The Misery of Monochronic Time
October 12, 2022 4:55 AM Subscribe
We have imagined time, at least in Western countries, as subservient to commerce, and attempted to export or forcibly impose that understanding worldwide. And just as there’s nothing “natural” about eating with, say, a fork, there’s nothing natural about the way we’ve organized time. It is ideological, which is to say, it is also political — and a means of imposing a particular type of order on others.
For her Culture Study newsletter, Anne Helen Petersen writes on The Diminishing Returns of Calendar Culture and those who suffer under this approach to time, including folks who have disabilities, those with ADHD, and many more.
Power is why, when Fresh Air asked if I would be on the show, but I’d have to do it at 6 am my time — I said yes, of course, yes. The defense of power is why Christmas is a national American holiday, but the High Holidays and Eid al-Fitr are not. But power is also the ability to label certain uses of time as important, or “better,” and others as evidence of poor moral character or straight-up laziness. You often see this sort of judgment in discussions about being late: it “wastes” others’ time; it’s disrespectful; it’s indicative of a lack of discipline.
... Several attributes and practices valorized by a monochronic understanding of time — which we could also call Rapid-Growth Capitalism time, or Productivity Fetishist time, or White Bourgeois time — are objectively in service of efficiency. And yet, big surprise, they are often highly inefficient. People call too many meetings when they want to feel more in control; those meetings often make you worse at completing whatever task or project you’re struggling to complete, in part because they’re conducted in a mononchronic way, reinscribing systems of authority, obsessed with (inactionable) action plans, and never actually building any sort of consensus about what should be done (or why you are doing it).
Power is why, when Fresh Air asked if I would be on the show, but I’d have to do it at 6 am my time — I said yes, of course, yes. The defense of power is why Christmas is a national American holiday, but the High Holidays and Eid al-Fitr are not. But power is also the ability to label certain uses of time as important, or “better,” and others as evidence of poor moral character or straight-up laziness. You often see this sort of judgment in discussions about being late: it “wastes” others’ time; it’s disrespectful; it’s indicative of a lack of discipline.
... Several attributes and practices valorized by a monochronic understanding of time — which we could also call Rapid-Growth Capitalism time, or Productivity Fetishist time, or White Bourgeois time — are objectively in service of efficiency. And yet, big surprise, they are often highly inefficient. People call too many meetings when they want to feel more in control; those meetings often make you worse at completing whatever task or project you’re struggling to complete, in part because they’re conducted in a mononchronic way, reinscribing systems of authority, obsessed with (inactionable) action plans, and never actually building any sort of consensus about what should be done (or why you are doing it).
Academics not sharing their calendars is absolutely a power thing. As someone who’s been freelancing for years, this is immediately obviously true, though I’ve never really thought about it before.
What I’m doing when, and even just how many hours of the day I’m “busy,” is basically a trade secret. If I look too busy or not busy enough, busy with the wrong mix of kinds of work (are people more or less likely to contract with a Professional who, say, has time blocked out for “drive Uber,” “band practice,” “family time,” or “work at bar”), or busy at what someone thinks are hours that would make it hard for me to meet their scheduling needs, I could lose business or have a harder time negotiating rates.
From my secondhand knowledge of academia, which seems to heavily involve project collaboration by ad hoc agreement (I know I’m oversimplifying), I assume the principles are the same. I’d also absolutely be reticent to put schedule information in an employer-controlled cloud system if I didn’t have to, and if I were a public university employee I’d be very squeamish about my schedule becoming subject to open records laws.
posted by smelendez at 6:00 AM on October 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
What I’m doing when, and even just how many hours of the day I’m “busy,” is basically a trade secret. If I look too busy or not busy enough, busy with the wrong mix of kinds of work (are people more or less likely to contract with a Professional who, say, has time blocked out for “drive Uber,” “band practice,” “family time,” or “work at bar”), or busy at what someone thinks are hours that would make it hard for me to meet their scheduling needs, I could lose business or have a harder time negotiating rates.
From my secondhand knowledge of academia, which seems to heavily involve project collaboration by ad hoc agreement (I know I’m oversimplifying), I assume the principles are the same. I’d also absolutely be reticent to put schedule information in an employer-controlled cloud system if I didn’t have to, and if I were a public university employee I’d be very squeamish about my schedule becoming subject to open records laws.
posted by smelendez at 6:00 AM on October 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
She understands it. She talks about how resisting monochronic time can be a good thing when welling up from below, but also a power move when used by those with power: "But exercising your power this way doesn’t change the way things are. It doesn’t slow down the change you’re resisting. It just makes more work for those without the same privileges as you — whether because they’re contingent faculty, tenture-track, staff, students, or anyone else who can’t get away with behaving with the cultural impunity afforded white men."
Constant lateness is not a power move when it's caused by having to take unreliable public transportation. It IS a power move when you just don't give a shit. I think she designates those two streams very well in the article.
posted by rikschell at 6:00 AM on October 12, 2022 [44 favorites]
Constant lateness is not a power move when it's caused by having to take unreliable public transportation. It IS a power move when you just don't give a shit. I think she designates those two streams very well in the article.
posted by rikschell at 6:00 AM on October 12, 2022 [44 favorites]
Really wonderful article, thank you for posting it Bella Donna. A lot of excellent food for thought here.
I also really enjoyed the article the author linked towards the end of the piece, On Small Seasons and Long Calendars.
For as much as the author talks about power, they seem unable to grasp right here in this sentence that constant lateness is also a power move on the part of those who engage in it.
Mmm, not so sure about this take. I think the author would probably agree with you that, within the monochronic understanding of time as they define it in the piece, lateness can indeed be wielded as a power move.
But I think the point of the piece that you might be missing a bit here is that the author is taking issue with the entire monochronic framework as bedrock assumption, and questioning that framework entirely.
On preview, rikschell nailed it, yep.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:03 AM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
I also really enjoyed the article the author linked towards the end of the piece, On Small Seasons and Long Calendars.
For as much as the author talks about power, they seem unable to grasp right here in this sentence that constant lateness is also a power move on the part of those who engage in it.
Mmm, not so sure about this take. I think the author would probably agree with you that, within the monochronic understanding of time as they define it in the piece, lateness can indeed be wielded as a power move.
But I think the point of the piece that you might be missing a bit here is that the author is taking issue with the entire monochronic framework as bedrock assumption, and questioning that framework entirely.
On preview, rikschell nailed it, yep.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:03 AM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Found this part very interesting to consider as well:
posted by lazaruslong at 6:10 AM on October 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
Same with fridges organized by color, Instagrams of Kon Mari’d sweater drawers, very public and very large and very complicated family calendars, and what Virginia Sole-Smith calls “organization as a hobby,” all of which may have some utility within the home, but their larger utility is to document, publicize, and thereby render valuable labor to those observing outside the home.In retrospect it seems like such an obvious insight, but yeah! I can definitely see how layering the organizational structures of valued-work onto work that is traditionally devalued could be a strategy to render that work more "valuable" by way of performing those organizational structures for external audiences.
These public displays of organization are a way of placing devalued work — domestic work, but specifically domestic work performed by mothers — within the monochronic, capitalist, productivity-minded schema. The more you have to organize, the more formidable that labor (and that accomplishment) becomes.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:10 AM on October 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
What the monochronic understanding of time isn’t built to understand:
Any labor that is considered “natural” and thus not paid; any labor that is not paid and thus not valuable
Work that feminized, invisibilized, and/or associated with the private sphere
Anyone with ADHD
Any task that resists optimization (see especially: creativity)
Any interaction that suffers when bound by time
How long it actually takes to have a meaningful, meandering conversation
The importance of meaningful, meandering conversation
The importance of short, less meaningful, but sustaining conversations
Disability, aging, chronic illness
Babies, just generally
Grief, just generally
Feelings, just generally
Rest, just generally
Long-term thinking
Consensus-building
The last two especially i feel keenly in someone doing project management in my sector, but also in the point about invisible labour. So much of development work, within the realm dictated by project-based funding is held hostage by results framework populated by quantifiable indicators. The narrative talks about consensus-building for example, but meetings and meetups are merely 'activities', that better feed into outputs that can be measured within the lifespan of the project that you can hang an outcome on. Anything beyond that gets a wistful treatment under the "sustainability" criteria when evaluated/at post-mortem.
And when you do this kind of work in non-western contexts, the different understandings of time will very much collide.
posted by cendawanita at 6:11 AM on October 12, 2022 [25 favorites]
Any labor that is considered “natural” and thus not paid; any labor that is not paid and thus not valuable
Work that feminized, invisibilized, and/or associated with the private sphere
Anyone with ADHD
Any task that resists optimization (see especially: creativity)
Any interaction that suffers when bound by time
How long it actually takes to have a meaningful, meandering conversation
The importance of meaningful, meandering conversation
The importance of short, less meaningful, but sustaining conversations
Disability, aging, chronic illness
Babies, just generally
Grief, just generally
Feelings, just generally
Rest, just generally
Long-term thinking
Consensus-building
The last two especially i feel keenly in someone doing project management in my sector, but also in the point about invisible labour. So much of development work, within the realm dictated by project-based funding is held hostage by results framework populated by quantifiable indicators. The narrative talks about consensus-building for example, but meetings and meetups are merely 'activities', that better feed into outputs that can be measured within the lifespan of the project that you can hang an outcome on. Anything beyond that gets a wistful treatment under the "sustainability" criteria when evaluated/at post-mortem.
And when you do this kind of work in non-western contexts, the different understandings of time will very much collide.
posted by cendawanita at 6:11 AM on October 12, 2022 [25 favorites]
The idea of a "30 Day No Chocolate Challenge" planner pissed me off more than anything else. It's a crossover between something that I absolutely hate about both diet culture and planner culture: pissing down my leg and telling me it's raining. Telling me this kind of thing is normal, healthy, and fun.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:13 AM on October 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 6:13 AM on October 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
Monochronic cultures may be more “efficient” in their use of time, but in their treatment of time as a commodity, they lose the richness that comes with allowing tasks, conversations, and interactions to move forward at a more natural and sustainable pace.
A couple of thoughts here: it places I've worked that did not log 'billable hours', most people engineer polychronic time into their day: tasks get done, but so does a lot of chatting with the person the next station over, or walks to the cafeteria for a cup of coffee, if you are not constrained by a set break schedule. Most people, I've observed, work within monochronic time to the least acceptable degree, and carve out the softer uses of time within those hard boundaries.
Many years ago, I moved from the east coast to a town in the Navajo Nation. The sense of 'time' (or more specifically adherence to monochronic time) there was radically different. One example - I was informed that Navajo community / culture values letting one speak until they are empty. Interrupting is rarely done. And I felt an incredible sense of anxiety and frustration at first, coming from a place where talking over another person or interjecting with your immediate take was the norm. Listening was more important than talking.
And a similar understanding of time permeates the small-scale farming community: you work quickly and efficiently, but things take as long as they take. Groundhogs eat through irrigation lines and they need to be replaced. You have a heavy rain one night, and moving equipment over muddy field rows is not feasible, so you switch to buckets. Seeders clog and you stop as often as you need to break down, clean, and adjust the settings.
Anyone working directly with "nature" - be it crops or livestock or children - understand that efficiency COMES from the work of building and sustaining consistent relationships, of spending the time needed to really know your field/equipment/charges; being able to work patiently and with care with what shows up to you that morning. If you are not flexible to and attentive to the challenge of the moment, you will magnify that woe in the very short term. And yes, as others have noted, people who have "mastered" 'efficiency' have done so only because other people - usually lots of other people - are picking up the slack of dealing with all of the other messy parts of life that do NOT neatly adhere to monochronic time.
(are people more or less likely to contract with a Professional who, say, has time blocked out for “drive Uber,” “band practice,” “family time,” or “work at bar”)
Agreed. I use code words on my calendar. "Transcribe" = yoga. "Willow," "Quarterlies," "1:1," "tech review" designate other parts of my life that are non-negotiable and also not anyone else's business.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:58 AM on October 12, 2022 [36 favorites]
A couple of thoughts here: it places I've worked that did not log 'billable hours', most people engineer polychronic time into their day: tasks get done, but so does a lot of chatting with the person the next station over, or walks to the cafeteria for a cup of coffee, if you are not constrained by a set break schedule. Most people, I've observed, work within monochronic time to the least acceptable degree, and carve out the softer uses of time within those hard boundaries.
Many years ago, I moved from the east coast to a town in the Navajo Nation. The sense of 'time' (or more specifically adherence to monochronic time) there was radically different. One example - I was informed that Navajo community / culture values letting one speak until they are empty. Interrupting is rarely done. And I felt an incredible sense of anxiety and frustration at first, coming from a place where talking over another person or interjecting with your immediate take was the norm. Listening was more important than talking.
And a similar understanding of time permeates the small-scale farming community: you work quickly and efficiently, but things take as long as they take. Groundhogs eat through irrigation lines and they need to be replaced. You have a heavy rain one night, and moving equipment over muddy field rows is not feasible, so you switch to buckets. Seeders clog and you stop as often as you need to break down, clean, and adjust the settings.
Anyone working directly with "nature" - be it crops or livestock or children - understand that efficiency COMES from the work of building and sustaining consistent relationships, of spending the time needed to really know your field/equipment/charges; being able to work patiently and with care with what shows up to you that morning. If you are not flexible to and attentive to the challenge of the moment, you will magnify that woe in the very short term. And yes, as others have noted, people who have "mastered" 'efficiency' have done so only because other people - usually lots of other people - are picking up the slack of dealing with all of the other messy parts of life that do NOT neatly adhere to monochronic time.
(are people more or less likely to contract with a Professional who, say, has time blocked out for “drive Uber,” “band practice,” “family time,” or “work at bar”)
Agreed. I use code words on my calendar. "Transcribe" = yoga. "Willow," "Quarterlies," "1:1," "tech review" designate other parts of my life that are non-negotiable and also not anyone else's business.
posted by Silvery Fish at 6:58 AM on October 12, 2022 [36 favorites]
It's exactly the same kind of shit as people high up in hierarchies who save themselves time and effort by refusing to conform to the norms everyone else conforms to, which only "works" because someone else is being forced to pick up the slack to deal with it.
I did a big group project a while ago with someone who... got the idea of collaboration but not any of the particulars. He would send out a new version of the draft of the work and ask if anyone had any comments on his changes. If not, we will keep these in the final version.
What changes were these? Well, that is hard to say. The word count had gone from 19,374 words to 19,388, so somewhere in the document there were fourteen more words. Had he added a sentence? Did he unilaterally break down compound words up into freestanding components? Had he added bits to several sentences? Had he taken out 42 words and added 56 somewhere else, four here and six there? Who’s to say? The changes were never indicated in any way.
So he would do ninety seconds of work and expect others to invest a couple of hours of their time to search out what he had done. And if he was called on it, he would whine that others were not holding up their end, too lazy to even give him feedback on his additional material.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:21 AM on October 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
I did a big group project a while ago with someone who... got the idea of collaboration but not any of the particulars. He would send out a new version of the draft of the work and ask if anyone had any comments on his changes. If not, we will keep these in the final version.
What changes were these? Well, that is hard to say. The word count had gone from 19,374 words to 19,388, so somewhere in the document there were fourteen more words. Had he added a sentence? Did he unilaterally break down compound words up into freestanding components? Had he added bits to several sentences? Had he taken out 42 words and added 56 somewhere else, four here and six there? Who’s to say? The changes were never indicated in any way.
So he would do ninety seconds of work and expect others to invest a couple of hours of their time to search out what he had done. And if he was called on it, he would whine that others were not holding up their end, too lazy to even give him feedback on his additional material.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:21 AM on October 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
One of the things Petersen lists as valorized by this approach to time is "Neurodivergence, but only if it leads to intense focus." I appreciate what she means--this approach to time totally does valorize people who can fully and intensely focus on whatever it is they're supposed to be doing--but I have to laugh because I am so prone to hyperfocus right past the boundaries of my own schedule. If I have a meeting at 1pm and a problem I'm trying to solve isn't relenting to the various fixes I'm trying to apply, it's really difficult to make myself drop it and refocus on getting to the meeting at a reasonable time. It's possible to do but it takes a ton of mental effort and it's a wrench.
So I should note: this approach to time sure does value intense focus, but only if you can turn it off and direct it correctly. Intense focus is one of the biggest reasons I'm often late: I find it really hard to interrupt myself on something that isn't done but that I could maybe untangle if I just tried this other thing--and then I look up and I'm late, again. Dammit.
Being allowed to let things take as long as they take sounds like a beautiful dream, and of course probably an unachievable one: students need things, much of my work is reliant on other people, we use monochronic time to coordinate large numbers of people to execute complicated systems. There's a reason that this approach to time is so hegemonic, and it's not purely about control; but oh, oh, oh, imagining enough flexibility to allow for rotations in and out of monochronic time without failing to support one another is such a lovely image.
posted by sciatrix at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
So I should note: this approach to time sure does value intense focus, but only if you can turn it off and direct it correctly. Intense focus is one of the biggest reasons I'm often late: I find it really hard to interrupt myself on something that isn't done but that I could maybe untangle if I just tried this other thing--and then I look up and I'm late, again. Dammit.
Being allowed to let things take as long as they take sounds like a beautiful dream, and of course probably an unachievable one: students need things, much of my work is reliant on other people, we use monochronic time to coordinate large numbers of people to execute complicated systems. There's a reason that this approach to time is so hegemonic, and it's not purely about control; but oh, oh, oh, imagining enough flexibility to allow for rotations in and out of monochronic time without failing to support one another is such a lovely image.
posted by sciatrix at 7:23 AM on October 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
> And just as there’s nothing “natural” about eating with, say, a fork, there’s nothing natural about the way we’ve organized time. It is ideological, which is to say, it is also political — and a means of imposing a particular type of order on others.
I understand alternatives to forks - chopsticks, spoons, fingers, sipping from a bowl. I don't think I understand the alternative to time zones and calendars. If me and my siblings take turns caring for our aging mom, how do we make sure someone is always available to watch her, if we don't have a shared language for understanding dates and times? What is the polychronic way of making sure *someone* can watch Mom tomorrow, or next week?
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:32 AM on October 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
I understand alternatives to forks - chopsticks, spoons, fingers, sipping from a bowl. I don't think I understand the alternative to time zones and calendars. If me and my siblings take turns caring for our aging mom, how do we make sure someone is always available to watch her, if we don't have a shared language for understanding dates and times? What is the polychronic way of making sure *someone* can watch Mom tomorrow, or next week?
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:32 AM on October 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
I do find this sort of article intensely frustrating, because I have a specific problem I want a solution to. I can only make things of value in a work environment. Off the clock, my creative endeavours are nothing but ideas - not even draft versions, usually. The efficiency culture they're railing against does not really help me solve this, but their preferred world would absolutely be worse for me by obliterating the work culture that does actually enable me to feel like I'm adding something of value to the world.
It is intensely frustrating, but at least I pick good employers.
posted by Merus at 7:38 AM on October 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
It is intensely frustrating, but at least I pick good employers.
posted by Merus at 7:38 AM on October 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
What is the polychronic way of making sure *someone* can watch Mom tomorrow, or next week?
One person stays until the next person comes along, or calls around to see who can come next, aided by multi-gen families.
My husband grew up in a family where his grandparents lived in the home, his mum worked shift work (nursing) and his father built houses (contractor/investor). His attitude to time is radically different from mine, because in his home there were generally adults around and work wasn't on a 9-5 schedule. When his mum was working her shifts, sometimes night shifts, his dad picked up any slack and when his mum was home his dad worked very long days, plus the grandparents could make dinner or whatever.
I only really got the sense of it when everything shut down for the pandemic - we all had things we had to do via Zoom etc. but suddenly we didn't have to be anywhere, or when we did it was exceptional rather than the norm. I really enjoyed that time.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:40 AM on October 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
One person stays until the next person comes along, or calls around to see who can come next, aided by multi-gen families.
My husband grew up in a family where his grandparents lived in the home, his mum worked shift work (nursing) and his father built houses (contractor/investor). His attitude to time is radically different from mine, because in his home there were generally adults around and work wasn't on a 9-5 schedule. When his mum was working her shifts, sometimes night shifts, his dad picked up any slack and when his mum was home his dad worked very long days, plus the grandparents could make dinner or whatever.
I only really got the sense of it when everything shut down for the pandemic - we all had things we had to do via Zoom etc. but suddenly we didn't have to be anywhere, or when we did it was exceptional rather than the norm. I really enjoyed that time.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:40 AM on October 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
I work in a highly unstructured way, both because I find it more satisfying and human, as well as because it’s an attempt to bait myself into enough of a hyperfocus that I produce something I and others value. As a company man I do, of course, have the typical “calendar” peppered with — and occasionally slathered with — meetings that don’t need to be there, fictional delivery dates, the flexing of hierarchy, needless rigidity and structure in service of metrics and tracking and a terrifically false definition of efficiency. I show up to some, if I can help make them useful. I disregard others when they don’t serve my, my team’s, my employer’s actual goals.
In the morning, one of the habits I’ve been trying to build is pasting unstructured time defensively all over my semi-public calendar. That and attempting to decline as many meetings as I can without inflicting suffering on others. I look at this as providing a common Flatworld interface, a high level abstraction to the multidimensional structure of my time and attention, for the convenience of people I care about.
Don’t needlessly schedule me into shit. Don’t create recurring demands on the structure of my attention, as though reserving capacity in your access to me. Come and get me if you need me, I’ll help you. Hopefully a lot.
Imposing this manner of working, these interfaces, this rejection of I dunno, Protestant work ethic or whatever drives that, in favor of being able to be actually effective at things is a massive glaring privilege that has taken me an entire career to carve out and I am going to ride that privilege hard. At the end of last year I pretty much decided: “Okay, I probably don’t have what it takes to actually make Fellow in this world, with all the politics and conformity that implies, so I’ll just… work that way without the title.”
I guess I seized power?
posted by majick at 7:42 AM on October 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
In the morning, one of the habits I’ve been trying to build is pasting unstructured time defensively all over my semi-public calendar. That and attempting to decline as many meetings as I can without inflicting suffering on others. I look at this as providing a common Flatworld interface, a high level abstraction to the multidimensional structure of my time and attention, for the convenience of people I care about.
Don’t needlessly schedule me into shit. Don’t create recurring demands on the structure of my attention, as though reserving capacity in your access to me. Come and get me if you need me, I’ll help you. Hopefully a lot.
Imposing this manner of working, these interfaces, this rejection of I dunno, Protestant work ethic or whatever drives that, in favor of being able to be actually effective at things is a massive glaring privilege that has taken me an entire career to carve out and I am going to ride that privilege hard. At the end of last year I pretty much decided: “Okay, I probably don’t have what it takes to actually make Fellow in this world, with all the politics and conformity that implies, so I’ll just… work that way without the title.”
I guess I seized power?
posted by majick at 7:42 AM on October 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
I blame Ben Franklin.
posted by zoinks at 8:25 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by zoinks at 8:25 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm an outlier here. Time matters.
Concerts start when they start. I don't want to miss parts of them. I try to avoid putting myself in situations where others with a different time sense can cause me to miss what I love.
I play tennis with a group. If we don't all show up at the same time none of us have fun.
I would like the trains and planes to arrive so that I don't stand about waiting.
People who show up later than they agreed to are basically stealing from me.
posted by cccorlew at 8:34 AM on October 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
Concerts start when they start. I don't want to miss parts of them. I try to avoid putting myself in situations where others with a different time sense can cause me to miss what I love.
I play tennis with a group. If we don't all show up at the same time none of us have fun.
I would like the trains and planes to arrive so that I don't stand about waiting.
People who show up later than they agreed to are basically stealing from me.
posted by cccorlew at 8:34 AM on October 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
Being allowed to let things take as long as they take sounds like a beautiful dream, and of course probably an unachievable one: students need things, much of my work is reliant on other people, we use monochronic time to coordinate large numbers of people to execute complicated systems.
At the same time, it's possible to execute complicated tasks without making the timelines so goddamn tight.
I'm partway through reading Peter Robison's Flying Blind, a book on how changes in Boeing's culture contributed to the 737 Max tragedy. One of the things that I found fascinating is that earlier in Boeing's history, their aircraft development process was much more focused on quality and less on hitting deadlines. There were multiple anecdotes where the engineering team decided they needed an extra six months and $20 million in order to solve a problem, and management just said "ok, we trust you".
How were they able to do that? There was more slack and tolerance for problems in the development process. The product release was pushed back; the airlines who were early customers would fly their existing planes a bit longer, or delay opening new routes. The airline routes were all regulated by the government, including prices, so they could coordinate at a larger level to manage the delay. I'm sure no one was happy about it, but it was managed.
Later in Boeing's history (per the book), they focused much more on reducing costs, and also boosted executive compensation and profits returned to shareholders. That removed the slack from the system. Engineering didn't have the same latitude to focus on quality at all costs, and that reflected itself in the safety of the airplanes they developed.
The connection here is that it is possible to build complicated systems without making the schedule the top priority. But you have to build slack into the system to begin with, and have the resources available to deal with the unexpected. I tend to think that an environment which is obsessed with timelines, is also one which is operating really close to the margins of its resources.
(It's tempting to say "the root cause is capitalism" at this point, and that's certainly the case in the Boeing example. But I suspect that the same symptoms will show up in any case where resources are highly constrained, because delays will still cause problems for anyone dependent on earlier parts of a process.)
posted by learning from frequent failure at 8:44 AM on October 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
At the same time, it's possible to execute complicated tasks without making the timelines so goddamn tight.
I'm partway through reading Peter Robison's Flying Blind, a book on how changes in Boeing's culture contributed to the 737 Max tragedy. One of the things that I found fascinating is that earlier in Boeing's history, their aircraft development process was much more focused on quality and less on hitting deadlines. There were multiple anecdotes where the engineering team decided they needed an extra six months and $20 million in order to solve a problem, and management just said "ok, we trust you".
How were they able to do that? There was more slack and tolerance for problems in the development process. The product release was pushed back; the airlines who were early customers would fly their existing planes a bit longer, or delay opening new routes. The airline routes were all regulated by the government, including prices, so they could coordinate at a larger level to manage the delay. I'm sure no one was happy about it, but it was managed.
Later in Boeing's history (per the book), they focused much more on reducing costs, and also boosted executive compensation and profits returned to shareholders. That removed the slack from the system. Engineering didn't have the same latitude to focus on quality at all costs, and that reflected itself in the safety of the airplanes they developed.
The connection here is that it is possible to build complicated systems without making the schedule the top priority. But you have to build slack into the system to begin with, and have the resources available to deal with the unexpected. I tend to think that an environment which is obsessed with timelines, is also one which is operating really close to the margins of its resources.
(It's tempting to say "the root cause is capitalism" at this point, and that's certainly the case in the Boeing example. But I suspect that the same symptoms will show up in any case where resources are highly constrained, because delays will still cause problems for anyone dependent on earlier parts of a process.)
posted by learning from frequent failure at 8:44 AM on October 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
What is the polychronic way of making sure *someone* can watch Mom tomorrow, or next week?
The base problem is that nobody wants to do it.
If Mom were welcome and desired she'd be living in a household where the issue would never come up - one son would take his sewing into Mom's room and sit with her while he stitched, the daughter and law would wander in and get into a conversation with her and the son would wander off. Her younger sister would interrupt that conversation to announce that she had made food and would Mom like to come into the dining room to eat, or have some brought into her, the teenaged grandson would wheedle Mom to go out on the porch with him and they eat together. Everyone going in to Mom would do so because they had the personal urge to do it wanting her company, not because they were getting the stink eye from other fed up family members.
When you have to schedule things it's because you are dropping other things that you would really prefer to be doing in order to oblige other people: your Mom, your boss, your coworkers, your clients, your siblings, your pressing personal concerns, you bills. You know you are falling in love with someone, or bonding with a baby when you keep wanting to go to them and are reluctant to leave them and chuckle and smile and relax in their presence. How many of you feel that way when you go to work, or go to watch Mom?
Any system where you don't have as least as much down time as you have responsibility time is exploitative. But of course we ended up in these situations, deeper with ever decade/century/millennium as we staggered ever deeper into new crises. Every layer of complexity finding food, finding money, doing our community duties so we are all safe and not suffering has tied us to more and more soul-crushing routines. We have been reliant on others and thus over burdened them from the moment we were born. The family scenario I described is a fantasy that might perhaps have last been generally available during the paleolithic to tribes that practiced infanticide and probably not even then.
What's fascinating is how much more over scheduled things have gotten in my lifetime. I'm sure a lot of that is because I was born to high privilege, but it's the people who used to have those privileges who now are inflicting crushing schedules on themselves and the people around them, I think to try to slow the slipping away of the privileges they used to have, or that their parents had.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:47 AM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
The base problem is that nobody wants to do it.
If Mom were welcome and desired she'd be living in a household where the issue would never come up - one son would take his sewing into Mom's room and sit with her while he stitched, the daughter and law would wander in and get into a conversation with her and the son would wander off. Her younger sister would interrupt that conversation to announce that she had made food and would Mom like to come into the dining room to eat, or have some brought into her, the teenaged grandson would wheedle Mom to go out on the porch with him and they eat together. Everyone going in to Mom would do so because they had the personal urge to do it wanting her company, not because they were getting the stink eye from other fed up family members.
When you have to schedule things it's because you are dropping other things that you would really prefer to be doing in order to oblige other people: your Mom, your boss, your coworkers, your clients, your siblings, your pressing personal concerns, you bills. You know you are falling in love with someone, or bonding with a baby when you keep wanting to go to them and are reluctant to leave them and chuckle and smile and relax in their presence. How many of you feel that way when you go to work, or go to watch Mom?
Any system where you don't have as least as much down time as you have responsibility time is exploitative. But of course we ended up in these situations, deeper with ever decade/century/millennium as we staggered ever deeper into new crises. Every layer of complexity finding food, finding money, doing our community duties so we are all safe and not suffering has tied us to more and more soul-crushing routines. We have been reliant on others and thus over burdened them from the moment we were born. The family scenario I described is a fantasy that might perhaps have last been generally available during the paleolithic to tribes that practiced infanticide and probably not even then.
What's fascinating is how much more over scheduled things have gotten in my lifetime. I'm sure a lot of that is because I was born to high privilege, but it's the people who used to have those privileges who now are inflicting crushing schedules on themselves and the people around them, I think to try to slow the slipping away of the privileges they used to have, or that their parents had.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:47 AM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
You know you are falling in love with someone, or bonding with a baby when you keep wanting to go to them and are reluctant to leave them and chuckle and smile and relax in their presence. How many of you feel that way when you go to work, or go to watch Mom?
As someone with two kids, plenty of activities with small babies suck and you're not a bad person or a slave to time or capitalism because you don't want to spend time doing them. Same with taking care of an elderly relative. Literally, sometimes you need to go to the bathroom - and time becomes really constrained when you don't want to piss on yourself.
I always find stuff like this to be necessarily reductive - like every meeting I attend is getting in the way of my 'real' job - but it doesn't work like that. And a fork rules, it's not random or arbitrary.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:53 AM on October 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
As someone with two kids, plenty of activities with small babies suck and you're not a bad person or a slave to time or capitalism because you don't want to spend time doing them. Same with taking care of an elderly relative. Literally, sometimes you need to go to the bathroom - and time becomes really constrained when you don't want to piss on yourself.
I always find stuff like this to be necessarily reductive - like every meeting I attend is getting in the way of my 'real' job - but it doesn't work like that. And a fork rules, it's not random or arbitrary.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:53 AM on October 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
If Mom were welcome and desired she'd be living in a household where the issue would never come up -
Look, no one wants to get out of bed to clean up vomit or shit at 3 a.m. A lot of caregiving is just hard, crappy (literally) work that will not get done spontaneously or with a song in anyone's heart. What is perceived as spontaneous or "getting done somehow" is usually dependent on the unrecognized extra labor of one or more people.
The issue comes up.
posted by praemunire at 8:57 AM on October 12, 2022 [50 favorites]
Look, no one wants to get out of bed to clean up vomit or shit at 3 a.m. A lot of caregiving is just hard, crappy (literally) work that will not get done spontaneously or with a song in anyone's heart. What is perceived as spontaneous or "getting done somehow" is usually dependent on the unrecognized extra labor of one or more people.
The issue comes up.
posted by praemunire at 8:57 AM on October 12, 2022 [50 favorites]
The connection here is that it is possible to build complicated systems without making the schedule the top priority. But you have to build slack into the system to begin with,
the word that comes to mine is contingency. Way back when in film school, I was taught that when budgeting a production, I should always include a 10-percent contingency. That is, given the amount of "moving parts" in a production, it was best to just assume that something unforeseen would come up along the way. And if it didn't (it almost always did), that meant you could throw a killer wrap party.
Lately, watching how Covid hit my region's healthcare system, it became all too obvious that various managers and number crunchers had, over the years, not included enough contingency in their projections. They may have maximized everyday normal functionality but come an unforeseen emergency (which is bullshit -- the whole point of healthcare is nobody ever knows for sure what's going to happen), well, things fell apart, people died who shouldn't have ...
posted by philip-random at 8:59 AM on October 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
Yeah, I've got thoughts about this piece, because the longer I think about it, the lazier it seems.
Has there ever been a time in humanity's history when time didn't matter? Hunters have to hunt when the game is huntable, or the tribe starves. Gatherers have to gather when the food is there, or the tribe starves. Lets make life (arguably) easier by planting crops, but then there's the timetable of the seasons -- Mayans made calendars, Stonehenge is a timepiece. Lets industrialize food/energy production but that requires shifts of workers to keep things going all the time to free people up to do other essential things and on and on....
As our cultures have evolved, we've tweaked and adjusted time to suit our needs and demands. Artists and painters work in different time than air-traffic controllers, and labor has fought for 40 hr work weeks, farmers still read the seasons and rush to plant or rush to harvest no matter how many hours a week it takes.
Is there an economic system that doesn't make time a commodity?
In the end this piece is perhaps just a reframing of how we value labor (time/labor= money) and the fact that leisure time is a measure of privilege, but in its laziness it fails to mention the gig economy, the waning prospects of retirement (all free time all the time), or even just the costs of living longer.
It's easy to say we've gone too far with monochronic time, but when was the last time any of us didn't get indignant having to wait beyond their appointment time at the eye doctor, or for a flight that's delayed or any of the things for which a scheduled time is actually helpful and lets them then schedule their free time around it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:10 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Has there ever been a time in humanity's history when time didn't matter? Hunters have to hunt when the game is huntable, or the tribe starves. Gatherers have to gather when the food is there, or the tribe starves. Lets make life (arguably) easier by planting crops, but then there's the timetable of the seasons -- Mayans made calendars, Stonehenge is a timepiece. Lets industrialize food/energy production but that requires shifts of workers to keep things going all the time to free people up to do other essential things and on and on....
As our cultures have evolved, we've tweaked and adjusted time to suit our needs and demands. Artists and painters work in different time than air-traffic controllers, and labor has fought for 40 hr work weeks, farmers still read the seasons and rush to plant or rush to harvest no matter how many hours a week it takes.
Is there an economic system that doesn't make time a commodity?
In the end this piece is perhaps just a reframing of how we value labor (time/labor= money) and the fact that leisure time is a measure of privilege, but in its laziness it fails to mention the gig economy, the waning prospects of retirement (all free time all the time), or even just the costs of living longer.
It's easy to say we've gone too far with monochronic time, but when was the last time any of us didn't get indignant having to wait beyond their appointment time at the eye doctor, or for a flight that's delayed or any of the things for which a scheduled time is actually helpful and lets them then schedule their free time around it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:10 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Well, it is true that different cultures have organized time differently. Weekends may be the gift of organized labor--thank you, organized labor--but the major Western holidays are survivors of a much more substantial group of Christian "feast days" or similar (some of them taken over from pagan predecessors) where people weren't expected to work. If you really are a primarily agrarian society, between harvest and the next year's planting, you're not "on the clock" in the same way. Historians of the Industrial Revolution write about the challenges businessmen faced coercing the lower classes onto the relentless and largely unvarying schedule of the factories. This is a real historical phenomenon.
But, as so often with Anne Helen Petersen's writing, she's touched on a difficult problem and then writes about it at length just going on vibes, without any kind of rigorous engagement with other approaches to the question. If nothing else, the blunt assertion that "there's nothing natural about the way we organize time" is just...patently, obviously wrong if you know anything about the history of timekeeping! We didn't pick 24 hours in a day, 7 days in a week, etc., on a whim, or to please capitalists.
posted by praemunire at 9:32 AM on October 12, 2022 [29 favorites]
But, as so often with Anne Helen Petersen's writing, she's touched on a difficult problem and then writes about it at length just going on vibes, without any kind of rigorous engagement with other approaches to the question. If nothing else, the blunt assertion that "there's nothing natural about the way we organize time" is just...patently, obviously wrong if you know anything about the history of timekeeping! We didn't pick 24 hours in a day, 7 days in a week, etc., on a whim, or to please capitalists.
posted by praemunire at 9:32 AM on October 12, 2022 [29 favorites]
the word that comes to mine is contingency.
Yep, the 80s and 90s were devoted to feeding the beast with the slack we stripped out of the system. And now we need it and it's not there. Wheeeee.
posted by praemunire at 9:33 AM on October 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Yep, the 80s and 90s were devoted to feeding the beast with the slack we stripped out of the system. And now we need it and it's not there. Wheeeee.
posted by praemunire at 9:33 AM on October 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
(Also, as ever I want to call attention to the most metal of all possible titles for a work of classical scholarship, Time and its Adversaries in the Seleucid Empire.
posted by praemunire at 9:35 AM on October 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
In the aftermath of Alexander the Great’s conquests, his successors, the Seleucid kings, ruled a vast territory stretching from Central Asia and Anatolia to the Persian Gulf. In 305 BCE, in a radical move to impose unity and regulate behavior, Seleucis I introduced a linear conception of time. Time would no longer restart with each new monarch. Instead, progressively numbered years—continuous and irreversible—became the de facto measure of historical duration. This new temporality, propagated throughout the empire and identical to the system we use today, changed how people did business, recorded events, and oriented themselves to the larger world.)
posted by praemunire at 9:35 AM on October 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
I feel like this is very interesting to think about in context with The Tyranny of Structurelessness. Of course the structures of time and lateness reinforce one kind of power. On the other hand the absence of structure or schedules reinforce a different, less visible kind of power.
It can be seen the example of a shared chore or burden. You could have a strict schedule of who is responsible when with fixed accountability for the burden. Or you could have an adhoc system where people contribute as they are available and willing. In my experience the second unstructured system mostly means that the burden falls more heavily on people with less social "power" in the group.
posted by being_quiet at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2022 [26 favorites]
It can be seen the example of a shared chore or burden. You could have a strict schedule of who is responsible when with fixed accountability for the burden. Or you could have an adhoc system where people contribute as they are available and willing. In my experience the second unstructured system mostly means that the burden falls more heavily on people with less social "power" in the group.
posted by being_quiet at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2022 [26 favorites]
I really liked this. Thinking about time and calendars this way feels like when I first learned what symptoms of adult adhd looked like.
"Oh, I've been struggling with this for years..."
From 6th grade onward, I was punished at times for having an empty planner. I count it among the things that turned me off to institutionalized education in general, put me a credit or two away from not graduating HS, and made me certain I'd never, ever, ever, want to go to college.
I just saw this the other day on the flip-side, the absolute flip side...
posted by shenkerism at 9:59 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
"Oh, I've been struggling with this for years..."
From 6th grade onward, I was punished at times for having an empty planner. I count it among the things that turned me off to institutionalized education in general, put me a credit or two away from not graduating HS, and made me certain I'd never, ever, ever, want to go to college.
I just saw this the other day on the flip-side, the absolute flip side...
posted by shenkerism at 9:59 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
praemunire: I took some classes that really made me think about the ancient conception of time, and what mattered or did not matter, what people knew and did not know, in ways that we have taken for granted. I always think of a bit of dialogue in a novel (probably but not necessarily by Pratchett) that really got at that kind of reckoning:
I am also reminded of a tweet I saw the other day: "Everybody wants to live in a laid back Mediterranean culture, nobody wants their repairman to show up 3 days late without any tools, look at the problem, say it’s not a problem, and leave." (Which had just happened to the OP.)
posted by Countess Elena at 10:03 AM on October 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
"I were born the year the old thane died."People had to reckon closely for animal husbandry, weather, and agriculture -- old almanacs will show you that -- but for themselves, it did not matter so much. That made some things possible and foreclosed others.
"What thane?"
"How should I know? I ain't a scholar."
I am also reminded of a tweet I saw the other day: "Everybody wants to live in a laid back Mediterranean culture, nobody wants their repairman to show up 3 days late without any tools, look at the problem, say it’s not a problem, and leave." (Which had just happened to the OP.)
posted by Countess Elena at 10:03 AM on October 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
I have ADHD. I live by my calendar. If something I need or want to do at a certain time isn't on the calendar, I will forget. Even fun things like concerts or meeting with friends. I need to remind myself in some way or another not just to do the things I need to do to survive under capitalism, but also the things I need to do to function as a person and care for myself—taking meds, taking out the trash and recycling, cleaning the apartment, etc. Without structures in place and set times for a lot of this, some of it may get done, but it's likely to not get done until it becomes either impossible not to, or the amount of effort it would take to do it and make up for all the neglect borders on the impossible.
This is one of the many reasons I have neither children or pets. Taking care of myself is enough of a hassle that I wouldn't dare trust myself to be responsible to care for another organism to the point where their life depends on it. As an example, years ago when I lived with my parents, they took a vacation and left me in charge of caring for the cat. They had an automated feeder, so I could forget about making sure the cat had food, but my ADHD ass forgot to fill the cat's water bowl for days, and the poor dehydrated thing got a kidney infection that was, thankfully, treatable.
There's absolutely things that can be said about how we treat time under modern Capitalism, and how those demands affect the neurodivergent. I definitely chafe at the productivity porn around planners and organization over actually getting shit done, but for some of us, some structure and a system we can trust goes a long way to helping us function. If that looks like some elaborate Bullet Journal thing, so be it, as long as it works for that person. I just know that even if we lived in a post-capitalist utopia, I'd still have to keep track of time and the requirements of caring for myself, spending time with people I like, and anything else my brain will lose track of because of its particular configuration of pipes and wires. And if what works best for me is some kind of structured system that looks a bit like how Capitalism imposes structure on the worker, so be it.
posted by SansPoint at 10:35 AM on October 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
This is one of the many reasons I have neither children or pets. Taking care of myself is enough of a hassle that I wouldn't dare trust myself to be responsible to care for another organism to the point where their life depends on it. As an example, years ago when I lived with my parents, they took a vacation and left me in charge of caring for the cat. They had an automated feeder, so I could forget about making sure the cat had food, but my ADHD ass forgot to fill the cat's water bowl for days, and the poor dehydrated thing got a kidney infection that was, thankfully, treatable.
There's absolutely things that can be said about how we treat time under modern Capitalism, and how those demands affect the neurodivergent. I definitely chafe at the productivity porn around planners and organization over actually getting shit done, but for some of us, some structure and a system we can trust goes a long way to helping us function. If that looks like some elaborate Bullet Journal thing, so be it, as long as it works for that person. I just know that even if we lived in a post-capitalist utopia, I'd still have to keep track of time and the requirements of caring for myself, spending time with people I like, and anything else my brain will lose track of because of its particular configuration of pipes and wires. And if what works best for me is some kind of structured system that looks a bit like how Capitalism imposes structure on the worker, so be it.
posted by SansPoint at 10:35 AM on October 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
The asynchronicity of pre-civilized human societies is a big part of what kept them from overexploiting their resources.
When civilizations rose they also fell in due course because they reached the limits of the resources they could get access to.
We are in the historically unique situation of living in a global civilization which is exploiting all available resources everywhere in the world, and when we fall, and the end is in view, it's hard to imagine how the next civilization will come into being.
posted by jamjam at 10:46 AM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
When civilizations rose they also fell in due course because they reached the limits of the resources they could get access to.
We are in the historically unique situation of living in a global civilization which is exploiting all available resources everywhere in the world, and when we fall, and the end is in view, it's hard to imagine how the next civilization will come into being.
posted by jamjam at 10:46 AM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
"You often see this sort of judgment in discussions about being late: it 'wastes' others’ time"
Yes, each society has different approaches to time, but if you violate that framework, then you are breaking an implicit agreement and therefore harming others. If we're in a place where a 6 pm dinner invitation means "between 6:05 and 6:10," and you show up at 7, there will be cold food and/or lonely guests; in a real sense, you wasted their time. If you show up at 6 pm sharp in a culture where a 6 pm invitation means 7 or 7:30, you're imposing on a host who needs to shower and cook. (And if you wait until 9, you're back with cold food.)
If you want to live in a culture where "come over for dinner" means "show up anytime between 4 and 9 and I'll cook when you get here," then you are perfectly free to tell your guests that.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:04 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yes, each society has different approaches to time, but if you violate that framework, then you are breaking an implicit agreement and therefore harming others. If we're in a place where a 6 pm dinner invitation means "between 6:05 and 6:10," and you show up at 7, there will be cold food and/or lonely guests; in a real sense, you wasted their time. If you show up at 6 pm sharp in a culture where a 6 pm invitation means 7 or 7:30, you're imposing on a host who needs to shower and cook. (And if you wait until 9, you're back with cold food.)
If you want to live in a culture where "come over for dinner" means "show up anytime between 4 and 9 and I'll cook when you get here," then you are perfectly free to tell your guests that.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:04 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've been an executive-level assistant my whole working life, and am currently the admin to a bigwig in our hospital system who is also still a practicing surgeon, and his schedule is bonkers. We schedule in 15 minute increments, and I place artificial restraints on scheduling that only he and I know about so that he actually has time to think about things and have off-the-cuff conversations and so on. It's a bad day when it's back to back meetings but those days absolutely happen and those meetings (which for the most part he has asked for) are important. But man, that unscheduled time is precious and has to be jealously guarded.
Similarly, several years back my household got to June and realized that we couldn't take a vacation because every week was already accounted for. We now have a meeting in January to block out the important things we want to make sure we have time for during that whole year, and reserve those days, because otherwise our time gets eaten up by the stuff we'd kind of rather not be doing. People think we're crazy and I've gotten a lot of comments about "you guys need to relax/go with the flow" or whatever but you know what makes me relax? Having time off to go to beach. But this is only a problem to begin with because at least 75% of our waking hours are already highly scheduled because capitalism. And we don't even have kids. And none of us are like, highly ambitious powerhouse people or whatever, we just have jobs.
Any system where you don't have as least as much down time as you have responsibility time is exploitative.
It comes down to this.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:24 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Similarly, several years back my household got to June and realized that we couldn't take a vacation because every week was already accounted for. We now have a meeting in January to block out the important things we want to make sure we have time for during that whole year, and reserve those days, because otherwise our time gets eaten up by the stuff we'd kind of rather not be doing. People think we're crazy and I've gotten a lot of comments about "you guys need to relax/go with the flow" or whatever but you know what makes me relax? Having time off to go to beach. But this is only a problem to begin with because at least 75% of our waking hours are already highly scheduled because capitalism. And we don't even have kids. And none of us are like, highly ambitious powerhouse people or whatever, we just have jobs.
Any system where you don't have as least as much down time as you have responsibility time is exploitative.
It comes down to this.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:24 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Some of this comes down to IT configured defaults. My first job, pretty much everyone's Outlook calendar was open, because that was the default and nobody noticed / cared. It did mean snoops could see when management had an appointment with HR on a friday, which was not great. For all the reasons the article and comments above mine mention, this is probably not a default anyone likes.
Later, at another job, everyone had official outlook accounts from IT but the department more or less relied on a google for domains account (later on the rest of the uni moved as well). So like, sending a calendar invite to my institutional email would land on a calendar I never looked at. This worked for the most part because I rarely interacted with the rest of the uni, and most of my collaboration work was done with OSS communities that already favored IRC and email over Skype calls and conference rooms.
Current job in the private sector: you can review anyone's free/busy schedule, but only people designated your "assistant" can anything else about your calendar. When someone wants my undivided attention for a meeting, I tell them to send an invite instead of wasting my time negotiating how to spend my time later.
The downside to shared calendar systems is you have to set aside time to work on your actual job tasks, or people will ask to take it all from you. Management consultants advise clients that calendars reflect priorities, and so we should "protect" our time by intentionally scheduling our priorities on our calendar. Which is why I have to block out time on departmental "no meeting days" or I will inevitably get invites "because it's the only time available."
posted by pwnguin at 11:48 AM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Later, at another job, everyone had official outlook accounts from IT but the department more or less relied on a google for domains account (later on the rest of the uni moved as well). So like, sending a calendar invite to my institutional email would land on a calendar I never looked at. This worked for the most part because I rarely interacted with the rest of the uni, and most of my collaboration work was done with OSS communities that already favored IRC and email over Skype calls and conference rooms.
Current job in the private sector: you can review anyone's free/busy schedule, but only people designated your "assistant" can anything else about your calendar. When someone wants my undivided attention for a meeting, I tell them to send an invite instead of wasting my time negotiating how to spend my time later.
The downside to shared calendar systems is you have to set aside time to work on your actual job tasks, or people will ask to take it all from you. Management consultants advise clients that calendars reflect priorities, and so we should "protect" our time by intentionally scheduling our priorities on our calendar. Which is why I have to block out time on departmental "no meeting days" or I will inevitably get invites "because it's the only time available."
posted by pwnguin at 11:48 AM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm a subscriber to AHP's Culture Study, and there was a discussion thread on this calendar topic last week. I feel like this essay conflated two things from the thread - academic calendar culture and family calendar culture - that each deserve to be unpacked on their own individually before they get mashed together.
Yes, there are clearly some obvious connecting threads. I'm a systems thinker and I do love me a Grand Unified Theory of Something. AHP has been doing some great work on exploring systems of care, and why they're so broken in American culture in particular. The ways in which we think (dysfunctionally) about time in the US are worthy of a lot more investigation.
I dunno, though... as a parent, I felt like this essay was scolding me for my family's participation in the crappy system that surrounds us. Spoiler alert: We knew all along that it sucks! We felt stuck in the middle of the thing and didn't know how to get out of it!
I agree with praemunire - AHP is great on spotlighting an issue and drawing attention to it. Root cause analysis, and options to solve? Welp. This was also my issue with Out of Office, which Ed Zitron rightly roasted last autumn.
posted by sockshaveholes at 11:49 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yes, there are clearly some obvious connecting threads. I'm a systems thinker and I do love me a Grand Unified Theory of Something. AHP has been doing some great work on exploring systems of care, and why they're so broken in American culture in particular. The ways in which we think (dysfunctionally) about time in the US are worthy of a lot more investigation.
I dunno, though... as a parent, I felt like this essay was scolding me for my family's participation in the crappy system that surrounds us. Spoiler alert: We knew all along that it sucks! We felt stuck in the middle of the thing and didn't know how to get out of it!
I agree with praemunire - AHP is great on spotlighting an issue and drawing attention to it. Root cause analysis, and options to solve? Welp. This was also my issue with Out of Office, which Ed Zitron rightly roasted last autumn.
posted by sockshaveholes at 11:49 AM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I find it absolutely fascinating/baffling how many people have this attitude that people who are late are stealing their time, or expressing a belief that their (the late person's) time is more valuable. People who are late are accused of being selfish, but honestly, it seems quite self-absorbed to assume that the other person's lateness is fundamentally about you. Yes, if you have context to believe they are self-absorbed or think they're better than you, ok. But otherwise, there are a zillion reasons someone may be late, and most of them probably have nothing to do with you.
I'm saying this as a person who has ADHD but is actually pretty punctual. But I think ADHD has given me a lot of understanding for the fact that people are not always in control of their actions, and that one's intentions are not always in line with how one's actions are received.
Most of the time, it's not a huge deal if someone is a bit late. If you're seeing something that starts at a certain time and you know that person is often late, have a conversation with them about it. Hell, go in when it starts even if they're not there yet. Or find other things to do with that person that don't rely on punctuality. If it's in a professional setting, well, we all have meetings that run over sometimes, or we get lost in a task, or hell, we needed to take a break and time got away from us. I think we should all give each other more grace in workplaces.
posted by lunasol at 12:45 PM on October 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'm saying this as a person who has ADHD but is actually pretty punctual. But I think ADHD has given me a lot of understanding for the fact that people are not always in control of their actions, and that one's intentions are not always in line with how one's actions are received.
Most of the time, it's not a huge deal if someone is a bit late. If you're seeing something that starts at a certain time and you know that person is often late, have a conversation with them about it. Hell, go in when it starts even if they're not there yet. Or find other things to do with that person that don't rely on punctuality. If it's in a professional setting, well, we all have meetings that run over sometimes, or we get lost in a task, or hell, we needed to take a break and time got away from us. I think we should all give each other more grace in workplaces.
posted by lunasol at 12:45 PM on October 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
I found the discussion of academic calendar culture interesting, because I'm an academic. I don't share my calendar. I've never even considered sharing my calendar - I'm having this mind blown moment. With whom would I share it? Why would I do that? Would it benefit me? Am I one of these dinosaurs who doesn't want anyone to know when I'm free?
If there's a calendar sharing for dummies out there I'd be curious to get a pointer to it.
posted by medusa at 12:46 PM on October 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
If there's a calendar sharing for dummies out there I'd be curious to get a pointer to it.
posted by medusa at 12:46 PM on October 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
lunasol, I feel like that's missing the point that generally you've made an agreement about timelines, and if you're the one more closely sticking to it, you are in fact being harmed? At the very least, the other person values their agreements with you less than they do something else.
posted by sagc at 12:57 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:57 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
don't share my calendar. I've never even considered sharing my calendar - I'm having this mind blown moment. With whom would I share it? Why would I do that? Would it benefit me?
I don't know how academic workplaces are, but in your standard office culture (I'm in the nonprofit sector), you share it so other people can invite you to meetings and you can do the same. In a standard workplace, you're all using the same calendar (usually Google in my experience) so if Colleague A needs to schedule a meeting with you and Colleague B, A can look at both of your calendars and see when you are both available. It saves a lot of email back and forth, especially if it's a meeting with more than, say, 5 people. The drawback is that someone can put something on your calendar without your consent - even if you don't accept the invite, unless you delete it, it stays on your calendar. In really meetings-mad workplaces, your calendar can fill up quickly.
posted by lunasol at 12:57 PM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't know how academic workplaces are, but in your standard office culture (I'm in the nonprofit sector), you share it so other people can invite you to meetings and you can do the same. In a standard workplace, you're all using the same calendar (usually Google in my experience) so if Colleague A needs to schedule a meeting with you and Colleague B, A can look at both of your calendars and see when you are both available. It saves a lot of email back and forth, especially if it's a meeting with more than, say, 5 people. The drawback is that someone can put something on your calendar without your consent - even if you don't accept the invite, unless you delete it, it stays on your calendar. In really meetings-mad workplaces, your calendar can fill up quickly.
posted by lunasol at 12:57 PM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
many people have this attitude that people who are late are stealing their time
Well, in the business context, I'm sitting at a conference table or on a Zoom call waiting for you. You're spending your time how you like, I'm sitting on my hands accommodating you. You've busted up the time when I could've been doing my unscheduled pondering. Making people sit around idly until you turn up is using their time for your own convenience. It's not that complicated.
I have one friend who is perpetually late, and, while I find it annoying, in the end I decided that it was worth the price of admission. With other people, I've made the opposite call, and that's just how life works. Sometimes you're compatible, sometimes you're not. But I don't have the freedom to make those kinds of decisions when it comes to work colleagues.
posted by praemunire at 1:02 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Well, in the business context, I'm sitting at a conference table or on a Zoom call waiting for you. You're spending your time how you like, I'm sitting on my hands accommodating you. You've busted up the time when I could've been doing my unscheduled pondering. Making people sit around idly until you turn up is using their time for your own convenience. It's not that complicated.
I have one friend who is perpetually late, and, while I find it annoying, in the end I decided that it was worth the price of admission. With other people, I've made the opposite call, and that's just how life works. Sometimes you're compatible, sometimes you're not. But I don't have the freedom to make those kinds of decisions when it comes to work colleagues.
posted by praemunire at 1:02 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
lunasol, I feel like that's missing the point that generally you've made an agreement about timelines, and if you're the one more closely sticking to it, you are in fact being harmed? At the very least, the other person values their agreements with you less than they do something else.
I see your point about being harm, but I guess I just don't agree with the assumption of ill intent. As someone with ADHD, there are a lot of things I value that I don't wind up making time for, and ADHDers are not the only ones with imperfect executive function.
posted by lunasol at 1:05 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
I see your point about being harm, but I guess I just don't agree with the assumption of ill intent. As someone with ADHD, there are a lot of things I value that I don't wind up making time for, and ADHDers are not the only ones with imperfect executive function.
posted by lunasol at 1:05 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
I guess it's just a question of "assuming ill intent" and "being annoyed". I try to keep things in the latter territory, but it does sometime hit a point where - as people have mentioned above - something regarding relative power is being communicated.
posted by sagc at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
self-absorbed to assume that the other person's lateness is fundamentally about you.
Not quite. The person who is late is clearly not making things about the person waiting. That's usually what the waiter is irritated by. There doesn't have to be ill intent. It's almost the opposite, there is the perception of not being thought of at all.
You're right, there's a lot of reasons people are late. Usually the ones late for selfish reasons make it known in other ways, so they're fairly easy to drop.
My friends who are late by a consistent amount at least make it easy to predict when to have stuff ready for their arrival. The ones who are inconsistent can be a bit maddening, so I just make sure things aren't time sensitive. I like doing stuff at home, so that makes it fairly easy. Although when they're 4 hours late I'm sometimes. But perturbed that I could have gotten a few extra chores out of the way.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2022
Not quite. The person who is late is clearly not making things about the person waiting. That's usually what the waiter is irritated by. There doesn't have to be ill intent. It's almost the opposite, there is the perception of not being thought of at all.
You're right, there's a lot of reasons people are late. Usually the ones late for selfish reasons make it known in other ways, so they're fairly easy to drop.
My friends who are late by a consistent amount at least make it easy to predict when to have stuff ready for their arrival. The ones who are inconsistent can be a bit maddening, so I just make sure things aren't time sensitive. I like doing stuff at home, so that makes it fairly easy. Although when they're 4 hours late I'm sometimes. But perturbed that I could have gotten a few extra chores out of the way.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2022
You're spending your time how you like,
Just to pause right there--this is a huge assumption that people are late because they're goofing off, doing leisure stuff. More often than not, people are late because of things that are unpleasant and/or out of their control (transportation issues, IT issues, bathroom issues, childcare issues--just to name a few!).
It would be good to build in some more room for grace when someone is late to a Zoom meeting, or anything, rather than to assume they're having fun doing something else and just can't be bothered to show up on time.
And also can we not conflate "harm" with inconvenience?? If I'm waiting for a friend at the theater and they're 15 minutes late, I'm mildly annoyed but not harmed.
posted by knotty knots at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Just to pause right there--this is a huge assumption that people are late because they're goofing off, doing leisure stuff. More often than not, people are late because of things that are unpleasant and/or out of their control (transportation issues, IT issues, bathroom issues, childcare issues--just to name a few!).
It would be good to build in some more room for grace when someone is late to a Zoom meeting, or anything, rather than to assume they're having fun doing something else and just can't be bothered to show up on time.
And also can we not conflate "harm" with inconvenience?? If I'm waiting for a friend at the theater and they're 15 minutes late, I'm mildly annoyed but not harmed.
posted by knotty knots at 1:09 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
With whom would I share it? Why would I do that? Would it benefit me? Am I one of these dinosaurs who doesn't want anyone to know when I'm free?
If there's a calendar sharing for dummies out there I'd be curious to get a pointer to it.
My boss shares hers with me, I help run the lab and coordinate everything. She also, for now, shares with a bunch of admin and other profs, as she's chair for now. She's aggressive at blocking research time, so sharing means people don't bother her or try to schedule when she's writing.
If you're good at declining meeting times that don't work for you, I don't know that sharing is a huge help. But of you're the kind of person who goes "Eh, I could make that work" on repeat until all you have is meetings, then sharing (especially if it just shows as busy) helps minimize people asking.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:13 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
If there's a calendar sharing for dummies out there I'd be curious to get a pointer to it.
My boss shares hers with me, I help run the lab and coordinate everything. She also, for now, shares with a bunch of admin and other profs, as she's chair for now. She's aggressive at blocking research time, so sharing means people don't bother her or try to schedule when she's writing.
If you're good at declining meeting times that don't work for you, I don't know that sharing is a huge help. But of you're the kind of person who goes "Eh, I could make that work" on repeat until all you have is meetings, then sharing (especially if it just shows as busy) helps minimize people asking.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:13 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
you are in fact being harmed? At the very least, the other person values their agreements with you less than they do something else.
I mean. In the very purest sense this might be true, but in practice it seems like an awfully hostile way to go about viewing another person unless they've given you additional reason to do so. The "harm" is often quite small and the determination of value presumes people always have perfect control over their circumstances.
Well, in the business context, I'm sitting at a conference table or on a Zoom call waiting for you. You're spending your time how you like
LOL what? If I'm at work, I'm categorically NOT spending my time "how I like." I don't want my meetings to run over any more than the people waiting on me do, but what am I gonna do, tell my boss to STFU already? GOD I WOULD LOVE TO.
ESPECIALLY in the business context I feel like people need to grant each other some grace. Nobody wants to be there! Nobody gets to determine their time! Everyone is at the whim of some other asshole the whole time, so let's all just muddle through until we can go back to our lives already.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:13 PM on October 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean. In the very purest sense this might be true, but in practice it seems like an awfully hostile way to go about viewing another person unless they've given you additional reason to do so. The "harm" is often quite small and the determination of value presumes people always have perfect control over their circumstances.
Well, in the business context, I'm sitting at a conference table or on a Zoom call waiting for you. You're spending your time how you like
LOL what? If I'm at work, I'm categorically NOT spending my time "how I like." I don't want my meetings to run over any more than the people waiting on me do, but what am I gonna do, tell my boss to STFU already? GOD I WOULD LOVE TO.
ESPECIALLY in the business context I feel like people need to grant each other some grace. Nobody wants to be there! Nobody gets to determine their time! Everyone is at the whim of some other asshole the whole time, so let's all just muddle through until we can go back to our lives already.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:13 PM on October 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
OK, forget I said harm. But people do have valid reasons to prefer people be on time for things, and those reasons aren't all reasons that they're bad, unempathetic people.
Basically, I think this has to go both ways? People need to give more grace for other people being late; people should recognize that attempting to coordinate with others does often require relatively precise timelines.
posted by sagc at 1:16 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Basically, I think this has to go both ways? People need to give more grace for other people being late; people should recognize that attempting to coordinate with others does often require relatively precise timelines.
posted by sagc at 1:16 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Mild inconvenience is harm. It's not, like, catastrophic harm. It's not a punch in the face or having your pocket picked or whatever, but it's harm, and it's courteous to try to avoid inflicting that harm when possible. And, of course, a person who inconveniences you without ill intent should be viewed differently from a person who inconveniences you out of total negligence or malice, but...in the end...you're still inconvenienced.
Of course, to try to return to the more interesting topic rather than everyone's airing of grievances (guilty!), this tension is capitalism turning us on each other...but there is still stuff that is hard to accomplish asynchronously. In any economy or organization of time, I think. Grace is good, but also consideration.
posted by praemunire at 1:46 PM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Of course, to try to return to the more interesting topic rather than everyone's airing of grievances (guilty!), this tension is capitalism turning us on each other...but there is still stuff that is hard to accomplish asynchronously. In any economy or organization of time, I think. Grace is good, but also consideration.
posted by praemunire at 1:46 PM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
With whom would I share it? Why would I do that? Would it benefit me?
Most of the academics at my institution who think they don't share their calendar are in fact viewable to me as "free/busy" because we're at the same institution and calendars are "free/busy" viewable by default - that is, I can look at their calendar and see blocks of time labeled "free" or "busy" but without any other details. When set up a meeting, there's a drop-down for "busy" by default which you can change to e.g. free or out of office or tentative or whatever. Unscheduled time is presumably truly unscheduled, and "free" time is presumably a "meeting" that is actually a reminder but because most people don't pay attention to this stuff, I assume it's actually a meeting and ask about meeting times that appear unscheduled, unless I know the person's calendar habits.
Your institution might have different defaults.
If you don't have an academic assistant and you've never noticed this was a problem then you are probably fine to carry on as you have been.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:55 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Most of the academics at my institution who think they don't share their calendar are in fact viewable to me as "free/busy" because we're at the same institution and calendars are "free/busy" viewable by default - that is, I can look at their calendar and see blocks of time labeled "free" or "busy" but without any other details. When set up a meeting, there's a drop-down for "busy" by default which you can change to e.g. free or out of office or tentative or whatever. Unscheduled time is presumably truly unscheduled, and "free" time is presumably a "meeting" that is actually a reminder but because most people don't pay attention to this stuff, I assume it's actually a meeting and ask about meeting times that appear unscheduled, unless I know the person's calendar habits.
Your institution might have different defaults.
If you don't have an academic assistant and you've never noticed this was a problem then you are probably fine to carry on as you have been.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:55 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
And also can we not conflate "harm" with inconvenience?? If I'm waiting for a friend at the theater and they're 15 minutes late, I'm mildly annoyed but not harmed.
I think what really grates people's gears is showing up late to a meeting and then asking to pause the meeting to catch you up. Excusing that kind of behavior with "nobody likes work anyways so it's the same harm either way" is a bit like saying dentistry without anesthesia is fine because nobody enjoys dentist appointments. Also: people like to feel efficient and productive at work, and waiting for key staff on zoom ain't it boss. Looking back at the end of a day and feeling like it was all a waste is markedly different than accomplishing what you believe you are paid to do.
Obviously, we need grace for one off circumstances! But anyone perpetually unable to meet their obligations needs to sort out a new process. Maybe reschedule the meeting you're often late to. Intentionally block off time after meetings you attend and expect to run long. Have another attendee emcee and take notes so you can catch up later. Maybe convert the whole thing to an email thread.
The other pathology I've seen out of management is double or triple booking their calendar. On one hand is seems genius -- you now have one or two alibis for skipping out on every meeting on your calendar! But it can lead to you overpromising your time, bailing on meetings halfway through for the other meeting, and the system never getting the feedback it needs to stop scheduling so many damn meetings.
posted by pwnguin at 2:27 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think what really grates people's gears is showing up late to a meeting and then asking to pause the meeting to catch you up. Excusing that kind of behavior with "nobody likes work anyways so it's the same harm either way" is a bit like saying dentistry without anesthesia is fine because nobody enjoys dentist appointments. Also: people like to feel efficient and productive at work, and waiting for key staff on zoom ain't it boss. Looking back at the end of a day and feeling like it was all a waste is markedly different than accomplishing what you believe you are paid to do.
Obviously, we need grace for one off circumstances! But anyone perpetually unable to meet their obligations needs to sort out a new process. Maybe reschedule the meeting you're often late to. Intentionally block off time after meetings you attend and expect to run long. Have another attendee emcee and take notes so you can catch up later. Maybe convert the whole thing to an email thread.
The other pathology I've seen out of management is double or triple booking their calendar. On one hand is seems genius -- you now have one or two alibis for skipping out on every meeting on your calendar! But it can lead to you overpromising your time, bailing on meetings halfway through for the other meeting, and the system never getting the feedback it needs to stop scheduling so many damn meetings.
posted by pwnguin at 2:27 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
The other pathology I've seen out of management is double or triple booking their calendar.
Ah, I see someone granted you access to my published calendar! In my case, it’s not so much that I myself triple-book. I have enough of an overpromising problem without going out of my way to make it worse.
It’s that people who’ve never even heard of each other or have inflated sense of their own urgency across a massive corporation just emit waves of meeting invitations with no regard for availability. This is compounded by the fact that the most common calendaring systems — Google’s and Microsoft’s — then actually put the meeting proposal on your calendar as though that person gets to decide what your day is like.
More than once have I started my day trying to decide which, if any, of three simultaneous meetings asking for my time is worth attending. Across multiple time slots.
Don’t get me wrong, I love meeting with people and helping them solve their problems. The demand, however, massively outstrips the available capacity and everything, everywhere, always, is urgent.
posted by majick at 3:05 PM on October 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ah, I see someone granted you access to my published calendar! In my case, it’s not so much that I myself triple-book. I have enough of an overpromising problem without going out of my way to make it worse.
It’s that people who’ve never even heard of each other or have inflated sense of their own urgency across a massive corporation just emit waves of meeting invitations with no regard for availability. This is compounded by the fact that the most common calendaring systems — Google’s and Microsoft’s — then actually put the meeting proposal on your calendar as though that person gets to decide what your day is like.
More than once have I started my day trying to decide which, if any, of three simultaneous meetings asking for my time is worth attending. Across multiple time slots.
Don’t get me wrong, I love meeting with people and helping them solve their problems. The demand, however, massively outstrips the available capacity and everything, everywhere, always, is urgent.
posted by majick at 3:05 PM on October 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Obviously, we need grace for one off circumstances! But anyone perpetually unable to meet their obligations needs to sort out a new process. Maybe reschedule the meeting you're often late to. Intentionally block off time after meetings you attend and expect to run long. Have another attendee emcee and take notes so you can catch up later. Maybe convert the whole thing to an email thread.
Again, this comes down to the assumption that most people have any level of control over their time! If you're in upper upper management in my company, maybe this advice could be applied. But nobody else has the authority to cancel a meeting, turn it down, reschedule it. Every one of my bosses (middle management) is triple booked by THEIR bosses, all day long. I've never seen my direct manager make it through an entire meeting without having to bounce to a conflicting call. We need grace for 100% of my job, because not a single process is good, or ever going to improve, and none of us has any authority to do so.
It’s that people who’ve never even heard of each other or have inflated sense of their own urgency across a massive corporation just emit waves of meeting invitations with no regard for availability.
YUUUUUUP. And all of them outrank me, and my boss basically has "everything is the priority" tattooed on her forehead.
Honestly having ruminated on the FPP article for a while now, while trying to tolerate yet another waste of life kind of day at my job, I agree with the comment above that the problem isn't the monochronicity of time, it's that all other systems are just fully broken. Time is fine when you have enough of it, and enough people in it, and enough resources for the people, and reasonable goals and ends decided on by reasonable people who know how to pivot if something is going tits-up. Time is fine when a new parent has paid leave to recover from giving birth or begin adapting to parenthood. Time is fine for a person with ADHD when they have structure and support and can get medical care if they want it. Time is fine for a sick person when they don't need to worry that they'll lose their job and then die for lack of insurance.
Time is fine. The culture is trash.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:15 PM on October 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Again, this comes down to the assumption that most people have any level of control over their time! If you're in upper upper management in my company, maybe this advice could be applied. But nobody else has the authority to cancel a meeting, turn it down, reschedule it. Every one of my bosses (middle management) is triple booked by THEIR bosses, all day long. I've never seen my direct manager make it through an entire meeting without having to bounce to a conflicting call. We need grace for 100% of my job, because not a single process is good, or ever going to improve, and none of us has any authority to do so.
It’s that people who’ve never even heard of each other or have inflated sense of their own urgency across a massive corporation just emit waves of meeting invitations with no regard for availability.
YUUUUUUP. And all of them outrank me, and my boss basically has "everything is the priority" tattooed on her forehead.
Honestly having ruminated on the FPP article for a while now, while trying to tolerate yet another waste of life kind of day at my job, I agree with the comment above that the problem isn't the monochronicity of time, it's that all other systems are just fully broken. Time is fine when you have enough of it, and enough people in it, and enough resources for the people, and reasonable goals and ends decided on by reasonable people who know how to pivot if something is going tits-up. Time is fine when a new parent has paid leave to recover from giving birth or begin adapting to parenthood. Time is fine for a person with ADHD when they have structure and support and can get medical care if they want it. Time is fine for a sick person when they don't need to worry that they'll lose their job and then die for lack of insurance.
Time is fine. The culture is trash.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:15 PM on October 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Part of what might be going on in academia, as someone who is in it, is that *we work with students*. They're the ones requesting meetings, and they're mostly not at a point where they're maintaining their Microsoft office calendars (heck, basic email etiquette is a major learning curve.) I definitely appreciate any calls that this should be part of student "how to college" training, but it's just not right now.
I'll also say the only folks I know at my institution that maintain calendars are generally on the admin side: either staff, or department chairs, dean's, etc., which makes sense, since they've got more meeting heavy positions. (I started sharing mine once I became a program coordinator.) So the arguments that its about power don't really ring true to me, at least at a macro level.
posted by damayanti at 3:19 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'll also say the only folks I know at my institution that maintain calendars are generally on the admin side: either staff, or department chairs, dean's, etc., which makes sense, since they've got more meeting heavy positions. (I started sharing mine once I became a program coordinator.) So the arguments that its about power don't really ring true to me, at least at a macro level.
posted by damayanti at 3:19 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
when was the last time any of us didn't get indignant having to wait beyond their appointment time at the eye doctor, or for a flight that's delayed or any of the things for which a scheduled time is actually helpful and lets them then schedule their free time around it.
One of the best things about living in Miami was that very little was that strictly scheduled. Nobody seemed bothered if they had to wait at the eye doctor because they expected that they might have to. Which is why the doctor schedules appointments like "come between x and y", not "be here at x or you lose your spot in line". Everybody knows the score, so it's fine. If you really need someone to be somewhere by an exact time, just tell them it's half an hour earlier than it really is and then be there early in case they show earlier than expected. Or don't, they aren't gonna be mad if you're half an hour "late", just like you wouldn't be mad at them for same.
It was only problematic where island time and regular time clashed, like with some jobs. My SO's office job schedule was "be here sometime before 10:30". I thought that was nice.
As far as "stealing" time from others at a movie, for example, it's pretty easy to text your friends who aren't there for the start where you are sitting and they can join you whenever. They're the ones missing out. Same for dinner. No restaurant I'd want to go to has an "entire party must be here to seat anyone" policy, so if a dinner companion shows up late, no biggie, sit down and have a drink and order your food if need be. If they have to rush through their meal, that's something they're doing to themselves, not anyone else. I still get a relaxing meal even if they have to wolf down their entree and eat a cold appetizer. Sometimes it's the other way around. That's fine, too.
posted by wierdo at 3:48 PM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
One of the best things about living in Miami was that very little was that strictly scheduled. Nobody seemed bothered if they had to wait at the eye doctor because they expected that they might have to. Which is why the doctor schedules appointments like "come between x and y", not "be here at x or you lose your spot in line". Everybody knows the score, so it's fine. If you really need someone to be somewhere by an exact time, just tell them it's half an hour earlier than it really is and then be there early in case they show earlier than expected. Or don't, they aren't gonna be mad if you're half an hour "late", just like you wouldn't be mad at them for same.
It was only problematic where island time and regular time clashed, like with some jobs. My SO's office job schedule was "be here sometime before 10:30". I thought that was nice.
As far as "stealing" time from others at a movie, for example, it's pretty easy to text your friends who aren't there for the start where you are sitting and they can join you whenever. They're the ones missing out. Same for dinner. No restaurant I'd want to go to has an "entire party must be here to seat anyone" policy, so if a dinner companion shows up late, no biggie, sit down and have a drink and order your food if need be. If they have to rush through their meal, that's something they're doing to themselves, not anyone else. I still get a relaxing meal even if they have to wolf down their entree and eat a cold appetizer. Sometimes it's the other way around. That's fine, too.
posted by wierdo at 3:48 PM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
joannemerriam has a similar setup to mine. I will say, as a postdoc occasionally wrangling multiple PIs and/or students for meetings, it is very useful to have access to calendars so I can suggest meeting times that at least theoretically work! On the other hand, I am also the only person in my lab who has noticed I can search for folks' calendars within my institution and check for obvious conflicts, so YMMV. Still, it's a nice thing to be able to do when I need to come up with a meeting time that might, at least in theory, work for everyone. (This also requires you to use your institutional email GCal, of course; not everyone does.)
In the bad old days of my PhD, I had to go and gather as much information as I could about when, say, committee members would definitely not be available (e.g. teaching times, known lab meeting times, travel dates) and use that to construct a list of "definitely not" times, and then from there construct a short list of options. We certainly did not have a dept admin I could ask to do that scheduling in my grad dept! I sort of have access to one now--the future is wild--but it's very nice to bypass having to hunt down and get the attention of an actual human with technology tweaks.
Here's a quick tutorial on how to use Google Calendar to see the rough availability for other people in your org/public calendars/calendars shared with you. It looks like the defaults for people in the same org are for other people to be able to see when you're busy but not why.
posted by sciatrix at 3:52 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
In the bad old days of my PhD, I had to go and gather as much information as I could about when, say, committee members would definitely not be available (e.g. teaching times, known lab meeting times, travel dates) and use that to construct a list of "definitely not" times, and then from there construct a short list of options. We certainly did not have a dept admin I could ask to do that scheduling in my grad dept! I sort of have access to one now--the future is wild--but it's very nice to bypass having to hunt down and get the attention of an actual human with technology tweaks.
Here's a quick tutorial on how to use Google Calendar to see the rough availability for other people in your org/public calendars/calendars shared with you. It looks like the defaults for people in the same org are for other people to be able to see when you're busy but not why.
posted by sciatrix at 3:52 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
The demand, however, massively outstrips the available capacity and everything, everywhere, always, is urgent.
Shadows of the famous paper on military lying about training compliance, which builds upon this key line from their previous research:
So I don't think the issue is "capitalism", so much as social hierarchy and a missing feedback path.
posted by pwnguin at 3:56 PM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Shadows of the famous paper on military lying about training compliance, which builds upon this key line from their previous research:
In the rush by higher headquarters to incorporate every good idea into training, the total number of training days required by all mandatory training directives literally exceeds the number of training days available to company commanders. Company commanders somehow have to fit 297 days of mandatory requirements into 256 available training days
So I don't think the issue is "capitalism", so much as social hierarchy and a missing feedback path.
posted by pwnguin at 3:56 PM on October 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Nobody seemed bothered if they had to wait at the eye doctor because they expected that they might have to.
I guess nobody has childcare responsibilities in Miami? Nobody gets paid by the hour and has to use sick (or unpaid!) time to go to the doctor? Wild.
posted by praemunire at 3:58 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I guess nobody has childcare responsibilities in Miami? Nobody gets paid by the hour and has to use sick (or unpaid!) time to go to the doctor? Wild.
posted by praemunire at 3:58 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
So I don't think the issue is "capitalism", so much as social hierarchy and a missing feedback path.
One could surely find similar phenomena in 20th-century communist Russia or China...
posted by praemunire at 3:59 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
One could surely find similar phenomena in 20th-century communist Russia or China...
posted by praemunire at 3:59 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I guess nobody has childcare responsibilities in Miami? Nobody gets paid by the hour and has to use sick (or unpaid!) time to go to the doctor? Wild.
Everything's flexible. People just move their hours around as necessary to accommodate. They get a decent idea of when they'll actually be seen and show up then rather than at some overly optimistic appointment time that is never kept anywhere in this country.
It probably helps that there is both a very high percentage of people living in multigenerational households so childcare generally doesn't need to be scheduled so strictly and that (in most parts of town) it's completely accepted for kids to be by themselves for a couple of hours if need be by the time they're in elementary school. I lived next to an elementary school for a few years and the vast majority of the kids walked to and from school without an adult. School was about the only thing that was strictly scheduled.
I'm not saying that no care whatsoever is given to time, it just has a much looser association to the actual clock than I've seen anywhere else in the US. People made it work.
I would not be surprised if it's changing what with the near doubling in rent over the past couple of years driving out long term residents along with the vast number of transplants coming to town in the new work from home era. I do know that said transplants do bitterly complain about island time every chance they get, both in person and online.
The point being that it is possible to live a life less beholden to precise timing. Things still get done, people are still happy. Perhaps there's some stress involved at times, but that's no different than living somewhere that punctuality is the norm.
posted by wierdo at 4:37 PM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Everything's flexible. People just move their hours around as necessary to accommodate. They get a decent idea of when they'll actually be seen and show up then rather than at some overly optimistic appointment time that is never kept anywhere in this country.
It probably helps that there is both a very high percentage of people living in multigenerational households so childcare generally doesn't need to be scheduled so strictly and that (in most parts of town) it's completely accepted for kids to be by themselves for a couple of hours if need be by the time they're in elementary school. I lived next to an elementary school for a few years and the vast majority of the kids walked to and from school without an adult. School was about the only thing that was strictly scheduled.
I'm not saying that no care whatsoever is given to time, it just has a much looser association to the actual clock than I've seen anywhere else in the US. People made it work.
I would not be surprised if it's changing what with the near doubling in rent over the past couple of years driving out long term residents along with the vast number of transplants coming to town in the new work from home era. I do know that said transplants do bitterly complain about island time every chance they get, both in person and online.
The point being that it is possible to live a life less beholden to precise timing. Things still get done, people are still happy. Perhaps there's some stress involved at times, but that's no different than living somewhere that punctuality is the norm.
posted by wierdo at 4:37 PM on October 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Some of this conversation is reminding me of the role of The Monitor in Burnout and also some things about time and happiness that I think I heard mostly about on The Happiness Lab podcast - that when we perceive we don't have time for things, it's really stressful.
The Monitor is kind of the clock in your head - the example I recall from the book is if you think your drive should take 20 minutes and there's a delay, it's very stressful, but if you can just accept the situation and maybe sing in the car, then your alert system can come down.
I really don't think the two types of time as embodied in people are completely at loggerheads, nor are they simply about lateness/meetings.
My husband is really, really good at being present with our kids (and me). He had a long tolerance for sitting and playing blocks, for example. Whereas I seem to live my life on a kind of 15 minute timer (with a few 'flow state' exceptions) and I found it really hard to play blocks when I thought I should be moving things ahead for dinner.
Both are useful in our family, but I do think the latter often is in response to the kind of Instagram Planner Make The Most Of Every Minute! thing. And like I said, when the pandemic shut my family's run-from-this-to-that lifestyle in one abrupt fell swoop, and my kids and I had some time to just...be, it was beneficial. (Then, being me, I did a certificate, finished a degree, and finished a book, because of my 15 minute timer in my head going completely bonkers.)
posted by warriorqueen at 4:46 PM on October 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Monitor is kind of the clock in your head - the example I recall from the book is if you think your drive should take 20 minutes and there's a delay, it's very stressful, but if you can just accept the situation and maybe sing in the car, then your alert system can come down.
I really don't think the two types of time as embodied in people are completely at loggerheads, nor are they simply about lateness/meetings.
My husband is really, really good at being present with our kids (and me). He had a long tolerance for sitting and playing blocks, for example. Whereas I seem to live my life on a kind of 15 minute timer (with a few 'flow state' exceptions) and I found it really hard to play blocks when I thought I should be moving things ahead for dinner.
Both are useful in our family, but I do think the latter often is in response to the kind of Instagram Planner Make The Most Of Every Minute! thing. And like I said, when the pandemic shut my family's run-from-this-to-that lifestyle in one abrupt fell swoop, and my kids and I had some time to just...be, it was beneficial. (Then, being me, I did a certificate, finished a degree, and finished a book, because of my 15 minute timer in my head going completely bonkers.)
posted by warriorqueen at 4:46 PM on October 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The lack of awareness of neurodivergence (yes ADHD but also autism? C-PTSD, dyslexia, DID,..) in this conversation around lateness is A. (neuro)typical and B. worrying.
When my life was on fire before being diagnosed, I would turn up an hour late and spent.
When my life was less on fire but full of traps, I would turn up 30mins late but possibly more grounded.
Now that I'm rebuilding who I am, I will turn up 15mins late (if I'm careful) and maybe actually well, maybe wanting to talk about therapy.
It takes me a planned out day to reliably turn up on time for a 3pm appointment.
I know it reads as disrecptful, that lateness has an emotional impact, but also - I am always possibly going to be late. We aren't all on the same rhythm - I find regular difficult, I lose everytime I look at a clock. And even when I've healed my wounds and built my structures, I will still have ADHD and still be (possibly) late*.
Time is an accessibility issue. Your standards aren't neutral. And look if the neurodivergence side confuses, trauma, particularly childhood trama, also impairs the executive function - if I dissociate, it takes me a while to remember time.
So look, I don't want to be late, I don't aim for it, I need structure and self-love to avoid it. Anyone here who is annoyed with those that are late - so are we. Though, I'm trying to tone that impossible hating voice down and it helps when friends accept that I will always (probably) be (possibly) running late.
But never trying to be.
Oh and It's not a power move FFS, does this person look powerful when they eventually turn up and pretend to relax?
So practically, if you've got a friend whose lateness bothers you, appreciate they may not realise (masking ('self-loathing') often means avoidant, dissociative) not want to admit ("I'm fine!" I yell shivering) or have picked up your cues. So, if want to change things - try asking yourself what your needs are. To not wait 15mins or not miss start of show? Try turning up later for first or giving give two times for the second - meet time and deadline (which is 10mins early). Or something, ask them what might help.
posted by litleozy at 5:20 PM on October 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
When my life was on fire before being diagnosed, I would turn up an hour late and spent.
When my life was less on fire but full of traps, I would turn up 30mins late but possibly more grounded.
Now that I'm rebuilding who I am, I will turn up 15mins late (if I'm careful) and maybe actually well, maybe wanting to talk about therapy.
It takes me a planned out day to reliably turn up on time for a 3pm appointment.
I know it reads as disrecptful, that lateness has an emotional impact, but also - I am always possibly going to be late. We aren't all on the same rhythm - I find regular difficult, I lose everytime I look at a clock. And even when I've healed my wounds and built my structures, I will still have ADHD and still be (possibly) late*.
Time is an accessibility issue. Your standards aren't neutral. And look if the neurodivergence side confuses, trauma, particularly childhood trama, also impairs the executive function - if I dissociate, it takes me a while to remember time.
So look, I don't want to be late, I don't aim for it, I need structure and self-love to avoid it. Anyone here who is annoyed with those that are late - so are we. Though, I'm trying to tone that impossible hating voice down and it helps when friends accept that I will always (probably) be (possibly) running late.
But never trying to be.
Oh and It's not a power move FFS, does this person look powerful when they eventually turn up and pretend to relax?
So practically, if you've got a friend whose lateness bothers you, appreciate they may not realise (masking ('self-loathing') often means avoidant, dissociative) not want to admit ("I'm fine!" I yell shivering) or have picked up your cues. So, if want to change things - try asking yourself what your needs are. To not wait 15mins or not miss start of show? Try turning up later for first or giving give two times for the second - meet time and deadline (which is 10mins early). Or something, ask them what might help.
posted by litleozy at 5:20 PM on October 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
The lack of awareness of neurodivergence … in this conversation around lateness is … worrying.
The worrying-ness of some of this conversation in here is intersectional, I assure you.
posted by majick at 6:56 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
The worrying-ness of some of this conversation in here is intersectional, I assure you.
posted by majick at 6:56 PM on October 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
We didn't pick 24 hours in a day, 7 days in a week, etc., on a whim, or to please capitalists.
We can thank the Jews for the seven-day week (with a day of rest - you're welcome!).
I don't know about the 24-hour day - Babylonians?
posted by jb at 7:21 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
We can thank the Jews for the seven-day week (with a day of rest - you're welcome!).
I don't know about the 24-hour day - Babylonians?
posted by jb at 7:21 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think the Jews got the seven-day week from the Babylonians during the Captivity, but I'm not sure.
posted by praemunire at 7:37 PM on October 12, 2022
posted by praemunire at 7:37 PM on October 12, 2022
Many cultures have a 7 day week because if you look at the sky there are the fixed stars and seven weird things: the sun, the moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Seven objects.
The moon has an almost 28 day cycle, and 28 is evenly divisible by seven! It must be a sign from the gods!
So yeah, most cultures wind up dividing time into days and then grouping those days into seven day chunks. And a **LOT** of cultures named those seven days after the weirdo objects in the sky.
As for the article, I hated it and it brings up many deep seated resentments I've not really even realized I had until I read it.
It struck me as being kind of like the Tyranny of Structurlessness, or the dire Null Process. There's this upper class arrogance baked into the whole thing that seems repellently contemptuous of the little people.
Because just as with the tyranical structure hidden in structurelessness systems, just as with the brutal process concealed by the Null Process, there's a cruel schedule in the article's supposed relaxed non-schedule.
They want to pretend there isn't a schedule, but there is. It's just set by the person who's late. And it's set without any consultation with anyone else, without any consideration for anyone else.
Here we are, ready for dinner. But we can't start until Their Royal Lateness gets here.
You want to talk power? That's power.
Being late is power because it shows that the late person has total control of the group. No one can do anything until they deign to show up and grace us with their presence.
I'm ADHDish, and introverted. Being forced to sit around, not for any known amount of time because then I could figure out something to do, but for an unknown amount of time so I can't do anything but sit there waiting, is agony.
In the old days I carried a book everywhere because I could stay kind of less enraged by the interminable random waiting.
Today my phone has books and so on so I can, somehow, deal with the person setting the schedule by their whim without consulting me, without taking me into consideration, just unilaterally decreeing when I may be permitted to stop waiting and start doing.
Randomness like that is like fingernails on the blackboard of my soul. If I knew they'd would always be 5 minutes late I could deal with it so much better but it's never the same time. Today they're five minutes late, tomorrow it'll be twenty. And there I am. Waiting. My very limited stock of spoons being stolen by the power they're exercising over me.
posted by sotonohito at 8:24 PM on October 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
The moon has an almost 28 day cycle, and 28 is evenly divisible by seven! It must be a sign from the gods!
So yeah, most cultures wind up dividing time into days and then grouping those days into seven day chunks. And a **LOT** of cultures named those seven days after the weirdo objects in the sky.
As for the article, I hated it and it brings up many deep seated resentments I've not really even realized I had until I read it.
It struck me as being kind of like the Tyranny of Structurlessness, or the dire Null Process. There's this upper class arrogance baked into the whole thing that seems repellently contemptuous of the little people.
Because just as with the tyranical structure hidden in structurelessness systems, just as with the brutal process concealed by the Null Process, there's a cruel schedule in the article's supposed relaxed non-schedule.
They want to pretend there isn't a schedule, but there is. It's just set by the person who's late. And it's set without any consultation with anyone else, without any consideration for anyone else.
Here we are, ready for dinner. But we can't start until Their Royal Lateness gets here.
You want to talk power? That's power.
Being late is power because it shows that the late person has total control of the group. No one can do anything until they deign to show up and grace us with their presence.
I'm ADHDish, and introverted. Being forced to sit around, not for any known amount of time because then I could figure out something to do, but for an unknown amount of time so I can't do anything but sit there waiting, is agony.
In the old days I carried a book everywhere because I could stay kind of less enraged by the interminable random waiting.
Today my phone has books and so on so I can, somehow, deal with the person setting the schedule by their whim without consulting me, without taking me into consideration, just unilaterally decreeing when I may be permitted to stop waiting and start doing.
Randomness like that is like fingernails on the blackboard of my soul. If I knew they'd would always be 5 minutes late I could deal with it so much better but it's never the same time. Today they're five minutes late, tomorrow it'll be twenty. And there I am. Waiting. My very limited stock of spoons being stolen by the power they're exercising over me.
posted by sotonohito at 8:24 PM on October 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
Probably relevant anecdote at this point: I've mentioned how collisions with western and non-western timekeeping ethos collide a lot in my work. In my early days, I was assisting on supervising a grant that required a training session in a rural village (different ethnic makeup than mine but also native). Being ADHD and also of a more rubber time schedule (similar 'island time' culture), I'm used to trying to exert myself in work settings to be more western like, especially when actual westerners are around because they get noticeably stressed at timekeeping. Anyway for this first morning, I was somewhat on time (5 mins behind, and at least in the vicinity), but the training only happened about an hour later because roads are perilous and people need to send their kids to school or just came back from the jungle or chores around the house or any number of things. And you start when most of them arrive, with some more grace period, because you won't know if they're stragglers or communicating they're a "no" on that rsvp until you've given them more time, and it's rude to have a communal activity without a community.
At one point I did ask, when should we start, the answer being, it starts when it starts. But there is actually a timekeeping in place, I just didn't have a capacity to understand it.
Anyway, in my mixed rubber time/colonial time culture there's also the same tension of power but where that power is located is contingent imo, on whose metric is the status being assigned. The VIP that's taking his time to attend a ceremony is as much exerting something as a villager who'll come when it's ready when some urban interloper is haring them to do something. Or an employee with a deadline. Something in this can be found in this semi-related discourse in China right now, about the "let it rot" mentality. That one is more on revolt of the lower status with timekeeping being a tactic. Similar to some post-col writings about "the myth of the lazy native". AHP and her readers of course aren't probably cognizant of these threads so hence the tenor of her take.
posted by cendawanita at 9:03 PM on October 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
At one point I did ask, when should we start, the answer being, it starts when it starts. But there is actually a timekeeping in place, I just didn't have a capacity to understand it.
Anyway, in my mixed rubber time/colonial time culture there's also the same tension of power but where that power is located is contingent imo, on whose metric is the status being assigned. The VIP that's taking his time to attend a ceremony is as much exerting something as a villager who'll come when it's ready when some urban interloper is haring them to do something. Or an employee with a deadline. Something in this can be found in this semi-related discourse in China right now, about the "let it rot" mentality. That one is more on revolt of the lower status with timekeeping being a tactic. Similar to some post-col writings about "the myth of the lazy native". AHP and her readers of course aren't probably cognizant of these threads so hence the tenor of her take.
posted by cendawanita at 9:03 PM on October 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
As an ADHD neurodivergent person AND a gigantic asshole, I'm probably gonna be late, unless I'm early (sometimes by days or weeks), or completely miss it because I read a calendar, watch, notice, wrong. So that was the ADHD part. The gigantic asshole part is I no longer apologize for it, and you can stop inviting me if it bothers you, because you are obviously not worth my time. So, you don't like it when I'm late, early, completely miss something? I don't like it when you make my life more difficult by demanding that I fit into your uptight middle class only one way my way perspective.
So yeah, I guess this harm bullshit is a two way street.
posted by evilDoug at 10:38 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
So yeah, I guess this harm bullshit is a two way street.
posted by evilDoug at 10:38 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
It took a lot of effort, propaganda and discipline to get workers and then wider society to observe clock time as the industrial revolution kicked in. Part of the Luddite revolt wasn't about money but about being subject to the opening and closing of the factory gates instead of choosing your own hours. But the master has to maximise the return on capital, so that means getting people to turn up on the dot for their shift, and spreading the idea that people who don't get to work on time (for YOU) are lazy and worthless. Now, we all think punctuality is a courtesy, but this attitude had to be created. Once upon a time demanding punctuality would have been the rude position.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:50 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:50 PM on October 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
(and yes, it is impossible to meet modern demands for school run, childcare, medical appointments etc without punctuality. That's the point. This is constructed. Beyond that this is a classic Metafilter argument where half the comments here are people treating normative claims about what would be nice as descriptive claims about what's possible, and vice versa, and hilarity ensues).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:52 PM on October 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:52 PM on October 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
MetaFilter: half the comments here are people treating normative claims about what would be nice as descriptive claims about what's possible, and vice versa, and hilarity ensues.
posted by lazaruslong at 1:07 AM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by lazaruslong at 1:07 AM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean, realistically, it's not a power move unless you can blow off any potential social consequences for upsetting another person. It's just a move. There is a lot of tension here between people who are often late despite themselves and people who are often made to wait (or at least, people who identify themselves in each of the circumstances).
But it's not a fucking power move to either be late or want someone else to be on time. It's just a move, a behavior, a thing that happens. It's instead a power move to impose your own preferences and exert consequences on someone else for not meeting them.
I think a lot of the frustration and defensiveness here is coming from experiences when we have found ourselves in chronological conflict without having the social power to resolve it. The phrase "power move" stirs that up by drawing our attention to experiences where power is asymmetrical: either there are social consequences for lateness, or all the cost of the late arrival is bourne by the punctual. In the first case people who are often late despite their best efforts flinch and bristle when irritation about lateness comes up ("someone is going to yell at me again"). In the second, people who are made to wait because their time isn't treated with respect tense and bristle ("I have better things to do than live on eternal standby for you.")
And yes, you can work out when someone is generally late because of neurodivergence and when someone is generally late because power allows them to be. It's the same principle as working out whether someone's awkward social behavior is, say, disability or creepy boundary-pushing: does the person do it to people who have more social power than they do, or do they do it only to people with less? How sharp is the behavioral divide?
Now if you will excuse me, I have half an hour to get out the door for my meeting....
posted by sciatrix at 5:34 AM on October 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
But it's not a fucking power move to either be late or want someone else to be on time. It's just a move, a behavior, a thing that happens. It's instead a power move to impose your own preferences and exert consequences on someone else for not meeting them.
I think a lot of the frustration and defensiveness here is coming from experiences when we have found ourselves in chronological conflict without having the social power to resolve it. The phrase "power move" stirs that up by drawing our attention to experiences where power is asymmetrical: either there are social consequences for lateness, or all the cost of the late arrival is bourne by the punctual. In the first case people who are often late despite their best efforts flinch and bristle when irritation about lateness comes up ("someone is going to yell at me again"). In the second, people who are made to wait because their time isn't treated with respect tense and bristle ("I have better things to do than live on eternal standby for you.")
And yes, you can work out when someone is generally late because of neurodivergence and when someone is generally late because power allows them to be. It's the same principle as working out whether someone's awkward social behavior is, say, disability or creepy boundary-pushing: does the person do it to people who have more social power than they do, or do they do it only to people with less? How sharp is the behavioral divide?
Now if you will excuse me, I have half an hour to get out the door for my meeting....
posted by sciatrix at 5:34 AM on October 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
I lived on Saipan for several years and learned all about "island" time. My wife's workplace organized a get-together on the beach on a Sunday afternoon, scheduled at 1 pm. We had already been there long enough to realize that 1pm probably meant something more like 2pm so we showed up around 1:45 and waited for an hour before driving back to our apartment to call someone to make sure we were at the right beach (we did.) So we moseyed back over there 45 minutes later and, still, no one had arrived. To make this long story short people *finally* started showing up after 4:30 or so. All of that was perfectly normal to everyone involved and being outsiders it was just something we accepted. But it was frustrating; even at later gatherings we'd guesstimate when we should arrive and would still end up waiting around, wasting time that we could have been using for other things.
posted by drstrangelove at 6:09 AM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 6:09 AM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
we all think punctuality is a courtesy, but this attitude had to be created. Once upon a time demanding punctuality would have been the rude position
Eh, if you'd been told the king wanted to talk to you after matins, you'd probably better have turned up after matins. It's more that the widespread adoption of personal timekeeping devices made it possible for these demands to be more precise and diffused downwards in the social hierarchy; meanwhile, the use of timekeeping in social institutions made it more necessary to accomplish things even in social groups of peers. I mean, if you're coming over to my house "around 6" to watch TV and order some pizza, do I much care if you turn up at 6 pm or 6:30? No, I do not, at least until I get hangry. The TV is on demand (new development!) and the pizza is any time. But if we're seeing a movie or catching a train somewhere, the half hour affects our ability to do the thing together.
posted by praemunire at 7:50 AM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Eh, if you'd been told the king wanted to talk to you after matins, you'd probably better have turned up after matins. It's more that the widespread adoption of personal timekeeping devices made it possible for these demands to be more precise and diffused downwards in the social hierarchy; meanwhile, the use of timekeeping in social institutions made it more necessary to accomplish things even in social groups of peers. I mean, if you're coming over to my house "around 6" to watch TV and order some pizza, do I much care if you turn up at 6 pm or 6:30? No, I do not, at least until I get hangry. The TV is on demand (new development!) and the pizza is any time. But if we're seeing a movie or catching a train somewhere, the half hour affects our ability to do the thing together.
posted by praemunire at 7:50 AM on October 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Well, the important thing is that everyone is super super mad at each other all the time.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:12 AM on October 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:12 AM on October 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
You're not wrong there.
posted by praemunire at 10:36 AM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 10:36 AM on October 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
if you think your drive should take 20 minutes and there's a delay, it's very stressful, but if you can just accept the situation and maybe sing in the car, then your alert system can come down.
This really tracks with my experience. When I have plans, I'll get a little knot of anxiety about getting ready and being on time, and that knot doesn't go away until it actually gets started. If everything is going smoothly, that knot stays nice and small. But if there are hiccups or if I'm not sure what the actual start time is, it'll really ramp up. So if Bob says 6 pm, but really means 6:30, my system isn't calibrated properly. Once I figure out Bob means 6:30 when they say 6, I can get my expectations recalibrated.
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:02 AM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
This really tracks with my experience. When I have plans, I'll get a little knot of anxiety about getting ready and being on time, and that knot doesn't go away until it actually gets started. If everything is going smoothly, that knot stays nice and small. But if there are hiccups or if I'm not sure what the actual start time is, it'll really ramp up. So if Bob says 6 pm, but really means 6:30, my system isn't calibrated properly. Once I figure out Bob means 6:30 when they say 6, I can get my expectations recalibrated.
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:02 AM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
”…refusing to conform to the norms everyone else conforms to…”
Okay. I have finally mustered up enough energy to bring this up. Is there a way to define “everyone else” in this sentence that isn’t predicated on implicit colonialist assumptions about the behavior of the colonized? I’m struggling a little to find it.
It’s possible it refers to “damn near everyone else around me,” which is probably true for a bunch of people here; hell, I live in place where a bunch of hurried white people fetishizing a notion of efficiency based on a careful and deliberate selection of far too few metrics have established a great deal of norms that are internalized into the culture. It would be mostly true for me. That’s still, on the global scale, a bit different from a more absolute “everyone.”
My point here isn’t to pick on this particular statement as a call-out, even if I find it a bit odious. It’s to mention explicitly that the conversation in here has occasionally taken a contrarian tone I’m a bit uncomfortable with: that literally giving a shit about clocks is the only correct lens through which to view relationships with time, passing value judgement on anyone who comes from a different culture with a different notion of propriety or has a different relationship with time for reasons of their own.
I get anxious about time in the way a bunch of people here are relating. Up a bit I even mentioned how controlling where my attention is pulled was “seizing power.” I sometimes (maybe more than sometimes) struggle with waiting, with patience, with acceptance. I’m acculturated to it and kinda anxious by nature to begin with. Let’s not pretend, though, that the baggage about this I and others were born with, suffer from, and probably perpetuate to this very day is or should be universal.
Ableism-tinged stuff is seeing a lovely pushback above which I appreciate in a very personal way. Maybe, though, it’d be possible to have this conversation without building in assumptions that people ought to live by a narrow subset of particularly Western notions about time, attention, power, and respect?
posted by majick at 1:16 PM on October 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
Okay. I have finally mustered up enough energy to bring this up. Is there a way to define “everyone else” in this sentence that isn’t predicated on implicit colonialist assumptions about the behavior of the colonized? I’m struggling a little to find it.
It’s possible it refers to “damn near everyone else around me,” which is probably true for a bunch of people here; hell, I live in place where a bunch of hurried white people fetishizing a notion of efficiency based on a careful and deliberate selection of far too few metrics have established a great deal of norms that are internalized into the culture. It would be mostly true for me. That’s still, on the global scale, a bit different from a more absolute “everyone.”
My point here isn’t to pick on this particular statement as a call-out, even if I find it a bit odious. It’s to mention explicitly that the conversation in here has occasionally taken a contrarian tone I’m a bit uncomfortable with: that literally giving a shit about clocks is the only correct lens through which to view relationships with time, passing value judgement on anyone who comes from a different culture with a different notion of propriety or has a different relationship with time for reasons of their own.
I get anxious about time in the way a bunch of people here are relating. Up a bit I even mentioned how controlling where my attention is pulled was “seizing power.” I sometimes (maybe more than sometimes) struggle with waiting, with patience, with acceptance. I’m acculturated to it and kinda anxious by nature to begin with. Let’s not pretend, though, that the baggage about this I and others were born with, suffer from, and probably perpetuate to this very day is or should be universal.
Ableism-tinged stuff is seeing a lovely pushback above which I appreciate in a very personal way. Maybe, though, it’d be possible to have this conversation without building in assumptions that people ought to live by a narrow subset of particularly Western notions about time, attention, power, and respect?
posted by majick at 1:16 PM on October 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
majick I'm having a difficult time seeing how "please stop forcing us to wait for you, we're all hungry and would like to eat but you're late so we can't" is an inherently imperialist western evil POV.
In what culture is forcing people to abide by a secret schedule set unilaterally by one person without any consultation or consideration of others an acceptable practice?
Likewise I'm not really seeing how it's even POSSIBLE to have trains or other public transit running on the basis of "meh, one day it might get here, chill out you western imperialist" rather than "the train will arrive at 1000 and leave at 1005."
If you want trains real time seems like the only way to get trains. If you mean "we shouldn't have trains" that's a whole talk all on its own.
I can totally get the notion of "eh, the party will start at like 6ish?" and it's fine if you show up petty much any time after six. There are absolutely situations where relaxed time makes sense and is reasonable.
I just don't get the argument that real time is inherently bad and imperialist.
posted by sotonohito at 8:45 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
In what culture is forcing people to abide by a secret schedule set unilaterally by one person without any consultation or consideration of others an acceptable practice?
Likewise I'm not really seeing how it's even POSSIBLE to have trains or other public transit running on the basis of "meh, one day it might get here, chill out you western imperialist" rather than "the train will arrive at 1000 and leave at 1005."
If you want trains real time seems like the only way to get trains. If you mean "we shouldn't have trains" that's a whole talk all on its own.
I can totally get the notion of "eh, the party will start at like 6ish?" and it's fine if you show up petty much any time after six. There are absolutely situations where relaxed time makes sense and is reasonable.
I just don't get the argument that real time is inherently bad and imperialist.
posted by sotonohito at 8:45 PM on October 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
The way I experience it, if I'm stressed about a late bus it's usually because there's a knock-on effect to being late to something else. Not that I'm defending tardy buses or trains (even if they're a fact of life here). I agree very much having such services be on time is well-appreciated. But I can observe differences in responses when a plane is delayed and it's usually situational. But the larger point is, to me, 'relaxed' timekeeping is a misnomer. The timekeeping is happening, but not chained to the clock and the clock alone. There also other customs/cultural habits that are packaged together too, that will optimize strict clockwatching. The mistake is thinking they're themselves not changeable. Like, why wait for the whole party to arrive to start to eat? But that kind of expectation is normal for some groupings, I get it.
posted by cendawanita at 9:28 PM on October 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:28 PM on October 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
You have frequent trains because that's a public good so it doesn't matter if you miss one... but beyond that I am horrified at the idea of most of life being as scheduled as a train. There is (or in my ideal society should be) room for slack.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:57 PM on October 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:57 PM on October 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
sotonohito - if you can't understand why certain people in this thread are remarking that much of the discussion here has been implicitly rooted in a colonialist/Western-centric framework... consider that perhaps it's because you may be entrenched in such a cultural framework, with all its underlying assumptions, to the point of not being able to imagine/consider other perspectives and frameworks.
So much of the discussion in this thread is built on a lot of assumptions about time, about the way societies work, about professionalism, about families, about culture - that not all non-white / non-Western people share. And I understand - it's because many of us here in this thread come from a very Western-centric, white-centric culture and perspective. For many of us in this thread, this framework is all we've ever known. But I hope you can consider that for some of us in this thread - it isn't a framework we wholly identify with, but rather a framework that has been imposed on us by those in power, and a framework at odds with cultures / communities / countries we come from. We are familiar with how your framework works because we have had to navigate, learn and adapt to your framework - alongside finding ways to reconcile that with other cultural modes of being, other cultural modes of time that are also part of us (and our families, and communities). And yes, we can function on these other definitions and social understanding of time too, not just the one you know. We are not less efficient (in fact, we can be more efficient in some respects). We are not less professional. We aren't lazy. We don't "steal" each other's time.
I'm having a difficult time seeing how "please stop forcing us to wait for you, we're all hungry and would like to eat but you're late so we can't" is an inherently imperialist western evil POV.
In what culture is forcing people to abide by a secret schedule set unilaterally by one person without any consultation or consideration of others an acceptable practice?
This feels like strawmanning. I think cendawanita has alluded to how this does not necessarily look/play out how you think it does in certain cultures.
I just don't get the argument that real time is inherently bad and imperialist.
I think our definitions of "real time" may differ, and I don't think it's fair to imply that one's culture's time, and treatment of time is more "real" than another. (In fact - if you're trying to understand where the colonialist thinking is in all this - this sentence in itself is a pretty simple example. Who gets to say which people, which culture, which community is "real"? When you tell a non-white person their community's understanding and treatment of time is less "real" than yours - you're reproducing and echoing centuries of colonialist language and framing.)
---
initially, i didn't want to comment in this thread because i didn't (still don't, to some extent) have the mental/emotional resources to comment/engage. it can be exhausting to try to engage in discussions of these themes here given the site demographic. i am not sure if i will comment more in this thread, but please - if you don't understand why majick is saying what he's saying, maybe try to listen, try to read more, try to understand. listen to wierdo, listen to cendawanita - try to hold space (and time) for communities and people who may not be like you.
posted by aielen at 1:22 AM on October 14, 2022 [19 favorites]
So much of the discussion in this thread is built on a lot of assumptions about time, about the way societies work, about professionalism, about families, about culture - that not all non-white / non-Western people share. And I understand - it's because many of us here in this thread come from a very Western-centric, white-centric culture and perspective. For many of us in this thread, this framework is all we've ever known. But I hope you can consider that for some of us in this thread - it isn't a framework we wholly identify with, but rather a framework that has been imposed on us by those in power, and a framework at odds with cultures / communities / countries we come from. We are familiar with how your framework works because we have had to navigate, learn and adapt to your framework - alongside finding ways to reconcile that with other cultural modes of being, other cultural modes of time that are also part of us (and our families, and communities). And yes, we can function on these other definitions and social understanding of time too, not just the one you know. We are not less efficient (in fact, we can be more efficient in some respects). We are not less professional. We aren't lazy. We don't "steal" each other's time.
I'm having a difficult time seeing how "please stop forcing us to wait for you, we're all hungry and would like to eat but you're late so we can't" is an inherently imperialist western evil POV.
In what culture is forcing people to abide by a secret schedule set unilaterally by one person without any consultation or consideration of others an acceptable practice?
This feels like strawmanning. I think cendawanita has alluded to how this does not necessarily look/play out how you think it does in certain cultures.
I just don't get the argument that real time is inherently bad and imperialist.
I think our definitions of "real time" may differ, and I don't think it's fair to imply that one's culture's time, and treatment of time is more "real" than another. (In fact - if you're trying to understand where the colonialist thinking is in all this - this sentence in itself is a pretty simple example. Who gets to say which people, which culture, which community is "real"? When you tell a non-white person their community's understanding and treatment of time is less "real" than yours - you're reproducing and echoing centuries of colonialist language and framing.)
---
initially, i didn't want to comment in this thread because i didn't (still don't, to some extent) have the mental/emotional resources to comment/engage. it can be exhausting to try to engage in discussions of these themes here given the site demographic. i am not sure if i will comment more in this thread, but please - if you don't understand why majick is saying what he's saying, maybe try to listen, try to read more, try to understand. listen to wierdo, listen to cendawanita - try to hold space (and time) for communities and people who may not be like you.
posted by aielen at 1:22 AM on October 14, 2022 [19 favorites]
I am an academic and use Microsoft Bookings to allow people to self-schedule meetings. I like it because I can put parameters around when my available time is (e.g. just Tuesday afternoons, or all day Thursday, or whatever), and it updates in real time against my Outlook calendar. Cuts down tremendously on the back-and-forth emails.
For multi-person scheduling, people at my university seem to gravitate toward Doodle (faculty/staff) or When2Meet (students). Both decent but do not hold time on your calendar, and sometimes it takes so long for one person to respond that the slots I selected get booked. up. That is a people problem, not a technology problem, though.
posted by basalganglia at 5:28 AM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
For multi-person scheduling, people at my university seem to gravitate toward Doodle (faculty/staff) or When2Meet (students). Both decent but do not hold time on your calendar, and sometimes it takes so long for one person to respond that the slots I selected get booked. up. That is a people problem, not a technology problem, though.
posted by basalganglia at 5:28 AM on October 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
aielen, thank you for posting a fantastic comment with important context. I appreciate it very much.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:53 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 5:53 AM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
You have frequent trains because that's a public good so it doesn't matter if you miss one... but beyond that I am horrified at the idea of most of life being as scheduled as a train. There is (or in my ideal society should be) room for slack.
I'm a pretty run by the clock kind of person, but I hated working in a clinical setting because of how scheduled it was. Throw in people showing up two hour early wanting to be seen right away and people running late for various reasons, some of whom still wanting to be seen as soon as they show up, I was in a schedule hell. If I'd been in a setting where people showed up and we're also consistently willing to wait, I'd probably still have felt a bit on edge, but it would have been a million times better.
A little extra patience would have also probably gotten me an extra 20-30 minutes a day back: the bus ran late just often enough that I'd show up to work 30 minutes early and twiddle my thumbs in stead of 5 minutes early and risk being late once a month.
When everyone isn't running by the clock, then there's slack in the system. The clock is what lets us "optimize" to the breaking point.
Honestly, my preference when I throw a party is to have it open house style: people coming and going as they please. It means I get more one on one time with people.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:27 AM on October 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm a pretty run by the clock kind of person, but I hated working in a clinical setting because of how scheduled it was. Throw in people showing up two hour early wanting to be seen right away and people running late for various reasons, some of whom still wanting to be seen as soon as they show up, I was in a schedule hell. If I'd been in a setting where people showed up and we're also consistently willing to wait, I'd probably still have felt a bit on edge, but it would have been a million times better.
A little extra patience would have also probably gotten me an extra 20-30 minutes a day back: the bus ran late just often enough that I'd show up to work 30 minutes early and twiddle my thumbs in stead of 5 minutes early and risk being late once a month.
When everyone isn't running by the clock, then there's slack in the system. The clock is what lets us "optimize" to the breaking point.
Honestly, my preference when I throw a party is to have it open house style: people coming and going as they please. It means I get more one on one time with people.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:27 AM on October 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Repent, Harlequin
posted by Devoidoid at 12:53 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Devoidoid at 12:53 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m surprised no one has brought up Oliver Burkeman’s (previously) Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals, which touches on many of these topics, like the tyranny of the calendar and clock and the transition from pre-industrial societies, the idea that time is a resource that must be spent efficiently and can be stolen from us by others, etc. I highly recommend it.
posted by mubba at 1:43 PM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mubba at 1:43 PM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Concerts start when they start.It’s funny you should mention this in particular, since my experience with concerts is that this is true, but “when they start” is whenever the artist damned well feels like taking the stage.
For people who have difficulty seeing how our implementation of time (more accurate to say, our implementation of timekeeping devices) is an odd and often forced bit of coercive conformity, consider the way some other innovations have impacted our lives. How many times have you been in a shopping mall or other public venue and wondered how the hell people didn’t lose each other all the time before text messages and cell phones, or how people got where they were going before ubiquitous online navigation? Would you ever go back to having to have your ass on the couch at a precise minute to watch a single episode of television, and holding your biological needs until the show’s writers felt like taking a pause? The trend in all these things is being able to negotiate our engagement with things more fluidly and reactively to the demands of the moment. We invented things to solve particular coordination problems in particular ways, but it’s not as if those problems were just completely unsolved for want of the modern solutions.
Go back further and ask yourself what people did before ubiquitous timekeeping devices, which are older and therefore taken for granted much more thoroughly. Nobody just starved. Perhaps someone rang a bell when dinner was ready and everyone understood that those in earshot were not necessarily a uniform distance from the dinner table, or in a position to instantly drop what they were doing. There was no “well you should have planned to be done with your work fifteen minutes earlier!” Other people accommodated the uncertainty.
Consider that rules of etiquette insisting everyone must begin eating at the same instant, that food is served to everyone in set “courses,” or that it is rude to begin eating before everyone is seated might have been invented by the great and the good to differentiate themselves from the rough peasant classes. They had the luxury of indolence by which they could retire after tea and begin dressing for dinner so as to be ready and waiting at roughly the appropriate time. They also had tea so normally no one was ravenous by the dinner hour anyway. Making sure dinner arrived just after everyone was present and seated was Cook’s problem.
Of course there are always events that benefit from synchronization between people who cannot coordinate directly, and which benefit more from more accurate synchronization. People executing a military assault or a bank heist got by without watches (“go when you hear gunshots” is a tried and true method), but all else being equal the guys with the watches will be more effective than the guys without them.
What is less clear is why some people get extremely incensed when someone is coming over for dinner “at six” and doesn’t show up until 6:02 due to underestimating traffic or having the cat vomit on the floor just as they’re walking out. Situations like that do not fit the “you don’t respect my time” pattern at all, but obsessively clock-driven people love to pull that out on others. It’s in fact quite the opposite: their time is just so all-consumingly valuable and important that your tragically unmechanistic human existence is an insult and a waste of their Very Valuable Time. It seems even more domineering when we have such rich tools at our disposal for communicating revised expectations.
I have always both understood the need for clocks in some situations and also despised the tyranny of them. If I invite someone over and it isn’t to go to a movie theater or the airport (where, obviously, a shared facility must operate on a hard schedule), it’s always “about six-thirty.” If I’m spending the evening with someone they deserve a large enough budget of my time that some flexibility is no problem. I won’t make or order a dish that will be utterly ruined by a ten, fifteen or even thirty minute delay. I own a refrigerator on one hand, and an oven with a “keep warm” feature on the other. I can, as a genuine grown-ass adult, eat a little snack so there is no risk of becoming “hangry” within a reasonable timeframe, and if the timeframe becomes unreasonable I can just go ahead and eat while still keeping food cold or warm as appropriate for the guest.
I have never understood why this would not be entirely normal. The precise time-driven approach seems much more an exercise in objectifying the human beings with whom one is ostensibly building social bonds. When someone always arrives far later than expected, particularly without communicating, you weigh that against the value of the social relationship and ask yourself whether it’s worth it, same as we all do with myriad minor personality quirks we all exhibit. Placing precise quartz-driven timeliness on a pedestal as a particularly unforgivable trait to lack strikes me as an odd hill to die on.
posted by gelfin at 6:09 PM on October 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
With all the trackable devices most of us carry around, I don’t see why some website or app (Facebook, say) couldn’t establish a feature where people hosting an event could register that event and up to 50 so of their invited guests could give the site permission to track them for 45 minutes before and 45 minutes after the scheduled start time and display the results on a map that the host would have password protected access to, so that they could project when their guests were likely to actually arrive. And send messages to individual guests as they saw fit too, perhaps. And it should be pretty easy to tell when particular guests weren’t going to show up at all, which would reduce host anxiety, or when they were lost nearby and help them find you.
You'd have to develop a way of keeping the site from tracking people before the time started and after it ran out, but that seems surmountable.
posted by jamjam at 1:58 AM on October 17, 2022
You'd have to develop a way of keeping the site from tracking people before the time started and after it ran out, but that seems surmountable.
posted by jamjam at 1:58 AM on October 17, 2022
You'd have to develop a way of keeping the site from tracking people before the time started and after it ran out, but that seems surmountable.
....how?! Given that you'd have to have account IDs for all of them and you're enabling tracking permissions on everyone, and given that geolocation and user ID profile data is valuable and tech companies are not required in any way to be transparent about user monitoring.... I'd have to have a lot of faith in the developer and a clear understanding of a long term profit model that was not dependent on investor funding to touch that with a twelve foot pole.
I am also kind of bewildered at why this would be easier than just... checking in if individual people don't turn up when asked. Especially for a party hosted at your home: it seems to me that there are few places to wait in more comfort if someone is waylaid, and if it's a dinner party or something and there's an unexpected and significant delay, there's no reason not to start eating and just keep a plate warm. Why is it important to know exactly where individual people you know are at any given time?
In general, I tend to think about conflicts over timekeeping as happening over two dimensions: one is about the perceived lack of respect signaled (to some people) by lateness, and one is about the real costs to the on-time party incurred by late arrivals. Those costs are intensely contextual, is the thing, and airy examples tend to gloss over them in one extreme or another in a way that I think leads to people talking past one another while they spend a bunch of time arguing about the perceived respect aspect.
That perceived respect piece is, of course, purely cultural, but I often find that people have a hard time dropping it when they talk about timekeeping. In general, I am interested in the comments of other folks commenting from different "time cultures" (thank you, cendawanita, majick, ailen), because that strikes me as the most interesting way to interrogate how timekeeping could look: people are pretty much always going to be pissed off by asymmetrical costs, but changing the perceptions of respect (and, potentially, deference) associated with timekeeping shows us more about what is possible.
Timekeeping is intimately entangled with power hierarchies in my culture. I am always delighted to sit and listen to other people tell me how they conceive of and respect timekeeping, because that tells me more about the potential spaces that my home culture could develop into: what works for others, and why?
posted by sciatrix at 12:58 PM on October 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
....how?! Given that you'd have to have account IDs for all of them and you're enabling tracking permissions on everyone, and given that geolocation and user ID profile data is valuable and tech companies are not required in any way to be transparent about user monitoring.... I'd have to have a lot of faith in the developer and a clear understanding of a long term profit model that was not dependent on investor funding to touch that with a twelve foot pole.
I am also kind of bewildered at why this would be easier than just... checking in if individual people don't turn up when asked. Especially for a party hosted at your home: it seems to me that there are few places to wait in more comfort if someone is waylaid, and if it's a dinner party or something and there's an unexpected and significant delay, there's no reason not to start eating and just keep a plate warm. Why is it important to know exactly where individual people you know are at any given time?
In general, I tend to think about conflicts over timekeeping as happening over two dimensions: one is about the perceived lack of respect signaled (to some people) by lateness, and one is about the real costs to the on-time party incurred by late arrivals. Those costs are intensely contextual, is the thing, and airy examples tend to gloss over them in one extreme or another in a way that I think leads to people talking past one another while they spend a bunch of time arguing about the perceived respect aspect.
That perceived respect piece is, of course, purely cultural, but I often find that people have a hard time dropping it when they talk about timekeeping. In general, I am interested in the comments of other folks commenting from different "time cultures" (thank you, cendawanita, majick, ailen), because that strikes me as the most interesting way to interrogate how timekeeping could look: people are pretty much always going to be pissed off by asymmetrical costs, but changing the perceptions of respect (and, potentially, deference) associated with timekeeping shows us more about what is possible.
Timekeeping is intimately entangled with power hierarchies in my culture. I am always delighted to sit and listen to other people tell me how they conceive of and respect timekeeping, because that tells me more about the potential spaces that my home culture could develop into: what works for others, and why?
posted by sciatrix at 12:58 PM on October 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
people are pretty much always going to be pissed off by asymmetrical costs
I don’t disagree with this statement, nor with the entire comment. I’m nodding along, as I often am when we cross paths in a thread. However I feel obligated to mention that the very framework of examining these exchanges in the context of “cost” might be a source of friction in and of itself, perhaps rooted in something cultural about individualism and disincentivized empathy.
In any case, my own value as an instrument of interrogating this problem space is perhaps limited: I’m acculturated to the prevailing “time standard” in the Western world by a couple of generations of assimilation following a few generations of colonization. Most of the ethnic influence of my ancestral time cultures are second order effect, as it might be in many people of mixed heritages of varying rates of Westernization. It’s just magnified by non-ethnic factors — ND, several disparate threads of countercultural influences, regional stuff, life phase, chosen family; that kind of thing.
Always happy to have those conversations, though.
posted by majick at 6:43 AM on October 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don’t disagree with this statement, nor with the entire comment. I’m nodding along, as I often am when we cross paths in a thread. However I feel obligated to mention that the very framework of examining these exchanges in the context of “cost” might be a source of friction in and of itself, perhaps rooted in something cultural about individualism and disincentivized empathy.
In any case, my own value as an instrument of interrogating this problem space is perhaps limited: I’m acculturated to the prevailing “time standard” in the Western world by a couple of generations of assimilation following a few generations of colonization. Most of the ethnic influence of my ancestral time cultures are second order effect, as it might be in many people of mixed heritages of varying rates of Westernization. It’s just magnified by non-ethnic factors — ND, several disparate threads of countercultural influences, regional stuff, life phase, chosen family; that kind of thing.
Always happy to have those conversations, though.
posted by majick at 6:43 AM on October 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
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For as much as the author talks about power, they seem unable to grasp right here in this sentence that constant lateness is also a power move on the part of those who engage in it. It's someone signaling, "I can make you wait around for me if it's convenient for my own needs, because I don't think your time matters in the way my time does". I don't give a fuck about an argument about "discipline", it's about common decency and believing that other humans are as human as you are and don't exist as props in a story where you're the main character.
It's exactly the same kind of shit as people high up in hierarchies who save themselves time and effort by refusing to conform to the norms everyone else conforms to, which only "works" because someone else is being forced to pick up the slack to deal with it.
posted by a faithful sock at 5:52 AM on October 12, 2022 [66 favorites]