I do know I can't argue against it effectively either. Not when the only comments from protestors that ever get column space are demands that the US get involved, "liberate" them from the CCP, when people start writing declarations that echo US political writings that seem perfectly targeted to fire up the large group of Americans who can't seem to see a political situation elsewhere without reaching for the USMC.
Not when I was served an ad by Google last night telling me that its not HK vs China, it's the whole free world vs the CCP. When people declare HK's legal status to be a form of blatant imperialism, on the level of East Germany. When national media is constantly spreading sinophobic scare stories about the CCP's influence here and they're filming on my campus to prove that student politics are under the CCP's sway.
I'm not sure how to explain this, because so few people here seem to have any sort of ingrained mistrust of the US. What would you think if the Remain marches in Britain had waved the Chinese flag and asked China to lean on Britain politically and economically? Or... Russia? If y'all started waving Russian flags as part of Black Lives Matter? It wouldn't make BLM any less of a legitimate movement with legitimate complaints, but I think it might provoke a similar cognitive dissonance to what I feel here.
After all, Russia and the US are both places which over a hundred years ago had big, world-shaking revolutions and civil wars in the name of freedom, they'd be understandable symbols for the oppressed to take up, if you completely ignore their conduct since.
posted by Acid Communist at 4:20 PM on October 4, 2019 [5 favorites]
I do see what you mean, plus I think we can all see that the US would have selfish interests here in addition to any purely pro-democracy feelings, but there are a lot of stops on the train between “do nothing” and “military intervention.” Plus, the connection between a populist-driven democratic movement and a US flag seems clearer than something like Remain UK and China or BLM and Russia. Even if you see the American Revolution as a Disney-fied fairy tale, it’s not confusing why the HK protestors would wave an American flag—it’s a sign of a revolutionary group who succeeded in the past, defines themselves by that history, and now might offer the protestors some help.
posted by sallybrown at 4:31 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 4:31 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
They're waving the flag to Trump. Even if I was to accept that in the past America has acted in a way defined by its revolutionary history, and that purely pro-democratic feelings have ever been relevant to US foreign policy, that would still be a weird call.
And again, the recent history of US intervention is not one of spreading freedom, it's of bloodshed and torture in the interests of the ruling class. I don't know why they would be looking to France in '44 instead of Iraq or Korea for what the US showing up to help looks like. And I know it doesn't have to work out that way. But no leftist I know will side with the US over China, and while it's framed like that, it'll probably stay like that.
posted by Acid Communist at 5:10 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
And again, the recent history of US intervention is not one of spreading freedom, it's of bloodshed and torture in the interests of the ruling class. I don't know why they would be looking to France in '44 instead of Iraq or Korea for what the US showing up to help looks like. And I know it doesn't have to work out that way. But no leftist I know will side with the US over China, and while it's framed like that, it'll probably stay like that.
posted by Acid Communist at 5:10 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
They're waving the flag to Trump. Even if I was to accept that in the past America has acted in a way defined by its revolutionary history, and that purely pro-democratic feelings have ever been relevant to US foreign policy, that would still be a weird call.
Look. I live in Hong Kong. I don’t like the Trump stuff either, but if this snotty academic American Left doesn’t recognise desperation when they see it then who the Hell are they? I may personally have a view on the productiveness of the demonstrators but anyone can see the raw and genuine pain behind it. They don’t like Trump, they just want help, from anyone at this point, and the enemy of my enemy, etc. Revolution isn’t a theoretical act, nor perfect in its forms.
posted by frumiousb at 5:22 PM on October 4, 2019 [19 favorites]
Look. I live in Hong Kong. I don’t like the Trump stuff either, but if this snotty academic American Left doesn’t recognise desperation when they see it then who the Hell are they? I may personally have a view on the productiveness of the demonstrators but anyone can see the raw and genuine pain behind it. They don’t like Trump, they just want help, from anyone at this point, and the enemy of my enemy, etc. Revolution isn’t a theoretical act, nor perfect in its forms.
posted by frumiousb at 5:22 PM on October 4, 2019 [19 favorites]
They're waving the flag to Trump. Even if I was to accept that in the past America has acted in a way defined by its revolutionary history, and that purely pro-democratic feelings have ever been relevant to US foreign policy, that would still be a weird call.
They’re waving the flag to the nation most likely to be able to challenge China, which is also at least vaguely democratic. If they’re looking for foreign allies who can challenge their current regime, who would you suggest they look to? Who even nominally shares their ideals and have any ability to get China to take notice.
(This is not to say that I think the Trump administration is likely to actually help them. Much less likely than any prior administration in recent history. But they’re not exactly spoiled for choice here.)
But no leftist I know will side with the US over China, and while it's framed like that, it'll probably stay like that.
...It’s entirely possible that the leftists I know are somehow insufficiently left. (I don’t hang with tankies.) And God knows the Trump admin are a fucking nightmare. But very few of the leftists I know are going to support the explicitly authoritarian regime in this circumstance.
posted by a device for making your enemy change his mind at 5:40 PM on October 4, 2019 [7 favorites]
They’re waving the flag to the nation most likely to be able to challenge China, which is also at least vaguely democratic. If they’re looking for foreign allies who can challenge their current regime, who would you suggest they look to? Who even nominally shares their ideals and have any ability to get China to take notice.
(This is not to say that I think the Trump administration is likely to actually help them. Much less likely than any prior administration in recent history. But they’re not exactly spoiled for choice here.)
But no leftist I know will side with the US over China, and while it's framed like that, it'll probably stay like that.
...It’s entirely possible that the leftists I know are somehow insufficiently left. (I don’t hang with tankies.) And God knows the Trump admin are a fucking nightmare. But very few of the leftists I know are going to support the explicitly authoritarian regime in this circumstance.
posted by a device for making your enemy change his mind at 5:40 PM on October 4, 2019 [7 favorites]
China is just finishing up its 70th anniversary of the CCP, it has been an extremely carefully stage managed event. I am pretty sure that the gloves will be off, sorry to say, pretty soon.
posted by Meatbomb at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatbomb at 5:47 PM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
They're not academics, they're not Americans, but a lot of them have fairly intimate experiences of American imperialism. And the caveat people give me is that they think maybe they're too close to Syria on this, they're seeing parallels where there aren't any. But they're also worried about the US supporting say, the most right-wing among the protestors a la with Islamist terrorists and seeding decades of violence.
I feel really conflicted about this. There's not any easy consensus among the people I know. No-one's questioning the raw and genuine pain, it's absolutely evident. In fact, that's a key point. The individuals may be great, but the movement can still be cooked. Those are my words. Going back to the minutes of a discussion on this,
"Men (sic) make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past."
and "the outcomes and effects of social movements are far divorced from the aggregate intentions of a particular group of people".
stand out as perhaps better ways of saying the same thing. The real and legitimate grievances of protestors do not translate well to the actual things that will happen as a consequence of asking for US involvement, nor directly to the shape and character of the movement that grows from those grievances. As with Syria, the problem is not that we like Assad, it's that in our analysis, US involvement always makes things significantly worse.
With all of this, as long as people are coming with a perspective of "America nominally good, China nominally bad" I don't expect them to agree with me. You have to at least imagine they're both about as bad. The US is nominally a representative democracy, but it's blatantly obvious that there is rule by the powerful and it's mostly about grinding the citizenry into dust for profit. China is nominally a consultative democracy, and it's blatantly obvious that there is rule by the powerful, and your kids might have a higher standard of living than you, even if still being ground to dust.
posted by Acid Communist at 5:50 PM on October 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
I feel really conflicted about this. There's not any easy consensus among the people I know. No-one's questioning the raw and genuine pain, it's absolutely evident. In fact, that's a key point. The individuals may be great, but the movement can still be cooked. Those are my words. Going back to the minutes of a discussion on this,
"Men (sic) make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past."
and "the outcomes and effects of social movements are far divorced from the aggregate intentions of a particular group of people".
stand out as perhaps better ways of saying the same thing. The real and legitimate grievances of protestors do not translate well to the actual things that will happen as a consequence of asking for US involvement, nor directly to the shape and character of the movement that grows from those grievances. As with Syria, the problem is not that we like Assad, it's that in our analysis, US involvement always makes things significantly worse.
With all of this, as long as people are coming with a perspective of "America nominally good, China nominally bad" I don't expect them to agree with me. You have to at least imagine they're both about as bad. The US is nominally a representative democracy, but it's blatantly obvious that there is rule by the powerful and it's mostly about grinding the citizenry into dust for profit. China is nominally a consultative democracy, and it's blatantly obvious that there is rule by the powerful, and your kids might have a higher standard of living than you, even if still being ground to dust.
posted by Acid Communist at 5:50 PM on October 4, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm strongly against asking any foreign state currently in existence for help with your revolution, outside of if Cuba wants to send their doctors. Or you won't have a revolution, you'll have a regime change, in that there will be a new regime, and it will be the blatantly pro-US one instead of the blatantly pro-China one.
Presumably none of these protestors want a new regime. They want a truly democratic state, not to swap one ruling class for another. Asking for US intervention is just asking Google and Facebook to administer your social credit scores instead of the state.
posted by Acid Communist at 5:54 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Presumably none of these protestors want a new regime. They want a truly democratic state, not to swap one ruling class for another. Asking for US intervention is just asking Google and Facebook to administer your social credit scores instead of the state.
posted by Acid Communist at 5:54 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
Okay, sorry. Australian then. Should not have made assumptions. But it still sounds like a POV pretty far removed from the reality of this particular moment.
posted by frumiousb at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by frumiousb at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm strongly against asking any foreign state currently in existence for help with your revolution, outside of if Cuba wants to send their doctors. Or you won't have a revolution, you'll have a regime change, in that there will be a new regime, and it will be the blatantly pro-US one instead of the blatantly pro-China one.
That is very easy to say when you’re not the one facing down the collective might of the PLA with nothing but an umbrella and a black tshirt.
They have no hope of winning. They know this. They’ve watched more than 800 of their compatriots arrested. The cops have been beating them and tear gassing them. They’ve started using live ammunition on them. There’s good evidence that many of those cops are PLA soldiers, given that they mysteriously don’t seem to understand Cantonese and seem quite happy to beat and gas people who are doing nothing but chanting or walking.
They had no hope in the first place - young people in HK don’t feel like they have a future. That’s why they started protesting. They have even less now, and they’re still fighting.
So what do you expect them to do? Just die quietly? Because asking for help is somehow ideologically impure?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2019 [14 favorites]
That is very easy to say when you’re not the one facing down the collective might of the PLA with nothing but an umbrella and a black tshirt.
They have no hope of winning. They know this. They’ve watched more than 800 of their compatriots arrested. The cops have been beating them and tear gassing them. They’ve started using live ammunition on them. There’s good evidence that many of those cops are PLA soldiers, given that they mysteriously don’t seem to understand Cantonese and seem quite happy to beat and gas people who are doing nothing but chanting or walking.
They had no hope in the first place - young people in HK don’t feel like they have a future. That’s why they started protesting. They have even less now, and they’re still fighting.
So what do you expect them to do? Just die quietly? Because asking for help is somehow ideologically impure?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2019 [14 favorites]
I really don't know what they should do. I think it's really hard. But I don't see that asking for US intervention as merely "ideologically impure", I see it as something that will downright guarantee that the violence and suffering only gets significantly worse.
If someone has the game plan for how the US can ride to the rescue here, I'd love to see it. But I see US involvement as the fastest way to turn 800 in prison into 8 million in camps of some sort.
posted by Acid Communist at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
If someone has the game plan for how the US can ride to the rescue here, I'd love to see it. But I see US involvement as the fastest way to turn 800 in prison into 8 million in camps of some sort.
posted by Acid Communist at 7:58 PM on October 4, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm going to trust that the residents of what was up until 1997 a straight-up colonial possession do in fact have an informed and nuanced grasp of issues like colonialism and Western intervention and that their decision to engage in this particular symbolism has been thought through.
But no leftist I know will side with the US over China, and while it's framed like that, it'll probably stay like that.
I'm pretty sure no Hong Kong protester with even the most basic grasp of how American leftists think expects any help from that quarter, or would imagine that that help would be of any use whatsoever if it came. Whoever they're talking to, it is neither the sort of people who cheer Castro and Maduro on the one hand, or the CIA on the other.
And I don't get where this "regime change" scaremongering is coming from, either. Even in the most febrile Left-wing fantasy version of US foreign policy, the US launches coups in small countries with weak regimes that don't possess nuclear weapons. Foreign interference on the level of regime change in China isn't even possible, and the whole point of this escalating nightmare (from the CCP's point of view) is that Hong Kong is part of China.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:59 PM on October 4, 2019 [12 favorites]
But no leftist I know will side with the US over China, and while it's framed like that, it'll probably stay like that.
I'm pretty sure no Hong Kong protester with even the most basic grasp of how American leftists think expects any help from that quarter, or would imagine that that help would be of any use whatsoever if it came. Whoever they're talking to, it is neither the sort of people who cheer Castro and Maduro on the one hand, or the CIA on the other.
And I don't get where this "regime change" scaremongering is coming from, either. Even in the most febrile Left-wing fantasy version of US foreign policy, the US launches coups in small countries with weak regimes that don't possess nuclear weapons. Foreign interference on the level of regime change in China isn't even possible, and the whole point of this escalating nightmare (from the CCP's point of view) is that Hong Kong is part of China.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:59 PM on October 4, 2019 [12 favorites]
If someone has the game plan for how the US can ride to the rescue here, I'd love to see it. But I see US involvement as the fastest way to turn 800 in prison into 8 million in camps of some sort.
While you spin these bizarre fever dreams, China is literally running concentration camps and filling them with religious minorities and political dissidents at this fucking moment.
The last time anything like this happened, the PLA ran down peaceful protestors with tanks and gunned down thousands of people.
The US is a hot mess right now, but can you not see the difference? Do you think HKers can’t? Their only chance is to keep international attention on them.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2019 [17 favorites]
While you spin these bizarre fever dreams, China is literally running concentration camps and filling them with religious minorities and political dissidents at this fucking moment.
The last time anything like this happened, the PLA ran down peaceful protestors with tanks and gunned down thousands of people.
The US is a hot mess right now, but can you not see the difference? Do you think HKers can’t? Their only chance is to keep international attention on them.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2019 [17 favorites]
The last time anything like this happened, the PLA ran down peaceful protestors with tanks and gunned down thousands of people.
And if anyone can explain to me how waving US flags makes this less, not more likely to happen again, I'd love to hear it.
posted by Acid Communist at 8:51 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
And if anyone can explain to me how waving US flags makes this less, not more likely to happen again, I'd love to hear it.
posted by Acid Communist at 8:51 PM on October 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
You have to at least imagine they're both about as bad.
The protesters in Hong Kong seem to disagree. You can, I suppose, argue that's only because they've swallowed the USA's propaganda more readily than China's propaganda, but I find that answers to wide-scale phenomenon that require you to believe a very large group of people are all more gullible, more naive, and/or just plain stupider than you yourself are, are usually misleading, at best, and just plain wrong most of the time.
If someone has the game plan for how the US can ride to the rescue here, I'd love to see it. But I see US involvement as the fastest way to turn 800 in prison into 8 million in camps of some sort.
The fastest way to turn 800 in prison into 8 million in camps of some sort is for the rest of the world to stop paying attention to what's going on in Hong Kong. The CCP, as others have noted upthread, goes to great lengths to manage its image. Heck, I'd argue that a lot of the "explicit authoritarianism" that people see as evident in China and absent in the USA can be chalked up to the CCP trying to forcefully control its image while much of the US's ruling elite doesn't really give a shit if everyone thinks they're monsters so long as they still get what they want.
Thus, the Hong Kong protesters best hope is to keep as much attention as possible on what they're doing, because what they're doing makes China look bad. The worse they can make China look, the better. The more eyeballs they can get on what they're doing, the better. If they can make it appear like it might escalate into something that will make China look even worse or draw even more eyeballs, even better! If waving American flags and invoking the US Declaration of Independence accomplishes all three of those things then why not? They're not hoping the CIA will smuggle them guns and turn their city into (more of) a warzone, they're just hoping to make the cost (to the CCP's image) of "controlling Hong Kong" higher than the CCP is willing to pay. Would the CCP surrender a city to avoid having another Tiananmen Square, or something even worse, haunting it for decades? I don't know, but the HK protesters seem to be gambling on "yes".
posted by mstokes650 at 9:03 PM on October 4, 2019 [11 favorites]
The protesters in Hong Kong seem to disagree. You can, I suppose, argue that's only because they've swallowed the USA's propaganda more readily than China's propaganda, but I find that answers to wide-scale phenomenon that require you to believe a very large group of people are all more gullible, more naive, and/or just plain stupider than you yourself are, are usually misleading, at best, and just plain wrong most of the time.
If someone has the game plan for how the US can ride to the rescue here, I'd love to see it. But I see US involvement as the fastest way to turn 800 in prison into 8 million in camps of some sort.
The fastest way to turn 800 in prison into 8 million in camps of some sort is for the rest of the world to stop paying attention to what's going on in Hong Kong. The CCP, as others have noted upthread, goes to great lengths to manage its image. Heck, I'd argue that a lot of the "explicit authoritarianism" that people see as evident in China and absent in the USA can be chalked up to the CCP trying to forcefully control its image while much of the US's ruling elite doesn't really give a shit if everyone thinks they're monsters so long as they still get what they want.
Thus, the Hong Kong protesters best hope is to keep as much attention as possible on what they're doing, because what they're doing makes China look bad. The worse they can make China look, the better. The more eyeballs they can get on what they're doing, the better. If they can make it appear like it might escalate into something that will make China look even worse or draw even more eyeballs, even better! If waving American flags and invoking the US Declaration of Independence accomplishes all three of those things then why not? They're not hoping the CIA will smuggle them guns and turn their city into (more of) a warzone, they're just hoping to make the cost (to the CCP's image) of "controlling Hong Kong" higher than the CCP is willing to pay. Would the CCP surrender a city to avoid having another Tiananmen Square, or something even worse, haunting it for decades? I don't know, but the HK protesters seem to be gambling on "yes".
posted by mstokes650 at 9:03 PM on October 4, 2019 [11 favorites]
Re: which is worse to the HK protestors: they're up against China right now. That's not surprising, what's surprising is all the people who are up against the US and yet think the grass can only be green on their side of the river.
But your explanation I can understand. I don't think that forcing this struggle to become China vs the US will have that restraining effect instead of aggravating issues, but I can see how it might happen. I do think gambling is a very appropriate term.
posted by Acid Communist at 9:22 PM on October 4, 2019
But your explanation I can understand. I don't think that forcing this struggle to become China vs the US will have that restraining effect instead of aggravating issues, but I can see how it might happen. I do think gambling is a very appropriate term.
posted by Acid Communist at 9:22 PM on October 4, 2019
ahahahahah I had NO IDEA people seriously actually thought or things like that except for like, puff pieces were they ere being cynical for pay. For fuck's sake, they're facing China which has massive gulags and has been through multiple repressions to destroy elites - who fled to Hong Kong and the existence of Hong Kong is the direct result of those, so everyone in Hong Kong comes from either refugee families from WW2, people fleeing the later revolution, people migrating out for economic and political freedom and everyone going through the massive shock of Britain saying "welllll, sorry but we'll just hand you over to China now, all those promises are broken", and then fighting for their few remaining freedoms for the next two decades as one of the world's tiniest quasi-nations against the global superpower....
Our press in Singapore is so very very restrained at the moment because everyone in power here is watching this like a hawk (the financial sector is delighted though because all the money has come streaming our way) and everyone is keeping their mouths shut because no-one wants to piss off China but we also - it's Hong Kong which is basically Singapore's angrier noisier siting.
China will start extraditing, rounding up and mass-killing protestors at some stage. They are not going to allow Hong Kong to be a democracy at their doorstop. The protestors are fighting for they should be waving flags of every nation that might give a fuck over economic ties with China, although who would? They're going to be murdered. They're incredibly brave, and I'm just so baffled at the thought that you can think this is some kind of dimwitted asian idiots led around by CIAs. Hong Kong people know what the hell they're doing. They know their history and their future.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:02 PM on October 4, 2019 [15 favorites]
Our press in Singapore is so very very restrained at the moment because everyone in power here is watching this like a hawk (the financial sector is delighted though because all the money has come streaming our way) and everyone is keeping their mouths shut because no-one wants to piss off China but we also - it's Hong Kong which is basically Singapore's angrier noisier siting.
China will start extraditing, rounding up and mass-killing protestors at some stage. They are not going to allow Hong Kong to be a democracy at their doorstop. The protestors are fighting for they should be waving flags of every nation that might give a fuck over economic ties with China, although who would? They're going to be murdered. They're incredibly brave, and I'm just so baffled at the thought that you can think this is some kind of dimwitted asian idiots led around by CIAs. Hong Kong people know what the hell they're doing. They know their history and their future.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:02 PM on October 4, 2019 [15 favorites]
I got snarked off enough to put my money where my mouth is and signed up to donate monthly to one of the choices at the Beyond Lennon Walls that invokeuse linked to in an earlier post.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:13 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:13 PM on October 4, 2019 [2 favorites]
They're incredibly brave, and I'm just so baffled at the thought that you can think this is some kind of dimwitted asian idiots led around by CIAs. Hong Kong people know what the hell they're doing. They know their history and their future.
This.
And I'm honestly just as baffled that you don't understand how academic and foolish the question of US vs China sounds at this moment in time. They can 100% understand the US is not necessarily ultimately better but also understand that Trump may be the only leader out there who *might* help them if they continue to keep pushing it into the press. He's just vain enough and enough into sabre rattling to actually do something-- buy them some time, whatever. Even using HK as a bargaining chip would be sufficient to buy more time. These aren't theorists who are thinking their way through political reform. These are kids fighting for their lives.
And there are no other options. What else do you propose they do? Are the damned Tankies showing up to fight for them? (I can't *believe* there are still Tankies left or that anyone takes them even remotely seriously but that probably just shows my age.)
posted by frumiousb at 10:49 PM on October 4, 2019 [7 favorites]
This.
And I'm honestly just as baffled that you don't understand how academic and foolish the question of US vs China sounds at this moment in time. They can 100% understand the US is not necessarily ultimately better but also understand that Trump may be the only leader out there who *might* help them if they continue to keep pushing it into the press. He's just vain enough and enough into sabre rattling to actually do something-- buy them some time, whatever. Even using HK as a bargaining chip would be sufficient to buy more time. These aren't theorists who are thinking their way through political reform. These are kids fighting for their lives.
And there are no other options. What else do you propose they do? Are the damned Tankies showing up to fight for them? (I can't *believe* there are still Tankies left or that anyone takes them even remotely seriously but that probably just shows my age.)
posted by frumiousb at 10:49 PM on October 4, 2019 [7 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Please don't turn this into All About The US. This is not a thread about how bad the US is. For folks who want to talk about the US we have plenty of other posts for that. Let's please redirect this back to the actual posted text and topic. Also, acid communist, you've made your feelings known repeatedly and have been dominating comments here by a wide margin, now please let the thread breathe and allow space for other participants to discuss without having to answer to you for some reason.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:25 AM on October 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:25 AM on October 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
A translated FB thread on what Hong Kongers envision, after reclaiming Hong Kong:
"I am a social worker! I want to make a big family, accepting people in need from ages 0-28. I see so many people who do not have warmth in their lives; it breaks my heart. I want to let them know that in this world, there are many people who care about them!"
"I want to be a freelance writer, defend Traditional Chinese and Cantonese."
“I want to teach at a university. I want to drive a mobile library to different districts, and recommend readings to residents, sharing access to knowledge with all. Injustice will always exist, so I also want to keep fighting to create a better world.”
From the (original FB)user: “Remember this feeling. Our tireless efforts today are all aimed at this: creating the best possible life. When you feel despair, like you are ready to give up, think about our lives after we win this fight.”
This is the original FB thread - the translate function seems to be fairly decent from what I can tell, but I have not had any formal Chinese education, so no guarantees of its accuracy.
posted by toastyk at 10:01 AM on October 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
"I am a social worker! I want to make a big family, accepting people in need from ages 0-28. I see so many people who do not have warmth in their lives; it breaks my heart. I want to let them know that in this world, there are many people who care about them!"
"I want to be a freelance writer, defend Traditional Chinese and Cantonese."
“I want to teach at a university. I want to drive a mobile library to different districts, and recommend readings to residents, sharing access to knowledge with all. Injustice will always exist, so I also want to keep fighting to create a better world.”
From the (original FB)user: “Remember this feeling. Our tireless efforts today are all aimed at this: creating the best possible life. When you feel despair, like you are ready to give up, think about our lives after we win this fight.”
This is the original FB thread - the translate function seems to be fairly decent from what I can tell, but I have not had any formal Chinese education, so no guarantees of its accuracy.
posted by toastyk at 10:01 AM on October 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
None of the protesters waiving UK or US flags expects the UK or US to intervene militarily for the cause of HK independence or even less likely HK's political dependence on the UK or US. Even if they wanted to do so, nuclear powers can't get involved in each other's sovereign territory affairs, and the protesters know that.
Instead, those flags are simply an extremely provocative statement of the flag wavers' rejection of further diminution of Hong Kong special status and a common Chinese political identity. A giant middle finger really.
I tend to think that it's quite unwise messaging. A typical educated mainland Chinese person is highly patriotic and has a lot more suspicion for the new wealthy class of Chinese than they have for the CPC which is overall a highly effective and significantly meritocratic governance organization, and which has expended a lot of resources in combating corruption that would compromise effectiveness and meritocracy. The American and UK flags are being read as signs that Hong Kong is one giant mass of spoiled rich capitalist kids who didn't earn their positions and aren't willing to do their communal part.
posted by MattD at 10:50 AM on October 5, 2019
Instead, those flags are simply an extremely provocative statement of the flag wavers' rejection of further diminution of Hong Kong special status and a common Chinese political identity. A giant middle finger really.
I tend to think that it's quite unwise messaging. A typical educated mainland Chinese person is highly patriotic and has a lot more suspicion for the new wealthy class of Chinese than they have for the CPC which is overall a highly effective and significantly meritocratic governance organization, and which has expended a lot of resources in combating corruption that would compromise effectiveness and meritocracy. The American and UK flags are being read as signs that Hong Kong is one giant mass of spoiled rich capitalist kids who didn't earn their positions and aren't willing to do their communal part.
posted by MattD at 10:50 AM on October 5, 2019
I'm not going to put words in the mouths of anyone in HK. Nor am I going to assume that everyone in HK has the same ideas. Even the five demands, one of which includes universal suffrage, are not agreed to by everyone.
This is a storm. There is confusion, and destruction, and bravery, and stupidity. And in that tempest, some will stand up and declare their thoughts, and see who agrees. Some may be heard, some may have their voices lost to the wind and thunder.
This is a declaration, not a decision. I'm not sure who is saying it, or why, or what will happen, or how many support it.
I just hope, sincerely, that the people in HK will be safe, and prosperous and free. I have tears in my eyes, reading that thread of what the people in HK envision for their future. I hope that whatever happens, the voices of those in HK will be heard. Because we can speculate on what people mean, or we can listen to what they say.
Also I learned about the Lion Rock Spirit from that, which I hadn't heard of before. I really wish "below the lion rock" had a good translation of it's lyrics on wikipedia.
posted by gryftir at 2:15 PM on October 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is a storm. There is confusion, and destruction, and bravery, and stupidity. And in that tempest, some will stand up and declare their thoughts, and see who agrees. Some may be heard, some may have their voices lost to the wind and thunder.
This is a declaration, not a decision. I'm not sure who is saying it, or why, or what will happen, or how many support it.
I just hope, sincerely, that the people in HK will be safe, and prosperous and free. I have tears in my eyes, reading that thread of what the people in HK envision for their future. I hope that whatever happens, the voices of those in HK will be heard. Because we can speculate on what people mean, or we can listen to what they say.
Also I learned about the Lion Rock Spirit from that, which I hadn't heard of before. I really wish "below the lion rock" had a good translation of it's lyrics on wikipedia.
posted by gryftir at 2:15 PM on October 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
It's a stretch for any Hong Konger to think that the CCP is a "highly effective and significantly meritocratic governance organization", when they have seen firsthand the ineptitude and the incompetence of its mouthpieces in HK governance - i.e., Carrie Lam. There is no reason for them to appeal to mainlanders on those grounds, and existing relationships between mainlanders and Hong Kongers are fraught for a host of other reasons.
Ultimately, we don't know what the future will hold. Hong Kongers have basically decided they can't keep going on as they have before, and if they fight, they at least have a chance, however slim, to hold on to their identity and their ability to decide their own future.
posted by toastyk at 4:19 PM on October 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
Ultimately, we don't know what the future will hold. Hong Kongers have basically decided they can't keep going on as they have before, and if they fight, they at least have a chance, however slim, to hold on to their identity and their ability to decide their own future.
posted by toastyk at 4:19 PM on October 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
Some of you may also find this twitter thread on how HK protest art has evolved illuminating, as they take their inspiration from a lot of historical references.
From the American Revolution to the French, the civil rights mvmt, 1989, the cacerolazo, Ukraine... we remember these histories bcos they remind us the struggle for human rights & dignity is universal & that HKers' fight right now is just part of sth much bigger.
posted by toastyk at 4:38 PM on October 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
From the American Revolution to the French, the civil rights mvmt, 1989, the cacerolazo, Ukraine... we remember these histories bcos they remind us the struggle for human rights & dignity is universal & that HKers' fight right now is just part of sth much bigger.
posted by toastyk at 4:38 PM on October 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
One thing that Hong Kongers are asking the USA to do is pass the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, a bill with sponsors from both parties in the US House and Senate. Some analysis and criticism of the act from a HK perspective.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:19 AM on October 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 8:19 AM on October 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Thanks for sharing that, I'd forgotten about Lausan, which I think had an FPP a little while ago. Perhaps unsurprisingly, parts of their response to the HKHRDA would have been a far more eloquent way of phrasing a lot of my concerns.
"In light of Beijing and Hong Kong authorities’ ongoing campaign of violence against protesters, we understand protesters’ desire for outside intervention that could offer some protection. We acknowledge that the HKHRDA, on its face, could offer certain strategic advantages to Hong Kongers in this moment of crisis.
At the same time, we cannot endorse any policy that places Hong Kong’s fate in the hands of (yet another) empire’s self-interest.
...We also hope we have called attention to the potential danger of treating U.S. immigration policies and surveillance as tools to “help” Hong Kongers, as well as the global abuses of U.S. foreign policy in which the HKHRDA would compel Hong Kong’s participation. In our efforts to fight state violence in Hong Kong—we cannot support state violence elsewhere. As the slogan goes, we must leave no one behind.
...Nor does it appear to move Hong Kong’s resistance movement any closer to genuine self-determination. Most importantly, it decenters the urgent necessity for a radical reimagination of Hong Kong’s future: where Hong Kong’s existence is no longer underwritten by a superpower’s self-interest, but by the power of our people—in cross-border solidarities with others in resistance against imperialism around the world."
posted by Acid Communist at 9:59 AM on October 6, 2019
"In light of Beijing and Hong Kong authorities’ ongoing campaign of violence against protesters, we understand protesters’ desire for outside intervention that could offer some protection. We acknowledge that the HKHRDA, on its face, could offer certain strategic advantages to Hong Kongers in this moment of crisis.
At the same time, we cannot endorse any policy that places Hong Kong’s fate in the hands of (yet another) empire’s self-interest.
...We also hope we have called attention to the potential danger of treating U.S. immigration policies and surveillance as tools to “help” Hong Kongers, as well as the global abuses of U.S. foreign policy in which the HKHRDA would compel Hong Kong’s participation. In our efforts to fight state violence in Hong Kong—we cannot support state violence elsewhere. As the slogan goes, we must leave no one behind.
...Nor does it appear to move Hong Kong’s resistance movement any closer to genuine self-determination. Most importantly, it decenters the urgent necessity for a radical reimagination of Hong Kong’s future: where Hong Kong’s existence is no longer underwritten by a superpower’s self-interest, but by the power of our people—in cross-border solidarities with others in resistance against imperialism around the world."
posted by Acid Communist at 9:59 AM on October 6, 2019
This kinda off-topic but the NBA (pro basketball):
but Darryl Morrey, the GM of the Houston Rockets, an extremely popular NBA (basketball) team, tweeted out a pro-democracy Hong Kong tweet on Friday.
Yao Ming, a very successful NBA player and by the far the most popular Chinese player in NBA history, played for Houston in the 2000s resulting in the Rockets being one of the most popular teams in China.
On Saturday, the CBA (Chinese Basketball Association) cut all ties with the Rockets, (source, a former Tencent reporter who covered the Rockets ; Tencent which has the distribution to broadcast NBA games in China, has dropped all reporting coverage and broadcasting of the Rockets, essentially blacklisting the Rockets.
There's now strong rumors that Morey may be asked to step down from his position
(I know rumors are usually a dime a dozen in the NBA, but this would be unprecedented); the NBA hasn't yet issued any statements but they likely will soon.
The Ringer has a good overview of this developing story.
posted by fizzix at 4:47 PM on October 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
but Darryl Morrey, the GM of the Houston Rockets, an extremely popular NBA (basketball) team, tweeted out a pro-democracy Hong Kong tweet on Friday.
Yao Ming, a very successful NBA player and by the far the most popular Chinese player in NBA history, played for Houston in the 2000s resulting in the Rockets being one of the most popular teams in China.
On Saturday, the CBA (Chinese Basketball Association) cut all ties with the Rockets, (source, a former Tencent reporter who covered the Rockets ; Tencent which has the distribution to broadcast NBA games in China, has dropped all reporting coverage and broadcasting of the Rockets, essentially blacklisting the Rockets.
There's now strong rumors that Morey may be asked to step down from his position
(I know rumors are usually a dime a dozen in the NBA, but this would be unprecedented); the NBA hasn't yet issued any statements but they likely will soon.
The Ringer has a good overview of this developing story.
posted by fizzix at 4:47 PM on October 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
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posted by KleenexMakesaVeryGoodHat at 9:55 AM on October 4, 2019