For moderates, conservatives, undecideds, and anyone else in the middle

October 29, 2022 6:48 PM

Duty to Warn, an association of mental health professionals that speaks out about Trumpism, has released an eleven-minute preview version of their soon-to-be released documentary #UNTRUTH, a follow-up to their 2020 documentary Unfit: The Psychology of Donald Trump.
posted by orange swan (32 comments total)

A decent law abiding nation would have bugged this man 24/7 long ago.
posted by clavdivs at 8:25 PM on October 29, 2022 [7 favorites]

He got a million people killed, tried a coup, and stole nuclear secrets. Who is this undecided person? Their head must be the size of a peanut.
posted by adept256 at 9:13 PM on October 29, 2022 [35 favorites]

i commend their efforts and the documentary looks well made but it’s too late at this point. if you still support trump it’s because you live in a different space of facts than the real one. you have a different reality and being confronted with the actual reality is just going to make you mad. and if you are “undecided” at this point that just means your brain is perfectly smooth and by the way did you know that they’re selling shares in the brooklyn bridge, i can help you invest.
posted by dis_integration at 9:57 PM on October 29, 2022 [9 favorites]

A decent law abiding nation would have bugged this man 24/7 long ago.

We were never that, alas, but I'm still shocked at how successfully he derailed the other rivals for power whose interests I was counting on to counterbalance him. I realize a great many of them, seeing an opportunity, leaped aboard his bandwagon willingly but seemingly without an exit plan or any idea how they were going to steer things or even slow them down when they started getting out of hand.
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:01 PM on October 29, 2022 [7 favorites]

Uh, okay. So after watching that preview, it's pretty obvious that it's not propaganda to make moderates stop supporting Trump, but to reform the image of Republicans so they can appeal to moderates who were already turned off by Trump.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:28 PM on October 29, 2022 [16 favorites]

I don't know what it is. But obviously dis_integration is right: the trumpists are living in a parallel universe, where up is down, good is bad and lies are truths. They won't be convinced by a well-made documentary, they'll just see it as further proof that the elites are lizard people who are out to control them.
It seems like there is going to be a section on how to win your mother back from the claws of conspiracy, but saving one mum at a time is a slow proces, and one that will be cut short if Trump wins again in two years.

I think there is some value in standing together across the aisle against totalitarianism, but as long as most Republicans are cowards and/or totalitarians, that's a long shot.

Anyway, saying that Trump is a totalitarian who exploits weaknesses in the system as well as contemporary communication systems is an improvement over saying that he is a narcissistic psychopath who is unfit to rule. The latter may be true, but it underplays the danger he poses to the USA and the world.
posted by mumimor at 12:03 AM on October 30, 2022 [5 favorites]

So the man at the beginning of the video, the ex-supporter, theoretically can't exist?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:09 AM on October 30, 2022 [2 favorites]

'The government, media, and academia all deny it - that's when I knew I was onto something!'

I think I heard this said on the Knowledge Fight podcast. Hitting people with the facts backfires when they have this mindset. All the effort put into refutations are perceived as more and more desperate attempts at a cover up. That must mean they're getting closer to the real truth! It's frustrating and counterproductive.

From what I understand about getting people out of cults and hate groups - it has to be done individually. If facts worked there wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

I remember an interview with a black fellow who had a collection of dozens of klan-robes. They all belonged to former members who didn't want them anymore. He took this individual approach, all he asked was that they meet him for a chat in a cafe. Sometimes they'd come. He'd listen to their ideas, but he wouldn't challenge them. He'd casually get them to talk about something else. We've all had this kind of conversation, you start off talking about football then you get sidetracked on fly-fishing. You fish too? You should come with me sometime, I know a spot. Then he would give them his number, this was great, I'd love to do it again.

He emphasized that this was different every time. Sometimes they don't come. Sometimes they come with a rant. Sometimes they clam up. Sometimes they don't call back. Sometimes they go fly-fishing with you and you become best friends. It was different every time, but the key was patience, respect, space and presence. And arguing with delusions doesn't work.

The guy has a wardrobe full of klan robes, so he must be onto something. If this reminds anyone, I'd love to see that interview again - he seems like a pretty special guy.

Oh- I must add that it's not your duty to rescue toxic people. You don't owe them anything. If you don't want to engage, that's your right. There's no fault in that.
posted by adept256 at 4:14 AM on October 30, 2022 [25 favorites]

adept256, that's Daryl Davis, a very impressive person. As nearly as I can understand it, he pried people out of the KKK by being a better friend to them than their Klan buddies. See Klandestine Relationships, if you can get hold of a copy.

His work is important, though I haven't heard of anyone else who has operated on the same scale. He's said that he only works with people who are willing to eat with him, so not the most hardened racists. Even so, he's been injured-- I don't have details on that.

Derek Black, son of the founder of Stormfront, left racism and anti-semitism in the course of two years of Sabbath dinners with a Jewish family.

This work can be done. I don't think everyone is obliged to do it, though I wish people would quit saying it's impossible or immoral.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:03 AM on October 30, 2022 [18 favorites]

Identity, connection, a sense of purpose, and answers to questions that point at *them over there* as the cause. Trump and MAGA taps into all of that.

This video, unfortunately, isn't going to reach any of them who are caught up in it.

Unfortunately it is difficult to sit down at a table with someone who feels you are a threat to their existence.

The 11 minutes here don't do that.

This Department of Defense educational video (22 minute YouTube video that is worth your time!), titled, "Don't Be a Sucker", from 1947, is far more illustrative and meant to actually reach across before those needs get satiated by this. Who is producing this kind of content? And who is helping those whose identity and purpose is being fueled by the growing divide? Oh, and if Social Media is a problem in all this.. what is the answer?
posted by kmartino at 5:04 AM on October 30, 2022 [9 favorites]

Kudos to them for trying and I suppose even if they change one mind it is worth it. There isn't really a coherence of thought or ideology behind it, for most, I don't think. My mom has always been driven by bitterness, jealousy, feeling she didn't get what she deserved, etc. (despite being very privileged). I don't talk to her, but I checked out her Facebook feed because I was curious what she would say about the Pelosi attack. She likes Israel because they are bombing muslims. Meloni and women in the Israeli army are girl power. Fetterman apparently supports "abortion tourism." Conservative christians need to take over schools so muslims can't get their garbage in there. She shares dozens of things per day. And the Pelosi attack was terrible, but we have no idea what motivated it. (But she shared a Fox News link and added #foxnews to her post. You were so close to figuring it out, mom!)

I really don't know what the answer could be, aside from trying to build a society where fewer people have this kind of bitterness+entitlement. But obviously, we also need to find some things that will be effective in the short term. I guess channeling the resentment and bitterness towards those who merit it, like billionaires, would be logical, but they've already kind of insulated themselves through their own propaganda machines.
posted by snofoam at 5:24 AM on October 30, 2022 [2 favorites]

Yeah there is absolutely zero amount of facts or articles or twitter threads or documentaries with dramatic "concerning" piano notes and historian talking heads that will ever do jack shit for changing the hearts and minds of conservatives and many undecideds.

It's all the same "look how awful and hypocritical they are!!! Look how AUTHORITARIAN and RACIST they are!!" stuff over and over - it's not that it's wrong or incorrect, and it's probably fine for galvanizing people who already have liberal-left tendencies? But to everyone else this kind of thing comes off like dumb hysteria, a silly culture war that they are at worst having a fucking blast being on the antagonizing side (ie right wing shitheads who love to "trigger the libs" and are fueled by grievance politics) and at best just find all of it exhausting and negative fear mongering and are wholly disinterested in engaging with any of it, or think they are somehow above it ("undecideds" or people who think "both sides are the same"). I just wouldn't count on this kind of thing for changing hearts and minds, it can't be the only ammo in the chamber.
posted by windbox at 6:20 AM on October 30, 2022 [5 favorites]

I worked at the polls in Toronto's recent election, one which I believe had the lowest turnout in the city's history. I found this really frustrating.

This past Friday I had dinner with a friend and two acquaintances (a woman and two gay men, none who voted), all of whom I assume have similar values to me. Over the course of the dinner I learned that that assumption was incorrect, but more eye-opening to me was discovering why they believed what they believed.

I'd mentioned that while working the polls there was an issue with accessibility at the voting site. The wheelchair accessible entrance was at the opposite end of the building to the voting booth and that to have two different entrances was possibly illegal. One of the men said, "Liberals", which shocked me as I assumed he was liberal.

"What do you mean?" I asked.

"Well, it's ridiculous. So the entrance is 200 feet further away from the other entrance. It's not that big of a deal and people act like it's the end of the world."

I paused a second before explaining to him why it's a big deal: "What you're suggesting is that it's okay for the entrances to be separate, but in doing that, you don't seem to realize that what you're doing is drawing a line. '200 feet is okay.' But what if it was further? What if it was 400 feet? 1000 feet? A different building? A different neighborhood? As soon as we decide it's okay to draw a line, someone has to decide where that line's going to be and everyone is going to have a different idea of what is acceptable. The only way to eliminate this problem is to not have a line and insist on equity — one entrance for everyone."

When explained in this way, the guy capitulated.

As we continued talking, the topic of American politics arose and the topic of Bail Reform came up, which the two men were completely against. "You can't just have criminals out on the street."

It took me a minute of back and forth to understand that these two people didn't really know what Bail Reform was and, at best, only had a cursory understanding of what bail itself was and how it functions. They thought Jail and Prison were synonymous terms and used them interchangeably. When I told them Jail and Prison were different places with different purposes, they told me I was wrong and immediately started googling and were shocked to find out I was correct. These are grown men in their 30s or 40s.

When I explained why bail was unfair and, often, racist, you could literally see them filled with amazement at having something relatively simple explained to them in a way that made them understand something they thought they already understood.

This is my long-winded way of saying that I think many, many people are exactly like those two men: they've made up their minds based on a false belief that they have the facts. When everyone assumes an understanding by all parties as to the foundation of ideas being discussed ("What is bail?") the conversation is often pointless due to one party being misinformed.

Explaining to people how gas prices are decided and showing how they're up around the world, as is inflation, and that it's outside of Biden's power is helpful, but people have to be willing to have the conversation. People who watch Fox and have no other news source will never have that conversation. Fox isn't telling them about inflation in Europe because calming the waters does not increase their bottom line.

Though I obviously have not seen this documentary, I do think it's helpful to have Republicans like Walsh and Steele explaining the difference between "biased but true" and "biased but untrue" because it dismisses the argument that "Of course Fox is biased, but all news is biased, so what's the difference?"

One can argue that the Jan 6 supporters / pro-Trumpers are unreachable and beyond help and that it's pointless to try and reach them, but the alternative isn't "Oh well, idiots are going to idiot." The alternative is you lose your democracy.
posted by dobbs at 7:34 AM on October 30, 2022 [36 favorites]

When I told them Jail and Prison were different places with different purposes, they told me I was wrong and immediately started googling and were shocked to find out I was correct. These are grown men in their 30s or 40s.

I suspect the vast majority of americans have the same misconception.

At best, they see “jail”=“you did some low-level crime and have to serve a short sentence” and “prison”=“you fucked-up big-time and are going away for multiple years”
posted by Thorzdad at 8:43 AM on October 30, 2022 [2 favorites]

Trumpers tend to be paranoid, more than anyone can appreciate who is not paranoid. Trumpers exist thanks to the successful caricature of political correctness and socialism, in order to ridicule and discredit anyone not conservative or right wing. Then a new generation proudly lined up to fit their narrowed description, and soon the left was less about progressive taxation and more committed to anti-capitalism and open borders. The right said, see, we told you. The amazing thing is that they made environmentalism and global concern suddenly disappear by merely changing the subject and controlling the narrative based on emotions.
posted by Brian B. at 9:03 AM on October 30, 2022 [1 favorite]

This is nice and all but who do they think is going to watch it? If you were an Obama supporter, would you have sat through even an 11-minute preview of a film about how he wasn't even really born here and is actually a Muslim?
posted by HotToddy at 9:09 AM on October 30, 2022 [4 favorites]

if you still support trump it’s because you live in a different space of facts than the real one.

When your only two choices are D or G, and you generally favour G's policies and D's policies do not appeal to you, you will most likely vote G, even if you dislike Trump. You will stay quiet because Trump supporters are helping elect the one of two parties that you prefer. Power is power. You might even take a perverse delight at how Trump enrages Ds and those who you think are themselves out of step with reality.

Also important - you probably feel that most of the Trumpist noise is just that, and once your preferred party is elected, the extremist positions will be abandoned or tempered, and anyway for the average G voter, you won't be touched by the extremist stuff. (this is a morally troubling position, but if you can't support most D positions, what's your alternative?)

Thinking that the US can easily find the path out of extremism to moderation and pragmatism within a structurally bipolar political framework is naive. Actually believing that half of the electorate "live[s] in a different space of facts than the real one" is itself nuts.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:35 AM on October 30, 2022 [3 favorites]

Actually believing that half of the electorate "live[s] in a different space of facts than the real one" is itself nuts.

Well, there are degrees of dissociation, aren't there. You can't vote Republican without believing that overturning major supreme court precendents, election denialism and a flattery-based foreign policy "don't matter" or "aren't important," using whatever rationalization you need to justify that. And these things are objectively important.

If you want to vote R and then say that you aren't responsible when women get put in jail for obtaining an abortion, because you just wanted lower taxes and more cops and didn't care about "any of that other stuff" you'd be objectively wrong.
posted by anhedonic at 9:43 AM on October 30, 2022 [8 favorites]

they’re selling shares in the brooklyn bridge, I can help you invest

Friends, please do not make this terrible mistake. Such an old and heavily used structure will be financially prohibitive to maintain. Instead, I offer a limited run of official licensed NFTs of the Brooklyn Bridge, endorsed by New York City Council and retinally autographed by the Mayor. For a small surcharge, enclose and protect it in one of our bespoke handmade virtual picture frames.
posted by CynicalKnight at 9:45 AM on October 30, 2022 [22 favorites]

You can't vote Republican without believing that overturning major supreme court precedents, election denialism and a flattery-based foreign policy "don't matter" or "aren't important," using whatever rationalization you need to justify that.

I suspect that many GOP supporters can actually do just that - rationalize that those named things won't harm the nation, and/or them personally. Look at the GDP!/s

Even more important, if you dislike Ds or disagree with many D positions, you cannot bring yourself to vote for them. Neither party offers a moderate, pragmatic, compromise-seeking outlook.

If you want to vote R and then say that you aren't responsible when women get put in jail for obtaining an abortion, because you just wanted lower taxes and more cops and didn't care about "any of that other stuff" you'd be objectively wrong.

Or maybe you believe that the structure of government will heal things: eg that the federal government will legislate the right to abortions, deciding the question once and for all, instead of balancing on the knife edge of a SCOTUS precedent.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:57 AM on October 30, 2022

My neighbor is a flaming racist, hard core Trump guy and Q-follower, who is basically housebound due to various health issues and thus spends all day nosing around the worst right-wing corners of the Internet. He started e-mailing me screeds from his various "sources" while urging me to "do your research" during the 2016 election cycle. I would then dig up actual statistics from, say, the Bureau of Economic Analysis or the Department of the Census, and use them to refute his points, doing my best to respond in a respectful way. Sometimes this work took hours. 30 seconds after I hit "Send," he'd reply that my data proved nothing because Obama was president yadda yadda. After Trump's election, my data proved nothing because deep state. Any independent data was also inherently untrustworthy for reasons. I gave up years ago when I figured out that he thought not that I was misguided, but that I was a lesser human at best and possibly actually evil (though I still bake him the occasional treat, so perhaps I'm not all bad, though he has "jokingly" asked me if I spit on the food).

But before retiring, this guy was Chief of Detectives for a major city. I shudder to think how many innocent people he put away given his inability to conduct the simplest analysis and his reliance on his "beliefs" over impartial evidence, as well as his hatred of BIPOC persons and distain for LGBTQ people.

Even if we salvage democracy and restore the rights undermined by the GOP, I don't know how to pry people like my neighbor out of positions where they can continue harm others in ways large and small. They'll be in place for years, seething. Spitting on food is the least of it.
posted by carmicha at 10:15 AM on October 30, 2022 [11 favorites]

Neither party offers a moderate, pragmatic, compromise-seeking outlook.

This is literally a description of Joe Biden and 3/4 of democrats in office.
posted by snofoam at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2022 [24 favorites]

This is literally a description of Joe Biden and 3/4 of democrats in office.

I don't disagree about Biden, and I don't know enough about most other elected office-holders. Clearly, those other elected officials won their elections. There are more than a few pragmatic and moderate GOP office-holders too.

But the parties... it's too easy to paint the other party with its extremes. So the GOP is Trumpism to Democrats, and to Republicans the Dems are Bernie Sanders and The Squad.

Difference being that Trumpism is still a vote-getter, and the "fringe" Democratic positions aren't, by comparison. Yet.

This will change... eventually.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:51 AM on October 30, 2022

Friends, please do not make this terrible mistake. Such an old and heavily used structure will be financially prohibitive to maintain. Instead, I offer a limited run of official licensed NFTs of the Brooklyn Bridge, endorsed by New York City Council and retinally autographed by the Mayor. For a small surcharge, enclose and protect it in one of our bespoke handmade virtual picture frames.

GOLD. How does this comment not have 87,000 likes already?
posted by LooseFilter at 10:54 AM on October 30, 2022 [3 favorites]

But the parties... it's too easy to paint the other party with its extremes. So the GOP is Trumpism to Democrats, and to Republicans the Dems are Bernie Sanders and The Squad.

The Republican party is seen as extreme because they are in reality doing all kinds of extreme stuff, from refusing to advise on SC nominee to fomenting an insurrection. It's stuff that actually has happened, right here in the real world.

Republicans "paint" the Democratic party with extremes like Obama not being a citizen, Hillary selling children, inventing a pandemic to control the population, etc. If you are willing to believe any lie that is sold to you, then of course this will make it easy cultivate an extreme view.

On a practical level, the GOP is Trumpism. The party is fairly united behind him. On a practical level, the Democratic party is basically centrists like Biden, Pelosi and Schumer, with a handful of Bernies and AOCs that all-together have less actual power than one Manchin.
posted by snofoam at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2022 [19 favorites]

So the GOP is Trumpism to Democrats, and to Republicans the Dems are Bernie Sanders and The Squad.

It's darkly hilarious that you (and many other Americans) talk about these as though they're equal and opposite extremes. One is conspiracy theories, corruption, hate, and attempts to subvert elections - and one is moderately progressive policies that are only seen as far left in the USA because the country is so far right.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:39 AM on October 30, 2022 [30 favorites]

On a practical level, the GOP is Trumpism. The party is fairly united behind him. On a practical level, the Democratic party is basically centrists like Biden, Pelosi and Schumer, with a handful of Bernies and AOCs that all-together have less actual power than one Manchin.

All these are further arguments why the US-style two-party system is problematic.

When there's only two party choices, electability becomes more potent than policy. And don't tell me that Trump has strong policies. They are first and foremost, Trump is for Trump. Beyond that, the usual desires of a capitalist plutocrat... and beyond that, he's lied and pandered to just about any GOP-friendly group no matter how fringe who will get behind him. His success at that has given him out-sized influence over the GOP party. He has the power to primary and otherwise sink any GOP politician who doesn't kiss his arse.

If there were more than two political parties, and an electorate that was more influenced by policy than by allegiance... Trump would not have the power he currently has.

It's darkly hilarious that you (and many other Americans) talk about these as though they're equal and opposite extremes.

I've never said that. Nor do I think that. Only that the two-party system makes such polarization so effective, whether there's moral or political equivalance or not.

(I'll butt out, unless specifically asked to reply. I'm not American, my perspective is from outside, and I don't see any sense or utility in a "half of Americans are evil/amoral" approach. )
posted by Artful Codger at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2022 [1 favorite]

Multiparty systems have not necessarily proven to be more effective at keeping out assholes and autocrats. I think a big question is whether there are systemic changes outside of politics that are enabling an autocratic shift. (E.g., media fragmentation, social media, oligopoly influence consolidation, etc.)
posted by snofoam at 11:55 AM on October 30, 2022 [2 favorites]

I think a big question is whether there are systemic changes outside of politics that are enabling an autocratic shift. (E.g., media fragmentation, social media, oligopoly influence consolidation, etc

Agreed to all that; I do think that those other influences have rendered the US system more vulnerable to capture by extremists. And that globally, liberalism is not winning. Still, one must acknowledge systemic vulnerabilities.

(-sigh- ok now I'm out)
posted by Artful Codger at 12:02 PM on October 30, 2022

The point was that The Squad aren't extreme left by global standards. On any range of issues, maternity, minimum wage, universal healthcare, prescription drug subsidies, gun control. These are all solved problems with many examples if you care to look beyond your borders.

Fire breathing pterodactyls aren't machine-gunning people on the streets of Sydney or Berlin because insulin is affordable, believe it or not. The problem in America is that many see that as the logical end point if The Squad have their 'extreme left' agenda enacted.
posted by adept256 at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2022 [11 favorites]

It's a little bit bewildering how many people think there ought to be a 'moderate' middle party, and when pressed on what policies that party would hold, just end up describing the Democrats (see: Andrew Yang's 'forward party').
posted by Pyry at 1:08 PM on October 30, 2022 [18 favorites]

It's a little bit bewildering how many people think there ought to be a 'moderate' middle party

It's a spoiler candidate problem in need of a run-off election that demands over half the vote to win. In America we have various tiny socialist and anti-government parties on each ballot usually, but people know it is a wasted vote by the simple tally method used. If we had a run-off style system, more competitive parties would likely be created organically without much consideration of avoiding overlap to the others. Such a system would take power away from the largest parties to pre-select for us.
posted by Brian B. at 7:51 AM on October 31, 2022 [1 favorite]