Flamin' Not
May 16, 2021 3:20 PM Subscribe
“None of our records show that Richard was involved in any capacity in the Flamin’ Hot test market,” Frito-Lay wrote in a statement to The Times, in response to questions about an internal investigation whose existence has not been previously disclosed. “We have interviewed multiple personnel who were involved in the test market, and all of them indicate that Richard was not involved in any capacity in the test market. ... “That doesn’t mean we don’t celebrate Richard,” the statement continued, “but the facts do not support the urban legend.” from The man who didn’t invent Flamin’ Hot Cheetos [LAT, alternate link] [Previously]
the capitalist dream writ large
posted by lalochezia at 3:45 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 3:45 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Maybe he meant to say he invented Takis
posted by I paid money to offer this... insight? at 4:05 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by I paid money to offer this... insight? at 4:05 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
I gotta give this guy credit for hustle and self-promotion. Biopic! Book! Lecture circuit! So what if it's based on an exaggeration? According to the story he really was an executive inventing foods and influencing Frito-Lay's marketing, particularly in Latinx communities. The article says he was involved in developing and testing Flamin’ Hot Popcorn and Flamin’ Hot Fritos. So heck, maybe he wasn't one with Chester, but close enough. I've seen plenty of folks in the tech industry self-promote on the basis of a whole lot less than that.
posted by Nelson at 4:49 PM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 4:49 PM on May 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
holy shit this is a long article
i hope somebody got a doctorate in something for this
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:51 PM on May 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
i hope somebody got a doctorate in something for this
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:51 PM on May 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Urban legend" is a VERY tactful way to put it.
I was interested to read how snack product development was done and how they just looked at what other people were selling rather than finding out if people really wanted to eat any of that or what they would actually like to eat. Maybe people gave that guy's story so much attention because the idea that they make these decisions based on what people like sounds so appealing. It makes me think about how I was reading about how in Japan they just throw every flavor at the wall at the same time and just make more of the ones people like. I'd much rather live in that kind of market.
posted by bleep at 5:02 PM on May 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
I was interested to read how snack product development was done and how they just looked at what other people were selling rather than finding out if people really wanted to eat any of that or what they would actually like to eat. Maybe people gave that guy's story so much attention because the idea that they make these decisions based on what people like sounds so appealing. It makes me think about how I was reading about how in Japan they just throw every flavor at the wall at the same time and just make more of the ones people like. I'd much rather live in that kind of market.
posted by bleep at 5:02 PM on May 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
The Lime and Chile Fritos, which everyone seems to agree he did develop, sound delicious. I may order a bag.
posted by eye of newt at 5:17 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by eye of newt at 5:17 PM on May 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Now you think Ronald McDonald gonna go down in that basement and say, "Hey, Mista Nugget, you the bomb. We sellin' chicken faster than you can tear the bone out. So I'm gonna write my clowny-ass name on this fat-ass check for you"?
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:20 PM on May 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:20 PM on May 16, 2021 [19 favorites]
Thanks for sharing. To be honest it stings to find out the truth. It hurts to be deceived and to think of all the true amazing stories that could have received the attention instead. Also this story does not improve my already negative perceptions of the marketing profession.
posted by mundo at 5:58 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by mundo at 5:58 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
The thing that makes me shake my head is that the real story is at least as good as the embellished one, if not more so! A janitor pitching a good but unsuccessful product and working his way up to an executive is a more complicated but ultimately more inspiring story to me than an overnight success story.
posted by cali at 6:31 PM on May 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by cali at 6:31 PM on May 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
According to the story he really was an executive inventing foods and influencing Frito-Lay's marketing,
Well, part of the appeal of his modern-day Horatio Alger narrative is that he was a "lowly" janitor when he came up with the idea and bravely pitched it to the President, who was so taken with Alvarez's gumption that it began a meteoric rise to success. When in fact he was a long-time machinery operator (not a janitor) who did pitch an idea (but not the one he claims, and in fact a couple years after others had created it) to some execs (but not the ones he claims) which then lead to him developing other several products as part of a team (although obviously lime & chili is his idea), and ascending to a "director-level position" in 2002 that he held for 17 yrs. Which is, admittedly, still pretty impressive, but not the narrative he's selling. It's not James Frey A Million Little Pieces level of duplicity, but the investigation suggests he's inflating his story and taking credit for the work of some other people so the story pops on the lecture circuit.
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:42 PM on May 16, 2021 [14 favorites]
Well, part of the appeal of his modern-day Horatio Alger narrative is that he was a "lowly" janitor when he came up with the idea and bravely pitched it to the President, who was so taken with Alvarez's gumption that it began a meteoric rise to success. When in fact he was a long-time machinery operator (not a janitor) who did pitch an idea (but not the one he claims, and in fact a couple years after others had created it) to some execs (but not the ones he claims) which then lead to him developing other several products as part of a team (although obviously lime & chili is his idea), and ascending to a "director-level position" in 2002 that he held for 17 yrs. Which is, admittedly, still pretty impressive, but not the narrative he's selling. It's not James Frey A Million Little Pieces level of duplicity, but the investigation suggests he's inflating his story and taking credit for the work of some other people so the story pops on the lecture circuit.
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:42 PM on May 16, 2021 [14 favorites]
He also seems to change the story several times, like at his friends funeral where he changes it from he pitched the CEO to he pitched his friend.
If I was exaggerating the story of my snack food marketing career, I'd be afraid to have it made into a movie because surely then, with all the extra attention, the truth would come out. But that's why I'm not famous I guess.
posted by subdee at 7:27 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
If I was exaggerating the story of my snack food marketing career, I'd be afraid to have it made into a movie because surely then, with all the extra attention, the truth would come out. But that's why I'm not famous I guess.
posted by subdee at 7:27 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
The quote “None of our records show that Richard was involved in any capacity in the Flamin’ Hot test market,” does not necessarily seem damning to me.
posted by chaz at 9:00 PM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by chaz at 9:00 PM on May 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
How about the quotes from the woman who actually led the team that developed the product, who came up with the name, and who is pointing out this man who had nothing to do with it is now taking all the credit for himself?
posted by theory at 9:14 PM on May 16, 2021 [27 favorites]
posted by theory at 9:14 PM on May 16, 2021 [27 favorites]
You'll know if he invented it by looking at his fingers and under his finger nails. If there is orange powder then it was him.
posted by AugustWest at 9:20 PM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 9:20 PM on May 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Super awkward that this came out just three days after Planet Money did a story on this guy. The Planet Money reporter, Sarah Gonzalez, was careful to note that they did try to fact check the story and that Frito-Lay was unable to corroborate any of Montañez's claims, but said that the company claimed not to have any records of the time. Sounds like Frito-Lay didn't tell Planet Money about the investigation they had done...
posted by phoenixy at 10:37 PM on May 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by phoenixy at 10:37 PM on May 16, 2021 [8 favorites]
I gotta give this guy credit for hustle and self-promotion. Biopic! Book! Lecture circuit! So what if it's based on an exaggeration?
It's not an exaggeration, it's a lie.
And according to the article it was Lynne Greenfield a woman who was "fresh out of the MBA program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill" who came up with the idea, and "worked with Frito-Lay’s packaging and product design teams to come up with the right flavor mix and branding for the bags."
Understandably she doesn't seem to be so thrilled with his hustle and self-promotion:
posted by jeremias at 3:14 AM on May 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
It's not an exaggeration, it's a lie.
And according to the article it was Lynne Greenfield a woman who was "fresh out of the MBA program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill" who came up with the idea, and "worked with Frito-Lay’s packaging and product design teams to come up with the right flavor mix and branding for the bags."
Understandably she doesn't seem to be so thrilled with his hustle and self-promotion:
It is disappointing that 20 years later, someone who played no role in this project would begin to claim our experience as his own and then personally profit from it.That story is definitely a familiar one: young, competent woman gets written out of history.
posted by jeremias at 3:14 AM on May 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
The quote “None of our records show that Richard was involved in any capacity in the Flamin’ Hot test market,” does not necessarily seem damning to me.
What about the fact that the product was developed in 1989, appeared in test markets by 1990, but Montañez didn't give his pitch (to his supervisor, not the CEO, who was not the CEO of Frito-Lay at the time) until 1992?
And later he posted to his blog, a photo of a page of notebook paper with different flavors written on it, dated 1988, but later deleted that post?
He worked on a different regional product line, that isn't as famous/successful as the Flamin' Hot line, and he decided to spice up (heh) his story, and he got caught.
Maybe Frito-Lay isn't saying anything because they also think the story about the minority janitor pitching the CEO a famous product line is a better story than the truth that it was a group effort lead by a female MBA.
posted by subdee at 5:48 AM on May 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
What about the fact that the product was developed in 1989, appeared in test markets by 1990, but Montañez didn't give his pitch (to his supervisor, not the CEO, who was not the CEO of Frito-Lay at the time) until 1992?
And later he posted to his blog, a photo of a page of notebook paper with different flavors written on it, dated 1988, but later deleted that post?
He worked on a different regional product line, that isn't as famous/successful as the Flamin' Hot line, and he decided to spice up (heh) his story, and he got caught.
Maybe Frito-Lay isn't saying anything because they also think the story about the minority janitor pitching the CEO a famous product line is a better story than the truth that it was a group effort lead by a female MBA.
posted by subdee at 5:48 AM on May 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Why is it that I can get Baked Flamin' Hot Crunchy Cheetos, and Simply Crunchy White Cheddar Cheetos, and Cheddar Jalapeno Crunchy Cheetos, but not Simply Baked Flamin' Hot White Cheddar Jalapeno Crunchy Cheetos?
I don't care if they're invented by a management team or a plucky janitor or a guy in a cheetah suit (okay, maybe I would slightly prefer it's not a guy in a cheetah suit), there's a few more inches of shelf space to be claimed here.
And yet Cheetos-branded macaroni and cheese is a thing that exists.
posted by box at 7:35 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't care if they're invented by a management team or a plucky janitor or a guy in a cheetah suit (okay, maybe I would slightly prefer it's not a guy in a cheetah suit), there's a few more inches of shelf space to be claimed here.
And yet Cheetos-branded macaroni and cheese is a thing that exists.
posted by box at 7:35 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Disappointed, but on the other hand UNC-Chapel Hill represent !
posted by freecellwizard at 8:58 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by freecellwizard at 8:58 AM on May 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Commenting to add nothing about the article except to say I forwarded it to my youngest son. When I was 27, I moved in with his dad and went, overnight, from being an east coast gay nightlife party boy to a west coast stepdad. My youngest was about to turn 6 at the time, and is about to turn 20 now. The very first full week I was their, his bio-dad had a work trip that left me at home solo with the kids. I was nervous, but I definitely was saying to myself, "I can do this. I can do this. I can do this." Less than an hour after the start of solo stepdad time, I hear littlest kiddo screaming (shrieking, really) from the bathroom. I rush to the closed door, as if he's ok, and proceed to talk him down from a hyperventilating panic attack about something, but I can't understand his words and he's got the door locked. I hear something about "bloody toilet," and I tell him, man, you've got to unlock the door so I can help. When he finally does this, with a red, blotchy, tear-streaked face, he says, "I am dying. I am going to die. I pooped out blood, the whole toilet is blood, but don't look because it's poop!" And he meant it! I was thinking, holy shit, ok, stay calm, just flip up the lid and see if we're talking a little blip of blood or like a scary amount of blood before we go to the ER or call an ambulance. So I flip up the lid and... I say, buddy, you're ok. That's not blood. What have you been eating today?" And he thinks for a moment... "Flamin' Hot Cheetos." Aaand scene.
Since then, movie gore (etc.) is always referred to as Cheetos in our interpersonal code language.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 11:11 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
Since then, movie gore (etc.) is always referred to as Cheetos in our interpersonal code language.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 11:11 AM on May 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
The bummer part of the story seems to be that if you just substitute in "Sobrasitas" or "Flamin' Hot Popcorn" much of it is verifiably true (if dialed up for effect over the years). He didn't finish high school and started at an entry level position in the factory, a new CEO came in and invited people to take ownership, he did just that and pitched new ideas to the company, they let him run with some product development stuff, he got creative without a budget and went to tupperware parties, and then he successfully transitioned to a director-level role and had a good second career in an office.
Being the plucky guy who invented a now-defunct line extension is not as sexy, I guess. After all, Katy Perry never dressed up like Sorasitas for Halloween.
posted by AgentRocket at 11:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
Being the plucky guy who invented a now-defunct line extension is not as sexy, I guess. After all, Katy Perry never dressed up like Sorasitas for Halloween.
posted by AgentRocket at 11:36 AM on May 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
FYI - the Planet Money reporter just issued a long Twitter thread where she shares direct statements made to her by Frito-Lay, and implies that they made different claims to the two different journalists.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:02 PM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:02 PM on May 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
FYI - the Planet Money reporter just issued a long Twitter thread where she shares direct statements made to her by Frito-Lay, and implies that they made different claims to the two different journalists.
Some interesting energy in that thread.
Frito-Lay is a company, not one person. It's not going to have an official position on how ex-employees describe their resumes. If one reporter does a good job working sources and following leads, and the other e-mails the company spokesperson you're going to get different claims. "Frito-Lay did not directly deny Montañez’s involvement in creating Hot Cheetos" is not anything close to a confirmation.
Having listened to the Planet Money piece right now I think there are signs that they believed there was a lot of potential exaggeration going on, such as multiple references to lack of documentation. Add in the twitter comment that they sent Frito-Lay "multiple direct questions and invitations [to call Montanez a liar]" and OK. The problem is the overall tone is that this is a gee-whiz amazing story and Montanez gets to tell it in his own words. You don't get credit for being secretly skeptical if you still air a piece of puffery like this.
Planet Money didn't do anything worse here than a million Jack Welch, Steve Jobs or Elon Musk stories before them, but the bottom line is they were just totally out-reported by the LA Times here. Blaming the company for not hand-feeding you the real story is kind of weak.
My other take home from listening to the Planet Money bit alongside the LA Times story is that my god, Montanez is a total bullshitter.
posted by mark k at 7:11 PM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
Some interesting energy in that thread.
Frito-Lay is a company, not one person. It's not going to have an official position on how ex-employees describe their resumes. If one reporter does a good job working sources and following leads, and the other e-mails the company spokesperson you're going to get different claims. "Frito-Lay did not directly deny Montañez’s involvement in creating Hot Cheetos" is not anything close to a confirmation.
Having listened to the Planet Money piece right now I think there are signs that they believed there was a lot of potential exaggeration going on, such as multiple references to lack of documentation. Add in the twitter comment that they sent Frito-Lay "multiple direct questions and invitations [to call Montanez a liar]" and OK. The problem is the overall tone is that this is a gee-whiz amazing story and Montanez gets to tell it in his own words. You don't get credit for being secretly skeptical if you still air a piece of puffery like this.
Planet Money didn't do anything worse here than a million Jack Welch, Steve Jobs or Elon Musk stories before them, but the bottom line is they were just totally out-reported by the LA Times here. Blaming the company for not hand-feeding you the real story is kind of weak.
My other take home from listening to the Planet Money bit alongside the LA Times story is that my god, Montanez is a total bullshitter.
posted by mark k at 7:11 PM on May 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
This story (the original “origin” story, not the debunking) has been passed around a ton on social media over the past few months, I’ve seen it a bunch on LinkedIn specifically. I can’t claim to have “known it all along” or anything, but the story always did come with kind of an uncomfortable “bootstraps” message. “This guy came from nothing and became a huge success due to his own ingenuity and drive, what’s your problem, Loser?”. Sort of unsurprising to find out it was mostly invented out of whole cloth or at least greatly exaggerated.
posted by The Gooch at 10:27 AM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The Gooch at 10:27 AM on May 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
PEPSICO Says “Media Misconstrued” Info on Flamin’ Hot Cheetos Creation
A great deal has been recently discussed about the origin of Flamin’ Hot Cheetos. The information we shared with the media has been misconstrued by some, which resulted in confusion around where we stand, a range of emotions among our employees and consumers and a strain on our valued friendship with Richard Montanez and the Latino community.posted by Nelson at 6:32 AM on May 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
The sincere truth is, at PepsiCo, we believe in the strength and power of teams, and we attribute the launch and success of Flamin’ Hot Cheetos and other products to several people who worked at PepsiCo, including Richard Montanez.
... Different work streams tackling the same product without interacting occasionally occurred in the past when divisions operated independently and were not the best at communicating ...
Thanks for the update. I wonder if the invention of Flamin’ Hot Cheetos will turn into an academic debate similar to who invented calculus .
posted by mundo at 9:53 AM on May 22, 2021
posted by mundo at 9:53 AM on May 22, 2021
The Pepsi statement seems to confirm the LA Times version of the story, buried behind polite corporate-speak that has no desire to mess with a motivational speaker and upcoming movie that nets them free PR. The key point to me:
We also know there was a separate division team developing a spicy product offering for Cheetos and other snack brands [ . . . ] including Flamin’ Hot Cheetos.
I don't know how this is being played in other places, but the LA Times story was clear that Montanez was definitely a guy who with a remarkable rise to VP and pitching ideas and developing products in this area, but not the direct parent of Flaimn' Hot Cheetos, which were led by Lynne Greenfield. They aren't disputing that--they are basically confirming it.
If I wanted to phrase this even more cynically that the statement's subtext is "we believe the Latinx demographic is more important to us than the white-women-with-an-MBA demographic so we'd prefer you forgot about Ms. Greenfield."
posted by mark k at 4:30 PM on May 22, 2021
We also know there was a separate division team developing a spicy product offering for Cheetos and other snack brands [ . . . ] including Flamin’ Hot Cheetos.
I don't know how this is being played in other places, but the LA Times story was clear that Montanez was definitely a guy who with a remarkable rise to VP and pitching ideas and developing products in this area, but not the direct parent of Flaimn' Hot Cheetos, which were led by Lynne Greenfield. They aren't disputing that--they are basically confirming it.
If I wanted to phrase this even more cynically that the statement's subtext is "we believe the Latinx demographic is more important to us than the white-women-with-an-MBA demographic so we'd prefer you forgot about Ms. Greenfield."
posted by mark k at 4:30 PM on May 22, 2021
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posted by Mr. Yuck at 3:37 PM on May 16, 2021 [4 favorites]