Wait for Version 3

October 23, 2020 2:07 AM

Microsoft’s new folding Surface Duo smartphone has had a mixed reception – “all the right ideas but spoiled by buggy software and a bad camera” (The Verge) and “orphaned Windows hardware makes a poor Android device” (Ars Technica) – but it remains the fulfilment of Microsoft’s dual-screen dream dating back to the ill-fated Courier tablet (previously). Meanwhile, the Surface Neo dual-screen tablet running Windows 10X (the original OS for the Surface Duo before it moved to Android) has been delayed beyond 2020.
posted by adrianhon (28 comments total)

Isn't the point of a 'folding' phone that the screen itself is supposed to fold? This has two screens, with a visible gap in between them.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 3:01 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

Cardinal Fang: yes, but the foldable display technology is half-baked at present, and prone to physical failure/creasing. Microsoft went for something achievable that wouldn't fail after a couple of months or if somebody tried to apply a screen protector, got it wrong, and peeled it off again.

I like this idea, but I really want an iPad Mini in this form factor (folds into a large-format iPhone, unfolds into 8" tablet). But that's just me.
posted by cstross at 3:19 AM on October 23, 2020 [4 favorites]

It's now two big companies that have tried high-profile, public releases of a foldable screen, and both seem to have pretty much failed. Seems we're probably close to the limit of how much glass we can carry around in our pockets. Might explain Apple's interest in augmented reality. Once the technical and privacy issues can get worked out, the screen is basically one's field of view.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:52 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

I agree the two pane foldable ipad mini would be a good form factor, but I'm a user seeking to do more things at once, not watch a movie on a larger view screen (which seems to be the driver of the fold idea) where a folding gap is an issue.

I really liked some of the UX ideas in the release live cast. The ideas of moving between apps on different screens, sharing info clicked with me. In the same way the idea of data sharing between apps clicked the first time I saw Windows 3.
But back then it was OLE and DDE and other ambitious things the hardware and uniformity of software couldn't quite deliver. Over time a lot got sorted out. Hopefully, the same will happen here.
posted by bystander at 4:41 AM on October 23, 2020

Honestly, as much as I rag on Microsoft’s software pretty much just constantly, everywhere, unprompted, I honestly find their hardware experiments really interesting! I feel like this thing is roughly a 60% price cut from being a relatively compelling design overall, but I appreciate the fact that, like, they’re actually trying to get kind of weird with it
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:23 AM on October 23, 2020 [3 favorites]

O Christ, even more gestural controls to get misinterpreted at exactly the worst times.

Do Not Want.
posted by flabdablet at 5:44 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

There are some good ideas here, unfortunately, they're more than counterbalanced by bad ideas. It seems like the Duo should have remained a prototype and given to select users to spend a serious amount of time with rather than immediately released as a product. It's quite possible that's exactly what the engineers wanted to do but the pressure to ship a product outweighed their desire not to.
posted by tommasz at 6:11 AM on October 23, 2020

O Christ, even more gestural controls to get misinterpreted at exactly the worst times.

Once again Microsoft has misinterpreted the single raised middle finger gesture as 'Hey, what a great product! Please make more!'
posted by Cardinal Fang at 6:19 AM on October 23, 2020 [3 favorites]

I know it's still vaporware, but this Surface Neo video really intrigued me. I have no idea what the advantages are for having a folding screen phone, but when it comes to embiggening it up to a tablet/laptop? Lots of cool opportunities.

Honestly the best thing about MS's new phone are those hinges. Really well engineered.
posted by nushustu at 6:59 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

Ok I am going to make a bold assumption here. The folding screen is meh, but the deal breaker is having a shitty camera.

What do people use their phones for (I mean the average person, not mefites)? Facebook, instagram and youtube, right? None of those apps require a lot of horsepower, but all of them are image centric.
posted by Literaryhero at 7:04 AM on October 23, 2020

Toshiba's final iteration of the Libretto UMPC had a second touch screen where a laptop keyboard would usually go. It was a flop, neither the software nor the hardware were up to using touch as the only input. I assumed that so much time had passed and touch technology had progressed so much that this should be possible in 2020. But MS's decision to base this on Android, which apparently can't really be adopted for this purpose, reminds me of exactly what Toshiba couldn't deal with back then with Windows XP.
posted by 1adam12 at 7:52 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

this Surface Neo video really intrigued me

Where I am on the perfect device:
- Tablets are kind of shit, both software (too many compromises in IOs and Android) and hardware. A keyboard for real work is still non-negotiable. Useful lifetime is better than before, but still a weak point.

- Laptops are getting better but they're still too inflexible in hardware and the software of Windows while capable needs professional management to be really worthwhile. MS support for retail W10 isn't really good enough yet. Battery life is much improved.

- Chromebooks have the managed environment I want. I never have to worry about system software, crashes or malware. The mechanical form factor of the ASUS flipbook is actually nicer than most laptops. The apps are still kind of shit; it's largely an Android implementation underneath with all of the inconveniences as workarounds that brings. Battery life lasts me 7-8 hours, which is (just) sufficient.

I think M365 is getting closer every release to the software environment I think I want. OneDrive is really interesting (compared to Dropbox or Google drive) in terms of flexibility and implementation for storing my stuff. The rest of the suite kills Google Docs. Storage, or lack of it is my major problem with iOS---for me that's a showstopper.

Put that on a managed device that isn't a deliberately neutered software platform (like the phone ones), with a decent battery life (implies a not tablet) and some option for a real keyboard, and I think they're close.

A W10 Surface Neo might be that.
posted by bonehead at 8:01 AM on October 23, 2020

Isn't the point of a 'folding' phone that the screen itself is supposed to fold? This has two screens, with a visible gap in between them.

The same holds true for any computer with a multi-monitor setup; When I'm working with several different apps, it's nice to have that extra screen real estate even if it isn't physically contiguous.

(And for what it's worth, Nintendo has managed to make the most of dual screens in its portable hardware for the past 15+ years.)

I've used a standard-issue smart phone for nearly a decade now, but I would love to have one that embraces both the older flip/clamshell form factor for easy pocketing and has two screens so I can work between two apps at the same time without having to resort to split-screen kludges or whatever. This doesn't seem like a terribly good implementation of that idea, but I could see it being a workable/affordable thing far sooner than waiting for Samsung to finally get flexible screen tech right at an affordable price.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:10 AM on October 23, 2020

I love the two screens and the physical execution, but the bad camera is a no-go. I don't care about a gap between screens, I have a chair and a computer (or a couch and a TV) for watching movies. I want to run a couple of apps side-by-side.

(Mark me down as someone who would like phones to have a few "perma" buttons at the bottom of the screen which could be used by various apps, and simplify gestures. I don't need a new language of flicks and swipes, kill me if I ever have to be that "productive".)
posted by maxwelton at 9:18 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

I get the urge of both manufacturers and users to turn phones into a full computer, and I read topics like this with casual interest, but that urge and these devices definitely don't match my wants.

I have a computer at home that I use for "real work", which is all I need; I have no use for another one to carry around with me. All my phone is for is separate small-needs usage where switching between applications/large screen/lots of typing isn't really a thing. While I hope other people get their "pocket computer" wish, I hope that slab form factor non-folding hand-sized phones like the current models continue to improve and to be available to people like me.

OK, I just had to get that off my chest. Carry on!
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:07 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

Maybe it is just the stuff I do, but I prefer having just one thing on screen most of the time. I am totally uninterested in multitasking/split screen on a phone or iPad, and I also prefer switching between full screen apps on my laptop rather than having a bunch of stuff sharing a desktop. I guess maybe it would be different if I had a huge screen that was just too much space for certain things.
posted by snofoam at 10:22 AM on October 23, 2020

I guess I'm too addicted to a multi-screen model. I really can't stand working on just a laptop screen these days. I need to have at least two screens, and preferably three.
posted by bonehead at 10:26 AM on October 23, 2020

Time marches somewhere else. Back in 1984, the Mac could run one app at a time. You could copy and paste between apps by quitting one and starting the other. People complained. So Multifinder was born to create a sort of multitasking. People were happier. There was just a single small screen. Eventually you could plug in a bigger screen. Then you could plug in two screens. People were happier. True multitasking came and you could run apps on either screen and happily cut and paste back and forth. Apps could have multiple open documents. Happiness reigned. Then came tablets. A single small screen. One app at a time. No multiple documents. And no real keyboard!!!! Some people were really happy with that. Breakthrough. Touch screen. Wow. And now there is a sort of Multifinder on iOS. And there are keyboards. There is even a way to get a second display connected. But as evidenced above there seems to be a feeling that tablets aren’t real computers. And maybe they’re not in the way we interact with them and the limitations on interacting with them. I think of computers as universal tools. And yeah my iphone is a camera, music synthesizer, compass, etc. but I can’t really add my own functions to it, or really modify how it works, ie. write my own programs. It’s a really big Swiss Army knife but when there’s no torqx driver too bad. What I’m trying to say is that Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny. The phone / tablet is repeating the evolution of computers in a lot of ways. I had hopes that the IPad / iPhone could be a realization of the Alan Kaye DynaBook. A modifiable computing environment you could put in your backpack. I guess it’s genes got lost along the way.
posted by njohnson23 at 10:55 AM on October 23, 2020 [2 favorites]

Ahhh, the Courier! What a dream that was. Too good for this world.

Naturally a folding screen is the future, but at present it's not possible. But working with limitations is fine and the Courier actually made a feature out of them. As I recall, the screen gap was used as a UI feature where you could stash and stick things. Drag something from one screen and it would poke out from the other, where you could grab it if you wanted, or just store it for later.

The unused space between the screens could also still (I'm just imagining now) be touch-sensitive, and used for gestures or to bring out menus and such. The brilliant thing about the Courier was that it was embracing the idea of two screens as complementary spaces, not just one larger screen. I have two monitors instead of one super-wide one because... well, because it's cheaper. But also because I like to cognitively separate my spaces into a primary and secondary, a "reading" and a "writing" screen etc. That's easier to do with a Courier than with a Galaxy Fold or what have you.

The Courier was back in the day when Microsoft was really going hard on some design stuff. It was the era of the Zune — and the Zune HD is still the best music player ever made — debate me! That design team ended up shaping the whole future of Microsoft's look and feel, though as usual MS ended up watering it down with legacy stuff and generally bungling it. Sometimes I wonder if that company has special "product sabotage" groups that work out the best way to hobble or worst way to advertise their brilliant research and design work.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 10:58 AM on October 23, 2020

a digital version of the Field Notes notebook I carry around in my back pocket

as a hardcore user of Field Notes (I have a subscription! I have dozens of notebooks I really don't need! Yes I know it's sad!) I would buy this on the strength of the form factor alone.

but not for $1,400.
posted by chavenet at 11:07 AM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

It seems like the Surface Duo (and the previous Courier) copies the form factor of a book because people love the idea of books, but the form factor of a traditional book is actually bad and not really well suited for interactions you would do with a phone/tablet.

The only reason you would want dual screens is because a single wide screen (that you can split in software) is impractical/costly/etc. but Samsung has shown that it's not impossible, and they have a better history of toughing it out with projects than Microsoft (remember the Kin?).

I thought having two monitors was vital until I got an ultrawide monitor. It's not having two monitors that I wanted, it's the screen space.
posted by meowzilla at 1:07 PM on October 23, 2020

Hey, look, it's a netbook.

No seriously can we have pocket sized netbooks back with just one screen and a decent keyboard? You can make it a touch screen if you really want to.

Wait, I already have this computer, it's a Lenovo Flex and it rules. I just wish I could get it in like a 10" screen.
posted by loquacious at 1:08 PM on October 23, 2020

I remember when the crowdfunding campaign for the Ubuntu Edge came along, and I figured that general-purpose computing (rather than the hamstrung, locked-down tablet OSes) would finally really hit handheld territory. And even though the Edge didn't make its goal, that by 2020 we'd see at least one of the major manufacturers releasing an actual general-purpose computer in this form factor.

Unfortunately, I was wrong. The convergence is clearly toward LESS functional operating systems, and the Desktop OSes are getting tablet-ified.

Soon enough you'll have to root everything to put your own hosts file, or run your own local proxies, or install a full UI reskinning app like rainmeter.

I remember when the internet and modern computing was going to take advantage of the long tail. But, turns out that was a flash in the pan. Marketing and algorithmification have just turned everything into a sieve that punishes you in subtle but ever more pernicious ways the further your desires stray from the mean of the userbase.
posted by tclark at 1:40 PM on October 23, 2020 [1 favorite]

It seems like all the problems with the duo are solvable within a generation or two? Just put a better camera in there, shrink the bezels, and put in one of those edge to edge screens that sumsung had a few years ago that suck on phones but make sense next to this hinge. The biggest challenge feels like app adoption of dual screen support, but I'm guessing that will happen as foldable support gets built out. I'm pretty sure android already has an API for that.

To me, a hinge gap between two flat slabs feels way nicer than a foldable screen. I'm predicting that the materials needed for foldable screens that don't feel shitty are either impossible or much more than a few generations away.
posted by cirrostratus at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2020

In 5 years, after Apple has released their own folding screen device, we'll all look back and declare: "Of course it had to be done like this - - it's only natural!"
posted by fairmettle at 10:44 PM on October 23, 2020

Then came tablets. A single small screen. One app at a time. No multiple documents. And no real keyboard!!!! Some people were really happy with that. Breakthrough. Touch screen. Wow.

Monorail!!!

oh how I loathe and detest touch screens
posted by flabdablet at 4:19 AM on October 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

The past decade has convinced me that touch screens are the absolute worst. Screens that twitch and quver like skittish insects, that sometimes read one thing, sometimes another, sometimes instantly, sometimes with just enough delay that you're not certain what happened. No meaningful feedback, no satisfying feedback just a buzz or a random click, that seems deliberately chosen to remind you that this thing in your palm is flighty and alien, trapped behind that thin wafer of glass.
posted by bonehead at 5:10 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]

So far I've been unimpressed by everything Surface branded.

The Surface tablet/laptop/things run crazy hot, for the specs they have they run dog slow, and they're prone to weird failures that may, or may not, be related to the fact that you literally can't load up real drivers and have to wait for MS to release their own super duper special Surface only drivers.

I support about 6 of the damn things, and they can't run Teams and anything else without going choppy. And they've got 8gb RAM and an intel i5 processor, running Teams + Word, or Teams + Edge shouldn't cause them to lag out, but it does.

Worse, one of them recently just stopped acknolwedging when it had external monitors plugged into its docking station. The problem wasn't the docking station, I tried it on a spare, same problem. The problem wasn't that Windows 10 had gotten corrupted, I tried a complete wipe and reinstall of Windows 10, not just a refresh but formatted the drive down to bare metal and installed from scratch. It just won't admit that external monitors exist no matter what.

And this, apparently, is a known problem that many other people have as the MS forums all have multiple threads from people who have a Surface that has just stopped talking to external monitors and there flatly is not a solution.

And let's not even get into the ARM bullshit that MS put in on some models. Want to install a printer? HA SUCKER! There are no ARM drivers and never will be!

So, yeah.

The fact that a phone branded as Surface anything is a steaming pile of shit is totally unsurprising. Everything named Surface is a steaming pile of shit.
posted by sotonohito at 8:14 AM on October 24, 2020 [1 favorite]