The Freddy Krueger in the room
October 25, 2019 10:14 AM   Subscribe

Video: Two Women Confronted Harvey Weinstein At LES Bar & Got Thrown Out (Gothamist) “ When contacted by THR, a representative for Weinstein said, "Harvey Weinstein was out with friends enjoying the music and trying to find some solace in his life that has been turned upside down. This scene was uncalled for, downright rude and an example of how due process today is being squashed by the public, trying to take it away in the courtroom too." The Hollywood Reporter. “ “Being in that space, I felt like the air was sucked out of my chest,” said Bachman. “I’ve literally had nightmares about running into Harvey Weinstein.-“ The Cut. This is not the first time this has happened at the venue. (Twitter) (CW/TW discussion of sexual assault)
posted by The Whelk (39 comments total) 25 users marked this as a favorite
 
that poor man, how can he go on after this terrible violation
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 10:19 AM on October 25, 2019 [39 favorites]


What Weinstein's lawyer wants isn't due process, it's dude process.

I know it's hard to predict how you'll react in a crisis situation, but I like to think that most sane people would have alarm bells ringing in their head when they're trying to protect Harvey fucking Weinstein from women saying mean things to him and suggesting that he should find another place to "find solace". Is Riker's full?
posted by tonycpsu at 10:28 AM on October 25, 2019 [38 favorites]


I can't even imagine why ANYONE would want to be seen with Weinstein. Hell, I can't even imagine someone wanting to be his bodyguard. At this point, anyone who still chooses to associate with Weinstein should be considered an accomplice.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:30 AM on October 25, 2019 [9 favorites]


What's really disgusting is the response by the venue organizer defending her atrocious judgement with free speech absolutism:
Alexandra Laliberte, the organizer of Actor's Hour, told BuzzFeed News it was the second time Weinstein had turned up to one of her events. Laliberte added that she doesn't have a security team, and rather than turn Weinstein away, she thought the community could address him.

"I welcome all walks of life into my space," she said.

When asked why she allowed Weinstein to attend an event specifically intended to support and encourage young actors when he has been accused of sexually assaulting and harassing dozens of them, Laliberte told BuzzFeed News: "I protect them by freedom of speech."
Allow me to say fuck that noise. You should not be "inviting" predators in your space, and expect that victims will see it as safe.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:31 AM on October 25, 2019 [68 favorites]


Dude Comedian: "Rape is hilarious, right?"
Apologists: "What edgy humor! Pushing boundaries is what true freedom is all about! If you're uncomfortable, that's on you!"

Anyone Else: "That rapist rapes people."
Apologists: "How dare you make him uncomfortable!"
posted by Etrigan at 10:33 AM on October 25, 2019 [97 favorites]


I can't even imagine why ANYONE would want to be seen with Weinstein.

Because there are many in the Hollywood set that expect that this will all "blow over", and when it does, Harvey will remember who was loyal to him. Yes, it's revolting.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:33 AM on October 25, 2019 [18 favorites]


I'm surprised he thinks he can just go out for a casual evening in public in the middle of New York City and not have people confront him.
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:34 AM on October 25, 2019 [9 favorites]


The comment from the bar is gross and self-serving and ridiculous, but not as gross and self-serving and ridiculous as the comment the organizer of Actor's Hour, which was not as gross and self-serving and ridiculous as the comment from Weinstein's group. There's a hierarchy of the hateable in this story.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:34 AM on October 25, 2019 [20 favorites]


Because there are many in the Hollywood set that expect that this will all "blow over", and when it does, Harvey will remember who was loyal to him.

It's also a signal to the "less bad" people (men) in and around Hollywood: "I am loyal and will defend you at least up until your crimes are as bad as Harvey's."
posted by Etrigan at 10:34 AM on October 25, 2019 [7 favorites]


Speaking as someone who believes in an expansive right to free speech, it's awfully hard to see any connection between freedom of speech and breaking bread with a rapist on private property.
posted by jenkinsEar at 10:34 AM on October 25, 2019 [35 favorites]


I can't even imagine why ANYONE would want to be seen with Weinstein.

They’re also rapists or rape-oriented?
posted by Burhanistan at 10:42 AM on October 25, 2019 [7 favorites]


For most free speech absolutists, "freedom of speech" only means freedom from consequences of speech for white people.
posted by Reyturner at 10:42 AM on October 25, 2019 [30 favorites]


NoxAeternum: Alexandra Laliberte, the organizer of Actor's Hour, told BuzzFeed News it was the second time Weinstein had turned up to one of her events. Laliberte added that she doesn't have a security team, and rather than turn Weinstein away, she thought the community could address him.

But the community did address him, and then those members of the community were thrown out.

How was that protecting their freedom of speech again?
posted by filthy light thief at 10:44 AM on October 25, 2019 [62 favorites]


Because setting Harvey Weinstein among a group of young actresses is such a hot idea.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:53 AM on October 25, 2019 [2 favorites]


That video was such a gut punch. The absolute fucking nerves of steel that must have took. The men in the crowd that immediately boo'd? Soul crushing. I can't even articulate right now I'm so livid that these women had to go through this alone, and no one else in the crowd did anything about it. Fuck everyone who was involved. The club owner should be just as ostracized. Apparently they invited Weinstein on the 20th of last month. Shut the fucking club down, send all those fuckers to the middle of the ocean.
posted by FirstMateKate at 10:59 AM on October 25, 2019 [36 favorites]


All you need to know is some men at that event felt secure publicly booing a comedian who merely brought up the fact that a notorious rapist was present. That is how accepting this society still is of rape, that a man likely in the presence of people he knows will openly boo someone for daring to judge a rapist.
posted by sallybrown at 11:01 AM on October 25, 2019 [46 favorites]


Yeah, Kelly Bachman's poise is almost unbelievable. I could not have completed a coherent sentence in a similar situation, and confess I would be unlikely to even try. Courage personified.
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 11:04 AM on October 25, 2019 [10 favorites]


You're a lost cause if you ridicule, boo, and eject a rape victim in order to coddle and flatter a powerful known rapist.

So: shut down Actors Hour. Shut down the Downtime Bar. They're beyond the point of being worth saving. Patronize instead other events and venues - ones that aren't run by assholes hell-bent on licking the boots of powerful, evil men and shitting on women.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:32 AM on October 25, 2019 [10 favorites]


Actors Hour has posted this to their Instagram page:
In the last 24 hours I’ve moments in which my personal fear and sadness has urged me to respond defensively. But I want to stay as open as I can through this process, especially with the people who have trusted me and who feel let down. I want to sincerely apologize to any people - male ore female - who were re-traumatized, hurt, or felt disrespected this week at Actors Hour
Worth a read.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2019


Worth a read.

No, it isn't. It's standard CYA bullshit that refuses to acknowledge why inviting Weinstein and ejecting those who confronted him was so wrong, and then demands that we do the work for them for reasons excellently explained here. It is absolutely inadequate, and Actors Hour should be ashamed for posting it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:58 AM on October 25, 2019 [42 favorites]


Fair point, NoxAeternum. The fact that it’s the second time it’s happened is definitely a big negative to overcome. Forgot about that part.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:03 PM on October 25, 2019


This whole situation (especially the videos) is so fucking terrible. But one especially maddening aspect to me is this whole reliance on "due process" as some kind of excuse/shield; in the Buzzfeed article, apparently one of the people who escorted Stuckless out of the venue just kept repeating "due process" as he was kicking her out. Due process is only required for criminal prosecution, not social ostracization. By that logic, OJ Simpson shouldn't have been socially ostracized at all after his not guilty verdict.
posted by mhum at 12:15 PM on October 25, 2019 [25 favorites]


In the Court of Public Opinion, this is due process.

People don’t need a writ signed by a judge to ostracize a predator.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:24 PM on October 25, 2019 [11 favorites]


The "due process" and "free speech" arguments are endlessly infuriating. Those are rules our government has to follow (hint: they aren't) but they're being fervently used by right-wing or wealthy cohorts to manipulate social situations. It's a specific kind of communal gaslighting, almost. They keep repeating it, and it sounds familiar, so eventually people do start to believe that it applies in these situations.
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:26 PM on October 25, 2019 [12 favorites]


Andrew Silas: I swear I'm not a piece of shit

Maybe you should have run with the chloroform joke instead then, or just for one minute left humor behind and said you support your fellow comedian?
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:27 PM on October 25, 2019 [1 favorite]


Worth a read.

No, it isn't.


Essential parts of an apology include "...and here's how I'm going to make amends to those I hurt" and "...and here's what I'm going to do differently in the future." Neither of those is present in this self-serving "We're sorry we got caught" crapfest.
posted by Etrigan at 12:28 PM on October 25, 2019 [14 favorites]


When asked why she allowed Weinstein to attend an event specifically intended to support and encourage young actors when he has been accused of sexually assaulting and harassing dozens of them, Laliberte told BuzzFeed News: "I protect them by freedom of speech."

Uh...excuse me? What does that even mean? "I protect them by freedom of speech" doesn't even make any sense syntactically, much less any other way. It's like she just sort of mumbled and then at the last second decided to say "free speech" as a prophylactic phrase of some sort. What bullshit.
posted by holborne at 12:30 PM on October 25, 2019 [10 favorites]


I can't even imagine why ANYONE would want to be seen with Weinstein.

Reportedly, as this was going down, something that the comedian onstage is said to have said was: "Okay, show of hands, who here has produced an Oscar-winning movie?....."

That's why. He spent a long time pitching himself as "The Winner of Oscars" and is counting on that to carry his rep. And - it often does work.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:04 PM on October 25, 2019 [4 favorites]


No man like him should ever feel safe or welcomed in public spaces. The end.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:12 PM on October 25, 2019 [31 favorites]


That woman was unbelievably courageous and poised.

I want all the men who booed at her NAMED RIGHT NOW. Let's see who these little chickenshits are and if they want to stand by their positions in the light of day.

Rarely has the false equivalence of "welcoming/keeping everyone comfortable" been so starkly exposed: how could anyone feel welcomed or comfortable drinking in a bar with a man faced with widespread and credible accusations of sexual assault--except other people who want to commit sexual assault, or preserve general white male impunity from consequences?

Keep my part of NYC Weinstein-free!!! Because so far no one in my immediate family has ever been arrested, and I'd hate to break the streak.
posted by praemunire at 1:12 PM on October 25, 2019 [19 favorites]


Constance Grady's Vox article today is pretty good for showing how this is part of a deliberate and by now well-established rehabilitation strategy, which carefully plans on a small amount of controversy during these first outings, just as was done for Louis CK and Mel Gibson. Grady links it back her her Gibson "blueprint" article from two years ago, and whatever one thinks of Vox overall, their emphasis on recycling info and circling back to past articles also seems to work to gradually radicalize them as they are forced to confront how terribly unchanging things are.
posted by chortly at 10:18 PM on October 25, 2019 [9 favorites]


I'm not able to watch the video, is it at all possible that some boos were directed at Weinstein? I think if someone pointed out Weinstein was in the room I would be inclined to boo him. Maybe if this ever happens I'd be better served by just punching him? Not necessarily a deal breaker.
posted by axiom at 12:02 AM on October 26, 2019


No
posted by Burhanistan at 12:18 AM on October 26, 2019 [4 favorites]


Lol who looks for “due process” at a nightclub? Been playing in bar bands my whole life and that is funny.
posted by spitbull at 6:11 AM on October 26, 2019 [3 favorites]


how terribly unchanging things are.

Hey remeber how like a month ago the anonymous masseuse who was bringing charges against Kevin Spacey whi was being kept anonymous cause he feared for his life died mysteriously and the case was dropped but cancel culture is something we have to talk about for some reason?
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 AM on October 26, 2019 [8 favorites]


Scott Lemieux: More Violations of Dude Process
To state what should be obvious, it does not violate anybody's "due process" rights to be criticized, onstage or off, at a comedy club. Harvey Weinstein is entitled to a presumption of innocence in a court of law; he is not entitled to the presumption that dozens of women are lying about him when he interacts with other private individuals in public. As North says, the idea that powerful men credibly accused of abusing women are entitled to freedom from social sanction unless they've been convicted of a crime in a court of law is both absurd and pernicious.

Another example of this phenomenon is an awful recent article by Emily Yoffe, which inter alia asserts that a Jonathan Kaiman's "due process" rights were violated when he was fired after a three month investigation determined that charges of sexual misconduct by other journalists were credible. Again, it's just amazing what "due process" protections people pretend to think American workers are generally entitled to whenever a white guy is a accused of a sex-related offense. Even better is that this article was published in Reason. My questions are 1)what "due process" rights do the editors think workers are entitled to before being terminated and 2)should these rights be available to people other than white guys accused of sexual misconduct? I think we can be pretty confident that they haven't embraced Elizabeth Anderson and come out against at-will employment.

By the way, a special Harvey Weinstein Due Process Award goes to Caitlin Flanagan, who grossly smeared one of Kaiman's accusers – the journalist Felicia Somnez – while being almost proud of having no idea what the facts of the case were, but going ahead and fitting them around misogynist 80s movie tropes anyway.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:50 AM on October 26, 2019 [5 favorites]


"I welcome all walks of life into my space" can go in the same fucking dumpster as Ellen's "Be kind to everyone".

What lesbiassparow said on the Blue regarding the Jeffrey Epstein/MIT connection also applies here, I think.
Imagine what that felt like for everyone who wasn't down with courting [rapists]. Imagine what it was like for anyone with a history of abuse. Imagine what is like now for his victims to know he could be invited warmly into these spaces.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:27 PM on October 26, 2019 [1 favorite]


I can't even imagine why ANYONE would want to be seen with Weinstein.

Because there are many in the Hollywood set that expect that this will all "blow over", and when it does, Harvey will remember who was loyal to him. Yes, it's revolting.


Where the rubber hits the road, I have as fully as much confidence in the decency, integrity, and moral courage of entertainment-industry types re. Weinstein as I have in that of "moderate" Republicans re. Trump.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:38 PM on October 26, 2019


I just love it when allegations of sexual assault ruin a man's career.

Louis C.K. announces new 14-city tour in email to fans
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 PM on October 27, 2019 [2 favorites]


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