Cars 3 + Cars 2, Still Bringing Up the Rear
June 21, 2021 3:56 PM Subscribe
Coco > WALL-E. Fight me.
posted by jquinby at 4:34 PM on June 21, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by jquinby at 4:34 PM on June 21, 2021 [18 favorites]
The thing that was so amazing about Pixar was the sheer joy and originality that their films brought to audiences of all ages. Toy Story, Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatouille, Wall-E, Coco, these were all really good, and did interesting things that mainstream hollywood hadn't done in a long long time.
I remember the exact moment I knew Pixar wasn't going to be some flash in the pan: after they had already done some really, really good storytelling with Toy Story, they had probably the funniest movie of the year with Finding Nemo. But the exact moment that things went from really good to capital-G Great was when the camera took us inside the whale. Telling this harrowing, scary, sad, hilarious tale of a person trying to overcome the greatest of odds, both within himself and without, and then showing that with a nod to both Pinocchio and Jonas? *chef's kiss*
And again, in The Incredibles, when Bob Parr is about to lay out his pain to his family, his regret and his redoubled efforts to save the day: a scene that has been done only about a billion times. It's always cringey, because it's always so obvious in its fishing for an emotional output from the audience. To then cut the scene short by having his teenage daughter say "yeah yeah, we all know this scene, we know it's dramatically necessary to get to the next part, let's all just pretend it happened and move on to the good, non-cringey stuff."
And the first half of Wall-E. Half an hour of effectively a silent film, a romance, set in a dystopian hellscape. For kids. Frigging amazing.
Pixar used to do so much great, genre-bending, unanticipated stuff. It still does good stuff (Luca was pretty damn good) but I haven't been crazy delighted by them for years.
posted by nushustu at 4:36 PM on June 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
I remember the exact moment I knew Pixar wasn't going to be some flash in the pan: after they had already done some really, really good storytelling with Toy Story, they had probably the funniest movie of the year with Finding Nemo. But the exact moment that things went from really good to capital-G Great was when the camera took us inside the whale. Telling this harrowing, scary, sad, hilarious tale of a person trying to overcome the greatest of odds, both within himself and without, and then showing that with a nod to both Pinocchio and Jonas? *chef's kiss*
And again, in The Incredibles, when Bob Parr is about to lay out his pain to his family, his regret and his redoubled efforts to save the day: a scene that has been done only about a billion times. It's always cringey, because it's always so obvious in its fishing for an emotional output from the audience. To then cut the scene short by having his teenage daughter say "yeah yeah, we all know this scene, we know it's dramatically necessary to get to the next part, let's all just pretend it happened and move on to the good, non-cringey stuff."
And the first half of Wall-E. Half an hour of effectively a silent film, a romance, set in a dystopian hellscape. For kids. Frigging amazing.
Pixar used to do so much great, genre-bending, unanticipated stuff. It still does good stuff (Luca was pretty damn good) but I haven't been crazy delighted by them for years.
posted by nushustu at 4:36 PM on June 21, 2021 [10 favorites]
The Incredibles was so good we saw it three times in the theater. However it also contained the seeds of Pixar’s greatest weakness: their repetitive over-reliance on weepy stories for and about dads. There’s a familial conservatism to Pixar that started emerging around 15 years ago and seems to have gotten stronger since. Meanwhile their protégés at re-formed Disney Animation have been putting out amazing stuff like Moana.
posted by migurski at 5:03 PM on June 21, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by migurski at 5:03 PM on June 21, 2021 [14 favorites]
Pixar has industry low pay for their location, and was caught in a wage fixing scheme not all that long ago. Perhaps there's a correlation between that and the more lackluster modern films?
I would love to know the list of people that left Pixar and ended up taking their creativity elsewhere.
posted by SunSnork at 5:06 PM on June 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
I would love to know the list of people that left Pixar and ended up taking their creativity elsewhere.
posted by SunSnork at 5:06 PM on June 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
The only ordering that matters to me is my kids ranked choice preferences (and we need ranked choice because multiple kids will never pick a first round mutually acceptable movie - we're talking full on single transferable voting up in here).
Also, the closer to being ranked #1 the more times I will have to watch it. Friends, I'm here to tell you I damn well know the script to The Good Dinosaur by heart. Inside Out a close second.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:06 PM on June 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also, the closer to being ranked #1 the more times I will have to watch it. Friends, I'm here to tell you I damn well know the script to The Good Dinosaur by heart. Inside Out a close second.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:06 PM on June 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile their protégés at re-formed Disney Animation have been putting out amazing stuff like Moana.
Yah it's been really interesting seeing Disney Animation Studio take the mantle from Pixar for good, interesting stories for kids and adults alike: Tangled, Zootopia, Wreck-It-Ralph, Moana. (The ending of Moana especially. It's really nice to get a dramatic ending to a "battle" that doesn't require punching and/or explosions.)
posted by nushustu at 5:26 PM on June 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yah it's been really interesting seeing Disney Animation Studio take the mantle from Pixar for good, interesting stories for kids and adults alike: Tangled, Zootopia, Wreck-It-Ralph, Moana. (The ending of Moana especially. It's really nice to get a dramatic ending to a "battle" that doesn't require punching and/or explosions.)
posted by nushustu at 5:26 PM on June 21, 2021 [7 favorites]
That ProZD list is super solid. I don't entirely agree with it, but he nails it with how tightly written the earlier Pixar films are, compared with the "Pixel middle-ocrity" that you so often see today.
posted by nushustu at 6:10 PM on June 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 6:10 PM on June 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
However it also contained the seeds of Pixar’s greatest weakness: their repetitive over-reliance on weepy stories for and about dads.
I’ve been a lot less comfortable with how Up affects me after I realized that the opening sequence is, if not women-in-refrigerators material, then immediately adjacent to that, a slow knife version.
posted by mhoye at 6:15 PM on June 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
I’ve been a lot less comfortable with how Up affects me after I realized that the opening sequence is, if not women-in-refrigerators material, then immediately adjacent to that, a slow knife version.
posted by mhoye at 6:15 PM on June 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Pixar movies ranked using the metric they obviously most care about: top 10 in order of sadness
1. Up [saddest]
2. Toy Story 3
3. Inside Out
4. Coco
5. Toy Story 2
6. Wall-E
7. Soul
8. Onward
9. Finding Nemo
10. Monsters Inc. [kitty!]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:21 PM on June 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
1. Up [saddest]
2. Toy Story 3
3. Inside Out
4. Coco
5. Toy Story 2
6. Wall-E
7. Soul
8. Onward
9. Finding Nemo
10. Monsters Inc. [kitty!]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:21 PM on June 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Fun comparing and contrasting the proZD and written lists (which are very similar). I like his defense of Soul, in that it introduces a really amazing lead character and moral premise and then essentially wastes it with antics.
posted by q*ben at 6:28 PM on June 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by q*ben at 6:28 PM on June 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
it introduces a really amazing lead character and moral premise and then essentially wastes it with antics
See also: Inside Out.
Fight me.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:05 PM on June 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
See also: Inside Out.
Fight me.
posted by saturday_morning at 7:05 PM on June 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
Late Pixar movies have this quality where everything has been polished (sanded?) down so much it loses authenticity. Watching Soul, which was an okay movie, I got the sense that if the ‘camera’ accidentally panned away from the scene there wouldn’t be anything there. As though everything in the world of the movie was on camera right at that moment. I think this is probably the result of Pixar’s method of movie development (endless workshopping) but they have gotten so good at it it’s sucks the life out of their movies. I want to see some rough edges, some reminders that what I’m watching was actually made by real life humans. Traditional animation and love action films are filled with these queues and they often make the movie richer.
posted by TurnKey at 7:16 PM on June 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by TurnKey at 7:16 PM on June 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
The most recent Film Club podcast was on the subject of "Why isn't Pixar as good as it used to be?" They pointed out that Pixar's output so far can be divided pretty neatly, chronologically, into two almost-equal groups: the "Golden Age" from Toy Story through Toy Story 3 (11 films from 1995–2010), and the subsequent age of hits and misses (13 films from 2011–present). They also dove into what differentiates the two categories. It's a good listen.
posted by Johnny Assay at 8:09 PM on June 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Johnny Assay at 8:09 PM on June 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wall-E is high on my personal “Things That People Love That For Reasons Inexplicable Do Not Work For Me” list.
Coco? Ratatouille? Inside Out? Near perfection
posted by thivaia at 8:47 PM on June 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Coco? Ratatouille? Inside Out? Near perfection
posted by thivaia at 8:47 PM on June 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Contrarily, I like Wall-E but I just couldn't get into Inside Out - I'm not sure why. Different strokes...
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:53 PM on June 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:53 PM on June 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
I just realized Coco is the only Pixar movie I’ve watched more than once.
posted by girlmightlive at 9:00 PM on June 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by girlmightlive at 9:00 PM on June 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Coco is at the top of my Pixar list. Even on just a visual level, it’s stunning. But the story, the connection to family, the richness of the characters, they just created such a warm and fulfilling world, even if the payoff leaves you a wreck. Seeing Coco’s pic on the altar hit as hard as her memories being brought back by music. I grew up in a Mexican neighborhood (there was only one other white family on the block) and all of those exchanges between family members, the chancla, everything... it’s so perfect.
I love Cars, and I’m not going to pretend it’s a great movie or one of their best efforts. But we’ve always been huge fans of roadside Americana, which still continues its march into the farthest corners of the American memory. We’ve talked with a number of owners of shops on Route 66, and they remember what life was like before the interstate bypassed everything. The Cars writers spent a lot of time talking to them as well. The movie is a love letter to the places by the side of the road that were once a part of everyone’s road trip. Seligman, AZ is pretty much Radiator Springs.
posted by azpenguin at 9:14 PM on June 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
I love Cars, and I’m not going to pretend it’s a great movie or one of their best efforts. But we’ve always been huge fans of roadside Americana, which still continues its march into the farthest corners of the American memory. We’ve talked with a number of owners of shops on Route 66, and they remember what life was like before the interstate bypassed everything. The Cars writers spent a lot of time talking to them as well. The movie is a love letter to the places by the side of the road that were once a part of everyone’s road trip. Seligman, AZ is pretty much Radiator Springs.
posted by azpenguin at 9:14 PM on June 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
I have seen only three Pixar movies so I don't know why I'm even responding in this thread. Apologies. Nevertheless I have strong opinions, and my definitive ranking of all the Pixar movies (that I've seen) is:
1. Coco
2. Ratatouille
3. Wall-E
I suspect that I'd put the Toy Story films somewhere between Ratatouille and Wall-E. I think all of the Cars films would be at the bottom of the list because I'm not really interested in cars and the machismo associated with them. From what I've heard about it, Inside Out would probably go right below Ratatouille and I've been making it a point to check it for a long time, so I might just do that in the near future, thanks to this post.
posted by treepour at 9:40 PM on June 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
1. Coco
2. Ratatouille
3. Wall-E
I suspect that I'd put the Toy Story films somewhere between Ratatouille and Wall-E. I think all of the Cars films would be at the bottom of the list because I'm not really interested in cars and the machismo associated with them. From what I've heard about it, Inside Out would probably go right below Ratatouille and I've been making it a point to check it for a long time, so I might just do that in the near future, thanks to this post.
posted by treepour at 9:40 PM on June 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm really happy to know how much joy Pixar has brought people over the years.
And maybe here I can share how little I've shared that joy. For me Pixar movies rank around where MCU movies do: good, sometimes even really good, but never great. There's a formulaic quality to them, and more importantly, a pretty deep vein of conservatism that tends to rub me in the wrong way.
There’s a familial conservatism to Pixar that started emerging around 15 years ago and seems to have gotten stronger since.
That's definitely a big part of it for me. There's also an undercurrent of how most of our problems can be solved by just "getting back to basics", rather than most of our problems being legitimately difficult and requiring creative humanity. I really liked Wall-E, but I think it's also misleading to reduce the root cause of our environmental problems to just apathy and consumerism... it's a very privileged view on these challenges. Then there's that weird Randian stuff in The Incredibles...
I'll let myself out now.
posted by Alex404 at 9:47 PM on June 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
And maybe here I can share how little I've shared that joy. For me Pixar movies rank around where MCU movies do: good, sometimes even really good, but never great. There's a formulaic quality to them, and more importantly, a pretty deep vein of conservatism that tends to rub me in the wrong way.
There’s a familial conservatism to Pixar that started emerging around 15 years ago and seems to have gotten stronger since.
That's definitely a big part of it for me. There's also an undercurrent of how most of our problems can be solved by just "getting back to basics", rather than most of our problems being legitimately difficult and requiring creative humanity. I really liked Wall-E, but I think it's also misleading to reduce the root cause of our environmental problems to just apathy and consumerism... it's a very privileged view on these challenges. Then there's that weird Randian stuff in The Incredibles...
I'll let myself out now.
posted by Alex404 at 9:47 PM on June 21, 2021 [8 favorites]
I agree about the Randian stuff in The Incredibles, it keeps me from enjoying it. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Syndrome's sinister plot is to kill superheroes, which is bad, but also to give everyone superpowers, and that's also a bad thing? He says, sinisterly, if everyone's special then no one will be, but, still, everyone will have superpowers! I mean, sure, that means more supervillians too, but also more heroes? And if he's going to do that then why is he bothering to kill heroes anyway?
There's this weird thing where the government fucking erases people's memories to hide superheroes from people, and it's played for laughs. I mean, the transgressiveness of it gives it some of its comedy, sure, but it's still pretty dark, and yet all the superheroes just accept it. In Incredibles 2 some of that is addressed with Violet's crush, but then the movie goes and has most of the parents mind-controlled for half the film, which has got to be really upsetting for the kids watching, and the list doesn't even mention that.
posted by JHarris at 10:58 PM on June 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
There's this weird thing where the government fucking erases people's memories to hide superheroes from people, and it's played for laughs. I mean, the transgressiveness of it gives it some of its comedy, sure, but it's still pretty dark, and yet all the superheroes just accept it. In Incredibles 2 some of that is addressed with Violet's crush, but then the movie goes and has most of the parents mind-controlled for half the film, which has got to be really upsetting for the kids watching, and the list doesn't even mention that.
posted by JHarris at 10:58 PM on June 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
The first 15 min or so of UP are cinematic brilliance. No talking, just showing. You get to know two characters, you get attached to them, and then you grieve with them. I cried.
Honestly, while the rest of the movie looks good, to me it feels very much tacked on. Talking dogs, wacky birds, naive asian side-kick, megalomaniacal villain; none of them add anything.
UP should have been a short.
posted by Sourisnoire at 2:21 AM on June 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
Honestly, while the rest of the movie looks good, to me it feels very much tacked on. Talking dogs, wacky birds, naive asian side-kick, megalomaniacal villain; none of them add anything.
UP should have been a short.
posted by Sourisnoire at 2:21 AM on June 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
The Vulture list is much more coherent and I simply agree with it more, with a few notable exceptions. They listed Coco waaay too low; that movie is at the very least top ten material, if not top five. Finding Nemo is ok, but not my cup of tea. And both lists put WALL-E at the top--just no. WALL-E starts amazing, but once the humans enter the plot the lazy writing takes hold and the fun takes a big dip.
As the Vulture piece mentions about UP, several of these movies just don't age well. Upon a second or third viewing you can start to see the weak points. I used to teach ESL to kids and for a fun lesson we'd watch a movie, and I chose a lot of Pixar movies. So I watched a lot of these repeatedly. When you see UP for the sixth time, you can definitely see the cracks, and the latter half of that film is nowhere near the first. Ratatouille is great when it's Patton Oswalt, but the Linguini character is a pretty terrible co-protagonist and brings the story down too much.
The Toy Story movies are perfect, I, II, and III. (IV is fine, but kinda sorta spoiled that perfect trilogy).
posted by zardoz at 3:46 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
As the Vulture piece mentions about UP, several of these movies just don't age well. Upon a second or third viewing you can start to see the weak points. I used to teach ESL to kids and for a fun lesson we'd watch a movie, and I chose a lot of Pixar movies. So I watched a lot of these repeatedly. When you see UP for the sixth time, you can definitely see the cracks, and the latter half of that film is nowhere near the first. Ratatouille is great when it's Patton Oswalt, but the Linguini character is a pretty terrible co-protagonist and brings the story down too much.
The Toy Story movies are perfect, I, II, and III. (IV is fine, but kinda sorta spoiled that perfect trilogy).
posted by zardoz at 3:46 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
but then the movie goes and has most of the parents mind-controlled for half the film, which has got to be really upsetting for the kids watching
Hugely upsetting for my son. To the point where a lot of the movie is ruined for him because it’s just too darned scary. Coco also had some very intense moments that were just too much, emotionally.
posted by hijinx at 4:25 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hugely upsetting for my son. To the point where a lot of the movie is ruined for him because it’s just too darned scary. Coco also had some very intense moments that were just too much, emotionally.
posted by hijinx at 4:25 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
I love Cars, and I’m not going to pretend it’s a great movie or one of their best efforts. But we’ve always been huge fans of roadside Americana, which still continues its march into the farthest corners of the American memory. We’ve talked with a number of owners of shops on Route 66, and they remember what life was like before the interstate bypassed everything. The Cars writers spent a lot of time talking to them as well. The movie is a love letter to the places by the side of the road that were once a part of everyone’s road trip. Seligman, AZ is pretty much Radiator Springs.
Agreed with what you wrote, having gone on family road trips as a kid and stopped at roadside attractions, this movie speaks to me.
There is an entire layer of Cars that is invisible to non-"car people". There are so many details about cars, like the lights on Flo's V-8 cafe that blink in the order that a V-8's cylinders fire. My dad is a car guy, and I grew up playing with Hot Wheels and got the car guy thing, so I have an appreciation and love for cars that this movie speaks to.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:47 AM on June 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
Agreed with what you wrote, having gone on family road trips as a kid and stopped at roadside attractions, this movie speaks to me.
There is an entire layer of Cars that is invisible to non-"car people". There are so many details about cars, like the lights on Flo's V-8 cafe that blink in the order that a V-8's cylinders fire. My dad is a car guy, and I grew up playing with Hot Wheels and got the car guy thing, so I have an appreciation and love for cars that this movie speaks to.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:47 AM on June 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
The rat in Ratatouille might as well be named Male Privilege, being the mechanism by which yet another unqualified dude gets successful instead of a hard working, qualified woman.
posted by emjaybee at 5:49 AM on June 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 5:49 AM on June 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
My head cannon for the Toy Story films is that the trilogy is perfect and Toy Story 4 is an enjoyable and surprisingly competent fan film, to be considered out of official continuity.
Also, the Monsters films are generally underrated, and the Nemo/Dory films generally overrated.
Also also WALL-E is the Kubrick/Spielberg mashup that AI wishes it could have been.
posted by jscalzi at 5:53 AM on June 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also, the Monsters films are generally underrated, and the Nemo/Dory films generally overrated.
Also also WALL-E is the Kubrick/Spielberg mashup that AI wishes it could have been.
posted by jscalzi at 5:53 AM on June 22, 2021 [4 favorites]
WRT Pixar's decline, a brief reminder: John Lasseter (previously on the blue).
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:28 AM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:28 AM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
My 2.5 year old loves, loves, loves cars and trucks and I know, at some point, we should watch Cars and she'll love it (the world being what it is, she already has some Cars branded stuff, and has seen other stuff out in the wild), but I'm just dreading it. These have sort of convinced me that maybe it's better than I remember, and part of my impression of it was likely colored by the fact that it came out when I was graduating high school and I remember the critical response essentially being "Pixar has finally made an OK movie instead of a fantastic one".
But the other part is there was a post I think I saw here about a dad explaining how many times he's watched Cars in 20-30 minute chunks with his toddler and I know that that's my future if we get it and I'm not sure if I can do that.
posted by damayanti at 7:24 AM on June 22, 2021
But the other part is there was a post I think I saw here about a dad explaining how many times he's watched Cars in 20-30 minute chunks with his toddler and I know that that's my future if we get it and I'm not sure if I can do that.
posted by damayanti at 7:24 AM on June 22, 2021
I don't want to get into the ordering, especially down at the lower end, but The Good Dinosaur was the first (and only) Pixar film that just felt unfinished. You can rightly gripe about the elements of, say, Monsters U not cohering well, but at least they are there. The Good Dinosaur felt like a very impressive visual effects reel attached to a script that had lots of pages marked "insert [pathos/action/jokes] here." It was a great concept - dinosaurs aren't wiped out and keep developing - that just didn't go anywhere interesting. One of the articles in the post say it might merit reappraisal, but it might be better off being remade, keeping the concept and starting again with everything else.
TL;DR - I really hated The Good Dinosaur and want my money back.
posted by YoungStencil at 8:09 AM on June 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
TL;DR - I really hated The Good Dinosaur and want my money back.
posted by YoungStencil at 8:09 AM on June 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
I actually liked Onward better than The Incredibles, Up, Wall-E, and Finding Dory. Inside Out was ok. I've never seen The Cars movies or the Monsters ones, even though I actually own one of the Monsters movies. Coco was good. I think its my #1 Pixar, but among all movies it's middle of the pack.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:17 AM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:17 AM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Debating Pixar stack ranks is almost more enjoyable than watching Pixar movies themselves, especially in recent years. I appreciate how often I come across someone whose top 5 contains a completely different set of movies than mine does.
(I’m excited to see Luca, though; they used my favorite Italian song in the trailer, a duet sung from the perspective of the conniving fox and cat from Pinocchio.)
posted by chaiyai at 8:58 AM on June 22, 2021
(I’m excited to see Luca, though; they used my favorite Italian song in the trailer, a duet sung from the perspective of the conniving fox and cat from Pinocchio.)
posted by chaiyai at 8:58 AM on June 22, 2021
I see this is where I have to link the best goddamn fanfic I’ve ever read, which is kind of a backstory for Coco.
posted by dogheart at 9:03 AM on June 22, 2021
posted by dogheart at 9:03 AM on June 22, 2021
emjaybee: The rat in Ratatouille might as well be named Male Privilege, being the mechanism by which yet another unqualified dude gets successful instead of a hard working, qualified woman.
Ugh, yes. I never finished it, because I was low-grade irritated the whole time I was watching because I wanted *her* story, not the story of the idiot who was promoted over her because he had a rat on his head telling him what to do. And then they had a scene where rats were swarming all over the kitchen and I was out. It's a mystery to me why it always rates so highly in these things.
posted by tavella at 9:40 AM on June 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ugh, yes. I never finished it, because I was low-grade irritated the whole time I was watching because I wanted *her* story, not the story of the idiot who was promoted over her because he had a rat on his head telling him what to do. And then they had a scene where rats were swarming all over the kitchen and I was out. It's a mystery to me why it always rates so highly in these things.
posted by tavella at 9:40 AM on June 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's a mystery to me why it always rates so highly in these things.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, Remy read as a pretty clear queer character, and through that lens it was a very satisfying story. I suspect that other non-queer minority groups might see themselves in Remy as well.
posted by No One Ever Does at 9:59 AM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, Remy read as a pretty clear queer character, and through that lens it was a very satisfying story. I suspect that other non-queer minority groups might see themselves in Remy as well.
posted by No One Ever Does at 9:59 AM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
The rat in Ratatouille might as well be named Male Privilege, being the mechanism by which yet another unqualified dude gets successful instead of a hard working, qualified woman.
Maybe, except that at the end he recognizes he's unqualified and just waits tables instead, and I get the impression that the woman becomes the chef de cuisine.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:20 AM on June 22, 2021 [7 favorites]
Maybe, except that at the end he recognizes he's unqualified and just waits tables instead, and I get the impression that the woman becomes the chef de cuisine.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:20 AM on June 22, 2021 [7 favorites]
I feel like the "Randian" stuff about The Incredibles has been played up a bit too much. 1. The only reason Syndrome isn't considered a Super himself is because, I guess, his gift for invention isn't categorized the same way? It's effectively the same thing, but even if we consider them differently, Syndrome isn't some Robin Hood bringing superpowers to the masses - he's building weapons of mass destruction for rogue nations to fund his own pet projects that he "keeps for himself." And killing Superheroes was, to him, a pleasant by-product of testing his Omnidroid to make sure that no one but he could defeat it once unleashed. Because he wanted recognition as the Best Superhero.
But in any case the questions brought up by the sequel are more interesting and the movie leaves the debate open. Like, yes, Superheroes cause more problems than they solve, and that's not negated by being the villain's argument, and also superheroes have a moral obligation to "do good" where they can, even if that gets messy on the large scale, and round and round. Generally the first one is a more perfect movie, but the ideas in the second one are juicier.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:15 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
But in any case the questions brought up by the sequel are more interesting and the movie leaves the debate open. Like, yes, Superheroes cause more problems than they solve, and that's not negated by being the villain's argument, and also superheroes have a moral obligation to "do good" where they can, even if that gets messy on the large scale, and round and round. Generally the first one is a more perfect movie, but the ideas in the second one are juicier.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:15 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
WALL-E and Finding Nemo top the list for me. I go back and forth depending on if I have volunteered at the Aquarium recently.
That opening sequence in WALL-E: especially the cockroach being the only survivor; the grumpy cleaner robot; the jailbreak scene …
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:21 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
That opening sequence in WALL-E: especially the cockroach being the only survivor; the grumpy cleaner robot; the jailbreak scene …
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:21 AM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
I know we're not talking about the shorts, but Lava was so bad it has to be mentioned.
posted by FJT at 11:22 AM on June 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by FJT at 11:22 AM on June 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
All 30 Pixar Shorts [as of 2015–ed.], Ranked from Worst to Best
posted by Johnny Assay at 11:55 AM on June 22, 2021
posted by Johnny Assay at 11:55 AM on June 22, 2021
I feel like the "Randian" stuff about The Incredibles has been played up a bit too much.
No, not really. Looking at Incredibles 1 & 2, doesn't it strike you as odd that there are no actual supervillains? Syndrome, Bomb Voyage, The Underminer, the Screen Slaver: they're all gadget-based normies. There's not one example of a person getting superpowers and going on a rampage, which suggests that the authors believe that people with superpowers are just better than normal people. This fits a bit too neatly into Randian notions of "superior" people being allowed to do their thing without interference from "mediocrities."
posted by SPrintF at 11:56 AM on June 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
No, not really. Looking at Incredibles 1 & 2, doesn't it strike you as odd that there are no actual supervillains? Syndrome, Bomb Voyage, The Underminer, the Screen Slaver: they're all gadget-based normies. There's not one example of a person getting superpowers and going on a rampage, which suggests that the authors believe that people with superpowers are just better than normal people. This fits a bit too neatly into Randian notions of "superior" people being allowed to do their thing without interference from "mediocrities."
posted by SPrintF at 11:56 AM on June 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
Also note that Brad Bird's first original live-action picture, not counting Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol, was Tomorrowland, which has been described as Walt Disney's Atlas Shrugged. It bombed.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:50 PM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:50 PM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
This article seems to be a good answer to the randian subtext argument.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
We saw UP - the four of us alone in a cinema in the middle of the day, just after completing an intercontinental move after 20 years in South America. We all wept. It was honestly pretty traumatic. The two chairs scene!
What it did was kill Pixar for me. I think I stopped seeing Pixar at the movie theatre after that. I refused to be emotionally beat up unexpectedly by a movie again.
(I'll wait and spoiler myself and maybe watch on a safer smaller screen, but that's less reliable when you don't have DVDs anymore, and aren't going to pay for more than one streaming service. So I haven't seen any Toy Story after #2, for example.)
posted by freethefeet at 3:12 PM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
What it did was kill Pixar for me. I think I stopped seeing Pixar at the movie theatre after that. I refused to be emotionally beat up unexpectedly by a movie again.
(I'll wait and spoiler myself and maybe watch on a safer smaller screen, but that's less reliable when you don't have DVDs anymore, and aren't going to pay for more than one streaming service. So I haven't seen any Toy Story after #2, for example.)
posted by freethefeet at 3:12 PM on June 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
the other part is there was a post I think I saw here about a dad explaining how many times he's watched Cars in 20-30 minute chunks with his toddler and I know that that's my future if we get it and I'm not sure if I can do that
If she ever asks to see it, just tell her firmly that she can watch it when she's older. You don't have to explain it more than that. It won't make you a bad parent and it'll spare you many afternoons of misery.
FJT, what was so bad about Lava? I'm cynical as hell and I thought it was one of the sweetest things I'd ever seen.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:52 PM on June 22, 2021
If she ever asks to see it, just tell her firmly that she can watch it when she's older. You don't have to explain it more than that. It won't make you a bad parent and it'll spare you many afternoons of misery.
FJT, what was so bad about Lava? I'm cynical as hell and I thought it was one of the sweetest things I'd ever seen.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:52 PM on June 22, 2021
Humph. That list does not have Piper on it, which is maybe my favorite Pixar short.
posted by tavella at 5:41 PM on June 22, 2021
posted by tavella at 5:41 PM on June 22, 2021
I loved Brave for its Doric joke. I'd not heard my home town's tongue spoken in such a big movie before. Even if it was there to be ridiculed as incomprehensible, I had the lovely experience of getting a completely different joke to all the people around me in the cinema.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:38 PM on June 22, 2021
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:38 PM on June 22, 2021
Did anyone else get to the end of Luca and regret that it had fantasy elements? I sort of wish it had been just a coming of age movie about a deep friendship set in 19XX Italy.
posted by Wetterschneider at 7:02 PM on June 22, 2021
posted by Wetterschneider at 7:02 PM on June 22, 2021
I’ve enjoyed a number of their films but it hard to get past seeing John Lasseter’s name in the credits.
posted by adamsc at 7:30 PM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by adamsc at 7:30 PM on June 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
FJT, what was so bad about Lava? I'm cynical as hell and I thought it was one of the sweetest things I'd ever seen.
Yeah, I like Lava a lot too; it's sweet and pretty and has a good song.
The Vulture list puts Knick Knack at #9 which just, no: it's so leery. Directed by Lasseter, huh. Says Wikipedia, with citation provided:
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:34 AM on June 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I like Lava a lot too; it's sweet and pretty and has a good song.
The Vulture list puts Knick Knack at #9 which just, no: it's so leery. Directed by Lasseter, huh. Says Wikipedia, with citation provided:
Also distorted were the two female characters—the bikini-attired woman and a mermaid—whose breasts were ultra-exaggerated thanks to a technical director who was a pinup enthusiast.just; ugh.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:34 AM on June 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I seem to recall seeing Knick Knack later and noticing they had toned down the breasts? Ah, here's the changes.
posted by JHarris at 10:32 AM on June 23, 2021
posted by JHarris at 10:32 AM on June 23, 2021
Holy cow. I had never heard of Knick Knack, watched the first YT result and wasn't sure what was going on.
Oof; the original was pretty horrendous.
posted by jquinby at 11:19 AM on June 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oof; the original was pretty horrendous.
posted by jquinby at 11:19 AM on June 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
the authors believe that people with superpowers are just better than normal people. This fits a bit too neatly into Randian notions of "superior" people being allowed to do their thing without interference from "mediocrities."
No, Rand doesn't think the Ubermench is better than you. Randians think that your normie ideas about better and worse, good and evil, don't apply to superior beings like themselves.
That's the argument Dash tries to make to his mom: "Dad says I'm special. That means I should be able to get away with behavior other kids get in trouble for. I shouldn't have to worry about the consequences of my actions for the rest of my family." And his mom rejects that for the childish whining that the movie clearly believes it is.
Syndrome thinks the only thing wrong with that nonsense is that he (and people who give him enough money) ought to be be "special" and get to do whatever he wants.
Bob doesn't say it out loud, but that's how he acts before he gets his comeuppance. The happy ending is not "Superheroes do as they please" but "Superheroes can act under supervision of the government and are accountable to society and to their families."
Buddy is not allowed to play superhero because he's a kid playing with dangerous toys, not because he's a normie. And then Bob is also not allowed to play superhero because society sees superheroes as kids playing with dangerous toys. Syndrome's response is to insist on playing with more and more dangerous toys. That's what makes him a villain. Bob's ultimate response is to accept supervision and accountability.
If Bird was trying to make Randian movie, he failed miserably.
posted by straight at 2:19 PM on June 23, 2021
No, Rand doesn't think the Ubermench is better than you. Randians think that your normie ideas about better and worse, good and evil, don't apply to superior beings like themselves.
That's the argument Dash tries to make to his mom: "Dad says I'm special. That means I should be able to get away with behavior other kids get in trouble for. I shouldn't have to worry about the consequences of my actions for the rest of my family." And his mom rejects that for the childish whining that the movie clearly believes it is.
Syndrome thinks the only thing wrong with that nonsense is that he (and people who give him enough money) ought to be be "special" and get to do whatever he wants.
Bob doesn't say it out loud, but that's how he acts before he gets his comeuppance. The happy ending is not "Superheroes do as they please" but "Superheroes can act under supervision of the government and are accountable to society and to their families."
Buddy is not allowed to play superhero because he's a kid playing with dangerous toys, not because he's a normie. And then Bob is also not allowed to play superhero because society sees superheroes as kids playing with dangerous toys. Syndrome's response is to insist on playing with more and more dangerous toys. That's what makes him a villain. Bob's ultimate response is to accept supervision and accountability.
If Bird was trying to make Randian movie, he failed miserably.
posted by straight at 2:19 PM on June 23, 2021
I seem to recall seeing Knick Knack later and noticing they had toned down the breasts? Ah, here's the changes.
Whew, that guy lamenting the size decrease of the cartoon character's breasts reminds me of the people complaining that they can't jack off to Lola Bunny anymore in the Space Jam sequel. Creepy, dude.
posted by Anonymous at 2:52 PM on June 23, 2021
Whew, that guy lamenting the size decrease of the cartoon character's breasts reminds me of the people complaining that they can't jack off to Lola Bunny anymore in the Space Jam sequel. Creepy, dude.
posted by Anonymous at 2:52 PM on June 23, 2021
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Syndrome's sinister plot is to kill superheroes, which is bad, but also to give everyone superpowers, and that's also a bad thing? He says, sinisterly, if everyone's special then no one will be, but, still, everyone will have superpowers!
Not exactly. He wants to sell people gizmos that will put them on a par or near-par with superheroes, but they won't actually have superpowers. For instance, all of the Parrs have superpowers that are manifested in their bodies. Syndrome has gizmos.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:35 PM on June 26, 2021
Not exactly. He wants to sell people gizmos that will put them on a par or near-par with superheroes, but they won't actually have superpowers. For instance, all of the Parrs have superpowers that are manifested in their bodies. Syndrome has gizmos.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:35 PM on June 26, 2021
Yeah, but the ability of Syndrome's brain to single-handedly make tech superior to everything else the human race has created counts as a super power in comic book reckoning. Doctor Doom is a supervillain. Tony Stark is a superhero.
posted by straight at 1:19 PM on June 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 1:19 PM on June 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also, I'll bet the law prohibiting Mr. Incredible from vigilante superheroing covers tech-based heroes the same way the Accords apply to Ant-Man in the MCU.
posted by straight at 1:25 PM on June 27, 2021
posted by straight at 1:25 PM on June 27, 2021
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posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:13 PM on June 21, 2021 [4 favorites]