rhetoric to give the appearance of legitimate debate where there is none

March 15, 2022 4:11 PM

Denialism is a process that employs some or all of these characteristics.
1. Conspiracies.
2. Fake experts.
3. Selectivity.
4. Creation of impossible expectations for research.
5. Use of misrepresentation and logical fallacies, e.g. Hitler was anti-smoking therefore...

The article found via recent discussion by biosecurity experts on the preposterous lie that Ukraine is developing bioweapons.

There is also a variant of conspiracy theory, inversionism, in which some of one's own characteristics and motivations are attributed to others. For example, tobacco companies describe academic research into the health effects of smoking as the product of an ‘anti-smoking industry’, described as ‘a vertically integrated, highly concentrated, oligopolistic cartel, combined with some public monopolies’....

posted by spamandkimchi (25 comments total)

Meant to note that the article is from 2009, so well before the hyper-escalation of fake news, covid-19 grifters peddling conspiracies and anti-vaccine remedies, and the info war aspects of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Thus, their recommendations explicitly exclude de-platforming and, in my opinion, way way overestimate the power of facts and logic to address denialism.
posted by spamandkimchi at 4:14 PM on March 15, 2022 [19 favorites]

Twenty-odd years ago The Nizkor Project published on the web this indispensable summary of fallacious logical gambits, targeted at the Holocaust denialist industry.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:38 PM on March 15, 2022 [22 favorites]

”Denialistsare usually not deterred by the extreme isolation of their theories, but rather see it as the indication of their intellectual courage against the dominant orthodoxy and the accompanying political correctness, often comparing themselves to Galileo.”

I’ve been thinking about this a lot in recent months. In the documentary on the Bee Gees, Barry was asked about their sudden turn away from incredible popularity to being the object of scorn. There were many factors in this (sheer ubiquity, changing tastes), but he added another explanation. Paraphrasing, he said that whenever everyone likes a thing, it becomes that the only interesting thing to say about that thing is you don’t like it. It’s a purely reflexive, contrarian position that goes to none the merits, only to the speaker’s need to be distinct.

Since then, I’ve been noticing that pattern over and over and over. This article is much more detailed, of course, but at its heart, I see that same reflexive, contrarian position.
posted by Capt. Renault at 5:09 PM on March 15, 2022 [50 favorites]

Metafilter is Fark but with a monacle.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:52 PM on March 15, 2022 [14 favorites]

I’m glad this article exists. I’m tempted to commit every example to memory for the next time I get cornered by a right winger.
posted by condour75 at 6:18 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]

I don't engage with people like this because I don't care if they drive off the edge of the Earth.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:54 PM on March 15, 2022 [12 favorites]

'Often, when things seem weird, I wonder why conspiracies drive off a cliff when the simply could jump and save the tow.'

-Jauques Handie
posted by clavdivs at 9:05 PM on March 15, 2022 [4 favorites]

on the Bee Gees, Barry was asked

Not to take the piss, but isn't this kinda a self-serving argument for him? It's not like the Bee Gees' ascent wasn't enabled by lots of marketing. They didn't reach that happy place on talent alone. There isn't now a chorus of 'yourbandsucks' at the Beatles, eg.

Now. Otoh, it does make you speculate at the marketing budget for anti-Semitism. It must be epic and continuous.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 9:06 PM on March 15, 2022

such as a willingness to look at the evidence as a whole, to reject deliberate from Article.

I actually talked to a person who used minimalism of the Holocaust despite living during that period. I believe the person was about 19 in 1944-45. Somewhere in present day Hungary. The usual evidence is given and there's always some sort of rebuttal, usually minimalizing. Finally I asked the person if the United States government had proof they existed would you believe it. what came next was a question, more time likely to use more minimization.
"Aerial Photos"
"proves nothing, labor camp"
"Then why did we consider bombing a labor camp."
posted by clavdivs at 9:30 PM on March 15, 2022 [1 favorite]

Holy shit, "Should we bomb concentration camps?" is by far the most insane Trolley Problem I've ever encountered.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:37 PM on March 15, 2022 [3 favorites]

Not to take the piss, but isn't this kinda a self-serving argument for him? It's not like the Bee Gees' ascent wasn't enabled by lots of marketing.

This isn't addressing the argument, though. Irrespective of how or why they were popular, they were popular, and then not so much, despite still having the marketing muscle that you demonize. I like his theory, but I would augment it with: they were reigning kings of disco just when the whole "disco sucks" (which, on reflection. fits with his thesis) thing hit, stupid Chicago White Sox game records demolition. race and homophobia-fed undercurrents and all.
posted by Chitownfats at 1:06 AM on March 16, 2022 [8 favorites]

Denialism is a process that employs some or all of these characteristics.

No it isn't.

And I can prove it using these ancient scrolls, two Wikipedia articles, a footnoted blog post from a respectable published academic in a different field, and a soupçon of "common" sense.
posted by chavenet at 2:35 AM on March 16, 2022 [8 favorites]

There isn't now a chorus of 'yourbandsucks' at the Beatles, eg.

If you hang out with musicians you sure get that. Also everyone who cares to have an opinion thinks that Ringo was either crap, or you know, a superb drummer actually. Both camps feel like their take is the hot, anti-orthodox one.
posted by Dysk at 2:53 AM on March 16, 2022 [7 favorites]

Given the origin of Qanon from 4Chan I've often wondered how someone is staring at their computer monitor in a basement somewhere laughing at the dumb Americans who are dumb enough to believe that Trump, Putin, and Xi JinPing are combating the "Deep State" of Nazi's in Ukraine, in Taiwan, and in the US Congress.
posted by kschang at 4:03 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]

There isn't now a chorus of 'yourbandsucks' at the Beatles, eg.

Oh man, incorrect. It's not as widespread as the Bee Gees backlash but it is definitely out there. Especially once the Get Back documentary came out, demystifying a lot of their process. Wayne's World had the Bee Gees interpretation in 1991 or whatever: "Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:25 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]

(See also, in reverse: the tendency of people to defend the endlessly-maligned Monkees now)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:28 AM on March 16, 2022 [1 favorite]

What do you mean, now?!
posted by Gelatin at 8:08 AM on March 16, 2022 [4 favorites]

(See also, in reverse: the tendency of people to defend the endlessly-maligned Monkees now)

Neil Diamond wrote a bunch of excellent songs for the Monkees, and the Monkees empresario basically created the modern music/legal waters that all artists swim in, and Goin' Down is a great song written mostly by the actual Monkees. So yeah I'll defend them.

I don't really like the BeeGees though.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:52 AM on March 16, 2022 [2 favorites]

Holy shit, "Should we bomb concentration camps?" is by far the most insane Trolley Problem I've ever encountered.

We're you calling me a troll? Is it the story or just general war insanity you feel compelled to point out.
posted by clavdivs at 9:28 AM on March 16, 2022

( I'm pretty the word "trolley" here refers to the ethical thought experiment known as a Trolley Problem and not anything to do with trolling )
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:06 AM on March 16, 2022 [6 favorites]

There is also a variant of conspiracy theory, inversionism, in which some of one's own characteristics and motivations are attributed to others.

So it has a name. It fits. Something else about inversionism is the inoculation it provides. Most minds can't hold two contradictory thoughts in the same space, like a double-bind, so they short-circuit to the original version. So if the liar says it first, he gets the benefit of doubt, allowing the negative weight of the statement to stick to the wrong side.
posted by Brian B. at 10:19 AM on March 16, 2022

Ok, thanks for that ronbutnot and apologies to all for fatigue, knee jerk reaction is my sign to take a some me time.
posted by clavdivs at 10:29 AM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]

What do you mean, now?!

Sorry, I'm old, "now" just means "anytime this century" honestly.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:00 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]

I liked the Monkeys when they were cool the first time!
posted by VTX at 12:07 PM on March 16, 2022 [3 favorites]

claudius, I definitely wasn't accusing you of trolling and, as RBNS clarified, was referring to the philosophical thought experiment. Thank you for sharing that piece of history. My roommate and I had a lengthy conversation about it. That sort of information and the off-line interaction it inspired is part of why MeFi's so great
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:39 AM on March 17, 2022