Alberta plans to drop vaccine passports
February 4, 2022 7:37 AM Subscribe
As Coutts anti-mandate blockade continues, Alberta government plans to drop vaccine passports: With attention on the "Freedom Convoy" in Ottawa, some of us may have missed the Alberta/Montana blockade. The Kenney government appears poised to end vaccine passports (referred to as the Restrictions Exemption Program). I'm hearing rumors of the provincial government looking for ways to override municipal mask bylaws but I haven't started digging for verification.
And in contrast... Austria became the first country in Europe to introduce a national Covid-19 vaccine mandate for adults on Friday... The new law will last until January 31, 2024 and could see unvaccinated people face a maximum fine of 3,600 euros up to four times a year.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:03 AM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:03 AM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
The same noises about dropping the passports are coming from Queen's Park. I am so tired.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:04 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:04 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm hearing rumors of the provincial government looking for ways to override municipal mask bylaws but I haven't started digging for verification.
Kenney said it during his Facebook live appearance last night; I'll see if I can dig up the video clip.
posted by nubs at 8:04 AM on February 4, 2022
Kenney said it during his Facebook live appearance last night; I'll see if I can dig up the video clip.
posted by nubs at 8:04 AM on February 4, 2022
1. I think it's really dumb that "10% of truck drivers" are attempting to cause chaos in the face of pretty decent scientific arguments that vaccination requirements are an important part of controlling COVID.
1a. that said, the disorganized handling of COVID and the barely-controlled Omicron wave makes me lose confidence in government measures and scientific arguments, and it likely why there is some public support for this type of action, as chaotic as it is.
1b. not to mention the Conservatives stirring up dissent, as the article describes, which makes it even harder to decide who to trust.
2. I feel like there has been a recent discovery by the public just how tenuous neoliberal capitalism actually is. The choice of so many people to quit their minimum-wage jobs is putting the profits of owners at risk, and they are freaking out. The global supply chain is under immense strain caused by truckers and labourers quitting or taking time off to recover from COVID. In this state, a "10% minority" has realized that you can significantly impact global politics and commerce by blockading one dumb little border crossing in the longest undefended (?) border in the world.
2a. Maybe the neoliberal action of destroying class identity and union politics means that their defences to class action are out of shape. As well, individuals feel free to form fluid temporary alliances with causes that they identify with at the moment, and it's harder for neoliberalism to react against fast-moving fluid alliances than slow-moving but gigantic union blocks.
posted by sixohsix at 8:06 AM on February 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
1a. that said, the disorganized handling of COVID and the barely-controlled Omicron wave makes me lose confidence in government measures and scientific arguments, and it likely why there is some public support for this type of action, as chaotic as it is.
1b. not to mention the Conservatives stirring up dissent, as the article describes, which makes it even harder to decide who to trust.
2. I feel like there has been a recent discovery by the public just how tenuous neoliberal capitalism actually is. The choice of so many people to quit their minimum-wage jobs is putting the profits of owners at risk, and they are freaking out. The global supply chain is under immense strain caused by truckers and labourers quitting or taking time off to recover from COVID. In this state, a "10% minority" has realized that you can significantly impact global politics and commerce by blockading one dumb little border crossing in the longest undefended (?) border in the world.
2a. Maybe the neoliberal action of destroying class identity and union politics means that their defences to class action are out of shape. As well, individuals feel free to form fluid temporary alliances with causes that they identify with at the moment, and it's harder for neoliberalism to react against fast-moving fluid alliances than slow-moving but gigantic union blocks.
posted by sixohsix at 8:06 AM on February 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
It is wild* reading people's reactions to people who are disabled/immuno-compromised saying that they still have a greater risk of serious illness or death without some sort of vaccine system.
* "I'm sorry about x but honestly, that will be a risk you will have to assume"
* "You getting COVID is just going to happen"
* "We can't stop normalcy for outliers who have x"
Etc.
I mean, there's ableist garbage and then a huge chunk of society is okay with disabled people dying garbage.
*heartbreaking
posted by Kitteh at 8:07 AM on February 4, 2022 [47 favorites]
* "I'm sorry about x but honestly, that will be a risk you will have to assume"
* "You getting COVID is just going to happen"
* "We can't stop normalcy for outliers who have x"
Etc.
I mean, there's ableist garbage and then a huge chunk of society is okay with disabled people dying garbage.
*heartbreaking
posted by Kitteh at 8:07 AM on February 4, 2022 [47 favorites]
The same noises about dropping the passports are coming from Queen's Park. I am so tired.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:04 AM on February 4 [+] [!]
They had been itching to drop them anyway. The whole concept was anathema to the current provincial government (this is also true for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba), but they had to do it to spark vaccine uptake and try to get economic activity in restaurants/theatres/etc. going again.
posted by The Notorious SRD at 8:16 AM on February 4, 2022
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:04 AM on February 4 [+] [!]
They had been itching to drop them anyway. The whole concept was anathema to the current provincial government (this is also true for Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba), but they had to do it to spark vaccine uptake and try to get economic activity in restaurants/theatres/etc. going again.
posted by The Notorious SRD at 8:16 AM on February 4, 2022
The town of Shelby (just south of the Montana/Alberta border) is getting a boost in business from stuck truckers - they appreciate the business, but don't seem too excited about the reason.
posted by davidmsc at 8:20 AM on February 4, 2022
posted by davidmsc at 8:20 AM on February 4, 2022
I'm still confused as to why they don't just revoke their CDLs for "hazardous behavior while in control of a motor vehicle". Poof, livelihood gone in a puff of smoke.
"Pour encourager les autres" and all that.
posted by aramaic at 8:27 AM on February 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
"Pour encourager les autres" and all that.
posted by aramaic at 8:27 AM on February 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
"The same noises about dropping the passports are coming from Queen's Park. I am so tired."
Doing the right thing should be its own reward, but boy is it ever demoralizing to see the bullies win.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:31 AM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Doing the right thing should be its own reward, but boy is it ever demoralizing to see the bullies win.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:31 AM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
If any of us needed further proof, I can't think of a recent example of greater hypocrisy.. People will count any number of angels on the head of a pin if it means they can rationalize something terrible, and proceed to willfully ignore the (waves hands around) if it poses the slightest inconvenience to them.
Protests that risk impeding resource extraction? Send in the SWAT
Blatant terrorism that advances my barely concealed preference? Concede, if not openly support
posted by elkevelvet at 8:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
Protests that risk impeding resource extraction? Send in the SWAT
Blatant terrorism that advances my barely concealed preference? Concede, if not openly support
posted by elkevelvet at 8:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
I mean, there's ableist garbage and then a huge chunk of society is okay with disabled people dying garbage.
Yeah, as I — someone with a genetic autoimmune disorder — have said before, despite the insistence of conservatives three years ago, it turns out that Not All Lives Matter.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:36 AM on February 4, 2022 [20 favorites]
Yeah, as I — someone with a genetic autoimmune disorder — have said before, despite the insistence of conservatives three years ago, it turns out that Not All Lives Matter.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:36 AM on February 4, 2022 [20 favorites]
with apologies to a lovely person, RIP Janis
Freedom's just another word for "I ain't gonna move"
Nothin', it ain't nothin' honey, if it ain't free
And feelin' good was easy, Lord, when we blockaded Coutts
You know feelin' good was good enough for me
Good enough for me and Jason Kenney
posted by elkevelvet at 8:47 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Freedom's just another word for "I ain't gonna move"
Nothin', it ain't nothin' honey, if it ain't free
And feelin' good was easy, Lord, when we blockaded Coutts
You know feelin' good was good enough for me
Good enough for me and Jason Kenney
posted by elkevelvet at 8:47 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Kenney has a UCP party leadership review that he needs to survive in April if he wants to keep being premier, and he's dealing with a sizable faction in his party and caucus that want him replaced. A lot of Albertans want him replaced, but the voters that matter in this case are either rabidly anti-restriction or don't mind riling up that crowd if it gets them more power.
Maybe placating them like this will let him keep his job, maybe not, but that's the reason why it's happening now. The rest of Alberta gets to pay the price. This province sucks.
posted by figurant at 9:09 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Maybe placating them like this will let him keep his job, maybe not, but that's the reason why it's happening now. The rest of Alberta gets to pay the price. This province sucks.
posted by figurant at 9:09 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
This will happen across Canada soon enough. Enough people are vaccinated now that when they inevitability get covid it won't place too much of a burden on the health system. The people who aren't already vaccinated aren't going to be getting the vaccine in the future so using the passports to pressure them is pointless and they can assume the increased risks for themselves. Of course this throws the immunocompromised under the bus and probably makes it easier for the virus to mutate even more but enough people want things to go back to normal that those concerns will be ignored.
This is, unfortunately, probably the right prediction.
1a. that said, the disorganized handling of COVID and the barely-controlled Omicron wave makes me lose confidence in government measures and scientific arguments, and it likely why there is some public support for this type of action, as chaotic as it is.
From what I could tell, there is a lot of resentment among Canadians who feel that they were told for months they needed to isolate and shut everything non-essential down, work and attend school from home, stop travelling, etc so that the scientists could work on vaccines. The vaccines came out, they went out and got jabbed as soon as possible, and yet months later they're still dealing with masks, social distancing, vaccine passports, public health screeners, and frantically negotiating with their workplaces to WFH when their kids or themselves are exposed. It's unfair, yes, and not reality-based, but deep down I think most of us knew that at some point, people were just going to call the pandemic done and start putting real pressure on the politicians to move on. I think we're almost there and once the good weather in the spring starts, there is going to be even more pressure.
The end of the pandemic restrictions is going to be a purely political decision, no matter how much the politicians claim it is science-based.
posted by fortitude25 at 9:21 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is, unfortunately, probably the right prediction.
1a. that said, the disorganized handling of COVID and the barely-controlled Omicron wave makes me lose confidence in government measures and scientific arguments, and it likely why there is some public support for this type of action, as chaotic as it is.
From what I could tell, there is a lot of resentment among Canadians who feel that they were told for months they needed to isolate and shut everything non-essential down, work and attend school from home, stop travelling, etc so that the scientists could work on vaccines. The vaccines came out, they went out and got jabbed as soon as possible, and yet months later they're still dealing with masks, social distancing, vaccine passports, public health screeners, and frantically negotiating with their workplaces to WFH when their kids or themselves are exposed. It's unfair, yes, and not reality-based, but deep down I think most of us knew that at some point, people were just going to call the pandemic done and start putting real pressure on the politicians to move on. I think we're almost there and once the good weather in the spring starts, there is going to be even more pressure.
The end of the pandemic restrictions is going to be a purely political decision, no matter how much the politicians claim it is science-based.
posted by fortitude25 at 9:21 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's unfair
I'm not sure I'd characterize the past 2+ years in terms of fairness. From my vantage, at a very local level, the municipal government enforced largely reasonable mandates as information was released. There's a lot of heavy lifting being done by some of the hindsight-heavy comments re: inevitable outcomes. Would pandemic fatigue be inevitable? What a startling revelation.
The linked article focuses on how vocal minorities can force decisions. Many of the people involved in these protests were among the groups who gathered to protest vaccines back in early 2021. A Venn diagram of people who protest public health mandates yet support restrictions on reproductive rights is, in my community, a lot of overlap. If I mistake the level of sanguinity in some comments, my bad. I'm just very angry about what I'm seeing these days. Bad is getting worse.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure I'd characterize the past 2+ years in terms of fairness. From my vantage, at a very local level, the municipal government enforced largely reasonable mandates as information was released. There's a lot of heavy lifting being done by some of the hindsight-heavy comments re: inevitable outcomes. Would pandemic fatigue be inevitable? What a startling revelation.
The linked article focuses on how vocal minorities can force decisions. Many of the people involved in these protests were among the groups who gathered to protest vaccines back in early 2021. A Venn diagram of people who protest public health mandates yet support restrictions on reproductive rights is, in my community, a lot of overlap. If I mistake the level of sanguinity in some comments, my bad. I'm just very angry about what I'm seeing these days. Bad is getting worse.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
I can't say much right now because the feelings are too thick, but I want to make the point that even if you were pig ignorant enough to think this was a good government policy, the message being sent is that a province of four million people is being dictated to by 50 truck drivers with a grievance, and that's okay. What a terrible precedent.
Apparently Kenney thought the principle that you don't negotiate with terrorists means you're supposed to cave in to them.
posted by Superilla at 9:44 AM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Apparently Kenney thought the principle that you don't negotiate with terrorists means you're supposed to cave in to them.
posted by Superilla at 9:44 AM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
A Venn diagram of people who protest public health mandates yet support restrictions on reproductive rights is, in my community, a lot of overlap.
"Pro-life" on a prenatal basis only.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:01 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Pro-life" on a prenatal basis only.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:01 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Word has gone out about a counter-protest / worker protection brigade on hospital row in Toronto as the FluTruxKlan will descend on Queen's Park this weekend. I am not ... optimistic ... this will remain peaceful.
TPS have already announced they’re closing the streets around hospital row. I predict they kettle the fuck out of the antis to protect the kkkonvoy.
posted by rodlymight at 10:07 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
TPS have already announced they’re closing the streets around hospital row. I predict they kettle the fuck out of the antis to protect the kkkonvoy.
posted by rodlymight at 10:07 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Same deal in Saskatchewan. They are also highly restricting PCR testing & there are murmmers about the mask mandate being gone soon as well. We don't have a similar protest/blockade, though our premier has openly supported the trucker protest in a letter where he also stated that vaccines do not reduce transmission of Covid (SIGH). Our hospitalizations are still going up daily & our medical system is already overwhelmed.
It is so, so frustrating to have to continuously watch decisions being made that directly refute data and scientific evidence. Instead, they appear to be based on political pressure from right wing sections of the population and general covid fatigue. We are all fucking tired of Covid, yes, but basing public health policy on "being tired of Covid" is ridiculous.
posted by DTMFA at 10:11 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
It is so, so frustrating to have to continuously watch decisions being made that directly refute data and scientific evidence. Instead, they appear to be based on political pressure from right wing sections of the population and general covid fatigue. We are all fucking tired of Covid, yes, but basing public health policy on "being tired of Covid" is ridiculous.
posted by DTMFA at 10:11 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
TPS have already announced they’re closing the streets around hospital row. I predict they kettle the fuck out of the antis to protect the kkkonvoy.
As lots of people have pointed out, the pivot from "clap to health for care workers" to "don't look like one to avoid being murdered in the street" was remarkably quick.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:14 AM on February 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
As lots of people have pointed out, the pivot from "clap to health for care workers" to "don't look like one to avoid being murdered in the street" was remarkably quick.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:14 AM on February 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
What's most stupid about this, and why this is purely performative bullshit, is that even if truckers do get the vaccine requirements dropped in Canada, the US still won't let them in as of two weeks ago if they're unvaccinated. So what then? Are they going to continue to hold Canadians to ransom because of US policy? Demand that Trudeau do something to force the US to allow unvaccinated truckers into the country? Probably knowing these stupid fucks.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:16 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:16 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
But the prosocial motivation for a vaccine passport is substantially reduced, since the vaccines do not prevent either infection or transmission.
I dare you to go to a hospital and say that to a doctor who is functionally dead inside from burnout. They might let you live if you show enough contrition after you realize how ridiculous that statement is.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:19 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
I dare you to go to a hospital and say that to a doctor who is functionally dead inside from burnout. They might let you live if you show enough contrition after you realize how ridiculous that statement is.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:19 AM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's unfair, yes, and not reality-based, but deep down I think most of us knew that at some point, people were just going to call the pandemic done and start putting real pressure on the politicians to move on. I think we're almost there and once the good weather in the spring starts, there is going to be even more pressure.
I think the reality is so many people have been infected with Omicron and will be infected in the coming months that we will see much lower case numbers in the spring (unless Omicron BA.1 infection doesn't protect you from BA.2 or some other variant comes along). I think we're going to see a lot of "pandemic over" nonsense and all our governments are going to jump on that bandwagon, some quite gleefully of course.
Then when the next variant hits and/or immunity starts to wane, we're going to end up in a bad place, because no-one will be willing to admit that it isn't actually over. Just like the 1920 waves of the 1918 flu.
posted by ssg at 10:25 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think the reality is so many people have been infected with Omicron and will be infected in the coming months that we will see much lower case numbers in the spring (unless Omicron BA.1 infection doesn't protect you from BA.2 or some other variant comes along). I think we're going to see a lot of "pandemic over" nonsense and all our governments are going to jump on that bandwagon, some quite gleefully of course.
Then when the next variant hits and/or immunity starts to wane, we're going to end up in a bad place, because no-one will be willing to admit that it isn't actually over. Just like the 1920 waves of the 1918 flu.
posted by ssg at 10:25 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
But the prosocial motivation for a vaccine passport is substantially reduced, since the vaccines do not prevent either infection or transmission.
Totally false. Maybe you should do some reading instead of spreading this anti-vax noise in multiple threads?
If you're triple-vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine, you're only about half as likely to get infected with Omicron. Being vaccinated also reduces the likelihood you'll pass an infection on. Those factors together are significant.
And the reduction in hospitalization and ICU admission is still very good. Those are also prosocial factors, because we need to protect our hospital capacity.
posted by ssg at 10:33 AM on February 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
Totally false. Maybe you should do some reading instead of spreading this anti-vax noise in multiple threads?
If you're triple-vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine, you're only about half as likely to get infected with Omicron. Being vaccinated also reduces the likelihood you'll pass an infection on. Those factors together are significant.
And the reduction in hospitalization and ICU admission is still very good. Those are also prosocial factors, because we need to protect our hospital capacity.
posted by ssg at 10:33 AM on February 4, 2022 [26 favorites]
Just like the 1920 waves of the 1918 flu.
Schedule a parade like this one and we're all set.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:33 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Schedule a parade like this one and we're all set.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:33 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
From what I could tell, there is a lot of resentment among Canadians who feel that they were told for months they needed to isolate and shut everything non-essential down, work and attend school from home, stop travelling, etc so that the scientists could work on vaccines. The vaccines came out, they went out and got jabbed as soon as possible, and yet months later they're still dealing with masks, social distancing, vaccine passports, public health screeners, and frantically negotiating with their workplaces to WFH when their kids or themselves are exposed.
Yeah, not just Canada on that one. Unfortunately, thanks to delta/omicron, vaccines now mean you won't get covid *as bad* rather than "won't get it at all," which means we are literally never, ever safe from getting it. We really can't ever let down our guard on the masks and whatnot, no matter how exhausted everyone is.
Not that anyone's going to listen to me on that one :P But I want to smack anyone who wants those masks off NOW. Those masks let me go about my daily life without fear, thanks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:36 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah, not just Canada on that one. Unfortunately, thanks to delta/omicron, vaccines now mean you won't get covid *as bad* rather than "won't get it at all," which means we are literally never, ever safe from getting it. We really can't ever let down our guard on the masks and whatnot, no matter how exhausted everyone is.
Not that anyone's going to listen to me on that one :P But I want to smack anyone who wants those masks off NOW. Those masks let me go about my daily life without fear, thanks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:36 AM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
An observation - whenever "liberals" (or left-leaning, etc) stage demonstrations, the "conservatives" often rant on social media about the protesters not having jobs, why aren't they at work, etc. I have not seen any "left" people chiding the truckers and their supporters in such a way.
posted by davidmsc at 10:38 AM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by davidmsc at 10:38 AM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just to back ssg up, you can find that 50% number in a recent (Omicron-era) NHS report, table 2 on page 24. Three doses are still working (somewhat) against symptomatic Omicron.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:49 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:49 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Here's the clip with Kenney's statement about the municipal government act from his FB live appearance. Maybe he's just blowing smoke.
posted by nubs at 10:53 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by nubs at 10:53 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't remember a "promise" from public health officials.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:05 AM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:05 AM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is not what everyone was promised
Perhaps I'm being unfair with your comment, but that's a few comments about perceived fairness and now what we were "promised," I do not recall promises. I don't doubt some public figures may have spoke incautiously about the efficacy of the vaccination regimen? What's clear to me is that a good chunk of the population are responding like children. We've all been on the roller coaster of hope.. hope.. despair, but part of me has always been prepared for new information to come forward and change last month's expectations.
If we are honest, and we do our best to be adults, this has nothing to do with 'fairness' and so-called promises. On the one hand, I get that fatigue and frustration brings out the worst in some of us (chippy in the comments section, rude in the grocery aisle) but the linked article and much of the anger I feel, and see here, is the protests with the Confederate and Nazi flags.. the way vocal and extreme groups are deciding public policy. That is a kind of promise, too.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:07 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Perhaps I'm being unfair with your comment, but that's a few comments about perceived fairness and now what we were "promised," I do not recall promises. I don't doubt some public figures may have spoke incautiously about the efficacy of the vaccination regimen? What's clear to me is that a good chunk of the population are responding like children. We've all been on the roller coaster of hope.. hope.. despair, but part of me has always been prepared for new information to come forward and change last month's expectations.
If we are honest, and we do our best to be adults, this has nothing to do with 'fairness' and so-called promises. On the one hand, I get that fatigue and frustration brings out the worst in some of us (chippy in the comments section, rude in the grocery aisle) but the linked article and much of the anger I feel, and see here, is the protests with the Confederate and Nazi flags.. the way vocal and extreme groups are deciding public policy. That is a kind of promise, too.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:07 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
He's facing being defeated by the NDP next year. Maybe looking for a wedge issue?
posted by clawsoon at 11:08 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 11:08 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
He's facing being defeated by the NDP next year. Maybe looking for a wedge issue?
He's facing being ousted by his own party in a matter of weeks.
posted by nubs at 11:12 AM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
He's facing being ousted by his own party in a matter of weeks.
posted by nubs at 11:12 AM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's a pandemic! If we have to get three shots when we initially thought we might have to get two, who cares? If we have to get more shots in the future, again who cares? We have flu shots every year, we have all kinds of vaccines that come in three-shot series or require boosters. Whatever series of shots we have to get to protect ourselves from the dangerous virus that is mutating rapidly, let's get them. Whining about it doesn't change anything.
posted by ssg at 11:13 AM on February 4, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by ssg at 11:13 AM on February 4, 2022 [20 favorites]
He's facing being defeated by the NDP next year. Maybe looking for a wedge issue?
Kenney: Okay, folks are fed up with restrictions. Let's campaign on that!
Junior advisor: Erm, my gran is undergoing chemo. ‘Fraid I’m going to have to wear a mask, and ask everyone who isn’t vaxxed and masked to stay away from me.
Kenney: I find your lack of faith disturbing [/vader voice]
posted by No Robots at 11:15 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Kenney: Okay, folks are fed up with restrictions. Let's campaign on that!
Junior advisor: Erm, my gran is undergoing chemo. ‘Fraid I’m going to have to wear a mask, and ask everyone who isn’t vaxxed and masked to stay away from me.
Kenney: I find your lack of faith disturbing [/vader voice]
posted by No Robots at 11:15 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is not what everyone was promised when the shots were originally rolled out a year ago.
I've heard this a lot and I don't know how to respond. Sorry the virus didn't take our feelings into consideration when it mutated? Sorry that research and clinical scientists don't have crystal balls? No one promised us anything - people are doing the best they can.
posted by 1adam12 at 11:17 AM on February 4, 2022 [29 favorites]
I've heard this a lot and I don't know how to respond. Sorry the virus didn't take our feelings into consideration when it mutated? Sorry that research and clinical scientists don't have crystal balls? No one promised us anything - people are doing the best they can.
posted by 1adam12 at 11:17 AM on February 4, 2022 [29 favorites]
the disorganized handling of COVID and the barely-controlled Omicron wave makes me lose confidence in government measures and scientific arguments, and it likely why there is some public support for this type of action, as chaotic as it is.
I don't know that Omicron was controllable without total Chinese style lockdowns at first sign of an infection + quasi total border closing and enforced quarantine. And no that would not fly here.
Of course this throws the immunocompromised under the bus and probably makes it easier for the virus to mutate even more but enough people want things to go back to normal that those concerns will be ignored.
We're kinda victims of the vaccine success. Works well enough that most people who get it don't suffer too much, so it looks like covid is not a big deal anymore (it still is, for health care personel). After 2 years everybody is on edge, tired and support behind some of the measures is eroding fast.
I have no idea how we'll protect immunocompromised people they can't stay indoor forever, free N100 respirators ? At some point if we'll lose control of the majority of people behavior maybe it's a better strategy to do tight defense around those who need it?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:28 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know that Omicron was controllable without total Chinese style lockdowns at first sign of an infection + quasi total border closing and enforced quarantine. And no that would not fly here.
Of course this throws the immunocompromised under the bus and probably makes it easier for the virus to mutate even more but enough people want things to go back to normal that those concerns will be ignored.
We're kinda victims of the vaccine success. Works well enough that most people who get it don't suffer too much, so it looks like covid is not a big deal anymore (it still is, for health care personel). After 2 years everybody is on edge, tired and support behind some of the measures is eroding fast.
I have no idea how we'll protect immunocompromised people they can't stay indoor forever, free N100 respirators ? At some point if we'll lose control of the majority of people behavior maybe it's a better strategy to do tight defense around those who need it?
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:28 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
We really can't ever let down our guard on the masks and whatnot
Myself - I will keep masking during cold/flu season - it has been wonderful not having had a single cold/flu over the last 2-years. In many other parts of the world, this is "just what you do" and completely accepted.
posted by rozcakj at 11:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
Myself - I will keep masking during cold/flu season - it has been wonderful not having had a single cold/flu over the last 2-years. In many other parts of the world, this is "just what you do" and completely accepted.
posted by rozcakj at 11:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is not what everyone was promised when the shots were originally rolled out a year ago.
It's not about promises. It's about decisions being made based on new data that emerges over time. That's science in action. Frustrating? Sure it is. But science that doesn't revise conclusions and recommendations based on new data ain't...science.
Otherwise we'd still be treating syphilis with mercury.
And then what - more boosters? Annual or bi-annual shots?
Annual shots for flu are a thing to deal with novel/predominant strains in that season. Boosters are very much a thing for tetanus, MMR, chicken pox, and other infectious diseases.
Further boosters (likely) or annual vaccines for COVID, should it come to that, don't seem wildly unreasonable as a public health measure in the face of a disease that's killed nearly 6 million people in two years.
Andrew Morris' latest newsletter (Email #81: The “I’m Done …” Issue) is a roundup of what he thinks is and isn't reasonable (based on his work as an infectious diseases expert and what we know right now) around "living with it."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's not about promises. It's about decisions being made based on new data that emerges over time. That's science in action. Frustrating? Sure it is. But science that doesn't revise conclusions and recommendations based on new data ain't...science.
Otherwise we'd still be treating syphilis with mercury.
And then what - more boosters? Annual or bi-annual shots?
Annual shots for flu are a thing to deal with novel/predominant strains in that season. Boosters are very much a thing for tetanus, MMR, chicken pox, and other infectious diseases.
Further boosters (likely) or annual vaccines for COVID, should it come to that, don't seem wildly unreasonable as a public health measure in the face of a disease that's killed nearly 6 million people in two years.
Andrew Morris' latest newsletter (Email #81: The “I’m Done …” Issue) is a roundup of what he thinks is and isn't reasonable (based on his work as an infectious diseases expert and what we know right now) around "living with it."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Insofar as there was any "promise," it was the promise that when a vaccine came out, if we all got vaccinated, it would go away.
If we should be mad at anyone, it should be anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers who shoulder the blame. Alternately, if we want to be mad at government, it should be for not pushing vaccine mandates harder and sooner so that we got the pandemic under control.
Being mad at scientists and government for acknowledging that we are still in a pandemic is about the only thing that isn't a break of an implicit promise.
posted by explosion at 11:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
If we should be mad at anyone, it should be anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers who shoulder the blame. Alternately, if we want to be mad at government, it should be for not pushing vaccine mandates harder and sooner so that we got the pandemic under control.
Being mad at scientists and government for acknowledging that we are still in a pandemic is about the only thing that isn't a break of an implicit promise.
posted by explosion at 11:35 AM on February 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
It probably is cheaper to give free PPE and air circulators to people who need it but boy does that put a large burden on a group of people that are already shouldering a lot. I guess it's them sacrificing themselves for the greater good instead of the rest of us doing what it takes to protect our most vulnerable. I know what the end-game of that looks like and it isn't pretty because there are always more people that can be sacrificed for the greater good.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:37 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:37 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's a pandemic! If we have to get three shots when we initially thought we might have to get two, who cares? If we have to get more shots in the future, again who cares? We have flu shots every year, we have all kinds of vaccines that come in three-shot series or require boosters. Whatever series of shots we have to get to protect ourselves from the dangerous virus that is mutating rapidly, let's get them. Whining about it doesn't change anything.
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
You hate gym & restaurants, and entertainment being, closed, I get that. Espcially if that's your job and you've got your savings invested in it, totally get it.
You hate masks? I mean they're not super comfortable, and they're a bit awkward sometimes. But they prevent people from being sick, so get over it.
You're outraged that you need to get another vaccine??!?!?!??!?!?! WTF. It's free, doesn't take a long time. It's totally passive afterwards. It's the easiest thing you can do to help stop the epidemic.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:40 AM on February 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
You hate gym & restaurants, and entertainment being, closed, I get that. Espcially if that's your job and you've got your savings invested in it, totally get it.
You hate masks? I mean they're not super comfortable, and they're a bit awkward sometimes. But they prevent people from being sick, so get over it.
You're outraged that you need to get another vaccine??!?!?!??!?!?! WTF. It's free, doesn't take a long time. It's totally passive afterwards. It's the easiest thing you can do to help stop the epidemic.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:40 AM on February 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
Whatever series of shots we have to get to protect ourselves from the dangerous virus that is mutating rapidly, let's get them. Whining about it doesn't change anything.
One thing I just cannot get over is how many adults seem to engage in wishful or magical thinking. As far as I can tell, the reasoning process seems to be: "I am tired of masking and the existence of COVID and I want the pandemic to be over. Therefore, I am going to demand masking regulations, vaccine mandates, and other restrictions be lifted. That way, the pandemic really will be over." REALITY DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:40 AM on February 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
One thing I just cannot get over is how many adults seem to engage in wishful or magical thinking. As far as I can tell, the reasoning process seems to be: "I am tired of masking and the existence of COVID and I want the pandemic to be over. Therefore, I am going to demand masking regulations, vaccine mandates, and other restrictions be lifted. That way, the pandemic really will be over." REALITY DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:40 AM on February 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
Many Canadians (as well as people all over the world) are annoyed about this.
And? What exactly is your point? I get that you feel "disappointed" but you know no one wants a pandemic or any of the health measures, right? You know a lot of us would agree that various governments' roll out of these measures have been inconsistent, confusing and neglectful at times but, seriously, if you know of another option that doesn't involve allowing hundreds, if not thousands, to die or deal with endless health issues for the rest of their lives or to see hospitals so overwhelmed with patients that have to send them to other provinces we are all ears. Unless you think it is some kind of conspiracy to impose a world government or that the virus is no big deal then... I don't know what to say to you.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:43 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
And? What exactly is your point? I get that you feel "disappointed" but you know no one wants a pandemic or any of the health measures, right? You know a lot of us would agree that various governments' roll out of these measures have been inconsistent, confusing and neglectful at times but, seriously, if you know of another option that doesn't involve allowing hundreds, if not thousands, to die or deal with endless health issues for the rest of their lives or to see hospitals so overwhelmed with patients that have to send them to other provinces we are all ears. Unless you think it is some kind of conspiracy to impose a world government or that the virus is no big deal then... I don't know what to say to you.
posted by Ashwagandha at 11:43 AM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
One thing I just cannot get over is how many adults seem to engage in wishful or magical thinking. As far as I can tell, the reasoning process seems to be: "I am tired of masking and the existence of COVID and I want the pandemic to be over. Therefore, I am going to demand masking regulations, vaccine mandates, and other restrictions be lifted. That way, the pandemic really will be over." REALITY DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY
Yeah seriously, my toddler is more reasonable than that. She's also a freaking trooper when it comes to vaccines, took the flu one with a smile and was actually excited! She keeps asking when she'll get her COVID vaccine. We didn't really explain it her but she kinda understood that it was thing cause it was such a conversation item this year.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:43 AM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah seriously, my toddler is more reasonable than that. She's also a freaking trooper when it comes to vaccines, took the flu one with a smile and was actually excited! She keeps asking when she'll get her COVID vaccine. We didn't really explain it her but she kinda understood that it was thing cause it was such a conversation item this year.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:43 AM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Promises are a load of crap. Nobody can really "promise" to do such-and-such when things may change on them later on. No politician can end the pandemic, and people break their marital promises to stay together until death do they part all the time once things change enough to make the marriage no longer viable. Things change and they make promises something that you can't keep. Promises are bullshit.
Yeah, I thought I'd be free once I was vaccinated. I'm disappointed/angry/etc. that that's not the case. But that wasn't a case of "they promised we'd all be fine," shit changed.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:51 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I thought I'd be free once I was vaccinated. I'm disappointed/angry/etc. that that's not the case. But that wasn't a case of "they promised we'd all be fine," shit changed.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:51 AM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have not seen any "left" people chiding the truckers and their supporters in such a way.
It’s possible we are adults and have discerned that not everyone works Monday to Friday, 9 to 5. This is an insight denied to many conservatives I know (even if they they themselves work a fluid variety of shifts). I know someone who occasionally has cause to visit a city of several million nearby and she is mystified how there are people on the streets walking around at 2:45 p.m. on a Wednesday. “Are they all unemployed?!?”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:54 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
It’s possible we are adults and have discerned that not everyone works Monday to Friday, 9 to 5. This is an insight denied to many conservatives I know (even if they they themselves work a fluid variety of shifts). I know someone who occasionally has cause to visit a city of several million nearby and she is mystified how there are people on the streets walking around at 2:45 p.m. on a Wednesday. “Are they all unemployed?!?”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:54 AM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wishful thinking is right. Not one of these anti-vax mandate nutters can articulate anything sane in lieu of restrictions. It's all word salad and racism and insane levels of denial.
posted by Kitteh at 12:18 PM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:18 PM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Northbound travel through Sweet Grass reopened, but vaccine protest trucks on, Independent Record (Helena, MT), Seaborn Larson, Feb 2, 2022:
…In Montana, a group of 50 to 75 people arrived at the border Saturday in a show of solidarity with the Canadian truck drivers.posted by cenoxo at 12:25 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
T.J. Wanken, a farmer from Toole County who drove up to Sweet Grass [Wikipedia] to show support for the protest, said Montana's contribution to the demonstration was about "as friendly as can be," and only lasted the weekend.
"There was like 50 people on the bridge right before Canada with flags," Wanken said. "There was a little barbeque in the gas station parking lot. It was just some friendly folks showing support for the Canadian side."
…
The protest has drawn international coverage, and the attention has been exploited by those who traffic in misinformation. In Ottawa, Nazi symbols have appeared among the groups of protestors.
…
Wanken, the Toole County farmer, said rumors have been bountiful on Facebook. One page said officials on the border were cutting protesters off from food on the Montana side of the border. He got a case of water and drove up to the border only to find nothing of the sort was going on. When he first heard of the protest days earlier, social media had told him to expect thousands of trucks from all over the U.S., especially from states with more stringent vaccine mandates, like California.
"Nothing like that ever materialized," he said.
T.J. Wanken, a farmer from Toole County
OH COME ON.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:31 PM on February 4, 2022 [32 favorites]
OH COME ON.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:31 PM on February 4, 2022 [32 favorites]
I wish we could mandate vaccines and distribute them worldwide. That being said, I’m also seeing individuals on the “left” attacking public health officials who are, in good faith, trying to balance competing considerations of benefits, burdens, and harms by calling for off ramps to NPIs. They may or may not be correct, but the attacks and threats upon their characters, careers, and families are disgusting. It seems to me like both extremes in this debate have lost touched with reality and aren’t willing to budge from their positions or accept new evidence.
Vaccine passes are the last restrictions I’d drop, though, but then again because of my education and cultural background vaccine access and hesitancy isn’t an issue for me.
In my area officials have been reluctant to impose measures like vaccine passes because of vaccine equity.
posted by eagles123 at 12:34 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Vaccine passes are the last restrictions I’d drop, though, but then again because of my education and cultural background vaccine access and hesitancy isn’t an issue for me.
In my area officials have been reluctant to impose measures like vaccine passes because of vaccine equity.
posted by eagles123 at 12:34 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm confused about this "promise." When I got my shots, nobody said "you're 100% protected, good to go!" Never once.
posted by zenzenobia at 12:47 PM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by zenzenobia at 12:47 PM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
He's clearly someone who works with his hands.T.J. Wanken, a farmer from Toole CountyOH COME ON.
posted by pulposus at 12:51 PM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Wishful thinking is right. Not one of these anti-vax mandate nutters can articulate anything sane in lieu of restrictions. It's all word salad and racism and insane levels of denial.
Some journalists around did some digging on people who were leading the charge against the vaccines, various mandates, and protection measures. At least at our local level, there's a HUGE overlap with the anti-immigrant/anti-progressive/anti-environmental crowd. If this thing goes away it's going to be something else.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:07 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Some journalists around did some digging on people who were leading the charge against the vaccines, various mandates, and protection measures. At least at our local level, there's a HUGE overlap with the anti-immigrant/anti-progressive/anti-environmental crowd. If this thing goes away it's going to be something else.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:07 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here's your "Freedom Convoy" right here.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:09 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 1:09 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think a lot of folks are being uncharitable over the use of the word "promise."
Society has a lot of promises that, like this one, are implicit and all too readily broken:
* Take out loans, go to college, and you'll get a job that pays well and makes those loans seem worthwhile.
* Work full-time, pay your taxes, and you'll be able to own a home and raise a family.
* Pay into social security, and you will be able to retire.
So too, was there an implicit promise "mask up, social distance, get vaccinated, and we'll see an end to this pandemic."
Nitpicking over the choice of word doesn't diminish the validity of the supreme frustration of (personally) doing all the right things and seeing no change at all.
posted by explosion at 1:12 PM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Society has a lot of promises that, like this one, are implicit and all too readily broken:
* Take out loans, go to college, and you'll get a job that pays well and makes those loans seem worthwhile.
* Work full-time, pay your taxes, and you'll be able to own a home and raise a family.
* Pay into social security, and you will be able to retire.
So too, was there an implicit promise "mask up, social distance, get vaccinated, and we'll see an end to this pandemic."
Nitpicking over the choice of word doesn't diminish the validity of the supreme frustration of (personally) doing all the right things and seeing no change at all.
posted by explosion at 1:12 PM on February 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
and seeing no change at all
are you kidding me?? I went from a lot of fear and uncertainty to catching and recovering from the virus to getting vaccinated to resuming my life. don't project your life on me. I'm not saying it has been "back to normal" but the Restrictions Exemption Program meant I could resume curling.. meet friends in the local pub.. visit friends in their home.
it's not nitpicking.. words mean things, and there was no fucking promise in my world, period.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:15 PM on February 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
are you kidding me?? I went from a lot of fear and uncertainty to catching and recovering from the virus to getting vaccinated to resuming my life. don't project your life on me. I'm not saying it has been "back to normal" but the Restrictions Exemption Program meant I could resume curling.. meet friends in the local pub.. visit friends in their home.
it's not nitpicking.. words mean things, and there was no fucking promise in my world, period.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:15 PM on February 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
Yeah I'm imagining some people in this thread telling murder victims "no one PROMISED you wouldn't get murdered..."
Justified or not, the frustration is real, and the supremely messy public health messaging has only compounded this factor. I'm not saying there was a better way to do it but I guess just resignedly pointing out that we're in relatively unprecedented times and people are responding like, well, people. Feeling like the best I can do is to extend some empathy to the people around me and hope that others will do the same.
I will say as a triple-vaxed individual I'm 100% against vaccine passports. It is truly a chilling precedent to set that in a city that is already quasi-genocidal to its Indigenous population, now the average unvaccinated Indigenous person can't sit down at a restaurant. And I'm saying this based on personal experience and publicly available data that Indigenous folks are a demographic that is lagging behind in vaccine uptake.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 1:18 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Justified or not, the frustration is real, and the supremely messy public health messaging has only compounded this factor. I'm not saying there was a better way to do it but I guess just resignedly pointing out that we're in relatively unprecedented times and people are responding like, well, people. Feeling like the best I can do is to extend some empathy to the people around me and hope that others will do the same.
I will say as a triple-vaxed individual I'm 100% against vaccine passports. It is truly a chilling precedent to set that in a city that is already quasi-genocidal to its Indigenous population, now the average unvaccinated Indigenous person can't sit down at a restaurant. And I'm saying this based on personal experience and publicly available data that Indigenous folks are a demographic that is lagging behind in vaccine uptake.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 1:18 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
have no idea how we'll protect immunocompromised people they can't stay indoor forever,
Paxlovid and long-acting prophylactic antibodies will both be available fairly widely this year, at least in the US.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:23 PM on February 4, 2022
Paxlovid and long-acting prophylactic antibodies will both be available fairly widely this year, at least in the US.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:23 PM on February 4, 2022
I will say as a triple-vaxed individual I'm 100% against vaccine passports. It is truly a chilling precedent to set that in a city that is already quasi-genocidal to its Indigenous population, now the average unvaccinated Indigenous person can't sit down at a restaurant. And I'm saying this based on personal experience and publicly available data that Indigenous folks are a demographic that is lagging behind in vaccine uptake.
I'm 100% for the passports. It has an effect in getting more people vaccinated, and getting vaccinated slows down the spread, and most importantly in unburdens the health care system. People will die or have their quality of life shot to hell because we're delaying procedures and tests because hospital are swamped with unvaccinated patients.
And since not everybody who isn't vaccinated is an anti-vaxxer, I'm also 1000% for squads going door to door and engaging in kind conversations and gently helping people who are afraid/uninformed/unable-to-go/etc get that vaccine that'll protect them and a bunch of other people indirectly.
Anti-vaxxers can fuck off and learn to cook.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:53 PM on February 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm 100% for the passports. It has an effect in getting more people vaccinated, and getting vaccinated slows down the spread, and most importantly in unburdens the health care system. People will die or have their quality of life shot to hell because we're delaying procedures and tests because hospital are swamped with unvaccinated patients.
And since not everybody who isn't vaccinated is an anti-vaxxer, I'm also 1000% for squads going door to door and engaging in kind conversations and gently helping people who are afraid/uninformed/unable-to-go/etc get that vaccine that'll protect them and a bunch of other people indirectly.
Anti-vaxxers can fuck off and learn to cook.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:53 PM on February 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
I'm coming at this from a privileged settler perspective. I grant you, opposition to vaccine passports based on historic and current oppression against Indigenous peoples in Canada is not nothing.
It's my assumption that the science of COVID-19 is sound and the vaccination program is one of the most important means of getting us past the pandemic. I'm not sure that *not having* vaccine passports/mandates will protect vulnerable and/or Indigenous populations. I can appreciate hesitancy, I can see how a history of betrayal and abuse will result in that, but it's not the face of the "end the mandate" movement, the "Freedom Convoy" movement. Not sure if you're checking those Twitter feeds, but that movement looks very white and very privileged and not at all about freedoms as we might universally appreciate that. Freedom to form GSA groups in high schools? Freedom to make medical choices re: reproduction?
posted by elkevelvet at 1:58 PM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's my assumption that the science of COVID-19 is sound and the vaccination program is one of the most important means of getting us past the pandemic. I'm not sure that *not having* vaccine passports/mandates will protect vulnerable and/or Indigenous populations. I can appreciate hesitancy, I can see how a history of betrayal and abuse will result in that, but it's not the face of the "end the mandate" movement, the "Freedom Convoy" movement. Not sure if you're checking those Twitter feeds, but that movement looks very white and very privileged and not at all about freedoms as we might universally appreciate that. Freedom to form GSA groups in high schools? Freedom to make medical choices re: reproduction?
posted by elkevelvet at 1:58 PM on February 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
seeing no change at all.
I guess it depends on one's expectations and what one considers "change". Locally hospitalisations & deaths are down (among the vaccinated), local production lines aren't being shut down as often, my kid is in school in person, my customers' businesses are largely open, the federal government extended repayment on their loan plan for businesses, after the initial wave of permanent closures of local restaurants last year I've seen re-openings and new ones spring up, many of the drug programmes and the safe injection site are operating, I am not seeing the supply chain issues in the grocery stores locally... More broadly if I was into sports I'd be happy that teams were playing, restricted film & TV production seems to be happening, border is mostly open. All those are positive changes in my opinion compared to last year. I don't have an issue with continuing to wear a mask, despite having breathing issues, because I recognise that if it even helps one person that I come in contact with it is a net win. I'm sorry some people don't see change but masks and vaccines were never going to instantly return us to a pre pandemic state. If you believe that was promised to you then you were mistaken.
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:04 PM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
I guess it depends on one's expectations and what one considers "change". Locally hospitalisations & deaths are down (among the vaccinated), local production lines aren't being shut down as often, my kid is in school in person, my customers' businesses are largely open, the federal government extended repayment on their loan plan for businesses, after the initial wave of permanent closures of local restaurants last year I've seen re-openings and new ones spring up, many of the drug programmes and the safe injection site are operating, I am not seeing the supply chain issues in the grocery stores locally... More broadly if I was into sports I'd be happy that teams were playing, restricted film & TV production seems to be happening, border is mostly open. All those are positive changes in my opinion compared to last year. I don't have an issue with continuing to wear a mask, despite having breathing issues, because I recognise that if it even helps one person that I come in contact with it is a net win. I'm sorry some people don't see change but masks and vaccines were never going to instantly return us to a pre pandemic state. If you believe that was promised to you then you were mistaken.
posted by Ashwagandha at 2:04 PM on February 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
WaterAndPixels, you seem optimistic about the trust minorities place in the federal government. I'd invite you to think about the fact that not every antivaxer belongs to this cohort that is currently dominating the media, and saying that they can all "fuck off and learn to cook" is, well, pretty crude. IN MY OWN LIFE I know several "antivaxers" who have nothing to do with these truckers and would probably get beaten up in the streets by them. And yes, these people are Indigenous, usually homeless or proximal to homelessness, mostly addicts, and their position comes from a lifetime of lived trauma, not to mention however many generations of inherited trauma. At the start of covid, local business stopped accepting cash, thereby erasing many of these individuals' participation in the economy, and now that some places have resumed accepting cash, many of these people simply cannot enter the restaurants and sit down for a warm meal. I AM NOT saying that vaccine passports are useless and I certainly vehemently disagree with whatever the truckers are campaigning for. I'm just trying to point out that this is a complex issue that is likely to leave the most vulnerable in our society out in the cold. Much like how erasing vax mandates would be disproportionately impactful to immunocompromised people! There is no perfect answer but it behooves us to treat this like the complex issue that it is.
We already know that vaccines aren't a fix-everything solution -- see the huge amount of people in this thread who are saying they're not surprised that we're still dealing with rolling lockdown protocols even after getting vaccinated -- and we can also probably assume that most people who haven't gotten vaxed yet; won't get vaxed. I think I'd prefer to see federal and provincial funds go into things like: exporting spare vaccines to the global south; air filtration infrastructure; subsidized public health to replace the burnouts/walkouts; and yeah, an educational program for the vaccines.
And elkevelvet you're right; it's pretty wildly disorienting to encounter Indigenous folks every day who have valid complaint w/r/t vaccines and vax passports and government medical intervention, and think, "well this sounds like what those truckers must be saying" and then go look at what the truckers are saying and... yikes.
This seems similar to a lot of problems we see in the states whereby minorities or afflicted parties will make some sort of genuinely pro-worker, anti-government claim, and then that'll get taken up as a rallying cry by a bunch of chuds who just see it as a blunt object to beat authority figures with (except never cops). And then the media will say "if you believe in retaining manufacturing sites in America that means you're a Republican footsoldier and also extremely racist," and thus the window shifts and shifts.
No one seems to know what to do about this but just sending a lot of good thoughts to everyone who feels confused, angry, and scared right now.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 2:10 PM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
We already know that vaccines aren't a fix-everything solution -- see the huge amount of people in this thread who are saying they're not surprised that we're still dealing with rolling lockdown protocols even after getting vaccinated -- and we can also probably assume that most people who haven't gotten vaxed yet; won't get vaxed. I think I'd prefer to see federal and provincial funds go into things like: exporting spare vaccines to the global south; air filtration infrastructure; subsidized public health to replace the burnouts/walkouts; and yeah, an educational program for the vaccines.
And elkevelvet you're right; it's pretty wildly disorienting to encounter Indigenous folks every day who have valid complaint w/r/t vaccines and vax passports and government medical intervention, and think, "well this sounds like what those truckers must be saying" and then go look at what the truckers are saying and... yikes.
This seems similar to a lot of problems we see in the states whereby minorities or afflicted parties will make some sort of genuinely pro-worker, anti-government claim, and then that'll get taken up as a rallying cry by a bunch of chuds who just see it as a blunt object to beat authority figures with (except never cops). And then the media will say "if you believe in retaining manufacturing sites in America that means you're a Republican footsoldier and also extremely racist," and thus the window shifts and shifts.
No one seems to know what to do about this but just sending a lot of good thoughts to everyone who feels confused, angry, and scared right now.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 2:10 PM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Some people want to have a good faith discussion about vaccine passports. That's fair. But as an Albertan, the takeaway from this story for me is that a fringe group of Albertans want to LARP Jan 6th and our premier seems to intend to respond by giving them what they want. It's very disturbing.
posted by kitcat at 2:10 PM on February 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 2:10 PM on February 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
I'm not sure that *not having* vaccine passports/mandates will protect vulnerable and/or Indigenous populations.
There are a lot problematics in getting some populations vaccinated, for example homeless people usually don't go on websites to book appointments, you have to go to them.
I can appreciate hesitancy, I can see how a history of betrayal and abuse will result in that, but it's not the face of the "end the mandate" movement, the "Freedom Convoy" movement. Not sure if you're checking those Twitter feeds, but that movement looks very white and very privileged and not at all about freedoms as we might universally appreciate that. Freedom to form GSA groups in high schools? Freedom to make medical choices re: reproduction?
Those guys have fuck all to do with any form of kindness to indigenous people, or homeless people or other vulnerable people. But I don't think anybody here was implying that.
Also I know that in Quebec, Indigenous people were at a 80% vaccination rate (2 dose) at the end of June, this might be different elsewhere in Canada because each community is different, but to me it seems they're on board with this like almost everybody else. I know a neighbor who got his dose early since he's from Kitcisakik, was like "fuck yeah vaccine!" last year.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:13 PM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
There are a lot problematics in getting some populations vaccinated, for example homeless people usually don't go on websites to book appointments, you have to go to them.
I can appreciate hesitancy, I can see how a history of betrayal and abuse will result in that, but it's not the face of the "end the mandate" movement, the "Freedom Convoy" movement. Not sure if you're checking those Twitter feeds, but that movement looks very white and very privileged and not at all about freedoms as we might universally appreciate that. Freedom to form GSA groups in high schools? Freedom to make medical choices re: reproduction?
Those guys have fuck all to do with any form of kindness to indigenous people, or homeless people or other vulnerable people. But I don't think anybody here was implying that.
Also I know that in Quebec, Indigenous people were at a 80% vaccination rate (2 dose) at the end of June, this might be different elsewhere in Canada because each community is different, but to me it seems they're on board with this like almost everybody else. I know a neighbor who got his dose early since he's from Kitcisakik, was like "fuck yeah vaccine!" last year.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:13 PM on February 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
tale as old as time, when a group in a relative position of power and privilege co-opts legitimate grievances expressed by those addressing injustice/inequity
the display of power/victimhood in this convoy situation is giving me whiplash
posted by elkevelvet at 2:32 PM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
the display of power/victimhood in this convoy situation is giving me whiplash
posted by elkevelvet at 2:32 PM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Parents banging on classroom door and chanting in Alberta high school.
posted by No Robots at 2:44 PM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by No Robots at 2:44 PM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Freedom Convoy GoFundMe has been shut down
posted by rodlymight at 3:22 PM on February 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 3:22 PM on February 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
^ this is the only positive news to come of the past few days
posted by elkevelvet at 3:27 PM on February 4, 2022
posted by elkevelvet at 3:27 PM on February 4, 2022
There's this other thingy...
Lawsuit filed against convoy organizers, seeking damages on behalf of downtown Ottawa residents
The statement of claim names Chris Barber, Benjamin Ditcher, Tamara Lich and Patrick King as convoy organizers, but also leaves the opportunity for up to 60 other defendants to be named, should the drivers of the semi-trucks who are parked downtown and blasting their horns in protest, be identified.
The court filing alleges that the horns on semi-trucks emit noise in the range of 100 to 150 decibels and are not meant to be used for longer than a few seconds because the sound levels are dangerous and can cause permanent damage to the human ear.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:59 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Lawsuit filed against convoy organizers, seeking damages on behalf of downtown Ottawa residents
The statement of claim names Chris Barber, Benjamin Ditcher, Tamara Lich and Patrick King as convoy organizers, but also leaves the opportunity for up to 60 other defendants to be named, should the drivers of the semi-trucks who are parked downtown and blasting their horns in protest, be identified.
The court filing alleges that the horns on semi-trucks emit noise in the range of 100 to 150 decibels and are not meant to be used for longer than a few seconds because the sound levels are dangerous and can cause permanent damage to the human ear.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:59 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
WaterAndPixels, you seem optimistic about the trust minorities place in the federal government.
There's trust and there's trust, its not like it's something asked exclusively to minorities which would be suspicious, for once we're all in the same boat. But this is why this work needs to be done on a "local" level by people they could trust.
I'd invite you to think about the fact that not every antivaxer belongs to this cohort that is currently dominating the media, and saying that they can all "fuck off and learn to cook" is, well, pretty crude.
I actually think about this a lot, which is why I mentioned that we need to do the work, on a local level, to address the relevant issues, which will be different community from community. The goal is not to ostracize and shame, it is to protect them and protect their communities.
IN MY OWN LIFE I know several "antivaxers" who have nothing to do with these truckers and would probably get beaten up in the streets by them. And yes, these people are Indigenous, usually homeless or proximal to homelessness, mostly addicts, and their position comes from a lifetime of lived trauma, not to mention however many generations of inherited trauma.
Vaccine hesitant people are not anti-vaxxers. There's a difference.
I'm just trying to point out that this is a complex issue that is likely to leave the most vulnerable in our society out in the cold. Much like how erasing vax mandates would be disproportionately impactful to immunocompromised people! There is no perfect answer but it behooves us to treat this like the complex issue that it is.
It is complex, no doubt about that, and we're seriously lacking in perfect solutions that would fix everything with no bad side effects. Which is why we'll have to settle on imperfect solutions. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best to identify the blind spot and unforeseen impacts and work on mitigating those.
Also the higher the vaccination coverage is, the easier it to carve out some exceptions to mitigate the impact on those with real issues regarding the vaccine (mental health issues are real issues).
subsidized public health to replace the burnouts/walkouts
We've thrown literally billions at this, in the end there's no trained personnel to replace the nurse/doctors who are quitting. I don't think any amount of money will get you out of a burn out.
Anyway, I don't think the passport is magic, but the most vocal opponents are opposing it for all the wrong reasons... so yeah... they can learn to cook.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:08 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
There's trust and there's trust, its not like it's something asked exclusively to minorities which would be suspicious, for once we're all in the same boat. But this is why this work needs to be done on a "local" level by people they could trust.
I'd invite you to think about the fact that not every antivaxer belongs to this cohort that is currently dominating the media, and saying that they can all "fuck off and learn to cook" is, well, pretty crude.
I actually think about this a lot, which is why I mentioned that we need to do the work, on a local level, to address the relevant issues, which will be different community from community. The goal is not to ostracize and shame, it is to protect them and protect their communities.
IN MY OWN LIFE I know several "antivaxers" who have nothing to do with these truckers and would probably get beaten up in the streets by them. And yes, these people are Indigenous, usually homeless or proximal to homelessness, mostly addicts, and their position comes from a lifetime of lived trauma, not to mention however many generations of inherited trauma.
Vaccine hesitant people are not anti-vaxxers. There's a difference.
I'm just trying to point out that this is a complex issue that is likely to leave the most vulnerable in our society out in the cold. Much like how erasing vax mandates would be disproportionately impactful to immunocompromised people! There is no perfect answer but it behooves us to treat this like the complex issue that it is.
It is complex, no doubt about that, and we're seriously lacking in perfect solutions that would fix everything with no bad side effects. Which is why we'll have to settle on imperfect solutions. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best to identify the blind spot and unforeseen impacts and work on mitigating those.
Also the higher the vaccination coverage is, the easier it to carve out some exceptions to mitigate the impact on those with real issues regarding the vaccine (mental health issues are real issues).
subsidized public health to replace the burnouts/walkouts
We've thrown literally billions at this, in the end there's no trained personnel to replace the nurse/doctors who are quitting. I don't think any amount of money will get you out of a burn out.
Anyway, I don't think the passport is magic, but the most vocal opponents are opposing it for all the wrong reasons... so yeah... they can learn to cook.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:08 PM on February 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here in South Africa our government has just changed regulations. Now, you don't need to isolate if you tested positive, unless you have symptoms. Not sure how that works with asymptomatic cases? Also, social distancing regulations in schools have effectively been stopped. We are getting booster shots now, but it's quite difficult to work out where and how, very little information about it.
The vibe I get from people around here is very much "it's over, we are going back to normal".
posted by Zumbador at 9:00 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
The vibe I get from people around here is very much "it's over, we are going back to normal".
posted by Zumbador at 9:00 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Seems like Kenney has his priorities straight.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:26 PM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:26 PM on February 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also, an admittedly dark silver lining of living through interesting times is learning a lot about how other people experience reality.
During the day zero water crisis here in Cape Town, I lost, forever, the idea that people are rational when it comes to their own needs.
Protests, by otherwise sane seeming people, that water use limits impinge on their human rights.
Conspiracy theories that there really isn't a water crisis, when you could literally drive a few kilometers and see the empty dam for yourself.
Oh, and the beautifully nutty solutions proposed with utter confidence, my favourite being sending container ships, altered to be big empty tanks, out to sea to where it's raining and just let them fill up.
I don't know if we'll ever have vaccine passports or a vaccine mandate here. But it won't be popular, that's for sure
posted by Zumbador at 9:27 PM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
During the day zero water crisis here in Cape Town, I lost, forever, the idea that people are rational when it comes to their own needs.
Protests, by otherwise sane seeming people, that water use limits impinge on their human rights.
Conspiracy theories that there really isn't a water crisis, when you could literally drive a few kilometers and see the empty dam for yourself.
Oh, and the beautifully nutty solutions proposed with utter confidence, my favourite being sending container ships, altered to be big empty tanks, out to sea to where it's raining and just let them fill up.
I don't know if we'll ever have vaccine passports or a vaccine mandate here. But it won't be popular, that's for sure
posted by Zumbador at 9:27 PM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Zumbador, that is really interesting. Thank you for sharing that about what happened in South Africa during the water crisis. Seems like those are the constants in reactions to crisis: 1) people who are enraged by being asked to limit their own [whatever] for the greater good 2) denial and conspiracy theories 3) wacky non-solutions that are completely impractical.
I just finished listening to an interview with the guy who wrote “Don’t Look Up” and the interviewer pointed out he’d written it pre-pandemic and asked him how it felt to then watch real life mirror the events in the movie (eg denial, conspiracy theories, big corporations taking advantage and exploiting people).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:01 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I just finished listening to an interview with the guy who wrote “Don’t Look Up” and the interviewer pointed out he’d written it pre-pandemic and asked him how it felt to then watch real life mirror the events in the movie (eg denial, conspiracy theories, big corporations taking advantage and exploiting people).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:01 PM on February 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I will say as a triple-vaxed individual I'm 100% against vaccine passports. It is truly a chilling precedent to set that in a city that is already quasi-genocidal to its Indigenous population, now the average unvaccinated Indigenous person can't sit down at a restaurant.
I can expand on this a bit. My experience (haven't looked at any stats) is from BC, though. Also, I'm not indigenous, but it is mixed in, and my mom is... well, it's complimicated-- suffice to say her brother from the same father, same mother got status.
Couple days back a Cree guy told me not to listen to anti-vacc people. He also told me people came to the shelter/co-op he stays at (note: ODs are what's killing people there) and offered boosters to everybody. So, he was boostered.
I also know another Cree guy who is deeply vacc-hesitant (despite having got Covid and ending up in hospital with blood clots). I'd say this guy's vaccine refusal boils mostly down to him personally being deeply anti-drug/anti-alcohol. He feels taking the vaccine will betray those principles. Hesitancy due to indigenous history was pretty much a quickly passed over footnote (in fact, he didn't bring it up, I did) among his various arguments about why he doesn't trust the vaccine.
Thirdly, though she hasn't been able to visit since covid came, my mom is in regular contact with relatives on a reserve near Williams Lake. From what I've been told, they're quite pro-vaccine, especially for the elders and knowledge keepers. They've also gone to some effort to keep strangers off the reserve.
I realize none of this directly refers to the mandates. But I think the issue would have come up if it had actually been a serious concern.
However, it will not surprise me if I hear anti-mandate stuff next time I talk to my vacc-suspicious friend. This anti-mandate stuff just seems like the latest argument from the anti-vacc/anti-masc crowd. They seem to have finally found a song with some degree of popularity outside of their own choir.
posted by house-goblin at 12:56 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can expand on this a bit. My experience (haven't looked at any stats) is from BC, though. Also, I'm not indigenous, but it is mixed in, and my mom is... well, it's complimicated-- suffice to say her brother from the same father, same mother got status.
Couple days back a Cree guy told me not to listen to anti-vacc people. He also told me people came to the shelter/co-op he stays at (note: ODs are what's killing people there) and offered boosters to everybody. So, he was boostered.
I also know another Cree guy who is deeply vacc-hesitant (despite having got Covid and ending up in hospital with blood clots). I'd say this guy's vaccine refusal boils mostly down to him personally being deeply anti-drug/anti-alcohol. He feels taking the vaccine will betray those principles. Hesitancy due to indigenous history was pretty much a quickly passed over footnote (in fact, he didn't bring it up, I did) among his various arguments about why he doesn't trust the vaccine.
Thirdly, though she hasn't been able to visit since covid came, my mom is in regular contact with relatives on a reserve near Williams Lake. From what I've been told, they're quite pro-vaccine, especially for the elders and knowledge keepers. They've also gone to some effort to keep strangers off the reserve.
I realize none of this directly refers to the mandates. But I think the issue would have come up if it had actually been a serious concern.
However, it will not surprise me if I hear anti-mandate stuff next time I talk to my vacc-suspicious friend. This anti-mandate stuff just seems like the latest argument from the anti-vacc/anti-masc crowd. They seem to have finally found a song with some degree of popularity outside of their own choir.
posted by house-goblin at 12:56 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Kingston*, for all its size, has been remarkably good about taking the vaccine bus (no, it's a real bus!) to low income areas and shelters/street health clinics/soup kitchens to make sure the vulnerable are vaccinated. Again, there are definitely people in that cohort who won't because of reasons to be suspicious but some place are trying to rectify the imbalance.
*now give them homes or at least 24 hours shelter during bitterly cold nights plz
posted by Kitteh at 1:24 PM on February 5, 2022
*now give them homes or at least 24 hours shelter during bitterly cold nights plz
posted by Kitteh at 1:24 PM on February 5, 2022
There are a lot problematics in getting some populations vaccinated, for example homeless people usually don't go on websites to book appointments, you have to go to them.
Outreach is important, and efforts should go to that (although the resources are being sucked up by... defending from and healing the antivax crew). But yesterday, I got my booster by walking into a pharmacy in downtown Calgary and asking. Took five minutes wait after filling in the form. It's 13 minutes by free public transit (20 mins on foot) from the largest homeless shelter on the continent and it's about the 12th closest pharmacy to the shelter; it just happened to be in the same building I needed to be in for a blood test.*
Vaccine hesitant people are not anti-vaxxers. There's a difference.
A year ago, there was a difference. Six months ago, there was a difference. At some point, when given all the opportunities in the world, all the outreach we can muster, every carrot and every stick, all the evidence of billions of successful vaccinations, there's no difference between not doing something and just "hesitating" for the remainder of your natural life.
IN MY OWN LIFE I know several "antivaxers" who have nothing to do with these truckers and would probably get beaten up in the streets by them.
So I know two antivaxers. One is a family of evangelical Christians who were into homeschooling before the pandemic, and one is a progressive government worker who is into the wellness movement and was talking about GMOs before the pandemic. (Hopefully, I'm pretty sure, he's not in the wellness-to-white-supremacy pipeline.) So I can see there are people getting there from both sides.
But my social circle includes dozens of progressive public sector workers... and one family of evangelical Christians. I think it's easy to delude ourselves in progressive circles as to who the vast bulk of the antivax mob is; if we were on an offroading forum or a hockey forum instead of Metafilter, it would give a different perspective.
* Fun fact, since I'm immunocompromised, it also had the honour of being the second building I was inside in the year 2022, the only exception to the apartment building I live in. At the rate 2022 is going, I'm starting to think the third building I'm going to be inside will be the fucking airport.
posted by Superilla at 3:22 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Outreach is important, and efforts should go to that (although the resources are being sucked up by... defending from and healing the antivax crew). But yesterday, I got my booster by walking into a pharmacy in downtown Calgary and asking. Took five minutes wait after filling in the form. It's 13 minutes by free public transit (20 mins on foot) from the largest homeless shelter on the continent and it's about the 12th closest pharmacy to the shelter; it just happened to be in the same building I needed to be in for a blood test.*
Vaccine hesitant people are not anti-vaxxers. There's a difference.
A year ago, there was a difference. Six months ago, there was a difference. At some point, when given all the opportunities in the world, all the outreach we can muster, every carrot and every stick, all the evidence of billions of successful vaccinations, there's no difference between not doing something and just "hesitating" for the remainder of your natural life.
IN MY OWN LIFE I know several "antivaxers" who have nothing to do with these truckers and would probably get beaten up in the streets by them.
So I know two antivaxers. One is a family of evangelical Christians who were into homeschooling before the pandemic, and one is a progressive government worker who is into the wellness movement and was talking about GMOs before the pandemic. (Hopefully, I'm pretty sure, he's not in the wellness-to-white-supremacy pipeline.) So I can see there are people getting there from both sides.
But my social circle includes dozens of progressive public sector workers... and one family of evangelical Christians. I think it's easy to delude ourselves in progressive circles as to who the vast bulk of the antivax mob is; if we were on an offroading forum or a hockey forum instead of Metafilter, it would give a different perspective.
* Fun fact, since I'm immunocompromised, it also had the honour of being the second building I was inside in the year 2022, the only exception to the apartment building I live in. At the rate 2022 is going, I'm starting to think the third building I'm going to be inside will be the fucking airport.
posted by Superilla at 3:22 PM on February 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Outreach is important, and efforts should go to that (although the resources are being sucked up by... defending from and healing the antivax crew). But yesterday, I got my booster by walking into a pharmacy in downtown Calgary and asking. Took five minutes wait after filling in the form. It's 13 minutes by free public transit (20 mins on foot) from the largest homeless shelter on the continent and it's about the 12th closest pharmacy to the shelter; it just happened to be in the same building I needed to be in for a blood test.*
I'm not sure actual distance is the issue, some of those people just aren't organized enough to accomplish that and that's just the reality of it, also if you've barely got any money, treats of fines or vaccination passports to get into restaurants won't mean much to you. Not everybody, since homelessness has many causes, but a bunch of those people should be in a resource that help them take care of their mental health or addiction issues, but we're just not offering enough of that.
A year ago, there was a difference. Six months ago, there was a difference. At some point, when given all the opportunities in the world, all the outreach we can muster, every carrot and every stick, all the evidence of billions of successful vaccinations, there's no difference between not doing something and just "hesitating" for the remainder of your natural life.
I'm half way there with you on this, some people for various reasons of isolation/language issues/etc haven't been reached properly, some people have had all the necessary facts laid before them in manner they can comprehend and are still anti-vaxx or too lazy to go get it (don't laugh, cry, I know some of those).... those people.... can fuck off and learn to cook. (I guess it's my thing now).
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:44 PM on February 5, 2022
I'm not sure actual distance is the issue, some of those people just aren't organized enough to accomplish that and that's just the reality of it, also if you've barely got any money, treats of fines or vaccination passports to get into restaurants won't mean much to you. Not everybody, since homelessness has many causes, but a bunch of those people should be in a resource that help them take care of their mental health or addiction issues, but we're just not offering enough of that.
A year ago, there was a difference. Six months ago, there was a difference. At some point, when given all the opportunities in the world, all the outreach we can muster, every carrot and every stick, all the evidence of billions of successful vaccinations, there's no difference between not doing something and just "hesitating" for the remainder of your natural life.
I'm half way there with you on this, some people for various reasons of isolation/language issues/etc haven't been reached properly, some people have had all the necessary facts laid before them in manner they can comprehend and are still anti-vaxx or too lazy to go get it (don't laugh, cry, I know some of those).... those people.... can fuck off and learn to cook. (I guess it's my thing now).
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:44 PM on February 5, 2022
So we dropped the passports at midnight last night. The announcement came like 7 hours before that. My morning has been spent talking with my staff teams about what this means, what changes we need to make, and doing some reassurance for those anxious about it, and explaining that it is just the passports, not the masking. Though the masking starts dropping off fairly aggressively - by Monday, it won't be in force with kids under 12 anymore, anywhere, and for everyone by March 1.
I'm kind of ambivalent about the passport at this point - the passport was intended to get people vaccinated, and I kind of feel like it's done as much as it could on that front for adults, though we still need the 5-11 age group to really pick up. What I'm mad/frustrated about is (a) the lack of notice; even a days warning would have meant we could have a plan in place to talk with our staff about what this all means and whats next; (b) the lack of any meaningful connection this appears to have with actual data about what's happening with infection and hospitalization rates; (c) the fact that under 5 can't be vaccinated yet, and 5-11 vax rates are low, and we're getting rid of masks right away for that age group; (d) the fact that this appears to be driven completely by the trucker blockade at Coutts (which hasn't ended). One of the truckers was on the news last night complaining that being forced to wear a mask was causing his daughter to breathe in carbon monoxide. So the height of science knowledge is apparently informing our actions, and I'm pretty sure this capitulation will only cause more demands.
posted by nubs at 10:20 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of ambivalent about the passport at this point - the passport was intended to get people vaccinated, and I kind of feel like it's done as much as it could on that front for adults, though we still need the 5-11 age group to really pick up. What I'm mad/frustrated about is (a) the lack of notice; even a days warning would have meant we could have a plan in place to talk with our staff about what this all means and whats next; (b) the lack of any meaningful connection this appears to have with actual data about what's happening with infection and hospitalization rates; (c) the fact that under 5 can't be vaccinated yet, and 5-11 vax rates are low, and we're getting rid of masks right away for that age group; (d) the fact that this appears to be driven completely by the trucker blockade at Coutts (which hasn't ended). One of the truckers was on the news last night complaining that being forced to wear a mask was causing his daughter to breathe in carbon monoxide. So the height of science knowledge is apparently informing our actions, and I'm pretty sure this capitulation will only cause more demands.
posted by nubs at 10:20 AM on February 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
« Older Thank you. Yes. | Commanders owner Daniel Snyder has say in whether... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:57 AM on February 4, 2022 [6 favorites]