"Do you know how insane that sounds in this courtroom today?"
July 29, 2022 12:59 PM Subscribe
This week in Texas, after months of stonewalling, a summary judgment that had the legal community in astonishment, and an attempt to make an end run around the courts via bankruptcy law, peddler of conspiracy theories and supplements both of dubious quality Alex Jones is finally in court to determine the damages he owes Sandy Hook parents Neil Heslin and Scarlett Lewis for defaming them over the death of their 6 year old son in one of the bloodiest massacres in American history. And if you are imagining that this trial is going to be be a three ring circus with Jones as the ringmaster - you have no idea.
Jones initially tried to portray himself as the victim, a political prisoner being subjected to a sham trial. Needless to say, this did not ingratiate him to the judge. Outside the court, Jones' lawyer flipped off opposing counsel - something that lawyers are Not Supposed To Do.
Things did not improve the next day.
Thursday, the plaintiffs put on the stand Infowars producer Daria Karpova, who proceeded to own goal her side with a Megyn Kelly interview which showed Jones' callousness not only over Sandy Hook but other incidents like the Manchester bombing. Karpova also called for sympathy for Jones, who she said was stressed out over people "telling lies" about him in public.
This thread's title is the response by the plaintiff's lawyer.
After Karpova, it was time for Jones co-host and 1/6 coup participant Owen Shroyer to take the stand. Highlights include using footage of Shroyer and Jones broadcasting while Jones' lawyer was making his opening statement to put the lie to Jones' claims of being "kicked off the internet", a discussion of the various products shilled by the two, and Shroyer admitting that there is no excuse for defamation. The biggest blow came at the end when Shroyer admitted that in contravention of the judge's orders, he and Jones had discussed the case on the show.
The trial continues today.
Jones initially tried to portray himself as the victim, a political prisoner being subjected to a sham trial. Needless to say, this did not ingratiate him to the judge. Outside the court, Jones' lawyer flipped off opposing counsel - something that lawyers are Not Supposed To Do.
Things did not improve the next day.
Thursday, the plaintiffs put on the stand Infowars producer Daria Karpova, who proceeded to own goal her side with a Megyn Kelly interview which showed Jones' callousness not only over Sandy Hook but other incidents like the Manchester bombing. Karpova also called for sympathy for Jones, who she said was stressed out over people "telling lies" about him in public.
This thread's title is the response by the plaintiff's lawyer.
After Karpova, it was time for Jones co-host and 1/6 coup participant Owen Shroyer to take the stand. Highlights include using footage of Shroyer and Jones broadcasting while Jones' lawyer was making his opening statement to put the lie to Jones' claims of being "kicked off the internet", a discussion of the various products shilled by the two, and Shroyer admitting that there is no excuse for defamation. The biggest blow came at the end when Shroyer admitted that in contravention of the judge's orders, he and Jones had discussed the case on the show.
The trial continues today.
If you're wondering how today went, here's a commentary on today's proceedings.
Reader, it did not get better for the defense.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
Reader, it did not get better for the defense.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
There's someone livetweeting the "highlights".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am so excited to get to sit and listen to the Knowledge Fight podcast episodes on this one. The episodes they've done on Jones' depositions in his assorted lawsuits, sometimes with commentary from the plaintiff lawyers, are fucking hilarious.
posted by sciatrix at 1:18 PM on July 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 1:18 PM on July 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
Karpova also called for sympathy for Jones, who she said was stressed out over people "telling lies" about him in public.
Bless his heart.
posted by flabdablet at 1:21 PM on July 29, 2022 [32 favorites]
Bless his heart.
posted by flabdablet at 1:21 PM on July 29, 2022 [32 favorites]
Speaking of right wing lunatics waiting for their day in court in Texas, when is Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton finally going to go to trial for his securities fraud indictment from 2015? They need to get that over with before the FBI investigation starting in 2020 for accepting bribes. Presumably the state bar lawsuit against him for misconduct is third in line.
posted by Nelson at 1:29 PM on July 29, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 1:29 PM on July 29, 2022 [22 favorites]
I love the jury questions to the defense witnesses:
"Is the judge a paid actor?"
"Is the jury paid actors?"
posted by coberh at 1:32 PM on July 29, 2022 [27 favorites]
"Is the judge a paid actor?"
"Is the jury paid actors?"
posted by coberh at 1:32 PM on July 29, 2022 [27 favorites]
Jones will come out of this with a large following of people who will still listen to him and give him money. I mean, am I wrong? He'll say "you saw it, the Deep State Crisis Actors took my money" and he'll be rich and coked-up and running his mouth again before the sun goes down. I would love to be wrong about this.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:04 PM on July 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:04 PM on July 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
I would love to be wrong about this.
This is only the first trial - he has another one he's facing in Connecticut as well. In addition, he got a "death penalty judgment" - a summary judgment against him due to flaunting discovery - in that trial as well, so the only question is how much will he pay there as well. He's also been deplatformed, and while he can still get his message out through his own website, his reach has been lessened by losing access to YouTube and other websites. Furthermore, the plaintiffs have well documented how he has attempted to squirrel away money from them.
Jones isn't acting like a man confident he can weather this. He's acting like these trials will ruin him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:20 PM on July 29, 2022 [18 favorites]
This is only the first trial - he has another one he's facing in Connecticut as well. In addition, he got a "death penalty judgment" - a summary judgment against him due to flaunting discovery - in that trial as well, so the only question is how much will he pay there as well. He's also been deplatformed, and while he can still get his message out through his own website, his reach has been lessened by losing access to YouTube and other websites. Furthermore, the plaintiffs have well documented how he has attempted to squirrel away money from them.
Jones isn't acting like a man confident he can weather this. He's acting like these trials will ruin him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:20 PM on July 29, 2022 [18 favorites]
The biggest blow came at the end when Shroyer admitted that in contravention of the judge's orders, he and Jones had discussed the case on the show.
Because I do listen to Knowledge Fight, I did tune in for the end of the live stream yesterday as I was wrapping up some work, just in time to hear the judge, stone cold, tear a gigantic strip off both Shoyer and Andino Reynal, Jones' defence attorney. In Reynal's case, it was for his failure to instruct witnesses about the rule that they couldn't do that. He fucked up big time.
Jordan Holmes of Knowledge Fight has been profanely live tweeting it as well from the courtroom (i.e., when he says "Shitball," he's referring to Reynal.
I mean, am I wrong?
He's been grifting so long that you're probably right in that he's guaranteed to try to have another go at it (it's who and what he is, after all, and there's always money in the evergreen scam that is supplement sales) but this isn't going to make it easier for him to incite violence and make money off the people he incites.
But this is, as I understand it very disastrous for him in that the jury's only job is to figure out how financially damaging it's going to be, and Jones' legal counsel is doing the very opposite of helping him based on what I've heard and read so far.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:27 PM on July 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
Because I do listen to Knowledge Fight, I did tune in for the end of the live stream yesterday as I was wrapping up some work, just in time to hear the judge, stone cold, tear a gigantic strip off both Shoyer and Andino Reynal, Jones' defence attorney. In Reynal's case, it was for his failure to instruct witnesses about the rule that they couldn't do that. He fucked up big time.
Jordan Holmes of Knowledge Fight has been profanely live tweeting it as well from the courtroom (i.e., when he says "Shitball," he's referring to Reynal.
I mean, am I wrong?
He's been grifting so long that you're probably right in that he's guaranteed to try to have another go at it (it's who and what he is, after all, and there's always money in the evergreen scam that is supplement sales) but this isn't going to make it easier for him to incite violence and make money off the people he incites.
But this is, as I understand it very disastrous for him in that the jury's only job is to figure out how financially damaging it's going to be, and Jones' legal counsel is doing the very opposite of helping him based on what I've heard and read so far.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:27 PM on July 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
Also, Jones has made many public comments over the last few months about how he's going about trying to hide money from the Sandy Hook families. He may be committed to his bullshit, but he's a very, very stupid person.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:29 PM on July 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:29 PM on July 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Someone needs to tell Bill Hicks that his little prank has gotten way out of hand.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:37 PM on July 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:37 PM on July 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
In Reynal's case, it was for his failure to instruct witnesses about the rule that they couldn't do that. He fucked up big time.
He didn't just not advise his client properly, but when caught out on it addressed the judge in a smarmy manner.
This is something you just do not do, like stepping on Superman's cape or whizzing on the electric fence.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:38 PM on July 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
He didn't just not advise his client properly, but when caught out on it addressed the judge in a smarmy manner.
This is something you just do not do, like stepping on Superman's cape or whizzing on the electric fence.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:38 PM on July 29, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also, Jones has made many public comments over the last few months about how he's going about trying to hide money from the Sandy Hook families. He may be committed to his bullshit, but he's a very, very stupid person.
In response, the families hired forensic accountants. Who made it clear that they were tracing the money.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:40 PM on July 29, 2022 [21 favorites]
In response, the families hired forensic accountants. Who made it clear that they were tracing the money.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:40 PM on July 29, 2022 [21 favorites]
Jones will come out of this with a large following of people who will still listen to him and give him money
I'm ignorant. Is there a way that the court can just take all that money (for the next few decades) and give it to the people he wronged? Then go ahead -- raise more money!
posted by thandal at 2:43 PM on July 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm ignorant. Is there a way that the court can just take all that money (for the next few decades) and give it to the people he wronged? Then go ahead -- raise more money!
posted by thandal at 2:43 PM on July 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
As already mentioned, I cannot recommend the Knowledge Fight podcast enough, and Jordan (co-host) is live-tweeting all of his screams.
I've been completely riveted by this trial all week. To say that it's unprecedented would be selling it short.
posted by rp at 2:45 PM on July 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've been completely riveted by this trial all week. To say that it's unprecedented would be selling it short.
posted by rp at 2:45 PM on July 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
So the criticism is stressing him?
That is dangerous.
Could cause a heart attack.
You hate to see it.
posted by aiq at 2:59 PM on July 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
That is dangerous.
Could cause a heart attack.
You hate to see it.
posted by aiq at 2:59 PM on July 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
How are his consequences so slow to arrive and have so little impact on his life? If I did anything one tenth as monstrous as this twat my life would be completely, instantly ruined by blow-back.
posted by krisjohn at 3:25 PM on July 29, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 3:25 PM on July 29, 2022 [28 favorites]
How are his consequences so slow to arrive and have so little impact on his life? If I did anything one tenth as monstrous as this twat my life would be completely, instantly ruined by blow-back.
Welcome to the corrosive side of free speech "absolutism". People have been giving his hate and paranoia passes for years, from "it's just a bit" to "free speech means letting Jones publicly defame people." And they kept on doing it while his vile lies meant that people who lost their children in meaningless slaughter now had to hide in fear for their own lives.
And now free speech "absolutists" pine over the fact that people are rejecting their positions, failing to grasp that people are done with putting bigotry over people.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:37 PM on July 29, 2022 [26 favorites]
Welcome to the corrosive side of free speech "absolutism". People have been giving his hate and paranoia passes for years, from "it's just a bit" to "free speech means letting Jones publicly defame people." And they kept on doing it while his vile lies meant that people who lost their children in meaningless slaughter now had to hide in fear for their own lives.
And now free speech "absolutists" pine over the fact that people are rejecting their positions, failing to grasp that people are done with putting bigotry over people.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:37 PM on July 29, 2022 [26 favorites]
Also, I have to respect the strategy of the plaintiff's lawyer by repeating the phrase "lawyers that lie deserve to lose." The jurors are going to remember that.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:39 PM on July 29, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:39 PM on July 29, 2022 [15 favorites]
I think it’s a combination of the right going “yeah, he says the things we know are true!” and the general “so fucking tired of this shit” from everyone who has sanity.
With all the political crap going on, “The Overripe Tomato That Squats Like A Toad” Alex Jones is barely an issue. However, seeing him taking every hit and hopefully losing everything soon makes my blackened heart think two things:
With all the political crap going on, “The Overripe Tomato That Squats Like A Toad” Alex Jones is barely an issue. However, seeing him taking every hit and hopefully losing everything soon makes my blackened heart think two things:
- Good!
- Please let Trump or Gaetz or McConnell or some other right-wing fucknut be the next in the coffee grinder.
If I did anything one tenth as monstrous as this twat
Jones has a lot of fans. There are a lot of people who don't think what he's doing is monstrous at all. They either actually believe what he's saying or are in a non-rational mindset where they aren't really evaluating truth or reality of, say, the Sandy Hook mass murder. Instead they are simply upset that people are criticizing their love of assault rifles and so are all for the shouty guy who tells the world the shooting was all a hoax.
It's a mistake to think all Americans are thinking rationally or morally. A lot of them like what Jones does. Also they find him entertaining. They certainly don't find him monstrous. And there are a scary number of them. Enough that Trump did an interview with Jones in 2015 as part of his campaigning. That interview helped Trump win the primary and ultimately get elected.
posted by Nelson at 4:00 PM on July 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
Jones has a lot of fans. There are a lot of people who don't think what he's doing is monstrous at all. They either actually believe what he's saying or are in a non-rational mindset where they aren't really evaluating truth or reality of, say, the Sandy Hook mass murder. Instead they are simply upset that people are criticizing their love of assault rifles and so are all for the shouty guy who tells the world the shooting was all a hoax.
It's a mistake to think all Americans are thinking rationally or morally. A lot of them like what Jones does. Also they find him entertaining. They certainly don't find him monstrous. And there are a scary number of them. Enough that Trump did an interview with Jones in 2015 as part of his campaigning. That interview helped Trump win the primary and ultimately get elected.
posted by Nelson at 4:00 PM on July 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
If I did anything one tenth as monstrous as this twat my life would be completely, instantly ruined by blow-back.
Feel thankful that your life is full of people who like you because you don't do horrible things, instead of being in your life and liking you because you do.
posted by clawsoon at 4:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [23 favorites]
Feel thankful that your life is full of people who like you because you don't do horrible things, instead of being in your life and liking you because you do.
posted by clawsoon at 4:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [23 favorites]
And in trying to hide the money moves, Jones has taken two steps today:
First, he's filed for bankruptcy for Free Speech Systems, the holding company for Infowars.
Second, he's filed in CT courts to have FSS indemnify him for any damages in the CT trial after siphoning the money out of it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:17 PM on July 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
First, he's filed for bankruptcy for Free Speech Systems, the holding company for Infowars.
Second, he's filed in CT courts to have FSS indemnify him for any damages in the CT trial after siphoning the money out of it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:17 PM on July 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
After we're done stressing him out with getting sued into a morbillion pieces, I think would like to see him pursued by ravenous hyenas and jackals across some dry, dusty African plains for a few decades.
Not actually eaten, mind you. I wouldn't want to do that to the hyenas and jackals.
But relentlessly pursued and harassed, perhaps arranged so that he is provided with all the food and water he can carry every day, carefully supplied with fresh shoes and clothes as needed - but ultimately never resting, constantly harassed and nipped at and occasionally bitten in tender places and always running.
posted by loquacious at 5:55 PM on July 29, 2022 [19 favorites]
Not actually eaten, mind you. I wouldn't want to do that to the hyenas and jackals.
But relentlessly pursued and harassed, perhaps arranged so that he is provided with all the food and water he can carry every day, carefully supplied with fresh shoes and clothes as needed - but ultimately never resting, constantly harassed and nipped at and occasionally bitten in tender places and always running.
posted by loquacious at 5:55 PM on July 29, 2022 [19 favorites]
I think my favorite part of this entire spectacle is that the (current) lawsuit is happening in Texas, which I'm guessing gave Jones some unearned confidence re: the jury pool. But apparently Texas has RIDICULOUS procedures governing juries--they get to write and submit their own questions of witnesses. In most cases, I'm guessing this results in a completely uncontrollable shitshow. In this one case, though, it feels like just the right level of "hoisted by his own petard," as Jones and the press discover that this particular jury has at least one very educated, possibly-crazy person on it who has no compunctions asking questions that would otherwise get bounced by one side's attorneys.
The jury, acting in its official capacity as a constitutionally-mandated body of citizens weighing evidence to determine guilt in a civil case (or, more precisely, weighing evidence to figure out how much Alex Jones owes the plaintiffs) actually posed the question, "Will you state under oath that you are not a lizard person who works for the globalists? What is the goal of people who talk about globalist plots?"
I don't... I can't... I'm not sure if this single juror is brilliant or insane or both, but he or she is 100% the juror we deserve in this, the worst timeline.
posted by Mayor West at 6:10 PM on July 29, 2022 [54 favorites]
The jury, acting in its official capacity as a constitutionally-mandated body of citizens weighing evidence to determine guilt in a civil case (or, more precisely, weighing evidence to figure out how much Alex Jones owes the plaintiffs) actually posed the question, "Will you state under oath that you are not a lizard person who works for the globalists? What is the goal of people who talk about globalist plots?"
I don't... I can't... I'm not sure if this single juror is brilliant or insane or both, but he or she is 100% the juror we deserve in this, the worst timeline.
posted by Mayor West at 6:10 PM on July 29, 2022 [54 favorites]
Hyenas would totally get him and eat his flesh. Hope they don’t catch something from his infected flesh.
posted by Windopaene at 6:12 PM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 6:12 PM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Re: the written questions from the jury - just to clarify, the witness wasn't asked about being a globalist-employed lizard person. These questions are submitted to the judge, who goes through them with the lawyers without the jury/witness present. The judge can dismiss questions that don't make sense or are outside of the expertise of the witness (or are jokes), and the lawyers also have a chance to raise objections to particular questions. So not necessarily an uncontrollable shitshow. And I don't believe the jury members are allowed to consult with each other about the questions they submit. (Not a legal expert, so please correct me if I'm wrong.)
I'm kind of enjoying at least one of them having some fun, though. And it's been an interesting way to get an insight into what some of the jury members are thinking.
I'm furious, though, that at least one of them apparently has some concerns about personal safety serving on the jury. They're probably not wrong to be worried, too. I wouldn't be too surprised to see one of the alternates seated before this is over.
posted by Salieri at 6:48 PM on July 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm kind of enjoying at least one of them having some fun, though. And it's been an interesting way to get an insight into what some of the jury members are thinking.
I'm furious, though, that at least one of them apparently has some concerns about personal safety serving on the jury. They're probably not wrong to be worried, too. I wouldn't be too surprised to see one of the alternates seated before this is over.
posted by Salieri at 6:48 PM on July 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
Jones isn't acting like a man confident he can weather this. He's acting like these trials will ruin him.
I have the feeling that "ruining him" will mean he has to settle for a standard of living that is commensurate with mine. And I am supporting a family of 5 in a level of comfort that is nicer than a lot of yours, and which I openly state makes me disinclined to bitch and moan.
Can we make "ruin" mean something again please?
posted by ocschwar at 7:03 PM on July 29, 2022 [18 favorites]
I have the feeling that "ruining him" will mean he has to settle for a standard of living that is commensurate with mine. And I am supporting a family of 5 in a level of comfort that is nicer than a lot of yours, and which I openly state makes me disinclined to bitch and moan.
Can we make "ruin" mean something again please?
posted by ocschwar at 7:03 PM on July 29, 2022 [18 favorites]
It will never not make me laugh that Alex Jones is only 48 years old. Being the devil incarnate sure ages ya!
posted by sucre at 7:05 PM on July 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by sucre at 7:05 PM on July 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Knowledge Fight episode with their interview of plaintiff attorney and petty king Bill Ogden, who is now my personal deposition hero.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on July 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on July 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
i wish i could delight in this. but the evil in this world is so great and so foul, and his part in it so absolute, that it just hurts. that this man has been able to harm so many, for so long, and has been championed for it? my heart is too heavy for glee. i simply want him erased. and the people who enable him? i want them to live - in hopeless shame.
posted by lapolla at 7:36 PM on July 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by lapolla at 7:36 PM on July 29, 2022 [11 favorites]
Owen Shroyer is like the Snow White to Martin Shkreli’s Rose Red in terms of punchability.
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 8:15 PM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
The "because Texas" snark about juries asking questions is unearned. Some things I learned today:
It is not unique to Texas, and is becoming more common around the country.
Some recent case studies suggest allowing jurors to ask question, especially of expert witnesses, decreases the likelihood of verdicts based on poor understanding of the evidence.(1, 2)
various state practices:
Arizona, Florida, and Kentucky: laws that require judges allow jurors to ask written questions.
Indiana and Kentucky: high courts ruled jurors have a right to ask questions of witnesses.
Pennsylvania and Michigan: high courts ruled it is at judge's discretion.
Arkansas, Iowa, Nevada and North Carolina encourage judges to allow jurors to submit questions.
Texas: does NOT permit jurors to question witnesses in criminal trials.
Mississippi: only(?) state with laws expressly forbidding jurors from questioning witnesses.
In all situations, any questions have to go through at least the judge for approval (and probably also the prosecution & defense teams as well).
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:16 PM on July 29, 2022 [22 favorites]
It is not unique to Texas, and is becoming more common around the country.
Some recent case studies suggest allowing jurors to ask question, especially of expert witnesses, decreases the likelihood of verdicts based on poor understanding of the evidence.(1, 2)
various state practices:
Arizona, Florida, and Kentucky: laws that require judges allow jurors to ask written questions.
Indiana and Kentucky: high courts ruled jurors have a right to ask questions of witnesses.
Pennsylvania and Michigan: high courts ruled it is at judge's discretion.
Arkansas, Iowa, Nevada and North Carolina encourage judges to allow jurors to submit questions.
Texas: does NOT permit jurors to question witnesses in criminal trials.
Mississippi: only(?) state with laws expressly forbidding jurors from questioning witnesses.
In all situations, any questions have to go through at least the judge for approval (and probably also the prosecution & defense teams as well).
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:16 PM on July 29, 2022 [22 favorites]
He's a bullshit artist. That's his superpower. Knowledge Fight noticed this week after seeing him in court, he can behave himself. He looks calm and composed, nothing like the red faced blowhard you know. But he can turn it on in a second. It's a performance, he's been practicing it for decades and it's earning him fifty fucking million dollars a year. He 'wins' debates with bullshit. He solves all his problems with bullshit.
He came to the courtroom armed with his most reliable weapon: bullshit. Now he's in the finding out part of fucking around. Turns out courts have a dim view of bullshit.
Gonna be a dreamy creamy summer.
posted by adept256 at 8:36 PM on July 29, 2022 [23 favorites]
He came to the courtroom armed with his most reliable weapon: bullshit. Now he's in the finding out part of fucking around. Turns out courts have a dim view of bullshit.
Gonna be a dreamy creamy summer.
posted by adept256 at 8:36 PM on July 29, 2022 [23 favorites]
Fun fact, when I was in law school, I worked on the research project that resulted in Arizona deciding to allow juror questions; I believe they were the first state to do so. Arizona allowed researchers to audio and video record jury deliberations in I think 24 (civil) cases, with the caveat that the tapes be sent out of Arizona for analysis.
Anyway, after signing approximately 40 billion agreements about what I could and could not disclose, I'm one of maybe three dozen people who has viewed actual recorded jury deliberations. I cleaned up transcripts and coded certain speech events. I don't remember everything we were coding for, some of it was like "talking about plaintiff" "recalling evidence." But I do recall we had a code for "talking about lunch" (SOOOOO much talking about lunch!) and "discussing court officials," which involved a lot of stuff like, "Did you see the judge roll his eyes???" There was one case where the bailiff was apparently REALLY HOT (I did not see those videos) and it was the primary topic of jury discussion until deliberations. Juries also spend a lot of time critiquing lawyers' tie choices.
I also had to attest that I had no intention of practicing law in Arizona ever, and if for some reason I am ever involved in a court case in Arizona (other than a traffic ticket), I must disclose to the court my participation in the research.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:47 PM on July 29, 2022 [78 favorites]
Anyway, after signing approximately 40 billion agreements about what I could and could not disclose, I'm one of maybe three dozen people who has viewed actual recorded jury deliberations. I cleaned up transcripts and coded certain speech events. I don't remember everything we were coding for, some of it was like "talking about plaintiff" "recalling evidence." But I do recall we had a code for "talking about lunch" (SOOOOO much talking about lunch!) and "discussing court officials," which involved a lot of stuff like, "Did you see the judge roll his eyes???" There was one case where the bailiff was apparently REALLY HOT (I did not see those videos) and it was the primary topic of jury discussion until deliberations. Juries also spend a lot of time critiquing lawyers' tie choices.
I also had to attest that I had no intention of practicing law in Arizona ever, and if for some reason I am ever involved in a court case in Arizona (other than a traffic ticket), I must disclose to the court my participation in the research.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:47 PM on July 29, 2022 [78 favorites]
I'm going to take this opportunity to thank Dan of Knowledge Fight. It's been about 20 years since I developed an explosive reaction to all things dairy. The bummer at the dinner party, when they bring out the gooey delight, I have to explain that it's forbidden. The dreamy creamy summer inspired me to seek out lactose free ice cream. I'd forgotten what it tasted like. I didn't expect to be emotional, but it took me right back to summer days as a child, a treat from my dad when he was still alive. It was very special.
So ice cream is back on the menu. Thanks Dan! I doubt my cardiologist approves though.
posted by adept256 at 9:18 PM on July 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
So ice cream is back on the menu. Thanks Dan! I doubt my cardiologist approves though.
posted by adept256 at 9:18 PM on July 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
So ice cream is back on the menu.
As it should be for each and every one of us.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:14 AM on July 30, 2022 [31 favorites]
As it should be for each and every one of us.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:14 AM on July 30, 2022 [31 favorites]
Yes, considering the state of the world, we need ice cream now more than ever!
posted by aubilenon at 11:13 AM on July 30, 2022
posted by aubilenon at 11:13 AM on July 30, 2022
(Also, Alex Jones getting comeuppance'd is especially something we need now more than ever.)
posted by aubilenon at 11:14 AM on July 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 11:14 AM on July 30, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you've not heard Jon Ronson's episode of This American Life where Ronson goes into Jones's origin story, it explains a lot.
tl;dl: Alex Jones has always been a sad, lying little man, and there will always be suckers who fall for and defend him, even when faced with a mountain of incontrovertible evidence that he's a sad, lying little man.
posted by RakDaddy at 2:33 PM on July 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
tl;dl: Alex Jones has always been a sad, lying little man, and there will always be suckers who fall for and defend him, even when faced with a mountain of incontrovertible evidence that he's a sad, lying little man.
posted by RakDaddy at 2:33 PM on July 30, 2022 [10 favorites]
> Jones has a lot of fans. There are a lot of people who don't think what he's doing is monstrous at all. They either actually believe what he's saying or are in a non-rational mindset where they aren't really evaluating truth or reality of, say, the Sandy Hook mass murder. Instead they are simply upset that people are criticizing their love of assault rifles and so are all for the shouty guy who tells the world the shooting was all a hoax.
It's a mistake to think all Americans are thinking rationally or morally. A lot of them like what Jones does. Also they find him entertaining. They certainly don't find him monstrous. And there are a scary number of them. Enough that Trump did an interview with Jones in 2015 as part of his campaigning. That interview helped Trump win the primary and ultimately get elected.
@LMSacasas: "Modernity traded locally shared common worlds for a desituated public sphere built on shared knowledge mediated by institutions and experts. What we're living through is the collapse of that arrangement and the subsequent dissolution into virtually shared common worlds."[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8]
or, as CJ The X puts it: "in the past people ascribed generally to organized religion as the dominant way to engage with the unknowable nature of reality, which you know didn't historically go in a non-violent way. saying jesus [ __ ] christ isn't taking the lord's name in vain. arrogantly oppressing the downtrodden and forcing your personal values upon them in the name of god is taking the lord's name in vain. but organizing societal consciousness around religion does actually provide a shared sense of meaning and morality. the farther we've moved from a communal responsibility to a higher power, the deeper we have drenched ourselves in ironic detachment from all meaning. if you don't believe me, look around you. look at the internet: the pocket dimensions and ever-shifting sands of increasingly niche cultures. everyone gives a [ __ ] about everything. no one gives a [ __ ] about anything. society is fractured into so many different value systems the only universal law is that someone will think you're evil for whatever it is you do believe. so why not start just telling ironic jokes in the face of overwhelming cosmic horror, the alternative is subscribe to whatever the dominant value system may be and discover the eternal emptiness within its promise. why the [ __ ] would you care about something, why bother having empathy for people that are always gonna try to [ __ ] you, why try when you're an h2o molecule in a wave that's crashing whether or not you feel like hitting the shore..."
maybe 'institutions and experts' are reasserting themselves?
posted by kliuless at 3:11 AM on July 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's a mistake to think all Americans are thinking rationally or morally. A lot of them like what Jones does. Also they find him entertaining. They certainly don't find him monstrous. And there are a scary number of them. Enough that Trump did an interview with Jones in 2015 as part of his campaigning. That interview helped Trump win the primary and ultimately get elected.
@LMSacasas: "Modernity traded locally shared common worlds for a desituated public sphere built on shared knowledge mediated by institutions and experts. What we're living through is the collapse of that arrangement and the subsequent dissolution into virtually shared common worlds."[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8]
or, as CJ The X puts it: "in the past people ascribed generally to organized religion as the dominant way to engage with the unknowable nature of reality, which you know didn't historically go in a non-violent way. saying jesus [ __ ] christ isn't taking the lord's name in vain. arrogantly oppressing the downtrodden and forcing your personal values upon them in the name of god is taking the lord's name in vain. but organizing societal consciousness around religion does actually provide a shared sense of meaning and morality. the farther we've moved from a communal responsibility to a higher power, the deeper we have drenched ourselves in ironic detachment from all meaning. if you don't believe me, look around you. look at the internet: the pocket dimensions and ever-shifting sands of increasingly niche cultures. everyone gives a [ __ ] about everything. no one gives a [ __ ] about anything. society is fractured into so many different value systems the only universal law is that someone will think you're evil for whatever it is you do believe. so why not start just telling ironic jokes in the face of overwhelming cosmic horror, the alternative is subscribe to whatever the dominant value system may be and discover the eternal emptiness within its promise. why the [ __ ] would you care about something, why bother having empathy for people that are always gonna try to [ __ ] you, why try when you're an h2o molecule in a wave that's crashing whether or not you feel like hitting the shore..."
maybe 'institutions and experts' are reasserting themselves?
posted by kliuless at 3:11 AM on July 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
> Yes, considering the state of the world, we need ice cream now more than ever!
To quote a wise Ice Cream Man: "Why talk about war when we can talk about ice cream!"
posted by bunbury at 5:41 PM on July 31, 2022
To quote a wise Ice Cream Man: "Why talk about war when we can talk about ice cream!"
posted by bunbury at 5:41 PM on July 31, 2022
So Glenn Greenwald has full-on just abdicated his entire soul, huh?
posted by Scattercat at 10:57 PM on July 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 10:57 PM on July 31, 2022 [5 favorites]
..Alex Jones has always been a sad, lying little man, and there will always be suckers who fall for and defend him, even when faced with a mountain of incontrovertible evidence that he's a sad, lying little man.The heartbreaking or perhaps infuriating part of that This American Life piece is the twist it takes at the end, where interview subjects who have just established that they have every reason to personally know that Jones is a horrible human being and an unrepentant liar are prepared to believe the things he says that confirm their preconceptions.
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:00 AM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
hey either actually believe what he's saying or are in a non-rational mindset where they aren't really evaluating truth or reality of, say, the Sandy Hook mass murder.
Never forget that when the right wing media ecosystem went all in on the "Sandy Hook was a false flag / never happened" lie, it was an admission that Sandy Hook was an incident of such horror that the obvious, natural response would be gun control, and they needed to do anything, say anything to prevent it.
Sadly, they were fairly successful.
posted by Gelatin at 5:15 AM on August 1, 2022 [11 favorites]
Never forget that when the right wing media ecosystem went all in on the "Sandy Hook was a false flag / never happened" lie, it was an admission that Sandy Hook was an incident of such horror that the obvious, natural response would be gun control, and they needed to do anything, say anything to prevent it.
Sadly, they were fairly successful.
posted by Gelatin at 5:15 AM on August 1, 2022 [11 favorites]
We have another live response thread for today.
In addition, the NYT reports on the first week. Apparently, Jones' legal strategy is to argue that nobody knows what the truth is anymore.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:53 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
In addition, the NYT reports on the first week. Apparently, Jones' legal strategy is to argue that nobody knows what the truth is anymore.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:53 AM on August 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jones admits, on air, that he fraudulently filed for bankruptcy in order to shield his wealth.
Someone forgot the first rule of Crime Club.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:52 AM on August 1, 2022 [6 favorites]
Someone forgot the first rule of Crime Club.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:52 AM on August 1, 2022 [6 favorites]
Plaintiff's counsel is pretty much done with Reynal's bullshit, argues that he's actively looking to sabotage the trial. Given that the judge has lost any patience with him, Reynal is most likely facing sanctions.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:25 PM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:25 PM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Jones' lawyer announces that, in defiance of logic, common sense, and all that is holy, he will be putting Jones on the stand.
This is going to be insane.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:55 PM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is going to be insane.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:55 PM on August 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
as someone in todays Liz thread put it, Jones's tactic here is, "I can't be sued because I'm bankrupt because I owe myself all my money."
posted by glonous keming at 3:10 PM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 3:10 PM on August 1, 2022 [4 favorites]
He didn't show up. Cowardly piece of shit.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:51 AM on August 2, 2022
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:51 AM on August 2, 2022
He didn't show up.
Is there any way the jury would not interpret this big "He's going to testify!!! No, he isn't!!!" as detrimental to Jones?
Is this two-step yet another attempt by his defense to try to establish grounds for appeal, or is it just (as the Liz Dye threads repeatedly state) that his lawyers aren't that competent?
posted by Gelatin at 8:02 AM on August 2, 2022
Is there any way the jury would not interpret this big "He's going to testify!!! No, he isn't!!!" as detrimental to Jones?
Is this two-step yet another attempt by his defense to try to establish grounds for appeal, or is it just (as the Liz Dye threads repeatedly state) that his lawyers aren't that competent?
posted by Gelatin at 8:02 AM on August 2, 2022
Is this two-step yet another attempt by his defense to try to establish grounds for appeal, or is it just (as the Liz Dye threads repeatedly state) that his lawyers aren't that competent?
Again, por que no los dos? Reynal is fishing for a mistrial, but he's being incredibly blatant about it, to the point that both the plaintiffs' counsel and the judge have called him out on it.
Is there any way the jury would not interpret this big "He's going to testify!!! No, he isn't!!!" as detrimental to Jones?
On one hand, a competent attorney would have done everything to get Jones to be in court for the testimony of the plaintiffs. On the other, it has been shown that his lawyers have little control over Jones' behavior.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:18 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Again, por que no los dos? Reynal is fishing for a mistrial, but he's being incredibly blatant about it, to the point that both the plaintiffs' counsel and the judge have called him out on it.
Is there any way the jury would not interpret this big "He's going to testify!!! No, he isn't!!!" as detrimental to Jones?
On one hand, a competent attorney would have done everything to get Jones to be in court for the testimony of the plaintiffs. On the other, it has been shown that his lawyers have little control over Jones' behavior.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:18 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Again, por que no los dos? Reynal is fishing for a mistrial, but he's being incredibly blatant about it, to the point that both the plaintiffs' counsel and the judge have called him out on it.
He also keeps trying to get stuff onto the record that should have been part of discovery and gets slapped down by the plaintiffs' attorney and judge.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:35 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
He also keeps trying to get stuff onto the record that should have been part of discovery and gets slapped down by the plaintiffs' attorney and judge.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:35 AM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
And in Jones hoisting himself on his own petard, the plaintiffs have introduced video of Jones attacking Neil Heslin's testimony.
From this morning.
When he wasn't in the courtroom.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on August 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
From this morning.
When he wasn't in the courtroom.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on August 2, 2022 [7 favorites]
And for every one following along, we've hit the moment you've been waiting for - Jones is on the stand.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:39 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:39 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
sorry looks like that link i just posted is unofficial, and i can't find the offical link right now. if someone else has it, please share. i would hate to give some REACT "streamer" any extra views.
posted by glonous keming at 2:23 PM on August 2, 2022
posted by glonous keming at 2:23 PM on August 2, 2022
Here's the official court livestream.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:40 PM on August 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:40 PM on August 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
Judge to lawyer: "So, Mr. Jones is too ignorant to know he's lying, is that your defense?"
posted by box at 2:55 PM on August 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by box at 2:55 PM on August 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
And then, after the judge left, Jones confronted the plaintiffs, tried to make them shake his hand, and claimed to be autistic.
Cannot make this shit up, not enough drugs in the entire world.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:21 PM on August 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Cannot make this shit up, not enough drugs in the entire world.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:21 PM on August 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jones can.
posted by flabdablet at 6:09 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 6:09 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
So, if I have everything correct:
-he spent the morning mocking the plantiffs on his show, which got introduced against him in the afternoon;
-the judge admonished him for lying under oath;
-the judge asked his lawyer if the strategy was to position Jones as being too ignorant to know he was lying;
-and at the end of the day he got into it verbally with the plantiffs and their lawyer while in the courtroom.
I'd love to think this means his certain doom, but I suspect he's playing right to his audience so the millions just keep rolling in.
posted by nubs at 7:12 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
-he spent the morning mocking the plantiffs on his show, which got introduced against him in the afternoon;
-the judge admonished him for lying under oath;
-the judge asked his lawyer if the strategy was to position Jones as being too ignorant to know he was lying;
-and at the end of the day he got into it verbally with the plantiffs and their lawyer while in the courtroom.
I'd love to think this means his certain doom, but I suspect he's playing right to his audience so the millions just keep rolling in.
posted by nubs at 7:12 PM on August 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, he'll keep getting weird Bitcoin donations from shitheads, for sure, but if he pisses off the judge enough he might end up just making more money for the defendants. XD
This is one of four? Five? I have hopes that between this and not being able to get on any social media that he might finally get beaten back down to "isolated weird subtopic for conspiracy buffs."
posted by Scattercat at 7:20 PM on August 2, 2022
This is one of four? Five? I have hopes that between this and not being able to get on any social media that he might finally get beaten back down to "isolated weird subtopic for conspiracy buffs."
posted by Scattercat at 7:20 PM on August 2, 2022
"I suspect he's playing right to his audience so the millions just keep rolling in."
I don't know that we'll ever really know what makes Jones tick. I do wonder if he is genuinely unhinged rather than calculating, and it's more that we live in a media environment that rewards him constantly for it, so his behaviour has been reinforced over years rather than deterred. I doubt he can control himself for long (thinking about accounts of his outbursts in the workplace etc).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:00 PM on August 2, 2022
I don't know that we'll ever really know what makes Jones tick. I do wonder if he is genuinely unhinged rather than calculating, and it's more that we live in a media environment that rewards him constantly for it, so his behaviour has been reinforced over years rather than deterred. I doubt he can control himself for long (thinking about accounts of his outbursts in the workplace etc).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:00 PM on August 2, 2022
I don't know that we'll ever really know what makes Jones tick.I would hazard a wild guess that it involves large amounts of substance abuse and narcissism, but I feel fortunate to say that I have not studied Jones enough to know.
I didn't watch the livestream, but this is my favorite bit from the recap:
Judge: You are abusing my tolerance and making asides to the jury improperly and in least two cases untruthfullyAnyway, I am really looking forward to the "FO" phase of the "FAFO".
Jones: I believe what I said was true.
Judge: You believe everything you say is true. That does not make it true.
posted by Nerd of the North at 9:58 PM on August 2, 2022 [6 favorites]
KF Reddit: Find yourself someone who looks at you like Bill looks at Mark while Mark is laying the smackdown
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:51 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:51 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Livestream for today's hearing is up.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:14 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:14 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
For those wondering, the lesson that Alex Jones learned from the judge tearing a strip of his hide off yesterday is nothing at all, apparently.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:56 AM on August 3, 2022
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:56 AM on August 3, 2022
Cross has arrived. Get the popcorn.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:27 AM on August 3, 2022
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:27 AM on August 3, 2022
And we kick cross off with the plaintiffs arguing impeachment, featuring the last week's worth of Infowars.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:33 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:33 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Bankston's first move was to play video of InfoWars from last Friday in which Alex's guest host was claiming the judge herself was "rigging" the trial, and depicted a graphic of the judge on fire.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:35 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:35 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I swear this is one of the most satisfying things I have ever watched
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:12 AM on August 3, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:12 AM on August 3, 2022
Jones said he hadn't received or read any of the text messages that he was just shown...
Bankston: "Mr. Jones, did you know that 10 days ago your attorneys messed up and sent me an entire digital copy of the contents of your cell phone..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:23 AM on August 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
Bankston: "Mr. Jones, did you know that 10 days ago your attorneys messed up and sent me an entire digital copy of the contents of your cell phone..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:23 AM on August 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
If this was a TV show I think I'd be scoffing at the sudden accidental appearance of the cell phone.
I hope the plaintiff's lawyers can make another appearance on Knowledge Fight and elaborate more on this (and everything else).
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:31 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I hope the plaintiff's lawyers can make another appearance on Knowledge Fight and elaborate more on this (and everything else).
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:31 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Does Jones have grounds for appeal on inadequate counsel? The stuff from the phone is filling in some big holes.
Also, do the jurors get to ask questions after this?
posted by nubs at 9:32 AM on August 3, 2022
Also, do the jurors get to ask questions after this?
posted by nubs at 9:32 AM on August 3, 2022
Nevermind, judge is answering my second question after Bankston decides there's no point asking Jones anymore questions
posted by nubs at 9:36 AM on August 3, 2022
posted by nubs at 9:36 AM on August 3, 2022
I believe the court and Reynal have known about the cell phone "accident" for 10 days, which is why there wasn't more kerfluffle about it's sudden appearance.
This is riveting and I can't help feeling, what if there was a similar proceeding with Trump on the stand, and his history of mob behaviour, lies, prevarications, and deflections brought to a singly crystallizing point?
posted by Rumple at 9:40 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is riveting and I can't help feeling, what if there was a similar proceeding with Trump on the stand, and his history of mob behaviour, lies, prevarications, and deflections brought to a singly crystallizing point?
posted by Rumple at 9:40 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can't help feeling, what if there was a similar proceeding with Trump on the stand, and his history of mob behaviour, lies, prevarications, and deflections brought to a singly crystallizing point?
I kind of wish I hadn't been reading this at work because the surge of delight I got from contemplating that was almost sexually stimulating.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I kind of wish I hadn't been reading this at work because the surge of delight I got from contemplating that was almost sexually stimulating.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Does Jones have grounds for appeal on inadequate counsel?
Ineffective assistance of counsel is a criminal law thing. They were always going to move for a mistrial, so they will complain about this as a part of that. Otherwise, his remedies against his attorneys sound in malpractice.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:43 AM on August 3, 2022
Ineffective assistance of counsel is a criminal law thing. They were always going to move for a mistrial, so they will complain about this as a part of that. Otherwise, his remedies against his attorneys sound in malpractice.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:43 AM on August 3, 2022
During this little courtroom break:
Bankston to Jones' Atty, who is on the phone, and looking rattled: "So we've got 3 years of all the data. All the texts, and emails, and medical records and communications."
Jones' Atty: "Will you send it to me?"
Bankston just smiled at him. It was delicious.
posted by onehalfjunco at 9:48 AM on August 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
Bankston to Jones' Atty, who is on the phone, and looking rattled: "So we've got 3 years of all the data. All the texts, and emails, and medical records and communications."
Jones' Atty: "Will you send it to me?"
Bankston just smiled at him. It was delicious.
posted by onehalfjunco at 9:48 AM on August 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
They're on a break, but on the hot mic from the stream, Reynal started asking Bankston about the cell phone records. Bankston gave him this quizzical look, and told him that it's contents for the "last three years." Reynal is asking for him to send it to him. Which is funny because it was Reynal's team (such as it is) that sent it in error.
Reynal walked away, and Bankston said to his colleagues "There's going to be months of fallout" from that cockup.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:49 AM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Reynal walked away, and Bankston said to his colleagues "There's going to be months of fallout" from that cockup.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:49 AM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Overheard by Liz Dye (@5DollarFeminist):
Bankston tells Reynal he has *everything* off Jones's phone, including a bunch of confidential depositions, and advises Reynal that he should probably worry about his atty-client comms being breached.
"Will you send it to me?" Reynal asks.
posted by nubs at 9:50 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Bankston tells Reynal he has *everything* off Jones's phone, including a bunch of confidential depositions, and advises Reynal that he should probably worry about his atty-client comms being breached.
"Will you send it to me?" Reynal asks.
posted by nubs at 9:50 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure it was Bankston who also just said something like, "What happens when that phone goes to law enforcement?"
posted by yasaman at 9:51 AM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 9:51 AM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
I kind of wish I hadn't been reading this at work because the surge of delight I got from contemplating that was almost sexually stimulating.
I'm glad I'm working from home today, because when I got to this part of Liz Dye's invaluable livetweeting (she's implying a sudden coughing fit by Jones is an attempt to obfuscate lies / elicit sympathy)...
posted by Gelatin at 9:55 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm glad I'm working from home today, because when I got to this part of Liz Dye's invaluable livetweeting (she's implying a sudden coughing fit by Jones is an attempt to obfuscate lies / elicit sympathy)...
Bankston: You testified yesterday that you complied with discovery....I laughed loud enough to disturb my dog.
Jones: [Hack, snort] Yes
Bankston: You testified you had no texts on SH?
Jones: [horkkkkkk] Sure
Bankston: I'd like to enter an exhibit into evidence ...
posted by Gelatin at 9:55 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
a sudden coughing fit by Jones is an attempt to obfuscate lies / elicit sympathy
At one point Bankston asked him about how he's been managed to appear daily on his show throughout the trial, yelling and ranting and raving for an hour straight (or more) without a cough.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:58 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
At one point Bankston asked him about how he's been managed to appear daily on his show throughout the trial, yelling and ranting and raving for an hour straight (or more) without a cough.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:58 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
And Jones replied that in the studio he had a "cough button" on the floor to mute those, which is patently false as when he coughs his whole body is involved and his face turns red, not to mention his mouth opens.
posted by Rumple at 10:06 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Rumple at 10:06 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Perhaps he's hitting the crack pipe harder to prepare for testifying.
posted by Nelson at 10:22 AM on August 3, 2022
posted by Nelson at 10:22 AM on August 3, 2022
Oh god he just did the I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA gif from South Park, but on the stand, after stumbling over jury questions on what he thinks blue collar is, and what he thinks a fair award would be.
Now he's saying maybe the American republic is over and should be buried because he might be held responsible for something, financially. This from a man who routinely calls for his ideological enemies' imprisonment or violent end.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:29 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now he's saying maybe the American republic is over and should be buried because he might be held responsible for something, financially. This from a man who routinely calls for his ideological enemies' imprisonment or violent end.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:29 AM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
So, in the span of, what, 20 minutes? We've seen Jones get exposed to perjury charges and his lawyers exposed to sanctions.
I try not to get too flippant about these proceedings because they are about a group of people who had to bury their children and then get harassed for years, but hoooleee shit.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:33 AM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I try not to get too flippant about these proceedings because they are about a group of people who had to bury their children and then get harassed for years, but hoooleee shit.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:33 AM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Does anyone know if the jury has to be unanimous in deciding a damages amount?
posted by Rumple at 11:14 AM on August 3, 2022
posted by Rumple at 11:14 AM on August 3, 2022
I don't know that we'll ever really know what makes Jones tick.
I'm not any kind of psychologist, so I will refrain from armchair diagnosis. I think, whatever "special circumstances" he might have, he's a white cis het man in the United States who grew up with at least modest wealth, and has spent the last decade+ yelling about conspiracies on the radio to an audience that has rewarded him handsomely for it and encouraged him to go faster and harder at every turn. Simultaneously, he seems to have surrounded himself with people who cannot or will not restrain him in any way and likely enable and accelerate his behavior. Additionally, he seems to use alcohol a lot.
Essentially, he acts like he can lie with impunity, take control of any conversation or situation, and get away with behaving more or less like a toddler with a temper because he has never suffered any significant negative consequences for any of his actions. And, even if these cases end with him being stripped of 10s of millions of dollars, I doubt he will change. What he is is likely what he will keep being; the grifting is what he knows.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:34 AM on August 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm not any kind of psychologist, so I will refrain from armchair diagnosis. I think, whatever "special circumstances" he might have, he's a white cis het man in the United States who grew up with at least modest wealth, and has spent the last decade+ yelling about conspiracies on the radio to an audience that has rewarded him handsomely for it and encouraged him to go faster and harder at every turn. Simultaneously, he seems to have surrounded himself with people who cannot or will not restrain him in any way and likely enable and accelerate his behavior. Additionally, he seems to use alcohol a lot.
Essentially, he acts like he can lie with impunity, take control of any conversation or situation, and get away with behaving more or less like a toddler with a temper because he has never suffered any significant negative consequences for any of his actions. And, even if these cases end with him being stripped of 10s of millions of dollars, I doubt he will change. What he is is likely what he will keep being; the grifting is what he knows.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:34 AM on August 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm looking forward to the inevitable Law & Order episode based on this, but I also know it will somehow not live up to the real thing. How could it at this point?
posted by HiddenInput at 11:50 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by HiddenInput at 11:50 AM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Dan Solomon appears to have the background story on how the phone was mistakenly sent, and more details of what might happen with it now. (Spoiler: put into an shared dropbox).
Shockingly, Jones' phone appears to include medical information on the plaintiffs, Scarlett Lewis and Neil Helmsin.
posted by Rumple at 11:53 AM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Shockingly, Jones' phone appears to include medical information on the plaintiffs, Scarlett Lewis and Neil Helmsin.
posted by Rumple at 11:53 AM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Rolling Stone -- Exclusive: Jan. 6 Committee Plans to Subpoena Alex Jones’ Texts, Emails
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:13 PM on August 3, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:13 PM on August 3, 2022 [11 favorites]
(Spoiler: put into an shared dropbox).
This is also, just...wow:
Bankston said that he did not believe the phone was placed in the folder intentionally, and told me he notified Reynal and his co-counsel, who under texas law had ten days to respond that the materials were transmitted in error
also included in the Dropbox folder was medical information on the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Jones in Connecticut. According to Bankston, Reynal never responded to his notice. As of yesterday, the files were legitimately in Bankston’s possession. He destroyed med records.
And just underscores what a massive, monstrous piece of shit the Jones is. He was collecting medical records (presumably illegally?) of the parents of dead kids while simultaneously paying people like Halbig to hound, and threaten them, along with inciting his audience to do the same.
It's important not to lose sight of that amidst this spectacular orgy of jaw-dropping legal buffoonery.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:24 PM on August 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is also, just...wow:
Bankston said that he did not believe the phone was placed in the folder intentionally, and told me he notified Reynal and his co-counsel, who under texas law had ten days to respond that the materials were transmitted in error
also included in the Dropbox folder was medical information on the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Jones in Connecticut. According to Bankston, Reynal never responded to his notice. As of yesterday, the files were legitimately in Bankston’s possession. He destroyed med records.
And just underscores what a massive, monstrous piece of shit the Jones is. He was collecting medical records (presumably illegally?) of the parents of dead kids while simultaneously paying people like Halbig to hound, and threaten them, along with inciting his audience to do the same.
It's important not to lose sight of that amidst this spectacular orgy of jaw-dropping legal buffoonery.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:24 PM on August 3, 2022 [9 favorites]
It's possible it was turned over to defense attorneys for their eyes only (regarding the Plaintiff's damages) and then the attorneys violated the rules and let Alex see it. And then exposed their corruption through their own compounding ineptitude.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:30 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:30 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Twitter newsfeed for "Alex Jones" is like candy right now.
posted by orange swan at 12:39 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 12:39 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Or, I suppose, that the defense team dropbox subfolder containing medical records was just within the same folder as the subfolder holding the phone image and someone set the sharing link in the wrong part of the folder hierarchy (rather than copying the responsive material elsewhere for sharing) -- instead of the records being within the image of Alex's phone, and so maybe not shared with him.
That may be more likely, it would explain the relative lack of fireworks beside the confrontation on the text messages.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:40 PM on August 3, 2022
That may be more likely, it would explain the relative lack of fireworks beside the confrontation on the text messages.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:40 PM on August 3, 2022
I somehow have the funny feeling that Jones' lawyer's mistake was an "accidentally on purpose" kind of thing - he had a guilty conscience defending the guy, but he didn't want to just drop out, so he intentionally fucked up big time to throw the case in such a way that would screw Jones over.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:45 PM on August 3, 2022
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:45 PM on August 3, 2022
NY Times reporter Elizabeth Williamson: "From Sandy Hook families’ lawyers: the data file containing Jones’ text messages is several hundred gigabytes in size. It contains texts going back at least 27 months. Unclear how recent the most recent texts are…"
posted by Rumple at 1:31 PM on August 3, 2022
posted by Rumple at 1:31 PM on August 3, 2022
Hundreds of gigs means there's more than text in there. But not clear whether that's the size of the entire inadvertent production, the phone image, or the iMessage database (presuming Apple).
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2022
Rolling Stone -- Exclusive: Jan. 6 Committee Plans to Subpoena Alex Jones’ Texts, Emails
Buther his emails!
posted by nubs at 2:14 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
But
posted by nubs at 2:14 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wow. I know shouldn't be surprised but wow, that still got to me...
Reynal just invoked Martin Niemöller and his famous poem ("First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist...") during the closing statement.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:15 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Reynal just invoked Martin Niemöller and his famous poem ("First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist...") during the closing statement.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 2:15 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jones' attorney had the unmitigated gall to end his closing arguments on compensatory damages by invoking (and misquoting) Niemoller's "First they came...." poem about the Holocaust.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:16 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:16 PM on August 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Law & Order writer: this turn of events (the phone release) is too dumb for even us.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:19 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:19 PM on August 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
Re invocation of Martin Niemöller: Trump booster Alex Jones: I’m not anti-Semitic, but Jews run an evil conspiracy (from a few years ago)
posted by Rumple at 2:23 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 2:23 PM on August 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Other people who seem to have a valid interest in what was on Alex Jones' phone: his ex-wife
"... Won a jury, lost my kids for blowing the whistle on infowars. ..."
In response to the same Ben Collins tweet that David Slack of Law and Order responded to.
(I now have Crosby Stills and Nash singing, 'All aboard on the Schaedenfreude Express..." in my head.)
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 2:45 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
"... Won a jury, lost my kids for blowing the whistle on infowars. ..."
In response to the same Ben Collins tweet that David Slack of Law and Order responded to.
(I now have Crosby Stills and Nash singing, 'All aboard on the Schaedenfreude Express..." in my head.)
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 2:45 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Alex Jones's cell phone is everything Republicans dreamed Hunter Biden's laptop would be.
posted by orange swan at 4:38 PM on August 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 4:38 PM on August 3, 2022 [14 favorites]
Never was the Michael Jackson Thriller gif of him eating popcorn more appropriate.
posted by Kitteh at 4:43 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:43 PM on August 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Caroline Orr Bueno thinks Roger Stone may be implicated by the texts on Jones's phone:
"... Jones, like Stone, was a major part of Stop the Steal, and the two of them have worked together for nearly a decade."
posted by orange swan at 5:58 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
"... Jones, like Stone, was a major part of Stop the Steal, and the two of them have worked together for nearly a decade."
posted by orange swan at 5:58 PM on August 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
trump or other parties better hope that alex jones wasn't part of the insurrection conspiracy - because that guy's a total liability
posted by pyramid termite at 6:27 PM on August 3, 2022
posted by pyramid termite at 6:27 PM on August 3, 2022
Ahahaha no, Jones was directly involved in the planning of Jan 6.
posted by ryanrs at 7:08 PM on August 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 7:08 PM on August 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Johnny McNulty on Twitter:
I have transferredposted by Pronoiac at 9:48 PM on August 3, 2022 [33 favorites]
the data
that was on
your cell phone
and which
you were probably
hiding
from prosecution
Forgive me
they were incriminating
so guilty
and so many
The former VPE at Dropbox had had something to say about his work:
We worked hard over the last couple of years to make Dropbox sharing so clear and easy that even someone who would agree to defend Alex Jones could use it, but apparently there is still some work to do.posted by NoxAeternum at 10:03 PM on August 3, 2022 [36 favorites]
This entire trial has been so much more gratifying than I dared to hope, and now he may well have just set some actual fires in terms of the ongoing treason investigations.
Gawd, what must be in those files... I can't stop snickering. Couldn't have happened to a more appropriate shitheel.
posted by Scattercat at 3:24 AM on August 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Gawd, what must be in those files... I can't stop snickering. Couldn't have happened to a more appropriate shitheel.
posted by Scattercat at 3:24 AM on August 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
And we kick today off with Reynal trying so desperately to close the barn door on the phone data, and getting clowned in the process. Apparently his desperation stems from the 1/6 Committee eagerly looking forward to those files, especially communications between Jones and Roger Stone.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:19 AM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:19 AM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
And Bankston says outright that if the judge doesn't say no, it's going to be Christmas in August for several law enforcement agencies.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:22 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:22 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
He's asking for plaintiffs to return all the documents and destroy the ones they have. "I hate to be put into this position by the conduct of plaintiffs counsel, but it appears they want to have a mistrial," he tells the judge.The absolute fucking chutzpah on this guy.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:38 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
When you're fucked no matter how things go, it's liberating in a way.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:45 AM on August 4, 2022
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:45 AM on August 4, 2022
"Lawyer for the Sandy Hook parents says in a hearing that he's received multiple law enforcement requests for Alex Jones's phone, and plans to hand it over immediately today unless the judge prevents him from doing it."
Oooh, "multiple law enforcement requests"! And I fully expect that when those authorities get those files, their reaction is going to be something like this.
posted by orange swan at 8:48 AM on August 4, 2022
Oooh, "multiple law enforcement requests"! And I fully expect that when those authorities get those files, their reaction is going to be something like this.
posted by orange swan at 8:48 AM on August 4, 2022
I don't quite understand; why didn't these agencies subpoena phone records from Jones before? Did he deny they existed? Maybe they didn't have probable cause until they already knew what was on them?
posted by Nelson at 8:50 AM on August 4, 2022
posted by Nelson at 8:50 AM on August 4, 2022
I don't quite understand; why didn't these agencies subpoena phone records from Jones before? Did he deny they existed? Maybe they didn't have probable cause until they already knew what was on them?
They have - and Jones has been fighting those subpoenas as well. Bankston, on the other hand, has no reason to fight them, and in fact is quite happy to give them the files with a neat little digital bow.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:54 AM on August 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
They have - and Jones has been fighting those subpoenas as well. Bankston, on the other hand, has no reason to fight them, and in fact is quite happy to give them the files with a neat little digital bow.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:54 AM on August 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
I don't quite understand; why didn't these agencies subpoena phone records from Jones before? Did he deny they existed?
Necessarily; he could hardly have admitted their existence in response to one subpoena while claiming they were gone in sworn discovery responses another proceeding (as he has in Texas).
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:17 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Necessarily; he could hardly have admitted their existence in response to one subpoena while claiming they were gone in sworn discovery responses another proceeding (as he has in Texas).
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:17 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
So if his lawyer knew the contents of the phone, he therefore must have known Jones was committing perjury...I'm not a law-talking guy, but isn't that like a big big problem?
posted by nubs at 10:24 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 10:24 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
On one hand yes, on the other hand Reynal is so deep in the shit that there's a serious question of whether or not this will be the last time he works as a lawyer, so suborning perjury is just another drop in the bucket.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:36 AM on August 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:36 AM on August 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
The thing I'm not getting is, however the phone contents managed to be shared with the plaintiffs' lawyers, once they let Jones's lawyers know they had it, why didn't team Jones say ooopsy Big mistako! plaz retorn immidiatly!
posted by taz at 10:55 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by taz at 10:55 AM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Bankston retorted that Reynal had sent him the enormous cache of documents, then followed up only with the words “Please disregard” in an email, which, he argued, is legally meaninglessIt looks like they "did" but extremely incompetently.
posted by ChrisR at 11:04 AM on August 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not really. One of the big problems for Reynal is the simple fact that (as the judge pointed out) the plaintiffs had a genuine right to the a lot of the information in the dump because that's what discovery is about. There's also the fact that he's been trying to fish for a mistrial from the start, and there's the sense that Reynal was planning this as a trap. Problem is that Bankston knows the law a lot better, and as he pointed out, there's rules for saying "I accidentally sent you something I'd should not have" that Reynal did not follow, in large part because he would have lost a lot of those fights.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:34 AM on August 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:34 AM on August 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Reynal flaccidly requested they "disregard it" rather than doing what was required to claw it back under the Texas statute and the Court's standing protective order. That's a waiver after ten days and why Renal was arguing for a different trigger date based on how Dropbox works (but how Dropbox works actually leans the other way).
Barnes went on Twitter and started yelling about violation of a California Rule of Professional Conduct on receipt of inadvertent disclosures (which the Plaintiffs in fact followed), intimating Jones should be able to rely on it to the point of it providing an exclusionary remedy in Texas, so he's just an idiot as usual; and probably admitted to further malpractice by not realizing that difference in law while representing a client in a Texas case.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:40 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Barnes went on Twitter and started yelling about violation of a California Rule of Professional Conduct on receipt of inadvertent disclosures (which the Plaintiffs in fact followed), intimating Jones should be able to rely on it to the point of it providing an exclusionary remedy in Texas, so he's just an idiot as usual; and probably admitted to further malpractice by not realizing that difference in law while representing a client in a Texas case.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:40 AM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
You can watch the motion hearing.
for more,
TX Bar Opinion 664
TX State Bar Paralegal Division Explainer
(more research than Barnes did, it would seem)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:45 AM on August 4, 2022
for more,
TX Bar Opinion 664
TX State Bar Paralegal Division Explainer
(more research than Barnes did, it would seem)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:45 AM on August 4, 2022
Hell of a thing: while I have long believed that Jones deserves the worst human life can offer, including this, I actually felt bad for the person who made this mistake -- counsel or paralegal, whichever one. I tend to think it is a mistake rather than a chess move or an act of rebellion simply because of Hanlon's Razor, plus it appears that this guy sucks, but I could be wrong.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:19 PM on August 4, 2022
posted by Countess Elena at 12:19 PM on August 4, 2022
I'm a paralegal, so I was somewhat sympathetic to the possible fuckup here: it really could be trivially easy to make a drag and drop mistake, grab the wrong file, share the wrong link, whatever. But the initial fuckup was recoverable: Jones' counsel had ten days to claw back the inadvertently disclosed materials. They completely failed to do so, because as others have noted, "Please disregard," is absolutely insufficient, and they should have known it. The code is clear on what they should have done.
If it was meant to be a trap, it's a really incompetent one. They'd have had better luck claiming some kind of excusable error if they'd simply never responded at all, because at least then they could have tried something like "oh I never saw the notification, my inbox, it is so full." Responding with "Please disregard" shows that they did know about it, and that they failed to follow the statute on how to remedy the inadvertent disclosure. It also puts them more in the shit about their discovery failures, and almost certainly grants law enforcement access to the imaged phone.
posted by yasaman at 12:31 PM on August 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
If it was meant to be a trap, it's a really incompetent one. They'd have had better luck claiming some kind of excusable error if they'd simply never responded at all, because at least then they could have tried something like "oh I never saw the notification, my inbox, it is so full." Responding with "Please disregard" shows that they did know about it, and that they failed to follow the statute on how to remedy the inadvertent disclosure. It also puts them more in the shit about their discovery failures, and almost certainly grants law enforcement access to the imaged phone.
posted by yasaman at 12:31 PM on August 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
From what I'm reading thus far, the judge has denied the motion to throw out the phone files as evidence because a) there was a proper procedure for saying "whoops, we didn't mean to do that" which the lawyer could have followed, and he had ten days to do so, but didn't; and b) a lot of the stuff in the files was stuff that Jones had already been subpoenaed for and should have turned over during the discovery phase anyway.
The judge did say that if Jones had some specific files or texts that he wanted to pull back, to let her know and she would review them and make a decision just about them, but not the whole thing. She also said that the medical files for the plaintiffs were 100% out of bounds and should be destroyed and prosecution said "Yep, already did that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
The judge did say that if Jones had some specific files or texts that he wanted to pull back, to let her know and she would review them and make a decision just about them, but not the whole thing. She also said that the medical files for the plaintiffs were 100% out of bounds and should be destroyed and prosecution said "Yep, already did that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I gathered from watching the hearing that after the initial error the defense was required to specify exactly what was privileged or protected in some way. This created an insoluble problem because they would have had to identify material they had lied about not having as well as material (eg the medical files) they were actually barred from having. They could hardly specify please return the files we are illegally hiding from you, or please return these files we’re not hiding from you but you can’t have because no one is meant to have them.
There may be some legal grey areas. The law probably didn’t anticipate the size of a potential document error and also there may be some gray areas around whether a link is like a document (I think that was Reynal’s point about the key into a room full of doors?)
Anyway that was my impression but even if I am incorrect I doubt this is not going to be a completely delicious episode.
posted by Rumple at 12:46 PM on August 4, 2022
There may be some legal grey areas. The law probably didn’t anticipate the size of a potential document error and also there may be some gray areas around whether a link is like a document (I think that was Reynal’s point about the key into a room full of doors?)
Anyway that was my impression but even if I am incorrect I doubt this is not going to be a completely delicious episode.
posted by Rumple at 12:46 PM on August 4, 2022
They could hardly specify please return the files we are illegally hiding from you, or please return these files we’re not hiding from you but you can’t have because no one is meant to have them.
lol and if Reynal wants any of the files returned/destroyed/marked confidential, he's going to have to identify them in a privilege log that the judge is going to review. This wouldn't be a huge problem if only his client had complied with his discovery obligations! But he didn't and now it's not like Reynal can be like "all these texts between Alex Jones and Roger Stone are privileged...because of reasons." TBF, I don't know what the protective order in this case covers, but presumably apart from that, the only things Reynal can really claw back are things that are truly privileged: attorney-client communications, spousal communications, medical records, etc.
This is a real bear trap of a legal quandary for Reynal and Jones. There's no way out of it that doesn't involve them biting their own legs off to get free, and even getting free will only send them right into a new cage (the other civil suit, the J6 commission, law enforcement, sanctions, etc.). What a delicious "find out" period after so much heinous fucking around.
posted by yasaman at 12:56 PM on August 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
lol and if Reynal wants any of the files returned/destroyed/marked confidential, he's going to have to identify them in a privilege log that the judge is going to review. This wouldn't be a huge problem if only his client had complied with his discovery obligations! But he didn't and now it's not like Reynal can be like "all these texts between Alex Jones and Roger Stone are privileged...because of reasons." TBF, I don't know what the protective order in this case covers, but presumably apart from that, the only things Reynal can really claw back are things that are truly privileged: attorney-client communications, spousal communications, medical records, etc.
This is a real bear trap of a legal quandary for Reynal and Jones. There's no way out of it that doesn't involve them biting their own legs off to get free, and even getting free will only send them right into a new cage (the other civil suit, the J6 commission, law enforcement, sanctions, etc.). What a delicious "find out" period after so much heinous fucking around.
posted by yasaman at 12:56 PM on August 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
Judge denies Alex Jones' attorney's request for a mistrial [CNN Lite]
posted by glonous keming at 1:05 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 1:05 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's also clear that the Plaintiffs' attorney went out of his way to mention the variety of material including texts and emails not only to show non compliance with disclosure but also to flag to every other ongoing legal and Congressional process that they need to issue a subpoena ASAP for the contents of the dropbox folders and all those "links" (not even "the phone") now they know it exists, and the defence agrees it exists. Even if the defence were to delete or edit some stuff, it seems the Plaintiffs downloaded the whole shebam.
The cat is truly out of the bag.
One remaining mystery is why Reynal just sat there and didn't even twitch when the text message / evidence of full phone "leak" was unveiled on cross examination. Theories I've seen include
- he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he is a deep state operative
- he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he thought it would be grounds for a mistrial
- he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he thought it might somehow mean he was off the hook for the non-disclosures which he inherited and perpetuated
- he didn't know it was coming but he wasn't listening
- he didn't know it was coming but didn't object because because he is a NY lawyer not a Texas lawyer and, in different states, failure to object in the moment doesn't matter long term, but in Texas it actually does?
If he was truly blindsided because he thought he had clawed this back with his email, then his extremely passive, even benign composure, when this brutal evidence is unveiled is hard to explain.
The defence's motion to have the dropbox returned is floating around on twitter and I read it but I can't seem to find it again.
posted by Rumple at 2:06 PM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
The cat is truly out of the bag.
One remaining mystery is why Reynal just sat there and didn't even twitch when the text message / evidence of full phone "leak" was unveiled on cross examination. Theories I've seen include
- he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he is a deep state operative
- he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he thought it would be grounds for a mistrial
- he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he thought it might somehow mean he was off the hook for the non-disclosures which he inherited and perpetuated
- he didn't know it was coming but he wasn't listening
- he didn't know it was coming but didn't object because because he is a NY lawyer not a Texas lawyer and, in different states, failure to object in the moment doesn't matter long term, but in Texas it actually does?
If he was truly blindsided because he thought he had clawed this back with his email, then his extremely passive, even benign composure, when this brutal evidence is unveiled is hard to explain.
The defence's motion to have the dropbox returned is floating around on twitter and I read it but I can't seem to find it again.
posted by Rumple at 2:06 PM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel fairly confident predicting that Youtube views for this Simpsons clip are going to spike over the next few days..
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:17 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:17 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Reynal, the defence lawyer, has now been subpoenaed in Connecticut for a professional practice disciplinary hearing regarding the possession/release of the medical documents, which pertain to a different Sandy Hook case underway there. These are the ones he shouldn't have had in the first place let alone left sitting on a digital park bench.
posted by Rumple at 2:19 PM on August 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 2:19 PM on August 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
- he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he thought it would be grounds for a mistrial
This is what I thought immediately, but then wouldn't he have prepared his client not to look and act like he was absolutely fucking terrified upon hearing that delicious statement, "Mr. Jones, did you know that 10 days ago your attorneys messed up and sent me an entire digital copy of the contents of your cell phone..."
I totally reject any idea that a feeling of "guilt" led to the "accidental" gift. Maaaaaybe a very low level employee, who also somehow has keys to everything? Maybe. Maybe, but really?
he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he thought it might somehow mean he was off the hook for the non-disclosures which he inherited and perpetuated
This seems more likely ... as a weird absolute desperation move? I have no idea. None of the theories except just plain stupid seem to make much sense, but I worry that there's a plan. Roger Stone might be in there somewhere doing what he does. Please tell me there's not a plan!
posted by taz at 2:28 PM on August 4, 2022
This is what I thought immediately, but then wouldn't he have prepared his client not to look and act like he was absolutely fucking terrified upon hearing that delicious statement, "Mr. Jones, did you know that 10 days ago your attorneys messed up and sent me an entire digital copy of the contents of your cell phone..."
I totally reject any idea that a feeling of "guilt" led to the "accidental" gift. Maaaaaybe a very low level employee, who also somehow has keys to everything? Maybe. Maybe, but really?
he knew it was coming and didn't mind because he thought it might somehow mean he was off the hook for the non-disclosures which he inherited and perpetuated
This seems more likely ... as a weird absolute desperation move? I have no idea. None of the theories except just plain stupid seem to make much sense, but I worry that there's a plan. Roger Stone might be in there somewhere doing what he does. Please tell me there's not a plan!
posted by taz at 2:28 PM on August 4, 2022
Seems the Jury has returned their verdict.
Total of ~5 million in compensatory damages across the eight counts. Apparently in Texas punitive damages, which are yet to be determined, are capped as a multiple of compensatory. So it seems very unlikely there is a blockbuster award coming here and Jones will not be bankrupted.
The real loss is probably the unveiling of the phone etc.
Edit: multiplier max is apparently 10X compensatory.
posted by Rumple at 2:29 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Total of ~5 million in compensatory damages across the eight counts. Apparently in Texas punitive damages, which are yet to be determined, are capped as a multiple of compensatory. So it seems very unlikely there is a blockbuster award coming here and Jones will not be bankrupted.
The real loss is probably the unveiling of the phone etc.
Edit: multiplier max is apparently 10X compensatory.
posted by Rumple at 2:29 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Well, fuck it. I'm pissed about that amount.
posted by nubs at 2:38 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by nubs at 2:38 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
He did say any financial penalty over $2 million will "sink us". So there's that.
But he says a lot of shit.
posted by mazola at 2:49 PM on August 4, 2022
But he says a lot of shit.
posted by mazola at 2:49 PM on August 4, 2022
I'd guess he's made more than $5 million just from complaining about the trial
posted by nubs at 2:54 PM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 2:54 PM on August 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I expect in the punitive damages mini-trial, which begins tomorrow, that the plaintiffs will introduce a lot more of the "phone data" showing how much Jones is actually worth (seems he texted daily with someone on how many sales he had made off his show), and also they can reiterate how untrustworthy he is therefore if the point of punishment is "don't do it again" then they need a big deterrent.
Also he faces further trials in other jurisdictions, including one IIRC where has already been found guilty, plus the potential perjury charges from this trial, and all the spinoff legal matters which will stem from the phone/dropbox disclosure. So the current $ seems underwhelming, tomorrow it may be more like 40 million, and in the next few months I think he is going to roasted fairly thoroughly. He has a seemingly infinite capacity to raise money though so I doubt he is going away completely. I mean, he was raising money by going on his show during this trial, that is, when the trial was actually in session.
posted by Rumple at 2:59 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also he faces further trials in other jurisdictions, including one IIRC where has already been found guilty, plus the potential perjury charges from this trial, and all the spinoff legal matters which will stem from the phone/dropbox disclosure. So the current $ seems underwhelming, tomorrow it may be more like 40 million, and in the next few months I think he is going to roasted fairly thoroughly. He has a seemingly infinite capacity to raise money though so I doubt he is going away completely. I mean, he was raising money by going on his show during this trial, that is, when the trial was actually in session.
posted by Rumple at 2:59 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
By Texas law, punitive damages are only 2x the compensatory, and the jury has to be unanimous. Since only 10 of 12 jurors agreed to the compensatory damages, it's unlikely there will be any more from this trial. The only good news is that there are two more trials left.
A reminder that when Gawker embarrassed a former professional wrestler, they were hit with $140 million and instantly went out of business.
posted by dirigibleman at 3:45 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
A reminder that when Gawker embarrassed a former professional wrestler, they were hit with $140 million and instantly went out of business.
posted by dirigibleman at 3:45 PM on August 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
when Gawker embarrassed a former professional wrestler
They published a sex tape without consent.
Alex Jones should lose everything and burn in hell, but this is the wrong comparison.
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 4:02 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
They published a sex tape without consent.
Alex Jones should lose everything and burn in hell, but this is the wrong comparison.
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 4:02 PM on August 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Jones will not be bankrupted.
Wait didn't he already declare bankruptcy like a bunch of times during this trial?
posted by aubilenon at 4:37 PM on August 4, 2022
Wait didn't he already declare bankruptcy like a bunch of times during this trial?
posted by aubilenon at 4:37 PM on August 4, 2022
By Texas law, punitive damages are only 2x the compensatory, and the jury has to be unanimous.
This 2X number is posted all over the place, but the Plaintiff's lawyer disagrees. The unanimity requirement is steep, but it may be the 2/10 who did not sign did so because they thought the damages should be even higher and or the jury had the 10/12 they needed and wanted to get out of school.
There will only be one witness tomorrow, a forensic accountant for the plaintiffs, who will attempt to establish Jones' net worth. As I noted, I would expect financial information from the data leak will figure prominently.
posted by Rumple at 4:53 PM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
This 2X number is posted all over the place, but the Plaintiff's lawyer disagrees. The unanimity requirement is steep, but it may be the 2/10 who did not sign did so because they thought the damages should be even higher and or the jury had the 10/12 they needed and wanted to get out of school.
There will only be one witness tomorrow, a forensic accountant for the plaintiffs, who will attempt to establish Jones' net worth. As I noted, I would expect financial information from the data leak will figure prominently.
posted by Rumple at 4:53 PM on August 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
The verdict on compensatory was given count-by-count.
Does anybody have the list of what each count represents?
BTW, Dan Solomon deleted his original tweet, but I found a copy of the text:
Does anybody have the list of what each count represents?
BTW, Dan Solomon deleted his original tweet, but I found a copy of the text:
first count: $50,000\n2: $10k\n3: 50k\n4: 0\n5: 2.5m\n6: 500k\n7: 1.5m\nposted by cheshyre at 5:12 PM on August 4, 2022
Fyi, Solomon says he deleted his tweet due to a typo.
posted by cheshyre at 5:15 PM on August 4, 2022
Don’t wanna do a misinfo in a case about misinfoBut my question remains - what are the 8 counts?
posted by cheshyre at 5:15 PM on August 4, 2022
This 2X number is posted all over the place, but the Plaintiff's lawyer disagrees. The unanimity requirement is steep, but it may be the 2/10 who did not sign did so because they thought the damages should be even higher and or the jury had the 10/12 they needed and wanted to get out of school.
I think he's cannily avoiding discussing the 41.008 cap and rather addressing TX law on proportionality and other considerations in awarding punitives. The defense has to move for application of the cap in remittitur, the jury is barred from hearing of its existence. He's not going to make an admission that wins that motion for these morons let alone argue to the cap, maybe they'll fail to make or properly argue the motion given all their other lapses. We've already seen Barnes hasn't bothered to learn TX codes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:47 PM on August 4, 2022
I think he's cannily avoiding discussing the 41.008 cap and rather addressing TX law on proportionality and other considerations in awarding punitives. The defense has to move for application of the cap in remittitur, the jury is barred from hearing of its existence. He's not going to make an admission that wins that motion for these morons let alone argue to the cap, maybe they'll fail to make or properly argue the motion given all their other lapses. We've already seen Barnes hasn't bothered to learn TX codes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:47 PM on August 4, 2022
Hopefully Jones will got to prison for perjury. Then we can try him separately for treason for his involvement in Jan 6.
posted by interogative mood at 6:21 PM on August 4, 2022
posted by interogative mood at 6:21 PM on August 4, 2022
KF Reddit reporting Bill Ogden has said the cap will apply in the KF Discord, but can't say more until the end of the trial.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:34 PM on August 4, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:34 PM on August 4, 2022
And now, of course, there's child porn.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:19 AM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:19 AM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
TBF, I've heard that the child porn is in emails sent *to* Infowars by randos, not necessarily anything handled by Jones et al.
BTW, Emptywheel has more details on what was in the file transfer: not just Jones' phone, but apparently a backup of lawyer Norm Pattis' hard drive, with files on multiple cases.
posted by cheshyre at 8:26 AM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
BTW, Emptywheel has more details on what was in the file transfer: not just Jones' phone, but apparently a backup of lawyer Norm Pattis' hard drive, with files on multiple cases.
posted by cheshyre at 8:26 AM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Reynal's attempt to get a mistrial on his fuck up had real "begging for mercy because you're an orphan while on trial for murdering your parents" energy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:28 AM on August 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:28 AM on August 5, 2022 [14 favorites]
TBF, I've heard that the child porn is in emails sent *to* Infowars by randos, not necessarily anything handled by Jones et al.
He made it very clear during the trial he does not have an infowars email address.
posted by aubilenon at 10:54 AM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
He made it very clear during the trial he does not have an infowars email address.
posted by aubilenon at 10:54 AM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Jury is deliberating on the punitive damages as I post this, but contrary to some of the discussion above on award limits, the families' attorney Wesley Todd Ball, in closing arguments, "thanked the jury for their decision to award the $4.1 million, saying it had already made a huge difference in the parents' lives, and asked them to award enough in punitive damages to bring the total to $150 million." [source:CNNlite]
posted by glonous keming at 1:44 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by glonous keming at 1:44 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
TBF, I've heard that the child porn is in emails sent *to* Infowars by randos, not necessarily anything handled by Jones et al.
Seems like it should be easy enough for them to produce records of contemporaneous reports to the appropriate authorities.
posted by Etrigan at 1:58 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Seems like it should be easy enough for them to produce records of contemporaneous reports to the appropriate authorities.
posted by Etrigan at 1:58 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
The discrepancy between what Plaintiffs are asking for in punitive damages and Texas's statutory cap on punitive damages is because the jury is not instructed about the statutory cap. They're supposed to make their damages award without that knowledge.
posted by yasaman at 2:01 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 2:01 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
There are many things that should have been easy for them to produce, but they did not and were eventually defaulted on liability over it; with the trial proceeding only as to damages (and impaired even in that).
That's why the cell phone image's existence is so outrageous, and their blundering into exposing it so flabbergasting.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:38 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
That's why the cell phone image's existence is so outrageous, and their blundering into exposing it so flabbergasting.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:38 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Verdict is in.
Dan Solomon:
verdict is unanimous (obviously).
Count 1: $4.2m
Count 2: $20.5m
Count 3: $20.5m
Also:
keep in mind that this is about to bump up against Texas's punitive damages cap. that may get challenged in court, or it may become largely irrelevant in bankruptcy court.
posted by creepygirl at 2:52 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Dan Solomon:
verdict is unanimous (obviously).
Count 1: $4.2m
Count 2: $20.5m
Count 3: $20.5m
Also:
keep in mind that this is about to bump up against Texas's punitive damages cap. that may get challenged in court, or it may become largely irrelevant in bankruptcy court.
posted by creepygirl at 2:52 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Liz Dye: No matter what kind of haircut this verdict gets due to Texas's anti-plaintiff statutes, this is a stunning indictment of Jones's conduct with regard to these plaintiffs.
Reynal notes that he will be asking for that haircut.
Judge Gamble says "we have laws where we claim to trust our juries, but we don't really trust our juries, and no doubt the final judgment will reflect that."
posted by nubs at 3:06 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Reynal notes that he will be asking for that haircut.
Judge Gamble says "we have laws where we claim to trust our juries, but we don't really trust our juries, and no doubt the final judgment will reflect that."
posted by nubs at 3:06 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
First they came for Alex Jones's net worth and cell phone, and I cheered them on because Martin Niemöller's famous statement refers to genocidal fascists who murdered innocent people for their beliefs, not to a situation where some asshole is facing legal consequences for his monstrously abusive and corrupt behaviour.
posted by orange swan at 4:29 PM on August 5, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 4:29 PM on August 5, 2022 [19 favorites]
Plaintiffs lawyer Bankston says they will challenge any cap in court, but he says that could take years. In the meantime they will be intervening in the bankruptcy case that the full judgment needs to be set aside in case the appeal works. He also says it is likely that the other cases will do the same. The process for this, he says, will
Involve Federal auditors and he implies that will involve e a much more intense financial investigation than Jones has suffered so far.
Source is a current thread by @averytravistv which I can’t link because mobile app or whatever.
posted by Rumple at 4:38 PM on August 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Involve Federal auditors and he implies that will involve e a much more intense financial investigation than Jones has suffered so far.
Source is a current thread by @averytravistv which I can’t link because mobile app or whatever.
posted by Rumple at 4:38 PM on August 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
I love the Plaintiff team, but they're not going to overturn the cap under either the TX or US Constitutions; and I can't even figure out what he's talking about with default somehow giving rise to a new exception if it's predicated on the jury right.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:33 PM on August 5, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:33 PM on August 5, 2022
From tumblr user unpretty:
the texas defamation suit against alex jones started in 2018posted by nonethefewer at 6:18 PM on August 5, 2022 [18 favorites]
he didn't get a default judgment for refusing to turn over any of the documents asked of him until october of 2021
if he'd handed everything over in 2018. in 2019. in 2020. his text messages wouldn't have included january 6th, 2021.
god. the self-own of it all.
“It’s time to mount my throbbing insurrection,” Roger growled.
#jonestoneeroticfanfic
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 6:59 PM on August 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
#jonestoneeroticfanfic
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 6:59 PM on August 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Source is a current thread by @averytravistv which I can’t link because mobile app or whatever.
From the same account:
After the verdict, in a touching moment, I watched Mr. Heslin give pictures of his son to the Sheriff’s deputies at the courthouse.
Bear in mind that while the damages trial was going on, Alex Jones went on air to insult and attack Heslin yet again.
I can't begin to imagine the deep well of patience and human decency Heslin has to have in order to pursue this by legal means only.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:46 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
From the same account:
After the verdict, in a touching moment, I watched Mr. Heslin give pictures of his son to the Sheriff’s deputies at the courthouse.
Bear in mind that while the damages trial was going on, Alex Jones went on air to insult and attack Heslin yet again.
I can't begin to imagine the deep well of patience and human decency Heslin has to have in order to pursue this by legal means only.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:46 PM on August 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Per Rumple's comment above, here's Bankston saying 1) he thinks they have a good chance of fighting the cap since a default judgment has already been entered against Jones (I have no idea if that's accurate), but in fact 2) "nobody's going to waste their money" spending 2 years to get to the Texas Supreme Court because "We're going to that bankruptcy court" where "the corpse of Infowars" will be carved up, and he expects to get much more than the cap out of that process, possibly even "ultimately collect our entire punitive damage argument."
Wishful thinking? Happy talk for the press to make it seem like a big victory? I dunno, but I sure as hell hope he's right.
posted by mediareport at 8:44 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wishful thinking? Happy talk for the press to make it seem like a big victory? I dunno, but I sure as hell hope he's right.
posted by mediareport at 8:44 PM on August 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Probably just my own wishful thinking, but if Bankston is just shit-talking, I still enjoy imagining Jones going to his lawyer "can they do that?!" and the lawyer trying to placate him and Jones not being able to accept that because his lawyer has egregiously fucked up so far and the lawyer then firing him as a client and ...
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:15 PM on August 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:15 PM on August 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
I could read the headline 45 million times, Sauce Trough
posted by Rumple at 12:11 AM on August 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 12:11 AM on August 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
It occurs to me that if the text messages on AJ's phone are what I expect they are, then having them subpoena-able and available to the Jan 6 committee might well mean that Alex Jones has, in fact, saved America from fascism, *just like he always said he was destined to do*.
posted by Scattercat at 1:40 AM on August 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 1:40 AM on August 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yes, perhaps the whole grift is finally unravelling. I hope it won't be too late for the November elections...
posted by mumimor at 1:58 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 1:58 AM on August 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
The bankruptcy stuff makes no sense to me, the judgment isn't going to be entered as rendered for them to take to the BK court. Either it will be entered as capped; or there will be motions and an appeal. The Judge said as much herself (in so many words).
I think Bankston was understandably in a somewhat altered state having just got a nearly $50M verdict (in sum) and the aim is to find a novel theory to hold it open on appeal with the aim of settling for more than the cap.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:19 AM on August 6, 2022
I think Bankston was understandably in a somewhat altered state having just got a nearly $50M verdict (in sum) and the aim is to find a novel theory to hold it open on appeal with the aim of settling for more than the cap.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:19 AM on August 6, 2022
Roger Stone Urges Alex Jones to Sue His Own Lawyer as 'Intimate Messages' Between Duo Leak
posted by ryanrs at 9:25 PM on August 7, 2022
posted by ryanrs at 9:25 PM on August 7, 2022
So, I read the link, and it doesn't address this question - when Roger Stone says "intimate messages", does he mean.....?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:40 AM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:40 AM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
On the knowledge fight reddit someone reported that the only thing Alex Jones really mentioned about his phone on his show was a nude picture of his (AJ) wife. There was no mention of Roger Stone.
Obviously that's not the only thing on the phone, and it is probably just Alex BSing and trying to distract from everything else that's on there. But in the context of "intimate" messages being reported to Stone it is definitely eyebrow raising.
I haven't been listening to KnowledgeFight very long, but from what I've heard Roger Stone isn't that far off of Alex when it comes to just spouting nonsense. So I'm not sure that "intimate" was a thought out choice in words or just a synonym in Roger's head for "we're screwed if these get out."
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:30 AM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Obviously that's not the only thing on the phone, and it is probably just Alex BSing and trying to distract from everything else that's on there. But in the context of "intimate" messages being reported to Stone it is definitely eyebrow raising.
I haven't been listening to KnowledgeFight very long, but from what I've heard Roger Stone isn't that far off of Alex when it comes to just spouting nonsense. So I'm not sure that "intimate" was a thought out choice in words or just a synonym in Roger's head for "we're screwed if these get out."
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:30 AM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Roger Stone and his wife were or are swingers, he has copped to this in the past. My money is on him sending AJ nudes of his wife or something like that.
posted by cakelite at 7:34 AM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cakelite at 7:34 AM on August 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
When I made my comment I was more remarking on the unusual word choice, but cakelite now has me wondering for real...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:51 AM on August 8, 2022
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:51 AM on August 8, 2022
CNN is reporting that Alex Jones' texts have been turned over to the January 6th committee.
"Approximately two years' worth of text messages sent and received by right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones have been turned over to the House select committee investigating the January 6 insurrection, a person familiar with the matter told CNN on Monday.
The messages were handed over to the committee by Mark Bankston, the attorney who represented two Sandy Hook parents who successfully sued Jones in Texas and won nearly $50 million in a civil trial that concluded last week.
Bankston would only tell CNN that he is "cooperating with the committee."
The select committee declined to comment."
posted by Rumple at 11:02 AM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Approximately two years' worth of text messages sent and received by right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones have been turned over to the House select committee investigating the January 6 insurrection, a person familiar with the matter told CNN on Monday.
The messages were handed over to the committee by Mark Bankston, the attorney who represented two Sandy Hook parents who successfully sued Jones in Texas and won nearly $50 million in a civil trial that concluded last week.
Bankston would only tell CNN that he is "cooperating with the committee."
The select committee declined to comment."
posted by Rumple at 11:02 AM on August 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'd presume the committee having them means the Department of Justice will too.
I doubt Jones and Stone are the only ones sweating.
posted by Gelatin at 11:31 AM on August 8, 2022
I doubt Jones and Stone are the only ones sweating.
posted by Gelatin at 11:31 AM on August 8, 2022
So apparently Roger Stone really did mean "intimate messages" in the way you think.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:48 AM on August 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Daily Beast: "Tucker Carlson is 'shitting himself' over the possibility that texts between him and far-right conspiracy loon Alex Jones will leak, a source close to the Fox News star told Confider."
It seems that Carlson and Jones text each other daily.
posted by orange swan at 11:53 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
It seems that Carlson and Jones text each other daily.
posted by orange swan at 11:53 AM on August 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's a request for a leak if I ever heard one, and I heard Donald Trump ask Russia to give him dirt on his opponent.
posted by Gelatin at 12:00 PM on August 9, 2022
posted by Gelatin at 12:00 PM on August 9, 2022
So apparently Roger Stone really did mean "intimate messages" in the way you think.
It was nonconsentual, too, if you didn't think Jones was enough of a scumbag.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
It was nonconsentual, too, if you didn't think Jones was enough of a scumbag.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
This has broken my brain over and over. I knew what had happened but just watched the Legal Eagle video stunned again at how amazing it is. Including the lawyer for Jones just not objecting or speaking up at all while it happens.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:06 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:06 AM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Including the lawyer for Jones just not objecting or speaking up at all while it happens.
The sense I got there was part Reynal realizing he fucked up royally, and part him thinking that he could play this as "those nefarious plaintiff's lawyers." Which wound up not working for him when Bankston pointed out that "please disregard" is not legally binding, most of what he got were documents he had a legal right to, and that if he hadn't played games with discovery, he wouldn't be in this position.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:18 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
The sense I got there was part Reynal realizing he fucked up royally, and part him thinking that he could play this as "those nefarious plaintiff's lawyers." Which wound up not working for him when Bankston pointed out that "please disregard" is not legally binding, most of what he got were documents he had a legal right to, and that if he hadn't played games with discovery, he wouldn't be in this position.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:18 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
he may also have been in shock, struck mute. Complicit in Jones' bullshit. Possibly on his way to disbarment, jail ...
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on August 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm guessing Reynal's onboarding conversation with Jones included the line "You don't need a criminal lawyer... What you need a criminal lawyer."
posted by kaibutsu at 12:19 PM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 12:19 PM on August 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
Tucker Carlson shitting himself in fear, Legal Eagle trying not to crap his suit pants from laughing. Good times.
posted by flabdablet at 4:30 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 4:30 PM on August 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Including the lawyer for Jones just not objecting or speaking up at all while it happens.
Was there realistically anything he could say that wouldn't have made things worse?
posted by orange swan at 6:09 PM on August 12, 2022
Was there realistically anything he could say that wouldn't have made things worse?
posted by orange swan at 6:09 PM on August 12, 2022
Apparently, there was an emergency hearing in the bankruptcy trial, this time over the processing of the boost in pill sales after the trial.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:01 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:01 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Was there realistically anything he could say that wouldn't have made things worse?
No, but that's been the case since he took on Alex Jones as a client.
posted by flabdablet at 9:48 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
No, but that's been the case since he took on Alex Jones as a client.
posted by flabdablet at 9:48 PM on August 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Alex Jones's lawyers in CT court today for a sanctions hearing about the CT plantiff's medical records getting released during the phone data dump. Liz Dye with the tweeting.
posted by nubs at 8:01 AM on August 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 8:01 AM on August 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
Cameras were off for the second portion, livetweeted by a local reporter here.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:19 AM on August 17, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:19 AM on August 17, 2022
One of the lawyers started things off by arguing that the bankruptcy hearing precludes the judge from disciplining them which is...bold move, Cotton.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:24 AM on August 17, 2022
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:24 AM on August 17, 2022
Back from recess. Current thread from the local reporter, Frankie Graziano.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on August 17, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on August 17, 2022
...which concluded with:
The Norm Pattis show cause hearings were supposed to be wrapped Friday. But chief disciplinary counsel Brian Staines has asked to interview rest of his witnesses on same day Andino Reynal will testify in his show cause hearing. Adjourned.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:23 PM on August 17, 2022
The Norm Pattis show cause hearings were supposed to be wrapped Friday. But chief disciplinary counsel Brian Staines has asked to interview rest of his witnesses on same day Andino Reynal will testify in his show cause hearing. Adjourned.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:23 PM on August 17, 2022
And in today's hearing, Jones' CT lawyer took the 5th.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:33 PM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:33 PM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by NoxAeternum at 1:04 PM on July 29, 2022 [84 favorites]