How To Not Suck At Writing
September 28, 2021 6:33 PM Subscribe
In a follow-up to his previous piece on writing, Defector columnist Drew Magary discusses his techniques for improving at being a wordsmith.
In the piece, Drew talks about the value of planning out how long a piece should be (and of how these should be guidelines), using critical assessment of the work of others to improve your own, and the importance of finishing your work.
In the piece, Drew talks about the value of planning out how long a piece should be (and of how these should be guidelines), using critical assessment of the work of others to improve your own, and the importance of finishing your work.
Hey, it's about how not to suck at writing and...
oh,wait.
posted by y2karl at 7:14 PM on September 28, 2021
oh,wait.
posted by y2karl at 7:14 PM on September 28, 2021
Who is this advice for?
Who "sucks" at writing and finds improvement by advice like, read a bunch and get feedback from others?
posted by meese at 7:18 PM on September 28, 2021
Who "sucks" at writing and finds improvement by advice like, read a bunch and get feedback from others?
posted by meese at 7:18 PM on September 28, 2021
It's basically what Ira Glass said, which I can't compress further, so...
Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, and I really wish somebody had told this to me.posted by sjswitzer at 7:33 PM on September 28, 2021 [59 favorites]
All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But it's like there is this gap. For the first couple years that you're making stuff, what you're making isn't so good. It’s not that great. It’s trying to be good, it has ambition to be good, but it’s not that good.
But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is good enough that you can tell that what you're making is kind of a disappointment to you. A lot of people never get past that phase. They quit.
Everybody I know who does interesting, creative work they went through years where they had really good taste and they could tell that what they were making wasn't as good as they wanted it to be. They knew it fell short. Everybody goes through that.
And if you are just starting out or if you are still in this phase, you gotta know its normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Do a huge volume of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week or every month you know you're going to finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you're going to catch up and close that gap. And the work you're making will be as good as your ambitions.
I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It takes awhile. It’s gonna take you a while. It’s normal to take a while. You just have to fight your way through that.
Rule number one: don't use the word "wordsmith."
Ouch! The OP seems to have used that word to describe an article that does not use that word. Maybe Rule number one should be RTFA and don't be a jerk.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:39 PM on September 28, 2021 [38 favorites]
Ouch! The OP seems to have used that word to describe an article that does not use that word. Maybe Rule number one should be RTFA and don't be a jerk.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:39 PM on September 28, 2021 [38 favorites]
If your writing project has a "word count", then god bless you and good luck.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:08 PM on September 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:08 PM on September 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
You just chip away everything that doesn't look like writing!
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:24 PM on September 28, 2021 [30 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:24 PM on September 28, 2021 [30 favorites]
“You just sit at your typewriter until little drops of blood appear on your forehead.”
posted by billm at 8:40 PM on September 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by billm at 8:40 PM on September 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you're writing for routine publication (in the old days: newspapers, magazines), you KNOW how long you're aiming for. That's how many column-inches you're going to get. If it's longer, it's going to be deleted. If it's too short, it may be rejected, or the production team may run a particularly dumb-ass ad at the bottom of your column to use up the extra space AND ALSO to remind you that you suck for coming in short. I can FEEL when I'm at 750 words, which is a top-to-bottom column in an 11x17 tabloid with four columns. I am 100% nodding along with his word-count paragraph.
Writing for word-count for publication is a really important skill! If you've ever had to write or (God forbid) grade 5-page essays by students, you WISH those kids knew how to write for word-count. (1,250 words to hit 5 pages in Times New Roman double-spaced.) Otherwise you get student papers where they've gone back through and added a lot of unnecessary adjectives and adverbs to get up to the 5 pages. People who know how to write for word count or column inches get to a point where they intuitively FEEL how to structure a 1200-word story, or a 750-word column, or a 2500-word feature. (They also know that you go back through and look for the paragraph that ALMOST ends at the end of a line, and then add an extra adverb to THAT ONE, because you get a whole extra line out of adding one word.) (And if that doesn't work, you slightly cheat the kerning.)
Regarding his thoughts on finishing sub-par work to get to better work -- I can't emphasize enough how much writing for a daily newspaper makes you a better writer. Because you're going to turn in shitty, boring, 500-word stories on local town council meetings on deadline and sometimes they're going to suck HARD. And you know what happens to that shitty, boring, 500-word story that you'd be embarrassed to show your high school English teacher? IT VANISHES BENEATH THE SURFACE OF THE POND IN 24 HOURS. You write it, people read it, and 24 hours later it's replaced by a new story. (And in print, not that many people go digging back through bound books or microfiche for your shitty-ass 500-word story about town council ... the internet makes that a lot more plausible and your crap writing lives a lot longer, which kinda sucks.) You massively fucked up your story on the town council and a supermajority of members have called the paper to complain? OH WELL, 24 hours later there's a new story, everyone's recycled that day's paper, and next week you're back at THE SAME MEETING, learning from failure and doing better.
The other thing that writing for a newspaper (or magazine) beats right the fuck out of you is any preciousness about your work. You are there to do a JOB. You are there to communicate information or an idea, in words. And you get 750 words to do it. Or 500 words. Or 2000 words. Or, we said you got 1500 words but a big story broke, the newshole shrank precipitously, and we're chopping it to 800. Or, we said you get 750 words, but you turned in a steaming turd, so the editors are going to chop it down to a 250-word bulletin. The feedback you get from readers is very immediate. You learn what lands and what doesn't; what enlightens and what confuses.
The feedback from the newsroom is even more immediate. It's one of the tiny handful of places in the world where you can sit in a room with 30 other writers and editors who are writing and editing "out loud." I mean, mostly not literally out loud, unless they want to get banished to the business office. But you're there as people say out loud, "I need to say X without saying X" or "I know what I want the lede to be but I can't hit on the right wording" or "what's the word for when you do Y, but you hate it?" and other people answer, and two writers and an editor start workshopping that lede to improve it. You're there as an editor talks through restructuring a story with the writer, or punching up an ending, or whether a particular phrase is confusing. You work closely with editors who get to know your voice, your style, your strengths and faults, and who (in the best cases!) help you polish your work to sound like the best version of your writing, help you draw out the distinctive parts of your voice, and help you be alert to your flaws. You learn to write in voices that aren't your own (when editing a story, or when writing to spec on a particular topic), and to edit voices that aren't your own, in a respectful way that highlights your colleague's strengths and doesn't try to squish their voice into your voice. You learn to read your own work with other people's eyes. You learn the difference between good editorial feedback and bullshit editorial feedback, helped along by the reader response the next morning.
I don't think it's the only way to learn to write. But I also don't think there's a more comprehensive apprenticeship in writing available, and I'm sad that daily newspapers are dying and newsrooms are more virtual, because it's a big loss for young writers. Also everyone should learn to write for word count, it's a really important skill! And everyone should learn to crank out crappy-but-competent words on something really, really boring. Because sometimes the only way to get where you need to go is by writing something crappy-but-competent, and it helps a lot if you're used to those stories sinking noiselessly into the pond. Writing a first draft is a lot easier when you're willing to say, "Well, it sucks, but it gets the idea across."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:58 PM on September 28, 2021 [59 favorites]
Writing for word-count for publication is a really important skill! If you've ever had to write or (God forbid) grade 5-page essays by students, you WISH those kids knew how to write for word-count. (1,250 words to hit 5 pages in Times New Roman double-spaced.) Otherwise you get student papers where they've gone back through and added a lot of unnecessary adjectives and adverbs to get up to the 5 pages. People who know how to write for word count or column inches get to a point where they intuitively FEEL how to structure a 1200-word story, or a 750-word column, or a 2500-word feature. (They also know that you go back through and look for the paragraph that ALMOST ends at the end of a line, and then add an extra adverb to THAT ONE, because you get a whole extra line out of adding one word.) (And if that doesn't work, you slightly cheat the kerning.)
Regarding his thoughts on finishing sub-par work to get to better work -- I can't emphasize enough how much writing for a daily newspaper makes you a better writer. Because you're going to turn in shitty, boring, 500-word stories on local town council meetings on deadline and sometimes they're going to suck HARD. And you know what happens to that shitty, boring, 500-word story that you'd be embarrassed to show your high school English teacher? IT VANISHES BENEATH THE SURFACE OF THE POND IN 24 HOURS. You write it, people read it, and 24 hours later it's replaced by a new story. (And in print, not that many people go digging back through bound books or microfiche for your shitty-ass 500-word story about town council ... the internet makes that a lot more plausible and your crap writing lives a lot longer, which kinda sucks.) You massively fucked up your story on the town council and a supermajority of members have called the paper to complain? OH WELL, 24 hours later there's a new story, everyone's recycled that day's paper, and next week you're back at THE SAME MEETING, learning from failure and doing better.
The other thing that writing for a newspaper (or magazine) beats right the fuck out of you is any preciousness about your work. You are there to do a JOB. You are there to communicate information or an idea, in words. And you get 750 words to do it. Or 500 words. Or 2000 words. Or, we said you got 1500 words but a big story broke, the newshole shrank precipitously, and we're chopping it to 800. Or, we said you get 750 words, but you turned in a steaming turd, so the editors are going to chop it down to a 250-word bulletin. The feedback you get from readers is very immediate. You learn what lands and what doesn't; what enlightens and what confuses.
The feedback from the newsroom is even more immediate. It's one of the tiny handful of places in the world where you can sit in a room with 30 other writers and editors who are writing and editing "out loud." I mean, mostly not literally out loud, unless they want to get banished to the business office. But you're there as people say out loud, "I need to say X without saying X" or "I know what I want the lede to be but I can't hit on the right wording" or "what's the word for when you do Y, but you hate it?" and other people answer, and two writers and an editor start workshopping that lede to improve it. You're there as an editor talks through restructuring a story with the writer, or punching up an ending, or whether a particular phrase is confusing. You work closely with editors who get to know your voice, your style, your strengths and faults, and who (in the best cases!) help you polish your work to sound like the best version of your writing, help you draw out the distinctive parts of your voice, and help you be alert to your flaws. You learn to write in voices that aren't your own (when editing a story, or when writing to spec on a particular topic), and to edit voices that aren't your own, in a respectful way that highlights your colleague's strengths and doesn't try to squish their voice into your voice. You learn to read your own work with other people's eyes. You learn the difference between good editorial feedback and bullshit editorial feedback, helped along by the reader response the next morning.
I don't think it's the only way to learn to write. But I also don't think there's a more comprehensive apprenticeship in writing available, and I'm sad that daily newspapers are dying and newsrooms are more virtual, because it's a big loss for young writers. Also everyone should learn to write for word count, it's a really important skill! And everyone should learn to crank out crappy-but-competent words on something really, really boring. Because sometimes the only way to get where you need to go is by writing something crappy-but-competent, and it helps a lot if you're used to those stories sinking noiselessly into the pond. Writing a first draft is a lot easier when you're willing to say, "Well, it sucks, but it gets the idea across."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:58 PM on September 28, 2021 [59 favorites]
I gauge my writing progress not on how many favorites I get on throwaway jokes, but on how few favorites I get on my comments that I think are the most inventive and hilarious. It's surprisingly consistent! I thrive in a rarefied atmosphere...that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:08 PM on September 28, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:08 PM on September 28, 2021 [10 favorites]
All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste.
As someone who's spent the past 35 years selling people "culture" (movies / music) I can tell you that EVERYONE thinks they have good taste. Everyone. Just as everyone thinks they're funny, amazing in bed, or are a good driver.
A few years ago I did an experiment at my store. Every record that I thought was shit and a "dollar record" I would put a price tag on with a question mark on it. (e.g. Kansas, America, Rough Trade, Starship...) When someone asked, "What does this mean? How much is this?" I would say, "Offer me a fair price and it's yours." With zero exceptions, those people offered considerably more than the record was worth. Records worth $3 or $4 would get offers of $15 to $20.
I promise you: everyone thinks they have great taste.
I killed the experiment after a few months because I grew tired of saying, "No, how about $5."
Also, your favorite band sucks.
posted by dobbs at 9:11 PM on September 28, 2021 [21 favorites]
As someone who's spent the past 35 years selling people "culture" (movies / music) I can tell you that EVERYONE thinks they have good taste. Everyone. Just as everyone thinks they're funny, amazing in bed, or are a good driver.
A few years ago I did an experiment at my store. Every record that I thought was shit and a "dollar record" I would put a price tag on with a question mark on it. (e.g. Kansas, America, Rough Trade, Starship...) When someone asked, "What does this mean? How much is this?" I would say, "Offer me a fair price and it's yours." With zero exceptions, those people offered considerably more than the record was worth. Records worth $3 or $4 would get offers of $15 to $20.
I promise you: everyone thinks they have great taste.
I killed the experiment after a few months because I grew tired of saying, "No, how about $5."
Also, your favorite band sucks.
posted by dobbs at 9:11 PM on September 28, 2021 [21 favorites]
Just as everyone thinks they're funny, amazing in bed, or are a good driver.
Suddenly I feel like an extreme outlier.
posted by storybored at 9:13 PM on September 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
Suddenly I feel like an extreme outlier.
posted by storybored at 9:13 PM on September 28, 2021 [12 favorites]
I'm funny in bed and I have good taste in driving.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:13 PM on September 28, 2021 [26 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:13 PM on September 28, 2021 [26 favorites]
I tried reading the article: it wouldn't let me in.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:28 PM on September 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:28 PM on September 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's ok, the contents of the title are in the post itself. (Sneetches. Btw, you win best spicy top post)
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:30 PM on September 28, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:30 PM on September 28, 2021
Eyebrows, I've observed that at least four writers whose prose I enjoy (Caitlan Moran, John Scalzi, Neil Gaiman, and my very favorite playwright, Tom Stoppard) put in years writing for newspapers. It's definitely persuaded me that writing to a deadline and a word count - for a substantial number of assignments - is an excellent way to hone your writing skills, even if you ultimately become a best-selling fiction writer (or dramatist).
Thanks for your excellent and detailed comment. (Just over 1000 words!)
posted by kristi at 9:33 PM on September 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
Thanks for your excellent and detailed comment. (Just over 1000 words!)
posted by kristi at 9:33 PM on September 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
Eyebrows, I’m with you on the word counts. As someone who’s been lucky enough to get paid to do some newspaper writing, and now some textbook writing, I can’t begin to explain how much better I am as a writer because of the strict limits and solid editors I’ve worked with. If nothing else (and you all almost never see this side of it), my writing is much more concise. I’ve learned a lot about recognizing what’s necessary, and what needs cutting.
Strutter Cane-United Planets Stilt Patrol and I were talking recently, and I off hand mentioned that I wondered just what my word count was up to here since I joined in 2008, and Strutter went and rattled the infodump until the number came out, and it turns out I’ve written just over 3.1 million words just on the blue. He even attached a helpful info graphic that pointed out that ASOIAF is only 1.7 million words in total. I was honestly (and still am) kind of stunned by that figure. On the other hand, I think it also goes to show one of the standard chestnuts about writing - that you just need to write, write, and write some more - has some truth behind it. I’ve definitely become a better writer through the years of commenting here. I’d like to think that my writing has become clearer, more direct, and focused because I’ve had this outlet for it.
Also, Jesus, 3.1 million words. That’s a lot of words.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:36 PM on September 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
Strutter Cane-United Planets Stilt Patrol and I were talking recently, and I off hand mentioned that I wondered just what my word count was up to here since I joined in 2008, and Strutter went and rattled the infodump until the number came out, and it turns out I’ve written just over 3.1 million words just on the blue. He even attached a helpful info graphic that pointed out that ASOIAF is only 1.7 million words in total. I was honestly (and still am) kind of stunned by that figure. On the other hand, I think it also goes to show one of the standard chestnuts about writing - that you just need to write, write, and write some more - has some truth behind it. I’ve definitely become a better writer through the years of commenting here. I’d like to think that my writing has become clearer, more direct, and focused because I’ve had this outlet for it.
Also, Jesus, 3.1 million words. That’s a lot of words.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:36 PM on September 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
Best approach: Write for a good editor who will make an effort to help you improve.
Second best approach: Get in the habit of looking over every sentence for words you can delete. You can always be more concise or elegant. Poetic, even.
posted by mikeand1 at 9:43 PM on September 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Second best approach: Get in the habit of looking over every sentence for words you can delete. You can always be more concise or elegant. Poetic, even.
posted by mikeand1 at 9:43 PM on September 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
"I can tell you that EVERYONE thinks they have good taste. Everyone. Just as everyone thinks they're funny, amazing in bed, or are a good driver."
I think this is really gendered? Not that many women I know go on and on about their great taste, or being hilarious, or great in bed, or a good driver. They just quietly get lower insurance premiums for ACTUALLY being a good driver (and silently passed over for stand-up showcases because men). I can think of entire movies that focus on men who think they have great taste (High Fidelity), but I can't think of one where a woman is convinced she is an arbiter of art.
I also can say that around 80% of women whose first news stories were ripped to pieces at my newspaper came back and tried again, but only maybe 30% of men did so. Men also cried a lot more often when their first stories were edited, because they were NOT used to being edited. Senior positions were pretty evenly distributed between men and women, but there were a LOT more men who came to shoot their shot, and were devastated when it wasn't great, and didn't want to learn. Women who worked up the courage to shoot their shot -- and you could tell most of them had to steel themselves to do it -- expected to be shot down. And when they were published, but harshly edited, they considered that an amazing outcome, and were eager to learn. A lot of men were just flatly furious that someone dared to edit them; a lot of men literally cried in the newsroom upon being told their work was being cut from 800 words to 500 words.
I worked with so many talented and amazing men, of a variety of temperaments, who all cared more about writing than they did about their egos. It honestly helped form my opinions about what I wanted in a partner, as I watched these guys be vulnerable and open and eager to learn from whoever would teach them (and also often fratty and smelly and way too interested in golf), because they wanted to be BETTER WRITERS more than they cared who insulted their egos. But I cannot overstate how many dudes came waltzing into the newsroom like, "I'm the next Jack Kerouac! Edit me at your peril, rubes!" and rage-quit or quit in tears three days later. I can remember literally one woman who acted that way; most new-hire women were like, "I love to write? And I'm pretty good? I think? Maybe?" Women were basically universally like, "I want this feedback and I want to adjust my work to these requirements, even if it is FLAYING MY SOUL and I am hiding my tears." Men who were new, otoh, needed a lot more handling if you didn't want them to either cry or scream at you, and you could typically tell within a single story whether they were hungry to learn and grow, or whether they were fucking furious you didn't recognize their genius. (Most were fucking furious, especially if the editor was a woman.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:44 PM on September 28, 2021 [26 favorites]
I think this is really gendered? Not that many women I know go on and on about their great taste, or being hilarious, or great in bed, or a good driver. They just quietly get lower insurance premiums for ACTUALLY being a good driver (and silently passed over for stand-up showcases because men). I can think of entire movies that focus on men who think they have great taste (High Fidelity), but I can't think of one where a woman is convinced she is an arbiter of art.
I also can say that around 80% of women whose first news stories were ripped to pieces at my newspaper came back and tried again, but only maybe 30% of men did so. Men also cried a lot more often when their first stories were edited, because they were NOT used to being edited. Senior positions were pretty evenly distributed between men and women, but there were a LOT more men who came to shoot their shot, and were devastated when it wasn't great, and didn't want to learn. Women who worked up the courage to shoot their shot -- and you could tell most of them had to steel themselves to do it -- expected to be shot down. And when they were published, but harshly edited, they considered that an amazing outcome, and were eager to learn. A lot of men were just flatly furious that someone dared to edit them; a lot of men literally cried in the newsroom upon being told their work was being cut from 800 words to 500 words.
I worked with so many talented and amazing men, of a variety of temperaments, who all cared more about writing than they did about their egos. It honestly helped form my opinions about what I wanted in a partner, as I watched these guys be vulnerable and open and eager to learn from whoever would teach them (and also often fratty and smelly and way too interested in golf), because they wanted to be BETTER WRITERS more than they cared who insulted their egos. But I cannot overstate how many dudes came waltzing into the newsroom like, "I'm the next Jack Kerouac! Edit me at your peril, rubes!" and rage-quit or quit in tears three days later. I can remember literally one woman who acted that way; most new-hire women were like, "I love to write? And I'm pretty good? I think? Maybe?" Women were basically universally like, "I want this feedback and I want to adjust my work to these requirements, even if it is FLAYING MY SOUL and I am hiding my tears." Men who were new, otoh, needed a lot more handling if you didn't want them to either cry or scream at you, and you could typically tell within a single story whether they were hungry to learn and grow, or whether they were fucking furious you didn't recognize their genius. (Most were fucking furious, especially if the editor was a woman.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:44 PM on September 28, 2021 [26 favorites]
I think Jack London would allow himself his first drink of alcohol for the day when he hit a 1500 word-count... and stop writing in mid-sentence to take a break when he got there. Probably not the only writer to do this.
posted by ovvl at 9:49 PM on September 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 9:49 PM on September 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Lots of dudes suffer from Hemmingway/Kerouac/Carver/Thompson delusions. I've had a few arguments with editors on columns before - but not because my words were precious, but because they eliminated the concept of the piece. I usually don't mind editing at all. (though I tend to get grumpy about diction edits because sometimes I really like what a word is doing there)
My primary writing partner and I have a great system for us - he doesn't mind a blank page, so he'll throw a bunch of stuff up to an outline I construct. He'll leave pieces where he needs my fill, but otherwise he drops a mass of words and then I come through and edit/re-write the majority of it to sound like us and to have a structural flow. (He appreciates it, because he "writes like a boring lawyer". I appreciate it because, for whatever reason, I find it easier to start with something mechanically done)
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:51 PM on September 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
My primary writing partner and I have a great system for us - he doesn't mind a blank page, so he'll throw a bunch of stuff up to an outline I construct. He'll leave pieces where he needs my fill, but otherwise he drops a mass of words and then I come through and edit/re-write the majority of it to sound like us and to have a structural flow. (He appreciates it, because he "writes like a boring lawyer". I appreciate it because, for whatever reason, I find it easier to start with something mechanically done)
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:51 PM on September 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
"I can tell you that EVERYONE thinks they have good taste. Everyone. Just as everyone thinks they're funny, amazing in bed, or are a good driver."
Mm.. I think many people are often trying to curate taste for themselves, rather than identifying with a static understanding of taste. (Or at least, people whose taste I often love are endlessly doing this)
posted by firstdaffodils at 10:03 PM on September 28, 2021
Mm.. I think many people are often trying to curate taste for themselves, rather than identifying with a static understanding of taste. (Or at least, people whose taste I often love are endlessly doing this)
posted by firstdaffodils at 10:03 PM on September 28, 2021
I’ve often tried writing with a strict word count but
posted by romanb at 10:16 PM on September 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by romanb at 10:16 PM on September 28, 2021 [5 favorites]
From an International Paper promotion ca. 1980, via BoingBoing ca 2012, here is Kurt Vonnegut's essay "How to write with style" (PDF, page 15 and 16 in document). Search for the title and you can find image files of just his article. I tore out a copy from a magazine when it was originally published. It has helped me immensely through the years.
posted by zaixfeep at 10:46 PM on September 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 10:46 PM on September 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
You just chip away everything that doesn't look like writing!
Oh, word counts downwards are amazing! But "hmm, this is fine but it's isn't 1,500 words yet" gives me the jeebies, preceded by the heebies.
posted by turbid dahlia at 11:35 PM on September 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
Oh, word counts downwards are amazing! But "hmm, this is fine but it's isn't 1,500 words yet" gives me the jeebies, preceded by the heebies.
posted by turbid dahlia at 11:35 PM on September 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
…and it turns out I’ve written just over 3.1 million words just on the blue.Good news, in my haste, I neglected to note that the length value for posts and comments in the infodump isn't word count, but raw character count, so you're certainly well short of A Song of Ice and Fire in length, let alone The Wheel of Time. (I do wish I'd gone and checked this before I calculated what turned out to be your total character count on all sub-sites that the infodump covers rather than just the blue, but for the record, that total is 4,917,963).
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 1:37 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
but raw character count
...well, I guess I feel sort of sheepish now.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:09 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
...well, I guess I feel sort of sheepish now.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:09 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's basically what Ira Glass said, which I can't compress further, so...
Jad Abumrad: Embrace the "Gut Churn" of the Creative Process
posted by kliuless at 3:21 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Jad Abumrad: Embrace the "Gut Churn" of the Creative Process
posted by kliuless at 3:21 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
What, no one wants to discuss the toenail advice?
I liked the advice about finishing. It probably needs to be paired with actually beginning, but “write tons” kind of covers that.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:52 AM on September 29, 2021
I liked the advice about finishing. It probably needs to be paired with actually beginning, but “write tons” kind of covers that.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:52 AM on September 29, 2021
If you're writing for routine publication (in the old days: newspapers, magazines), you KNOW how long you're aiming for. That's how many column-inches you're going to get. If it's longer, it's going to be deleted
What? No. When I was at Famous Journalists’ School, we were taught the inverted pyramid form for news stories: every paragraph is less relevant to understanding the story than the one before it. The editor snips it wherever necessary. If it’s been correctly structured, it still makes sense.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:29 AM on September 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
What? No. When I was at Famous Journalists’ School, we were taught the inverted pyramid form for news stories: every paragraph is less relevant to understanding the story than the one before it. The editor snips it wherever necessary. If it’s been correctly structured, it still makes sense.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:29 AM on September 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
I’ve often tried writing with a strict word count but
Haiku
by John Cooper Clarke
To-con-vey one’s mood
In sev-en-teen syll-able-s
Is ve-ry dif-fic
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:31 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Haiku
by John Cooper Clarke
To-con-vey one’s mood
In sev-en-teen syll-able-s
Is ve-ry dif-fic
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:31 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
A few years ago I did an experiment at my store. Every record that I thought was shit and a "dollar record" I would put a price tag on with a question mark on it. (e.g. Kansas, America, Rough Trade, Starship...) When someone asked, "What does this mean? How much is this?" I would say, "Offer me a fair price and it's yours." With zero exceptions, those people offered considerably more than the record was worth. Records worth $3 or $4 would get offers of $15 to $20.
I think I have mentioned on the blue before a friend of mine who is a talented artist After she graduated from university, she had a job in an arts supply store and had a great discount on supplies. On her days off, she’d just haul an easel to the corner of her block and paint the Victorian church on the corner there. She could produce a solid work in three or four hours.
She told me once that she sold every painting. If a passerby asked the price, she used to say fifty dollars, which she felt was a fair compensation for her time and the materials (note: at the time, minimum wage here was $5.25 per hour). She then realized that when she left the price open to “whatever you feel it’s worth, the offers were more like five hundred.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:40 AM on September 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
I think I have mentioned on the blue before a friend of mine who is a talented artist After she graduated from university, she had a job in an arts supply store and had a great discount on supplies. On her days off, she’d just haul an easel to the corner of her block and paint the Victorian church on the corner there. She could produce a solid work in three or four hours.
She told me once that she sold every painting. If a passerby asked the price, she used to say fifty dollars, which she felt was a fair compensation for her time and the materials (note: at the time, minimum wage here was $5.25 per hour). She then realized that when she left the price open to “whatever you feel it’s worth, the offers were more like five hundred.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:40 AM on September 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
Who "sucks" at writing and finds improvement by advice like, read a bunch and get feedback from others?
What? Like...literally everyone who ever improves at writing. One hundred percent of people suck at writing to start. If you are brand-new to writing and you think you don't suck you are wrong, you suck.
People do not realize how much reading and workshopping and listening actual good writers do. The lucky ones are the ones Eyebrows describes--folks whose careers depend on a sheer AMOUNT of writing which is all edited and chopped and argued over, folks who have no excuse to silo themselves away from the truth about their writing. They get the education and get paid (a pittance) to do it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:03 AM on September 29, 2021
What? Like...literally everyone who ever improves at writing. One hundred percent of people suck at writing to start. If you are brand-new to writing and you think you don't suck you are wrong, you suck.
People do not realize how much reading and workshopping and listening actual good writers do. The lucky ones are the ones Eyebrows describes--folks whose careers depend on a sheer AMOUNT of writing which is all edited and chopped and argued over, folks who have no excuse to silo themselves away from the truth about their writing. They get the education and get paid (a pittance) to do it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:03 AM on September 29, 2021
I practice a lot.
Also, I read a lot.
Also, also, I go outside a lot.
Alsoooooooo, I am paid a lot to write so I gotta push back on the it's a pittance all the time. Marketing is where it's extremely easy and lucrative. I'm being paid to write right now! Yet, I am not writing anything for them because I have done all my assignments. Technical writing is the same.
But I've practiced so much that I do things in one draft a few minutes that are deemed acceptable but would conceivably take other people a lot longer to do. Artistic output is not really measurable in the same way words per minute typing speed is.
edit: this is partially why I will never return to an office. 40 hours is meaningless when I'm strictly creative outcome based. I work closer to like 8...? I dunno.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:12 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, I read a lot.
Also, also, I go outside a lot.
Alsoooooooo, I am paid a lot to write so I gotta push back on the it's a pittance all the time. Marketing is where it's extremely easy and lucrative. I'm being paid to write right now! Yet, I am not writing anything for them because I have done all my assignments. Technical writing is the same.
But I've practiced so much that I do things in one draft a few minutes that are deemed acceptable but would conceivably take other people a lot longer to do. Artistic output is not really measurable in the same way words per minute typing speed is.
edit: this is partially why I will never return to an office. 40 hours is meaningless when I'm strictly creative outcome based. I work closer to like 8...? I dunno.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:12 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
The secret to good writing is to choose only the finest local, hand-crafted, artisanal words, and then put them order in the right.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:40 AM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:40 AM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
(Or, more seriously: As a professional writer, I would say that the secret to good writing is good editing.)
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:44 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:44 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hating myself for most of my life has made me an excellent self editor.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:50 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:50 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Chipping words out of a sentence is not high-value revision. Chipping out sentences that weren't needed in the first place is.
posted by Quasirandom at 8:21 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Quasirandom at 8:21 AM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
My first job out of college was as a general assignment reporter for a six-day daily newspaper where, if I wasn't chasing ambulances and fire trucks, I was reporting on town council or planning & zoning committee meetings. And on Sundays, I was typing up obituaries. And one time, there was a fantastic fatal fire murder mystery that I got to break and follow for a few months.
We had to file at least two 600-word (at least) stories a day. All the comments about honing writing skills as a newspaper writer are spot-on.
posted by emelenjr at 10:40 AM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
We had to file at least two 600-word (at least) stories a day. All the comments about honing writing skills as a newspaper writer are spot-on.
posted by emelenjr at 10:40 AM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
> But I cannot overstate how many dudes came waltzing into the newsroom like, "I'm the next Jack Kerouac! Edit me at your peril, rubes!" and rage-quit or quit in tears three days later.
I'm a dude, and for about two years in the early 2000s I made a meagre living as a freelance writer, kept afloat mainly by boring corporate gigs friends from university were able to land for me. I didn't mind being edited (by anyone) and found rejection difficult to deal with not because it was a blow to my ego but because it meant I was constantly having to repeat the hustle again and again and again with no guarantee of success, with all the stress (financial, mainly) that entailed. The writing was the easy part.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:04 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm a dude, and for about two years in the early 2000s I made a meagre living as a freelance writer, kept afloat mainly by boring corporate gigs friends from university were able to land for me. I didn't mind being edited (by anyone) and found rejection difficult to deal with not because it was a blow to my ego but because it meant I was constantly having to repeat the hustle again and again and again with no guarantee of success, with all the stress (financial, mainly) that entailed. The writing was the easy part.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:04 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Alsoooooooo, I am paid a lot to write so I gotta push back on the it's a pittance all the time. Marketing is where it's extremely easy and lucrative . . . I do things in one draft a few minutes that are deemed acceptable but would conceivably take other people a lot longer to do.
No, it's true, not all professional writing gigs pay a pittance; but it is relatively rare to find a situation in which one is 1) paid very well to write and 2) constantly pressured to improve their craft the way journalism jobs pressure one.
As you say, you're turning around "acceptable" work, fast enough that you mostly can spend your time not-writing. I also have a "writing" job (or anyway that's my title; my job is "wasting time in pointless meetings," but never mind) that pays decently. The job has a sort of skill floor--I certainly cannot submit terrible stuff -- but nobody cares if what I write is actually good, or getting any better over time. Any refining of my abilities would be entirely my own purview and would not result in any change to my job. This is fine with me because I'm not a writer, and I don't especially care about writing; it just happens to be the skill I acquired most easily during my education.
But that's not really the same goal as the audience of the FPP, which is people who want to make an ever-improving art of their writing. They don't want to hit the minimum faster, they want to get better. A journalism job isn't the only way to get this education but it's an efficient way to get it, and it beats MFA loans.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
No, it's true, not all professional writing gigs pay a pittance; but it is relatively rare to find a situation in which one is 1) paid very well to write and 2) constantly pressured to improve their craft the way journalism jobs pressure one.
As you say, you're turning around "acceptable" work, fast enough that you mostly can spend your time not-writing. I also have a "writing" job (or anyway that's my title; my job is "wasting time in pointless meetings," but never mind) that pays decently. The job has a sort of skill floor--I certainly cannot submit terrible stuff -- but nobody cares if what I write is actually good, or getting any better over time. Any refining of my abilities would be entirely my own purview and would not result in any change to my job. This is fine with me because I'm not a writer, and I don't especially care about writing; it just happens to be the skill I acquired most easily during my education.
But that's not really the same goal as the audience of the FPP, which is people who want to make an ever-improving art of their writing. They don't want to hit the minimum faster, they want to get better. A journalism job isn't the only way to get this education but it's an efficient way to get it, and it beats MFA loans.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:56 AM on September 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
My first job out of college was as a general assignment reporter for a six-day daily newspaper where, if I wasn't chasing ambulances and fire trucks, I was reporting on town council or planning & zoning committee meetings.
Heh. My predecessor as editor on the university newspaper went on to be an author and a columnist for a major daily, but his first job post-graduation was on the [small neighbouring town] beat for a medium-sized city's daily paper. He described it to me once as two years of zoning and landfills.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:46 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Heh. My predecessor as editor on the university newspaper went on to be an author and a columnist for a major daily, but his first job post-graduation was on the [small neighbouring town] beat for a medium-sized city's daily paper. He described it to me once as two years of zoning and landfills.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:46 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
So basically, the making of Divine Comedy, serialized over two years. I like it. "The vote was 5 to 3, with one abstention, to define the Blasphemers as 'Violent against God', and therefore added to Zone 7."
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:14 PM on September 29, 2021
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:14 PM on September 29, 2021
What never fails to amaze me as a professional writer—and it’s impossible to say this in any kind of non-pretentious-sounding way, but still—is how bad so many people are at just putting words together correctly.
I’m not even talking about the stuff I do, non-fiction articles and books, but, like, basic communication. Sentence structure, spelling, punctuation. Even sometimes from people for whom writing is a part of their job to some extent.
Maybe it’s the US educational system. Maybe it’s the myopic view of a professional. (Do soccer players feel this way about people kicking balls straight?) Maybe it’s spending most of my time reading things by other professionals, or places like here. Maybe it’s just not putting more effort into something you don’t absolutely have to, like I feel about making the bed.
I mean, I’m happy to get paid to do it. But it does feel weird sometimes, and a little ominous, to be reminded the bar is so low.
posted by gottabefunky at 1:37 PM on September 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I’m not even talking about the stuff I do, non-fiction articles and books, but, like, basic communication. Sentence structure, spelling, punctuation. Even sometimes from people for whom writing is a part of their job to some extent.
Maybe it’s the US educational system. Maybe it’s the myopic view of a professional. (Do soccer players feel this way about people kicking balls straight?) Maybe it’s spending most of my time reading things by other professionals, or places like here. Maybe it’s just not putting more effort into something you don’t absolutely have to, like I feel about making the bed.
I mean, I’m happy to get paid to do it. But it does feel weird sometimes, and a little ominous, to be reminded the bar is so low.
posted by gottabefunky at 1:37 PM on September 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's all about ruthless self-editing. At one of my first newspapers my editor used to say, "kill your darlings." I thought, why the hell would I kill the phrases I love? The answer is, usually they're phrases that only *you* love; you're not as clever as you think you are.
Elmore Leonard is (was? he died a few years ago) for his writing, crime novels with tight plots and memorable characters. Someone once asked him what made his novels so readable.
IIRC, he said, "I leave out the parts people tend to skip."
posted by martin q blank at 2:35 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Elmore Leonard is (was? he died a few years ago) for his writing, crime novels with tight plots and memorable characters. Someone once asked him what made his novels so readable.
IIRC, he said, "I leave out the parts people tend to skip."
posted by martin q blank at 2:35 PM on September 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
you're not as clever as you think you are
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a velociraptor.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:43 PM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a velociraptor.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:43 PM on September 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
(Or, more seriously: As a professional writer, I would say that the secret to good writing is good editing.)
That's probably true, but I read an interesting observation yesterday in a book about rare book dealing, that writers are probably the only creatives who have editors. As in, painters don't have editors. Composers don't have editors. Just writers. Maybe it's not really interesting, but it was interesting to me because I don't think I'd ever thought about it before.
There's probably some kind of annoying argument that can be had around it, like: painters and composers create sensations or whatever. But, there you are. It certainly does seem like writing is the only thing that gets edited. Oh and also film. But nothing else! And I guess print photography gets edited. And collections of things. And that's it!
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:46 PM on September 29, 2021
That's probably true, but I read an interesting observation yesterday in a book about rare book dealing, that writers are probably the only creatives who have editors. As in, painters don't have editors. Composers don't have editors. Just writers. Maybe it's not really interesting, but it was interesting to me because I don't think I'd ever thought about it before.
There's probably some kind of annoying argument that can be had around it, like: painters and composers create sensations or whatever. But, there you are. It certainly does seem like writing is the only thing that gets edited. Oh and also film. But nothing else! And I guess print photography gets edited. And collections of things. And that's it!
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:46 PM on September 29, 2021
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a velociraptor.
But they can figure out you’re a cockroach typing out vers libre at night after the editor has gone to sleep. The biggest clue is that you can’t hit the shift key and a letter at the same time unless the cat helps you, and she’s not the helping sort.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2021 [11 favorites]
But they can figure out you’re a cockroach typing out vers libre at night after the editor has gone to sleep. The biggest clue is that you can’t hit the shift key and a letter at the same time unless the cat helps you, and she’s not the helping sort.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:50 PM on September 29, 2021 [11 favorites]
writers are probably the only creatives who have editors. As in, painters don't have editors. Composers don't have editors. Just writers
Hmm. Interesting point, but I'm not sure I'm totally convinced. Music composed, performed, and recorded by one person doesn't require editing, but most modern music is more collaborative than that, and does receive what I think is a comparable form of editing from collaborators and producers. Maybe less so today than 20 years ago, but I think the point still stands. After all, writing doesn't require 3rd-party editing, either. But it almost always benefits at the hands of a good editor.
Visual arts (created on spec) are probably less dependent on anything comparable to editing than most other forms I can think of off the top of my head, although many artists also seek out feedback and interaction with other artists.
Interesting to think about why we approach different forms with different standards. Thanks!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:16 PM on September 29, 2021
Hmm. Interesting point, but I'm not sure I'm totally convinced. Music composed, performed, and recorded by one person doesn't require editing, but most modern music is more collaborative than that, and does receive what I think is a comparable form of editing from collaborators and producers. Maybe less so today than 20 years ago, but I think the point still stands. After all, writing doesn't require 3rd-party editing, either. But it almost always benefits at the hands of a good editor.
Visual arts (created on spec) are probably less dependent on anything comparable to editing than most other forms I can think of off the top of my head, although many artists also seek out feedback and interaction with other artists.
Interesting to think about why we approach different forms with different standards. Thanks!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:16 PM on September 29, 2021
It certainly does seem like writing is the only thing that gets edited.
Editors exist in other fields, they're just called something else ("art director," "principal architect," etc). The dynamic is the same, or at least very similar.
posted by jscalzi at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
Editors exist in other fields, they're just called something else ("art director," "principal architect," etc). The dynamic is the same, or at least very similar.
posted by jscalzi at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
How To Not Suck At Writing
I did what you see there.
Painters deal with galleries... I mean imagine if you will trying to paint something based on a half hour TV show.
posted by clavdivs at 7:38 PM on September 29, 2021
I did what you see there.
Painters deal with galleries... I mean imagine if you will trying to paint something based on a half hour TV show.
posted by clavdivs at 7:38 PM on September 29, 2021
"She told me once that she sold every painting. If a passerby asked the price, she used to say fifty dollars, which she felt was a fair compensation for her time and the materials (note: at the time, minimum wage here was $5.25 per hour). She then realized that when she left the price open to “whatever you feel it’s worth, the offers were more like five hundred."
I do this with clients all of the time. Not creative work (necessarily), other work. You can learn very quickly about a person's background in short/playful conversations involving money. A lot* of the time, if given creative control, or open direction, I almost always find people are incentivized to pay a little more or significantly more. It's when money stops being a hardship and starts representing what it's supposed to. Or something. I'm sure it works for writing, too.
posted by firstdaffodils at 10:00 PM on September 29, 2021
I do this with clients all of the time. Not creative work (necessarily), other work. You can learn very quickly about a person's background in short/playful conversations involving money. A lot* of the time, if given creative control, or open direction, I almost always find people are incentivized to pay a little more or significantly more. It's when money stops being a hardship and starts representing what it's supposed to. Or something. I'm sure it works for writing, too.
posted by firstdaffodils at 10:00 PM on September 29, 2021
What never fails to amaze me as a professional writer—and it’s impossible to say this in any kind of non-pretentious-sounding way, but still—is how bad so many people are at just putting words together correctly.
So I feel the same way but here's the thing. We are the only creatives engaged in something that everyone else HAS to do at least some times in their lives. Like you never have to paint a picture to communicate or interpret a sculpture to proceed (unless you're in a hidden temple, don't @ me, adventurers) ... but everyone goes to school (generally) and has to engage with writing.
Anyway, I'm not seeing all the people who are bad at painting. They don't want to paint, they don't paint. But we all HAVE to write sometimes. It's fine that they don't like it and aren't good at it, it took a lot of work passive and active to get where I'm at. If just old anyone could do it, well, guess it's back to the salt mines.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:13 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
So I feel the same way but here's the thing. We are the only creatives engaged in something that everyone else HAS to do at least some times in their lives. Like you never have to paint a picture to communicate or interpret a sculpture to proceed (unless you're in a hidden temple, don't @ me, adventurers) ... but everyone goes to school (generally) and has to engage with writing.
Anyway, I'm not seeing all the people who are bad at painting. They don't want to paint, they don't paint. But we all HAVE to write sometimes. It's fine that they don't like it and aren't good at it, it took a lot of work passive and active to get where I'm at. If just old anyone could do it, well, guess it's back to the salt mines.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 7:13 AM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think doing psychotherapy is often like an art form. And like writing, it often involves figuring out how to say something so that the intended audience gets it. But it's rare that I've been offered more for a session if I ask people to pay what it's worth.
posted by Obscure Reference at 12:19 PM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Obscure Reference at 12:19 PM on September 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
"But it's rare that I've been offered more for a session if I ask people to pay what it's worth." I could see how it would be rare.
"Kerouac delusions," I always enjoy when this reference comes up, and some people like-Keruoac actually feel reflective of the author's work or ego. It reminds me that Kerouac was just sort of the goofy surf bro of the Beat Gen or basically his own version of Joey from Friends, when the romantic wash settles. His work had some relevance or perks to it, but the ego associated with it is just a non-starter for what it actually is, or some of the writers around him created/later created.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:35 PM on October 2, 2021
"Kerouac delusions," I always enjoy when this reference comes up, and some people like-Keruoac actually feel reflective of the author's work or ego. It reminds me that Kerouac was just sort of the goofy surf bro of the Beat Gen or basically his own version of Joey from Friends, when the romantic wash settles. His work had some relevance or perks to it, but the ego associated with it is just a non-starter for what it actually is, or some of the writers around him created/later created.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:35 PM on October 2, 2021
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posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:49 PM on September 28, 2021 [25 favorites]