"Danny put his whole life aside to attempt to protect children.”
July 6, 2020 2:55 PM Subscribe
Last November, Daniel M. Lavery -- cofounder of the Toast and Metafilter favorite author -- abruptly and publicly broke with his entire family of origin. Lavery's father is the influential evangelical author John Ortberg, pastor at the prominent Menlo Church, and his sister Laura Turner is also a Christian writer. Lavery had written warmly about his family before. What could have happened?
Megachurch pastor John Ortberg kept a family member’s attraction to children secret. Then his son blew the whistle.
By his own account, Daniel Lavery had tried in vain to persuade his family to find outside treatment for his younger brother, only to be dismissed as having no moral standing to judge pedophilic urges -- because Daniel is transgender, and so is his wife.
According to Lavery, Pastor Ortberg had instead sought to treat his pedophilic son by allowing him to continue his volunteer work with children, citing the principles of the "virtuous pedophile" movement. In response, Lavery broke with them and reported his brother.
Ironically, John and his wife Nancy Ortberg had previously been involved in reporting and supporting victims of sexual harassment by another megachurch pastor, Bill Hybels.
Megachurch pastor John Ortberg kept a family member’s attraction to children secret. Then his son blew the whistle.
By his own account, Daniel Lavery had tried in vain to persuade his family to find outside treatment for his younger brother, only to be dismissed as having no moral standing to judge pedophilic urges -- because Daniel is transgender, and so is his wife.
According to Lavery, Pastor Ortberg had instead sought to treat his pedophilic son by allowing him to continue his volunteer work with children, citing the principles of the "virtuous pedophile" movement. In response, Lavery broke with them and reported his brother.
Ironically, John and his wife Nancy Ortberg had previously been involved in reporting and supporting victims of sexual harassment by another megachurch pastor, Bill Hybels.
This is so sad. The mom of one of the kids on the frisbee team about sums it up, with regard to the father and the brother:
“His silence and secrecy put my child in harm’s way,” she said. “He was in an admittedly horrible, untenable position and he made the wrong choice.”
Whereas Daniel was in the same position and made the right choice. But I’m sure that feels like cold comfort when you no longer have your family.
posted by sallybrown at 3:13 PM on July 6, 2020 [34 favorites]
“His silence and secrecy put my child in harm’s way,” she said. “He was in an admittedly horrible, untenable position and he made the wrong choice.”
Whereas Daniel was in the same position and made the right choice. But I’m sure that feels like cold comfort when you no longer have your family.
posted by sallybrown at 3:13 PM on July 6, 2020 [34 favorites]
I have been following this on Twitter and I'm glad to see this on the Blue. Grace Lavery has tweeted that there is at least one other news organization preparing to run a story on this. Daniel has showed incredible bravery and integrity, and has paid such a huge cost to do what's right and to protect children. In a time where ethical role models seem few and far between, his example is inspiring.
posted by rogerroger at 3:16 PM on July 6, 2020 [48 favorites]
posted by rogerroger at 3:16 PM on July 6, 2020 [48 favorites]
yeah, following the progression of this story via Grace and Danny's online accounts has been increasingly heartbreaking and horrifying. their patience, strength, and resilience in refusing to allow the church or the Ortbergs to hide the story has been absolutely incredible, and it's just another monstrous act by that family that they forced these two to have worked so hard to keep this from being silenced entirely.
posted by Kybard at 3:20 PM on July 6, 2020 [23 favorites]
posted by Kybard at 3:20 PM on July 6, 2020 [23 favorites]
Menlo Church member Ruth Hutchins has been maintaining a timeline that is quite thorough and helpful.
I can't imagine what Daniel and Grace have been feeling, but they've been absolute lions throughout. We're a better world for having them with us.
posted by rewil at 3:21 PM on July 6, 2020 [18 favorites]
I can't imagine what Daniel and Grace have been feeling, but they've been absolute lions throughout. We're a better world for having them with us.
posted by rewil at 3:21 PM on July 6, 2020 [18 favorites]
I see, so this is the specific thing that caused Lavery to change his last name.. I'm glad he has his found family. This is rough.
posted by acidnova at 3:31 PM on July 6, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by acidnova at 3:31 PM on July 6, 2020 [20 favorites]
This obviously took enormous moral courage.
Many people would have been comforted by the assurances given as part of the investigation, the assurance that their brother would never work with children again, and that nothing had actually happened. It would be so easy, wouldn't it? To accept that. When it's your father covering up for your brother? I mean, there's been an external investigation, measures have been taken. Now we can forget about it.
I think many people wouldn't have had the moral clarity and the courage to decide that actually it wasn't enough. The investigation hadn't been thorough enough, the whole thing wasn't being taken seriously enough to protect children.
It's especially courageous because it has always been clear from Daniel's writing that he has very fond feelings for his family even if their attitude towards his transition has made that more difficult recently. His life, his best friend's life were both very closely intertwined with the wider Ortberg family. He didn't walk away from something easy here.
posted by atrazine at 3:51 PM on July 6, 2020 [54 favorites]
Many people would have been comforted by the assurances given as part of the investigation, the assurance that their brother would never work with children again, and that nothing had actually happened. It would be so easy, wouldn't it? To accept that. When it's your father covering up for your brother? I mean, there's been an external investigation, measures have been taken. Now we can forget about it.
I think many people wouldn't have had the moral clarity and the courage to decide that actually it wasn't enough. The investigation hadn't been thorough enough, the whole thing wasn't being taken seriously enough to protect children.
It's especially courageous because it has always been clear from Daniel's writing that he has very fond feelings for his family even if their attitude towards his transition has made that more difficult recently. His life, his best friend's life were both very closely intertwined with the wider Ortberg family. He didn't walk away from something easy here.
posted by atrazine at 3:51 PM on July 6, 2020 [54 favorites]
The detail where Nicole Cliffe became a Christian because of Pastor Ortberg and he even baptized her, is heartbreaking.
posted by emjaybee at 4:05 PM on July 6, 2020 [28 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 4:05 PM on July 6, 2020 [28 favorites]
The investigator engaged is an employment lawyer named Fred W. Alvarez, “whose practice focuses on defending employers but lists no expertise in working with churches or abuse.”
At every turn the Ortbergs make the absolute worst choice. The most reprehensible, immoral, ungodly choice.
posted by meemzi at 4:17 PM on July 6, 2020 [10 favorites]
At every turn the Ortbergs make the absolute worst choice. The most reprehensible, immoral, ungodly choice.
posted by meemzi at 4:17 PM on July 6, 2020 [10 favorites]
The quote I posted is from menlo-church.com, which is where the Laverys are compiling information about the allegations and cover up.
posted by meemzi at 4:34 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by meemzi at 4:34 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Having unfortunately grown up with an evangelical extended family, dollars to donuts part of the reason Ortberg covered it up--besides the usual evangelical BS--is that he was in denial that yet another of his children could be (IN HIS EYES) a "deviant." The layers of shame, self-righteousness, and hypocrisy go very deep with these kinds of people.
I can't imagine how difficult this has been for Daniel Lavery, or even for his wife. I hope Brooklyn is giving them lots of love.
posted by praemunire at 5:10 PM on July 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
I can't imagine how difficult this has been for Daniel Lavery, or even for his wife. I hope Brooklyn is giving them lots of love.
posted by praemunire at 5:10 PM on July 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
his father urged him to remain quiet, out of fear that his brother might harm himself if he were cut off from contact with children
This man deliberately endangered other children so that his son wouldn't be sad at losing contact with them.
What the actual fuck.
posted by corb at 5:20 PM on July 6, 2020 [25 favorites]
This man deliberately endangered other children so that his son wouldn't be sad at losing contact with them.
What the actual fuck.
posted by corb at 5:20 PM on July 6, 2020 [25 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Don't comment here in a way that seems to downplay the seriousness of child abuse; I'm giving a 24 hour ban to underscore that.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:21 PM on July 6, 2020 [28 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:21 PM on July 6, 2020 [28 favorites]
I’m a subscriber to the free version of the Shatner Chatner (but not a twitter user) and the unfolding of this story has been like, how many shoes have dropped? How many nightmare legs does this story have? I really hope this is the last one. What a deeply depressing set of things to have to know about one’s family. I am glad Danny has fierce and loving people around him, walking away with him.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 5:40 PM on July 6, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 5:40 PM on July 6, 2020 [17 favorites]
Jesus Christ that timeline. I can't imagine having a family member confess that they are a pedophile, let alone the car crash that resulted from the bad decisions of the parents. Immersion therapy for a pedophile? Using threats of suicide as a cudgel to keep the secret? Holy ugh. I feel sorry for everyone involved, but Daniel Lavery deserves a medal for best behavior in a terrible situation.
(Also, not that I want to see them here, but why doesn't Menlo Church have any East Bay chapters?)
posted by benzenedream at 6:22 PM on July 6, 2020 [6 favorites]
(Also, not that I want to see them here, but why doesn't Menlo Church have any East Bay chapters?)
posted by benzenedream at 6:22 PM on July 6, 2020 [6 favorites]
Well, this is heartbreaking. It would probably feel even more so if this calendar year hadn't already flung me into a numb maybe-this-is-just-a-simulation sort of fugue.
I remember Daniel tweeting about five years ago about silly Dad-like things his dad would do, and inspiring a thread of similar submissions from others about when their dads operated at peak Dad-ness. I was heartened to see that Daniel's father was on Twitter, was a pastor, and had an ostensibly affectionate relationship with someone who struck me as the epitome of a secular humanist.
I had a fleeting thought about this when Daniel announced his transition a couple years later — a hope that that action didn't cost Daniel anything in terms of broken relationships with family members.
Disavowals of one's parents are rarely easy, I'm sure, but must be especially hard in a situation where you find yourself on the outs for being the only one who acted like an adult. I can see that John made some very poor decisions while being manipulated by his youngest son — I can't see a therapist because I might get reported somehow, you can't forbid me from supervising kids because it's the only thing I have to live for, et cetera. That's bad enough, but the half-a-loaf response from the church suggests that they're not even incensed about the liability nightmare that exists when a mandatory reporter is caught not reporting. Penn State came to light eight years ago.
Even having known and admired Daniel's writing talents, I am impressed at how precisely and skillfully he's communicated in these letters about deeply hurtful and troublesome events that implicate his own family members. I would never wish for reconciliation unless it can be both earned by the transgressors and freely given by the wounded parties, but if that's not in the cards, I hope that Daniel can feel some amount of closure from being so thoroughly vindicated by the evidence that's been laid out here.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:34 PM on July 6, 2020 [19 favorites]
I remember Daniel tweeting about five years ago about silly Dad-like things his dad would do, and inspiring a thread of similar submissions from others about when their dads operated at peak Dad-ness. I was heartened to see that Daniel's father was on Twitter, was a pastor, and had an ostensibly affectionate relationship with someone who struck me as the epitome of a secular humanist.
I had a fleeting thought about this when Daniel announced his transition a couple years later — a hope that that action didn't cost Daniel anything in terms of broken relationships with family members.
Disavowals of one's parents are rarely easy, I'm sure, but must be especially hard in a situation where you find yourself on the outs for being the only one who acted like an adult. I can see that John made some very poor decisions while being manipulated by his youngest son — I can't see a therapist because I might get reported somehow, you can't forbid me from supervising kids because it's the only thing I have to live for, et cetera. That's bad enough, but the half-a-loaf response from the church suggests that they're not even incensed about the liability nightmare that exists when a mandatory reporter is caught not reporting. Penn State came to light eight years ago.
Even having known and admired Daniel's writing talents, I am impressed at how precisely and skillfully he's communicated in these letters about deeply hurtful and troublesome events that implicate his own family members. I would never wish for reconciliation unless it can be both earned by the transgressors and freely given by the wounded parties, but if that's not in the cards, I hope that Daniel can feel some amount of closure from being so thoroughly vindicated by the evidence that's been laid out here.
posted by savetheclocktower at 6:34 PM on July 6, 2020 [19 favorites]
Yikes, I totally never made the connection that Danny Lavery was related to John Ortberg. “Poor judgment” my ass; reckless endangerment, more like.
posted by holborne at 6:47 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by holborne at 6:47 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Couple months back I was grousing to my wife that I liked Daniel's writing, why couldn't he hyphenate to make it easier to find? I assumed shitty transphobia with the family but this is just jaw-dropping. Poor dude, but gotta admit the guts — really setting a high bar for every future advice columnist. Hope he's got lots of people to lean on now.
posted by klangklangston at 6:49 PM on July 6, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 6:49 PM on July 6, 2020 [8 favorites]
I admit to having been curious about how the Ortberg family family felt about Daniel's transition; this isn't really the way I wanted to find out. My heart goes out of Daniel and Grace (and Nicolle Cliffe, as well) over this. They are good people and don't deserve the kind of pain they're going through to do the right thing. And my heart goes out to the Ortbergs as well, for suffering through the delusional thinking that led to these bad decisions.
posted by lhauser at 7:06 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by lhauser at 7:06 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
Oh my god. What horrendously bad and delusional judgment on the part of John Ortberg (and the mother, sister, and brother, but it seems like a lot of the decision to keep quiet and cover everything up came from John in his role of pastoral authority). I really feel for Danny; it must be just terrible to lose your entire family in one fell swoop. And really, what other way would there be to deal with it? Good for him and Grace for doing the right thing and reporting to the relevant authorities what the rest of his family would not.
I've always enjoyed Danny's writing, and in fact last fall requested and received an advance review copy of his upcoming book, Something that May Shock and Discredit You, slated for publication this fall, I think. It's a very good book; much of it is about his transition, but quite a bit of it is also about his family, about whom he writes very lovingly--especially his father. I can't imagine how it must feel for Danny now, to reread those chapters and know this document will be out there in the world soon, a relic of his previous life before he knew what his family's moral compass was really like. I wonder if his publisher will allow him to revise the book before it is published? I hope so, for his sake.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 7:10 PM on July 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
I've always enjoyed Danny's writing, and in fact last fall requested and received an advance review copy of his upcoming book, Something that May Shock and Discredit You, slated for publication this fall, I think. It's a very good book; much of it is about his transition, but quite a bit of it is also about his family, about whom he writes very lovingly--especially his father. I can't imagine how it must feel for Danny now, to reread those chapters and know this document will be out there in the world soon, a relic of his previous life before he knew what his family's moral compass was really like. I wonder if his publisher will allow him to revise the book before it is published? I hope so, for his sake.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 7:10 PM on July 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
John Ortberg Sr.'s behaviour was arrogant, unthoughtful, and without insight. From his writings I would have expected him to do better; I wonder if "Johnny" Ortberg had been grooming and gaslighting his own parents.
What a horrible thing for Daniel to deal with; and how fortunate the church's members are that he, a person of such good judgment and discernment, became aware of it. He shouldn't be writing an advice column: he should become, I don't know, Secretary General of the UN or something by acclamation.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:15 PM on July 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
What a horrible thing for Daniel to deal with; and how fortunate the church's members are that he, a person of such good judgment and discernment, became aware of it. He shouldn't be writing an advice column: he should become, I don't know, Secretary General of the UN or something by acclamation.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:15 PM on July 6, 2020 [5 favorites]
A footnote in the timeline stood out to me as a red flag against Menlo Church.
"Some parts of this timeline are based on my memory of the elder board meeting minutes. Note-taking or duplicating the minutes is not allowed"
Is this typical for church board meetings? Because it seems to me that forbidding note-taking or duplicating meetings is an easy way to allow gaslighting of anyone dissenting. "We never said that, you're mis-remembering." and then because you're forbidden from taking notes, you can't back yourself up.
posted by FritoKAL at 7:34 PM on July 6, 2020 [22 favorites]
"Some parts of this timeline are based on my memory of the elder board meeting minutes. Note-taking or duplicating the minutes is not allowed"
Is this typical for church board meetings? Because it seems to me that forbidding note-taking or duplicating meetings is an easy way to allow gaslighting of anyone dissenting. "We never said that, you're mis-remembering." and then because you're forbidden from taking notes, you can't back yourself up.
posted by FritoKAL at 7:34 PM on July 6, 2020 [22 favorites]
Holy crap the pedophile volunteer was John Ortberg's younger son?!? I was following Daniel's pulling away from his family when it first broke in Nov./Dec., when there was lots of (mostly icky) online speculation about the source of the rift ("It's about money! and Danny maybe being cut out of the will!") so it was a relief when Daniel posted the initial, and now apparently reticent, account of what was actually going on, and although I thought "Jeez, how horrible to have your dad being such an in-denial idiot," never in my wildest thoughts did I imagine the awfulness of the situation would cut so very close to home for Daniel. And the complicity of his whole family ... whoof. So awful.
posted by Kat Allison at 7:45 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Kat Allison at 7:45 PM on July 6, 2020 [1 favorite]
I've always enjoyed Danny's writing, and in fact last fall requested and received an advance review copy of his upcoming book, Something that May Shock and Discredit You, slated for publication this fall, I think.Something That May Shock and Discredit You was actually published in February, and I've read it. The last chapter alludes briefly to the estrangement but is from back when Daniel was still—reasonably—being very cagey with the details. Looking at the full scope of things as laid out in the timeline that rewil linked above, it's clear that he went to considerable lengths to make it as easy as possible for the Ortbergs and the church to do the right thing at every step of the process, and at every step of the process, they failed to do so.
posted by valrus at 8:07 PM on July 6, 2020 [15 favorites]
I can't find it on the timeline, but my memory is that Lavery described a last-minute change to those chapters following what he learned; review copies and the final published version differ for that reason.
posted by heyforfour at 8:36 PM on July 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by heyforfour at 8:36 PM on July 6, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm the board chair of a small, lay-led church. This past year I initiated and carried out a process of trying to set fair, common sense boundaries on a predator in my community. (I say "trying" because ultimately the person chose to leave rather than agree to restrictions on participation.) It was the right thing to do, and it was one of the worst experiences of my entire life. I am so, so sorry for what Danny has had to go through: I both understand and also can't fathom it.
posted by Tesseractive at 9:48 PM on July 6, 2020 [28 favorites]
posted by Tesseractive at 9:48 PM on July 6, 2020 [28 favorites]
I've been following this on twitter and all I can say is that I hope someday I am half the man Danny is, with even a fraction of his moral courage and bravery. People like him give me hope.
posted by forza at 10:06 PM on July 6, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by forza at 10:06 PM on July 6, 2020 [17 favorites]
"Some parts of this timeline are based on my memory of the elder board meeting minutes. Note-taking or duplicating the minutes is not allowed"
What the actual fuck?
That's enough of a red flag to walk out the door there and then. And then write down everything and go straight to a lawyer to that writing witnessed. There can be no possible legal justification for that rule.
To quote Stringer Bell, "is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?"
posted by happyinmotion at 1:39 AM on July 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
What the actual fuck?
That's enough of a red flag to walk out the door there and then. And then write down everything and go straight to a lawyer to that writing witnessed. There can be no possible legal justification for that rule.
To quote Stringer Bell, "is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?"
posted by happyinmotion at 1:39 AM on July 7, 2020 [6 favorites]
the la times article is behind a paywall and I can't seem to access it from the links on nypl's site with my card.
posted by brujita at 6:46 AM on July 7, 2020
posted by brujita at 6:46 AM on July 7, 2020
It’s interesting, Nancy apparently had some very strong feelings and concerns over her interaction with Hybel even though “nothing happened.” You would think that this would be even clearer to her that bad intentions and grooming can have a hugely negative affect on one’s sense of trust and self worth. Given that neither of the senior Ortbergs appeared to be in supervision of the junior’s activities with church youth, and given that it appeared a very similar dynamic to the overnight stay/hotel was in play for the youth attending out-of-area sport matches coached and chaperoned by junior, you would think that they would really know better. Given all that and a reluctance to do the right thing or take accountability, it’s no wonder they had to go public. What a terrible thing to have to do.
posted by amanda at 9:00 AM on July 7, 2020
posted by amanda at 9:00 AM on July 7, 2020
Since I read this post and the links yesterday, I have been shaking my head. I do not understand what the older John Ortberg was thinking. Did it not ever occur to him that he was way out of his depth and the most prudent and caring decision would be to get his son qualified mental health care? The younger John Ortberg threatened suicide if he did not get to continue to be around children -- isn't that a big red flag that he does not have healthy relationships with children, lacks perspective, and should not be around children?
The Ruth Hutchins timeline helped me understand what happened when, and it highlighted some details that I hadn't gleaned from the other links. Younger John Ortberg told his father because he had lost his laptop and was afraid of what would happen if the police found it. He traveled frequently to Mexico for "mission" trips and has a "special friendship" with a young boy. All the volunteering with young boys! At the church, at schools. Daniel Lavery alludes to a harmful situation he was in as a child and how his parents swept it under the rug. Does the older John Ortberg have a long history of not taking threats to children seriously?
Still shaking my head.
posted by stowaway at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2020 [9 favorites]
The Ruth Hutchins timeline helped me understand what happened when, and it highlighted some details that I hadn't gleaned from the other links. Younger John Ortberg told his father because he had lost his laptop and was afraid of what would happen if the police found it. He traveled frequently to Mexico for "mission" trips and has a "special friendship" with a young boy. All the volunteering with young boys! At the church, at schools. Daniel Lavery alludes to a harmful situation he was in as a child and how his parents swept it under the rug. Does the older John Ortberg have a long history of not taking threats to children seriously?
Still shaking my head.
posted by stowaway at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2020 [9 favorites]
"Did it not ever occur to him that he was way out of his depth and the most prudent and caring decision would be to get his son qualified mental health care?"
Having worked with evangelical pastors (and done a very small amount of consulting on child protection guidelines for churches, and helped a mainline Protestant minister report a similarly bad situation in defiance of her denomination's rules at the time) -- no, absolutely not, it never occurred to him. One of the defining characteristics of American evangelicalism is a deep distrust of authorities other than the local church leadership. There are some good historical and theological reasons for this distrust, specific to various experiences of various types of evangelical groups (you can all come up with dozens of examples of bad church hierarchies off the top of your heads, I'm sure, starting with the US Catholic Church shuffling abusive priests to hide them; in general, evangelical groups ditch the bishops or other overarching leadership structure and become locally-governed for specific historical reasons that often make good sense at the time). Buuuut over time, the local leadership model in evangelical churches has become increasingly unfettered from any kind of oversight, owing to movements like urbanization and suburbanization, declining church attendance, massively increased amounts of money in evangelical circles, technology enabling megachurches and celebrity pastors, and the nearly complete divorce of evangelical Christianity in the US from science. In the "old days," a locally-governed evangelical church might serve an entire town, and nearly everyone in town attended, and the situation was more like a local school board -- it might be terribly badly managed, but it couldn't really keep secrets or get rid of malcontents and gadflies; it was a community organization governed and overseen by a whole community. That is no longer the case basically anywhere in the US, and the local community oversight model has broken as a result. It's not "all of Menlo Park" attending and invested in this church, it's "a very small handful of evangelicals who are all deeply invested in this church succeeding and feel judged by the community if it fails," and those who don't like what's happening will be encouraged to find another church community or eventually kicked out.
This has led to all manner of clusterfuckery. Evangelical church financials are typically a MESS. Embezzlement gets uncovered all the time. They break IRS rules on the regular and engage in all kinds of tax fraud, and the solution was to have lobbyists get Republicans to make the IRS stop investigating evangelical churches. Churches collapse on the regular when they get sued or fined out of existence because the pastor tied them up in some absolutely moronic financial fraud scheme, and the pastor moves on to the next church. Churches collapse on the regular because half the leadership team is having affairs with each other and get discovered. Or because the leadership team gets in snits with each other over their children's prom dates and take down the church in the resulting infighting.
The lack of effective local oversight, the ability for pastors to become celebrities, and the refusal to trust ANY kind of outside authorities creates this kind of situation all the time. There are groups and organizations doing amazing work in this space: GRACE is fantastic -- and largely ignored. There is an organization devoted to transparent, accurate financials for local evangelical churches that is great -- and mostly ignored. Attempts at oversight are now treated as secular attacks on the church, attempts to silence the word of God by using "minor" or "unimportant" problems to shame the church. I was in a Protestant seminary when the Spotlight story about US Catholic abuse broke, and the consensus was, "It is just as bad in Protestant churches, and everybody knows it." MOST mainline denominations took this as a wakeup call to clean house and update their rules to better protect children in (although the better outcome would have been to have an actual truth-and-reconciliation committee putting it all out there for the world to see, but nobody did that); most evangelical groups did not, because they saw it as a) a Catholic problem and b) a secular attack on the church. If you've never seen an evangelical church from the inside, with access to the financials and the decision-making process, it may be difficult to understand how deeeeeeeeeeply fucked up they are, especially the large and wealthy megachurches which use slick marketing to present themselves as being like Fortune 500 companies, when in fact they're all Trump real estate scams on the inside. A lot of lawyers and accountants who specialize in religious organizations flatly will not touch them as clients, because there is no way to get out of it with your hands clean, and the client is going to ignore what you tell them and continue on with the crimeing. (Honestly part of the reason Liberty University had to start a law school.)
Anyway, having dealt with a bunch of evangelical pastors over the years, and watched many many more: No. It literally never occurred to John Ortberg that he was way out of his depth. It absolutely never occurred to him that his son needed "qualified mental health care" because it's likely he doesn't "believe in" it, and even if he does, he thinks prayer and repentance is the more powerful tool, and "qualified mental health care" is for people who don't know Jesus and so CAN'T pray their way back to health. (The thought process is something like, It's in the Gospel, and the Gospel is literally true; Jesus just HEALS people who want to be healed; medical and mental health care are for people who don't truly know Jesus. It might work, sort-of, but it's just a band-aid on the problem, which is not knowing Jesus.) It never occurred to him that he might be unqualified to handle this situation -- he works for GOD (dammit!), and God will help him know what to do if he prays enough. He'd be thinking, I even exposed abuse in a church once before and was lauded as Godly! I'm definitely the best-qualified person to make this decision! This is different than that was, and clearly I'm the best person to decide that!
And then he would have pointed to 1 Corinthians 6 -- I cannot tell you how many times I've had this quoted at me, and it's basically why I left the church in the end -- which says (NRSV):
When Danny first came forward, I had a pretty good idea how this was going to go down, having watched it before. Now that we have the details, yep, pretty much exactly what I expected. I thought the pedophile would turn out to either be on the leadership team (likely the youth minister or an assistant pastor) or a family member of the leadership team, and the investigation would be shoddy and done by someone unqualified, and would find that "nope, everything's totally fine and was handled great!", and that the children and their parents would be given no voice to speak for themselves. Check, check, check. check. Thank God for people like Danny Lavery.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:06 AM on July 7, 2020 [89 favorites]
Having worked with evangelical pastors (and done a very small amount of consulting on child protection guidelines for churches, and helped a mainline Protestant minister report a similarly bad situation in defiance of her denomination's rules at the time) -- no, absolutely not, it never occurred to him. One of the defining characteristics of American evangelicalism is a deep distrust of authorities other than the local church leadership. There are some good historical and theological reasons for this distrust, specific to various experiences of various types of evangelical groups (you can all come up with dozens of examples of bad church hierarchies off the top of your heads, I'm sure, starting with the US Catholic Church shuffling abusive priests to hide them; in general, evangelical groups ditch the bishops or other overarching leadership structure and become locally-governed for specific historical reasons that often make good sense at the time). Buuuut over time, the local leadership model in evangelical churches has become increasingly unfettered from any kind of oversight, owing to movements like urbanization and suburbanization, declining church attendance, massively increased amounts of money in evangelical circles, technology enabling megachurches and celebrity pastors, and the nearly complete divorce of evangelical Christianity in the US from science. In the "old days," a locally-governed evangelical church might serve an entire town, and nearly everyone in town attended, and the situation was more like a local school board -- it might be terribly badly managed, but it couldn't really keep secrets or get rid of malcontents and gadflies; it was a community organization governed and overseen by a whole community. That is no longer the case basically anywhere in the US, and the local community oversight model has broken as a result. It's not "all of Menlo Park" attending and invested in this church, it's "a very small handful of evangelicals who are all deeply invested in this church succeeding and feel judged by the community if it fails," and those who don't like what's happening will be encouraged to find another church community or eventually kicked out.
This has led to all manner of clusterfuckery. Evangelical church financials are typically a MESS. Embezzlement gets uncovered all the time. They break IRS rules on the regular and engage in all kinds of tax fraud, and the solution was to have lobbyists get Republicans to make the IRS stop investigating evangelical churches. Churches collapse on the regular when they get sued or fined out of existence because the pastor tied them up in some absolutely moronic financial fraud scheme, and the pastor moves on to the next church. Churches collapse on the regular because half the leadership team is having affairs with each other and get discovered. Or because the leadership team gets in snits with each other over their children's prom dates and take down the church in the resulting infighting.
The lack of effective local oversight, the ability for pastors to become celebrities, and the refusal to trust ANY kind of outside authorities creates this kind of situation all the time. There are groups and organizations doing amazing work in this space: GRACE is fantastic -- and largely ignored. There is an organization devoted to transparent, accurate financials for local evangelical churches that is great -- and mostly ignored. Attempts at oversight are now treated as secular attacks on the church, attempts to silence the word of God by using "minor" or "unimportant" problems to shame the church. I was in a Protestant seminary when the Spotlight story about US Catholic abuse broke, and the consensus was, "It is just as bad in Protestant churches, and everybody knows it." MOST mainline denominations took this as a wakeup call to clean house and update their rules to better protect children in (although the better outcome would have been to have an actual truth-and-reconciliation committee putting it all out there for the world to see, but nobody did that); most evangelical groups did not, because they saw it as a) a Catholic problem and b) a secular attack on the church. If you've never seen an evangelical church from the inside, with access to the financials and the decision-making process, it may be difficult to understand how deeeeeeeeeeply fucked up they are, especially the large and wealthy megachurches which use slick marketing to present themselves as being like Fortune 500 companies, when in fact they're all Trump real estate scams on the inside. A lot of lawyers and accountants who specialize in religious organizations flatly will not touch them as clients, because there is no way to get out of it with your hands clean, and the client is going to ignore what you tell them and continue on with the crimeing. (Honestly part of the reason Liberty University had to start a law school.)
Anyway, having dealt with a bunch of evangelical pastors over the years, and watched many many more: No. It literally never occurred to John Ortberg that he was way out of his depth. It absolutely never occurred to him that his son needed "qualified mental health care" because it's likely he doesn't "believe in" it, and even if he does, he thinks prayer and repentance is the more powerful tool, and "qualified mental health care" is for people who don't know Jesus and so CAN'T pray their way back to health. (The thought process is something like, It's in the Gospel, and the Gospel is literally true; Jesus just HEALS people who want to be healed; medical and mental health care are for people who don't truly know Jesus. It might work, sort-of, but it's just a band-aid on the problem, which is not knowing Jesus.) It never occurred to him that he might be unqualified to handle this situation -- he works for GOD (dammit!), and God will help him know what to do if he prays enough. He'd be thinking, I even exposed abuse in a church once before and was lauded as Godly! I'm definitely the best-qualified person to make this decision! This is different than that was, and clearly I'm the best person to decide that!
And then he would have pointed to 1 Corinthians 6 -- I cannot tell you how many times I've had this quoted at me, and it's basically why I left the church in the end -- which says (NRSV):
1 When any of you has a grievance against another, do you dare to take it to court before the unrighteous, instead of taking it before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters? 4 If you have ordinary cases, then, do you appoint as judges those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to decide between one believer and another, 6 but a believer goes to court against a believer—and before unbelievers at that? 7 In fact, to have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?This would have been quoted at any parents who came forward with concerns (if any bothered to; many church members would be fully bought into this system and not even thought of coming forward) and used to pressure them into silence. Church disputes can only be judged in the church -- going to secular authorities is unbiblical and sinful -- and you are better of accepting that you've been wronged or defrauded than going to secular authorities because you've been wronged or defrauded. If you go to secular authorities -- as Danny did -- you are automatically on the outs with Jesus and cut off from the church, and you are part of the system of unbelievers seeking to harm the church. It's a neat, tidy, indisputable way to discredit literally everyone who points out your extremely serious crimes. Right now, members of this church are sitting in their living rooms assuring each other, "This sounds pretty bad, but if Danny thought it was serious, he would have brought it to the church. Taking it to outsiders means he only wanted to harm the church, and therefore can't be trusted." (On top of all the other stuff they're saying because he's trans.)
When Danny first came forward, I had a pretty good idea how this was going to go down, having watched it before. Now that we have the details, yep, pretty much exactly what I expected. I thought the pedophile would turn out to either be on the leadership team (likely the youth minister or an assistant pastor) or a family member of the leadership team, and the investigation would be shoddy and done by someone unqualified, and would find that "nope, everything's totally fine and was handled great!", and that the children and their parents would be given no voice to speak for themselves. Check, check, check. check. Thank God for people like Danny Lavery.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:06 AM on July 7, 2020 [89 favorites]
Here's the relevant paragraph from the LA Times article I linked to earlier in the thread. My apologies for not realizing it was behind a paywall.
"Lavery also wrestles with his Christian upbringing — up to a recent incident that transformed his life profoundly yet again. His father, John Ortberg, a pastor at the Bay Area megachurch Menlo Church, was placed on leave from his duties in November after Lavery reported Ortberg to church elders, alleging that he had encouraged a member of his congregation with “obsessive sexual feelings about young children” to continue working with kids unsupervised. Lavery then cut ties with his biological family, and he took his wife’s last name. (His new book is published under his old name, Daniel Mallory Ortberg.)"
posted by acidnova at 10:08 AM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
"Lavery also wrestles with his Christian upbringing — up to a recent incident that transformed his life profoundly yet again. His father, John Ortberg, a pastor at the Bay Area megachurch Menlo Church, was placed on leave from his duties in November after Lavery reported Ortberg to church elders, alleging that he had encouraged a member of his congregation with “obsessive sexual feelings about young children” to continue working with kids unsupervised. Lavery then cut ties with his biological family, and he took his wife’s last name. (His new book is published under his old name, Daniel Mallory Ortberg.)"
posted by acidnova at 10:08 AM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Aha, thanks heyforfour, you’re right—I missed this sentence in the Ruth Hutchins timeline link the first time: “In the last week, I have been able to hastily rewrite the portions of my book concerning my family of origin...” I’m glad Danny had the chance to do this in addition to appending the explanatory chapter that valrus described. Considering it was released in February...eesh, what a tight timeline for revisions. But I hope it was therapeutic for him to be able to regain at least some control of his narrative from his dysfunctional, gaslighting family.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:57 AM on July 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
Thank you for commenting, Eyebrows, I was hoping you would have something to say. And wow. I thought Liberty University Law School was just to grow the next poison crop of judges.
I had been following Lavery's twitter for years, and his family seemed so happy and accepting of him before and after his transition. When I read that the split was over his own brother -- the cheerful, healthy-looking dude that Danny had tweeted pictures of years before -- it was the kind of courage that took my breath away. In a religious community, with a famous father, that's some David Kaczynski-level bravery.
And I wondered: what if it had been me? What if I found out overnight that my whole family's love and acceptance was conditional, and the condition was to assent to something like this? I can't imagine that, but I am sure Danny could not have either. Could I just do the right thing? I hope I would. I can't be certain. But Danny and Grace just walked on out of Omelas.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:00 PM on July 7, 2020 [27 favorites]
I had been following Lavery's twitter for years, and his family seemed so happy and accepting of him before and after his transition. When I read that the split was over his own brother -- the cheerful, healthy-looking dude that Danny had tweeted pictures of years before -- it was the kind of courage that took my breath away. In a religious community, with a famous father, that's some David Kaczynski-level bravery.
And I wondered: what if it had been me? What if I found out overnight that my whole family's love and acceptance was conditional, and the condition was to assent to something like this? I can't imagine that, but I am sure Danny could not have either. Could I just do the right thing? I hope I would. I can't be certain. But Danny and Grace just walked on out of Omelas.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:00 PM on July 7, 2020 [27 favorites]
I am an active member of the Presbyterian Church (USA), the denomination that Menlo Church left along with others to form their new denomination "ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians" in 2005. Being called Presbyterian is supposed to indicate that a denomination follows the Presbyterian form of government. In Presbyterianism, pastors are called "teaching elders", and their job is teaching, preaching, and pastoral care. Each congregation is run by an elected board of "ruling elders", which is called the Session.
The Session holds the purse strings and makes personnel and administrative decisions about everything at the church, through votes of the Session following Robert's Rules. The pastor serves as moderator of Session meetings, but does not have a vote on church decisions and cannot make, e.g., personnel or spending decisions on their own.
Pastors are not members of the congregation, but rather members of a Presbytery, a regional governing body that oversees their ministry. A church calls its pastors to be hired by a congregation-wide vote, but those pastors are then examined for fitness to service and approved by a vote of the presbytery (i.e., by the other pastors in the region). Presbyteries also can take disciplinary actions against pastors, with consequences including up to revocation of ordination.
All of that is to say, that in most denominations that have Presbyterian in their name, there are multiple checks and balances on the pastor's power. When ECO chose to leave the PCUSA 15 years ago, they clearly did not set up the same checks and balances, and that is likely because they wanted the powerful pastors found in other evangelical denominations. This is the result of their schism.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:08 PM on July 7, 2020 [23 favorites]
The Session holds the purse strings and makes personnel and administrative decisions about everything at the church, through votes of the Session following Robert's Rules. The pastor serves as moderator of Session meetings, but does not have a vote on church decisions and cannot make, e.g., personnel or spending decisions on their own.
Pastors are not members of the congregation, but rather members of a Presbytery, a regional governing body that oversees their ministry. A church calls its pastors to be hired by a congregation-wide vote, but those pastors are then examined for fitness to service and approved by a vote of the presbytery (i.e., by the other pastors in the region). Presbyteries also can take disciplinary actions against pastors, with consequences including up to revocation of ordination.
All of that is to say, that in most denominations that have Presbyterian in their name, there are multiple checks and balances on the pastor's power. When ECO chose to leave the PCUSA 15 years ago, they clearly did not set up the same checks and balances, and that is likely because they wanted the powerful pastors found in other evangelical denominations. This is the result of their schism.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:08 PM on July 7, 2020 [23 favorites]
To Countess Elena's point, I think what Danny and Grace did was even better -- they didn't just walk away from Omelas, they chose to stay and fight and save the children on which its prosperity depended. N.K. Jemisin has a story on this that captures the moral integrity that takes, and the cost.
posted by SandCounty at 2:30 PM on July 7, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by SandCounty at 2:30 PM on July 7, 2020 [16 favorites]
Daniel and Grace's courage is deeply inspiring.
posted by Emily's Fist at 5:06 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 5:06 PM on July 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
The Laverys are incredible admirable. I hope to have their moral courage and clarity, if I ever need it.
I saw this story in November, and the only thing I didn't understand was why John Ortberg was going to such legnths to protect a volunteer, and why the Ortbergs reacted so badly to Daniel and Grace not standing for it. When I found out who the volunteer was this past month everything fell into place. Truely awful.
Daniel Lavery has a unique talent for having books published just as he changes his name, and has a different perspective on the subject matter. The Merry Spinster first came out under his old name too [Previously], and I understand he had to do press tours under the name.
posted by Braeburn at 12:18 AM on July 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
I saw this story in November, and the only thing I didn't understand was why John Ortberg was going to such legnths to protect a volunteer, and why the Ortbergs reacted so badly to Daniel and Grace not standing for it. When I found out who the volunteer was this past month everything fell into place. Truely awful.
Daniel Lavery has a unique talent for having books published just as he changes his name, and has a different perspective on the subject matter. The Merry Spinster first came out under his old name too [Previously], and I understand he had to do press tours under the name.
posted by Braeburn at 12:18 AM on July 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
Missing in Eyebrows' otherwise super solid post supra is the gradual shift of many large evangelical churches from very good, widely distributed and transparent committee-and-board based governance to something called a "staff led church."
This happened to the mainstream Southern Baptist church I grew up in. Up through the 90s, this church was run by a set of committees plus the deacons. You could only be active on a committe for 2 years, and then you had to be off or inactive for 2 or 4 -- and this included the deacons.
Deacons were, alas, only men -- but the rest of the committees absolutely drew from women in the church. And I mean committees with power, like finance and personnel. The staff reported to these committees. The term limits meant it was important to recruit new people from the congregation to take part in the governance -- to "do your part," so to speak. It also prevented a sort of "permanent power structure" from developing, which meant an overall healthier organization.
This outline is a GREAT approach to nonprofit governance, especially local church governance. But a popular pastor convinced the church to abandon it in favor of being "staff led" in the late 90s, and it all went away as part of his ambitions to create a megachurch in a an area with, at best, about 80K people. (You're not gonna go all Joel Osteen in a town small enough to fit in a football stadium.)
A staff led church can (and WILL) hide many, many sins that would be impossible to conceal with the committee structure I outline above.
posted by uberchet at 2:44 PM on July 8, 2020 [8 favorites]
This happened to the mainstream Southern Baptist church I grew up in. Up through the 90s, this church was run by a set of committees plus the deacons. You could only be active on a committe for 2 years, and then you had to be off or inactive for 2 or 4 -- and this included the deacons.
Deacons were, alas, only men -- but the rest of the committees absolutely drew from women in the church. And I mean committees with power, like finance and personnel. The staff reported to these committees. The term limits meant it was important to recruit new people from the congregation to take part in the governance -- to "do your part," so to speak. It also prevented a sort of "permanent power structure" from developing, which meant an overall healthier organization.
This outline is a GREAT approach to nonprofit governance, especially local church governance. But a popular pastor convinced the church to abandon it in favor of being "staff led" in the late 90s, and it all went away as part of his ambitions to create a megachurch in a an area with, at best, about 80K people. (You're not gonna go all Joel Osteen in a town small enough to fit in a football stadium.)
A staff led church can (and WILL) hide many, many sins that would be impossible to conceal with the committee structure I outline above.
posted by uberchet at 2:44 PM on July 8, 2020 [8 favorites]
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posted by ocschwar at 3:02 PM on July 6, 2020 [6 favorites]