Three Two One LET'S JAM
August 23, 2021 7:13 AM Subscribe
First photos from Netflix's live-action Cowboy Bebop, with plenty of Spike, Jet, Faye, and even a cameo by Ein. (But where is Ed?)
A reminder that SEATBELTS is still together and still performing.
TANK! Virtual Session 2020 by SEATBELTS
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
TANK! Virtual Session 2020 by SEATBELTS
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2021 [16 favorites]
The actors look totally lost, like they don't have the faintest clue what their characters are. Also god is Spike's suit bad.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:39 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:39 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
(Is Ed going to be an AI in this version? An annoying AI?)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 7:50 AM on August 23, 2021
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 7:50 AM on August 23, 2021
Nah, I'm here for this. I'm especially here for a Cowboy Bebop production that involves BiPOC as every other attempt to get this off the ground seemed to be whitewashed.
Haters gonna hate, but I am definitely on board to see this. I heard that Ed is going to be in it but no casting news has been revealed. Cowboy Bebop marks me out as an anime basic B because it is my favourite.
posted by Kitteh at 7:57 AM on August 23, 2021 [47 favorites]
Haters gonna hate, but I am definitely on board to see this. I heard that Ed is going to be in it but no casting news has been revealed. Cowboy Bebop marks me out as an anime basic B because it is my favourite.
posted by Kitteh at 7:57 AM on August 23, 2021 [47 favorites]
A reminder that SEATBELTS is still together and still performing.
That was so good! Netflix should give Seatbelts a series. "A group of grizzled jazz cats travel the galaxy stealing hearts and solving crimes..."
IMHO Netflix has a pretty lousy record when it comes to live action SciFi series (ones with spaceships and such, they can do supernatural/horror just fine.) Fingers crossed for this one.
posted by gwint at 8:03 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
That was so good! Netflix should give Seatbelts a series. "A group of grizzled jazz cats travel the galaxy stealing hearts and solving crimes..."
IMHO Netflix has a pretty lousy record when it comes to live action SciFi series (ones with spaceships and such, they can do supernatural/horror just fine.) Fingers crossed for this one.
posted by gwint at 8:03 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm really curious how they're going to handle the soundtrack. The originals absolutely sprawling soundtrack, seemingly with a new three minute song backing every scene change, was such a chore part of the show... Will there be new Seatbelts tracks, reuse of the existing thousand minutes of music, or something else entirely? I think the truest route would be to reuse the theme song and then commission another twelve hours of music from Yoko Kano.
posted by kaibutsu at 8:07 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 8:07 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
"The actors look totally lost, like they don't have the faintest clue what their characters are."
Maybe we should wait until we see these people actually acting in this live action show before we decide that they don't have "the faintest clue what their characters are", rather than making judgments based on still photos shot by a photographer who was hired to shoot promotional photos.
posted by jonathanhughes at 8:13 AM on August 23, 2021 [60 favorites]
Maybe we should wait until we see these people actually acting in this live action show before we decide that they don't have "the faintest clue what their characters are", rather than making judgments based on still photos shot by a photographer who was hired to shoot promotional photos.
posted by jonathanhughes at 8:13 AM on August 23, 2021 [60 favorites]
Depending on how true they’re staying to the series, Ed doesn’t appear until episode nine.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:15 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:15 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
I always imagined Spike looking more like a handsomer Andy Samberg, not sure why, but John Cho is looking pretty good in the role too so far. Think he needs to work on the signature "smug smile" but could chalk that up to photographer here pushing for "serious badass" face. Jet and Faye looking great overall. Really impressed with the Faye outfit, manages to capture the same vibe without the same level of overbearing-teen-horniness design.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:21 AM on August 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:21 AM on August 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
Haters hate haters hating "haters gonna hate" haters hating haters hating "haters gonna hate" haters.
posted by glonous keming at 8:25 AM on August 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 8:25 AM on August 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
In the picture 4 of 9 Faye is using the wrong gun.
This is a notion in fandom that I just do not understand. What does it mean to be using "the wrong gun"? This is the gun she is using in this series, it is neither correct nor incorrect . . . it just is!
posted by Think_Long at 8:30 AM on August 23, 2021 [24 favorites]
This is a notion in fandom that I just do not understand. What does it mean to be using "the wrong gun"? This is the gun she is using in this series, it is neither correct nor incorrect . . . it just is!
posted by Think_Long at 8:30 AM on August 23, 2021 [24 favorites]
My optimism for this is more than cautious, but not quite reckless.
posted by Foosnark at 8:33 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 8:33 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm not a big fan of the outfits. I feel making them look like costumes kinda misses the point of making a live action movie, a problem most of these anime adaptations have.
posted by simmering octagon at 8:37 AM on August 23, 2021
posted by simmering octagon at 8:37 AM on August 23, 2021
I want that blue suit. So cool.
posted by cosmac at 8:41 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by cosmac at 8:41 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Obligatory "surely it will be better than that Death Note
adaptation".
I checked 3 times before posting this and never once saw Willem Dafoe in costume.
posted by NervousVarun at 8:42 AM on August 23, 2021
adaptation".
I checked 3 times before posting this and never once saw Willem Dafoe in costume.
posted by NervousVarun at 8:42 AM on August 23, 2021
The corgi is clearly just phoning it in. I can tell by the pixels.
posted by Drastic at 8:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [35 favorites]
posted by Drastic at 8:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [35 favorites]
such a chore part of the show
Typo? Or did you really not like the soundtrack?
posted by Paul Slade at 8:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Typo? Or did you really not like the soundtrack?
posted by Paul Slade at 8:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
the outfits. I feel making them look like costumes
Huh? They look like clothes to me.
posted by eviemath at 8:46 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Huh? They look like clothes to me.
posted by eviemath at 8:46 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
The original anime had some interesting themes, a killer aesthetic and exceptional, first-in-its-class, pacing (there was so much tonal whiplash, but they made it work really well). I'm not sure the aesthetic and pacing can be replicated unless they have an exceptional script and exceptional team of writers. So, I wouldn't try to do an episode-by-episode remake. Therefore, I would try to double-down on theming in one of two ways:
Option 1: Make Jet the main/pov character. Through him, as an ex cop/investigator, we the audience investigate why Spike has a death-wish, Faye's origin and why Ed is Ed, stuff like that, stuff like that.
Option 2: Make Faye the main/pov character. This story is a fish-out-of-water working with a bunch of fishes-out-of-water. Double down on the original show's weirdness and become legends. Get crazy: make Ed and Ein the narrators a-la rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead.
posted by Groundhog Week at 9:02 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
Option 1: Make Jet the main/pov character. Through him, as an ex cop/investigator, we the audience investigate why Spike has a death-wish, Faye's origin and why Ed is Ed, stuff like that, stuff like that.
Option 2: Make Faye the main/pov character. This story is a fish-out-of-water working with a bunch of fishes-out-of-water. Double down on the original show's weirdness and become legends. Get crazy: make Ed and Ein the narrators a-la rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead.
posted by Groundhog Week at 9:02 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
Oh, I'll watch it. I want it to work. The original is such a high bar.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:08 AM on August 23, 2021
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:08 AM on August 23, 2021
> This is a notion in fandom that I just do not understand.
The characters in the anime have realistic signature weapons that are part of their character designs and help define who they are. (With some exceptions,) Spike uses an IMI Jericho, Jet uses a Walther P99, and Faye uses a Glock 30. The anime artists were quite specific in their artwork. If, as a viewer, this level of detail isn't important, then that's fine, but for viewers who are interested in the gun nerditry aspect of it, it's a very easy detail to get right, as I'm sure there are plenty of Glock replicas available to the production team since it's one of the most popular handguns in the world.
I only commented about Faye's armament because I couldn't tell what Jet and Spike were using. Glocks have a distinctive square slide that made it easy to see the difference in this photograph.
I chose my words poorly when I said "wrong gun" as that implies a value judgement. I should have said "different gun" as that would be a neutral factual statement. I'm not sure what she is using in that picture (looks like maybe a Bruniton-finish Beretta PX4 but it's probably not tbh, they're not very popular) but it's definitely not a Glock.
Overall, I guess my point is that in selecting accessories for characters in adaptations of existing, beloved works, details are noticed by fans of the work for better and for worse, and in this particular case it would have been incredible easy to select the same accessory, and in this particular case nothing seems to be gained by selecting a different accessory. Changing details of an existing work are a valid aspect of the artistic interpretation of the creators doing the adaptation, but in my opinion it can be equally valid for fans of the original interpretation to compare and critique those changes.
posted by glonous keming at 9:09 AM on August 23, 2021 [20 favorites]
The characters in the anime have realistic signature weapons that are part of their character designs and help define who they are. (With some exceptions,) Spike uses an IMI Jericho, Jet uses a Walther P99, and Faye uses a Glock 30. The anime artists were quite specific in their artwork. If, as a viewer, this level of detail isn't important, then that's fine, but for viewers who are interested in the gun nerditry aspect of it, it's a very easy detail to get right, as I'm sure there are plenty of Glock replicas available to the production team since it's one of the most popular handguns in the world.
I only commented about Faye's armament because I couldn't tell what Jet and Spike were using. Glocks have a distinctive square slide that made it easy to see the difference in this photograph.
I chose my words poorly when I said "wrong gun" as that implies a value judgement. I should have said "different gun" as that would be a neutral factual statement. I'm not sure what she is using in that picture (looks like maybe a Bruniton-finish Beretta PX4 but it's probably not tbh, they're not very popular) but it's definitely not a Glock.
Overall, I guess my point is that in selecting accessories for characters in adaptations of existing, beloved works, details are noticed by fans of the work for better and for worse, and in this particular case it would have been incredible easy to select the same accessory, and in this particular case nothing seems to be gained by selecting a different accessory. Changing details of an existing work are a valid aspect of the artistic interpretation of the creators doing the adaptation, but in my opinion it can be equally valid for fans of the original interpretation to compare and critique those changes.
posted by glonous keming at 9:09 AM on August 23, 2021 [20 favorites]
These are such early promotional photos that it wouldn't surprise me if the props hadn't been finalized and they were using stand-ins. For example, in photo number 5 Faye's holster is empty.
posted by jedicus at 9:14 AM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 9:14 AM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Cue one million fanboys jumping up and down about how Faye's outfit isn't skimpy enough.
I always thought John Cho was perfectly cast as Spike, and these pictures are just confirmation of that.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:17 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
I always thought John Cho was perfectly cast as Spike, and these pictures are just confirmation of that.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:17 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
I was intrigued as soon as they announced John Cho as Spike - it's an interesting choice but one I could see working, he's an underrated actor, and I was happy with the casting of Jet and Faye as well. I think these costumes look great - Spike's suit looks the right level of used future, and Faye's outfit is clearly drawing from the original but is also something you wouldn't be embarrassed to put an actress in. They did manage to coax Yoko Kanno out of retirement, which I'm of two minds about but her work was so integral to the series that it would have been hard for another composer to match, but then Square Enix's sound team is managing to top Nobuo Uematsu so it can be done.
But like Groundhog Week said, the difficulty in a Cowboy Bebop adaptation is the script - it's going to be hard to take one of the best TV shows to ever come out of Japan and boil it down into a serialised format without losing the original's signature tonal whiplash, quiet moments and character building. That was always the question hanging over it (well, that and whether they could get a decent choreographer so the fight scenes don't look like Daredevil's).
If, as a viewer, this level of detail isn't important, then that's fine, but for viewers who are interested in the gun nerditry aspect of it, it's a very easy detail to get right, as I'm sure there are plenty of Glock replicas available to the production team since it's one of the most popular handguns in the world.
To be honest, I don't think preserving the anime's guns is as important as ensuring that whatever gun they do use is appropriate for the character.
posted by Merus at 9:19 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
But like Groundhog Week said, the difficulty in a Cowboy Bebop adaptation is the script - it's going to be hard to take one of the best TV shows to ever come out of Japan and boil it down into a serialised format without losing the original's signature tonal whiplash, quiet moments and character building. That was always the question hanging over it (well, that and whether they could get a decent choreographer so the fight scenes don't look like Daredevil's).
If, as a viewer, this level of detail isn't important, then that's fine, but for viewers who are interested in the gun nerditry aspect of it, it's a very easy detail to get right, as I'm sure there are plenty of Glock replicas available to the production team since it's one of the most popular handguns in the world.
To be honest, I don't think preserving the anime's guns is as important as ensuring that whatever gun they do use is appropriate for the character.
posted by Merus at 9:19 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
I like John Cho as an actor, and I could well see him doing a good job with the role, but I do wonder how it will affect the story to age Spike up.
One the one hand, Spike already has a pretty crammed CV at the start of the plot, and making him older might help the plausibility, might make the world-weariness feel more earned.
On the other hand, maybe that's not an insignifcant part of the appeal of the source material, that the world weariness is actually very much a younger person's world weariness. Maybe Spike is precisely so trapped by his past because he hasn't yet had enough of if, to dull its significance. His is such a romantic sense of doom - to me that feels like a young person's prerogative.
I also wonder how it will affect the dynamic between Jet and Spike. Jet's clearly older in the anime, but here they seem roughly the same age.
posted by sohalt at 9:24 AM on August 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
One the one hand, Spike already has a pretty crammed CV at the start of the plot, and making him older might help the plausibility, might make the world-weariness feel more earned.
On the other hand, maybe that's not an insignifcant part of the appeal of the source material, that the world weariness is actually very much a younger person's world weariness. Maybe Spike is precisely so trapped by his past because he hasn't yet had enough of if, to dull its significance. His is such a romantic sense of doom - to me that feels like a young person's prerogative.
I also wonder how it will affect the dynamic between Jet and Spike. Jet's clearly older in the anime, but here they seem roughly the same age.
posted by sohalt at 9:24 AM on August 23, 2021 [10 favorites]
Netflix has a pretty lousy record when it comes to live action SciFi series (ones with spaceships...
I actually can't think of a good example.
posted by ovvl at 9:39 AM on August 23, 2021
I actually can't think of a good example.
posted by ovvl at 9:39 AM on August 23, 2021
I actually quite enjoyed the recently aborted Lost In Space series.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
> in photo number 5 Faye's holster is empty.
Well that explains why she was using the wrong gun in picture 4.
posted by Phssthpok at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Well that explains why she was using the wrong gun in picture 4.
posted by Phssthpok at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Full disclosure: I've never seen Cowboy Bebop.
That said, I think these costume designs are really good. In the same way that great design in animation often leads to being able to identify characters by their silhouette, I think live-action adaptations work well when characters can be easily identified by someone with even the most casual understanding of what's being adapted.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:54 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
That said, I think these costume designs are really good. In the same way that great design in animation often leads to being able to identify characters by their silhouette, I think live-action adaptations work well when characters can be easily identified by someone with even the most casual understanding of what's being adapted.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:54 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Nah, I'm here for this. I'm especially here for a Cowboy Bebop production that involves BiPOC as every other attempt to get this off the ground seemed to be whitewashed.
But it just shouldn't exist at all, no matter who they cast.
If you want to take about "hating", what I hate is this pervasive idea in the West/Hollywood that animation, especially anime, is inherently inferior and needs to be elevated by adaptation into a real art form.
Just show the Cowboy Bebop anime, the show that already exists and is excellent. What is gained by this adaptation? What was lacking in the original that needs to be addressed here? An animated show is just as valid as a live action one, I wish people would knock this shit off already. Every time I hear about one of these anime adaptations, just...why? And it's never something mediocre that might benefit from a better adaptation, it's always some widely-beloved classic that people should just watch if they want to see something good.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:18 AM on August 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
But it just shouldn't exist at all, no matter who they cast.
If you want to take about "hating", what I hate is this pervasive idea in the West/Hollywood that animation, especially anime, is inherently inferior and needs to be elevated by adaptation into a real art form.
Just show the Cowboy Bebop anime, the show that already exists and is excellent. What is gained by this adaptation? What was lacking in the original that needs to be addressed here? An animated show is just as valid as a live action one, I wish people would knock this shit off already. Every time I hear about one of these anime adaptations, just...why? And it's never something mediocre that might benefit from a better adaptation, it's always some widely-beloved classic that people should just watch if they want to see something good.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:18 AM on August 23, 2021 [12 favorites]
I had a friend say the same thing, but the thing is--while I agree with both of you--it's going to happen anyway.
And well, if they are determined to do it, I want them to do it without having to make every major character white.
posted by Kitteh at 10:25 AM on August 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
And well, if they are determined to do it, I want them to do it without having to make every major character white.
posted by Kitteh at 10:25 AM on August 23, 2021 [8 favorites]
I would maybe give it a try if they release a Japanese dub and I can turn on English subs.
Also agree that this has no real need to exist in my book but it is good to see the diversity in casting.
A more positive spin is that it may draw previously hesitant people to see the source, and ultimately maybe keep Spike and the gang alive in our culture for longer.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:28 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also agree that this has no real need to exist in my book but it is good to see the diversity in casting.
A more positive spin is that it may draw previously hesitant people to see the source, and ultimately maybe keep Spike and the gang alive in our culture for longer.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:28 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
Just show the Cowboy Bebop anime, the show that already exists and is excellent. What is gained by this adaptation?
Retellings are an important part of myth-making. I don't think this is about more or less valid art forms; a story with enduring appeal will naturally inspire remakes as other people also want to play with these toys, it's just the cycle of liiiiife.
Other things that inspire remakes are of course business appetites for known quantities and manageable risks; I do understand a certain sense of annoyance. I also wish industry types would invest more in original narratives, but not necessarily because I think there needs to be a definitive version.
posted by sohalt at 10:30 AM on August 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
Retellings are an important part of myth-making. I don't think this is about more or less valid art forms; a story with enduring appeal will naturally inspire remakes as other people also want to play with these toys, it's just the cycle of liiiiife.
Other things that inspire remakes are of course business appetites for known quantities and manageable risks; I do understand a certain sense of annoyance. I also wish industry types would invest more in original narratives, but not necessarily because I think there needs to be a definitive version.
posted by sohalt at 10:30 AM on August 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
What is gained by this adaptation? What was lacking in the original that needs to be addressed here?
Money in Hollywood people's pockets.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:31 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
Money in Hollywood people's pockets.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:31 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
What is gained by this adaptation? What was lacking in the original that needs to be addressed here?
I appreciate that Faye is allowed to wear clothing.
posted by Anonymous at 10:32 AM on August 23, 2021
I appreciate that Faye is allowed to wear clothing.
posted by Anonymous at 10:32 AM on August 23, 2021
But it just shouldn't exist at all, no matter who they cast.
Eh, it's not like animation is some kind of pure reserve either. Why do it? Because the companies involved think they'll make money. There are certainly enough anime that have been made into live-action (in Japan) and vice versa that it's not even particularly surprising. Western studios don't have a great track record in this area, but maybe this will be the one that surprises.
Does The Seven Samurai eliminate the value of The Magnificent 7? How about Samurai 7, the SF anime reskinning of the same story? I kind of prefer the 3rd to the 2nd, but remakes and reworkings are part of commercial film/TV.
I kind of hope they don't just try to retell the story, except as a vague outline, so the actors have a chance to make these characters their own.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:34 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
Eh, it's not like animation is some kind of pure reserve either. Why do it? Because the companies involved think they'll make money. There are certainly enough anime that have been made into live-action (in Japan) and vice versa that it's not even particularly surprising. Western studios don't have a great track record in this area, but maybe this will be the one that surprises.
Does The Seven Samurai eliminate the value of The Magnificent 7? How about Samurai 7, the SF anime reskinning of the same story? I kind of prefer the 3rd to the 2nd, but remakes and reworkings are part of commercial film/TV.
I kind of hope they don't just try to retell the story, except as a vague outline, so the actors have a chance to make these characters their own.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:34 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
I have similar mixed feelings about Netflix’s Avatar: The Last Airbender reboot.
posted by mbrubeck at 10:35 AM on August 23, 2021
posted by mbrubeck at 10:35 AM on August 23, 2021
I thought at first, "Dang Spike's suit looks kinda cheap"
but then I thought, "Well... yeah."
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 10:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [21 favorites]
but then I thought, "Well... yeah."
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 10:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [21 favorites]
Just show the Cowboy Bebop anime, the show that already exists and is excellent.
...and which I have seen over 30 times since the early 2000s. I love the source material but I'm happy to see different air breathed into it one way or another.
For that matter why did they bother to make the anime at all, when there is the brilliant original manga for people to enjoy? Oh, that's not the same because the anime brings motion and sound? Well live action gives the anime physicality and constraints, lighting and 3-D heft. It's not because one is superior to the other, it's that each medium has its own rules and gifts.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:44 AM on August 23, 2021 [21 favorites]
...and which I have seen over 30 times since the early 2000s. I love the source material but I'm happy to see different air breathed into it one way or another.
For that matter why did they bother to make the anime at all, when there is the brilliant original manga for people to enjoy? Oh, that's not the same because the anime brings motion and sound? Well live action gives the anime physicality and constraints, lighting and 3-D heft. It's not because one is superior to the other, it's that each medium has its own rules and gifts.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:44 AM on August 23, 2021 [21 favorites]
I can't wait to see the Broadway musical adaptation of Cowboy Bebop then.
posted by FJT at 10:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by FJT at 10:45 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
I mean, I hate musicals but I would never say they shouldn't be made. Make the art and let folks sort out for themselves what's good and bad and in-between, what's for them and not for them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:46 AM on August 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:46 AM on August 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
If you want to take about "hating", what I hate is this pervasive idea in the West/Hollywood that animation, especially anime, is inherently inferior and needs to be elevated by adaptation into a real art form.
Just show the Cowboy Bebop anime, the show that already exists and is excellent.
Cowboy Bebop is routinely streamed on Adult Swim (and available to stream, free-to-all) , can be purchased from Google Play (although I guess people complain about the subs - themselves an adaptation of original Japanese dialogue, like the dubs that I originally watched), and is likely available from other outlets. The thing we like is still there, extant in the world, and untouched.
The Attack On Titan manga has been adapted as both an anime TV series and a Japanese movie, and I have no doubt that I’m cherry picking one example from a crowded field that a true Japanophile would know better. This isn’t just some western phenomenon here. Similarly, I remember watching Tenchi Muyo every so often as a child and being flummoxed but then going along with the fact that the show seemed to have at least once rebooted itself with all of the exact same characters and personality traits but moved to a different time and place. At the time, egregiously moving characters between worlds seemed to me a solely Japanese thing. That isn’t true, of course, but the point is that re-adaptation of property seems to be universally done.
I did a bit of a rewatch recently, and while the show seemed to have mostly aged fine there are decidedly bits of it that feel off - There’s a very good reason that Faye’s outfit in the Netflix show isn’t the same as the outfit she wears in the anime, and the implied rape scene in the movie is, uh, not pleasant or really necessary. (Also -scandalous! I think that Julia is a poorly defined character who makes little sense as an eternal love interest, the central Spike-Vicious conflict is meh, and the current cultural moment will perhaps allow for a much better “Jupiter Jazz” episode - or at least a different one.)
Anyhow! All of that is really to say that yes, this isn’t “essential”, but I personally have no beefs that the market wants it and think that it could take an aging IP to some fun new places. At the worst, some college senior will get to write a thesis with a title like “Hello Again, Space Cowboy: The Challenges Of Re-Adapting Legacy Anime For The 2020s”.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:51 AM on August 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
Just show the Cowboy Bebop anime, the show that already exists and is excellent.
Cowboy Bebop is routinely streamed on Adult Swim (and available to stream, free-to-all) , can be purchased from Google Play (although I guess people complain about the subs - themselves an adaptation of original Japanese dialogue, like the dubs that I originally watched), and is likely available from other outlets. The thing we like is still there, extant in the world, and untouched.
The Attack On Titan manga has been adapted as both an anime TV series and a Japanese movie, and I have no doubt that I’m cherry picking one example from a crowded field that a true Japanophile would know better. This isn’t just some western phenomenon here. Similarly, I remember watching Tenchi Muyo every so often as a child and being flummoxed but then going along with the fact that the show seemed to have at least once rebooted itself with all of the exact same characters and personality traits but moved to a different time and place. At the time, egregiously moving characters between worlds seemed to me a solely Japanese thing. That isn’t true, of course, but the point is that re-adaptation of property seems to be universally done.
I did a bit of a rewatch recently, and while the show seemed to have mostly aged fine there are decidedly bits of it that feel off - There’s a very good reason that Faye’s outfit in the Netflix show isn’t the same as the outfit she wears in the anime, and the implied rape scene in the movie is, uh, not pleasant or really necessary. (Also -scandalous! I think that Julia is a poorly defined character who makes little sense as an eternal love interest, the central Spike-Vicious conflict is meh, and the current cultural moment will perhaps allow for a much better “Jupiter Jazz” episode - or at least a different one.)
Anyhow! All of that is really to say that yes, this isn’t “essential”, but I personally have no beefs that the market wants it and think that it could take an aging IP to some fun new places. At the worst, some college senior will get to write a thesis with a title like “Hello Again, Space Cowboy: The Challenges Of Re-Adapting Legacy Anime For The 2020s”.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:51 AM on August 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
For that matter why did they bother to make the anime at all, when there is the brilliant original manga for people to enjoy?
Uh, I think the manga actually postdates the anime in this case?
posted by Going To Maine at 10:52 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
Uh, I think the manga actually postdates the anime in this case?
posted by Going To Maine at 10:52 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
Love the casting! Very nice to see three POC leads. And I agree that the interpretation of Faye's outfit is refreshing.
The costumes do come off like cheap cosplay in a few shots, but they look really good in the photos with proper moody lighting. So hopefully some of the less flattering photos are just reflective of this being a promo shoot, and the show itself gets it right.
posted by Emily's Fist at 10:54 AM on August 23, 2021
The costumes do come off like cheap cosplay in a few shots, but they look really good in the photos with proper moody lighting. So hopefully some of the less flattering photos are just reflective of this being a promo shoot, and the show itself gets it right.
posted by Emily's Fist at 10:54 AM on August 23, 2021
But it just shouldn't exist at all, no matter who they cast.
Let people enjoy things
There are people who'll never consider watching Anime. A live action show or movie will introduce people to the mythology that might not otherwise be introduced. If it's well done (hell, even if it's not) it might persuade people who wouldn't have watched the original to try it out.
In the end... it doesn't rob you of your enjoyment of the original, does it? You can just ignore it if you don't want to see it.
There are properties I love that have been turned into what I'd consider terrible shows. It's not what I'd have chosen but I still have the original source materials to enjoy. (I'm thinking here, for example, of Lucifer and its TV adaptation. I can only hope some small percentage of people who liked the show actually checked out the comics...)
posted by jzb at 10:55 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
Let people enjoy things
There are people who'll never consider watching Anime. A live action show or movie will introduce people to the mythology that might not otherwise be introduced. If it's well done (hell, even if it's not) it might persuade people who wouldn't have watched the original to try it out.
In the end... it doesn't rob you of your enjoyment of the original, does it? You can just ignore it if you don't want to see it.
There are properties I love that have been turned into what I'd consider terrible shows. It's not what I'd have chosen but I still have the original source materials to enjoy. (I'm thinking here, for example, of Lucifer and its TV adaptation. I can only hope some small percentage of people who liked the show actually checked out the comics...)
posted by jzb at 10:55 AM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
Uh, I think the manga actually postdates the anime in this case?
Well in that case one can just reverse the terms in my argument, to ask whether making a manga of the anime was as blatantly pointless as making a live-action. And certainly there are enough anime series out there based on pre-existing beloved manga that the question is relevant.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:56 AM on August 23, 2021
Well in that case one can just reverse the terms in my argument, to ask whether making a manga of the anime was as blatantly pointless as making a live-action. And certainly there are enough anime series out there based on pre-existing beloved manga that the question is relevant.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:56 AM on August 23, 2021
Uh, I think the manga actually postdates the anime in this case?
Indeed.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:56 AM on August 23, 2021
Indeed.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:56 AM on August 23, 2021
OK, how about why was the anime movie of Howl's Moving Castle made? It's pretty, but it's a pale reflection of the novel.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:00 AM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:00 AM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
when there is the brilliant original manga for people to enjoy?
Oh, I completely agree, but the world isn't ready yet. Anime originals only, please.
Let people enjoy things
Heh, you do know how that comic's creator, Adam Ellis, later followed that strip up due to its overuse in deflecting all criticism of anything and justifying shit, right?
There are people who'll never consider watching Anime.
"People". Let them suffer in their self-made cultural voids, then.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:04 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
Oh, I completely agree, but the world isn't ready yet. Anime originals only, please.
Let people enjoy things
Heh, you do know how that comic's creator, Adam Ellis, later followed that strip up due to its overuse in deflecting all criticism of anything and justifying shit, right?
There are people who'll never consider watching Anime.
"People". Let them suffer in their self-made cultural voids, then.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:04 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
what I hate is this pervasive idea in the West/Hollywood that animation, especially anime, is inherently inferior and needs to be elevated by adaptation into a real art form.
The Attack On Titan manga has been adapted as both an anime TV series and a Japanese movie, and I have no doubt that I’m cherry picking one example from a crowded field that a true Japanophile would know better.
On the Wikipedia page List of films based on manga, the US has 12 live action entries. Japan has 336.
posted by Spiegel at 11:13 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
The Attack On Titan manga has been adapted as both an anime TV series and a Japanese movie, and I have no doubt that I’m cherry picking one example from a crowded field that a true Japanophile would know better.
On the Wikipedia page List of films based on manga, the US has 12 live action entries. Japan has 336.
posted by Spiegel at 11:13 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
I, like many here, simply don't understand live-action adaptation of animated works. I've never seen one that brought anything fresh or improved to the table, but I haven't seen a lot of them period. Something like Julie Tamor's Broadway The Lion King might work, but the "live action" Lion King that was just animation in a different package does have to kind of make you shake your head.
I DO like that this opens up the option of multiracial casting and better costumes for Faye, but it often seems like the bad choices end up outweighing the good in these things. I guess we'll see. I can't understand the desire to remake ATLA either. We can say that bad remakes don't tarnish the originals, but in the popular imagination they certainly do.
posted by rikschell at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
I DO like that this opens up the option of multiracial casting and better costumes for Faye, but it often seems like the bad choices end up outweighing the good in these things. I guess we'll see. I can't understand the desire to remake ATLA either. We can say that bad remakes don't tarnish the originals, but in the popular imagination they certainly do.
posted by rikschell at 11:27 AM on August 23, 2021 [4 favorites]
Then there is the case of the "Boogiepop" story line, which started as a light novel series, became a manga, then a live-action film, then an anime series, (and maybe a new anime series?). The various versions don't replace each other, exactly (the first anime is a sequel to the live action film, which is, I guess, a reworking of the novels/manga). So I'm not even sure what the "real format" is there.....
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:29 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:29 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can't wait to see the Broadway musical adaptation of Cowboy Bebop then.
That actually sent me on a trawl, and it seems one of the few big anime properties that hasn't seen a musical adaptation in Japan yet. Maybe because it's more popular / cult outside Japan? You'd think all those songs would have a musical ready-made.
(You think I'm kidding? Legend of the Galactic Heroes was made into FIFTEEN stage shows and a musical. Broadway has nothing on the volume of production of Japanese musical theatre.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:34 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
That actually sent me on a trawl, and it seems one of the few big anime properties that hasn't seen a musical adaptation in Japan yet. Maybe because it's more popular / cult outside Japan? You'd think all those songs would have a musical ready-made.
(You think I'm kidding? Legend of the Galactic Heroes was made into FIFTEEN stage shows and a musical. Broadway has nothing on the volume of production of Japanese musical theatre.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:34 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
If you want to take about "hating", what I hate is this pervasive idea in the West/Hollywood that animation, especially anime, is inherently inferior and needs to be elevated by adaptation into a real art form.
None of this is high art, it's all popular media. Each firm is trying to make stuff that will sell in their target market, it's not about what's real art, just what will make money. There have been plenty of Japanese adaptations of Western media too.
posted by lemur at 11:35 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
" Also god is Spike's suit bad."
Um, it's a pretty faithful adaptation of the original. So....
(Well, actually, in the anime it's pretty clear that the suit is hanging open, while in adaptation it's a one-lapel suit. (It's arguable that in the anime the suit is designed to be worn open or that it's a very unusual flap that mimics a lapel. It is definitionally not the single, notched lapel that we see in the pictures.) Nevertheless, visually it hits pretty much the same note, but fashion cognoscenti would note the difference.)
But if you're complaining about one detail of the suit of one of characters then, buddy, this remake is maybe not for you.
(Heck, I'd argue that the changes to Jet's metal elements are more noticeable, never mind Faye's changes.)
posted by oddman at 11:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Um, it's a pretty faithful adaptation of the original. So....
(Well, actually, in the anime it's pretty clear that the suit is hanging open, while in adaptation it's a one-lapel suit. (It's arguable that in the anime the suit is designed to be worn open or that it's a very unusual flap that mimics a lapel. It is definitionally not the single, notched lapel that we see in the pictures.) Nevertheless, visually it hits pretty much the same note, but fashion cognoscenti would note the difference.)
But if you're complaining about one detail of the suit of one of characters then, buddy, this remake is maybe not for you.
(Heck, I'd argue that the changes to Jet's metal elements are more noticeable, never mind Faye's changes.)
posted by oddman at 11:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Reconsidering my very long response above, I find it kind of curious to consider how over my life my position has slid from “why would you see the movie when the book is the real thing?” to “people have been re-adapting material since the dawn of time, so while you might not like a particular adaptation to object to the general practice is to reject history and the actual ways in which media have been and are consumed.”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:37 AM on August 23, 2021 [7 favorites]
And let's be clear, the real atrocity is that they think Ein needs a leash.
THE GALL.
posted by oddman at 11:38 AM on August 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
THE GALL.
posted by oddman at 11:38 AM on August 23, 2021 [15 favorites]
I can't wait to see the Broadway musical adaptation of Cowboy Bebop then.
Man, now I’m imagining that ten years down the line (fewer?) we’re going to get FORTNITE: The musical and it’s going to be a technical extravaganza.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:39 AM on August 23, 2021
Man, now I’m imagining that ten years down the line (fewer?) we’re going to get FORTNITE: The musical and it’s going to be a technical extravaganza.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:39 AM on August 23, 2021
Legend of the Galactic Heroes was made into FIFTEEN stage shows and a musical.
Now if someone would just make a rock opera version of The Harlock Saga, which is basically a retelling of The Ring of the Nibelung, that would be something!
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:39 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now if someone would just make a rock opera version of The Harlock Saga, which is basically a retelling of The Ring of the Nibelung, that would be something!
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:39 AM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've imagined 'way down the line' to be post-apocalyptic types staging episodes of the legendary Star Trek with the only, quite minimalist costumes being handmade, pinned-on starship insignia; and facial prosthetics to identify the aliens.
posted by Rash at 11:44 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Rash at 11:44 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Think he needs to work on the signature "smug smile" but could chalk that up to photographer here pushing for "serious badass" face.
Honestly, this is the main concern I have going in: these people are supposed to be losers, and Netflix is showing almost none of that context in these photos. Yes, they're all cool, yes they all have depth ("Speak as a Child" is best ep, FIGHT ME), but also, these are supposed to be fuck-ups. In the anime they all lose way more often than they win. Hell, it's arguably the driving force of the show, all the way up to the end.
I'm gonna give it a go, but I'm getting big "Leverage, but in spaaaaaaaaaace" vibes off of these pics.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:46 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Honestly, this is the main concern I have going in: these people are supposed to be losers, and Netflix is showing almost none of that context in these photos. Yes, they're all cool, yes they all have depth ("Speak as a Child" is best ep, FIGHT ME), but also, these are supposed to be fuck-ups. In the anime they all lose way more often than they win. Hell, it's arguably the driving force of the show, all the way up to the end.
I'm gonna give it a go, but I'm getting big "Leverage, but in spaaaaaaaaaace" vibes off of these pics.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:46 AM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
(Okay, yes, the original is arguably "lupin III, but in spaaaaaaace" but it's not 2002 anymore, let's move on to new silly arguments)
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:48 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:48 AM on August 23, 2021 [5 favorites]
A few weeks back I decided to get the Blu-Ray set of Cowboy Bebop solely on the premise that I'd always heard it was one of the great TV series of all-time.
I was blown away. In my opinion, best use of music in a television series, ever. The fact that they were generally (all?) original compositions was mind-boggling. I assumed the opening Tank, was a classic jazz piece. No, it was made for the series.
Which gets me another GOAT: the opening credits (above link). Dazzling. When I watched all 26 episodes, I never skipped the opening credits.
Some of the individual episodes were great, all-time classics, some were merely okay. Overall, one of the best series ever (animation or not).
I would recommend it for all of my non-anime friends, except for the fact that Faye is dressed like a pole dancer. She's a great character. It seemed insulting. I realize that anime is not unique for this, American comics leave their heroines scantily clad and twisty-waisted.
Also, ED, is an annoying trope I could do without.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:56 AM on August 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
I was blown away. In my opinion, best use of music in a television series, ever. The fact that they were generally (all?) original compositions was mind-boggling. I assumed the opening Tank, was a classic jazz piece. No, it was made for the series.
Which gets me another GOAT: the opening credits (above link). Dazzling. When I watched all 26 episodes, I never skipped the opening credits.
Some of the individual episodes were great, all-time classics, some were merely okay. Overall, one of the best series ever (animation or not).
I would recommend it for all of my non-anime friends, except for the fact that Faye is dressed like a pole dancer. She's a great character. It seemed insulting. I realize that anime is not unique for this, American comics leave their heroines scantily clad and twisty-waisted.
Also, ED, is an annoying trope I could do without.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:56 AM on August 23, 2021 [9 favorites]
Saw some grognard on Twitter complain that Faye was too modestly dressed, because it's "part of her character" to show all the skin possible. As opposed to the prairie dress she's wearing now, I suppose.
In this darker setting, I am not sure what they'll want to do with the great weirdness and indeterminate gender of Ed. There is a tiny cute Ed-like girl listed as "Kimmie Black" on IMDB. I don't remember the series well enough -- did this character exist?
posted by Countess Elena at 12:02 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
In this darker setting, I am not sure what they'll want to do with the great weirdness and indeterminate gender of Ed. There is a tiny cute Ed-like girl listed as "Kimmie Black" on IMDB. I don't remember the series well enough -- did this character exist?
posted by Countess Elena at 12:02 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
No.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2021
posted by Going To Maine at 12:13 PM on August 23, 2021
Last name Black suggests a theoretical Jet's daughter.
posted by glonous keming at 12:15 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 12:15 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
I do think Faye's hair should be purple-er, though. I love Faye's purple hair in the anime.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:21 PM on August 23, 2021
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:21 PM on August 23, 2021
Exactly how does a corgi phone it in?
posted by y2karl at 1:02 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 1:02 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
And where is the picture of Cowboy BeBop at his computer?
posted by dannyboybell at 1:06 PM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by dannyboybell at 1:06 PM on August 23, 2021 [6 favorites]
I thought at first, "Dang Spike's suit looks kinda cheap"
but then I thought, "Well... yeah."
Obviously adopting a cartoonish outfit to real life is hard, and I couldn't do any better but.... IMO, it looks too impossibly new. His shirt is all wrinkled, but the jacket looks too shiny, fresh off the rack or from the dry cleaners. It fits too well / tightly around the arms and not enough of the shirt / tie is visible vs most reference frames I checked on Google.
posted by pwnguin at 1:12 PM on August 23, 2021
but then I thought, "Well... yeah."
Obviously adopting a cartoonish outfit to real life is hard, and I couldn't do any better but.... IMO, it looks too impossibly new. His shirt is all wrinkled, but the jacket looks too shiny, fresh off the rack or from the dry cleaners. It fits too well / tightly around the arms and not enough of the shirt / tie is visible vs most reference frames I checked on Google.
posted by pwnguin at 1:12 PM on August 23, 2021
Exactly how does a corgi phone it in?
It has to use a touch-tone phone so it can boop each number.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:15 PM on August 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
It has to use a touch-tone phone so it can boop each number.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:15 PM on August 23, 2021 [17 favorites]
I just finished watching the third segment of the original Gundam OVA on Netflix. When I was watching it, I constantly thought to myself, 'Is this okay, should I have tracked down the original series before it was condensed into movies?' I kept telling myself that it is fine.
Especially in Japanese media, it is really normal to have the same story expressed in different formats. Arguing which one is better is part of the fun. I don't see it as a transgression to re-contextualize an already established story in a different way. It is done all of the time.
Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. It doesn't diffuse the brilliance of the original, and maybe it makes a few people watch it.
posted by Quonab at 1:16 PM on August 23, 2021
Especially in Japanese media, it is really normal to have the same story expressed in different formats. Arguing which one is better is part of the fun. I don't see it as a transgression to re-contextualize an already established story in a different way. It is done all of the time.
Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. It doesn't diffuse the brilliance of the original, and maybe it makes a few people watch it.
posted by Quonab at 1:16 PM on August 23, 2021
JThere are people who'll never consider watching Anime.
More importantly there are people for whom anime will never show up on their cultural radar. Until, that is, they find out that the source of their new favorite movie comes from there and go to watch it.
Cross-pollination of media is a great way for people to explore things they would never see otherwise.
Of course what will really kill current fans is when the new fans claim the live action series is better.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:16 PM on August 23, 2021
More importantly there are people for whom anime will never show up on their cultural radar. Until, that is, they find out that the source of their new favorite movie comes from there and go to watch it.
Cross-pollination of media is a great way for people to explore things they would never see otherwise.
Of course what will really kill current fans is when the new fans claim the live action series is better.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:16 PM on August 23, 2021
The Attack On Titan manga has been adapted as both an anime TV series and a Japanese movie, and I have no doubt that I’m cherry picking one example from a crowded field that a true Japanophile would know better.
Please do not speak of the Attack on Titan movie. Or the Fullmetal Alchemist one for that matter.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:13 PM on August 23, 2021
Please do not speak of the Attack on Titan movie. Or the Fullmetal Alchemist one for that matter.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:13 PM on August 23, 2021
Exactly how does a corgi phone it in?
It has to use a touch-tone phone so it can boop each number.
Um, like this perhaps ?
Extension cord aside, that would have to be a corgi with deep pockets.
posted by y2karl at 2:42 PM on August 23, 2021
It has to use a touch-tone phone so it can boop each number.
Um, like this perhaps ?
Extension cord aside, that would have to be a corgi with deep pockets.
posted by y2karl at 2:42 PM on August 23, 2021
Since John Cho is apparently the only character who also has an actor's name, does this mean the other two characters are the real deal?!?
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:55 PM on August 23, 2021
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:55 PM on August 23, 2021
I don’t know how this could possibly be any good but I’ll watch at least one episode out of morbid curiosity.
Think he needs to work on the signature "smug smile" but could chalk that up to photographer here pushing for "serious badass" face.
I always read that smile as having depth beyond smug confidence. There’s a kind of slacker serenity there, the zen of not giving a fuck and living in a state of eternal improvisation.
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:18 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Think he needs to work on the signature "smug smile" but could chalk that up to photographer here pushing for "serious badass" face.
I always read that smile as having depth beyond smug confidence. There’s a kind of slacker serenity there, the zen of not giving a fuck and living in a state of eternal improvisation.
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:18 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
So much hate for Faye's original costume! I don't even want to know what Metafilter thinks of Fujiko. I like her costume, but I don't have a problem with changing it--I've watched enough live-action anime films to know that what works in animation doesn't necessarily translate well to actual humans.
Quality-wise, my expectations are set somewhere between Death Note: Light Up the New World and Netflix Death Note. It's not possible to be worse than Netflix Death Note, is it?
posted by betweenthebars at 3:48 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
Quality-wise, my expectations are set somewhere between Death Note: Light Up the New World and Netflix Death Note. It's not possible to be worse than Netflix Death Note, is it?
posted by betweenthebars at 3:48 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
I hope they explore new stories instead of just doing a straight-up remake of the original anime. Otherwise, I think it'll just feel flat and weird, like that US-version of The IT Crowd, with Richard Ayoade reprising his role as Moss, but with Joel McHale as Roy, and it was just a shot-for-shot, word-for-word remake of the UK pilot, and everything just felt off.
posted by xedrik at 3:56 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by xedrik at 3:56 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
Or like the first episodes of 3s Company which were word for word remakes of the British "Man about the House" but with the main character renamed "Jack" instead of "Robin" making all the jokes about people assuming that Jack was female totally incomprehensible
posted by mbo at 4:14 PM on August 23, 2021
posted by mbo at 4:14 PM on August 23, 2021
I hope they explore new stories instead of just doing a straight-up remake of the original anime. Otherwise, I think it'll just feel flat and weird, like that US-version of The IT Crowd, with Richard Ayoade reprising his role as Moss, but with Joel McHale as Roy, and it was just a shot-for-shot, word-for-word remake of the UK pilot, and everything just felt off.
More American Office to British Office would indeed be ideal.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:38 PM on August 23, 2021
More American Office to British Office would indeed be ideal.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:38 PM on August 23, 2021
So much hate for Faye's original costume! I don't even want to know what Metafilter thinks of Fujiko.
I like costumes that would make sense for the character to choose. It makes sense for a woman to wear Faye's costume if she was going clubbing. It does not make sense for daily or active wear, because it is uncomfortable to have your boobs all over the place while you're running around and a human can stand a permanent wedgie for only so long. Not to mention that women wear underwear for a reason and Faye's original shorts do not work for that. It is 110% clear when you look at Faye that she was drawn to be looked at by men, not with the idea of making her a fully realized person.
When you are looking at how a female character is drawn and dressed, consider: is this for her? Or is this for the viewer?
posted by Anonymous at 4:50 PM on August 23, 2021
I like costumes that would make sense for the character to choose. It makes sense for a woman to wear Faye's costume if she was going clubbing. It does not make sense for daily or active wear, because it is uncomfortable to have your boobs all over the place while you're running around and a human can stand a permanent wedgie for only so long. Not to mention that women wear underwear for a reason and Faye's original shorts do not work for that. It is 110% clear when you look at Faye that she was drawn to be looked at by men, not with the idea of making her a fully realized person.
When you are looking at how a female character is drawn and dressed, consider: is this for her? Or is this for the viewer?
posted by Anonymous at 4:50 PM on August 23, 2021
So much hate for Faye's original costume!
I like to compare the hate to the belief that the original is immaculate and should never be redone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:10 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
I like to compare the hate to the belief that the original is immaculate and should never be redone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:10 PM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Honestly, this is the main concern I have going in: these people are supposed to be losers, and Netflix is showing almost none of that context in these photos."
I can pretty much guarantee that in the history of promotional photos, no movie or TV company has said to the photography team they've hired "make sure you make these people look like losers."
These photos aren't for you, or other fans, and they're also not stills from scenes in the show. They're for Netflix to send to Entertainment Weekly and Variety to get some publicity. Criticize the actual show all you want (AFTER you've seen it), but making any kind of judgment about a show based on the promotional photos is pointless.
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:11 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can pretty much guarantee that in the history of promotional photos, no movie or TV company has said to the photography team they've hired "make sure you make these people look like losers."
These photos aren't for you, or other fans, and they're also not stills from scenes in the show. They're for Netflix to send to Entertainment Weekly and Variety to get some publicity. Criticize the actual show all you want (AFTER you've seen it), but making any kind of judgment about a show based on the promotional photos is pointless.
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:11 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
When you are looking at how a female character is drawn and dressed, consider: is this for her? Or is this for the viewer?
Sure, but what does that tell us? High heels were clearly designed by a sadist with a giraffe fetish, but women wear them anyway. Costumes designed for the male gaze are donned just as often in real life as they are in fiction.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:14 PM on August 23, 2021
Sure, but what does that tell us? High heels were clearly designed by a sadist with a giraffe fetish, but women wear them anyway. Costumes designed for the male gaze are donned just as often in real life as they are in fiction.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:14 PM on August 23, 2021
Please do show me the female bank robbers or fighters or any active woman who is good at her job who dresses like Faye while she is performing her job.
posted by Anonymous at 5:33 PM on August 23, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 5:33 PM on August 23, 2021
There is "I dress sexy" and there is "I dress sexy even though while running from the cops I may pop open my shirt and trip over my heels and accidentally shoot myself while scrambling to not smash my face on the pavement." Look at the sexiest sexpot women you know, they are still dressing in ways that make SENSE.
I cannot believe it is 2021 and this conversation still needs to happen.
posted by Anonymous at 5:37 PM on August 23, 2021
I cannot believe it is 2021 and this conversation still needs to happen.
posted by Anonymous at 5:37 PM on August 23, 2021
Costumes designed for the male gaze are donned just as often in real life as they are in fiction.
I've re-read this sentence a few times while I try to figure out how to respond to it, because it's hard to describe what is wrong with something that is so normalized you (not generic "you") are blind to it.
But I'll take a stab at it: There's a difference between designing a character that dresses for the male gaze because it's an actual character choice and designing a character with the male gaze. It's often both, but you can do one without the other. It is tiresome when men try to justify objectifying character decisions by confusing these two things.
How do you tell if a character is designed with the male gaze? You can't always, but for Faye it's pretty damn obvious. One way is clothing choices that are just unrealistic or depicted unrealistically--both true for Faye. The clothes are too impractical for her lifestyle; she's certainly the type of person to be proud of her looks and to use them to her advantage, but her clothing choices would take that to the point of idiocy if we actually looked at them critically. And how the clothes are drawn makes them more revealing than necessary or even realistic; she has vacuum-packed boobs and a permanent wedgie and her shorts should be permanently falling down, and clothes just don't work like that.
We can also talk about how her clothes fit in with the rest of the design of the world--how, for example, Faye's outfit stands out as extreme, compared to Spike or Jet's or Ein's. (Or other women in the show we're not supposed to be horny for.) Most of the fashion in the show is actually not that out there, it's normal clothes with maybe a little retro-future or sci-fi western flair.
We can also talk about how the camera frames her.
You cannot just say "sometimes women dress for the male gaze" as your "get out of accusations of the male gaze free" card.
(And I'd really like to problematize the idea of women dressing for the male gaze, too, but this comment is long enough.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:19 PM on August 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
I've re-read this sentence a few times while I try to figure out how to respond to it, because it's hard to describe what is wrong with something that is so normalized you (not generic "you") are blind to it.
But I'll take a stab at it: There's a difference between designing a character that dresses for the male gaze because it's an actual character choice and designing a character with the male gaze. It's often both, but you can do one without the other. It is tiresome when men try to justify objectifying character decisions by confusing these two things.
How do you tell if a character is designed with the male gaze? You can't always, but for Faye it's pretty damn obvious. One way is clothing choices that are just unrealistic or depicted unrealistically--both true for Faye. The clothes are too impractical for her lifestyle; she's certainly the type of person to be proud of her looks and to use them to her advantage, but her clothing choices would take that to the point of idiocy if we actually looked at them critically. And how the clothes are drawn makes them more revealing than necessary or even realistic; she has vacuum-packed boobs and a permanent wedgie and her shorts should be permanently falling down, and clothes just don't work like that.
We can also talk about how her clothes fit in with the rest of the design of the world--how, for example, Faye's outfit stands out as extreme, compared to Spike or Jet's or Ein's. (Or other women in the show we're not supposed to be horny for.) Most of the fashion in the show is actually not that out there, it's normal clothes with maybe a little retro-future or sci-fi western flair.
We can also talk about how the camera frames her.
You cannot just say "sometimes women dress for the male gaze" as your "get out of accusations of the male gaze free" card.
(And I'd really like to problematize the idea of women dressing for the male gaze, too, but this comment is long enough.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:19 PM on August 23, 2021 [13 favorites]
Just popping in to the thread at this late stage to mock the idea that the show will be successful only if it caters to American gun fetishists.
That the lack of a deep knowledge of death-stick branding is a sign of poor character development is almost parodically American.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:22 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
That the lack of a deep knowledge of death-stick branding is a sign of poor character development is almost parodically American.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:22 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Interesting. I didn't know the characters in the anime were designed and drawn by Americans.
posted by glonous keming at 6:30 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 6:30 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not to abuse the edit window,
> the idea that the show will be successful only if it caters to American gun fetishists.
literally no one said that.
posted by glonous keming at 6:33 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
> the idea that the show will be successful only if it caters to American gun fetishists.
literally no one said that.
posted by glonous keming at 6:33 PM on August 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
[various comments pointing out that my comment on Faye’s costume was over-simplistic]
Fair enough.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:34 PM on August 23, 2021
Fair enough.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:34 PM on August 23, 2021
That the lack of a deep knowledge of death-stick branding is a sign of poor character development is almost parodically American.
I know shit-all about guns and would never have noticed the difference but--if a certain make and model is very accurately depicted and tightly associated with a character then it's part of the costume, right? Like Spike having a blue suit or Jet having a metal arm. If a character was associated with driving a Pontiac Firebird the entire series then you wouldn't put them in a Jeep. It would look sloppy.
posted by Anonymous at 6:51 PM on August 23, 2021
I know shit-all about guns and would never have noticed the difference but--if a certain make and model is very accurately depicted and tightly associated with a character then it's part of the costume, right? Like Spike having a blue suit or Jet having a metal arm. If a character was associated with driving a Pontiac Firebird the entire series then you wouldn't put them in a Jeep. It would look sloppy.
posted by Anonymous at 6:51 PM on August 23, 2021
In some neon Genesis remake, I - as a nondriving person who really completely fails to notice car types - miiiight notice if Katsuragi drive a Jeep instead of a sports car. But I wouldn't really care.
Similarly, as a non gun person, I had no idea that Faye had some particular gun, and thus would definitely not notice if it changes in a remake.
posted by kaibutsu at 7:23 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Similarly, as a non gun person, I had no idea that Faye had some particular gun, and thus would definitely not notice if it changes in a remake.
posted by kaibutsu at 7:23 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
Speaking of suits, I hope Jet gets to wear his, because that man knows how to accessorize.
posted by MrBadExample at 8:01 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by MrBadExample at 8:01 PM on August 23, 2021 [2 favorites]
I like Faye's new costume just because it feels more realistic for a working bounty hunter the 95% of the time she's not being a honeytrap.
I am feeling 100% cranky about that shot of Spike on the couch in the Bebop's common area, just because that #5 door/airlock what-have-you feels off. It needs, like, a different color, different geometry, a few tell-tale indicators, and hand-grips for when the gravity cuts out. Spouse: "Dr. Who sets from the 1980s looked better than that."
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:47 PM on August 23, 2021
I am feeling 100% cranky about that shot of Spike on the couch in the Bebop's common area, just because that #5 door/airlock what-have-you feels off. It needs, like, a different color, different geometry, a few tell-tale indicators, and hand-grips for when the gravity cuts out. Spouse: "Dr. Who sets from the 1980s looked better than that."
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:47 PM on August 23, 2021
Not that I'm 100% convinced that the original anime's couch and armchair actually needed service-panels, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:50 PM on August 23, 2021
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:50 PM on August 23, 2021
Remember when every one complained how replacing Major Kusanagi's lingerie with actual clothes ruined the live action GITS? Me either.
posted by pwnguin at 10:57 PM on August 23, 2021
posted by pwnguin at 10:57 PM on August 23, 2021
I like the living room on the ship and wonder what the book is on the table. Is Jet Black reading Penguin paperbacks he picked up last time visiting the ruins of Earth?
posted by johngoren at 2:20 AM on August 24, 2021
posted by johngoren at 2:20 AM on August 24, 2021
Eh, it's not like animation is some kind of pure reserve either. Why do it? Because the companies involved think they'll make money. There are certainly enough anime that have been made into live-action (in Japan) and vice versa that it's not even particularly surprising. Western studios don't have a great track record in this area, but maybe this will be the one that surprises.
After looking over the lists of movies that have been made from animated works, the track record isn't particularly good anywhere. I mean, yes, it's undoubtedly about the money, but there really isn't much success with the transition in Japan, the US, or elsewhere in terms of artistry or meaningful audience satisfaction. Comics or manga to shows and films have had success both in animation and live action, but animation to live action is much more limited. I guess the Transformers franchise is the biggest "success", but few really stand up for those movies as being all that satisfying, the same for the GI Joe series, and other shorter lived works with some financial success like Scooby Doo or the Lion King in the US. Speed Racer and Popeye received some mixed acclaim for the artistry, but there isn't a lot else that makes the grade.
In Japan there are a lot of works that are aimed at really narrow audiences like the 10 live action Kekko Kamen movies, half dozen Eko Eko Azarek and the like, where the transition to live action is mostly about B-grade titillation and a violence. A lot of the more modestly successful transitions appear to be in the young romance category, works that don't require much in the way of effects necessarily, but even there the reception appears to be mixed to narrowly focused most of the time and those films don't see much international attention and mostly appear to be made for the title and character/story recognition. Some of the more successful transitions somewhat akin to Bebop appear to be Assassination Classroom, Gantz, and the Japanese live action Death Note, with others like Nana, Rorouni Kenshin and Space Battleship Yamato also getting decent reviews and turning some profit.
There is also the occasional French language foray into this kind of work with things like A Distant Neighborhood. Korea and Hong Kong have also made movies of this sort to some mild success but there is little I can find that suggests a history of making live action versions of animated works is very successful, I suspect because it is a tricky line to walk. The live action works will be difficult to stylize in the ways animation works, making the physics and settings of the worlds and character movements feel less vibrant than in some animation. If the live action film tries to duplicate the animated world too closely it will feel, at best, a lesser version of the same, but if it varies too widely, then it will run into the issue of losing its connection to the original, which leaves open why it was made in the first place other than cashing in on the name. None of that is to say Cowboy Bebop can't be good or successful, just that there really isn't that much to suggest its especially likely with the difficulties in translating the style and tone being the most obvious difficulty.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:21 AM on August 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
After looking over the lists of movies that have been made from animated works, the track record isn't particularly good anywhere. I mean, yes, it's undoubtedly about the money, but there really isn't much success with the transition in Japan, the US, or elsewhere in terms of artistry or meaningful audience satisfaction. Comics or manga to shows and films have had success both in animation and live action, but animation to live action is much more limited. I guess the Transformers franchise is the biggest "success", but few really stand up for those movies as being all that satisfying, the same for the GI Joe series, and other shorter lived works with some financial success like Scooby Doo or the Lion King in the US. Speed Racer and Popeye received some mixed acclaim for the artistry, but there isn't a lot else that makes the grade.
In Japan there are a lot of works that are aimed at really narrow audiences like the 10 live action Kekko Kamen movies, half dozen Eko Eko Azarek and the like, where the transition to live action is mostly about B-grade titillation and a violence. A lot of the more modestly successful transitions appear to be in the young romance category, works that don't require much in the way of effects necessarily, but even there the reception appears to be mixed to narrowly focused most of the time and those films don't see much international attention and mostly appear to be made for the title and character/story recognition. Some of the more successful transitions somewhat akin to Bebop appear to be Assassination Classroom, Gantz, and the Japanese live action Death Note, with others like Nana, Rorouni Kenshin and Space Battleship Yamato also getting decent reviews and turning some profit.
There is also the occasional French language foray into this kind of work with things like A Distant Neighborhood. Korea and Hong Kong have also made movies of this sort to some mild success but there is little I can find that suggests a history of making live action versions of animated works is very successful, I suspect because it is a tricky line to walk. The live action works will be difficult to stylize in the ways animation works, making the physics and settings of the worlds and character movements feel less vibrant than in some animation. If the live action film tries to duplicate the animated world too closely it will feel, at best, a lesser version of the same, but if it varies too widely, then it will run into the issue of losing its connection to the original, which leaves open why it was made in the first place other than cashing in on the name. None of that is to say Cowboy Bebop can't be good or successful, just that there really isn't that much to suggest its especially likely with the difficulties in translating the style and tone being the most obvious difficulty.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:21 AM on August 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Maybe if they do something weird, like really leaning into multiple frames, ala The Thomas Crowne Affair….
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:24 AM on August 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:24 AM on August 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
Looking at the showrunners, the good news is that Pinkner worked on Fringe and High Fidelity as an exec producer, wrote Venom and some episodes of Alias, all with some reasonable utility for a Bebop background, Nemec shares some of those credits and also worked on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies, which at least provides some background of translating animation to live action and also wrote Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol, and Christopher Yost has worked a lot on Marvel properties, superheroes animated and live action and Star Wars, having written Thor: Raganarok and for the Mandalorian and Rebels, for example, but also Thor: Dark World, so don't get too excited, heh, and is also working on translating He-Man to live action with Masters of the Universe, so these are guys who clearly are invested in finding the right mix to make the transition work.
Their body of work has enough humor in it to feel like they won't miss out on that aspect and enough weird and offbeat work to capture some of that, but maybe a bit darker and more "actiony" than the anime, which might not be a bad thing if the budget is suitable for giving an audience some feeling of replacement for the elements that won't translate as well due to differences in conventions between anime and live action. They are at least saying they are relying a lot on the studio and director, Shinichiro Watanabe, of the original, so along with Kanno being on board are signaling a strong interest in getting the feel right. So there is reason to hope for success here. It'll probably just require finding a good analog for the elements of style that don't translate well in making the show more grounded in reality.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:09 PM on August 24, 2021
Their body of work has enough humor in it to feel like they won't miss out on that aspect and enough weird and offbeat work to capture some of that, but maybe a bit darker and more "actiony" than the anime, which might not be a bad thing if the budget is suitable for giving an audience some feeling of replacement for the elements that won't translate as well due to differences in conventions between anime and live action. They are at least saying they are relying a lot on the studio and director, Shinichiro Watanabe, of the original, so along with Kanno being on board are signaling a strong interest in getting the feel right. So there is reason to hope for success here. It'll probably just require finding a good analog for the elements of style that don't translate well in making the show more grounded in reality.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:09 PM on August 24, 2021
It should go without saying perhaps, but is obviously of some importance that the showrunners are all white dudes, so that's an unavoidable limitation here that can't be ignored, but if you are looking for optimism despite that, then the history of the guys has some evidence of potential success.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:37 PM on August 24, 2021
posted by gusottertrout at 11:37 PM on August 24, 2021
I think I would've been excited about this when I was 18. I remembered how jazzed I was around then when the Cowboy Bebop animated movie came out. I really wanted more Cowboy Bebop. (Somewhat ironically, Watanabe designed the ending of the original series specifically so he wouldn't get dragged into making more Cowboy Bebop. He wanted it to be over and done. Because of this, the movie couldn't really be what I wanted it to be and I was always a bit disappointed by it. Ultimately, I think, the movie deals with the ending of the series by mirroring it in the arc of its main antagonist. Vincent is someone who is knowingly going to his death on a path determined by his tragic past. They are both "watching a dream they can't wake up from." Spike tries to stop him but he understands him.)
But from a more mature perspective I think it's almost impossible this production or anything like it could live up to the TV anime.
It's a little bit like old vs. new Star Wars (esp. the first movie). The original Star Wars has flaws but it's a landmark of its medium, especially in terms of visual invention. The new movies are (depending on who you ask) either garbage or, at best, pretty good action entertainment. Nobody can argue that they stand in the same rank as the original.
Cowboy Bebop is kinda trashy and derivative but that's not important. It's an incredible achievement of style. There have been at least a few other TV shows with the same premise as Bebop. In the States of course we had Firefly. There was a contemporaneous anime called Outlaw Star with a similar setup. The basic idea was in the air when Bebop came out. Its plots are mostly not very memorable. What made it work was all in the execution, the style. The animation is so dynamic, the backgrounds are so filled with syncretic detail, and the music is both completely wonderful and wonderfully directed.
Is there a creative team in the United States that has achieved something comparable? I can't think of anything like it. Maybe the Wachowski sisters with The Matrix. I guess there's been a bit of a revival of action-adventure TV, but (sorry) none of it seems all that good.
I just can't imagine this will be anything but a pale imitation of the original. It might be a watchable pale imitation. I will probably check it out. (I have checked out the majority of media Yoko Kanno has worked on, maybe even if you include TV commercials.) But I just can't imagine it being in the same league as the original.
posted by grobstein at 12:18 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
But from a more mature perspective I think it's almost impossible this production or anything like it could live up to the TV anime.
It's a little bit like old vs. new Star Wars (esp. the first movie). The original Star Wars has flaws but it's a landmark of its medium, especially in terms of visual invention. The new movies are (depending on who you ask) either garbage or, at best, pretty good action entertainment. Nobody can argue that they stand in the same rank as the original.
Cowboy Bebop is kinda trashy and derivative but that's not important. It's an incredible achievement of style. There have been at least a few other TV shows with the same premise as Bebop. In the States of course we had Firefly. There was a contemporaneous anime called Outlaw Star with a similar setup. The basic idea was in the air when Bebop came out. Its plots are mostly not very memorable. What made it work was all in the execution, the style. The animation is so dynamic, the backgrounds are so filled with syncretic detail, and the music is both completely wonderful and wonderfully directed.
Is there a creative team in the United States that has achieved something comparable? I can't think of anything like it. Maybe the Wachowski sisters with The Matrix. I guess there's been a bit of a revival of action-adventure TV, but (sorry) none of it seems all that good.
I just can't imagine this will be anything but a pale imitation of the original. It might be a watchable pale imitation. I will probably check it out. (I have checked out the majority of media Yoko Kanno has worked on, maybe even if you include TV commercials.) But I just can't imagine it being in the same league as the original.
posted by grobstein at 12:18 PM on August 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
>I just can't imagine this will be anything but a pale imitation of the original. It might be a watchable pale imitation.
I agree, but I want to emphasize that "as good as Cowboy Bebop" is a super-high bar. There's plenty of room underneath it for a thing to still be pretty good, or even really good.
posted by rifflesby at 12:57 AM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I agree, but I want to emphasize that "as good as Cowboy Bebop" is a super-high bar. There's plenty of room underneath it for a thing to still be pretty good, or even really good.
posted by rifflesby at 12:57 AM on August 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I agree, but I want to emphasize that "as good as Cowboy Bebop" is a super-high bar. There's plenty of room underneath it for a thing to still be pretty good, or even really good.
Yeah I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, like, at the level of the kind of person I want to be, "guy who complains about disposable new production of beloved old media" is not it. I prefer to adopt a tolerant attitude towards the general fallen-ness of the world of mass entertainment. Like with the recent Star Wars, if it's bad I won't watch past the beginning and I'll devote my attention to stuff I think is good. Better for the soul. At the same time, I can't help but feel a bit of ... resentment maybe? ... if Disney or whoever decides to wrap themselves in the trappings of a real artistic achievement to trot out yet another disposable entertainment time-eater. It seems to dishonor the achievement. Still, like I said, for the most part I prefer to just ignore stuff I think is garbage and devote my time and energy to stuff I think is actually good.
All that said, I'm probably setting up too extreme a dichotomy here. If the choices are either "equal to the original" or "garbage" then of course garbage is more likely. But like you said there's a whole universe of degrees in between that many people will be sensitive to. If you're not as pessimistic as I am about the current crop of American action-adventure productions then it's probably totally reasonable to think this could be pretty good, or really good, and of course you don't have to hate something that's really good just because it's not as good as the thing it's named after.
posted by grobstein at 9:34 AM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, like, at the level of the kind of person I want to be, "guy who complains about disposable new production of beloved old media" is not it. I prefer to adopt a tolerant attitude towards the general fallen-ness of the world of mass entertainment. Like with the recent Star Wars, if it's bad I won't watch past the beginning and I'll devote my attention to stuff I think is good. Better for the soul. At the same time, I can't help but feel a bit of ... resentment maybe? ... if Disney or whoever decides to wrap themselves in the trappings of a real artistic achievement to trot out yet another disposable entertainment time-eater. It seems to dishonor the achievement. Still, like I said, for the most part I prefer to just ignore stuff I think is garbage and devote my time and energy to stuff I think is actually good.
All that said, I'm probably setting up too extreme a dichotomy here. If the choices are either "equal to the original" or "garbage" then of course garbage is more likely. But like you said there's a whole universe of degrees in between that many people will be sensitive to. If you're not as pessimistic as I am about the current crop of American action-adventure productions then it's probably totally reasonable to think this could be pretty good, or really good, and of course you don't have to hate something that's really good just because it's not as good as the thing it's named after.
posted by grobstein at 9:34 AM on August 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yeah I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, like, at the level of the kind of person I want to be, "guy who complains about disposable new production of beloved old media" is not it. I prefer to adopt a tolerant attitude towards the general fallen-ness of the world of mass entertainment.
My watershed moment for this was when they remade The Prisoner. "Oh no!" I thought, "It's not going to be good, and now when people hear about The Prisoner they're going to think it's a bad thing."
It came, it bombed, it went, it left zero cultural footprint. The kind of people who are going to find the original still find it. I don't think I've gotten as worked up about one of these things since.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:03 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
My watershed moment for this was when they remade The Prisoner. "Oh no!" I thought, "It's not going to be good, and now when people hear about The Prisoner they're going to think it's a bad thing."
It came, it bombed, it went, it left zero cultural footprint. The kind of people who are going to find the original still find it. I don't think I've gotten as worked up about one of these things since.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:03 PM on August 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
« Older What is life? | welcome to X E N O N Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by glonous keming at 7:20 AM on August 23, 2021 [3 favorites]