Sign of the Times : MSU, Penn State and the ‘Man Cave’ Moral Dilemma
April 2, 2022 9:28 AM Subscribe
It's a bit ironic that a college that still supports boys and girls clubs (i.e. fraternities and sororities) is going to worry about the idea of man caves.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:50 AM on April 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:50 AM on April 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
a “man cave” will always sound like a gay fetish club in the woods to me
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:13 AM on April 2, 2022 [27 favorites]
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:13 AM on April 2, 2022 [27 favorites]
“Man Cave” has always stuck me as an aggressively condescending term towards men. Like, in your own house you only get one room that you feel is your own?
And what’s wrong with Den or Workshop? They don’t have the same pathetic vibe.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:28 AM on April 2, 2022 [19 favorites]
And what’s wrong with Den or Workshop? They don’t have the same pathetic vibe.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:28 AM on April 2, 2022 [19 favorites]
Why doesn't she just twitch her nose and make them go away?
posted by sexyrobot at 11:32 AM on April 2, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 11:32 AM on April 2, 2022 [24 favorites]
...it's because they've recently had their hands slapped for being inhumane monsters.
All MSU apparel, stickers, car window flags, all of it, must include a photo of Larry Nasser. Same with Penn State gear, but with Jerry Sandusky's image with it. Ohio State's gear should probably include an image of Jim Jordan if we're being fair.
posted by NoMich at 12:58 PM on April 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
All MSU apparel, stickers, car window flags, all of it, must include a photo of Larry Nasser. Same with Penn State gear, but with Jerry Sandusky's image with it. Ohio State's gear should probably include an image of Jim Jordan if we're being fair.
posted by NoMich at 12:58 PM on April 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
This plus seeing staged "Saturdays are for the boys" wedding photos, complete with new bride looking disappointed standing off to the side, are a window to an entire world of performative masculinity that is so, so foreign to me. But performative masculinity signaled through anodyne suburban interior design.
posted by thecjm at 2:42 PM on April 2, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 2:42 PM on April 2, 2022 [11 favorites]
This is pretty interesting. I mean, it's also pretty grim. Capitalism just does whatever the ever living fuck and happily capitalizes on misogyny, but also happily pivots if something else pays as much or more. Capitalism is just this horrific algorithm for extracting wealth and flows unhesitatingly through whichever cultural channels exist to flow down, including the dreadful ones. What a horror.
Anyhow, when my femme wife who hadn't lived with a partner before first moved in to the flat I lived in, we ended up sharing a room, but so she could have a little space she took over a smaller, side bedroom which we named her "lady cave". We subsequently moved into a new house but we both still miss her having the lady cave, especially since COVID when I kind of took over the guest room as my work-from-home misery cave.
posted by latkes at 3:08 PM on April 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Anyhow, when my femme wife who hadn't lived with a partner before first moved in to the flat I lived in, we ended up sharing a room, but so she could have a little space she took over a smaller, side bedroom which we named her "lady cave". We subsequently moved into a new house but we both still miss her having the lady cave, especially since COVID when I kind of took over the guest room as my work-from-home misery cave.
posted by latkes at 3:08 PM on April 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
“Man Cave” has always stuck me as an aggressively condescending term towards men. Like, in your own house you only get one room that you feel is your own?
And what’s wrong with Den or Workshop? They don’t have the same pathetic vibe.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:28 AM on April 2 [9 favorites +] [!]
But this narrative is actually a stupid attack on women: Women obviously control the domestic space with their "basic hygiene" and "nice furniture" and "children" or whatever, so the man is forced into this tiny space - the only space he can be his caveman self - because he's so oppressed by her supposed dominance.
I do think this intersects with a weird narrative in like, Girl Power style pseudo-feminism, where men are coded as like, big, dumb oafs. I remember watching Brave & Wreck It Ralph around the same time and noticing that the only acceptable role for a 'good' man in this universe was a big, dumb, but nice man. Would like to read some theory on this actually.
posted by latkes at 3:12 PM on April 2, 2022 [11 favorites]
And what’s wrong with Den or Workshop? They don’t have the same pathetic vibe.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:28 AM on April 2 [9 favorites +] [!]
But this narrative is actually a stupid attack on women: Women obviously control the domestic space with their "basic hygiene" and "nice furniture" and "children" or whatever, so the man is forced into this tiny space - the only space he can be his caveman self - because he's so oppressed by her supposed dominance.
I do think this intersects with a weird narrative in like, Girl Power style pseudo-feminism, where men are coded as like, big, dumb oafs. I remember watching Brave & Wreck It Ralph around the same time and noticing that the only acceptable role for a 'good' man in this universe was a big, dumb, but nice man. Would like to read some theory on this actually.
posted by latkes at 3:12 PM on April 2, 2022 [11 favorites]
“Man Cave” has always stuck me as an aggressively condescending term towards men. Like, in your own house you only get one room that you feel is your own?
Well, you hardly ever see "Girl Caves" where women can keep their collections or do their hobbies. Or a lot of the time if you do, it's a tiny little nook tucked under the stairs or behind a door or something else with not much space and no real privacy.
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 3:44 PM on April 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, you hardly ever see "Girl Caves" where women can keep their collections or do their hobbies.
Those are often called She Sheds.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:53 PM on April 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
Those are often called She Sheds.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:53 PM on April 2, 2022 [9 favorites]
I don't mind the term "mancave"...although I don't have one. How do the women here feel about "she shed"?
posted by Czjewel at 4:07 PM on April 2, 2022
posted by Czjewel at 4:07 PM on April 2, 2022
I'd call mine the studio - because it's likely to be filled with art and books, and my power tools live in the garage or actual shed.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:51 PM on April 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by geek anachronism at 5:51 PM on April 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
IMO it is only a man cave if the man is the one who cleans and vacuums it.
posted by srboisvert at 6:04 PM on April 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 6:04 PM on April 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
Man Cave” has always stuck me as an aggressively condescending term towards men. Like, in your own house you only get one room that you feel is your own?
And what’s wrong with Den or Workshop? They don’t have the same pathetic vibe.
The main activity of a workshop is production. Of a den, relaxation. But of a man cave? Consumption: decorating, eating, watching, etc.
Which of those three has the most profit potential?
posted by Ndwright at 7:22 PM on April 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
And what’s wrong with Den or Workshop? They don’t have the same pathetic vibe.
The main activity of a workshop is production. Of a den, relaxation. But of a man cave? Consumption: decorating, eating, watching, etc.
Which of those three has the most profit potential?
posted by Ndwright at 7:22 PM on April 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don’t buy the idea that a man having a space set aside in the house somehow indicates that a woman doesn’t have a space aside for her. In my house it was the workshop and the sewing room — she didn’t rearrange my tools, I didn’t even look sideways at her scissors, everyone went to bed happy.
Having separate spaces for hobbies is something I recommend for everyone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:18 PM on April 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Having separate spaces for hobbies is something I recommend for everyone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:18 PM on April 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Two separate threads going here. The "Man Cave" sign was/is creepy. good on the licensing director for catching that given MSUs sex abuse scandals. I am sure there are lots of other cruddy merchandise out there. I do think we have a toxic culture around sports generally. I remember shirts being sold at under-12s soccer torments with slogans like "soccer is life" "winning is everything" etc. Not to get into toxic fandom (And I have attended a few major conference college football rivalry games)
On the second part I also find the "man cave" idea kinda gross, but I don't know anyone with a dedicated sports watching room. Mostly the guys watching sports just hog the main TV in the house. I do know guys with woodshops/ sheds/ garages with tools for doing things/ hobbies that may have a beer fridge and maybe a small TV. I also know a lot of a decent number of households (mostly woman) with craft/sewing rooms. Keeping hobby items separate makes a lot of sense, but they don't need to strongly gendered.
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:11 PM on April 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
On the second part I also find the "man cave" idea kinda gross, but I don't know anyone with a dedicated sports watching room. Mostly the guys watching sports just hog the main TV in the house. I do know guys with woodshops/ sheds/ garages with tools for doing things/ hobbies that may have a beer fridge and maybe a small TV. I also know a lot of a decent number of households (mostly woman) with craft/sewing rooms. Keeping hobby items separate makes a lot of sense, but they don't need to strongly gendered.
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:11 PM on April 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
Ok, on further thought I remember by grandmother had her sewing room, but my grandfather had both a room in the house full of model trains, Playboys, national geographic, and albums. that was "Grandpa's library." No TV, but he would sit in there and look at his magazines or listen to albums. He wasn't a sports fan, but that would clearly fit into the man cave definition.
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:16 PM on April 2, 2022
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:16 PM on April 2, 2022
Realtor opportunity : She sells she sheds and boy is she sore.
posted by johnjohn4011 at 12:06 AM on April 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by johnjohn4011 at 12:06 AM on April 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
The main activity of a workshop is production. Of a den, relaxation. But of a man cave? Consumption: decorating, eating, watching, etc.
Not going to defend the concept of the man-cave and its associated baggage, but the distinction to something like "den" sounds like sophistry to me. "Decorating, eating, watching" is what a lot of people do for relaxation. A consumption element makes relaxation more expensive, but not necessarily less relaxing. It's nice (and cheaper! and more environmentally friendly!) if some people don't need any materialist component to achieve the effect, and they're surely more enlightened and spiritually enriched for it, but I take the pragmatic view - whatever works, works.
Generally speaking I don't see any problem whatsoever with a designated hobby room, as long as the space in a house is fairly divided. Ideally everyone should get a "room of ones'own" - it's just the pattern that women are often denied that, which might make the man-cave thing galling. Also, the gendered language and the whole hurr-durr-caveman stick, that's obnoxious.
posted by sohalt at 1:39 AM on April 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not going to defend the concept of the man-cave and its associated baggage, but the distinction to something like "den" sounds like sophistry to me. "Decorating, eating, watching" is what a lot of people do for relaxation. A consumption element makes relaxation more expensive, but not necessarily less relaxing. It's nice (and cheaper! and more environmentally friendly!) if some people don't need any materialist component to achieve the effect, and they're surely more enlightened and spiritually enriched for it, but I take the pragmatic view - whatever works, works.
Generally speaking I don't see any problem whatsoever with a designated hobby room, as long as the space in a house is fairly divided. Ideally everyone should get a "room of ones'own" - it's just the pattern that women are often denied that, which might make the man-cave thing galling. Also, the gendered language and the whole hurr-durr-caveman stick, that's obnoxious.
posted by sohalt at 1:39 AM on April 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Some good discussion on the man-cave previously on the blue.
posted by gauche at 3:36 AM on April 3, 2022
posted by gauche at 3:36 AM on April 3, 2022
the distinction to something like "den" sounds like sophistry to me
Oh it must certainly is. I was going for short and punchy with that comment and a long discourse on "den vs. mancave" wouldn't fit.
posted by Ndwright at 4:30 AM on April 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh it must certainly is. I was going for short and punchy with that comment and a long discourse on "den vs. mancave" wouldn't fit.
posted by Ndwright at 4:30 AM on April 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I agree there are two different discussions going on here. When Virginia Woolf wrote “A Room of One’s Own” it was breakthrough for a reason, and it still holds up - women (and now parents, I don’t think this needs to be so gendered today) with children should have an isolated space in the home where they can shut the door and do their hobbies and just be, and if someone wants in they have to knock and be let in (or not). No one likes having the bathroom being their only place of respite from the kids (if you even get that). Men (of means) always used to have their study. Women rarely did. Meanwhile throughout history there were men’s spaces where women weren’t admitted (often pubs and clubs) and women’s spaces where men weren’t welcome (often nurseries and kitchens).
And I think that’s the big difference - that those men’s spaces were places of power, where keeping women (plural) out was part of maintaining that power and threatening any woman (singular) who dared to try and say she deserved a place inside, while women’s spaces (plural) were seen as domestic and unimportant, and a man could walk in if he chose, unwelcome or not.
The “cave” isn’t the point. The “what happens here stays here” / “you’re not allowed here” essentialist power is.
posted by Mchelly at 5:55 AM on April 3, 2022 [15 favorites]
And I think that’s the big difference - that those men’s spaces were places of power, where keeping women (plural) out was part of maintaining that power and threatening any woman (singular) who dared to try and say she deserved a place inside, while women’s spaces (plural) were seen as domestic and unimportant, and a man could walk in if he chose, unwelcome or not.
The “cave” isn’t the point. The “what happens here stays here” / “you’re not allowed here” essentialist power is.
posted by Mchelly at 5:55 AM on April 3, 2022 [15 favorites]
Interesting. I think it's good the schools are at least paying some attention. I struggle to distinguish between what I dislike about the word man-cave and the people who use it and what I dislike about football in general and college football in particular. But, it can't possibly hurt to separate the two things.
I'm still pissed at the Star Trek Discovery writers for using "man cave" in a script. (To be fair, a script that had even more fundamental flaws.) In the the egalitarian 23rd century, in a world where ensigns on ships get bedrooms larger than my apartment, the idea that the phrase would be meaningful to anybody shows a real failure of imagination.
That said, having a space to oneself is useful, if you leave out the gendered bit. If men who own racehorses have smoking parlors, it's not surprising men who watch football have an equivalent. If their wives and kids also had private spaces, I'm not sure it would be a bad thing, even if it has a stupid name.
posted by eotvos at 7:27 AM on April 3, 2022
I'm still pissed at the Star Trek Discovery writers for using "man cave" in a script. (To be fair, a script that had even more fundamental flaws.) In the the egalitarian 23rd century, in a world where ensigns on ships get bedrooms larger than my apartment, the idea that the phrase would be meaningful to anybody shows a real failure of imagination.
That said, having a space to oneself is useful, if you leave out the gendered bit. If men who own racehorses have smoking parlors, it's not surprising men who watch football have an equivalent. If their wives and kids also had private spaces, I'm not sure it would be a bad thing, even if it has a stupid name.
posted by eotvos at 7:27 AM on April 3, 2022
but I don't know anyone with a dedicated sports watching room.
I have some friends, not at all sports people, who used to live in east lansing, and I have the impression that it was incredibly common for real estate to have a room aimed at this there (iirc the house they owned for a while came with one). I'm not sure from the real estate pictures how gendered they are in practice, though it seems pretty plausible that the answer would be "a lot" -- so I'd guess the licensing company was directly targeting an existing market with this stuff.
posted by advil at 8:01 AM on April 3, 2022
I have some friends, not at all sports people, who used to live in east lansing, and I have the impression that it was incredibly common for real estate to have a room aimed at this there (iirc the house they owned for a while came with one). I'm not sure from the real estate pictures how gendered they are in practice, though it seems pretty plausible that the answer would be "a lot" -- so I'd guess the licensing company was directly targeting an existing market with this stuff.
posted by advil at 8:01 AM on April 3, 2022
No bud hole jokes yet? MetaFilter, I am disappoint.
posted by snwod at 8:06 AM on April 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by snwod at 8:06 AM on April 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
No bud hole jokes yet? MetaFilter, I am disappoint.
If you want a sophomoric joke in the thread, go ahead and make one directly, instead of complaining that no-one’s done it for you.
posted by zamboni at 9:44 AM on April 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you want a sophomoric joke in the thread, go ahead and make one directly, instead of complaining that no-one’s done it for you.
posted by zamboni at 9:44 AM on April 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think part of the "man cave" vs "den" thing is that a "man cave" is a space set aside specifically for things that are somehow inappropriate to do in a shared-gender space. It's explicitly hanging up a "BOYZ ONLY - GIRLS STAY OUT" sign on the door.
I have noticed a significant overlap—not 100%, I'll admit, but I'd bet there's a pretty significant correlation—between dudes who have "man caves" and dudes who complain bitterly about their wives, lament their lost singleton youth, still have their varsity letter jackets, and/or give out bad advice to younger men like "don't ever get married if you like having sex! Hahahaha". (Like, why are you even married, bro?)
In a former home, my partner and I turned an unused, windowless, illegal bedroom (billed as a "den") into a home theater with a nice DLP projector and some inherited hifi equipment. And a kegerator, because I got it on clearance and hate bottling my own homebrew. It was pretty nice! But periodically people would come over and be like "whoa, you have a man cave!" and I'd have to decide if it was worth explaining that, no actually, my wife watches most of the TV and nearly all the live sports, and likes drinking beer as much as I do, and she was the one who went out and got the projector and the 160" screen, not me. But yeah, sure, I guess it is kinda 'cave-y'.
But this was at what looks in retrospect to be the cultural peak of the Man Cave, around perhaps 2005-2010 (?), and I'm happy that it seems to be going by the wayside.
I can't really think of many physical spaces that benefit from being gendered, outside of stuff like locker rooms where it's prohibitively expensive to renovate them in a way that makes more sense. (But in the long run, it'd be real cool if we stopped building them in a way that assumes everyone is cool with getting naked in front of people just because they have the same innie/outie bits.) If you like watching football, have a Football Room or whatever. And maybe consider, I dunno, marrying someone who shares some of your interests or something.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:37 PM on April 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I have noticed a significant overlap—not 100%, I'll admit, but I'd bet there's a pretty significant correlation—between dudes who have "man caves" and dudes who complain bitterly about their wives, lament their lost singleton youth, still have their varsity letter jackets, and/or give out bad advice to younger men like "don't ever get married if you like having sex! Hahahaha". (Like, why are you even married, bro?)
In a former home, my partner and I turned an unused, windowless, illegal bedroom (billed as a "den") into a home theater with a nice DLP projector and some inherited hifi equipment. And a kegerator, because I got it on clearance and hate bottling my own homebrew. It was pretty nice! But periodically people would come over and be like "whoa, you have a man cave!" and I'd have to decide if it was worth explaining that, no actually, my wife watches most of the TV and nearly all the live sports, and likes drinking beer as much as I do, and she was the one who went out and got the projector and the 160" screen, not me. But yeah, sure, I guess it is kinda 'cave-y'.
But this was at what looks in retrospect to be the cultural peak of the Man Cave, around perhaps 2005-2010 (?), and I'm happy that it seems to be going by the wayside.
I can't really think of many physical spaces that benefit from being gendered, outside of stuff like locker rooms where it's prohibitively expensive to renovate them in a way that makes more sense. (But in the long run, it'd be real cool if we stopped building them in a way that assumes everyone is cool with getting naked in front of people just because they have the same innie/outie bits.) If you like watching football, have a Football Room or whatever. And maybe consider, I dunno, marrying someone who shares some of your interests or something.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:37 PM on April 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've always thought that a couple ought to have rooms for each to use as a personal space, to each their own: whether as den, office, library, craft room, art studio, laboratory, whatever. Space allowing of course, perhaps function occasionally as guest room, be in garage or basement; doesn't need to be cleaned up due to dinnertime, visitors, etc. Not entirely clear to me why this has to be gendered; it certainly should reflect needs.
posted by lathrop at 11:57 AM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by lathrop at 11:57 AM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd love to have a woman cave. I don't know why it's presumed caves are only for men.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:53 PM on April 5, 2022
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:53 PM on April 5, 2022
I don't know why it's presumed caves are only for men.
I does seem counterintuitive. Classically you'd expect women to have the caves men to have trees.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:32 PM on April 5, 2022
I does seem counterintuitive. Classically you'd expect women to have the caves men to have trees.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:32 PM on April 5, 2022
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