When do we break the rules?
October 26, 2021 6:39 AM Subscribe
Sometimes it's obvious when you need to break your own rules.
Other times it's less obvious. The "Cheat!" podcast by Alzo Slade examines situations where people break rules or norms.
Some of the episodes feel like a true-crime story, and it's clear who to root for; others lay out a more problematic situation where the answer is muddy (e.g., recent shows "Stolen Art, Stolen Back" and "the Tax Trick").
It's important to interrogate -- and sometimes challenge -- our own boundaries, in order to make sure they are still relevant and appropriate.
Other times it's less obvious. The "Cheat!" podcast by Alzo Slade examines situations where people break rules or norms.
Some of the episodes feel like a true-crime story, and it's clear who to root for; others lay out a more problematic situation where the answer is muddy (e.g., recent shows "Stolen Art, Stolen Back" and "the Tax Trick").
It's important to interrogate -- and sometimes challenge -- our own boundaries, in order to make sure they are still relevant and appropriate.
Two stories of times when dogmatic vows were overruled:
* Two monks were traveling together, one older than the other. They came to a river with a strong current where a young woman was waiting, unable to cross alone. She asked the monks if they would help her across the river. Without a word and in spite of the sacred vow he’d taken not to touch women, the older monk picked her up, crossed the river, and set her down on the other side.
The younger monk followed - he was aghast that the older monk broke his vow but didn't say anything. They travelled on in silence for an hour together. Then two hours. Then three. Finally, the now quite agitated younger monk could stand it no longer and asked: “Why did you carry that women when we took a vow as monks not to touch women?”
The older monk replied, “I set her down hours ago by the side of the river. Why are you still carrying her?”
--
* I am also reminded of something a former co-worker told us during Passover - that during the Holocaust, some people in the camps were worried about how they would keep Kosher, since the meals the Nazis were giving them usually involved bread and some kind of thin soup. If they kept the Passover laws against leavened bread, they'd eat nothing. What should they do?
Some people consulted a rabbi, my co-worker said - who told them that look, at the end of the day, God wants you to live. And if living means that this year you have to eat leavened bread during Passover, then so be it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:36 AM on October 26, 2021 [61 favorites]
* Two monks were traveling together, one older than the other. They came to a river with a strong current where a young woman was waiting, unable to cross alone. She asked the monks if they would help her across the river. Without a word and in spite of the sacred vow he’d taken not to touch women, the older monk picked her up, crossed the river, and set her down on the other side.
The younger monk followed - he was aghast that the older monk broke his vow but didn't say anything. They travelled on in silence for an hour together. Then two hours. Then three. Finally, the now quite agitated younger monk could stand it no longer and asked: “Why did you carry that women when we took a vow as monks not to touch women?”
The older monk replied, “I set her down hours ago by the side of the river. Why are you still carrying her?”
--
* I am also reminded of something a former co-worker told us during Passover - that during the Holocaust, some people in the camps were worried about how they would keep Kosher, since the meals the Nazis were giving them usually involved bread and some kind of thin soup. If they kept the Passover laws against leavened bread, they'd eat nothing. What should they do?
Some people consulted a rabbi, my co-worker said - who told them that look, at the end of the day, God wants you to live. And if living means that this year you have to eat leavened bread during Passover, then so be it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:36 AM on October 26, 2021 [61 favorites]
Yes, this seems to be similar to the Jewish concept of Pikuach Nefesh, which allows almost any rule to be broken in order to save a life.
posted by fros1y at 7:46 AM on October 26, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by fros1y at 7:46 AM on October 26, 2021 [19 favorites]
@EmpressCallipygos - these are great examples.
On a smaller scale: my brother, a devoted vegetarian, spent a summer in Belize during grad school doing research on environmental issues. He was paired with a host family - a single mother with two small girls, one very ill. My brother said it was evident that the money he was paying for room and board was a godsend to this family. Every evening meal contained some sort of meat — goat or chicken, something easily available to the family. So, he spent that summer eating meat, to preserve the dignity of his host and because he knew that if he felt that he mentioned he didn’t eat meat, that the mother would go out of her way to try to buy more expensive ingredients to meet his needs.
posted by Silvery Fish at 7:47 AM on October 26, 2021 [49 favorites]
On a smaller scale: my brother, a devoted vegetarian, spent a summer in Belize during grad school doing research on environmental issues. He was paired with a host family - a single mother with two small girls, one very ill. My brother said it was evident that the money he was paying for room and board was a godsend to this family. Every evening meal contained some sort of meat — goat or chicken, something easily available to the family. So, he spent that summer eating meat, to preserve the dignity of his host and because he knew that if he felt that he mentioned he didn’t eat meat, that the mother would go out of her way to try to buy more expensive ingredients to meet his needs.
posted by Silvery Fish at 7:47 AM on October 26, 2021 [49 favorites]
(i) Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.From Orwell's "Politics And The English Language".
(ii) Never us a long word where a short one will do.
(iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
(iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active.
(v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
(vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.
posted by mhoye at 7:49 AM on October 26, 2021 [32 favorites]
Silvery Fish - you've just also reminded me of a story I heard about George and Olivia Harrison visiting a family friend for a holiday meal. The friend was quite ill with cancer, but still insisted on making dinner for them all from scratch. And when dinner time rolled around, she proudly served forth - a big roast turkey with all the trimmings.
The Harrisons were vegetarians, for religious reasons. However - they also realized just how hard it must have been for their friend to go through all that trouble for them. So they said nothing, and ate it, feeling nothing but gratitude for the trouble their friend had gone through.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:52 AM on October 26, 2021 [15 favorites]
The Harrisons were vegetarians, for religious reasons. However - they also realized just how hard it must have been for their friend to go through all that trouble for them. So they said nothing, and ate it, feeling nothing but gratitude for the trouble their friend had gone through.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:52 AM on October 26, 2021 [15 favorites]
All the orthopractic beliefs I know of allow for violation of rules in extreme circumstances. It makes complete sense, and people who insist on the rules rather than bending to human need aren’t considered good.
I remember aBuddhist teacher being aghast that a student felt he couldn’t leave a retreat to attend a dying family members because he thought it would be against his practice.
Another Buddhist example is that early monks weren’t vegetarians, they were not supposed to eat meat “killed for them.” Since they survived on donations of food, it would be ungrateful to not eat what they were given. If a meal was being prepared n their honor, they were to let people know that they were vegetarian.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:26 AM on October 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
I remember aBuddhist teacher being aghast that a student felt he couldn’t leave a retreat to attend a dying family members because he thought it would be against his practice.
Another Buddhist example is that early monks weren’t vegetarians, they were not supposed to eat meat “killed for them.” Since they survived on donations of food, it would be ungrateful to not eat what they were given. If a meal was being prepared n their honor, they were to let people know that they were vegetarian.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:26 AM on October 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
(vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.
we used to do a thing back in the day. List a bunch of rules for something (a party, a radio show, an acid trip) with the last one always being:
There Are No Rules.
I still, more or less, live by this credo. Absolutes are for fanatics.
posted by philip-random at 8:57 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
we used to do a thing back in the day. List a bunch of rules for something (a party, a radio show, an acid trip) with the last one always being:
There Are No Rules.
I still, more or less, live by this credo. Absolutes are for fanatics.
posted by philip-random at 8:57 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
All the orthopractic beliefs I know of allow for violation of rules in extreme circumstances.
Well, yeah. It wouldn't be a very long-lasting praxis if it allowed minor disputes to escalate into a literal hill to die on, or led to perversely self-defeating outcomes.
I mean, that'd be... *glances in direction of the Herman Cain Award subreddit* ...pretty stupid.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:58 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Well, yeah. It wouldn't be a very long-lasting praxis if it allowed minor disputes to escalate into a literal hill to die on, or led to perversely self-defeating outcomes.
I mean, that'd be... *glances in direction of the Herman Cain Award subreddit* ...pretty stupid.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:58 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Absolutes are for fanatics.
Well, sometimes.
posted by logicpunk at 9:23 AM on October 26, 2021 [37 favorites]
Well, sometimes.
posted by logicpunk at 9:23 AM on October 26, 2021 [37 favorites]
Well, sometimes.
posted by logicpunk
I am kissing my fingers like a chef here.
posted by mhoye at 9:31 AM on October 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by logicpunk
I am kissing my fingers like a chef here.
posted by mhoye at 9:31 AM on October 26, 2021 [13 favorites]
(Just as a side note, every time I see a news article with "Sihk" in the headline, I expect that I am going to see something awesome.)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:42 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 9:42 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Every evening meal contained some sort of meat — goat or chicken, something easily available to the family. So, he spent that summer eating meat, to preserve the dignity of his host and because he knew that if he felt that he mentioned he didn’t eat meat, that the mother would go out of her way to try to buy more expensive ingredients to meet his needs.
More expensive than meat? I have to think the host was serving a richer diet than usual, because that's just what you do with guests.
But I can see trying to untangle that being a daunting prospect.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:48 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
More expensive than meat? I have to think the host was serving a richer diet than usual, because that's just what you do with guests.
But I can see trying to untangle that being a daunting prospect.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:48 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
There's a danger of oversimplifying rule-breaking, just as there is a danger of oversimplifying rule-following.
Sikhs' adherence to the "5 Ks", and the associated sanctity of the turban, have preserved their faith and community for many centuries. At the same time, helping the less fortunate is a crucial Sikh value as well.
So, while these people took off their turban to save others' lives in a moment of emergency, Sikhs have also held on to their religion in extreme circumstances. Notably, Sikh gurus were willing to be tortured and killed rather than relinquish the markers of their faith. Also, modern-day Sikhs have pushed back against military uniform and motorcycle helmet mandates that interfere with their observance. The rule breaking is not as simple as some comments in this thread suggest.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:51 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Sikhs' adherence to the "5 Ks", and the associated sanctity of the turban, have preserved their faith and community for many centuries. At the same time, helping the less fortunate is a crucial Sikh value as well.
So, while these people took off their turban to save others' lives in a moment of emergency, Sikhs have also held on to their religion in extreme circumstances. Notably, Sikh gurus were willing to be tortured and killed rather than relinquish the markers of their faith. Also, modern-day Sikhs have pushed back against military uniform and motorcycle helmet mandates that interfere with their observance. The rule breaking is not as simple as some comments in this thread suggest.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:51 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Notably, Sikh gurus were willing to be tortured and killed rather than relinquish the markers of their faith. Also, modern-day Sikhs have pushed back against military uniform and motorcycle helmet mandates that interfere with their observance.
Those are really personal decisions though and I can at least respect them for it. I think in the case of the examples provided in the OP there is a clear thread of service for one's fellow person overriding all other rules.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:55 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Those are really personal decisions though and I can at least respect them for it. I think in the case of the examples provided in the OP there is a clear thread of service for one's fellow person overriding all other rules.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:55 AM on October 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
@EmpressCallipygos - thanks for sharing that story. I had not heard it before -- and I bet my child will love hearing this one as well.
@ChurchHatesTucker -- the mother raised goats and chickens, so it might have been the difference between eating what she had versus something that would require actual cash. This was in the 1980s, and - at least then - there was a lot of corruption where the mother lived. When my brother got back to the states, he sent a large box of food, including a couple of big jars of peanut butter (which were rare and locally expensive). When he checked in with the mom, she said that there were no jars of peanut butter, but a big hole had been cut into the box and then taped over. My brother suspected that someone in customs or the post office had gone fishing thru the package and took what they wanted to sell on the black market. Perhaps that context helps.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:15 AM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
@ChurchHatesTucker -- the mother raised goats and chickens, so it might have been the difference between eating what she had versus something that would require actual cash. This was in the 1980s, and - at least then - there was a lot of corruption where the mother lived. When my brother got back to the states, he sent a large box of food, including a couple of big jars of peanut butter (which were rare and locally expensive). When he checked in with the mom, she said that there were no jars of peanut butter, but a big hole had been cut into the box and then taped over. My brother suspected that someone in customs or the post office had gone fishing thru the package and took what they wanted to sell on the black market. Perhaps that context helps.
posted by Silvery Fish at 10:15 AM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
Most rules make very good guidelines.
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 AM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:32 AM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
The principle of Pikuach Nefesh is a rule about breaking rules.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:47 AM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:47 AM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I always feel so goddamn guilty when I read about vegetarians showing respect by eating meat served to them, but there's no way I'd be able to do that. I'm a vegetarian for cultural reasons, and strongly habituated to coding meat of any kind as "not food" in my brain. I could no more stomach a meat dish than the average American could eat a jar of live slugs.
I'm not, like, a fundamentalist about it. My kids are not vegetarian, and I happily cook meat for them in my kitchen all the time. It took a while for me to get over the aversion I had to handling raw chicken or cleaning a fish, but I've done it. It's eating those things that's nigh impossible for me. I think it would take literal starvation to overcome this psychological barrier.
But all the while, people are gonna judge me for being disrespectful to my hosts if I was ever in the position that some of y'all were in. Sigh.
posted by MiraK at 12:01 PM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm not, like, a fundamentalist about it. My kids are not vegetarian, and I happily cook meat for them in my kitchen all the time. It took a while for me to get over the aversion I had to handling raw chicken or cleaning a fish, but I've done it. It's eating those things that's nigh impossible for me. I think it would take literal starvation to overcome this psychological barrier.
But all the while, people are gonna judge me for being disrespectful to my hosts if I was ever in the position that some of y'all were in. Sigh.
posted by MiraK at 12:01 PM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
The rule breaking is not as simple as some comments in this thread suggest.
I think the point of most of these examples is that they are temporary, brief, and driven by external circumstances. So a Sikh removing his turban for the time it takes to save a person’s life is really different from a Sikh being asked to shave his beard to meet a dress code, much less a teacher being tortured to abjure the religion.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:12 PM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think the point of most of these examples is that they are temporary, brief, and driven by external circumstances. So a Sikh removing his turban for the time it takes to save a person’s life is really different from a Sikh being asked to shave his beard to meet a dress code, much less a teacher being tortured to abjure the religion.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:12 PM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
But all the while, people are gonna judge me for being disrespectful to my hosts if I was ever in the position that some of y'all were in.
I was the one who brought up an example of what you're talking about, so I'll say - God, no, I'd never do that. There are a lot of graceful ways out of that particular situation, and I trust that you would find an alternate way which would be graceful as well. So what if it didn't involve you eating meat specifically.
Which reminds me of yet another story I read, from a Jewish journalist who was in China as a young reporter. He was invited to some banquet or other, and it was some minor Jewish holiday and he still tried to observe the dietary laws where he could; and to his horror he realized he had forgotten to alert his hosts to this, and so the centerpiece of the meal was a huge roast pig.
He panicked quietly, and decided to try to cope with it by doing the push-the-food-around-on-your-plate thing to fake it. But after a while his hosts started noticing that he was eating everything but the roast pig, and commenting on it. He made a few "yeah, I'm waiting for my second wind, haha" kinds of comments at first, trying to brush it off, but his hosts still noticed, even asking him stuff like "maybe you want more from the cheek instead of the chop? Is that it?" Finally, the writer blurted out that "I can't eat pig because of my religion." This was something that his hosts never knew about, and he had to explain the Kosher rule against pork to them; and when they understood, they were themselves mortified that they had put HIM in that position.
And they sat there a few seconds, everyone feeling super-awkward. But finally the host smiled. "Ah, I think I understand what's happening," he said. "See, you need to remember - we're in China right now."
"....Huh?"
"We're in China right now," the host repeated. "And everywhere else in the world, I bet that looks like a pig. But here in China...." he pointed to the roast pig. "Here in China, that's a duck."
It was a totally bonkers move, but the guest realized that the host was trying to get them all out of an awkward situation and this was the only solution he could think of, so they all went with it.
Someday if you're at a dinner party and someone serves you meat, but you take some other route out of that situation that works without your eating meat, then that's what counts.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:15 PM on October 26, 2021 [20 favorites]
I was the one who brought up an example of what you're talking about, so I'll say - God, no, I'd never do that. There are a lot of graceful ways out of that particular situation, and I trust that you would find an alternate way which would be graceful as well. So what if it didn't involve you eating meat specifically.
Which reminds me of yet another story I read, from a Jewish journalist who was in China as a young reporter. He was invited to some banquet or other, and it was some minor Jewish holiday and he still tried to observe the dietary laws where he could; and to his horror he realized he had forgotten to alert his hosts to this, and so the centerpiece of the meal was a huge roast pig.
He panicked quietly, and decided to try to cope with it by doing the push-the-food-around-on-your-plate thing to fake it. But after a while his hosts started noticing that he was eating everything but the roast pig, and commenting on it. He made a few "yeah, I'm waiting for my second wind, haha" kinds of comments at first, trying to brush it off, but his hosts still noticed, even asking him stuff like "maybe you want more from the cheek instead of the chop? Is that it?" Finally, the writer blurted out that "I can't eat pig because of my religion." This was something that his hosts never knew about, and he had to explain the Kosher rule against pork to them; and when they understood, they were themselves mortified that they had put HIM in that position.
And they sat there a few seconds, everyone feeling super-awkward. But finally the host smiled. "Ah, I think I understand what's happening," he said. "See, you need to remember - we're in China right now."
"....Huh?"
"We're in China right now," the host repeated. "And everywhere else in the world, I bet that looks like a pig. But here in China...." he pointed to the roast pig. "Here in China, that's a duck."
It was a totally bonkers move, but the guest realized that the host was trying to get them all out of an awkward situation and this was the only solution he could think of, so they all went with it.
Someday if you're at a dinner party and someone serves you meat, but you take some other route out of that situation that works without your eating meat, then that's what counts.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:15 PM on October 26, 2021 [20 favorites]
Some people consulted a rabbi, my co-worker said - who told them that look, at the end of the day, God wants you to live. And if living means that this year you have to eat leavened bread during Passover, then so be it.
I had some friends over this weekend and at one point one of them who grew up in a fervently religious Muslim household and is now very strongly anti-religion was expressing incredulity over the idea that rabbis spend their whole lives/careers studying how to live up to all the commandments of the Talmud, debating things like the order in which you put water and the tea bag in the pot in order to keep shabbat. (she wasn't being critical of judaism in particular, just the idea that people devote so much energy to following religious strictures.)
But even as a non-observant Jew myself, I like that rabbis study and debate these things because it's an acknowledgement that life isn't black and white, and everyone is trying to do their best.
posted by dry white toast at 12:54 PM on October 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
I had some friends over this weekend and at one point one of them who grew up in a fervently religious Muslim household and is now very strongly anti-religion was expressing incredulity over the idea that rabbis spend their whole lives/careers studying how to live up to all the commandments of the Talmud, debating things like the order in which you put water and the tea bag in the pot in order to keep shabbat. (she wasn't being critical of judaism in particular, just the idea that people devote so much energy to following religious strictures.)
But even as a non-observant Jew myself, I like that rabbis study and debate these things because it's an acknowledgement that life isn't black and white, and everyone is trying to do their best.
posted by dry white toast at 12:54 PM on October 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
(Funny to me as OP that no one is commenting on the second link, to the podcast episodes. Especially the two I link directly to, which describe genuinely ambiguous situations. And not hypotheticals, but things that really happened. I found my mind wandering back to both stories for days.)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:18 PM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by wenestvedt at 1:18 PM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Funny to me as OP that no one is commenting on the second link, to the podcast episodes.
That's an hour plus of audio. Give it time.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:27 PM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
That's an hour plus of audio. Give it time.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:27 PM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
Couple of personal stories here....
I worked at local farmers markets for years. The nice thing about cool farmers who have produce or product that there is a strong and steady supply of is that they can scale the price based on the customers need in front of them.....sometimes surreptitiously giving product away if the person was in financial straits. Owners do this up front. I had to do it behind the farmers back, sometimes juggling the numbers to balance out final sales numbers. A lot of market farmers also work on the honor systems. So get to know your farmers. Bring them cookies every now and then. Chances are they are doing this.
It was easy for me to do this working for a dairy farm as, literally, there was a constant flow of product that a lot of, I knew, would have to be disposed of later down the line.
Not so easy to do with beef as it is a finite source.
I currently work at a butcher shop. When drivers arrived with deliveries early in the morning, I would make sure that they would leave with something to drink (water, cold brew, etc). These guys drive incredible distances in Los Angeles traffic, especially in the summertime. They really appreciate the small gesture of support and respect, a good relationship is built, they'll look out for the store, and the store benefits in the long run. I don't care if I take it. I don't care if it is called stealing. I see it as an inexpensive gift from the store that benefits it in the long run.
The new owner is an ass. I'm not sure what tabs they've been keeping on their product. I don't care. I've been finding ways to sneak water to the guys over the past couple of weeks.
The flame is worth the candle....
posted by goalyeehah at 2:10 PM on October 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
I worked at local farmers markets for years. The nice thing about cool farmers who have produce or product that there is a strong and steady supply of is that they can scale the price based on the customers need in front of them.....sometimes surreptitiously giving product away if the person was in financial straits. Owners do this up front. I had to do it behind the farmers back, sometimes juggling the numbers to balance out final sales numbers. A lot of market farmers also work on the honor systems. So get to know your farmers. Bring them cookies every now and then. Chances are they are doing this.
It was easy for me to do this working for a dairy farm as, literally, there was a constant flow of product that a lot of, I knew, would have to be disposed of later down the line.
Not so easy to do with beef as it is a finite source.
I currently work at a butcher shop. When drivers arrived with deliveries early in the morning, I would make sure that they would leave with something to drink (water, cold brew, etc). These guys drive incredible distances in Los Angeles traffic, especially in the summertime. They really appreciate the small gesture of support and respect, a good relationship is built, they'll look out for the store, and the store benefits in the long run. I don't care if I take it. I don't care if it is called stealing. I see it as an inexpensive gift from the store that benefits it in the long run.
The new owner is an ass. I'm not sure what tabs they've been keeping on their product. I don't care. I've been finding ways to sneak water to the guys over the past couple of weeks.
The flame is worth the candle....
posted by goalyeehah at 2:10 PM on October 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
> EmpressCallipygos:
"We're in China right now," the host repeated. "And everywhere else in the world, I bet that looks like a pig. But here in China...." he pointed to the roast pig. "Here in China, that's a duck."
And that's (probably) how you get Capybara = Fish.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 2:17 PM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
"We're in China right now," the host repeated. "And everywhere else in the world, I bet that looks like a pig. But here in China...." he pointed to the roast pig. "Here in China, that's a duck."
And that's (probably) how you get Capybara = Fish.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 2:17 PM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
> "Here in China, that's a duck." ... the guest realized that the host was trying to get them all out of an awkward situation and this was the only solution he could think of, so they all went with it
Wait, what does that mean? Did the guest end up having to eat it because it was now a "duck"?
posted by MiraK at 2:40 PM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Wait, what does that mean? Did the guest end up having to eat it because it was now a "duck"?
posted by MiraK at 2:40 PM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
The Sikhs are the military in India, a warrior caste, almost. Of the five Ks, the last one is kutchas, which is underwear. The reality used to be, if they were captured, the Sikhs were left with only their underwear. But because it was uniform in style, it was still a uniform, and left them identifiable to each other.
posted by Oyéah at 3:54 PM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 3:54 PM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Wait, what does that mean? Did the guest end up having to eat it because it was now a "duck"?
Yes? I think it saves everyone's face: the host didn't give his guest something that they are forbidden to eat, and the guest has an excuse for breaking their faith's prohibition. I mean, it's clearly bullshit, but that's what saving face is about, right?
posted by wenestvedt at 7:40 PM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yes? I think it saves everyone's face: the host didn't give his guest something that they are forbidden to eat, and the guest has an excuse for breaking their faith's prohibition. I mean, it's clearly bullshit, but that's what saving face is about, right?
posted by wenestvedt at 7:40 PM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have used similar situational considerations during forty plus years as a vegetarian. Sociability is more important than proselytizing.
There are other unarticulated rules which cannot be broken, when they lurk as forbidden topics of discussion, enforced by communities of interest.
So "breaking rules" is not really, at all, just a question of when do I break my own personal rule because there's an unanticipated consideration. More importantly, I may be in a community which does not allow breaking its imposed rule, regardless of the merits, which are not allowed in evidence. Discussion of the issue may be prohibited. E.g. Metafilter has subjects which may not be discussed, which may be reasonable. Is it reasonable that it's not possible to discuss the boundaries of such prohibitions?
We know Buddhists can do this.
posted by lathrop at 8:03 PM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
There are other unarticulated rules which cannot be broken, when they lurk as forbidden topics of discussion, enforced by communities of interest.
So "breaking rules" is not really, at all, just a question of when do I break my own personal rule because there's an unanticipated consideration. More importantly, I may be in a community which does not allow breaking its imposed rule, regardless of the merits, which are not allowed in evidence. Discussion of the issue may be prohibited. E.g. Metafilter has subjects which may not be discussed, which may be reasonable. Is it reasonable that it's not possible to discuss the boundaries of such prohibitions?
We know Buddhists can do this.
posted by lathrop at 8:03 PM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Most rules make very good guidelines.
posted by flabdablet
One of the most critical life skills is knowing when and how it is okay (and even necessary) to bend or even break the rules.
posted by Pouteria at 8:32 PM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet
One of the most critical life skills is knowing when and how it is okay (and even necessary) to bend or even break the rules.
posted by Pouteria at 8:32 PM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wait, what does that mean? Did the guest end up having to eat it because it was now a "duck"?
The guest recognized it for what it was - a panicky way out of what was an awkward situation for everyone. The host was feeling horrified and guilty for having put the guest in such an awkward position - but it was too late to make him something else, so the host was clearly a little panicked and the only thing he could come up with to fix it was "hey everyone let's all pretend this isn't pork, that will make everything okay!"
And the guest decided that you know what, I'll bend the rules just this once because that is adorably goofy. I mean, he may have only had a very little bit, but that was his thinking - realizing that his host didn't mean it and was freaking out about "oh my god I insulted my guest aaaaaaaah I didn't mean to" and eating a little was his way of saying "it's okay, I know you didn't mean it and I'm not insulted".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:10 AM on October 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
The guest recognized it for what it was - a panicky way out of what was an awkward situation for everyone. The host was feeling horrified and guilty for having put the guest in such an awkward position - but it was too late to make him something else, so the host was clearly a little panicked and the only thing he could come up with to fix it was "hey everyone let's all pretend this isn't pork, that will make everything okay!"
And the guest decided that you know what, I'll bend the rules just this once because that is adorably goofy. I mean, he may have only had a very little bit, but that was his thinking - realizing that his host didn't mean it and was freaking out about "oh my god I insulted my guest aaaaaaaah I didn't mean to" and eating a little was his way of saying "it's okay, I know you didn't mean it and I'm not insulted".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:10 AM on October 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Thanks for clarifying, EmpressCallipygos. I think I'm quite a lot less impressed with the host of that story than you seem to be, because it's the opposite of gracious in my book to smooth over awkwardness in a way that requires the other person to do all the work to accommodate you. It would have been so much more gracious to allow the guest to continue eating around the pig, surely, instead of finding this "gracious" way to insist that they must eat the pig.
(Not to mention, if someone tried to tell me, "No, this is not meat, you're in [insert country] so here we call this salad!" that would absolutely not work in my case to help me eat a little of the meat!)
posted by MiraK at 6:48 AM on October 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
(Not to mention, if someone tried to tell me, "No, this is not meat, you're in [insert country] so here we call this salad!" that would absolutely not work in my case to help me eat a little of the meat!)
posted by MiraK at 6:48 AM on October 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
And the guest decided that you know what, I'll bend the rules just this once because that is adorably goofy. I mean, he may have only had a very little bit, but that was his thinking - realizing that his host didn't mean it and was freaking out about "oh my god I insulted my guest aaaaaaaah I didn't mean to" and eating a little was his way of saying "it's okay, I know you didn't mean it and I'm not insulted".
It also let the reporter out of the embarrassing predicament of insulting his host by refusing to eat the main course of the meal (which, as the story confirmed, the hosts obviously noticed). It's face saving all around.
But in a way, it isn't really rule-breaking at all; it's honoring the rules of hospitality, which are almost universal to many cultures, over specific rules of dietary restriction. Any rule-breaking is in service of a higher rule, so it's okay.
posted by Gelatin at 6:53 AM on October 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
It also let the reporter out of the embarrassing predicament of insulting his host by refusing to eat the main course of the meal (which, as the story confirmed, the hosts obviously noticed). It's face saving all around.
But in a way, it isn't really rule-breaking at all; it's honoring the rules of hospitality, which are almost universal to many cultures, over specific rules of dietary restriction. Any rule-breaking is in service of a higher rule, so it's okay.
posted by Gelatin at 6:53 AM on October 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
* I am also reminded of something a former co-worker told us during Passover - that during the Holocaust, some people in the camps were worried about how they would keep Kosher, since the meals the Nazis were giving them usually involved bread and some kind of thin soup. If they kept the Passover laws against leavened bread, they'd eat nothing. What should they do?
Some people consulted a rabbi, my co-worker said - who told them that look, at the end of the day, God wants you to live. And if living means that this year you have to eat leavened bread during Passover, then so be it.
I went to a Catholic mass to commemorate the death of my uncle (I was there with family to commemorate the death. The mass was just regular daily mass, not a special mass for this intention). The first reading reading was from the book of Maccabees where a woman's seven sons were all killed in front of her one after the other because they refused to eat pork. I knew that under Jewish law it's more important to save a life (including your own) than to follow the rule, so I was surprised by this story. And I was looking forward to the homily because I thought they might discuss this point. Instead the homily was a bizarre racist, transphobic nonesense dump.
I was pregnant at the time and had told my mom that there was no way I was involving the Catholic church in my son's life. She was disappointed and also didn't really understand. At one point during the homily she turned and looked at me and I mouthed "That's why." and I think she's still kind of disappointed, but she gets it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:50 AM on October 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
Some people consulted a rabbi, my co-worker said - who told them that look, at the end of the day, God wants you to live. And if living means that this year you have to eat leavened bread during Passover, then so be it.
I went to a Catholic mass to commemorate the death of my uncle (I was there with family to commemorate the death. The mass was just regular daily mass, not a special mass for this intention). The first reading reading was from the book of Maccabees where a woman's seven sons were all killed in front of her one after the other because they refused to eat pork. I knew that under Jewish law it's more important to save a life (including your own) than to follow the rule, so I was surprised by this story. And I was looking forward to the homily because I thought they might discuss this point. Instead the homily was a bizarre racist, transphobic nonesense dump.
I was pregnant at the time and had told my mom that there was no way I was involving the Catholic church in my son's life. She was disappointed and also didn't really understand. At one point during the homily she turned and looked at me and I mouthed "That's why." and I think she's still kind of disappointed, but she gets it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:50 AM on October 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
It's so tricky to see people discussing Jewish rituals/laws/practices without much understanding behind it. I'm no expert but I know there is more to it than apparent from the discussion here.
Yes, there are exceptions for preserving life. Yes, there is also an acknowledgement that especially in public situations where the clear goal is breaking a person's/community's spirit, martyrdom is the rule.
Yes, there are some actions that are plainly forbidden. Yes, there are exceptions where you can do the thing but with a small difference that indicates (for you and and for others, it applies both in private and public) that this is not the normal course of events but an exception. The religious Jew at the banquet would surely have been aware of that tradition and the public declaration of pig as duck may well have been enough to fit into that sensibility for that person and actually felt consistent with his tradition rather than an indication of a lack of commitment to it or "it's cute, what the hell". What the hell kind of uninformed position from which to publicly speculate on the internal reasoning or mindset of the people involved...
Yes, these rules/guidelines have never actually been practiced with perfect consistency and have always been adapted to the needs and circumstances of the time. And no, a Catholic mass is not where I'd expect to get an informed and nuanced or even accurate education about how these traditions were practiced in ancient times.
Yes, there is information available in English about all of these things for anybody who is interested in learning about them, and relating to Judaism as an ongoing lived tradition and not quaint historical material for other people's parables.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:28 AM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, there are exceptions for preserving life. Yes, there is also an acknowledgement that especially in public situations where the clear goal is breaking a person's/community's spirit, martyrdom is the rule.
Yes, there are some actions that are plainly forbidden. Yes, there are exceptions where you can do the thing but with a small difference that indicates (for you and and for others, it applies both in private and public) that this is not the normal course of events but an exception. The religious Jew at the banquet would surely have been aware of that tradition and the public declaration of pig as duck may well have been enough to fit into that sensibility for that person and actually felt consistent with his tradition rather than an indication of a lack of commitment to it or "it's cute, what the hell". What the hell kind of uninformed position from which to publicly speculate on the internal reasoning or mindset of the people involved...
Yes, these rules/guidelines have never actually been practiced with perfect consistency and have always been adapted to the needs and circumstances of the time. And no, a Catholic mass is not where I'd expect to get an informed and nuanced or even accurate education about how these traditions were practiced in ancient times.
Yes, there is information available in English about all of these things for anybody who is interested in learning about them, and relating to Judaism as an ongoing lived tradition and not quaint historical material for other people's parables.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:28 AM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
"The first reading reading was from the book of Maccabees where a woman's seven sons were all killed in front of her one after the other because they refused to eat pork. I knew that under Jewish law it's more important to save a life (including your own) than to follow the rule, so I was surprised by this story. "
and
And no, a Catholic mass is not where I'd expect to get an informed and nuanced or even accurate education about how these traditions were practiced in ancient times.
Especially given that Second Maccabees is not part of the Jewish scriptures (nor the Protestant Christian scriptures, for that matter). Catholics and some Orthodox use it, but it's a pretty shady text. As the Hebrew Scriptures were canonized (/set into fixed form with a fixed set of books) through the first and second centuries CE, Jewish teachers and scholars at the time looked at the Maccabees books and went "..... mmmmm, no."
Which leads to our second point, which is that Second Maccabees is largely bananas. (Catholics and Orthodox like it because it's got the resurrection of the dead and intercession of "saints" and WOOT! WOOT! MARTYRDOM!) But there's a reason that Christian theologians wanting to talk about the resurrection of the dead point to the New Testament, and that is because Maccabees is bananas.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:03 AM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
and
And no, a Catholic mass is not where I'd expect to get an informed and nuanced or even accurate education about how these traditions were practiced in ancient times.
Especially given that Second Maccabees is not part of the Jewish scriptures (nor the Protestant Christian scriptures, for that matter). Catholics and some Orthodox use it, but it's a pretty shady text. As the Hebrew Scriptures were canonized (/set into fixed form with a fixed set of books) through the first and second centuries CE, Jewish teachers and scholars at the time looked at the Maccabees books and went "..... mmmmm, no."
Which leads to our second point, which is that Second Maccabees is largely bananas. (Catholics and Orthodox like it because it's got the resurrection of the dead and intercession of "saints" and WOOT! WOOT! MARTYRDOM!) But there's a reason that Christian theologians wanting to talk about the resurrection of the dead point to the New Testament, and that is because Maccabees is bananas.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:03 AM on October 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: Second Maccabees is largely bananas
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:25 AM on November 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
"It's so tricky to see people discussing Jewish rituals/laws/practices without much understanding behind it. I'm no expert but I know there is more to it than apparent from the discussion here."
Yeah I wanted to write more, but that's why I dropped that link in upthread.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah I wanted to write more, but that's why I dropped that link in upthread.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:55 PM on November 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
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When I first saw this film, I just thought that was a clever ruse. It wasn't until many years later that I learned that the samurai topknot was kind of sacred, and that him shaving it off was a Big Deal.
I like it when people do the right thing, even if it breaks with their cultural norms.
posted by nushustu at 6:55 AM on October 26, 2021 [19 favorites]