A conversation with a hoarding consultant.
August 13, 2022 6:47 PM Subscribe
Taking Out Trash That Was Someone Else’s Treasure [SLNYT]
“The majority of hoarders have lived in the same place for decades, in some cases their whole lives. For the most part they’re very smart, successful, well traveled, with degrees from elite universities. No one knows what they’re like at home, and in some cases alcohol plays a major role.”
archive link
“For women, sometimes it’s as if they just lose their drive for life. Men especially will let grime accumulate everywhere; we cleaned up after a guy who had entirely covered the floor with empty cat food cans. A lot of animals are affected by this disease, too, having to live with garbage piled up and the owner sleeping on a mattress with the springs poking out.”
archive link
“For women, sometimes it’s as if they just lose their drive for life. Men especially will let grime accumulate everywhere; we cleaned up after a guy who had entirely covered the floor with empty cat food cans. A lot of animals are affected by this disease, too, having to live with garbage piled up and the owner sleeping on a mattress with the springs poking out.”
I try to share about frontotemporal dementia wherever I can, because it’s so underrecognized among families and even medical professionals.
Hoarding is one of many compulsions that can be expressed in the behavioural variant.
It often goes along with behaviours that could fall under personality and mood disorders like NPD or bipolar disorder.
It can manifest without memory problems and at a young age (40 is common but even 20 isn’t unheard of).
It is a neurological disorder that no amount of therapy can help with that needs to be assessed by a neurologist with an understanding of FTD. (Rarely, psychiatrists are aware of it, but many are likely to call it something else/less helpful. Neurologists, specifically those at relevant research centres are the people to talk to.)
If your family member is a hoarder, they might have FTD. (It’s not the only reason people hoard, but FTD is a reason some do.)
https://memory.ucsf.edu/dementia/ftd/behavioral-variant-frontotemporal-dementia
https://www.theaftd.org/
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:23 PM on August 13, 2022 [61 favorites]
Hoarding is one of many compulsions that can be expressed in the behavioural variant.
It often goes along with behaviours that could fall under personality and mood disorders like NPD or bipolar disorder.
It can manifest without memory problems and at a young age (40 is common but even 20 isn’t unheard of).
It is a neurological disorder that no amount of therapy can help with that needs to be assessed by a neurologist with an understanding of FTD. (Rarely, psychiatrists are aware of it, but many are likely to call it something else/less helpful. Neurologists, specifically those at relevant research centres are the people to talk to.)
If your family member is a hoarder, they might have FTD. (It’s not the only reason people hoard, but FTD is a reason some do.)
https://memory.ucsf.edu/dementia/ftd/behavioral-variant-frontotemporal-dementia
https://www.theaftd.org/
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:23 PM on August 13, 2022 [61 favorites]
I feel weird about the ending to this interview, like, they are bringing the job home if they are so reactive?:
I bring nothing home from the job. I try not to buy things that I’ve seen in hoards. And if I see something I own personally when I’m at a hoard, I throw it away when I get home.posted by spamandkimchi at 7:32 PM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I feel weird about the ending to this interview, like, they are bringing the job home if they are so reactive?
I thought it was an excellent question for this reason, in that they went to the physical interpretation (no, I don't bring any of these things home) but their answer also revealed the figurative interpretation (yes, it affects them significantly off work).
posted by solarion at 7:45 PM on August 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
I thought it was an excellent question for this reason, in that they went to the physical interpretation (no, I don't bring any of these things home) but their answer also revealed the figurative interpretation (yes, it affects them significantly off work).
posted by solarion at 7:45 PM on August 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
It is a neurological disorder that no amount of therapy can help with that needs to be assessed by a neurologist with an understanding of FTD.
cotton dress sock, until I read this article I’ve always considered hoarding a self-harm/self-comfort behavior like shoplifting or addiction. If you have a low opinion of yourself you may do something self-harming like shop too much to comfort yourself even though it turns into debt or hoarding. What percentage of people have FTD?
posted by bendy at 8:33 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
cotton dress sock, until I read this article I’ve always considered hoarding a self-harm/self-comfort behavior like shoplifting or addiction. If you have a low opinion of yourself you may do something self-harming like shop too much to comfort yourself even though it turns into debt or hoarding. What percentage of people have FTD?
posted by bendy at 8:33 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think it's really telling that for many people "what do you bring home from your job?" is clearly about mental baggage or stress but in this case they heard it as "do you bring home physical objects from your job" and the answer is "not only do I never do that, but if something in my house ends up reminding me of my job that item is no longer welcome in my house"
posted by potrzebie at 8:51 PM on August 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 8:51 PM on August 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
I honestly started the article thinking that it would be a job I might enjoy and then got to the blood, feces, cockroaches and rats, and decided, no, I'd pay someone $20k to do it for me.
posted by Toddles at 8:58 PM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 8:58 PM on August 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I thought it was an excellent question for this reason, in that they went to the physical interpretation (no, I don't bring any of these things home) but their answer also revealed the figurative interpretation (yes, it affects them significantly off work).
That was my reaction as well. "I do not want to become what I've seen."
posted by mhoye at 9:00 PM on August 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
That was my reaction as well. "I do not want to become what I've seen."
posted by mhoye at 9:00 PM on August 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
bendy, prevalence is hard to figure out, it really depends on how you slice it. It’s certainly underdiagnosed. Here are some estimates from a recent paper:
>FTD prevalence was estimated between 0.01–4.61 per 1000 person and the incidence between 0.01–2.5 per 1000 person/year [9]. In recent dementia cohorts, FTD cases have been found to account for 1.6 to 7% of dementia cases [10, 11]. However, those figures need to be considered with caution. First, FTD is still underdiagnosed: neuropathological studies performed in communities where brain donation reaches a high level of acceptance show that as much as 5–9% of the elderly population with or without cognitive impairment at death has FTD pathology [12, 13]. It has been previously estimated that about 40% of FTD are misdiagnosed [14] and time to diagnosis is longer than for other dementias [15, 16]. Second, with some exceptions [17], most past estimations have been done using the previous Lund and Manchester [18] or Neary criteria [19]. Yet, the revised clinical criteria and the addition of new syndromes to the FTD spectrum outdate previous publications. Third, advances in neuropsychology, neuroimaging, and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) biomarkers and genetics have improved FTD diagnosis in challenging situations such as psychiatric, amnestic, or late-onset presentations of the disease [20,21,22].
https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-020-00753-9
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:41 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
>FTD prevalence was estimated between 0.01–4.61 per 1000 person and the incidence between 0.01–2.5 per 1000 person/year [9]. In recent dementia cohorts, FTD cases have been found to account for 1.6 to 7% of dementia cases [10, 11]. However, those figures need to be considered with caution. First, FTD is still underdiagnosed: neuropathological studies performed in communities where brain donation reaches a high level of acceptance show that as much as 5–9% of the elderly population with or without cognitive impairment at death has FTD pathology [12, 13]. It has been previously estimated that about 40% of FTD are misdiagnosed [14] and time to diagnosis is longer than for other dementias [15, 16]. Second, with some exceptions [17], most past estimations have been done using the previous Lund and Manchester [18] or Neary criteria [19]. Yet, the revised clinical criteria and the addition of new syndromes to the FTD spectrum outdate previous publications. Third, advances in neuropsychology, neuroimaging, and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) biomarkers and genetics have improved FTD diagnosis in challenging situations such as psychiatric, amnestic, or late-onset presentations of the disease [20,21,22].
https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-020-00753-9
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:41 PM on August 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
This article describes an experience very close to what I’ve watched on Hoarders. Some times there’s something really unique found in the hoard and I wonder if the workers ever take stuff home. The last Q/A was an answer to that.
posted by bendy at 11:27 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bendy at 11:27 PM on August 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am so glad that hoarding is being discussed more and discussed more with compassion than shame or blame. It absolutely is related to mental illness and it deserves to be discussed and treated with the same respect that we should show to all forms of illness. The price is high but it is hard -- and often dirty -- work. I thought the interviewee responded with a great mix of honesty and kindness.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:53 PM on August 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 11:53 PM on August 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
And if I see something I own personally when I’m at a hoard, I throw it away when I get home.
I thought it was an interesting sentence because not only are we all hoarders to some extent- but there is maybe even a degree to which being too minimalist, too anti hoarding, is also maladaptive.
I would also be interested in an assessment of what other animals hoard stuff. I’ve never particularly heard of it in other primates. Only maybe animals like those birds who build hoards of curated objects for displaying to others.
posted by rongorongo at 1:11 AM on August 14, 2022
I thought it was an interesting sentence because not only are we all hoarders to some extent- but there is maybe even a degree to which being too minimalist, too anti hoarding, is also maladaptive.
I would also be interested in an assessment of what other animals hoard stuff. I’ve never particularly heard of it in other primates. Only maybe animals like those birds who build hoards of curated objects for displaying to others.
posted by rongorongo at 1:11 AM on August 14, 2022
I fear I may be a first cousin to this behaviour.
Last fall I entered rehab after what was essentially an 8 year binge, though I spent a lot of 2021 trying to quit drinking.
When I got out I came back to my 1 bedroom, quite dismayed at the mess that awaited.
I am an artist, and I do large paintings on wood panel, and I pretty much never sell them. That, and the smaller artworks, and literally hundreds of finished drawings in my place means that I am almost out of room.
And as well, the years of drinking, and repeat depressive episodes also means that I am at wits end with my place because I let things slide literally for years on end.
When I got out of rehab back in January I made a pretty huge attempt to clean up, throwing out all sorts of things I have had for decades, like clothes that will never fit me again, etc. But lately, with being on graveyards full time at work for the last 4 months, that has slowed down to nothing. It just feels like a massive uphill struggle. So this article hits close to home for me.
I joke from time to time that one day all the art will collapse on me, trapping me, until I starve to death but in real terms I need to find a way forward, and I certainly do not have the resources to hire anyone.
I'm not sure where I'm going with any of this but it does feel like a chance to acknowledge that I am very aware of similar behaviours in me though I am also aware that it is a huge issue.
Thank you for the post, it's extraordinarily helpful.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 3:12 AM on August 14, 2022 [42 favorites]
Last fall I entered rehab after what was essentially an 8 year binge, though I spent a lot of 2021 trying to quit drinking.
When I got out I came back to my 1 bedroom, quite dismayed at the mess that awaited.
I am an artist, and I do large paintings on wood panel, and I pretty much never sell them. That, and the smaller artworks, and literally hundreds of finished drawings in my place means that I am almost out of room.
And as well, the years of drinking, and repeat depressive episodes also means that I am at wits end with my place because I let things slide literally for years on end.
When I got out of rehab back in January I made a pretty huge attempt to clean up, throwing out all sorts of things I have had for decades, like clothes that will never fit me again, etc. But lately, with being on graveyards full time at work for the last 4 months, that has slowed down to nothing. It just feels like a massive uphill struggle. So this article hits close to home for me.
I joke from time to time that one day all the art will collapse on me, trapping me, until I starve to death but in real terms I need to find a way forward, and I certainly do not have the resources to hire anyone.
I'm not sure where I'm going with any of this but it does feel like a chance to acknowledge that I am very aware of similar behaviours in me though I am also aware that it is a huge issue.
Thank you for the post, it's extraordinarily helpful.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 3:12 AM on August 14, 2022 [42 favorites]
I was married to a hoarder. It was terrible. Two things I found most confusing/ distressing about the condition: first, trying to talk to him about it was like hitting conversational black ice - he would veer to conversation into any other unrelated direction. He would neither acknowledge nor discuss the accumulation of useless stuff or his inability to contain, organize, or assess the value of and possibly purge the things he had brought home that were literally junk (think knock-off items from the cut-out bins from dollar stores and broken furniture and Christmas decorations that other people and left out for trash collection.)
The more concerning — he was, by nature, a very gentle person, capable of dealing with tense situations with incredible calm and care, but he would get MEAN when the topic came up. He would fight and yell at his closest people, even his children, when we would try to push to actually toss out the broken things that had been sitting in the living spaces for months or years making the house unlivable. At least one pet died from the secondary unsanitary conditions caused by the hoarding, and he still did not seek help. It’s a confusing and terrible condition , and those who are close enough to see it; to care; are so helpless.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:31 AM on August 14, 2022 [47 favorites]
The more concerning — he was, by nature, a very gentle person, capable of dealing with tense situations with incredible calm and care, but he would get MEAN when the topic came up. He would fight and yell at his closest people, even his children, when we would try to push to actually toss out the broken things that had been sitting in the living spaces for months or years making the house unlivable. At least one pet died from the secondary unsanitary conditions caused by the hoarding, and he still did not seek help. It’s a confusing and terrible condition , and those who are close enough to see it; to care; are so helpless.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:31 AM on August 14, 2022 [47 favorites]
When I was a kid my parents allocated sections of the attic to my brother and me, for stuff that we wanted to keep in excess of what could be stored presentably in our rooms. Over maybe three or four years I filled my space with all sorts of things to which I'd attached some value or significance. Then one day, when I was about 12, something in my head clicked over to a new setting. I went up into the attic, surveyed the deep piles of treasure I'd accumulated, and carried 95% of it out to the trash.
Since then I've gotten up-close looks at several hoarding situations, in the houses of neighbors, a landlord, a friend's uncle, my own uncle, and even at work. I always feel a lot of sympathy, and pangs of There but for the grace of God. So much identity, sentiment, hope, and aspiration can be tied up in the moldering, corroded, mouse dropping-bespeckled stacks of things.
I've helped with a couple of cleanouts, and taken a few things from them home, that could be restored to some combination of usefulness and beauty. I do enjoy those things, and put them to practical use, but they also have a less obvious function. Gently, persistently, they whisper a warning.
posted by jon1270 at 6:00 AM on August 14, 2022 [21 favorites]
Since then I've gotten up-close looks at several hoarding situations, in the houses of neighbors, a landlord, a friend's uncle, my own uncle, and even at work. I always feel a lot of sympathy, and pangs of There but for the grace of God. So much identity, sentiment, hope, and aspiration can be tied up in the moldering, corroded, mouse dropping-bespeckled stacks of things.
I've helped with a couple of cleanouts, and taken a few things from them home, that could be restored to some combination of usefulness and beauty. I do enjoy those things, and put them to practical use, but they also have a less obvious function. Gently, persistently, they whisper a warning.
posted by jon1270 at 6:00 AM on August 14, 2022 [21 favorites]
I used to watch hoarding shows on cable to pass the time, until an episode of Hoarders (the one on A&E, whatever it's titled) showed evidence of animal neglect so horrible to me that it ruined my night. I won't describe it. But what drew me to those shows wasn't gawking at the hoards; instead, it was the obvious trauma that the hoarders described. I'm sure that the producers played it up to show a throughline to the audience and a pat explanation, but assuming their stories were true, they always touched a chord.
My grandmother was an agoraphobic hoarder. It was a mild case, prevented from becoming tragic by my long-suffering grandfather who kept the house clean and the items confined to two rooms. For that reason, we couldn't really talk about it as "hoarding" behavior, especially since people of her background simply did not get therapy -- hell, she wouldn't even go to doctors. She had an addiction to QVC, and to this day the kind of 1980s trinkets they sold, especially overdressed dolls and gem-encrusted perfume bottles, make me miss her in a painful way. She was sure they'd be worth something some day.
I know, too, that she was a very close woman with a specific narrative about what her life was like, but that she had other mental health symptoms associated with early childhood trauma. I expect I won't ever know anything else about this. All I'll know is the way she collected things.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:28 AM on August 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
My grandmother was an agoraphobic hoarder. It was a mild case, prevented from becoming tragic by my long-suffering grandfather who kept the house clean and the items confined to two rooms. For that reason, we couldn't really talk about it as "hoarding" behavior, especially since people of her background simply did not get therapy -- hell, she wouldn't even go to doctors. She had an addiction to QVC, and to this day the kind of 1980s trinkets they sold, especially overdressed dolls and gem-encrusted perfume bottles, make me miss her in a painful way. She was sure they'd be worth something some day.
I know, too, that she was a very close woman with a specific narrative about what her life was like, but that she had other mental health symptoms associated with early childhood trauma. I expect I won't ever know anything else about this. All I'll know is the way she collected things.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:28 AM on August 14, 2022 [15 favorites]
I've worked with tenants who are in eviction proceedings because of hoarding/clutter. (I'm not familiar with this person because my clients could never afford her.) There's a difference between hoarding and clutter. Hoarding is "active," the person chooses to keep things and is attached to them. Clutter is passive. The person hasn't been able to manage their home due to depression, substance abuse, age, etc. It's not a clean demarcation between the two, but the big difference is their reaction to a clean-out. The true hoaders resist it. They may on some level understand that their home is in a dangerous condition and want to cleaned out in a sort of abstract sense, but when it comes to all that stuff, it's important to them, even the "trash." Clutterers welcome the help. It's still traumatic because you have strangers in your home, going through your stuff, and there is a risk of losing important things in the rush to clean out the apartment.
In NYC, people who can't afford expensive hoarding consultants end up with Adult Protective Services' heavy duty cleaning contractors. They're the lowest bidders on a government contract. They come in and indiscriminately throw everything away. They're not trained or paid to support the person or help them make decisions about what to keep. We've all heard horror stories about important documents, family photos, and valuables going into the trash. And there's no follow up, so a hoarder will hoard again. Someone who can't keep up their apartment due to a non-hoarding impairment will build up mess and dirt again.
I find hoarding cases and clients fascinating--the things they keep and how they keep them. I had a client with a meticulously organized hoard. His apartment was pristine but 90% full of his brand-new, boxed up hoard. He wouldn't part with any of it. I've also had urine bottles buried under geologic layers of detritus. They're exhausting, difficult cases for everyone involved. The trauma to the clients is significant and there's no support at all.
Randy Frost is a psychologist who studies hoarding, very interesting reading if you want to know more about it.
posted by Mavri at 8:30 AM on August 14, 2022 [24 favorites]
In NYC, people who can't afford expensive hoarding consultants end up with Adult Protective Services' heavy duty cleaning contractors. They're the lowest bidders on a government contract. They come in and indiscriminately throw everything away. They're not trained or paid to support the person or help them make decisions about what to keep. We've all heard horror stories about important documents, family photos, and valuables going into the trash. And there's no follow up, so a hoarder will hoard again. Someone who can't keep up their apartment due to a non-hoarding impairment will build up mess and dirt again.
I find hoarding cases and clients fascinating--the things they keep and how they keep them. I had a client with a meticulously organized hoard. His apartment was pristine but 90% full of his brand-new, boxed up hoard. He wouldn't part with any of it. I've also had urine bottles buried under geologic layers of detritus. They're exhausting, difficult cases for everyone involved. The trauma to the clients is significant and there's no support at all.
Randy Frost is a psychologist who studies hoarding, very interesting reading if you want to know more about it.
posted by Mavri at 8:30 AM on August 14, 2022 [24 favorites]
Ouch. This hits a little close to home. As a tinkerer/hacker/maker (both by inclination and by profession), I've got a lifetime of tools, parts and bits around. Also, I am a bit prone to clutter.
Here's my rationalization: "wow, I could do X with this". And often, there are many projects that I have been able to conceive and start immediately, just with the stuff and tools I have on hand. That's very satisfying. But... there's probably way more here that I will never use.
Mrs C has been patient, but she also puts her foot down about what I bring home and keep. If something is a curbside find, I either have to use it immediately, or strip it for what is genuinely useful and pitch the rest ASAP. It's a running joke actually. When there's interesting stuff on the roadside, I will slow down, and she says "don't even think about it". She keeps me out of the pathological category. With retirement I'm also more mindful of what I will actually, truly use in the next 10 years, and what sort of mess would be left if I unexpectedly pass early.
My architect friend isn't so fortunate. He has been hoarding materials and tools all his life to complete his still-unfinished house. His basement and garage are barely passable for the stuff in there. And it intrudes into the living space. His wife left him about 10 years ago.
You don't own stuff; stuff owns you.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:51 AM on August 14, 2022 [26 favorites]
Here's my rationalization: "wow, I could do X with this". And often, there are many projects that I have been able to conceive and start immediately, just with the stuff and tools I have on hand. That's very satisfying. But... there's probably way more here that I will never use.
Mrs C has been patient, but she also puts her foot down about what I bring home and keep. If something is a curbside find, I either have to use it immediately, or strip it for what is genuinely useful and pitch the rest ASAP. It's a running joke actually. When there's interesting stuff on the roadside, I will slow down, and she says "don't even think about it". She keeps me out of the pathological category. With retirement I'm also more mindful of what I will actually, truly use in the next 10 years, and what sort of mess would be left if I unexpectedly pass early.
My architect friend isn't so fortunate. He has been hoarding materials and tools all his life to complete his still-unfinished house. His basement and garage are barely passable for the stuff in there. And it intrudes into the living space. His wife left him about 10 years ago.
You don't own stuff; stuff owns you.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:51 AM on August 14, 2022 [26 favorites]
I thought it was an excellent question for this reason, in that they went to the physical interpretation (no, I don't bring any of these things home) but their answer also revealed the figurative interpretation (yes, it affects them significantly off work).
That was my reaction as well. "I do not want to become what I've seen."
My father has some PTSD relating to his work in the fire service. He refuses to seek treatment for it, or even acknowledge that's there. It manifests as hoarding, and he's been slowly filling the family home, room by room, with all manner of shit.
Fire fighters in Australia often take second jobs as the roster structure allows blocks of two to four days off at a time. He can't abide with time off, and took a job driving a garbage skip. He'd often wind up going to hoarder situations with a skip to collect the refuse. Tragic, he'd say, just people wasting away behind walls of stuff, and tragic too all that useful stuff just going into the bin...
...and with no self reflection, he'd bring it all home. If it wasn't literal trash he'd fish it out and store it wherever it would fit, then just leave it there.
His health has taken him out of that job thank God. One of my more patient sisters has started clearing it all out - the piles of other people's shit - and he still fights it. It's stuff with no emotional connection and he can't even remember what a lot of it is. It's a compulsion, and until he realizes that it's just coming back again once she stops.
posted by Jilder at 4:37 PM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
That was my reaction as well. "I do not want to become what I've seen."
My father has some PTSD relating to his work in the fire service. He refuses to seek treatment for it, or even acknowledge that's there. It manifests as hoarding, and he's been slowly filling the family home, room by room, with all manner of shit.
Fire fighters in Australia often take second jobs as the roster structure allows blocks of two to four days off at a time. He can't abide with time off, and took a job driving a garbage skip. He'd often wind up going to hoarder situations with a skip to collect the refuse. Tragic, he'd say, just people wasting away behind walls of stuff, and tragic too all that useful stuff just going into the bin...
...and with no self reflection, he'd bring it all home. If it wasn't literal trash he'd fish it out and store it wherever it would fit, then just leave it there.
His health has taken him out of that job thank God. One of my more patient sisters has started clearing it all out - the piles of other people's shit - and he still fights it. It's stuff with no emotional connection and he can't even remember what a lot of it is. It's a compulsion, and until he realizes that it's just coming back again once she stops.
posted by Jilder at 4:37 PM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hoarding runs in my gene pool and I absolutely know someday I'll snap, lose it, and become a hoarder someday. It took most of a year to clean out my grandmother's house and my mother started hoarding circa 2005 once my father went into the hospital. I'll probably start hoarding once she dies because I guess death brings it on. I pity my cousin because she'll be the closest relative to me after I die alone in my hoard and she doesn't even know she'll be stuck with it yet.
As far as I have been able to find out, nobody knows how to help or stop this behavior at all and there's just really nothing to do, other than wait for the hoarder to die and clear it out. If you try to do i while they're alive, they'll throw fits and just acquire more shit again.
I have long since given up on trying to "help" my mother (once she refused to throw out multiple printouts of email forwards, WHY BOTHER), she won't accept it except if it's the "right" help, she won't do anything anyway, then she whines that she never has time to work on it. (I note that she's living with her boyfriend, who has "no idea" she's a hoarder. I suspect he suspects but knows he'd lose it if he found out, so he smartly keeps his head in the sand.)
So far I can still get rid of stuff periodically, but someday I know I'll lose it too. It's inevitable. Lose a person you can't lose, then you can't stand to lose ANY stuff either, seems to be the logic.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:28 PM on August 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
As far as I have been able to find out, nobody knows how to help or stop this behavior at all and there's just really nothing to do, other than wait for the hoarder to die and clear it out. If you try to do i while they're alive, they'll throw fits and just acquire more shit again.
I have long since given up on trying to "help" my mother (once she refused to throw out multiple printouts of email forwards, WHY BOTHER), she won't accept it except if it's the "right" help, she won't do anything anyway, then she whines that she never has time to work on it. (I note that she's living with her boyfriend, who has "no idea" she's a hoarder. I suspect he suspects but knows he'd lose it if he found out, so he smartly keeps his head in the sand.)
So far I can still get rid of stuff periodically, but someday I know I'll lose it too. It's inevitable. Lose a person you can't lose, then you can't stand to lose ANY stuff either, seems to be the logic.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:28 PM on August 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
These stories always remind of the Collyer Brothers.
I was wondering how far back the disorder had been recognized, and apparently Dante mentions hoarding in The Inferno.
posted by gottabefunky at 11:40 PM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was wondering how far back the disorder had been recognized, and apparently Dante mentions hoarding in The Inferno.
posted by gottabefunky at 11:40 PM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's book hoarding that runs in my family. Books and other written material.
My house is maxed out on shelf capacity, but right now I have empty shelves while I wait to figure out how to get my remaining books out of storage (there was a complicated house move that necessitated use of storage), and... I'd like to think I'll stop buying books so profligately when the shelves are all full, but I worry. Buying books is definitely one of my hobbies.
I have stacks of magazines that I didn't choose to bring into the house (you give a charity some money each month, they send you a magazine, you can't opt out because advertisers) and will never read, but feel guilty throwing away, because "people worked hard on that" and "someday someone might be desperately looking for that issue" and "it's a piece of history" and "it's wasteful to throw it away without reading it". I know these are not good arguments. The second one isn't even valid - it's not as if I'm advertising a list of back issues anywhere - and neither's the third, given that actual archives are a thing that exist and my house is not one. And yet the piles remain.
I don't feel comfortable getting rid of documentary evidence of my life - old credit card statements, water bills etc. Fine with recycling the instructions for an appliance I no longer own though, so at least there's that.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:52 AM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
My house is maxed out on shelf capacity, but right now I have empty shelves while I wait to figure out how to get my remaining books out of storage (there was a complicated house move that necessitated use of storage), and... I'd like to think I'll stop buying books so profligately when the shelves are all full, but I worry. Buying books is definitely one of my hobbies.
I have stacks of magazines that I didn't choose to bring into the house (you give a charity some money each month, they send you a magazine, you can't opt out because advertisers) and will never read, but feel guilty throwing away, because "people worked hard on that" and "someday someone might be desperately looking for that issue" and "it's a piece of history" and "it's wasteful to throw it away without reading it". I know these are not good arguments. The second one isn't even valid - it's not as if I'm advertising a list of back issues anywhere - and neither's the third, given that actual archives are a thing that exist and my house is not one. And yet the piles remain.
I don't feel comfortable getting rid of documentary evidence of my life - old credit card statements, water bills etc. Fine with recycling the instructions for an appliance I no longer own though, so at least there's that.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:52 AM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am a reformed hoarder. In years past, I had tens of thousands of books, records, CDs, tapes, videotapes and assorted other media. I am also an artist and had years worth of large paintings and thousands of drawings. My first dehoarding event was a flood that destroyed everything stored in the garage. The second long dehoarding has been taking place slowly since I got my first Mac in 1992. Since then I collect only files and all my artwork is digital. I have slowly been giving away my books via the little free libraries and gave a few thousand Reggae cds to my replacement DJ when I stopped doing a radio show. I still have a collecting problem but all of it is stored on a few terabyte drives.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 6:25 AM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 6:25 AM on August 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't know if there's a known genetic (or maybe upbringing-related) link but I grew up in a hoarder home and have my own hoarder tendencies to some degree, though part of it is just not having the skills/mental ability to manage cleaning/clutter well, and part of it is semi-misguided frugality. I guess I lean towards both the "doomsdayer" and "older people" types of hoarder from the article - I buy way too much food/consumables on sale, which probably does save money overall (and paid off for once during the early pandemic) but I don't always use them up before they go bad or get thrown out eventually. For example I recently - finally - threw out some suspiciously discolored mustard with a best before date of 2018, which means I moved houses with it twice. I'm sure I still have other 2018 cans too. I have years-old collections of ketchup packets etc from fast food that I can't bear to throw out if they're still good. It's hard for me to get rid of food and any other belongings that I might have to buy a replacement for someday. Even broken things that I'll realistically never fix, I feel the need to keep just in case I ever do. I don't know if it's "true" hoarding though since I'd happily trade everything in for a newer version or replacement cost. On the other hand, I think my hoarder parent would say the same and that was definitely hoarding.
I'm so afraid that it'll escalate to problematic levels but so far I've been able to keep it contained and even fairly organized. It does seem like a lot of hoarding takes off when some kind of tragedy/death in the family occurs, which I've been fortunate to avoid so far, but can't forever. I'm very determined to avoid raising my daughter in the same kind of house I grew up in, though. It's a terrible way to live, especially for a small child with no control over anything.
posted by randomnity at 6:54 AM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm so afraid that it'll escalate to problematic levels but so far I've been able to keep it contained and even fairly organized. It does seem like a lot of hoarding takes off when some kind of tragedy/death in the family occurs, which I've been fortunate to avoid so far, but can't forever. I'm very determined to avoid raising my daughter in the same kind of house I grew up in, though. It's a terrible way to live, especially for a small child with no control over anything.
posted by randomnity at 6:54 AM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I honestly started the article thinking that it would be a job I might enjoy and then got to the blood, feces, cockroaches and rats, and decided, no, I'd pay someone $20k to do it for me. . .
This accurately describes why I Help Fund MetaFilter.
posted by The Bellman at 7:25 AM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
This accurately describes why I Help Fund MetaFilter.
posted by The Bellman at 7:25 AM on August 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
My wife accused me of hoarding because I have around twelve guitars.
I informed her they are tools and live in a home recording studio.
It’s just that nothing is hooked up at the moment…
posted by aiq at 8:03 AM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I informed her they are tools and live in a home recording studio.
It’s just that nothing is hooked up at the moment…
posted by aiq at 8:03 AM on August 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
oh god, aiq, I hear you.
Wanna deal on a TEAC A2340SX 4-ch recorder and a Tascam Model 3 mixer? Original owner (~40 yrs), less than 100 hours...
And two unplayed guitars.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:31 AM on August 15, 2022
Wanna deal on a TEAC A2340SX 4-ch recorder and a Tascam Model 3 mixer? Original owner (~40 yrs), less than 100 hours...
And two unplayed guitars.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:31 AM on August 15, 2022
I have, like ManyLeggedCreature, have a paper problem. I in theory know that I can find newspaper articles via ProQuest and whatnot (and just need to log them into Zotero or whatever) but it's a pain in the butt and the actual search function on most newspaper websites is awful (Honolulu Star-Advertiser and LA Times I'm looking at you). I did manage to recycle the majority of Honolulu Star-Advertiser newspaper clippings that moved to LA with me, I felt silly bringing them to a whole new state.
Really what I need is to become famous enough to be able to donate an "archive" to a special collection. Then the box of flyers I collected from my campus activist days will actually have a home and some misguided grad student will dig through them in search of a thesis topic. I truly loved the archive of decades-old student papers that the University of Hawaii had (dating back to 1920!) and that was just one hoarder sociology professor who unloaded boxes and boxes to the university library.
I am ecstatic that I live near SCRAP and actually have a destination for pill bottles, old (sun)glasses, etc etc.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Really what I need is to become famous enough to be able to donate an "archive" to a special collection. Then the box of flyers I collected from my campus activist days will actually have a home and some misguided grad student will dig through them in search of a thesis topic. I truly loved the archive of decades-old student papers that the University of Hawaii had (dating back to 1920!) and that was just one hoarder sociology professor who unloaded boxes and boxes to the university library.
I am ecstatic that I live near SCRAP and actually have a destination for pill bottles, old (sun)glasses, etc etc.
posted by spamandkimchi at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
These stories always remind of the Collyer Brothers.
FDNY and NYC housing court practitioners and judges still use the term Collyer to describe hoarding cases.
posted by Mavri at 6:14 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
FDNY and NYC housing court practitioners and judges still use the term Collyer to describe hoarding cases.
posted by Mavri at 6:14 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Spamandkimchi, I don't know what it's like round where you live, but the state library of Victoria collects political emphemera by donation - just post it to them. Your local legal deposit library may have a similar project? Just thinking that you don't necessarily have to get famous enough to start an archive collection, you may be able to add to an existing one!
posted by applesauce at 8:01 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by applesauce at 8:01 PM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
>Really what I need is to become famous enough to be able to donate an "archive" to a special collection. Then the box of flyers I collected from my campus activist days will actually have a home and some misguided grad student will dig through them in search of a thesis topic.
If you can't find something near you, you might also consider reaching out to the internet archive about it. They're pretty omnivorous in what they take in, and I bet they'd be willing to take something like that, to eventually be scanned and put online.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 4:59 PM on August 16, 2022
If you can't find something near you, you might also consider reaching out to the internet archive about it. They're pretty omnivorous in what they take in, and I bet they'd be willing to take something like that, to eventually be scanned and put online.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 4:59 PM on August 16, 2022
« Older How many apples? | Not your typical plate of beans [SLYT] Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
And because I also feel an irrational compulsion of sorts:
Metafilter: No one knows what they’re like at home, and in some cases alcohol plays a major role
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:03 PM on August 13, 2022 [31 favorites]