What to Actually Do About an Unequal Partnership
August 18, 2022 10:19 PM Subscribe
"I find the entire situation pretty infuriating. For those who carry the bulk of the unpaid labor load, it’s a root cause of burnout. ... I’ve seen this sort of inequality fester and create relationship-breaking resentment; I’ve seen people complain and then gradually, over the years, reconcile themselves to it. And no matter how much theory you read, no matter how much you believe in cultivating a different way of dividing labor than your parents or grandparents did, so many relationships ... fall into these bullshit rhythms and norms that, once established, are incredibly difficult to change."
because I work fulltime, I would guess that he also has at least twice as much free time as I do, certainly that's how it appears
I find this interesting. Seems to speak to the general devaluing of housework. I've heard men complain about how their stay-at-home wives have all this "free time," which always gets a big eyeroll.
And I fall in the same trap as a woman who deeply dislikes housework. (I am both the sole breadwinner and the sole homemaker in my household.) It doesn't feel like it should be "work," even though intellectually I know it is.
posted by basalganglia at 2:09 AM on August 19, 2022 [7 favorites]
I find this interesting. Seems to speak to the general devaluing of housework. I've heard men complain about how their stay-at-home wives have all this "free time," which always gets a big eyeroll.
And I fall in the same trap as a woman who deeply dislikes housework. (I am both the sole breadwinner and the sole homemaker in my household.) It doesn't feel like it should be "work," even though intellectually I know it is.
posted by basalganglia at 2:09 AM on August 19, 2022 [7 favorites]
Man I really appreciated this article. Thanks so much for posting, I'm not sure I would have run into it otherwise. One thing I've noticed that so many of my male friends seem to treat their wives/partners as the social secretary as well. This is mentioned in the article but it bugs me when I have to text their partner just to set up an outing for us, or when they say hold on I have to check. Like know your own calendar! Anyways, this was great and I'm really thinking about the interview, I thought it was great.
posted by Carillon at 2:12 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 2:12 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
Seems to speak to the general devaluing of housework. I've heard men complain about how their stay-at-home wives have all this "free time," which always gets a big eyeroll.
this article is not really about the labor division between two childless adults, so I'll only say this: I see the point, but for two people with no kids, yes it is actually true. I have been on both sides of this and yes taking care of only two adults gives more free time than working a full time job. Can you really put in 8ish hours of household care every day for 5 days for 2 people (or say 5 hours a day every day)? Boredom is really a factor there, because there's just not much to do unless you've got like an estate or working land. Of course, once you add kids, then it does become much more of a full-time job, and there's no more "free time".
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:51 AM on August 19, 2022 [29 favorites]
this article is not really about the labor division between two childless adults, so I'll only say this: I see the point, but for two people with no kids, yes it is actually true. I have been on both sides of this and yes taking care of only two adults gives more free time than working a full time job. Can you really put in 8ish hours of household care every day for 5 days for 2 people (or say 5 hours a day every day)? Boredom is really a factor there, because there's just not much to do unless you've got like an estate or working land. Of course, once you add kids, then it does become much more of a full-time job, and there's no more "free time".
posted by LizBoBiz at 2:51 AM on August 19, 2022 [29 favorites]
Like know your own calendar!
We still have to check. Sure, there might be nothing in the diary for us or for the family, but it might be that she doesn't feel that we've seen each other enough recently, or there might be a potential playdate that hasn't been organised, or there might be a night out with the other school mums that's maybe happening...
posted by one more day at 3:54 AM on August 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
We still have to check. Sure, there might be nothing in the diary for us or for the family, but it might be that she doesn't feel that we've seen each other enough recently, or there might be a potential playdate that hasn't been organised, or there might be a night out with the other school mums that's maybe happening...
posted by one more day at 3:54 AM on August 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah I thought that was a basic part of a partnership where your lives are intertwined so much. Just common courtesy (and maybe your spouse/partner actually has funner plans!). And it should go both ways!
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:30 AM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:30 AM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Female-coded tasks are primarily routine and indoor: laundry, cooking, cleaning, caregiving. There is always something to do, day in and day out. Routine tasks are relentless. You might be able to order pizza and let dishes pile up for one day. But much more than that, and there is going to be a mutiny in your home. Indoor tasks also require a high level of cognitive labor. While you’re folding laundry, you’re also thinking about your shopping list. While you’re bathing kids, you’re working out how you’ll cover childcare during school break.
Male-coded tasks tend to be intermittent and outdoor: fix-it projects, accounting, yard and lawn, car maintenance. These tasks do not require daily attention. And while your neighbor might roll their eyes if the lawn gets long, there is no harm in skipping a week here or there. (Interesting side note – one would think men in urban areas would do more indoor tasks, since their outdoor space is limited. Not so. Broadly speaking, urban men just have more free time than suburban and rural men.)
Her discussion of routine tasks makes me think of Hannah Ahrendt.
If I remember it all correctly (no guarantees), she wrote that there were several different ways of interacting with the world. These were:
Labouring (timeless work without beginning or end, essentially metabolic activities )
Manufacture/making (leaving a mark on the world through a durable but not immortal product)
Action (by which she means either political or other permanent change to the public sphere - this one I understood the least).
Action is better than Making is better than Labouring.
I think people who have power subconsciously try to do two things:
1) Take for themselves tasks which are higher up the hierarchy. Cleaning is the lowest task possible. It has neither beginning nor end, the best possible result in invisibility, there is no possibility for permanence or creative direction.
2) They promote what they do within this hierarchy. If you're powerless, the cooking you do is routine, following traditional methods the way your peers and ancestors did. When powerful people do that activity, they use their social power to change the context. Now they're making something that is distinctively theirs, the mark they leave is more permanent. If they're really powerful, they create a whole culinary movement which is Action. Want to make organising higher status (I think cleaning is hopeless but maybe I'm wrong)? Organise things into a system. If you want to make it really high status you need to associate it with a movement. From lowest to highest - clearing up dropped socks, organising socks by colour, writing a book about how to fold socks respectfully.
Male tasks then, (not including lawn mowing or clearing gutters) are often those with a durable outcome. Rather than cleaning (metabolic) they build a deck. Stereotypically, when men do cook, it is almost always in a high status coded way. Men rarely cook reluctantly because the children have to eat, they're either working their way through all of the sauces in Julia Child (literally I am doing this) or not cooking.
What she says about cognitive labour, I would put in terms of the difference between owning a task and dipping into it. If its the former, then you can never entirely let it go out of your mind because you remain accountable for its performance as an ongoing task. Even if you have asked your partner to do the laundry, if you "own" laundry then you will be held accountable for its non-performance and at best be able to berate partner for not carrying out the task without cognitive de-loading.
I know MeFi is not probably the place where management consulting talk is most welcome, BUT: I think it's actually really helpful to deploy the tools of the organisational designer to the home sphere like this. Like, let's treat it the way our society treats paid labour and get serious, is my point of view.
One thing we use is called a RACI matrix which defines who is Accountable, Responsible, Consulted, and Informed for particular activities. Accountable is the person who holds the mental load of ensuring correct completion, Responsible is often the person doing a task. (We can ignore the other two categories). What I think happens in domestic labour is that women end up with all of the As and even if they are able to delegate the Cs to male partners, there is a mental overhead of carrying all of those open loops which require monitoring. This is especially true because many men are bad delegatees in a domestic context. In a professional context, good team members do not leave their bosses with open loops - they either complete the task or report back that it wasn't completed. Really good employees who are ready for promotion will "take" the A from their manager and own the process completely.
So what is happening is:
1) For whatever reason, women are getting stuck with the mental management labour
2) Male partners make it worse by not even being good delegatees, forcing their partners to hold even more open loops in their heads
3) At the execution level, (the "R") men are not doing enough of the work - BUT even if they were this wouldn't solve the problem of mental load
She mentions an employer / employee mental model which I would agree isn't going to work well (given the inability of the employer to actually do anything about bad "employee" performance) but in my workplace we also use the Accountable / Responsible split between peers and even have junior people with "A" roles over senior people (think technical experts providing project-specific inputs) as "R" roles.
This is what we do in my household. My wife and I each have areas where we are in charge (even if we may, on occasion delegate specific tasks within those areas). They're even codified on a spreadsheet with time estimates. Is that too much organisation to bring to a household? Well, I think that without it we would inevitably end up in an unequal equilibrium wondering how this happened.
We even have the ultimate in goofball, wholesome nonsense which is a shared email address for "kid stuff". I mean, it sounds ridiculous but if we just kept each other on CC I know exactly what would happen - over time I would get dropped and she would end up with all the mental load of what needs to be brought to school and when or when children's parties are.
My view is that in the society in which we live, not taking pragmatic steps to manage workload distribution like this is essentially planning to fall into a equilibrium where the female partner does more work. If you know that and don't act, I don't think you can say, "it's not my fault" when your wife or girlfriend does more domestic work "despite your best efforts".
This is mentioned in the article but it bugs me when I have to text their partner just to set up an outing for us, or when they say hold on I have to check. Like know your own calendar!
It's 2022, the technology for calendar sharing is here, people! My wife and I have a series of shared calendars and an agreed set of codes for populating them. So "Drinks with work team????" with four question marks means, "this probably won't actually happen and / or my attendance is by no means mandatory" whereas with one question mark it means "probably happening and I am planning to be here but not firmed up yet". This keeps all of our scheduling in-band so that the state of the shared schedule can immediately be viewed.
There's a separate shared calendar for kid stuff.
A lot of my thinking on this comes from Dave Allen's "Getting Things Done" which is all about reducing open mental loops for an individual and putting those loops into a system instead. I've just adapted it a little for two people but I think the logic of reducing mental stress through loop removal holds up very well.
posted by atrazine at 6:36 AM on August 19, 2022 [81 favorites]
Male-coded tasks tend to be intermittent and outdoor: fix-it projects, accounting, yard and lawn, car maintenance. These tasks do not require daily attention. And while your neighbor might roll their eyes if the lawn gets long, there is no harm in skipping a week here or there. (Interesting side note – one would think men in urban areas would do more indoor tasks, since their outdoor space is limited. Not so. Broadly speaking, urban men just have more free time than suburban and rural men.)
Her discussion of routine tasks makes me think of Hannah Ahrendt.
If I remember it all correctly (no guarantees), she wrote that there were several different ways of interacting with the world. These were:
Labouring (timeless work without beginning or end, essentially metabolic activities )
Manufacture/making (leaving a mark on the world through a durable but not immortal product)
Action (by which she means either political or other permanent change to the public sphere - this one I understood the least).
Action is better than Making is better than Labouring.
I think people who have power subconsciously try to do two things:
1) Take for themselves tasks which are higher up the hierarchy. Cleaning is the lowest task possible. It has neither beginning nor end, the best possible result in invisibility, there is no possibility for permanence or creative direction.
2) They promote what they do within this hierarchy. If you're powerless, the cooking you do is routine, following traditional methods the way your peers and ancestors did. When powerful people do that activity, they use their social power to change the context. Now they're making something that is distinctively theirs, the mark they leave is more permanent. If they're really powerful, they create a whole culinary movement which is Action. Want to make organising higher status (I think cleaning is hopeless but maybe I'm wrong)? Organise things into a system. If you want to make it really high status you need to associate it with a movement. From lowest to highest - clearing up dropped socks, organising socks by colour, writing a book about how to fold socks respectfully.
Male tasks then, (not including lawn mowing or clearing gutters) are often those with a durable outcome. Rather than cleaning (metabolic) they build a deck. Stereotypically, when men do cook, it is almost always in a high status coded way. Men rarely cook reluctantly because the children have to eat, they're either working their way through all of the sauces in Julia Child (literally I am doing this) or not cooking.
What she says about cognitive labour, I would put in terms of the difference between owning a task and dipping into it. If its the former, then you can never entirely let it go out of your mind because you remain accountable for its performance as an ongoing task. Even if you have asked your partner to do the laundry, if you "own" laundry then you will be held accountable for its non-performance and at best be able to berate partner for not carrying out the task without cognitive de-loading.
I know MeFi is not probably the place where management consulting talk is most welcome, BUT: I think it's actually really helpful to deploy the tools of the organisational designer to the home sphere like this. Like, let's treat it the way our society treats paid labour and get serious, is my point of view.
One thing we use is called a RACI matrix which defines who is Accountable, Responsible, Consulted, and Informed for particular activities. Accountable is the person who holds the mental load of ensuring correct completion, Responsible is often the person doing a task. (We can ignore the other two categories). What I think happens in domestic labour is that women end up with all of the As and even if they are able to delegate the Cs to male partners, there is a mental overhead of carrying all of those open loops which require monitoring. This is especially true because many men are bad delegatees in a domestic context. In a professional context, good team members do not leave their bosses with open loops - they either complete the task or report back that it wasn't completed. Really good employees who are ready for promotion will "take" the A from their manager and own the process completely.
So what is happening is:
1) For whatever reason, women are getting stuck with the mental management labour
2) Male partners make it worse by not even being good delegatees, forcing their partners to hold even more open loops in their heads
3) At the execution level, (the "R") men are not doing enough of the work - BUT even if they were this wouldn't solve the problem of mental load
She mentions an employer / employee mental model which I would agree isn't going to work well (given the inability of the employer to actually do anything about bad "employee" performance) but in my workplace we also use the Accountable / Responsible split between peers and even have junior people with "A" roles over senior people (think technical experts providing project-specific inputs) as "R" roles.
This is what we do in my household. My wife and I each have areas where we are in charge (even if we may, on occasion delegate specific tasks within those areas). They're even codified on a spreadsheet with time estimates. Is that too much organisation to bring to a household? Well, I think that without it we would inevitably end up in an unequal equilibrium wondering how this happened.
We even have the ultimate in goofball, wholesome nonsense which is a shared email address for "kid stuff". I mean, it sounds ridiculous but if we just kept each other on CC I know exactly what would happen - over time I would get dropped and she would end up with all the mental load of what needs to be brought to school and when or when children's parties are.
My view is that in the society in which we live, not taking pragmatic steps to manage workload distribution like this is essentially planning to fall into a equilibrium where the female partner does more work. If you know that and don't act, I don't think you can say, "it's not my fault" when your wife or girlfriend does more domestic work "despite your best efforts".
This is mentioned in the article but it bugs me when I have to text their partner just to set up an outing for us, or when they say hold on I have to check. Like know your own calendar!
It's 2022, the technology for calendar sharing is here, people! My wife and I have a series of shared calendars and an agreed set of codes for populating them. So "Drinks with work team????" with four question marks means, "this probably won't actually happen and / or my attendance is by no means mandatory" whereas with one question mark it means "probably happening and I am planning to be here but not firmed up yet". This keeps all of our scheduling in-band so that the state of the shared schedule can immediately be viewed.
There's a separate shared calendar for kid stuff.
A lot of my thinking on this comes from Dave Allen's "Getting Things Done" which is all about reducing open mental loops for an individual and putting those loops into a system instead. I've just adapted it a little for two people but I think the logic of reducing mental stress through loop removal holds up very well.
posted by atrazine at 6:36 AM on August 19, 2022 [81 favorites]
I'm glad it looks beyond heterosexual relationships - I'm a woman married to a woman, and we have a very unequal relationship in many ways, and I often read things like this and say "YEAH ... except, uh, not at all like that but kind of like that?" I've only read part of the article so far but am looking forward to reading the rest of it later and probably sharing it with my wife.
posted by rmd1023 at 6:40 AM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 6:40 AM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Male-coded tasks tend to be intermittent and outdoor: fix-it projects, accounting, yard and lawn, car maintenance. These tasks do not require daily attention.
Not that it makes me disagree with the main thrust of the article, but this is sort of bullshit? I live alone so I do all the household tasks, and these kind of things require plenty of daily attention.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 6:53 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not that it makes me disagree with the main thrust of the article, but this is sort of bullshit? I live alone so I do all the household tasks, and these kind of things require plenty of daily attention.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 6:53 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
I do most of these for a household right now and I can absolutely postpone the maintenance tasks longer than the metabolic ones. There’s enough of them that keeping up requires doing something every day, but I can catch up on caulking (expensively) after a year. Feeding people, no.
posted by clew at 7:04 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by clew at 7:04 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
How do people handle this where one person is a stay-at-home mom?
I'm the male in an opposite-sex couple with a school going kid. My wife will soon be quitting her job. For context, our kid is autistic and does poorly with afterschool care and summer care. It also takes time and effort to connect him with the professional help he needs and schlep him to appointments. (I should mention that her quitting employment rather than me is driven by her personal preference as well as logistics and money; I do think it is due to sexism in some part, but more the institutionalized sexism and capitalism of the world we live in than individual sexist choices by us such as prioritizing my career.)
So: there will be a lot of childcare labor during the day, but not during school hours. We plan to continue splitting evening and weekend childcare and dinner 50/50 as we have been doing. But I'm not sure how to consider other domestic household labor (cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, home repairs, planning etc). I imagine this is a question others face too, and would appreciate any advice from those who have navigated this.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:07 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm the male in an opposite-sex couple with a school going kid. My wife will soon be quitting her job. For context, our kid is autistic and does poorly with afterschool care and summer care. It also takes time and effort to connect him with the professional help he needs and schlep him to appointments. (I should mention that her quitting employment rather than me is driven by her personal preference as well as logistics and money; I do think it is due to sexism in some part, but more the institutionalized sexism and capitalism of the world we live in than individual sexist choices by us such as prioritizing my career.)
So: there will be a lot of childcare labor during the day, but not during school hours. We plan to continue splitting evening and weekend childcare and dinner 50/50 as we have been doing. But I'm not sure how to consider other domestic household labor (cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, home repairs, planning etc). I imagine this is a question others face too, and would appreciate any advice from those who have navigated this.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:07 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Male-coded tasks tend to be intermittent and outdoor: fix-it projects, accounting, yard and lawn, car maintenance.
Let's get real: These male-coded tasks no longer demand the hours (and payments in blood, sweat and tears) than they did of our forefathers.
It's not intermittent, it's more like intermiiiiiiiiitent.
Accounting software and online banking have made mincemeat out of routine bookkeeping; yard and lawn maintenance has been radically simplified by riding mowers and robots; car maintenance is largely a thing of the past thanks to improvements in reliability and the leasing of new vehicles.
What's more, home fix-it projects benefit from inexpensive cordless/brushless tool lines from companies like DeWalt and Milwaukee. It's possible for homeowners to pimp out their garages with a complete set of tools for under $5000--and these tools are more reliable than a generation ago, while delivering more umph in terms of horsepower and torque.
(Source: I'm a male-identified dude who geeks out over fixit crap).
posted by Gordion Knott at 7:39 AM on August 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
Let's get real: These male-coded tasks no longer demand the hours (and payments in blood, sweat and tears) than they did of our forefathers.
It's not intermittent, it's more like intermiiiiiiiiitent.
Accounting software and online banking have made mincemeat out of routine bookkeeping; yard and lawn maintenance has been radically simplified by riding mowers and robots; car maintenance is largely a thing of the past thanks to improvements in reliability and the leasing of new vehicles.
What's more, home fix-it projects benefit from inexpensive cordless/brushless tool lines from companies like DeWalt and Milwaukee. It's possible for homeowners to pimp out their garages with a complete set of tools for under $5000--and these tools are more reliable than a generation ago, while delivering more umph in terms of horsepower and torque.
(Source: I'm a male-identified dude who geeks out over fixit crap).
posted by Gordion Knott at 7:39 AM on August 19, 2022 [10 favorites]
I found the article interesting, thank you for posting it.
I didn't identify with everything there -- I am guessing that if we had kids, this would all be much more relatable, despite the author's efforts to make it inclusive rather than just about parenting.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:02 AM on August 19, 2022
I didn't identify with everything there -- I am guessing that if we had kids, this would all be much more relatable, despite the author's efforts to make it inclusive rather than just about parenting.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:02 AM on August 19, 2022
I tried to do it by doing less. As a result I have more free time than the average woman but our “standard of living” at home is lower in a way that would reflect poorly on me disproportionately if we were sociable. This appears to be a common result as opposed to the other partner rising to the occasion.
posted by Selena777 at 8:08 AM on August 19, 2022 [48 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 8:08 AM on August 19, 2022 [48 favorites]
radically simplified by riding mowers and robots;
Riding mowers and robots? No. Not sure what to say about riding mowers, but lawn care and indoor vacuuming robots are nowhere near good enough to replace the manual tools.
I kind of find it ironic that she would say "And while your neighbor might roll their eyes if the lawn gets long, there is no harm in skipping a week here or there." when NextDoor, HOAs, and ultimately your city will come down hard if you don't mow your grass. Compare that to how they act if you don't vacuum your floor. And aren't the same people who judge the interior of your home for being less than perfect also going to judge the exterior, including lawn care? Why make the assumption judginess starts at the door?
And I find that comment doubly ironic, because she could have easily made the point that guys are far more likely to outsource lawn care even when they are physically/financially able, which if you add up the monthly cost, it would be the same as a monthly indoor maid! How many households pay lawn care services? About 40%. How many pay for a maid? 10% regularly, + 3% very occasionally. They pay for regular lawn care which allows them to outsource even the noticing aspect of grass length.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:44 AM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Riding mowers and robots? No. Not sure what to say about riding mowers, but lawn care and indoor vacuuming robots are nowhere near good enough to replace the manual tools.
I kind of find it ironic that she would say "And while your neighbor might roll their eyes if the lawn gets long, there is no harm in skipping a week here or there." when NextDoor, HOAs, and ultimately your city will come down hard if you don't mow your grass. Compare that to how they act if you don't vacuum your floor. And aren't the same people who judge the interior of your home for being less than perfect also going to judge the exterior, including lawn care? Why make the assumption judginess starts at the door?
And I find that comment doubly ironic, because she could have easily made the point that guys are far more likely to outsource lawn care even when they are physically/financially able, which if you add up the monthly cost, it would be the same as a monthly indoor maid! How many households pay lawn care services? About 40%. How many pay for a maid? 10% regularly, + 3% very occasionally. They pay for regular lawn care which allows them to outsource even the noticing aspect of grass length.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:44 AM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
because she could have easily made the point that guys are far more likely to outsource lawn care even when they are physically/financially able, which if you add up the monthly cost, it would be the same as a monthly indoor maid!
Oh wow, I didn't even notice that glaring omission in the article. There really isn't any discussion there of outsourcing, whether for outdoor work or indoor, despite that frequently being a component of rebalancing responsibilities for the people who can afford it.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
Oh wow, I didn't even notice that glaring omission in the article. There really isn't any discussion there of outsourcing, whether for outdoor work or indoor, despite that frequently being a component of rebalancing responsibilities for the people who can afford it.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
No philosophical perspective seems to scale to understanding the world, and although they may produce valid perspective based criticisms, they do not appear to be able to produce non-perspective based solutions.
Articles like this just feel so much like trying to determine if the color you are seeing is blue, by comparing it only to other shades of blue and preventing you from comparing it to things that are not blue, which is how we figured out what blue was in the first place.
I can't wait for someone to figure out something better so we can all stop wasting our time on things not capable of even identifying if a problem is actually solvable or not using the tool that said something was a problem in the first place.
posted by 517 at 9:16 AM on August 19, 2022
Articles like this just feel so much like trying to determine if the color you are seeing is blue, by comparing it only to other shades of blue and preventing you from comparing it to things that are not blue, which is how we figured out what blue was in the first place.
I can't wait for someone to figure out something better so we can all stop wasting our time on things not capable of even identifying if a problem is actually solvable or not using the tool that said something was a problem in the first place.
posted by 517 at 9:16 AM on August 19, 2022
ironic that she would say "And while your neighbor might roll their eyes if the lawn gets long, there is no harm in skipping a week here or there." when NextDoor, HOAs, and ultimately your city will come down hard if you don't mow your grass.
This does definitely seem like there'd be a lot of variability by location. A lot of neighbors had some overgrown yards where I grew up, and where I live now is a neighborhood where people promote no-mow May (and many have kept mowing to a minimum for the rest of the summer). Which was a bit embarrassing when we did outsource our yardwork and the first visit was the day after people put up their signs. At least we know better next year.
But yes, definitely a huge omission that I don't think even occurs to a lot of people. And as you pointed out, we don't even have to worry about managing the lawn care visits. They show up and mow/ weed every so often. The house cleaner I have to make sure someone is home to let in*, but not so wrapped up in phone calls we can't relocate as they clean.
Also, now I'm wondering about the demographics (beyond having the money to do it) of who hires house cleaners. Growing up the only people I knew who paid people to come clean on a regular basis were the divorced dads. Now I know more couples who have someone come clean once or twice a month, but I think the couples I know now tend to be more egalitarian. I'm not sure if that's strictly a factor of millennial/gen X doing things better or location (urban and a bit more liberal).
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:21 AM on August 19, 2022
This does definitely seem like there'd be a lot of variability by location. A lot of neighbors had some overgrown yards where I grew up, and where I live now is a neighborhood where people promote no-mow May (and many have kept mowing to a minimum for the rest of the summer). Which was a bit embarrassing when we did outsource our yardwork and the first visit was the day after people put up their signs. At least we know better next year.
But yes, definitely a huge omission that I don't think even occurs to a lot of people. And as you pointed out, we don't even have to worry about managing the lawn care visits. They show up and mow/ weed every so often. The house cleaner I have to make sure someone is home to let in*, but not so wrapped up in phone calls we can't relocate as they clean.
Also, now I'm wondering about the demographics (beyond having the money to do it) of who hires house cleaners. Growing up the only people I knew who paid people to come clean on a regular basis were the divorced dads. Now I know more couples who have someone come clean once or twice a month, but I think the couples I know now tend to be more egalitarian. I'm not sure if that's strictly a factor of millennial/gen X doing things better or location (urban and a bit more liberal).
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:21 AM on August 19, 2022
This is sad but hopeful. I’m a single woman nearing 40. The older I get, the less bullshit I’m willing to accept and a partner who doesn’t pull their weight, in whichever form, is completely unappealing. I had really hoped we’d be further at this point as a society but we’re not and won’t be any time soon. I would love a partnership but realize I’m unlikely to find what I’m looking for, at least not any time soon. If I don’t have kids, I probably won’t get married and probably won’t cohabitate with a partner ever again. I love to take care of others but am so glad none of my previous relationships, all imbalanced regardless of different-sex or same-sex status, didn’t last so I could find myself and set standards high. Indeed, I am lucky I live at a time where I can be paid to nurture and care for others in my career, then go home and chill out. My parents, who have a quite equitable relationship, have been encouraging as they have been more grounded than I was. We still are sold this bullshit by society that we’ll find a wealthy partner who does their equal share, and that’s just not true for most all. The cool thing is that I think it’ll get better with each generation, and my sisters are married to wonderful men who seem to do as much, if not close. Life is hard and it’s certainly not getting easier for hardly anyone in 2022!
posted by smorgasbord at 9:24 AM on August 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 9:24 AM on August 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also, now I'm wondering about the demographics (beyond having the money to do it) of who hires house cleaners. Growing up the only people I knew who paid people to come clean on a regular basis were the divorced dads. Now I know more couples who have someone come clean once or twice a month, but I think the couples I know now tend to be more egalitarian.
Couples very rarely hire house cleaners. Do you think there are any couples out there where they sit down and discuss house cleaner service options, take turns calling potential cleaners, take turns scheduling the cleaning and indicating the scope of work they want done when a cleaner comes?
In heterosexual couples, I promise you that 90+% of the time, women hire house cleaners. And that's work, too.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:26 AM on August 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
Couples very rarely hire house cleaners. Do you think there are any couples out there where they sit down and discuss house cleaner service options, take turns calling potential cleaners, take turns scheduling the cleaning and indicating the scope of work they want done when a cleaner comes?
In heterosexual couples, I promise you that 90+% of the time, women hire house cleaners. And that's work, too.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:26 AM on August 19, 2022 [13 favorites]
Also, now I'm wondering about the demographics (beyond having the money to do it) of who hires house cleaners.
Statistically: RE: "having the money to do it". 10% of households is actually smaller than the number who have a net worth of over $1m (in the US, not including the value of their home), closing in on about $2m (could be off a bit, I haven't looked lately).
And considering that there very well could be a sizable (comparatively) number of divorced dads and busy but progressive middle class people who hire house cleaners, then you can easily say that married women with high net worth are still cleaning their houses, and that cuts off somewhere above $2million dollars in net worth.
Again, for rough comparison, lawn care purchasers: about $70k in salary and a net worth of around $120k.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:54 AM on August 19, 2022
Statistically: RE: "having the money to do it". 10% of households is actually smaller than the number who have a net worth of over $1m (in the US, not including the value of their home), closing in on about $2m (could be off a bit, I haven't looked lately).
And considering that there very well could be a sizable (comparatively) number of divorced dads and busy but progressive middle class people who hire house cleaners, then you can easily say that married women with high net worth are still cleaning their houses, and that cuts off somewhere above $2million dollars in net worth.
Again, for rough comparison, lawn care purchasers: about $70k in salary and a net worth of around $120k.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:54 AM on August 19, 2022
I am single, in part, because I always knew I would not put up with this. I knew that I would feel so disrespected it would end very quickly in anger and resentment and then divorce. And one thing that always got me was men comparing themselves to other men and arguing that they help more than other men. Like first of all, I don't want someone to "help." I want someone to do his share. I don't understand why helping with the housework didn't go the way of babysitting your own kids. Second, the relevant comparison group for determining whether you're doing your fair share is not people in other households. It is other adults in YOUR household. Why on earth would the fairness be affected by what other men do?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:55 AM on August 19, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:55 AM on August 19, 2022 [18 favorites]
women hire house cleaners. And that's work, too
on the whole I am very very lucky with my husband and his attitude/perspective on all of this stuff. we don't do a 50-50 thing but we are both generally satisfied with how things break down.
but he DOES NOT understand that I spend a certain amount of time/energy/mental load preparing for our twice monthly cleaning person to come. I have, to an extent, to clean the house before she comes.
posted by supermedusa at 10:01 AM on August 19, 2022 [8 favorites]
on the whole I am very very lucky with my husband and his attitude/perspective on all of this stuff. we don't do a 50-50 thing but we are both generally satisfied with how things break down.
but he DOES NOT understand that I spend a certain amount of time/energy/mental load preparing for our twice monthly cleaning person to come. I have, to an extent, to clean the house before she comes.
posted by supermedusa at 10:01 AM on August 19, 2022 [8 favorites]
In heterosexual couples, I promise you that 90+% of the time, women hire house cleaners. And that's work, too.
My main thought was I've seen plenty of more traditional (boomer) men suddenly find paying a house cleaner a reasonable expense once they no longer live with a person cleaning up after them.
My husband dealt with all of the initial set up for the cleaners, and ongoing management is fairly mutual, which isn't unique in our current friend group. But I'm willing to accept that I'm in an outlier group. I was hoping the difference I was seeing was a more universal generational shift in a positive direction.
posted by ghost phoneme at 10:13 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
My main thought was I've seen plenty of more traditional (boomer) men suddenly find paying a house cleaner a reasonable expense once they no longer live with a person cleaning up after them.
My husband dealt with all of the initial set up for the cleaners, and ongoing management is fairly mutual, which isn't unique in our current friend group. But I'm willing to accept that I'm in an outlier group. I was hoping the difference I was seeing was a more universal generational shift in a positive direction.
posted by ghost phoneme at 10:13 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Statistically: RE: "having the money to do it". 10% of households is actually smaller than the number who have a net worth of over $1m (in the US, not including the value of their home), closing in on about $2m (could be off a bit, I haven't looked lately).
Does it count as hiring a cleaning service if you're paying someone who is not part of an agency? If cleaning is part of the duties of your permanent household staff? I think that '10% of households use house cleaning services' blind us to how people are actually doing this.
posted by beaning at 10:24 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Does it count as hiring a cleaning service if you're paying someone who is not part of an agency? If cleaning is part of the duties of your permanent household staff? I think that '10% of households use house cleaning services' blind us to how people are actually doing this.
posted by beaning at 10:24 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
If cleaning is part of the duties of your permanent household staff?
Such a tiny percentage of households in the US have permanent staff, it's not really comparable. Maybe you could add up 'live-in nannies' to that agency cleaning number as they tend to care for children and clean the house, but 'nanny' is in the 4% range.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:37 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Such a tiny percentage of households in the US have permanent staff, it's not really comparable. Maybe you could add up 'live-in nannies' to that agency cleaning number as they tend to care for children and clean the house, but 'nanny' is in the 4% range.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:37 AM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
When we went into lockdown in 2020 I learned how many of my friends (good earner but not like, sky-high earners) had cleaners and I was floored. For years and in some cases decades I've been trying to keep my house at the same standard and I thought we were all cleaning.
I think the article is great but can't articulate more response than that or I'll get upset. My husband has gotten a lot better but...we do fit into these norms and it has impacted how much time I've had.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:41 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think the article is great but can't articulate more response than that or I'll get upset. My husband has gotten a lot better but...we do fit into these norms and it has impacted how much time I've had.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:41 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
Interesting article and I have kept tabs on Anne Helen Petersen's writings about burnout and gendered expectations in marriage, especially around household maintenance. Here is one perspective on this issue.
I (M, early forties) was raised in a "traditional" gendered household where my father had to travel often for work which meant my mother was responsible for the bulk of the housework and cooking. My mother was used to household work as she was the eldest child in a large military family in the 50s/60s and spent almost her whole pre-married life in on-base living quarters. She was and still is a Type A personality who still has copies of her tax returns going back to 1971 filed away neatly in her home office. She was also very open that she hated doing all the housework herself and especially hated that the expectation was that they were the "woman's" work. Her solution to the "housework" issue was to raise my brother and I with an almost psychotic focus on household chores and maintenance.
Every morning from about age 10 onwards I had a handwritten list of chores placed next to my bowl of cereal in the morning, that had to be handed in by end of day for an inspection. By age sixteen, I was exclusively responsible on a regular basis for (among other things): changing oil and windshield fluid in the cars, weeding the lawns, cleaning out leaves from our gutters, filing my taxes and balancing my checkbook, polishing my dad's dress shoes and ironing his dress shirts, switching my bedsheets out, cooking 3 dinners a week for the entire family, and scrubbing and cleaning two of the four bathrooms in our home (which we did every other week). I also had to learn how to darn socks and use a sewing machine (which thankfully I have had little reason to do as an adult). Every Christmas and birthday gift had to be responded to with a handwritten thank you note mailed to the person within 2 weeks of receipt (she asked our extended family to call her if they didn't come, and boy did we catch hell if we failed to thank someone for a gift). My brother was responsible for making sure we sent birthday and anniversary cards to family members. When our next door neighbors had their children, we (with help from our mom!) learned how to feed, clean, change and put babies down for naps. You can imagine how odd it was in the late 1980s for two boys to be doing that - and while we got some sideeyes from the husband - even at age 12 I could tell the mom was beyond relieved.
Honestly, it felt like the only chore I never completed for my parents was repaving the asphalt in our driveway.
What's more, while my brother and I could negotiate back and forth on who did certain chores, we would both be held accountable if they weren't done - punishments usually included suspension of allowance, grounding, or no TV/outings with friends. So we had to keep track of how each of us was doing, and occasionally pitch in to help the other.
By the time we were teenagers my mother had delegated effectively all of the household chores to us. I remember her saying once, she had to do household chores her whole life, now she deserved a break. The only concessions were that schoolwork (and later parttime jobs) had to come first, but we had to speak up and be proactive about managing our time - I learned the hard way to do that after a few weeknights where I was scrubbing our bathroom at 930 pm.
Reading that over now makes it sound like I was raised in an hardass military academy, but please don't take that impression away - my parents are both tremendously loving people, they had and still have a loving marriage, and my mother was very open and clear about how unfair she felt gendered divisions of labour were and that her kids had to be capable and involved husbands and partners. She wouldn't have ever used terms like being the "noticer" or emotional labour or anything like that, but both my brother and I learned early on that there was no shirking or avoiding any chore or task in the house and that men often were very careless in what they expected out of their partners.
As a result, while both my brother and I have relaxed a little bit in our own households and marriages, we are active and equal partners in household maintenance (and frankly in a couple of areas traditionally coded to women, like ironing clothes and cooking, we are way better at them than our wives!).
So, take it from this guy: male excuses around household maintenance are bullshit. I'm not saying raise your kids the way my mom did, but you can absolutely be a productive partner and member of a household and your partner deserves nothing less. I still think you have to have the open conversations around what the shared standards of your household labor will be, but your partner needs to know that you can commit 100% to doing whatever tasks around the house are needed, and "noticing" when something needs to happen. And we have shared Google calendars nowadays, which is tons easier than what I had to deal with growing up.
posted by fortitude25 at 10:48 AM on August 19, 2022 [30 favorites]
I (M, early forties) was raised in a "traditional" gendered household where my father had to travel often for work which meant my mother was responsible for the bulk of the housework and cooking. My mother was used to household work as she was the eldest child in a large military family in the 50s/60s and spent almost her whole pre-married life in on-base living quarters. She was and still is a Type A personality who still has copies of her tax returns going back to 1971 filed away neatly in her home office. She was also very open that she hated doing all the housework herself and especially hated that the expectation was that they were the "woman's" work. Her solution to the "housework" issue was to raise my brother and I with an almost psychotic focus on household chores and maintenance.
Every morning from about age 10 onwards I had a handwritten list of chores placed next to my bowl of cereal in the morning, that had to be handed in by end of day for an inspection. By age sixteen, I was exclusively responsible on a regular basis for (among other things): changing oil and windshield fluid in the cars, weeding the lawns, cleaning out leaves from our gutters, filing my taxes and balancing my checkbook, polishing my dad's dress shoes and ironing his dress shirts, switching my bedsheets out, cooking 3 dinners a week for the entire family, and scrubbing and cleaning two of the four bathrooms in our home (which we did every other week). I also had to learn how to darn socks and use a sewing machine (which thankfully I have had little reason to do as an adult). Every Christmas and birthday gift had to be responded to with a handwritten thank you note mailed to the person within 2 weeks of receipt (she asked our extended family to call her if they didn't come, and boy did we catch hell if we failed to thank someone for a gift). My brother was responsible for making sure we sent birthday and anniversary cards to family members. When our next door neighbors had their children, we (with help from our mom!) learned how to feed, clean, change and put babies down for naps. You can imagine how odd it was in the late 1980s for two boys to be doing that - and while we got some sideeyes from the husband - even at age 12 I could tell the mom was beyond relieved.
Honestly, it felt like the only chore I never completed for my parents was repaving the asphalt in our driveway.
What's more, while my brother and I could negotiate back and forth on who did certain chores, we would both be held accountable if they weren't done - punishments usually included suspension of allowance, grounding, or no TV/outings with friends. So we had to keep track of how each of us was doing, and occasionally pitch in to help the other.
By the time we were teenagers my mother had delegated effectively all of the household chores to us. I remember her saying once, she had to do household chores her whole life, now she deserved a break. The only concessions were that schoolwork (and later parttime jobs) had to come first, but we had to speak up and be proactive about managing our time - I learned the hard way to do that after a few weeknights where I was scrubbing our bathroom at 930 pm.
Reading that over now makes it sound like I was raised in an hardass military academy, but please don't take that impression away - my parents are both tremendously loving people, they had and still have a loving marriage, and my mother was very open and clear about how unfair she felt gendered divisions of labour were and that her kids had to be capable and involved husbands and partners. She wouldn't have ever used terms like being the "noticer" or emotional labour or anything like that, but both my brother and I learned early on that there was no shirking or avoiding any chore or task in the house and that men often were very careless in what they expected out of their partners.
As a result, while both my brother and I have relaxed a little bit in our own households and marriages, we are active and equal partners in household maintenance (and frankly in a couple of areas traditionally coded to women, like ironing clothes and cooking, we are way better at them than our wives!).
So, take it from this guy: male excuses around household maintenance are bullshit. I'm not saying raise your kids the way my mom did, but you can absolutely be a productive partner and member of a household and your partner deserves nothing less. I still think you have to have the open conversations around what the shared standards of your household labor will be, but your partner needs to know that you can commit 100% to doing whatever tasks around the house are needed, and "noticing" when something needs to happen. And we have shared Google calendars nowadays, which is tons easier than what I had to deal with growing up.
posted by fortitude25 at 10:48 AM on August 19, 2022 [30 favorites]
I read this a few days back, and really liked the concept of "The Noticer" (one who notices things).
But I also think the Noticer does more, and we don’t talk about this extra stuff enough. So permit me to dive in here. The Noticer is often the person in the house who does all the nice little things: putting family photos around the home; buying pumpkins for decoration in October; organizing social events with friends and family. These individual acts might not make or break a household, but collectively, they are essential to making a home friendlier, more inviting, and more comfortable.
Sure, the Noticers often experience pleasure from doing these little things. (I know I do.) But I also think the Non-Noticers probably appreciate these warm touches more than they care to admit.
...
Noticers care about others, and noticing is a way to demonstrate love.
posted by travertina at 10:50 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
But I also think the Noticer does more, and we don’t talk about this extra stuff enough. So permit me to dive in here. The Noticer is often the person in the house who does all the nice little things: putting family photos around the home; buying pumpkins for decoration in October; organizing social events with friends and family. These individual acts might not make or break a household, but collectively, they are essential to making a home friendlier, more inviting, and more comfortable.
Sure, the Noticers often experience pleasure from doing these little things. (I know I do.) But I also think the Non-Noticers probably appreciate these warm touches more than they care to admit.
...
Noticers care about others, and noticing is a way to demonstrate love.
posted by travertina at 10:50 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
"This is mentioned in the article but it bugs me when I have to text their partner just to set up an outing for us, or when they say hold on I have to check. Like know your own calendar! "
My guess is you're not married.
posted by Billiken at 11:07 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
My guess is you're not married.
posted by Billiken at 11:07 AM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think my wife and I are pretty good at maintaining domestic equality (and I think she would agree). I'm often surprised (due to naivite on my part) how domestic inequality is apparently the norm, but I think a few things have helped us find a healthy balance.
When we started having kids, for us it was somehow clear that the easiest way to maintain a balanced division of labour was simply to swap chores every day. Not only does this divvy up the time naturally, but it also helped us develop a good sense of how much time each chore takes. Moreover, since we both work full-time and travel semi-regularly, we're often alone running our home for days at a time, and so we need to know how to manage every chore.
Over time we've started to specialize in certain chores (I run the kitchen, she manages laundry, etc...) but I think it's important that we started with a foundation where we split each task.
posted by Alex404 at 11:22 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
When we started having kids, for us it was somehow clear that the easiest way to maintain a balanced division of labour was simply to swap chores every day. Not only does this divvy up the time naturally, but it also helped us develop a good sense of how much time each chore takes. Moreover, since we both work full-time and travel semi-regularly, we're often alone running our home for days at a time, and so we need to know how to manage every chore.
Over time we've started to specialize in certain chores (I run the kitchen, she manages laundry, etc...) but I think it's important that we started with a foundation where we split each task.
posted by Alex404 at 11:22 AM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
My guess is you're not married.
I'm married and I hate it too. I am not the scheduler in my household. I do it all day at work for my bosses and refuse to be in charge of the calendar at home too. But I can look at a google calendar and tell somebody if I am free or not, and put a note on the calendar myself.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:14 PM on August 19, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm married and I hate it too. I am not the scheduler in my household. I do it all day at work for my bosses and refuse to be in charge of the calendar at home too. But I can look at a google calendar and tell somebody if I am free or not, and put a note on the calendar myself.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:14 PM on August 19, 2022 [7 favorites]
I want to respond to this sassy answer, not to me but someone else: “My guess is you're not married.”
Unnecessarily insulting, for starters. Not cool to sarcastically assume someone is oblivious and, therefore, lesser due to a particular marital status because their life experience is different from yours. I would say this assumption is a generational difference but in reality, it’s a difference of priorities. Plenty of married couples, especially married couples with kids, have joint calendars on paper and/or digitally. Some couples rely on one person to do all the planning, some share but prefer to check in before each event and others have decided each is free to do wherever. It’s not married versus unmarried.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:15 PM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
Unnecessarily insulting, for starters. Not cool to sarcastically assume someone is oblivious and, therefore, lesser due to a particular marital status because their life experience is different from yours. I would say this assumption is a generational difference but in reality, it’s a difference of priorities. Plenty of married couples, especially married couples with kids, have joint calendars on paper and/or digitally. Some couples rely on one person to do all the planning, some share but prefer to check in before each event and others have decided each is free to do wherever. It’s not married versus unmarried.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:15 PM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]
I think Noticers need to do less.
I'm experimenting with this approach. My house has gone to hell and everyone is resentful that the little attentions have disappeared, and that they are more responsible for their own stuff, like putting sheets on their beds or hanging up clean laundry or refilling the ice trays. They are very unhappy that this is cutting into their leisure time. I'm trying not to notice.
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:20 PM on August 19, 2022 [25 favorites]
I'm experimenting with this approach. My house has gone to hell and everyone is resentful that the little attentions have disappeared, and that they are more responsible for their own stuff, like putting sheets on their beds or hanging up clean laundry or refilling the ice trays. They are very unhappy that this is cutting into their leisure time. I'm trying not to notice.
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:20 PM on August 19, 2022 [25 favorites]
I've been in 3 long term (many year) relationships (cishet) and a few shorter term. I'm old and have seen the attitudes back then, and how (some!) has changed over the years.
Not seeing one issue in this discussion that it took me way too long to notice.
In all the disagreements and the animosity over "it was right there! How could (usually) he not see it?" over the (usually) men being pigs in these type of discussions.
It took me many years to realize that I was capable (and did!) just... not see what I didn't want to see. The dishes left on counters the items on the floor the...
And it's not "didn't want to see" so much as "that's not important" and it just fades into the background.
I didn't have much of a background growing up so my "background" for what's "not important" is probably worse than a lot of other people but I noticed some of the same behavior in other guys I've known. Almost never for the women I've known. Don't know if it's socialization in Women that makes them more sensitive to these issues, something built-in, or what. Or maybe it's just made up in my head.
But I've always wondered in these discussions how much it's a basic imbalance in... ?
But it doesn't matter what it is. The "issues" can be sorted out as a couple. If both people *want* to.
posted by aleph at 12:33 PM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not seeing one issue in this discussion that it took me way too long to notice.
In all the disagreements and the animosity over "it was right there! How could (usually) he not see it?" over the (usually) men being pigs in these type of discussions.
It took me many years to realize that I was capable (and did!) just... not see what I didn't want to see. The dishes left on counters the items on the floor the...
And it's not "didn't want to see" so much as "that's not important" and it just fades into the background.
I didn't have much of a background growing up so my "background" for what's "not important" is probably worse than a lot of other people but I noticed some of the same behavior in other guys I've known. Almost never for the women I've known. Don't know if it's socialization in Women that makes them more sensitive to these issues, something built-in, or what. Or maybe it's just made up in my head.
But I've always wondered in these discussions how much it's a basic imbalance in... ?
But it doesn't matter what it is. The "issues" can be sorted out as a couple. If both people *want* to.
posted by aleph at 12:33 PM on August 19, 2022 [3 favorites]
For context, our kid is autistic and does poorly with afterschool care and summer care. It also takes time and effort to connect him with the professional help he needs and schlep him to appointments.
So: there will be a lot of childcare labor during the day, but not during school hours. We plan to continue splitting evening and weekend childcare and dinner 50/50 as we have been doing. But I'm not sure how to consider other domestic household labor (cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, home repairs, planning etc).
NB: I do not know you, your wife, or your kid, so the grain of salt you should take this with might be pretty big. But just from what I'm reading here, it seems like it's possible that the childcare labor outside of school hours may tend to be a bit more labor-intensive than it would be in most families? Like, when my sister and I came home after school, we were pretty much able to fend for ourselves with no real supervision from our mother. Between getting off the bus and sitting down to dinner, on any given day we might only even see her long enough to exchange a quick greeting. If your kids needs more one-on-one attention than that, it might be the case that school hours will be when your wife catches up on stuff she might otherwise have done while the kid was home.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:03 PM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
So: there will be a lot of childcare labor during the day, but not during school hours. We plan to continue splitting evening and weekend childcare and dinner 50/50 as we have been doing. But I'm not sure how to consider other domestic household labor (cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, home repairs, planning etc).
NB: I do not know you, your wife, or your kid, so the grain of salt you should take this with might be pretty big. But just from what I'm reading here, it seems like it's possible that the childcare labor outside of school hours may tend to be a bit more labor-intensive than it would be in most families? Like, when my sister and I came home after school, we were pretty much able to fend for ourselves with no real supervision from our mother. Between getting off the bus and sitting down to dinner, on any given day we might only even see her long enough to exchange a quick greeting. If your kids needs more one-on-one attention than that, it might be the case that school hours will be when your wife catches up on stuff she might otherwise have done while the kid was home.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:03 PM on August 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
Aleph, I think it's socialization. My husband recently (about a year ago) took over the vast bulk of household chores and I just don't notice things that I used to have to pay attention to (because I "owned" the responsibility to take care of it). They just fade into the background. I literally last night walked into the house and dumped some folding lawn chairs by the door as I came in, with a very entitled "this is somebody else's job to deal with" kind of attitude, and not even five minutes later my husband said "what's with the chairs" and I looked around all confused for a second because I had forgotten that I had put them there. They had already receded out of notice. So I don't think the noticing part is somehow inherent.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:21 PM on August 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 1:21 PM on August 19, 2022 [6 favorites]
@joannemerriam: Could be, don't know.
Just have heard quite a bit from women about the issue in discussions like this thread, with sometimes implying the guy was lazy/slacking/lying-about-not-seeing and "why do you keep stepping around that instead of picking it up and putting it away" type comments. Of course most of it was probably that. But it wasn't with me when I started to catch on. I literally "tuned it out".
(shrug)
That was fine. For me living alone. Once I realized my partner *needed* this (and I didn't) it re-framed the issue for me and I was able to deal with it as part of a couple a lot better.
posted by aleph at 1:39 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just have heard quite a bit from women about the issue in discussions like this thread, with sometimes implying the guy was lazy/slacking/lying-about-not-seeing and "why do you keep stepping around that instead of picking it up and putting it away" type comments. Of course most of it was probably that. But it wasn't with me when I started to catch on. I literally "tuned it out".
(shrug)
That was fine. For me living alone. Once I realized my partner *needed* this (and I didn't) it re-framed the issue for me and I was able to deal with it as part of a couple a lot better.
posted by aleph at 1:39 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
It is absolutely socialization. One interesting thing that I've been thinking of since reading this piece isn't chores in the big ongoing sense, but meal cleanup. I kvetched at my partner for a while about how I hated that after big meals, all the women stood up and started clearing (related: my favorite Six Feet Under scene) and all the men just stayed at the table and continued chatting. This made him notice it too, and he started clearing with me. And even though nobody ever says anything, when he starts clearing, other men start clearing too. You can see it happen - the hostess starts clearing, the women stand up to help, the men continue talking until they look up to see my partner holding a stack of plates, and suddenly the labor becomes visible to them. Then they stand up and start helping too. It's both cheering and infuriating, because it's always obvious when the labor invisible until a man starting doing it too.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 1:42 PM on August 19, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 1:42 PM on August 19, 2022 [29 favorites]
Don't know if it's socialization in Women that makes them more sensitive to these issues, something built-in, or what.
Some people are better at noticing things in plain sight than others, but as a whole women are socialised to believe that they ought to be able to notice while men are socialised to believe that they do not have to. I am a woman, I am very bad at putting things down and forgetting I have done so. Even things that are important to me, like me phone. I am even worse with things at home that are more my husband's responsibility.
An example of why it's a problem is, the previously shared She divorced me because I left the dishes by the sink. (Note that the article is very gendered and not at all perfect, but it is right that choosing to ignore small things is a problem; if the glass doesn't really matter then why not just put it in the dishwasher.)
posted by plonkee at 1:57 PM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Some people are better at noticing things in plain sight than others, but as a whole women are socialised to believe that they ought to be able to notice while men are socialised to believe that they do not have to. I am a woman, I am very bad at putting things down and forgetting I have done so. Even things that are important to me, like me phone. I am even worse with things at home that are more my husband's responsibility.
An example of why it's a problem is, the previously shared She divorced me because I left the dishes by the sink. (Note that the article is very gendered and not at all perfect, but it is right that choosing to ignore small things is a problem; if the glass doesn't really matter then why not just put it in the dishwasher.)
posted by plonkee at 1:57 PM on August 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
> If your kids needs more one-on-one attention than that, it might be the case that school hours will be when your wife catches up on stuff she might otherwise have done while the kid was home.
Absolutely. When he's around, due to his challenges, childcare takes 100% attention, or close to it. So the only time that she would be "free" for other domestic labor is during school hours.
But not to get too bogged down with my specific situation, my question is: what is a fair way to think about division of domestic labor in cases where one partner is a stay at home parent of a schoolgoing child?
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:02 PM on August 19, 2022
Absolutely. When he's around, due to his challenges, childcare takes 100% attention, or close to it. So the only time that she would be "free" for other domestic labor is during school hours.
But not to get too bogged down with my specific situation, my question is: what is a fair way to think about division of domestic labor in cases where one partner is a stay at home parent of a schoolgoing child?
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:02 PM on August 19, 2022
"Some people are better at noticing things in plain sight than others..."
Oh, I'm definitely *able* to notice these things. I can do the thing in my head and then I notice *everything* for a time. It's just what gets classified as "unimportant" in the ongoing algorithms that run in my head.
Living alone (now) I tend to not see a *lot* of stuff and it just builds up and suddenly something goes over a threshold and I suddenly do (what feels like) a *lot* of cleaning/straightening/putting-away. And then it goes to the next time.
As joannemerriam has said, the not-seeing can exist in both but I do wonder if there's a sex-based disparity in what a person is *able* to ignore before getting that type of trigger. But probably not.
posted by aleph at 2:07 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, I'm definitely *able* to notice these things. I can do the thing in my head and then I notice *everything* for a time. It's just what gets classified as "unimportant" in the ongoing algorithms that run in my head.
Living alone (now) I tend to not see a *lot* of stuff and it just builds up and suddenly something goes over a threshold and I suddenly do (what feels like) a *lot* of cleaning/straightening/putting-away. And then it goes to the next time.
As joannemerriam has said, the not-seeing can exist in both but I do wonder if there's a sex-based disparity in what a person is *able* to ignore before getting that type of trigger. But probably not.
posted by aleph at 2:07 PM on August 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think I am the exact target audience for this article (and have put the book it's promoting on order from the library as a result!): my husband and I are both feminists, deeply committed to the idea of being equal partners in the home, have had many (many!) conversations about division of labour and how we would like it to be....and yet we still? somehow? have managed to fall almost comically into the stereotypical male and female roles when it comes to household and caregiving tasks. This situation was compounded exponentially when our daughter was born a year ago, and I can envision it getting a lot worse as she gets older and her school/activity/care task load and complexity increases.
The ideas in the article about routine/metabolic and intermittent/maintenance tasks ring very very true to me and are a useful way of framing things in upcoming conversations with my husband. The concept of one person (usually the one socialized as a female) being the "noticer" is also a very useful concept for me in thinking about why and how deeply certain things in the house seem to weigh on me and slide off him. One thing the article maybe implies but I think is worth stating explicitly and that I know contributes to my own (neurotic) "Noticing" tendencies is the way that ensuring that the home is pleasant, clean, comforting, and "homey" becomes important to women because failure to do so results in shame and judgement from others, a consequence that men entirely avoid regardless of their contribution (or lack thereof) to the aesthetic state of the home. Yes, I like to clean and display meaningful family photos and put out cozy blankets and have nice food and drinks available for guests because I want the people I love and care about to feel comfortable and welcome in my home, and because I want them to want to come back, and because I want them to know that I value their visit, and all of those warm fuzzy things. BUT ALSO! I do all those things because I know that if I don't, there's a very good chance (to a greater or lesser degree of consciousness, depending on the guest) that if those things are not done, it will be seen as a personal failing on my part, and I will be judged negatively for it and my husband will not. A messy or not-pretty or unwelcoming home is (subconsciously or otherwise) very much equated with an almost amoral degree of incompetence at general female-ness in the minds of more people (and often in women themselves) than I think most people would wish to admit. I wish I did not care about this kind of petty judgement.....but I do care about it. I am neither socially powerful enough or self-assured enough to afford nonchalance on this issue.
It is honestly uncanny how deeply ingrained these expectations and behaviours and roles must be, because I promise you that neither my husband nor I wanted to be here, and both of us (yes, including him) have actively initiated conversations about changing our status quo into something more equitable several times over the years. Our personal situation is slightly skewed by the fact that he is the sole breadwinner as I am currently unemployed (I shy away from the "stay at home Mom" label, as that suggests the situation was a conscious choice on my part and not an unfortunate circumstance of the trashfire academic job market, but I digress....), but on the whole it remains a strangely intractable problem in our relationship, despite our consciousness of it, our commitment to the broader ideals of gender equity, and our willingness to change. I very much look forward to learning more about the "practical" steps and solutions that the article suggests are explored further in the book!!
posted by Dorinda at 2:40 PM on August 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
The ideas in the article about routine/metabolic and intermittent/maintenance tasks ring very very true to me and are a useful way of framing things in upcoming conversations with my husband. The concept of one person (usually the one socialized as a female) being the "noticer" is also a very useful concept for me in thinking about why and how deeply certain things in the house seem to weigh on me and slide off him. One thing the article maybe implies but I think is worth stating explicitly and that I know contributes to my own (neurotic) "Noticing" tendencies is the way that ensuring that the home is pleasant, clean, comforting, and "homey" becomes important to women because failure to do so results in shame and judgement from others, a consequence that men entirely avoid regardless of their contribution (or lack thereof) to the aesthetic state of the home. Yes, I like to clean and display meaningful family photos and put out cozy blankets and have nice food and drinks available for guests because I want the people I love and care about to feel comfortable and welcome in my home, and because I want them to want to come back, and because I want them to know that I value their visit, and all of those warm fuzzy things. BUT ALSO! I do all those things because I know that if I don't, there's a very good chance (to a greater or lesser degree of consciousness, depending on the guest) that if those things are not done, it will be seen as a personal failing on my part, and I will be judged negatively for it and my husband will not. A messy or not-pretty or unwelcoming home is (subconsciously or otherwise) very much equated with an almost amoral degree of incompetence at general female-ness in the minds of more people (and often in women themselves) than I think most people would wish to admit. I wish I did not care about this kind of petty judgement.....but I do care about it. I am neither socially powerful enough or self-assured enough to afford nonchalance on this issue.
It is honestly uncanny how deeply ingrained these expectations and behaviours and roles must be, because I promise you that neither my husband nor I wanted to be here, and both of us (yes, including him) have actively initiated conversations about changing our status quo into something more equitable several times over the years. Our personal situation is slightly skewed by the fact that he is the sole breadwinner as I am currently unemployed (I shy away from the "stay at home Mom" label, as that suggests the situation was a conscious choice on my part and not an unfortunate circumstance of the trashfire academic job market, but I digress....), but on the whole it remains a strangely intractable problem in our relationship, despite our consciousness of it, our commitment to the broader ideals of gender equity, and our willingness to change. I very much look forward to learning more about the "practical" steps and solutions that the article suggests are explored further in the book!!
posted by Dorinda at 2:40 PM on August 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
what is a fair way to think about division of domestic labor in cases where one partner is a stay at home parent of a schoolgoing child?
One option would be to try to make the amount of downtime and sleep you each have be even or fair. Kind of approaching the problem from the other end.
posted by plonkee at 2:56 PM on August 19, 2022 [22 favorites]
One option would be to try to make the amount of downtime and sleep you each have be even or fair. Kind of approaching the problem from the other end.
posted by plonkee at 2:56 PM on August 19, 2022 [22 favorites]
plonkee's point is excellent! How can you both get the same amount of free time? Plus the time you need to sleep, eat, and exercise in addition to free time? Start from there.
My house has gone to hell and everyone is resentful that the little attentions have disappeared, and that they are more responsible for their own stuff, like putting sheets on their beds or hanging up clean laundry or refilling the ice trays. They are very unhappy that this is cutting into their leisure time. I'm trying not to notice.
I bet they are unhappy, MonkeyToes. I hope you can tolerate the discomfort of their unhappiness until the situation has become the new normal in your household. I remember after I had been in Al-Anon (for the friends and families of alcoholics) for a few years and was learning to set boundaries (what? that's a thing?) and said no to my nearly adult child at the time. They came back with something like, "I've been supportive of this Al-Anon stuff but now you're going too far."
Yeah, no. I was not.
You know that saying about how when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression? Most of the time there will be Big Feels and sometimes Loudness when we push toward a more equitable situation, structure, system, whatever. Because the other person is losing something in the process. I think it is important to acknowledge that loss.
"Yes, your life was easier before. But only because my life was much, much harder than it should have been. That is not fair or sustainable, and that era is over." (That is an imaginary stump speech I wish my mom had given my dad. She left him instead. That works, too. Speaking of which, from the blue previously, It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal.)
Importantly, the disgruntled parties now required to step up and do more are also gaining something, as the article notes. Learning to take care of yourself and others by doing laundry, cooking, cleaning, making calls, planning, or whatever is worthwhile. But that gain isn't necessarily noticed or appreciated (at least initially and regardless of context, whether home or work) by the folks suddenly forced to step up and do their part.
That often vociferous reaction to change, especially change that feels like a loss, is deeply human and it sucks soooo much when that reaction is aimed at you. Hang in there, MonkeyToes!
posted by Bella Donna at 1:12 AM on August 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
My house has gone to hell and everyone is resentful that the little attentions have disappeared, and that they are more responsible for their own stuff, like putting sheets on their beds or hanging up clean laundry or refilling the ice trays. They are very unhappy that this is cutting into their leisure time. I'm trying not to notice.
I bet they are unhappy, MonkeyToes. I hope you can tolerate the discomfort of their unhappiness until the situation has become the new normal in your household. I remember after I had been in Al-Anon (for the friends and families of alcoholics) for a few years and was learning to set boundaries (what? that's a thing?) and said no to my nearly adult child at the time. They came back with something like, "I've been supportive of this Al-Anon stuff but now you're going too far."
Yeah, no. I was not.
You know that saying about how when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression? Most of the time there will be Big Feels and sometimes Loudness when we push toward a more equitable situation, structure, system, whatever. Because the other person is losing something in the process. I think it is important to acknowledge that loss.
"Yes, your life was easier before. But only because my life was much, much harder than it should have been. That is not fair or sustainable, and that era is over." (That is an imaginary stump speech I wish my mom had given my dad. She left him instead. That works, too. Speaking of which, from the blue previously, It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal.)
Importantly, the disgruntled parties now required to step up and do more are also gaining something, as the article notes. Learning to take care of yourself and others by doing laundry, cooking, cleaning, making calls, planning, or whatever is worthwhile. But that gain isn't necessarily noticed or appreciated (at least initially and regardless of context, whether home or work) by the folks suddenly forced to step up and do their part.
That often vociferous reaction to change, especially change that feels like a loss, is deeply human and it sucks soooo much when that reaction is aimed at you. Hang in there, MonkeyToes!
posted by Bella Donna at 1:12 AM on August 20, 2022 [18 favorites]
One option would be to try to make the amount of downtime and sleep you each have be even or fair. Kind of approaching the problem from the other end.
I think this is a good starting point. However it is worth applying a sort of... emotional intensity(?) modifier to those hours. In some cases, and recognising that all autistic children are different and I don't know your circumstances but this might be one, caring responsibilities are intensely draining in a way that might not be captured by you both "working" an equal day before you come home. On the other hand, some children at some stages of life are not so intense to deal with and obviously while children are at school and other activities is a sort of down-time. Also, some jobs are extremely intense.
So I would start with equalising downtime, but keep an eye of adjusting one way or another if required.
Importantly, the disgruntled parties now required to step up and do more are also gaining something, as the article notes. Learning to take care of yourself and others by doing laundry, cooking, cleaning, making calls, planning, or whatever is worthwhile. But that gain isn't necessarily noticed or appreciated (at least initially and regardless of context, whether home or work) by the folks suddenly forced to step up and do their part.
I would actually push back a little on what the article says about the men also gaining something. I mean, look, I get that patriarchy is also bad for men etc. etc. but it seems deceptive to me to claim that an unequal distribution of labour isn't just a net gain for the person doing less. You can make a case for infantilisation but the reality is - I know how to do laundry, how to clean, and how to do laundry and if I just didn't have to do it that would just be better for me. I make a choice that I don't want to fall into a pattern where my wife does the majority of it but I'm not ironing shirts thinking, "gosh, I fucking love this, tell you what, this is really its own reward".
My guess is you're not married.
Not the original commenter, but I sure am and I agree with them. Once there are children, the level of co-ordination and consent increases of course. That's because if I'm out in the evening I'm not just saying "I am not present" but "you will have to do 100% of all childcare at this time". We have a loose understanding that once a week each of us can have a night out with friends and the other will do all childcare (and one night we go out together without baby and her parents will baby-sit) and I wouldn't just commit to three nights in a row of dinners with my friends without consultation and agreeing what I would do to make up for this additional labour but in principle I am very able to just put something in our shared calendar without discussing that.
I also note that in many married couples, women are not just permitted but encouraged to manage the entire calendar unilaterally. So many men will find on a Friday night that Saturday afternoon the family as a whole will be going to a picnic / bbq / lunch whatever at some family member's house and it is considered socially permissible for a wife to agree to this on behalf of the family and she is held socially accountable for planning these get togethers to the point where her mother / sister in-law will contact her over their own blood relative to arrange the whole thing. This is by no means limited to decades ago small towns either...
Admittedly, I did once schedule an entire month where I would be sailing with family and only told my wife about it rather than asking whether that was ok. (pre-children, that would be outrageous with kids). So I might have a slightly extreme view on appropriate level of schedule autonomy.
posted by atrazine at 4:10 AM on August 20, 2022
I think this is a good starting point. However it is worth applying a sort of... emotional intensity(?) modifier to those hours. In some cases, and recognising that all autistic children are different and I don't know your circumstances but this might be one, caring responsibilities are intensely draining in a way that might not be captured by you both "working" an equal day before you come home. On the other hand, some children at some stages of life are not so intense to deal with and obviously while children are at school and other activities is a sort of down-time. Also, some jobs are extremely intense.
So I would start with equalising downtime, but keep an eye of adjusting one way or another if required.
Importantly, the disgruntled parties now required to step up and do more are also gaining something, as the article notes. Learning to take care of yourself and others by doing laundry, cooking, cleaning, making calls, planning, or whatever is worthwhile. But that gain isn't necessarily noticed or appreciated (at least initially and regardless of context, whether home or work) by the folks suddenly forced to step up and do their part.
I would actually push back a little on what the article says about the men also gaining something. I mean, look, I get that patriarchy is also bad for men etc. etc. but it seems deceptive to me to claim that an unequal distribution of labour isn't just a net gain for the person doing less. You can make a case for infantilisation but the reality is - I know how to do laundry, how to clean, and how to do laundry and if I just didn't have to do it that would just be better for me. I make a choice that I don't want to fall into a pattern where my wife does the majority of it but I'm not ironing shirts thinking, "gosh, I fucking love this, tell you what, this is really its own reward".
My guess is you're not married.
Not the original commenter, but I sure am and I agree with them. Once there are children, the level of co-ordination and consent increases of course. That's because if I'm out in the evening I'm not just saying "I am not present" but "you will have to do 100% of all childcare at this time". We have a loose understanding that once a week each of us can have a night out with friends and the other will do all childcare (and one night we go out together without baby and her parents will baby-sit) and I wouldn't just commit to three nights in a row of dinners with my friends without consultation and agreeing what I would do to make up for this additional labour but in principle I am very able to just put something in our shared calendar without discussing that.
I also note that in many married couples, women are not just permitted but encouraged to manage the entire calendar unilaterally. So many men will find on a Friday night that Saturday afternoon the family as a whole will be going to a picnic / bbq / lunch whatever at some family member's house and it is considered socially permissible for a wife to agree to this on behalf of the family and she is held socially accountable for planning these get togethers to the point where her mother / sister in-law will contact her over their own blood relative to arrange the whole thing. This is by no means limited to decades ago small towns either...
Admittedly, I did once schedule an entire month where I would be sailing with family and only told my wife about it rather than asking whether that was ok. (pre-children, that would be outrageous with kids). So I might have a slightly extreme view on appropriate level of schedule autonomy.
posted by atrazine at 4:10 AM on August 20, 2022
One option would be to try to make the amount of downtime and sleep you each have be even or fair. Kind of approaching the problem from the other end.
I can tell you that this is one way time-use researchers try to get at equity in unpaid and paid labour: How much time does each person get for leisure. Note, however, that a person who chooses to work more than they have to (For pay or not), looks hard-done by according to this method and it's not obvious that that view would be accurate.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:47 AM on August 21, 2022
I can tell you that this is one way time-use researchers try to get at equity in unpaid and paid labour: How much time does each person get for leisure. Note, however, that a person who chooses to work more than they have to (For pay or not), looks hard-done by according to this method and it's not obvious that that view would be accurate.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:47 AM on August 21, 2022
I don't remember where I read this but, supposedly, when Russia opened up medical schools and there were a lot women doctors, pay and status for doctors fell. In the US, I notice anecdotally that male nurses get promotions and respect pretty fast, would not mind if someone had actual data on that.
Male tasks tend to have more authority and better pay. Supervisor - male, admiral - male, housekeeper - female, CEO - male, Entry level males go into building, with good pay. Entry level females go into retail and service jobs, etc. School or hospital custodian is often a union position with good pay and benefits and at least in schools is typically male. You can get a lot more detailed in how you describe it, but status, authority and pay go to men.
Yeah, 30 years ago when my ex-husband changed the baby someplace public, he got oohs and ahhs of delight. I did the emotional labor and was the default parent; he took our kid and friends to the beach, brought them home sunburned, hungry, thirsty and dirty. Who sorted out the wet towels, fed a bunch of hungry kids, etc.? To be fair, he did 50% of housework and 65% of child care. I paid 65% or more of the bills. I did not ask for child support because he's a deadbeat. No one ever gave me credit for being fair about that; he claimed to pay child support, because he fed our son at his house some of time. I could go on and won't, except that divorce is wildly unfair to moms most of the time.
I occasionally get bitter about the unfairness of being a woman. Watching a friend transitioning to male has certainly held my attention and it's cool to see him flexing the joys of masculinity. We've chatted a bit about testosterone. Nature isn't fair. If humans choose, we could decide to make things fair. Over time, the arc of history does, in fact, bend towards justice; things generally get better. I'm old, female, not wealthy, not partnered. If I am noticed, it's not with much respect for any value I could have.
posted by theora55 at 10:44 AM on August 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
Male tasks tend to have more authority and better pay. Supervisor - male, admiral - male, housekeeper - female, CEO - male, Entry level males go into building, with good pay. Entry level females go into retail and service jobs, etc. School or hospital custodian is often a union position with good pay and benefits and at least in schools is typically male. You can get a lot more detailed in how you describe it, but status, authority and pay go to men.
Yeah, 30 years ago when my ex-husband changed the baby someplace public, he got oohs and ahhs of delight. I did the emotional labor and was the default parent; he took our kid and friends to the beach, brought them home sunburned, hungry, thirsty and dirty. Who sorted out the wet towels, fed a bunch of hungry kids, etc.? To be fair, he did 50% of housework and 65% of child care. I paid 65% or more of the bills. I did not ask for child support because he's a deadbeat. No one ever gave me credit for being fair about that; he claimed to pay child support, because he fed our son at his house some of time. I could go on and won't, except that divorce is wildly unfair to moms most of the time.
I occasionally get bitter about the unfairness of being a woman. Watching a friend transitioning to male has certainly held my attention and it's cool to see him flexing the joys of masculinity. We've chatted a bit about testosterone. Nature isn't fair. If humans choose, we could decide to make things fair. Over time, the arc of history does, in fact, bend towards justice; things generally get better. I'm old, female, not wealthy, not partnered. If I am noticed, it's not with much respect for any value I could have.
posted by theora55 at 10:44 AM on August 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
As Climate Crisis intensifies, the poor will bear the brunt, and so will women and children. Pakistan has has ferocious flooding; men will be more able to emigrate, ideally sending some money home. etc.
When women have illnesses that require care, men are likely to divorce them, or, with dementia, wives live in care homes while men find new partners; I've seen this in people I know, though my stepfather, an old school guy even back in the 80s, diligently cared for his Mom with dementia. When parents need care, it's almost always daughters who provide personal care, who move in to the parental home.
Universal health care would do a lot to help this in the US.
posted by theora55 at 10:51 AM on August 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
When women have illnesses that require care, men are likely to divorce them, or, with dementia, wives live in care homes while men find new partners; I've seen this in people I know, though my stepfather, an old school guy even back in the 80s, diligently cared for his Mom with dementia. When parents need care, it's almost always daughters who provide personal care, who move in to the parental home.
Universal health care would do a lot to help this in the US.
posted by theora55 at 10:51 AM on August 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
In the US, I notice anecdotally that male nurses get promotions and respect pretty fast, would not mind if someone had actual data on that.
I've heard that kind of thing referred to as the glass escalator. Note that in most research on the topic, it is specifically white men (and sometimes only white straight men) who seem to benefit.
posted by plonkee at 6:08 AM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've heard that kind of thing referred to as the glass escalator. Note that in most research on the topic, it is specifically white men (and sometimes only white straight men) who seem to benefit.
posted by plonkee at 6:08 AM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
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One thing that I hate about articles dealing with emotional and domestic labour, is that the solution put forward is always that the group doing more need to also fix this. Like, I get why that is in a practical sense, but it seems to perpetuate the unfairness of the thing. Given that my personal set up doesn't conform to gender stereotypes very strongly, I tend to help with the bigger picture by trying to expect other men I know to just step up to the plate.
posted by plonkee at 1:29 AM on August 19, 2022 [9 favorites]