Take the Broken Pieces of Another Thrill and Make a Brand New Toy
July 1, 2021 7:02 AM Subscribe
Whoops. A little too late to edit, but I meant to link DEVO's "Girl U Want" as the comparison point with "My Sharona"
posted by SansPoint at 7:32 AM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 7:32 AM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
Bless her heart, how can Courtney still be this much of a hot mess?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:40 AM on July 1, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:40 AM on July 1, 2021 [17 favorites]
Copyright needs to be pruned. No one should have to worry that their song or photo is going to get copyright claimed for being too close to something published 27 or 43 years ago. We should be allowed to freely riff on older stuff as freely as we riff on Mozart or Beethoven or Chaucer or Shakespeare.
Legality aside, a whole new generation is going to learn about Hole and Elvis Costello because of these similarities. I get not wanting to be paid in exposure, but he absolutely has the right attitude.
posted by explosion at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2021 [16 favorites]
Legality aside, a whole new generation is going to learn about Hole and Elvis Costello because of these similarities. I get not wanting to be paid in exposure, but he absolutely has the right attitude.
posted by explosion at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2021 [16 favorites]
I like Costello's response -- acknowledge it as a homage and at the same time give a hat tip to your own influences.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2021 [21 favorites]
Masterful. Spent a good chunk of the afternoon yesterday revisiting Costello due to his response.
posted by mochapickle at 7:45 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 7:45 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
The similar eye makeup makes me feel Courtney has a case. Neither look anything like Carrie. Carrie looks like a normal prom scene.
The riff is Pump it Up, but if they had done the outro (similar song structure to Pump it Up too) differently, then I'd probably think it incidental.
I don't get Pump It Up's comparisons to Subterranean Home Sick Blues or Too Much Monkey Business. They use fast-ish talking I guess?
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:57 AM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
The riff is Pump it Up, but if they had done the outro (similar song structure to Pump it Up too) differently, then I'd probably think it incidental.
I don't get Pump It Up's comparisons to Subterranean Home Sick Blues or Too Much Monkey Business. They use fast-ish talking I guess?
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:57 AM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
The riff is Pump it Up, but if they had done the outro (similar song structure to Pump it Up too) differently, then I'd probably think it incidental.
Sorry, not the outro, it's the middle/solo part. The ending isn't like Pump it Up at all.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:00 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sorry, not the outro, it's the middle/solo part. The ending isn't like Pump it Up at all.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:00 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I agree with the basic idea, that it isn't plagiarism or stealing, but I dislike the framing: wise Elvis Costello teaches that crazy Courtney Love a lesson. Courtney Love's work has been disrespected in so many sexist ways over the years that it's not surprising she's defensive. I would be too if I'd had to deal with years and years of dudes saying I didn't write my songs.
posted by betweenthebars at 8:12 AM on July 1, 2021 [78 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 8:12 AM on July 1, 2021 [78 favorites]
The Ecstasy of Influence, by Jonathan Lethem
posted by lalochezia at 8:13 AM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 8:13 AM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't get Pump It Up's comparisons to Subterranean Home Sick Blues or Too Much Monkey Business. They use fast-ish talking I guess?They have repetitive verses with extended monotone singing over a single sustained tonic chord that eventually bursts into an actual harmonic cadence. It's certainly not a ripoff or anything (plenty of songs sit on the tonic for a while and spring off of it eventually) but it's a point of reference.
posted by dfan at 8:13 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yeah, suuuuure Courtney love was the first to use that imagery.
posted by Hey, Zeus! at 8:29 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Hey, Zeus! at 8:29 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yeah, just imagine the monotone verse of Pump it Up delivered faster, and you can hear Subterranean Homesick Blues. Elvis is around 140 bpm, Dylan is ~180.
posted by anhedonic at 8:36 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by anhedonic at 8:36 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Courtney is messy (I wouldn't argue), but sometimes I wonder, especially now as everyone is reappraising the way we have treated "difficult" women in the spotlight, if we've resisted talking about the way she has been consistently dragged since day one (including/especially by other women) because we need someone to stay a villain/hot mess and we've somehow collectively decided that she's it. I get that she does foolish or self-destructive things, maybe even more than most, but, like . . . I dunno. Feels weird.
I mean
Elvis Costello is and has been an all-time, top five, all the way around for me (not just because he spells my first name correctly) since I was a kid and I won't apologize for it. But like, he did some unbelievably ill-conceived, offensive and irresponsible shit when he was young. The kind of shit that might have justifiably ended his career if he were not the kind of too-clever-by-half white dude beloved of the two-clever-by-half white dudes and wannabes who ran the industry and the affiliated media at the time, all of whom were primed to forgive him. Elvis is an A+ apologizer and a great musician/writer who has given the world many thorny and witty and beautiful things (and again, I say this as full-throated superfan who is also the CHILD of a full-throated superfan), but like, if he can be allowed to carry on in the world without everyone jumping on him for his history all the time, I feel like we can decide not to react to every single thing Courtney Love does with an "Oh, look at the witch, let's burn her again."
On preview what betweenthebars said
(And that is putting aside the fact that "Violet" is one of the greatest songs ever, certainly one of the best of the 1990s, and I'm not even much a Hole fan. I don't even care about any songwriting controversy. It's her performance and her transcendent rage that make it so fucking good).
posted by thivaia at 8:46 AM on July 1, 2021 [49 favorites]
I mean
Elvis Costello is and has been an all-time, top five, all the way around for me (not just because he spells my first name correctly) since I was a kid and I won't apologize for it. But like, he did some unbelievably ill-conceived, offensive and irresponsible shit when he was young. The kind of shit that might have justifiably ended his career if he were not the kind of too-clever-by-half white dude beloved of the two-clever-by-half white dudes and wannabes who ran the industry and the affiliated media at the time, all of whom were primed to forgive him. Elvis is an A+ apologizer and a great musician/writer who has given the world many thorny and witty and beautiful things (and again, I say this as full-throated superfan who is also the CHILD of a full-throated superfan), but like, if he can be allowed to carry on in the world without everyone jumping on him for his history all the time, I feel like we can decide not to react to every single thing Courtney Love does with an "Oh, look at the witch, let's burn her again."
On preview what betweenthebars said
(And that is putting aside the fact that "Violet" is one of the greatest songs ever, certainly one of the best of the 1990s, and I'm not even much a Hole fan. I don't even care about any songwriting controversy. It's her performance and her transcendent rage that make it so fucking good).
posted by thivaia at 8:46 AM on July 1, 2021 [49 favorites]
Elvis Costello made a great point. But I really hate this Elvis Costello "schools" Courtney Love thing that's happening. I understand making the comparison to their responses, but the power dynamic they're assigning these two separate statements is gross. If anything, it should be "Elvis Costello schools random teen named Billy."
Also Courtney Love has every right to be irritated that something was clearly influenced by her work, and only acknowledged after the she spoke out, wtf. Women's contributions have and continued to be so overlooked in just about every industry, people have a right to say "My work was an influence, acknowledge me."
posted by Pretty Good Talker at 8:48 AM on July 1, 2021 [19 favorites]
Also Courtney Love has every right to be irritated that something was clearly influenced by her work, and only acknowledged after the she spoke out, wtf. Women's contributions have and continued to be so overlooked in just about every industry, people have a right to say "My work was an influence, acknowledge me."
posted by Pretty Good Talker at 8:48 AM on July 1, 2021 [19 favorites]
it's a point of reference.
Point of reference I can buy:
Pump it up is not monotone - EC is hitting on the last syllable of each word pretty hard.
This is actually a common style of pop music, some other examples Going Down by the Monkees ?
Or more accurately it's true predecessor Cherokee Boogie, by Moon Mullican from the early 1950s, though the guitar makes it more like Hank Williams in-concert version.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:09 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Point of reference I can buy:
Pump it up is not monotone - EC is hitting on the last syllable of each word pretty hard.
This is actually a common style of pop music, some other examples Going Down by the Monkees ?
Or more accurately it's true predecessor Cherokee Boogie, by Moon Mullican from the early 1950s, though the guitar makes it more like Hank Williams in-concert version.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:09 AM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Also speaking of songs that rip off "Pump It Up," don't forget this dubious roller rink jam, people alive in the 1980s.
(Sorry)
posted by thivaia at 9:15 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
(Sorry)
posted by thivaia at 9:15 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
There's an episode of the Broken Record podcast (which I don't really recommend) in which Gladwell talks to three big Nashville songwriters from the 70's. One of them tells a story about stealing a part of another songwriter's song. Later the stealer asks the stealee why they never sued him and they replied something like "because I never got sued by the person that I stole it from..."
posted by Drab_Parts at 9:43 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Drab_Parts at 9:43 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile she’s just fine stealing all the money from a show and skipping town. Minneapolis doesn’t forget.
posted by misterpatrick at 9:48 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 9:48 AM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I do not personally blame Courtney Love for feeling salty about Olivia Rodrigo using an image that does clearly appear to riff off of Hole's famous album cover.
I do think that while she's going on and on about how rude Ms. Rodrigo is, Ms. Love is also being pretty rude. The cover isn't "stealing" from her, she doesn't have an exclusive claim to the "original idea" of a crying prom queen with smeary mascara, and by the way maybe give the photographer who created the "Live Though This" image some actual credit for her art rather than just tossing out "I know Ellen von Unwerth isn't amused?"
But look, if Ms. Love wants to express herself rudely, that's fine, she shouldn't have to change her personality to have her body of work appreciated and loved. I'm not tone-policing her, here. Fans of various male musicians seem perfectly capable of making this separation between someone's personality and their work. In contrast, Courtney Love's talent has absolutely been demeaned and dismissed by fellow musicians, fans, and the industry because she's "difficult."
posted by desuetude at 10:05 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
I do think that while she's going on and on about how rude Ms. Rodrigo is, Ms. Love is also being pretty rude. The cover isn't "stealing" from her, she doesn't have an exclusive claim to the "original idea" of a crying prom queen with smeary mascara, and by the way maybe give the photographer who created the "Live Though This" image some actual credit for her art rather than just tossing out "I know Ellen von Unwerth isn't amused?"
But look, if Ms. Love wants to express herself rudely, that's fine, she shouldn't have to change her personality to have her body of work appreciated and loved. I'm not tone-policing her, here. Fans of various male musicians seem perfectly capable of making this separation between someone's personality and their work. In contrast, Courtney Love's talent has absolutely been demeaned and dismissed by fellow musicians, fans, and the industry because she's "difficult."
posted by desuetude at 10:05 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
Forget copyright and other legal issues, artists have every right to feel how they feel if someone appropriates their work.
But I really hate this Elvis Costello "schools" Courtney Love thing that's happening
Yup. I mean, "Elvis Costello responds graciously" would have been fine and also a rare enough event to be worth a headline. AFAICT he didn't direct anything he was saying at Courtney Love.
The Love stuff is 100% a separate thing. I don't find the case for this being a rip-off really compelling, but if it were it's not up to Elvis Costello to welcome it on her behalf.
Elvis Costello is and has been an all-time, top five, all the way around for me (not just because he spells my first name correctly) since I was a kid and I won't apologize for it,
Same, and love your description of his early, uh, exuberance. I'm getting some real crossed wires seeing him held up as some even-keeled sage of the rock world. I know he's mellowed with age but part of me is like "Oh, this time he didn't go on a profanity-laden rant to a perceived slight."
posted by mark k at 10:13 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
But I really hate this Elvis Costello "schools" Courtney Love thing that's happening
Yup. I mean, "Elvis Costello responds graciously" would have been fine and also a rare enough event to be worth a headline. AFAICT he didn't direct anything he was saying at Courtney Love.
The Love stuff is 100% a separate thing. I don't find the case for this being a rip-off really compelling, but if it were it's not up to Elvis Costello to welcome it on her behalf.
Elvis Costello is and has been an all-time, top five, all the way around for me (not just because he spells my first name correctly) since I was a kid and I won't apologize for it,
Same, and love your description of his early, uh, exuberance. I'm getting some real crossed wires seeing him held up as some even-keeled sage of the rock world. I know he's mellowed with age but part of me is like "Oh, this time he didn't go on a profanity-laden rant to a perceived slight."
posted by mark k at 10:13 AM on July 1, 2021 [9 favorites]
The worst ideas are ones someone came up with on their own and everyone of those ideas was already had already ten thousand years ago or more. Humanity is just sharing and copying ideas from one another, "stealing" is itself a concept we made up and stole from one another and then we did it against when we started applying it to psychic things like ideas. To properly credit anything would take more than expressing any idea and be an impossible task since people didn't have the idea of long-term record-keeping until it was too late. Credits today are more tied to the twisted mechanisms of capitalism. Asking for credit means a name mention for some, a payment or exchange of some kind for others unequally.
Also pardon my classism and artism, but rich artists who work in collaborative mediums where they receive central credit and focus are the folks whose tears about "idea stealing" or "credit" I care the least about.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:48 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
Also pardon my classism and artism, but rich artists who work in collaborative mediums where they receive central credit and focus are the folks whose tears about "idea stealing" or "credit" I care the least about.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:48 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
the "asking permission" part always annoys me. Like I can just write some big deal star an email and get a firm reply within a day or two.
And even if ... how did their song/image/whatever get into my head in the first place? Most likely via prolonged exposure via corporate radio, tv, movies, streaming services, advertising etc. It's almost as if it was rammed into my dreams and imagination without my permission.
Hmmm?
posted by philip-random at 10:59 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
And even if ... how did their song/image/whatever get into my head in the first place? Most likely via prolonged exposure via corporate radio, tv, movies, streaming services, advertising etc. It's almost as if it was rammed into my dreams and imagination without my permission.
Hmmm?
posted by philip-random at 10:59 AM on July 1, 2021 [8 favorites]
I think I've hit my lifetime limit for arguing about Courtney Love.
But I don't like to come to a party empty-handed, so here's a song from Courtney Love, the short-lived band featuring Lois Maffeo: "The 2nd Most Beautiful Girl in the World."
posted by box at 11:05 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
But I don't like to come to a party empty-handed, so here's a song from Courtney Love, the short-lived band featuring Lois Maffeo: "The 2nd Most Beautiful Girl in the World."
posted by box at 11:05 AM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Re Courtney Love, I thought the Courtney Love episode of the You’re Wrong About podcast was interesting and did a good job covering a lot of the shitty ways people have often loved to hate her. https://podtail.com/en/podcast/you-re-wrong-about/courtney-love/
posted by aka burlap at 11:26 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by aka burlap at 11:26 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
I will always love Courtney. She may be occasionally problematic (but then, so am I). I saw Hole not long after Kurt died and there she was, so obviously deeply grieving that it was hard to watch, and hard to look away. The fact that she seems a favorite punching bag of the music and entertainment press only endears her to me more. So, like box, I just have this.
posted by evilDoug at 11:41 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 11:41 AM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
But I don't like to come to a party empty-handed, so here's a song from Courtney Love, the short-lived band featuring Lois Maffeo: "The 2nd Most Beautiful Girl in the World."
I like that song but I thought it was actually by Courtney Love, not by a band named Courtney Love. Didn't they think that might be a confusing name for their band?
I love Snail Mail's version.
posted by mokey at 12:53 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I like that song but I thought it was actually by Courtney Love, not by a band named Courtney Love. Didn't they think that might be a confusing name for their band?
I love Snail Mail's version.
posted by mokey at 12:53 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
I feel like Olivia Rodrigo knew that everyone would recognize that her cover was a reference to the Hole cover. Plagiarism, to me, implies an intent to obfuscate the original source. I don't think that Olivia Rodrigo thought in any way that everyone had forgotten that Courtney Love existed. I think her intention was to bring Courtney Love's influence on her to the forefront. I think that Rodrigo's publicity was meant to be good publicity for Courtney Love. Rodrigo should have talked to Love beforehand, but I think that is the biggest mistake here.
posted by Quonab at 12:54 PM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Quonab at 12:54 PM on July 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Costello's obviously mellowed a whole lot, as shown by the fact he recently licensed Pump It Up for use in the Ford EcoSport advert. Back in the day he turned down a million pounds from Nike to use the same song in one of their ads. I don't mind that he went back on his principles but did it have to be an SUV ad, and not even an electric one?
posted by mokey at 1:06 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by mokey at 1:06 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
My understanding at the time was that Lois Maffeo knew it would be a confusing name for her band, made the decision to use that name deliberately, and that Courtney Love (the person) felt like Calvin Johnson (of K Records semi-fame) put out Lois's Courtney Love (band) records as a way of showing Courtney (person) that she wasn't part of his little cool-kid in-group. (That kind of 'it's not paranoia if they're really out to get you' thing was one of the things that Courtney and Kurt had in common.)
There's a version of the story where Lois and then Love Michelle Harrison were roommates and came up with the name together, which Lois used for her band and Courtney used for herself. I don't think it's true. There's also a version where Lois used the name after somehow finding Courtney's pre-fame diaries. I don't think that one's true either. There's a version (that Lois tells) where Lois came up with the name 'out of nowhere' and wasn't aware of Courtney-the-person at the time, which, while not impossible, seems like a very big coincidence, and one where Courtney (person) and Lois hosted a radio show on Evergreen State's KAOS together before Lois started K Records with her then-partner Calvin Johnson, the second part of which is demonstrably not true.
And then, a few years after Courtney Love (band) broke up (which may or not have coincided with Courtney (person) gaining access to David Geffen-level lawyers), everybody was swingin' on the flippity-flop. When it comes to indie music, reliable narrators are sometimes kinda thin on the ground.
posted by box at 1:59 PM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
There's a version of the story where Lois and then Love Michelle Harrison were roommates and came up with the name together, which Lois used for her band and Courtney used for herself. I don't think it's true. There's also a version where Lois used the name after somehow finding Courtney's pre-fame diaries. I don't think that one's true either. There's a version (that Lois tells) where Lois came up with the name 'out of nowhere' and wasn't aware of Courtney-the-person at the time, which, while not impossible, seems like a very big coincidence, and one where Courtney (person) and Lois hosted a radio show on Evergreen State's KAOS together before Lois started K Records with her then-partner Calvin Johnson, the second part of which is demonstrably not true.
And then, a few years after Courtney Love (band) broke up (which may or not have coincided with Courtney (person) gaining access to David Geffen-level lawyers), everybody was swingin' on the flippity-flop. When it comes to indie music, reliable narrators are sometimes kinda thin on the ground.
posted by box at 1:59 PM on July 1, 2021 [5 favorites]
I mean, it can be true both that Courtney Love has gotten an awful lot of shit for no good reason (the Kurt Cobain death conspiracy mongers can take a collective flying fuck at a rolling donut on a gravel driveway), and that the "Elvis Costello teaches her a lesson" framing is likewise bad and wrong, and that her going after Olivia Rodrigo for an image that must have literal generations of prior art from actual beauty and prom queens is also problematic.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:14 PM on July 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:14 PM on July 1, 2021 [12 favorites]
When it comes to indie music, reliable narrators are sometimes kinda thin on the ground.
This is 100% accurate
posted by thivaia at 4:09 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is 100% accurate
posted by thivaia at 4:09 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Who's this Costello fellow who's supposed to be "teaching" something to Courtney Fuckin' Love?
posted by signal at 4:45 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:45 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, Brutal is a total jam.
posted by signal at 4:46 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:46 PM on July 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Olivia Rodrigo was born 9 years after "Live Through This" was released. She's a teenager. Maybe instead of it being an homage, she had never seen the album cover and is literally a kid who could have just gone to her high school prom? Or maybe it is an homage and
I can't believe I'm even... why is this even a thing
posted by gwint at 5:00 PM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
I can't believe I'm even... why is this even a thing
posted by gwint at 5:00 PM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
A little too late to edit, but I meant to link DEVO's "Girl U Want" as the comparison point with "My Sharona"
I think it's more a question of "Girl U Want" stealing the riff from Led Zeppelin's Misty Mountain Hop.
posted by jonp72 at 6:17 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think it's more a question of "Girl U Want" stealing the riff from Led Zeppelin's Misty Mountain Hop.
posted by jonp72 at 6:17 PM on July 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Costello's obviously mellowed a whole lot, as shown by the fact he recently licensed Pump It Up for use in the Ford EcoSport advert. Back in the day he turned down a million pounds from Nike to use the same song in one of their ads. I don't mind that he went back on his principles but did it have to be an SUV ad, and not even an electric one?
Perhaps he enjoyed the irony of hearing his voice say "You don't really need it" as Ford tried to flog this obviously shit car.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Perhaps he enjoyed the irony of hearing his voice say "You don't really need it" as Ford tried to flog this obviously shit car.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
jonp72: No, no. The DEVO song that stole the “Misty Mountain Hop” riff is “Uncontrollable Urge”
Besides. Zeppelin stole enough riffs that it’s only fair they get riffs stolen from them.
posted by SansPoint at 7:28 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Besides. Zeppelin stole enough riffs that it’s only fair they get riffs stolen from them.
posted by SansPoint at 7:28 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
I dislike the framing: wise Elvis Costello teaches that crazy Courtney Love a lesson.
I was surprised that that was the lead link in the OP here on MeFi.
posted by fairmettle at 9:00 PM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
I was surprised that that was the lead link in the OP here on MeFi.
posted by fairmettle at 9:00 PM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Is this where Paul McCartney archly rags on the Sex Pistols for being another band stealing from Chuck Berry?
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:10 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:10 PM on July 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Olivia Rodrigo was born 9 years after "Live Through This" was released. She's a teenager. Maybe instead of it being an homage, she had never seen the album cover and is literally a kid who could have just gone to her high school prom? Or maybe it is an homage and
I can't believe I'm even... why is this even a thing
RTFA? Ms. Rodrigo has openly acknowledged that she's a fan of Hole. Her response to Ms. Love referencing this is in the first link.
posted by desuetude at 11:12 PM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
I can't believe I'm even... why is this even a thing
RTFA? Ms. Rodrigo has openly acknowledged that she's a fan of Hole. Her response to Ms. Love referencing this is in the first link.
posted by desuetude at 11:12 PM on July 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yeah, who ever heard of teenagers liking albums released before they were born ? How would they even listen to them ? That's impossible.
posted by Pendragon at 1:00 AM on July 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 1:00 AM on July 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm 50 years old and remember the Hole album cover. I always assumed it was a riff on the movie "Carrie" or at least a nod to the general concept/idea of the movie—in a loving way. I know my opinion doesn't mean spit, but the Hole album image is not some completely new idea.
That said, the Rodrigo version of the concept is a lesser photo. It looks amateurish. But maybe that's the point? I'm too old to be commenting on pop culture, perhaps.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:54 AM on July 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
That said, the Rodrigo version of the concept is a lesser photo. It looks amateurish. But maybe that's the point? I'm too old to be commenting on pop culture, perhaps.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:54 AM on July 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Courtney Love is a bit like Sinead O'Connor in that they are both great artists who exist in a hundred different levels of dichotomy, as underappreciated genius/acknowledged legend, acclaimed truth teller/widely hated loudmouth, perpetually gaslit/not entirely well. They're huge figures and enormous talents but we never seem to give them the same latitude for duality and self-contradiction that we give their male peers. It's always either "She was always crazy" or "She was right all along." Male rock stars routinely get to be appreciated for being bold geniuses even as we acknowledge they are problematic, but for Courtney and Sinead, it's seemingly always either/or.
Isn't Sinead's (well, Shuhada Sadaqat's) autobiography out now? I really want to read that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:10 AM on July 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Isn't Sinead's (well, Shuhada Sadaqat's) autobiography out now? I really want to read that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:10 AM on July 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Adding on to what others mentioned above about Elvis Costello as an ostensibly wise older artist: Costello's journey from Angry Young Man ranting about every slight to magnanimous elder statesman was made infinitely easier by the world coming around to acknowledging him as an all time great. Courtney Love, by comparison, is still pretty goddamn underappreciated.
No fair praising one artist for no longer having a chip on their shoulder when the world relented and removed it for them, then chiding another while we are still heaping things onto their shoulders.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:24 AM on July 2, 2021 [9 favorites]
No fair praising one artist for no longer having a chip on their shoulder when the world relented and removed it for them, then chiding another while we are still heaping things onto their shoulders.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:24 AM on July 2, 2021 [9 favorites]
I love Hole, I think a lot of the better songs off Olivia Rodrigo's album sound like they come from a less dying swan version of Celebrity Skin, and I've been surprised by how few people noted the obvious Courtney Love influence! (Lots of references to "riot grrrl," but let's be clear, Olivia Rodrigo does not sound like most of that.) The picture in question is also, obviously, a Live Through This reference. The embarrassing thing to me is pointing it out almost undermines how iconic it is; imagine if David Bowie had spent the last years of his life complaining whenever someone took a picture like the Aladdin Sane cover?
But...uh, you know, it's Courtney. Even if you really like her, this can't surprise you.
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:31 AM on July 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
But...uh, you know, it's Courtney. Even if you really like her, this can't surprise you.
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:31 AM on July 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm 50 years old and remember the Hole album cover. I always assumed it was a riff on the movie "Carrie" or at least a nod to the general concept/idea of the movie—in a loving way. I know my opinion doesn't mean spit, but the Hole album image is not some completely new idea.
I can remember the Hole album cover also, and although I doubt I made that connection myself, I can remember the visual reference to Carrie being pointed out at the time. If the story told in this 2019 article about the Hole album cover is correct, that homage was deliberate:
I can remember the Hole album cover also, and although I doubt I made that connection myself, I can remember the visual reference to Carrie being pointed out at the time. If the story told in this 2019 article about the Hole album cover is correct, that homage was deliberate:
Speaking to AnOther, Von Unwerth recalls the days before the photo shoot in Los Angeles. “Courtney Love called me,” she says. “We were on the phone for one hour. I didn’t say much but listened, and Courtney had the idea of re-enacting the scene of the [1976] movie Carrie, which I loved, too.”posted by Dip Flash at 7:57 AM on July 2, 2021 [2 favorites]
"Every pop musician is a thief and a magpie."
- Elvis Costello, March 1986
posted by prepmonkey at 8:18 AM on July 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
- Elvis Costello, March 1986
posted by prepmonkey at 8:18 AM on July 2, 2021 [5 favorites]
This even-tempered Elvis response and the sublime Tabitha Brown reply to Wendy Williams create a trend (of two), wherein the alleged victim implores us all - with the utmost courtesy - to stop being such judgmental tattletales.
posted by Cheezitsofcool at 10:46 AM on July 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Cheezitsofcool at 10:46 AM on July 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
That Tabitha Brown video deserves its own FPP, but I'm not sure Metafilter on the whole has the read on Black America or the South to recognize that clip for the merciless execution that it is.
I've got white friends from outside the South praising it as taking the high road while my Black friends and Southern friends are more like, Y'all wanna see a dead body?
That was murder by Bless Your Heart and it was a wonder to behold.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:26 AM on July 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
I've got white friends from outside the South praising it as taking the high road while my Black friends and Southern friends are more like, Y'all wanna see a dead body?
That was murder by Bless Your Heart and it was a wonder to behold.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:26 AM on July 2, 2021 [8 favorites]
Courtney Love (the person) felt like Calvin Johnson (of K Records semi-fame) put out Lois's Courtney Love (band) records as a way of showing Courtney (person) that she wasn't part of his little cool-kid in-group.
I once had to help Calvin Johnson renew his theater membership when I was living in Olympia, and to this day I savor the memory of his visible irritation at me not knowing who tf he was off of him just saying "I'm Calvin."
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:07 AM on July 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
I once had to help Calvin Johnson renew his theater membership when I was living in Olympia, and to this day I savor the memory of his visible irritation at me not knowing who tf he was off of him just saying "I'm Calvin."
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:07 AM on July 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
a friend was talking about a Mike Nesmith autobiography he read recently (an ex-Monkee). Apparently Nesmith describes that phase of his life (when he didn't just assume that people knew who he was; he'd be annoyed at them if they didn't) as the evil phase of his life. More evidence that fame just isn't good for you.
posted by philip-random at 7:29 AM on July 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 7:29 AM on July 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
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posted by SansPoint at 7:26 AM on July 1, 2021 [3 favorites]