Piano’s Darkest Secret
March 6, 2022 8:11 AM Subscribe
One man's search for a suitable keyboard. Not all hands are alike, which is a problem for most pianists. Fortunately, Mr. Steinbuhler and the non-profit DS Standard Foundation want to help.
The organization has a petition drive to encourage the big boys to address the problem.
The organization has a petition drive to encourage the big boys to address the problem.
When Schumann Ruined His Fingers — and His Concert Career
posted by Splunge at 9:01 AM on March 6, 2022
posted by Splunge at 9:01 AM on March 6, 2022
Standardization made more sense when pianos were manufactured by hand -- there was enough variation in so many manufacturing processes that it was important if you wanted to manufacture at scale to pick a size and stick with it.
Aside from the marketing aspect, there's only marginal additional cost to vary sizes in the modern CNC age.
posted by tclark at 9:55 AM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Aside from the marketing aspect, there's only marginal additional cost to vary sizes in the modern CNC age.
posted by tclark at 9:55 AM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is fantastic. I also never knew about the existence of smaller keyboards — I guess I assumed that making them smaller would make it harder to be precise. The research, first-hand experience and the reaction of the folks in the film very effectively argues otherwise. Amazing example of how simple (if not “easy”) design decisions can make such a giant difference in accessibility and equity and what people are able to achieve.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:58 AM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 9:58 AM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Good news for tfg, his dreams of being a concert pianist can now come true.
posted by senor biggles at 10:00 AM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by senor biggles at 10:00 AM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I used to feel like my natural thumb-to-pinky spread was exactly an octave.
Now in my late 60's, I find it hard to span an octave easily. Looks like a 5.5" octave would work better.
Maybe something like the C64 overlay would work better for me.
posted by MtDewd at 12:32 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now in my late 60's, I find it hard to span an octave easily. Looks like a 5.5" octave would work better.
Maybe something like the C64 overlay would work better for me.
posted by MtDewd at 12:32 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Laukhuff, the organ parts manufacturer of the 6.0 keyboard fitted onto the Sirius piano in Stuttgart which Lionel Yu plays in the beginning of the video, is out of business.
posted by 3.2.3 at 12:38 PM on March 6, 2022
posted by 3.2.3 at 12:38 PM on March 6, 2022
...first-hand experience...
iseewhatyoudidthere.gif
posted by logicpunk at 12:41 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
iseewhatyoudidthere.gif
posted by logicpunk at 12:41 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm sitting here with my jaw hanging open. I have always struggled to play and lamented my small hands; they are small even for a woman. When I saw the female pianist weep at just holding her hands over a keyboard that was small enough to make her hands feel big, I felt her joy and pain and cried too. Another area where woman have been left as second class citizens where it almost unthinkable to manufacturers that over half the population is severely hampered by the standard.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 12:50 PM on March 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 12:50 PM on March 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
I was a pianist in my youth, pretty serious about it. I majored in piano in performing arts high school.
This idea is not practical. There is no way that most venues are going to keep three sizes of piano on hand, in condition and tuned. And once someone practices with a certain size, their muscle memory will be useless with any other size.
On preview: I'm a female and I have relatively small hands. I'm not justifying the status quo. I'm saying, this will not work. It won't work from the very beginning of a child's piano education, as recitals are an integral part of learning. No grand pianos for most kids.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 12:52 PM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
This idea is not practical. There is no way that most venues are going to keep three sizes of piano on hand, in condition and tuned. And once someone practices with a certain size, their muscle memory will be useless with any other size.
On preview: I'm a female and I have relatively small hands. I'm not justifying the status quo. I'm saying, this will not work. It won't work from the very beginning of a child's piano education, as recitals are an integral part of learning. No grand pianos for most kids.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 12:52 PM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Regular typist keyboard nerdery is expensive enough, if this takes off it will be bonkers expensive and have a community of dedicated weirdos in no time.
posted by mhoye at 1:13 PM on March 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 1:13 PM on March 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
He alludes to it, but kind of elides over sexism as one of the reasons behind this, I think.
Anyhow, I recently played a piano in someone else's home that felt... big, which made no sense. Aren't all pianos the same size? But then again, my piano is around 150 years old, so it seems possible that it could be a little bit different. However, measuring it, it is also 6.5", so who knows what was up with that other one...
posted by vernondalhart at 1:16 PM on March 6, 2022
Anyhow, I recently played a piano in someone else's home that felt... big, which made no sense. Aren't all pianos the same size? But then again, my piano is around 150 years old, so it seems possible that it could be a little bit different. However, measuring it, it is also 6.5", so who knows what was up with that other one...
posted by vernondalhart at 1:16 PM on March 6, 2022
their muscle memory will be useless with any other size.
According to the pianist in the video, no, that was not the case with his playing--he says it even improved his technique once he returned to a standard 6.5" keyboard, it was more supple and relaxed. Other instrumentalists are able to adjust scale from their primary instrument regularly, e.g., clarinetists playing E-flat soprano or B-flat bass clarinets (or even the difference between B-flat & A sopranos), or trumpet players switching from concert to piccolo trumpet, or etc. String instruments start at (much) smaller scales and grow with the student; so do tubas. So I think it would likely be an expansion of technique rather than a separate one (at least, in my experience).
However, yes, venues will not stock multiple sizes of concert-ready instruments as expensive (and expensive to maintain) as pianos. Music schools certainly could, though. And having these available for the home would be amazing, as would having (much less expensive) electronic keyboards in different sizes.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:18 PM on March 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
According to the pianist in the video, no, that was not the case with his playing--he says it even improved his technique once he returned to a standard 6.5" keyboard, it was more supple and relaxed. Other instrumentalists are able to adjust scale from their primary instrument regularly, e.g., clarinetists playing E-flat soprano or B-flat bass clarinets (or even the difference between B-flat & A sopranos), or trumpet players switching from concert to piccolo trumpet, or etc. String instruments start at (much) smaller scales and grow with the student; so do tubas. So I think it would likely be an expansion of technique rather than a separate one (at least, in my experience).
However, yes, venues will not stock multiple sizes of concert-ready instruments as expensive (and expensive to maintain) as pianos. Music schools certainly could, though. And having these available for the home would be amazing, as would having (much less expensive) electronic keyboards in different sizes.
posted by LooseFilter at 1:18 PM on March 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Flock, a concert hall wouldn't have to have three pianos, but one piano with three interchangeable actions/keyboards. I did not realize how easy it is to completely remove. Surely the piano will be tuned before a concert anyway, why not make it easy for the performer to use the size that works best for them?
posted by rikschell at 1:27 PM on March 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 1:27 PM on March 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Elton John's rather well received and celebrated piano style is because he has tiny hands. Barely able to reach an octave. So he does a lot of tight cords and small runs/arpeggios that don't span a lot of the keyboard. That's perfectly fine. He's done well enough with it.
posted by hippybear at 1:30 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:30 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
It won't work from the very beginning of a child's piano education, as recitals are an integral part of learning. No grand pianos for most kids.
My parents were friends with a few classical pianists and piano teachers when I was growing up. They'd all look at my hands and my siblings', stretch them out, and be all "hmm, this one has potential, this one has good hands", which as far as I could tell meant having long fingers and a wide span. No word on what the potential of those of us with smaller hands was. There are probably a lot of kids whose early piano education and success therein was affected by the shape of their hands and how much their teachers felt they were worth investing in. You'd think smaller keyboards would be common for teaching kids, like smaller violins are, especially since electric keyboards exist and offer high quality with a small footprint.
posted by trig at 1:33 PM on March 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
My parents were friends with a few classical pianists and piano teachers when I was growing up. They'd all look at my hands and my siblings', stretch them out, and be all "hmm, this one has potential, this one has good hands", which as far as I could tell meant having long fingers and a wide span. No word on what the potential of those of us with smaller hands was. There are probably a lot of kids whose early piano education and success therein was affected by the shape of their hands and how much their teachers felt they were worth investing in. You'd think smaller keyboards would be common for teaching kids, like smaller violins are, especially since electric keyboards exist and offer high quality with a small footprint.
posted by trig at 1:33 PM on March 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
If Casio, Yamaha, or Roland came out with a 5.5" octave digital piano with weighted hammer action keys I'd order it today. I can play an octave, but it's not comfortable.
posted by indexy at 1:42 PM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by indexy at 1:42 PM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Regular typist keyboard nerdery is expensive enough, if this takes off it will be bonkers expensive--mhoye
Sounds like we need a second, smaller width, piano action standard. It certainly sounds like it solves a major inadvertent and before-now unrecognized sexist bias in the industry and profession.
As for being expensive--that means people are spending money. I don't know why the piano industry would be hesitant in pursuing an approach to piano manufacturing that would result in people giving them a lot more money.
posted by eye of newt at 1:43 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sounds like we need a second, smaller width, piano action standard. It certainly sounds like it solves a major inadvertent and before-now unrecognized sexist bias in the industry and profession.
As for being expensive--that means people are spending money. I don't know why the piano industry would be hesitant in pursuing an approach to piano manufacturing that would result in people giving them a lot more money.
posted by eye of newt at 1:43 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Flock, as rikschell mentioned changing out keyboards/actions, DS Standard keyboards are designed to do just that in just five minutes. No re-tuning is involved. This idea is entirely practical. Only one piano is required. Recitals are an integral part of learning. And now kids can have a recital on a piano they can actually play with their small hands.
posted by 3.2.3 at 2:02 PM on March 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by 3.2.3 at 2:02 PM on March 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is the kind of thing I enjoy Metafilter for: cool topics I would never discover on my own. Thanks!
I have the same issue with tools sometimes. With things like tiny screwdrivers, small hands are an advantage, but my drill is unwieldy in my hands. I can only imagine the toxic masculinity that would rear its head if a movement for accessible tools formed.
posted by Comet Bug at 2:20 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have the same issue with tools sometimes. With things like tiny screwdrivers, small hands are an advantage, but my drill is unwieldy in my hands. I can only imagine the toxic masculinity that would rear its head if a movement for accessible tools formed.
posted by Comet Bug at 2:20 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Even if it were impractical for concert halls to have multiple pianos or interchangeable keyboards, the vast majority of people who play aren’t doing so at the concert level.
And when it comes to things like recitals, it would probably make sense for schools to err on the side of having a smaller keyboard, especially if the majority of their students are women and children.
I’d also guess that the potential for injury is greater for small hands that are regularly overextended than it is for large hands that are crowded, but I could be wrong.
Finally, at least when I was a kid, most people taking classes were practicing at home using at 61-key portable Casio keyboard, not a full-on piano. Smaller keys might make it more practical for people to practice on a genuine 88-key keyboard at home if they can’t afford or don’t have the room for a full-on piano.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:28 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
And when it comes to things like recitals, it would probably make sense for schools to err on the side of having a smaller keyboard, especially if the majority of their students are women and children.
I’d also guess that the potential for injury is greater for small hands that are regularly overextended than it is for large hands that are crowded, but I could be wrong.
Finally, at least when I was a kid, most people taking classes were practicing at home using at 61-key portable Casio keyboard, not a full-on piano. Smaller keys might make it more practical for people to practice on a genuine 88-key keyboard at home if they can’t afford or don’t have the room for a full-on piano.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:28 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also, don’t other instruments (violins, guitars, drum kits, etc.) come in a variety of sizes, including kids sizes, with the expectation that kids will size up as they grow? People can adapt their muscle memory for other instruments, so they probably can for piano as well.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:33 PM on March 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by evidenceofabsence at 2:33 PM on March 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
I am a tiny person with tiny hands, and have been struggling with that a lot this past year as I've tried to (mostly successfully, sort of) learn a piece with tons and tons of octave spans in it (Scott Joplin's "Bethena").
I spend nearly all my mental energy when I practice on trying to relax enough to let my hands span those widths.
It would be AMAZING to have a keyboard that's better suited to my own personal hands.
I sing entirely for myself, and I play entirely for myself. Something I could use at home, just for myself, that's suited to my own body size, would be a delight.
I am so glad to know about this. Thank you so much for posting it, BWA, and thanks to all the interesting discussion from others in this thread!
posted by kristi at 2:38 PM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
I spend nearly all my mental energy when I practice on trying to relax enough to let my hands span those widths.
It would be AMAZING to have a keyboard that's better suited to my own personal hands.
I sing entirely for myself, and I play entirely for myself. Something I could use at home, just for myself, that's suited to my own body size, would be a delight.
I am so glad to know about this. Thank you so much for posting it, BWA, and thanks to all the interesting discussion from others in this thread!
posted by kristi at 2:38 PM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Irving Berlin could only play the piano in the key of F sharp; he had a special piano made for him that transposed his playing to other keys , and it’s in the Smithsonian. The piano is a mechanical instrument and can be altered in a remarkable number of ways, but the keyboards linked above are extremely pricy.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:44 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:44 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ok, folks, let's meet back here in 10 years and see if this has caught on. I'll bet any amount of seed it won't. If Mefi and I both still exist, I'll offer a standing bet each decade.
Vanishly few venues are going to buy a new expensive weird grand piano with 3 expensive keyboards, then train technicians to "easily" switch them out (during a concert? At least Twice? Really? Are programs going to be designed based on hand size for less switching? LOL).
The dude in the video can say whatever he wants, his experience doesn't trump mine. I can guarantee that pianists already grumble greatly just dealing with the differences in action between the pianos they practice on regularly and those where they perform.
Bottom line: this solution creates more problems.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:47 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Vanishly few venues are going to buy a new expensive weird grand piano with 3 expensive keyboards, then train technicians to "easily" switch them out (during a concert? At least Twice? Really? Are programs going to be designed based on hand size for less switching? LOL).
The dude in the video can say whatever he wants, his experience doesn't trump mine. I can guarantee that pianists already grumble greatly just dealing with the differences in action between the pianos they practice on regularly and those where they perform.
Bottom line: this solution creates more problems.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:47 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Flock of Cynthiabirds, there are two factors that make me much more optimistic about wider adoption of alternative-sized keyboards than you are:
First, relatively few pianos are sold to concert halls. Piano makers who aim for the home market could see a real payoff - especially makers of digital pianos.
Second, for the kinds of organizations who DO buy concert pianos for public concerts and for university-level education, discrimination lawsuits and workplace injury lawsuits might become a concern. If you provide only one size of keyboard that increases risk of injury to people with certain physical characteristics, especially when there's a gendered aspect to the people having those physical characteristics, you might start to wonder whether a $15,000 swappable action is both less expensive and better PR-wise compared to lawsuits over discrimination and injury.
I would love a 5.5 for myself. I would gladly pay twice what I paid for my latest digital keyboard just to be able to play comfortably.
Whether more alternative-sized keyboards do get built and find a big enough market is, of course, something we shall have to see; but finding out that they exist is definitely encouraging to me personally.
posted by kristi at 3:01 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
First, relatively few pianos are sold to concert halls. Piano makers who aim for the home market could see a real payoff - especially makers of digital pianos.
Second, for the kinds of organizations who DO buy concert pianos for public concerts and for university-level education, discrimination lawsuits and workplace injury lawsuits might become a concern. If you provide only one size of keyboard that increases risk of injury to people with certain physical characteristics, especially when there's a gendered aspect to the people having those physical characteristics, you might start to wonder whether a $15,000 swappable action is both less expensive and better PR-wise compared to lawsuits over discrimination and injury.
I would love a 5.5 for myself. I would gladly pay twice what I paid for my latest digital keyboard just to be able to play comfortably.
Whether more alternative-sized keyboards do get built and find a big enough market is, of course, something we shall have to see; but finding out that they exist is definitely encouraging to me personally.
posted by kristi at 3:01 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Before alternative-sized piano-style keyboards become common, I'd really hope that we'd examine why we're playing electronic music through an interface that was designed hundreds of years ago to deal with strings and hammers. I mean, I know a lot of people know how to use it, but the idea that the piano keyboard is the be-all and end-all of electronic music input devices is absurd. More ergonomic instruments are possible, instruments that are actually easier to learn on, more expressive, smaller, cheaper, and more portable.
Making the piano more accessible, sure, that's great. Making music more accessible is now within our power; we could create a world where everyone who wants to can make music. Anyone want to help with that?
posted by MrVisible at 3:13 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Making the piano more accessible, sure, that's great. Making music more accessible is now within our power; we could create a world where everyone who wants to can make music. Anyone want to help with that?
posted by MrVisible at 3:13 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
If magically all pianos in the world became narrower, would large handed people, after a reasonable adaptation period, have any disadvantage over smaller handed people? Would they have difficulty playing some pieces? Would they experience pain when playing some chords?
Or is it just that now large handed people have a privilege for no good reason?
posted by Dr. Curare at 3:18 PM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Or is it just that now large handed people have a privilege for no good reason?
posted by Dr. Curare at 3:18 PM on March 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
I also play bass with smaller hands, and I have a Jay Turser copy of Paul McCartney's Höfner violin body bass with a 31" scale (most electric basses are 34") and that small change makes a huge difference in playing comfort and reach. Best bass I've ever owned. I think consumer level digital pianos are where there's a profitable market for this, rather than pro acoustic concert pianos. Again, I'd order one today if they were offered, and I know several women who would also.
posted by indexy at 3:28 PM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by indexy at 3:28 PM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think consumer level digital pianos are where there's a profitable market for this, rather than pro acoustic concert pianos.
The problem is the amount of muscle memory that is required with piano training.
Like, I studied classical piano VERY seriously for most of my young life. There are times you're taking a passage of music and slowing it down to 1/4 speed and learning it there with the correct fingering to make it work, and then speeding that up gradually over time.
A lot of fancy piano stuff is literally "I have done this 10000 time with my fingers and can do it here when required" and if you learn on a different size keyboard from that where you might perform in public, that becomes a really serious problem.
I don't know where I fall on the scale of "smaller keyboards are good for smaller hands" vs "standard keyboards allow you to play anywhere at any time", but the argument is the same as for smaller violins or classical guitars, which have wider necks than other guitars. The moment you are confronted with an instrument that has a familiar design but different parameters, you have to learn it all new again.
posted by hippybear at 3:40 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
The problem is the amount of muscle memory that is required with piano training.
Like, I studied classical piano VERY seriously for most of my young life. There are times you're taking a passage of music and slowing it down to 1/4 speed and learning it there with the correct fingering to make it work, and then speeding that up gradually over time.
A lot of fancy piano stuff is literally "I have done this 10000 time with my fingers and can do it here when required" and if you learn on a different size keyboard from that where you might perform in public, that becomes a really serious problem.
I don't know where I fall on the scale of "smaller keyboards are good for smaller hands" vs "standard keyboards allow you to play anywhere at any time", but the argument is the same as for smaller violins or classical guitars, which have wider necks than other guitars. The moment you are confronted with an instrument that has a familiar design but different parameters, you have to learn it all new again.
posted by hippybear at 3:40 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
It was obvious to me when I was a kid that pianos should come in sizes. It sounds like interchangeable keyboards (something I never thought of, and if I'd thought of it, I would have had no idea it was feasible) is the solution.
The video was quite clear that sexism + prejudice against men with small hands were in play to prevent the construction of keyboards with narrower keys. And no one has been bothering to accommodate children, though there are small violins for them.
I hope people who support inclusiveness get onto this issue.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's also demand for wider keyboards, there are a few men who have really wide fingers, and why not?
I can play an octave but not a real ninth. Or at least could. I never got hassled about my hand size-- I wasn't aiming for a piano career. I took a lot of shit for my height, though, and I'm pretty angry at the moment.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:46 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
The video was quite clear that sexism + prejudice against men with small hands were in play to prevent the construction of keyboards with narrower keys. And no one has been bothering to accommodate children, though there are small violins for them.
I hope people who support inclusiveness get onto this issue.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's also demand for wider keyboards, there are a few men who have really wide fingers, and why not?
I can play an octave but not a real ninth. Or at least could. I never got hassled about my hand size-- I wasn't aiming for a piano career. I took a lot of shit for my height, though, and I'm pretty angry at the moment.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:46 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Ok, folks, let's meet back here in 10 years and see if this has caught on. I'll bet any amount of seed it won't. If Mefi and I both still exist, I'll offer a standing bet each decade.
This kind of feels like cheering for it to not happen, which... why? It would be pretty great if it did. The way things are now has sucked for a lot of people for a long time. Yes, accessibility accommodation can make things more complicated. But it also makes things accessible, and it's weird to cheer for that to not happen.
You're probably right and this will take a long time to catch on, if ever. But that's like saying that sexism will always exist, or that disabled people will always face disadvantages, so why get excited about some utopian vision. Even if that's true, it's also true that things can improve, and that when they do it's the result of getting people to believe it should happen.
posted by trig at 4:24 PM on March 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
This kind of feels like cheering for it to not happen, which... why? It would be pretty great if it did. The way things are now has sucked for a lot of people for a long time. Yes, accessibility accommodation can make things more complicated. But it also makes things accessible, and it's weird to cheer for that to not happen.
You're probably right and this will take a long time to catch on, if ever. But that's like saying that sexism will always exist, or that disabled people will always face disadvantages, so why get excited about some utopian vision. Even if that's true, it's also true that things can improve, and that when they do it's the result of getting people to believe it should happen.
posted by trig at 4:24 PM on March 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
If Casio, Yamaha, or Roland came out with a 5.5" octave digital piano with weighted hammer action keys I'd order it today. I can play an octave, but it's not comfortable.
Really, they oughtta! 5.5" minikeys are now common in many performance synth keyboards, I'm actually surprised that they don't really offer weighted options for them (from a goggle search, there might be some out there?)
posted by ovvl at 4:27 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Really, they oughtta! 5.5" minikeys are now common in many performance synth keyboards, I'm actually surprised that they don't really offer weighted options for them (from a goggle search, there might be some out there?)
posted by ovvl at 4:27 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
you have to learn it all new again.
But clearly not: the pianist in the video sat down at a smaller keyboard for the first time ever, played La Campanella and found it easier. And then played it on his recital the next night, on a full-sized keyboard and thought he was better than ever. So until we can each get our hands on a 6.0 or 5.5 keyboard, maybe we shouldn't assume.
Regardless, yeah, this absolutely looks like an issue of (primarily) sexism. There is no artistic, expressive reason not to have variable keyboard sizes; it's not cheating or anything, and TIL that it used to be normal, back in the Golden Age of the Piano.
posted by LooseFilter at 4:32 PM on March 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
But clearly not: the pianist in the video sat down at a smaller keyboard for the first time ever, played La Campanella and found it easier. And then played it on his recital the next night, on a full-sized keyboard and thought he was better than ever. So until we can each get our hands on a 6.0 or 5.5 keyboard, maybe we shouldn't assume.
Regardless, yeah, this absolutely looks like an issue of (primarily) sexism. There is no artistic, expressive reason not to have variable keyboard sizes; it's not cheating or anything, and TIL that it used to be normal, back in the Golden Age of the Piano.
posted by LooseFilter at 4:32 PM on March 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
Venues will not stock and maintain different size pianos, so let's pick the ones that only men with average-and-up sized hands are comfortable playing?
What would happen to these men if they were, horror of horrors, forced to perform on a girly-sized piano? Would their, uh, "hands" shrink to match?
posted by tigrrrlily at 4:45 PM on March 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
What would happen to these men if they were, horror of horrors, forced to perform on a girly-sized piano? Would their, uh, "hands" shrink to match?
posted by tigrrrlily at 4:45 PM on March 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
This conversation is getting weird faster than usual.
posted by mhoye at 4:52 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 4:52 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure why people are talking about venues maintaining pianos and playing in public in such venues. I still think the consumer market digital piano is where the money's at, and where this movement should focus its efforts, precisely because the performance venue market is so limited and people who would play at such already have pro level (standard sized) gear. If I'm ever in a band again I'll take my own gear to play in public, including my digital piano. And a smaller octave size would be a keyboard that's smaller and lighter, win-win!
posted by indexy at 5:33 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by indexy at 5:33 PM on March 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
The conversation is getting weird because we have people saying, straight-faced, stuff that amounts to: "but what if this small change which would majorly improve accessibility ruins the artform?"
I am in the process of re-learning piano after multi-decade break. I don't honestly know if I'd want a smaller keyboard -- my handspan is pretty average -- but I'd love to try one.
More importantly though, the people I've seen who have smaller hands who have tried them have found them absolutely life-changing and affirming in ways that I find incredibly powerful. This includes professional pianists, not one of whom I've seen say that using one caused them any problems (which is not a shock; I am a ridiculously experienced typist, and I have no problem keeping my skills when moving between keyboards that aren't even in the same shape and configuration as one another, from laptops to typewriter-style to split ergo style and so forth).
And yet every discussion I've seen of this (it's made the rounds on various piano forums/reddit/etc online) has to be subjected to the same "but what about ..." responses that amount to worrying about the possible loss of privilege for those the current system privileges.
It'd be nice if MeFi could do better than that?
Also, this?
Before alternative-sized piano-style keyboards become common, I'd really hope that we'd examine why we're playing electronic music through an interface that was designed hundreds of years ago to deal with strings and hammers.
I'm being charitable here, and I don't think you actually mean it this way, but this is incredibly tonedeaf. You are basically saying that before we make a very minor change that would have a huge positive impact particularly for women, we should first consider inventing a whole new kind of instrument. I'm sorry, I don't think marginally better inclusivity for women and men with smaller hands should have to wait for that far future day when the Holophoner or whatever is finally available.
posted by a faithful sock at 5:46 PM on March 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
I am in the process of re-learning piano after multi-decade break. I don't honestly know if I'd want a smaller keyboard -- my handspan is pretty average -- but I'd love to try one.
More importantly though, the people I've seen who have smaller hands who have tried them have found them absolutely life-changing and affirming in ways that I find incredibly powerful. This includes professional pianists, not one of whom I've seen say that using one caused them any problems (which is not a shock; I am a ridiculously experienced typist, and I have no problem keeping my skills when moving between keyboards that aren't even in the same shape and configuration as one another, from laptops to typewriter-style to split ergo style and so forth).
And yet every discussion I've seen of this (it's made the rounds on various piano forums/reddit/etc online) has to be subjected to the same "but what about ..." responses that amount to worrying about the possible loss of privilege for those the current system privileges.
It'd be nice if MeFi could do better than that?
Also, this?
Before alternative-sized piano-style keyboards become common, I'd really hope that we'd examine why we're playing electronic music through an interface that was designed hundreds of years ago to deal with strings and hammers.
I'm being charitable here, and I don't think you actually mean it this way, but this is incredibly tonedeaf. You are basically saying that before we make a very minor change that would have a huge positive impact particularly for women, we should first consider inventing a whole new kind of instrument. I'm sorry, I don't think marginally better inclusivity for women and men with smaller hands should have to wait for that far future day when the Holophoner or whatever is finally available.
posted by a faithful sock at 5:46 PM on March 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
This is really interesting. I'm mostly guitar and bass rather than piano, but I've been paid to play all three.
I've been thinking about these kinds of issues a lot lately, as although my hands comfortably span an octave, my dad and his siblings have been all been developing Dupuytren's contracture (a type of finger arthritis), just like their dad before him.
Even if it were impractical for concert halls to have multiple pianos or interchangeable keyboards, the vast majority of people who play aren’t doing so at the concert level.
Exactly - in my lifetime I've seen what I'd call the Thomann-isation of instruments, where economies of scale have led to huge drops in price the low-mid range. There's no reason why companies couldn't diversify their ranges.
I'm 6ft, but my sister's 5ft, and she can't hit the lowest note on an Irish trad flute due to the size of her hands. There are physics reasons for that, but there's no reason piano keys have to be a certain width.
posted by kersplunk at 6:12 PM on March 6, 2022
I've been thinking about these kinds of issues a lot lately, as although my hands comfortably span an octave, my dad and his siblings have been all been developing Dupuytren's contracture (a type of finger arthritis), just like their dad before him.
Even if it were impractical for concert halls to have multiple pianos or interchangeable keyboards, the vast majority of people who play aren’t doing so at the concert level.
Exactly - in my lifetime I've seen what I'd call the Thomann-isation of instruments, where economies of scale have led to huge drops in price the low-mid range. There's no reason why companies couldn't diversify their ranges.
I'm 6ft, but my sister's 5ft, and she can't hit the lowest note on an Irish trad flute due to the size of her hands. There are physics reasons for that, but there's no reason piano keys have to be a certain width.
posted by kersplunk at 6:12 PM on March 6, 2022
I'm 6ft, but my sister's 5ft, and she can't hit the lowest note on an Irish trad flute due to the size of her hands. There are physics reasons for that
Like, literally nearly every woodwind instrument is designed full of levers and stuff to let people cover holes they can't cover with their normal grasp. You could not play a classical flute or clarinet if you had to rely on your finger span.
posted by hippybear at 6:17 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Like, literally nearly every woodwind instrument is designed full of levers and stuff to let people cover holes they can't cover with their normal grasp. You could not play a classical flute or clarinet if you had to rely on your finger span.
posted by hippybear at 6:17 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean, Men, Women and Pianos (1954) had it pretty clear: the early centuries of piano music are basically playable by anyone. When the piano becomes associated with demure young ladies and is in danger of becoming “feminized”, new manly rock stars like Liszt come in and start doing shit that’s only possible with giant handspans, and banging on the keys so hard that the strings break, etc. as a way of proving that piano is really “manly”.
posted by Hypatia at 6:22 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Hypatia at 6:22 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
You are basically saying that before we make a very minor change that would have a huge positive impact particularly for women, we should first consider inventing a whole new kind of instrument. I'm sorry, I don't think marginally better inclusivity for women and men with smaller hands should have to wait for that far future day when the Holophoner or whatever is finally available.
I call it a music controller. Using the principles it's based on, any number of expressive, easy to play instruments should be possible.
I'm sorry if that came off as tone-deaf, I'm just incredibly frustrated at not being able to get these things into anybody's hands as of yet. They solve so many musical accessibility issues.
posted by MrVisible at 6:26 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I call it a music controller. Using the principles it's based on, any number of expressive, easy to play instruments should be possible.
I'm sorry if that came off as tone-deaf, I'm just incredibly frustrated at not being able to get these things into anybody's hands as of yet. They solve so many musical accessibility issues.
posted by MrVisible at 6:26 PM on March 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Another anecdote which I can’t find the source for at the moment: early player piano rolls had a selling point of “played by the great (fill in the musician)”. The musician would play a specialized player piano that picked out all the holes in the roll. By the 21st century music historians were looking at the rolls of jazz and ragtime greats and saying, “wait I know he had enormous hands but this is literally impossible because he didn’t have 15 fingers”. Yep, they were going through with a pencil point and poking out more notes. The earliest programmers: jazz musicians. Why can’t we transcend our biology.
posted by Hypatia at 6:29 PM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Hypatia at 6:29 PM on March 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I love the piano, but playing a giant intricate machine to mine our deepest meetings with meaning has always been one of those aesthetic/material constructions/conundrums that are so baffling you wonder why body-slapping and singing ever went out of style.
posted by kozad at 6:58 PM on March 6, 2022
posted by kozad at 6:58 PM on March 6, 2022
I'm a musician, and although I'm not a keyboard player, I do own keyboards, and frequent some online keyboard forums, and a common complaint (always from men) of many of the newer synthesizers is that their keys are smaller than standard piano width. Aside from keyboards that have obviously mini keys, there are other variations, especially in length. This is an interesting chart that shows the sizes of keys on various modern keyboards.
I have one synthesizer with 61 keys that are 165mm per octave, and another with 37 keys that are 161mm per octave. So there already is variation among keyboards that most people probably don't notice. And of course, guitars and basses come in various scales. The scale of a Stratocaster is .75" longer than a Les Paul. Most basses are 34", but there are plenty that are 35", 33", 30". And of course, the distance between notes on all stringed instruments gets shorter the higher you go. It does seem unlikely that this will ever catch on with pianos, due to their cost, but arguing that people can't get used to different scales is nonsense.
posted by jonathanhughes at 7:10 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have one synthesizer with 61 keys that are 165mm per octave, and another with 37 keys that are 161mm per octave. So there already is variation among keyboards that most people probably don't notice. And of course, guitars and basses come in various scales. The scale of a Stratocaster is .75" longer than a Les Paul. Most basses are 34", but there are plenty that are 35", 33", 30". And of course, the distance between notes on all stringed instruments gets shorter the higher you go. It does seem unlikely that this will ever catch on with pianos, due to their cost, but arguing that people can't get used to different scales is nonsense.
posted by jonathanhughes at 7:10 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I repair and restore accordions. The instruments used to come with keys from 13 to 21mm wide.
There is no full 41 key (standard accordion) made that I am aware of that is made in anything other than 20mm. One German company makes some smaller instruments (37- key) in 18mm.
I restore the vintage ones on a regular basis for people with smaller hands but these instruments are all 50+ years old.
posted by boilermonster at 7:42 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
There is no full 41 key (standard accordion) made that I am aware of that is made in anything other than 20mm. One German company makes some smaller instruments (37- key) in 18mm.
I restore the vintage ones on a regular basis for people with smaller hands but these instruments are all 50+ years old.
posted by boilermonster at 7:42 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Mr Visible, I wish you success with your invention. But it seems a bit exaggerated to imply that but for your wonderful Starshine controller, we're completely stuck with the pianoforte paradigm. There are just so many alternative controllers available, which you of all people are surely aware of, anything from the theramin to the Roli Seaboard to the Harpejji, to the kalimba, to the INSTRUMENT1, and maybe hundreds or even thousands more, including homemade designs such as this person's split keyboard which is reminiscent of the much larger and more expensive Lumatone, or this guy's 3d printed MIDI ocarina. And plenty of amazing iOS apps, like phonopaper. And maybe a couple of good Android ones, grumble. If anything creativity and variety in this area will continue to proliferate as future instruments take shapes and produce sounds we couldn't even imagine before.
On the totally separate issue of small keyboards and "muscle memory," I imagine there would be concert pianists who simply wouldn't find it worth the trouble to learn all new fingerings to really take advantage of the smaller-width keys. But most keyboard players are not near that level, and for those in the bottom quartile of hand size, this seems like it could be a game-changer, and we could port over our less dexterous skillset to the smaller keys in the same way many people quickly adjust to smaller rental cars or to laptop keyboards.
posted by xigxag at 11:15 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
On the totally separate issue of small keyboards and "muscle memory," I imagine there would be concert pianists who simply wouldn't find it worth the trouble to learn all new fingerings to really take advantage of the smaller-width keys. But most keyboard players are not near that level, and for those in the bottom quartile of hand size, this seems like it could be a game-changer, and we could port over our less dexterous skillset to the smaller keys in the same way many people quickly adjust to smaller rental cars or to laptop keyboards.
posted by xigxag at 11:15 PM on March 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm somewhat baffled that folks are forced, or force themselves, to play piano pieces that they cannot perform without pain (on a standard keyboard). There's no shame in sticking with Bach, and telling Rachmaninoff to piss off!
On a different note, as an amateur keyboard player, with a 9-inch hand-span, I'd very much welcome a world where keyboards can be had with keys of different sizes. After spending most of my life playing pianos and keyboards with standard keys, I got a synthesizer with mini keys. I was immediately struck by how differently I ended up playing on those mini keys. Yes, Liszt is pretty well impossible on those, but being able to reach keys an octave and a half apart made me come up with lines I never would have on a standard keyboard, when improvising. So for those of us outside the virtuoso classical piano circuit, I think having a bunch of keyboards with keys of different sizes can be a great way of introducing variety into one's playing.
posted by epimorph at 12:16 AM on March 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
On a different note, as an amateur keyboard player, with a 9-inch hand-span, I'd very much welcome a world where keyboards can be had with keys of different sizes. After spending most of my life playing pianos and keyboards with standard keys, I got a synthesizer with mini keys. I was immediately struck by how differently I ended up playing on those mini keys. Yes, Liszt is pretty well impossible on those, but being able to reach keys an octave and a half apart made me come up with lines I never would have on a standard keyboard, when improvising. So for those of us outside the virtuoso classical piano circuit, I think having a bunch of keyboards with keys of different sizes can be a great way of introducing variety into one's playing.
posted by epimorph at 12:16 AM on March 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
Before alternative-sized piano-style keyboards become common, I'd really hope that we'd examine why we're playing electronic music through an interface that was designed hundreds of years ago to deal with strings and hammers. I mean, I know a lot of people know how to use it, but the idea that the piano keyboard is the be-all and end-all of electronic music input devices is absurd.
This is not a new sentiment. It was one of the motivations guiding Don Buchla as he developed modular synthesizers starting in the 1960s. He and Robert Moog were arguably the two great pioneers of synthesizer design, and while Moog's synths mostly had keyboards, Buchla avoided them in favor of other types of interfaces.
But having an interface that people recognized and had already been trained to use actually made Moog's instruments more accessible to a broader public. And after Wendy Carlos' 1968 album Switched-On Bach, performed on a Moog system, turned out to be a smash hit, keyboards became the default interface for most synths.
Still, Buchla's designs still have a devoted following. Several years ago I got to meet Morton Subotnick and see his Buchla system up close. And just last night, I attended a performance by Suzanne Ciani, another Buchla devotee, and got a look at hers after the show.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:34 AM on March 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
This is not a new sentiment. It was one of the motivations guiding Don Buchla as he developed modular synthesizers starting in the 1960s. He and Robert Moog were arguably the two great pioneers of synthesizer design, and while Moog's synths mostly had keyboards, Buchla avoided them in favor of other types of interfaces.
But having an interface that people recognized and had already been trained to use actually made Moog's instruments more accessible to a broader public. And after Wendy Carlos' 1968 album Switched-On Bach, performed on a Moog system, turned out to be a smash hit, keyboards became the default interface for most synths.
Still, Buchla's designs still have a devoted following. Several years ago I got to meet Morton Subotnick and see his Buchla system up close. And just last night, I attended a performance by Suzanne Ciani, another Buchla devotee, and got a look at hers after the show.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:34 AM on March 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
If magically all pianos in the world became narrower, would large handed people, after a reasonable adaptation period, have any disadvantage over smaller handed people? Would they have difficulty playing some pieces? Would they experience pain when playing some chords?
Or is it just that now large handed people have a privilege for no good reason?
I am not a proper pianist at all, but we have a full size electronic piano and a few smaller keyboards in the house, and yes, with my giant mitts I definitely can't play tight chords on some of them. The smallest we have, I really struggle to play individual notes, even - I don't use that one much.
Because I'm not a proper pianist, I don't really care much about action or key weight or whatever (don't get me wrong, the proper electronic piano is definitely nicer to play in many ways) and 99% of the time I'm just practicing or pushing MIDI into a PC, so having several sizes of keyboard is GREAT. I'll use the full size with proper weighted keys for most piano stuff, anything with close chords, but a smaller cheap MIDI keyboard is much better for synth bass lines, with easy access to >octave stretches while fiddling knobs and faders (or mouse) with the other hand. Or in other words:
So for those of us outside the virtuoso classical piano circuit, I think having a bunch of keyboards with keys of different sizes can be a great way of introducing variety into one's playing.
To me, they're different tools for different jobs. The variety is a bonus! But absolutely, some of us have giant hands and would struggle to play a lot of stuff with smaller keyboards - which is pretty much the situation that (the much larger number of?) people with smaller hands are in now.
posted by Dysk at 2:12 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Or is it just that now large handed people have a privilege for no good reason?
I am not a proper pianist at all, but we have a full size electronic piano and a few smaller keyboards in the house, and yes, with my giant mitts I definitely can't play tight chords on some of them. The smallest we have, I really struggle to play individual notes, even - I don't use that one much.
Because I'm not a proper pianist, I don't really care much about action or key weight or whatever (don't get me wrong, the proper electronic piano is definitely nicer to play in many ways) and 99% of the time I'm just practicing or pushing MIDI into a PC, so having several sizes of keyboard is GREAT. I'll use the full size with proper weighted keys for most piano stuff, anything with close chords, but a smaller cheap MIDI keyboard is much better for synth bass lines, with easy access to >octave stretches while fiddling knobs and faders (or mouse) with the other hand. Or in other words:
So for those of us outside the virtuoso classical piano circuit, I think having a bunch of keyboards with keys of different sizes can be a great way of introducing variety into one's playing.
To me, they're different tools for different jobs. The variety is a bonus! But absolutely, some of us have giant hands and would struggle to play a lot of stuff with smaller keyboards - which is pretty much the situation that (the much larger number of?) people with smaller hands are in now.
posted by Dysk at 2:12 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
(And on the muscle memory front, it is worth noting that even the DS Foundation recognise the importance of it, making their mission [to] set a standard for alternatively sized keyboards that is recognized globally, so that pianists, whether amateurs or professionals, may achieve their full musical potential while avoiding injury and perform with confidence anywhere in the world, knowing that a keyboard bearing the DS® logo will be the size with which they are familiar. And yes, you absolutely can adapt across scale differences and still play, but for most people it does impact you. I can absolutely pick up any guitar or bass (in a familiar tuning) and just go to town. But on mine, with hundreds of thousands of hours on that particular neck, with my preferred strings, action, etc, etc, I play better. It's marginal, but it's there. I'm not good enough with keyboard instruments for subtle differences to feel meaningful to me (physical issues jamming my fingers into too tight a space aside) but it does on guitar, which I've played far longer. I have a very hard time imagining that going between substantially different keyboard sizes won't affect many pianists similarly, particularly after a lifetime of one size. On the other hand, they might just find that the new keyboard is their actual preference, fits their hands better, etc, in which case sure, you won't necessarily feel you're playing worse, or be doing so. But that won't necessarily be everyone at every level.)
posted by Dysk at 2:22 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 2:22 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone has mentioned that with keyboards which accommodate more people, more people will take up piano.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:22 AM on March 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:22 AM on March 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
The conversation is getting weird because we have people saying, straight-faced, stuff that amounts to: "but what if this small change which would majorly improve accessibility ruins the artform?"
That’s the core challenge of classic conservatism, I guess - this desire to hold fast to the good in those choices we’ve inherited becoming a defence of the inequities and injustices that underpinned them, the prospect of change becoming an attack on identity.
This is really where the notions that art and creativity are scarce resources, the idea that intellectual property is even a thing that exists, really shines as a pernicious force for the oppression of the common good. On its face, the idea that enabling more people to create more art is bad - that it will cause the old art to be taken from us somehow, is absurd. But here we are, with some of us wondering if new piano sizes might somehow devalue or rob us of the music made on the current standard models.
There is a kernel of truth to that fear, though - take a look at what social progress, even the modest progress we’ve made in inclusivity and representation in popular culture has done to how we look back on movies from the 70s and 80s. A lot of those jokes just aren’t funny anymore, and some of them range from awful to terrifying, because we have a new set of critical lenses to see them through. I think that’s the real fear, if there is such a thing, the real threat to identity: that our simple love might turn into a complex opinion that isn’t so pure, or worse, a realization that some of these things we’ve loved might actually be very bad, and we might have to come to some sort of terms about what that says about us.
Anyway, more people making art is good and more things that make making art accessible is good because more art is good, and genuflecting to the size of a piano key because Rachmaninoff might somehow be taken from us if you don’t is silly and selfish.
posted by mhoye at 6:01 AM on March 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
That’s the core challenge of classic conservatism, I guess - this desire to hold fast to the good in those choices we’ve inherited becoming a defence of the inequities and injustices that underpinned them, the prospect of change becoming an attack on identity.
This is really where the notions that art and creativity are scarce resources, the idea that intellectual property is even a thing that exists, really shines as a pernicious force for the oppression of the common good. On its face, the idea that enabling more people to create more art is bad - that it will cause the old art to be taken from us somehow, is absurd. But here we are, with some of us wondering if new piano sizes might somehow devalue or rob us of the music made on the current standard models.
There is a kernel of truth to that fear, though - take a look at what social progress, even the modest progress we’ve made in inclusivity and representation in popular culture has done to how we look back on movies from the 70s and 80s. A lot of those jokes just aren’t funny anymore, and some of them range from awful to terrifying, because we have a new set of critical lenses to see them through. I think that’s the real fear, if there is such a thing, the real threat to identity: that our simple love might turn into a complex opinion that isn’t so pure, or worse, a realization that some of these things we’ve loved might actually be very bad, and we might have to come to some sort of terms about what that says about us.
Anyway, more people making art is good and more things that make making art accessible is good because more art is good, and genuflecting to the size of a piano key because Rachmaninoff might somehow be taken from us if you don’t is silly and selfish.
posted by mhoye at 6:01 AM on March 7, 2022 [6 favorites]
I feel like most people here have not read any of the extensive discussion of the semi-standard 'slim' keys on many synthesizers? People have already talked about this a lot, just less for the angle of physical acoustic instruments.
I didn't watch TFV. Did they talk about how many harpsichords had essentially the same keys as my Korg Minilog? How shorter octaves as an option on some instruments aren't exactly new?
Anyway: would large handed people, after a reasonable adaptation period, have any disadvantage over smaller handed people?
Yes absolutely, if their large hands have large diameter fingers. My hand are slightly small in span, and also finger tip diameter, and I still find it easier to play quickly and cleanly on a full-width keyboard, because there is literally more room on each side of my finger when I put my finger on a key. People with large diameter fingers literally cannot play a single white key up between black keys on my slim keyboard, they have to rub depress a black key too, due to explicit spatial limitations. But I like what I can do with a slim keyboard too.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:20 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I didn't watch TFV. Did they talk about how many harpsichords had essentially the same keys as my Korg Minilog? How shorter octaves as an option on some instruments aren't exactly new?
Anyway: would large handed people, after a reasonable adaptation period, have any disadvantage over smaller handed people?
Yes absolutely, if their large hands have large diameter fingers. My hand are slightly small in span, and also finger tip diameter, and I still find it easier to play quickly and cleanly on a full-width keyboard, because there is literally more room on each side of my finger when I put my finger on a key. People with large diameter fingers literally cannot play a single white key up between black keys on my slim keyboard, they have to rub depress a black key too, due to explicit spatial limitations. But I like what I can do with a slim keyboard too.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:20 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've played piano for over 40 years, and my hand span is only 5.5 inches. I always knew my hand size was an obstacle, but I figured I couldn't be the only person in the world with tiny hands to overcome, so I persisted with my lessons. In high school I had a sympathetic female teacher who would actually pull performances from the university's music library so I could hear how female pianists had made adjustments to advanced material as written to accommodate a smaller hand span. This way I wouldn't have lots of points deducted in competitions. I won a scholarship to study piano in college, but the discomfort I experienced as I tried to play many of the standards in the advanced repertoire was significant, and I was only a teenager then. I had pain in my forearms and hands with every practice session, because I was struggling so to make my hands span a distance they just can't reach. I eventually gave up on my music major.
Today I have a nice weighted keyboard at home (Korg), and I play for pleasure only occasionally. I have arthritis in my fingers, and obviously my tiny hands haven't gotten any bigger over the years. It doesn't take long for me to feel strain and discomfort if I attempt Chopin or some of the more muscular Beethoven. After watching the video in this post, I followed a link and discovered there is a company (Hailun) now putting DS5.5 keyboards in one of their upright piano models. They're very expensive, but I wish I could play one somehow. If I had been able to access a smaller scale keyboard in my youth, my entire life would have been different. My entire LIFE.
posted by little mouth at 7:36 AM on March 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
Today I have a nice weighted keyboard at home (Korg), and I play for pleasure only occasionally. I have arthritis in my fingers, and obviously my tiny hands haven't gotten any bigger over the years. It doesn't take long for me to feel strain and discomfort if I attempt Chopin or some of the more muscular Beethoven. After watching the video in this post, I followed a link and discovered there is a company (Hailun) now putting DS5.5 keyboards in one of their upright piano models. They're very expensive, but I wish I could play one somehow. If I had been able to access a smaller scale keyboard in my youth, my entire life would have been different. My entire LIFE.
posted by little mouth at 7:36 AM on March 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
I love the piano, but playing a giant intricate machine to mine our deepest meetings with meaning has always been one of those aesthetic/material constructions/conundrums that are so baffling you wonder why body-slapping and singing ever went out of style.
Fortunately, we don't have to choose. We can have both, neither diminishing the other.
posted by biogeo at 8:12 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Also, don’t other instruments (violins, guitars, drum kits, etc.) come in a variety of sizes, including kids sizes, with the expectation that kids will size up as they grow? People can adapt their muscle memory for other instruments, so they probably can for piano as well."
Female (upright) bassist here, with relatively small hands. I played pretty seriously through college, went to a lot of master classes, worked festivals. Every pro I met, classical and jazz both, held their hand up to compare to mine and asked, "But ... how do you even play?" (I have some pictures of short little me standing with various above-six-feet well-known jazz bassists, holding our hands up to compare, and theirs are literally twice the size of mine.)
One of the things I didn't think about much at the time, was, adult bassists actually play on a 3/4 size bass. 4/4 basses exist, but they're just ginormous and unwieldy and hard to play and 3/4 has become the standard. But ... nobody ever suggested I could just play a 1/2-size because I was a smaller person, even though those definitely exist? I was put on a 3/4 when I started (at age 12). I could barely carry it in its case, not because it was heavy but because I was too short to get it up off the ground. 1/2-size basses don't sound great, but I think that's because they're all student instruments -- I've played a lot of crappy-sounding 3/4 student basses too.
Anyway, upright basses are much more of a niche market than pianos and more accessible pianos would help a lot more people than more accessible basses. (I, too, would like to try one ... I play a little bit but a 7th is as far as I can really span, so I ran out of options pretty fast when I took lessons.) But in retrospect it's actually pretty weird that a smaller-size upright bass exists and is readily accessible and just ... nobody ever suggested it as an option to me? "Real" bassists play 3/4 size, end of story.
"I can only imagine the toxic masculinity that would rear its head if a movement for accessible tools formed."
When I graduated college one of my brothers gave me a set of tools made for women, in that they were small-scale, not that they were pink. Two screwdrivers, hammer, pliers. I LOVE THAT HAMMER. It's so much nicer in my hand, it's so much easier to use, it's so much less-fatiguing, it's so much easier to balance properly. And it is 100% adequate to the basic home maintenance sorts of tasks it gets put to. I suppose it might be a bit puny to, like, frame a house by hand ... but don't they use nail guns for that anyway? It's PERFECT for assembling furniture, hanging drywall anchors, etc. I feel like this is a job for Oxo Good Grips to get on right away and start providing us with smaller-scale household hammers that fit smaller hands.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:54 AM on March 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Female (upright) bassist here, with relatively small hands. I played pretty seriously through college, went to a lot of master classes, worked festivals. Every pro I met, classical and jazz both, held their hand up to compare to mine and asked, "But ... how do you even play?" (I have some pictures of short little me standing with various above-six-feet well-known jazz bassists, holding our hands up to compare, and theirs are literally twice the size of mine.)
One of the things I didn't think about much at the time, was, adult bassists actually play on a 3/4 size bass. 4/4 basses exist, but they're just ginormous and unwieldy and hard to play and 3/4 has become the standard. But ... nobody ever suggested I could just play a 1/2-size because I was a smaller person, even though those definitely exist? I was put on a 3/4 when I started (at age 12). I could barely carry it in its case, not because it was heavy but because I was too short to get it up off the ground. 1/2-size basses don't sound great, but I think that's because they're all student instruments -- I've played a lot of crappy-sounding 3/4 student basses too.
Anyway, upright basses are much more of a niche market than pianos and more accessible pianos would help a lot more people than more accessible basses. (I, too, would like to try one ... I play a little bit but a 7th is as far as I can really span, so I ran out of options pretty fast when I took lessons.) But in retrospect it's actually pretty weird that a smaller-size upright bass exists and is readily accessible and just ... nobody ever suggested it as an option to me? "Real" bassists play 3/4 size, end of story.
"I can only imagine the toxic masculinity that would rear its head if a movement for accessible tools formed."
When I graduated college one of my brothers gave me a set of tools made for women, in that they were small-scale, not that they were pink. Two screwdrivers, hammer, pliers. I LOVE THAT HAMMER. It's so much nicer in my hand, it's so much easier to use, it's so much less-fatiguing, it's so much easier to balance properly. And it is 100% adequate to the basic home maintenance sorts of tasks it gets put to. I suppose it might be a bit puny to, like, frame a house by hand ... but don't they use nail guns for that anyway? It's PERFECT for assembling furniture, hanging drywall anchors, etc. I feel like this is a job for Oxo Good Grips to get on right away and start providing us with smaller-scale household hammers that fit smaller hands.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:54 AM on March 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is really interesting. (I think the standard keyboard is about right for me. Probably 'cause it was designed by people who look like me.)
I realized two years ago that the way we originally set up our research lab really doesn't work for people who aren't at least 5' 5". There are some things we can't change and probably couldn't have changed to begin with without enormous cost. But, putting panels of SMA connectors so high our visiting students couldn't reach them without a ladder was a really dumb choice, as was stocking some important materials at what is just above eye-level for me and literally out of sight for shorter people. We've been lucky (well, probably because of systematic racism and sexism, and to some extent the privileged position tall people occupy) that nobody ever brought it up before. I apologized to a graduated former student, who, sadly, told me they were just used to it.
Figuring out how to make things easier for people with less hand/wrist strength is a harder problem. Big lever arms work for some things, but some of those tools don't exist unless you make them yourself. We definitely needed to buy some screw-top jar openers for the lab, though.
posted by eotvos at 11:05 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I realized two years ago that the way we originally set up our research lab really doesn't work for people who aren't at least 5' 5". There are some things we can't change and probably couldn't have changed to begin with without enormous cost. But, putting panels of SMA connectors so high our visiting students couldn't reach them without a ladder was a really dumb choice, as was stocking some important materials at what is just above eye-level for me and literally out of sight for shorter people. We've been lucky (well, probably because of systematic racism and sexism, and to some extent the privileged position tall people occupy) that nobody ever brought it up before. I apologized to a graduated former student, who, sadly, told me they were just used to it.
Figuring out how to make things easier for people with less hand/wrist strength is a harder problem. Big lever arms work for some things, but some of those tools don't exist unless you make them yourself. We definitely needed to buy some screw-top jar openers for the lab, though.
posted by eotvos at 11:05 AM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
"And of course, guitars and basses come in various scales. The scale of a Stratocaster is .75" longer than a Les Paul. Most basses are 34", but there are plenty that are 35", 33", 30". . . It does seem unlikely that this will ever catch on with pianos, due to their cost, but arguing that people can't get used to different scales is nonsense."
Extremely important point: people can carry their stringed instrument of choice to the performance venue. Pianists, except a few world class stars, use whatever piano is available at each venue where they perform.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:00 PM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Extremely important point: people can carry their stringed instrument of choice to the performance venue. Pianists, except a few world class stars, use whatever piano is available at each venue where they perform.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:00 PM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
But it also makes things accessible, and it's weird to cheer for that to not happen.
Yes, that would be weird, if it were happening. I'd thank you to not choose the least charitable interpretation you can find of my words and then assign it to me and argue against it as though youre arguing against me. I am actually made out of flesh and blood, not straw.
I do not cheer for this DS standard not to catch on. I said no such thing and feel no such thing.
I simply do not believe this will ever be more than an expensive niche product that some people may have in their homes but that will rarely be used in performances, or by performing musicians.
My offer to come back etc. was inspired by frustration that people were not getting my points. So... if my arguments will not sway you, then let's just see if in fact this takes off. We will see.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:18 PM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, that would be weird, if it were happening. I'd thank you to not choose the least charitable interpretation you can find of my words and then assign it to me and argue against it as though youre arguing against me. I am actually made out of flesh and blood, not straw.
I do not cheer for this DS standard not to catch on. I said no such thing and feel no such thing.
I simply do not believe this will ever be more than an expensive niche product that some people may have in their homes but that will rarely be used in performances, or by performing musicians.
My offer to come back etc. was inspired by frustration that people were not getting my points. So... if my arguments will not sway you, then let's just see if in fact this takes off. We will see.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:18 PM on March 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
You're probably right and this will take a long time to catch on, if ever. But that's like saying that sexism will always exist, or that disabled people will always face disadvantages, so why get excited about some utopian vision. Even if that's true, it's also true that things can improve, and that when they do it's the result of getting people to believe it should happen.
Wow. So. I am both female and disabled. Your straw man argument would be grating anyway, but it's especially offensive because I have experienced HEAVY amounts of sexism, especially when I worked in IT. For you to disparage me like this based on some words of mine that you chose to misinterpret and then run with instead of clarifying is really grating.
My opinion about the viability of this standard--which is informed by many years of serious piano study-- doesn't make me any sort of -ist, and I'd thank you to stop using me as your dumping ground for misplaced righteous indignation.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:24 PM on March 7, 2022
Wow. So. I am both female and disabled. Your straw man argument would be grating anyway, but it's especially offensive because I have experienced HEAVY amounts of sexism, especially when I worked in IT. For you to disparage me like this based on some words of mine that you chose to misinterpret and then run with instead of clarifying is really grating.
My opinion about the viability of this standard--which is informed by many years of serious piano study-- doesn't make me any sort of -ist, and I'd thank you to stop using me as your dumping ground for misplaced righteous indignation.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:24 PM on March 7, 2022
One of the things I didn't think about much at the time, was, adult bassists actually play on a 3/4 size bass. 4/4 basses exist, but they're just ginormous and unwieldy and hard to play and 3/4 has become the standard. But ... nobody ever suggested I could just play a 1/2-size because I was a smaller person, even though those definitely exist?.
When I started teaching orchestra at my middle school we had 4 3/4 size basses. As the program has expanded over the years, I have bought 6 1/2 size basses. It’s so much better for a kid to play on something that fits them; boys are not usually at their full height when I have them, and early-growing guys and lanky girls can just use the 3/4 size basses I do have. When I grab a bass off the rack to play along with kids I always grab a 1/2 size- I’m a hair over 5 feet tall and it’s the only way I don’t have to contort myself to play in tune in first position. Most of my kids are in the same boat and if you can’t play with relaxed technique you eventually hurt yourself and stop playing.
I don’t see why an attempt shouldn’t be made for pianists, too. I’d never really thought about why I stalled out on piano, which I had taken quite seriously along with horn, late in high school. I do think a part of it was just reaching the point in the literature where everything is just giant chords spanning too far for me to reach cleanly consistently and not feeling like any amount of practicing was getting me anywhere. It would be interesting to try a smaller keyboard out.
posted by charmedimsure at 1:37 AM on March 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
When I started teaching orchestra at my middle school we had 4 3/4 size basses. As the program has expanded over the years, I have bought 6 1/2 size basses. It’s so much better for a kid to play on something that fits them; boys are not usually at their full height when I have them, and early-growing guys and lanky girls can just use the 3/4 size basses I do have. When I grab a bass off the rack to play along with kids I always grab a 1/2 size- I’m a hair over 5 feet tall and it’s the only way I don’t have to contort myself to play in tune in first position. Most of my kids are in the same boat and if you can’t play with relaxed technique you eventually hurt yourself and stop playing.
I don’t see why an attempt shouldn’t be made for pianists, too. I’d never really thought about why I stalled out on piano, which I had taken quite seriously along with horn, late in high school. I do think a part of it was just reaching the point in the literature where everything is just giant chords spanning too far for me to reach cleanly consistently and not feeling like any amount of practicing was getting me anywhere. It would be interesting to try a smaller keyboard out.
posted by charmedimsure at 1:37 AM on March 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hey, Flock of Cynthiabirds. I'm also both female and disabled. I was absolutely not trying to disparage you in my comment - I usually make an effort to be as impersonal as possible, which apparently I didn't do well here.
I was trying to disparage the idea that it's somehow important for people to agree that this will never happen. I don't think you, personally, are any sort of -ist (and don't think I accused you of being that!) I do think that the current standard for pianos does, effectively, discriminate significantly against anyone with small hands (and these are disproportionately women). There are also lots of other people who are shut out of ever being able to play, like me, for completely different disability-related reasons. Making the piano accessible to someone like me would be extremely difficult; I'm not sure a solution is possible or what that would even look like. But it turns out that making the piano accessible to people with smaller hands is relatively easy and doable - that real-world solutions exist right now, and are apparently pretty good. That's really wonderful! So instead of doubling down on how the expense and inconvenience of these solutions mean they will never catch on, I vote for seeing that expense as being worthwhile, and for hoping that more and more people see it that way too. Sure, it might not happen; a lot of good things don't. But often enough people believing they can and should is what makes the difference.
posted by trig at 3:12 AM on March 8, 2022
I was trying to disparage the idea that it's somehow important for people to agree that this will never happen. I don't think you, personally, are any sort of -ist (and don't think I accused you of being that!) I do think that the current standard for pianos does, effectively, discriminate significantly against anyone with small hands (and these are disproportionately women). There are also lots of other people who are shut out of ever being able to play, like me, for completely different disability-related reasons. Making the piano accessible to someone like me would be extremely difficult; I'm not sure a solution is possible or what that would even look like. But it turns out that making the piano accessible to people with smaller hands is relatively easy and doable - that real-world solutions exist right now, and are apparently pretty good. That's really wonderful! So instead of doubling down on how the expense and inconvenience of these solutions mean they will never catch on, I vote for seeing that expense as being worthwhile, and for hoping that more and more people see it that way too. Sure, it might not happen; a lot of good things don't. But often enough people believing they can and should is what makes the difference.
posted by trig at 3:12 AM on March 8, 2022
So, just talking numbers, currently a new interchangeable action costs $14,800. That's not an insubstantial figure, but it's 10% of the price of a Steinway concert grand. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem because high cost is going to suppress demand, but higher demand should help cost go down. It would be great if schools took the lead, either by choice or by lawsuit. That could clear the way for more venues to buy in, not only because it would cost less, but because a whole new generation of pianists would come in with the expectation of a keyboard that matched their preference.
It does seem like there's a little perfect being the enemy of the good here. If they'd designed ONE smaller keyboard that covered the smaller-hand range completely, rather than the two overlapping standards ("Universal" and 7/8), it might be easier to convince institutions to buy in. From their dataset, it seems like that would have been possible. A $14,800 problem is easier to solve than a $29,600 problem.
posted by rikschell at 5:58 AM on March 8, 2022
It does seem like there's a little perfect being the enemy of the good here. If they'd designed ONE smaller keyboard that covered the smaller-hand range completely, rather than the two overlapping standards ("Universal" and 7/8), it might be easier to convince institutions to buy in. From their dataset, it seems like that would have been possible. A $14,800 problem is easier to solve than a $29,600 problem.
posted by rikschell at 5:58 AM on March 8, 2022
Sure, it might be easier to just pick one in that case, but why is the discussion entirely about high-end concert pianos in the first place?
For one thing, digital pianos presently are outselling acoustic pianos at a rate of 9:1 or 10:1 based on the latest data easily findable via google. That includes purchases by a lot of people who are in fact bringing their own instruments to gigs, because it turns out not everyone who plays a piano professionally in front of an audience is doing it in a giant music hall on a $150,000 Steinway owned by the venue.
For another, even among people playing acoustic pianos, practically none of them are ever going to be classical concert pianists. Even among those who make it into the elite music schools, vanishingly few will ever work professionally in such a capacity.
Spending so much time worrying "what about the concert pianists?" is, IMHO, counterproductive. It's like arguing against more usable gear for playing baseball in a casual setting because it wouldn't be allowed in the major leagues -- who gives a shit? The people who are actually going to end up in the majors (statistically not you, not me, not your kids, etc) will be fine. They will get access to the tools they need. Meanwhile, there's a pretty big accessibility issue, and in the case of piano one that is eminently solvable, and we shouldn't be telling ourselves we can't solve it because of some nebulous possible problem for the professionals.
posted by a faithful sock at 6:52 AM on March 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
For one thing, digital pianos presently are outselling acoustic pianos at a rate of 9:1 or 10:1 based on the latest data easily findable via google. That includes purchases by a lot of people who are in fact bringing their own instruments to gigs, because it turns out not everyone who plays a piano professionally in front of an audience is doing it in a giant music hall on a $150,000 Steinway owned by the venue.
For another, even among people playing acoustic pianos, practically none of them are ever going to be classical concert pianists. Even among those who make it into the elite music schools, vanishingly few will ever work professionally in such a capacity.
Spending so much time worrying "what about the concert pianists?" is, IMHO, counterproductive. It's like arguing against more usable gear for playing baseball in a casual setting because it wouldn't be allowed in the major leagues -- who gives a shit? The people who are actually going to end up in the majors (statistically not you, not me, not your kids, etc) will be fine. They will get access to the tools they need. Meanwhile, there's a pretty big accessibility issue, and in the case of piano one that is eminently solvable, and we shouldn't be telling ourselves we can't solve it because of some nebulous possible problem for the professionals.
posted by a faithful sock at 6:52 AM on March 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
So, just talking numbers, currently a new interchangeable action costs $14,800.
This is a very realistic number for many institutions, like my medium-sized university, and I'm going to suggest buying at least one of these to our piano faculty. (Which is all women, two of three could very possibly like the smaller keyboard better, and I wonder if they even know these exist? Until this post, I didn't.)
because a whole new generation of pianists would come in with the expectation of a keyboard that matched their preference.
Agreed, this is what I'm thinking too, if schools have these available for students, then it will help create demand/expectation.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:44 AM on March 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is a very realistic number for many institutions, like my medium-sized university, and I'm going to suggest buying at least one of these to our piano faculty. (Which is all women, two of three could very possibly like the smaller keyboard better, and I wonder if they even know these exist? Until this post, I didn't.)
because a whole new generation of pianists would come in with the expectation of a keyboard that matched their preference.
Agreed, this is what I'm thinking too, if schools have these available for students, then it will help create demand/expectation.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:44 AM on March 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
I play piano, am male, and can only reach a 9th. But personally, I prefer to have some limitations in music or any art I pursue. It's what makes it for me, in fact.
posted by readyfreddy at 1:33 PM on March 8, 2022
posted by readyfreddy at 1:33 PM on March 8, 2022
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