Not your typical plate of beans [SLYT]
August 13, 2022 10:27 PM Subscribe
Great to see that Cliff is still around and hasn't changed - used to live down the street from him and had a nodding acquaintance - now 20 years later we're all grey
posted by mbo at 11:17 PM on August 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mbo at 11:17 PM on August 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Grey, yeah, but he sure aged well. Nice work, Cliff!
posted by DreamerFi at 11:42 PM on August 13, 2022
posted by DreamerFi at 11:42 PM on August 13, 2022
For those not familiar: Cliff Stoll, The Klein Bottle seller, the first internet hacker no, it's cracker , no it's hacker detective, and all-around tech icon.
And Cliffy famously vanished off of the M(icro)S(oft)-NBC cable channel in 1996 near the end of its original internet tech-focused era for using his weekly video column to suggest the heresy that computers and the internet were not essential to classrooms. (Well, partially because of that. When NBC saw the ratings for coverage of Princess Di's death compared to the prior hash-mark-level ratings, every bit of the tech programming, Clff included, was dumped and the program partnership with ZiffDavis (and eventually channel partnership with Microsoft) unwound. ZD would go on to create ZDTV, later TechTV, later G4TechTV.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:42 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
And Cliffy famously vanished off of the M(icro)S(oft)-NBC cable channel in 1996 near the end of its original internet tech-focused era for using his weekly video column to suggest the heresy that computers and the internet were not essential to classrooms. (Well, partially because of that. When NBC saw the ratings for coverage of Princess Di's death compared to the prior hash-mark-level ratings, every bit of the tech programming, Clff included, was dumped and the program partnership with ZiffDavis (and eventually channel partnership with Microsoft) unwound. ZD would go on to create ZDTV, later TechTV, later G4TechTV.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:42 AM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, Cliff's bean video reminds us once again that Technically Correct Is the Best Kind of Correct,
posted by zaixfeep at 12:47 AM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 12:47 AM on August 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I like the cozy, cluttered cave this guy hangs out in.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:08 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:08 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Never get into a beanplating war with this guy.
He’s twisty as a Klein Bottle.. And he can probably hide your body.
Aaaaaand, I just realized someone above already noted that.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:38 AM on August 14, 2022
He’s twisty as a Klein Bottle.. And he can probably hide your body.
Aaaaaand, I just realized someone above already noted that.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:38 AM on August 14, 2022
To be completely accurate, this is a different plate of beans because it’s a cup of beans. Thank you.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:00 AM on August 14, 2022
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:00 AM on August 14, 2022
Oh I do so love Cliff, maybe tied with Tom Scott vs Irving Finkel: The Royal Game of Ur | PLAYTHROUGH | International Tabletop Day 2017 - YouTube as old wildly smart enthusiastic old codgers. I hope to be like them when I'm old and grey.
I usually think that the people interested in such things already subscribe to Numberphile and if you haven't maybe you should. There's even a Numberphile2 channel with podcasts and interviews with mathematicians that's also fun.
I'd like to meet him.
posted by zengargoyle at 4:16 AM on August 14, 2022
I usually think that the people interested in such things already subscribe to Numberphile and if you haven't maybe you should. There's even a Numberphile2 channel with podcasts and interviews with mathematicians that's also fun.
I'd like to meet him.
posted by zengargoyle at 4:16 AM on August 14, 2022
Dimensionality aside, 43 beans seems like a lot for a cup of coffee. But maybe I like my coffee too tame.
The best thing for me about the video is just imagining what's on all those tapes he mentioned. I taped a lot of stuff on a cheap reel to reel and later onto cassette tape in the 60's and early 70s. Stuff from TV, radio, shortwave, or with friends. Very random and probably unlistenable, not systematic, labeled or indexed as I imagine his tapes might be.
posted by DarkForest at 6:09 AM on August 14, 2022
The best thing for me about the video is just imagining what's on all those tapes he mentioned. I taped a lot of stuff on a cheap reel to reel and later onto cassette tape in the 60's and early 70s. Stuff from TV, radio, shortwave, or with friends. Very random and probably unlistenable, not systematic, labeled or indexed as I imagine his tapes might be.
posted by DarkForest at 6:09 AM on August 14, 2022
Ok, I didn't finish this before I had an objection--and didn't realize this was THAT Cliff Stoll, famous / infamous in early days internet for catching a hacker, and for suggesting nobody would want to shop online because there weren't salesmen...
BUT first, my unit objection: This is all resolved in 1 of 2 ways: you could say they simply meant 2 beans times 2, not 2 beans times 2 beans... OR, you could simply claim beans is a unitless unit. For example, one says Hertz is "cycles per second", right? But also wavelength times frequency is speed... Wavelength is distance, say meters. Frequency is in cycles per unit time, say Hz, cycles per second... Multiply them together and you get meters times cycles per second, not simply meters per second you'd use for speed. You could claim wavelength is distance per cycle, but look it up and it's quoted as distance (for example, 21 cm for the hydrogen hyperfine emission line).
Now my second objection. Contrary to the claim above that 43 beans is a lot for a cup of coffee, I think it was a ripoff, and the advertising jingle was turning a flaw into a feature.
Beethoven is famous for (well, among other things!) always counting out exactly the number of beans he used in his coffee. And he ALWAYS used 60 beans per cup. (That's 6 beans times 10 beans!) Da da da duuuum!
posted by Schmucko at 7:54 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
BUT first, my unit objection: This is all resolved in 1 of 2 ways: you could say they simply meant 2 beans times 2, not 2 beans times 2 beans... OR, you could simply claim beans is a unitless unit. For example, one says Hertz is "cycles per second", right? But also wavelength times frequency is speed... Wavelength is distance, say meters. Frequency is in cycles per unit time, say Hz, cycles per second... Multiply them together and you get meters times cycles per second, not simply meters per second you'd use for speed. You could claim wavelength is distance per cycle, but look it up and it's quoted as distance (for example, 21 cm for the hydrogen hyperfine emission line).
Now my second objection. Contrary to the claim above that 43 beans is a lot for a cup of coffee, I think it was a ripoff, and the advertising jingle was turning a flaw into a feature.
Beethoven is famous for (well, among other things!) always counting out exactly the number of beans he used in his coffee. And he ALWAYS used 60 beans per cup. (That's 6 beans times 10 beans!) Da da da duuuum!
posted by Schmucko at 7:54 AM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm confused by his point. Isn't multiplying beans a simple numeric action, with no dimensionality? If I multiply 2 dollars by 2 dollars, I just have 4 dollars in my quite flat wallet. I don't have 4 square dollars, unless perhaps I'm using them as wallpaper.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:02 AM on August 14, 2022
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:02 AM on August 14, 2022
The answer is clearly ”some beans.”
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:33 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:33 AM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ahhhhhhhhh! Watching this, already so in love with his joy and enthusiasm, and then - HE’S THE KLEIN-BOTTLE MAN! Twenty years ago in college, I heard about his Klein-bottle scarves and thought, what a delight! Last year the topic came up with my partner, a mathematician, and lo and behold his same website is up, and I spent literal hours reading and chuckling and smiling until my face hurt. What a fantastic start to my day. Thank you!
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2022
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2022
I'm confused by his point. Isn't multiplying beans a simple numeric action, with no dimensionality? If I multiply 2 dollars by 2 dollars, I just have 4 dollars in my quite flat wallet.
No, 4 dollars is what you get from multiplying 2 dollars by 2. Multiply 2 dollars by 2 dollars and you get 4 square dollars. If you want to start with 2 dollars and 2 dollars and end up with 4 dollars, you need to add your 2 dollars and your other 2 dollars, not multiply them.
As for the Nescafé equation: whether you interpret it as a quadratic and get roots of 0 and 1 or as a cubic and get roots of -1, 0 and 1, the only way 2B × 2B is going to have the same dimensionality as 4B is when B = 0, because 0 has no dimensions to begin with.
posted by flabdablet at 1:46 PM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
No, 4 dollars is what you get from multiplying 2 dollars by 2. Multiply 2 dollars by 2 dollars and you get 4 square dollars. If you want to start with 2 dollars and 2 dollars and end up with 4 dollars, you need to add your 2 dollars and your other 2 dollars, not multiply them.
As for the Nescafé equation: whether you interpret it as a quadratic and get roots of 0 and 1 or as a cubic and get roots of -1, 0 and 1, the only way 2B × 2B is going to have the same dimensionality as 4B is when B = 0, because 0 has no dimensions to begin with.
posted by flabdablet at 1:46 PM on August 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The beans they put in that shit are worthless, is what I'm saying.
posted by flabdablet at 1:57 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 1:57 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I agree, 43 beans for a single cup seemed way too few for my taste. and so in the spirit of pedantry of the video, I counted some out: 43 beans of the coffee I have on hand is barely 1 gram. I typically use 20 grams to brew via Hario V60 to get an 8 oz cup. so that Nescafe sounds like a weak cup to me, but maybe via other brew methods it's not?
I enjoyed the video although I admit part of me did think of this meme. and now I want a cup of coffee
posted by okonomichiyaki at 2:25 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed the video although I admit part of me did think of this meme. and now I want a cup of coffee
posted by okonomichiyaki at 2:25 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm a physicist and kind of a zealot about dimensional analysis, and I'm having a hard time coming up with sympathy for beans-squared.
What's happening in the jingle is basically the way that we teach children to use multiplication. If I gave three or four dozen beans to a third- or fourth-grader, and coached them to arrange them in a multiplication-friendly way rather than counting them directly, a reasonable approach would be to arrange them in rows of ten, and then count how many rows there are. As a unit zealot, I would probably say "ten beans per row, times four rows, equals forty beans." But it would be completely reasonable to look at your grid of coffee beans and state correctly that (1) it is ten beans wide, (2) it is four beans tall, and (3) it contains forty beans.
We kind of do this implicitly when we're teaching multiplication. If you imagine doing the same multiplication exercise using just the squares on graph paper, you would probably naturally say "the grid is ten squares long and four squares tall" —— even though "a square" is a unit of area, not a unit of length.
What we have have in this ancient and terrifically catchy jingle is a correct arithmetic problem, and an opportunity to talk about the difference between math-learner pedagogy and a specific math-sophisticate technicality. In an era where it's impossible to price toilet paper without a calculator, because all of the packages say "SIX EQUALS TWELVE! TWELVE EQUALS THIRTY-SIX!" and other lies, it's hard to get upset about that.
I'd classify the pedantry in this video as a kind of prescriptive linguistics. Yes, your grammar book is all logically consistent, and very pretty. But language is a natural, biological phenomenon, and if I can get an idea from my head into your head, then you and I have languaged successfully. Saying "this song lyric about beans-squared is dimensionally inconsistent" feels like trying to convince someone that "I can't get no satisfaction" is about a perpetually-satisfied person, because a double negative makes a positive.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:49 PM on August 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
What's happening in the jingle is basically the way that we teach children to use multiplication. If I gave three or four dozen beans to a third- or fourth-grader, and coached them to arrange them in a multiplication-friendly way rather than counting them directly, a reasonable approach would be to arrange them in rows of ten, and then count how many rows there are. As a unit zealot, I would probably say "ten beans per row, times four rows, equals forty beans." But it would be completely reasonable to look at your grid of coffee beans and state correctly that (1) it is ten beans wide, (2) it is four beans tall, and (3) it contains forty beans.
We kind of do this implicitly when we're teaching multiplication. If you imagine doing the same multiplication exercise using just the squares on graph paper, you would probably naturally say "the grid is ten squares long and four squares tall" —— even though "a square" is a unit of area, not a unit of length.
What we have have in this ancient and terrifically catchy jingle is a correct arithmetic problem, and an opportunity to talk about the difference between math-learner pedagogy and a specific math-sophisticate technicality. In an era where it's impossible to price toilet paper without a calculator, because all of the packages say "SIX EQUALS TWELVE! TWELVE EQUALS THIRTY-SIX!" and other lies, it's hard to get upset about that.
I'd classify the pedantry in this video as a kind of prescriptive linguistics. Yes, your grammar book is all logically consistent, and very pretty. But language is a natural, biological phenomenon, and if I can get an idea from my head into your head, then you and I have languaged successfully. Saying "this song lyric about beans-squared is dimensionally inconsistent" feels like trying to convince someone that "I can't get no satisfaction" is about a perpetually-satisfied person, because a double negative makes a positive.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:49 PM on August 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
No, 4 dollars is what you get from multiplying 2 dollars by 2. Multiply 2 dollars by 2 dollars and you get 4 square dollars.
That's semantics, not math. I neither care about the surface area of my money nor am I utilizing them in a 2D or 3D sense, other than that they're palpable and physically transferrable counters (with worth separate from their dimensions).
the only way 2B × 2B is going to have the same dimensionality as 4B is when B = 0, because 0 has no dimensions to begin with.
Which was my point. Using your example, B in this case is Beans, since we're not employing their dimensions when making coffee, only their collective extracted flavor.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:04 PM on August 14, 2022
That's semantics, not math. I neither care about the surface area of my money nor am I utilizing them in a 2D or 3D sense, other than that they're palpable and physically transferrable counters (with worth separate from their dimensions).
the only way 2B × 2B is going to have the same dimensionality as 4B is when B = 0, because 0 has no dimensions to begin with.
Which was my point. Using your example, B in this case is Beans, since we're not employing their dimensions when making coffee, only their collective extracted flavor.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:04 PM on August 14, 2022
If two dollars times two dollars is four dollars, what is two hundred cents times two hundred cents?
I don't think "Bloomberg couldn't have given everyone in the USA $1M dollars" is pedantry.
posted by you at 3:14 PM on August 14, 2022
I don't think "Bloomberg couldn't have given everyone in the USA $1M dollars" is pedantry.
posted by you at 3:14 PM on August 14, 2022
The point made by “you” is that two dollars per row times two rows is not the same thing as two hundred cents per row times two hundred rows, even though two hundred cents is the same thing as two dollars.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:41 PM on August 14, 2022
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 3:41 PM on August 14, 2022
I really hope, if I survive to that age, I will have as much fun over something that silly, frantically using whatever materials are at hand .
If everyone has a good laugh, point made.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:03 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
If everyone has a good laugh, point made.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 5:03 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Square Beans, Square Beans, square square BEANS!
(I'd like it if they like us, but I don't think they like us)
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:42 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
(I'd like it if they like us, but I don't think they like us)
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:42 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
If you use square beans, does it make a cube of coffee?
(gosh, that'd be painful to swallow...)
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
(gosh, that'd be painful to swallow...)
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:09 PM on August 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Square Beans, Square Beans, square square BEANS!
(I'd like it if they like us, but I don't think they like us)
posted by Harvey Kilobit
(I see that bet and raise you with...)
I know what beans like
I know what peas want
I know what beans like
I know what's on their stalks
I know what beans like, beans like, beans like me.
Sucker! Legume! 😉
posted by zaixfeep at 9:14 PM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
(I'd like it if they like us, but I don't think they like us)
posted by Harvey Kilobit
(I see that bet and raise you with...)
I know what beans like
I know what peas want
I know what beans like
I know what's on their stalks
I know what beans like, beans like, beans like me.
posted by zaixfeep at 9:14 PM on August 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
The answer is clearly ”some beans.” yt
posted by The Underpants Monster
Glad to see the Renaissance didn't pass you by, UM 😉
posted by zaixfeep at 9:18 PM on August 14, 2022
posted by The Underpants Monster
Glad to see the Renaissance didn't pass you by, UM 😉
posted by zaixfeep at 9:18 PM on August 14, 2022
Metafilter: Now THAT's overthinking a plate of beans!
Also, whoever added those little animations and noises to the whole thing made this VERY entertaining.
posted by mmoncur at 1:28 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also, whoever added those little animations and noises to the whole thing made this VERY entertaining.
posted by mmoncur at 1:28 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
40,000 cents / 400 bucks? I don't get your point?
The point is that your refusal to process units carefully has apparently now generated a $396 difference between two dollars times two dollars and two hundred cents times two hundred cents, which is weird given that two dollars is two hundred cents.
posted by flabdablet at 3:34 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The point is that your refusal to process units carefully has apparently now generated a $396 difference between two dollars times two dollars and two hundred cents times two hundred cents, which is weird given that two dollars is two hundred cents.
posted by flabdablet at 3:34 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm a physicist and kind of a zealot about dimensional analysis, and I'm having a hard time coming up with sympathy for beans-squared. . . I'd classify the pedantry in this video as a kind of prescriptive linguistics.
Overthinking the overthinking - We found our bean plater2!
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:17 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Overthinking the overthinking - We found our bean plater2!
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:17 AM on August 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I guess dining really IS pedantry!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:48 AM on August 15, 2022
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:48 AM on August 15, 2022
your refusal to process units carefully
You're still arguing semantics, not math, but I no longer care.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:48 AM on August 15, 2022
You're still arguing semantics, not math, but I no longer care.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:48 AM on August 15, 2022
Send me the $396 and we'll call it even.
posted by flabdablet at 11:50 AM on August 15, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 11:50 AM on August 15, 2022
Thanks! It's as good as a holiday.
posted by flabdablet at 3:31 AM on August 16, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 3:31 AM on August 16, 2022
Incidentally, "Squared Holiday" is the name of my new Cubist painting.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:52 AM on August 16, 2022
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:52 AM on August 16, 2022
Is it a spherical cube of uniform density?
posted by flabdablet at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2022
No no, "Spherical Cube" is my other painting.
I avoid dense uniforms, they're too hot for me.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:03 PM on August 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I avoid dense uniforms, they're too hot for me.
posted by Greg_Ace at 2:03 PM on August 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I taped the episode of Nova about his computer security adventure and I still have the VHS tape.
posted by neuron at 1:43 PM on August 19, 2022
posted by neuron at 1:43 PM on August 19, 2022
I clicked on the Nova link and remembered that I had read The Cuckoo's Egg many many years ago. Fun to watch him.
Then I watched other videos of him telling the story, and they're a little bit different each time. But always entertaining.
I liked the Nova one best because of the shots of the computer rooms- the kind of rooms I hung out in during my mainframe years. Lloyd even had tab cards in his pocket. Now that's realism.
posted by MtDewd at 3:04 PM on August 19, 2022
Then I watched other videos of him telling the story, and they're a little bit different each time. But always entertaining.
I liked the Nova one best because of the shots of the computer rooms- the kind of rooms I hung out in during my mainframe years. Lloyd even had tab cards in his pocket. Now that's realism.
posted by MtDewd at 3:04 PM on August 19, 2022
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