Guaranteed to infuriate and/or delight
November 13, 2022 7:40 AM Subscribe
All 240 Artists in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Ranked From Best to Worst by Bill Wyman (the journalist, not the bassist in the Rolling Stones) in Vulture, takes a long, hard look at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductees and ranks them. Originally written in 2018, it's been updated to include this year's RRHoF class.
Interspersed with his evaluations Wyman includes comments from the nominating committee (some anonymously) and hall voters regarding the selection and inclusion of certain artists.
Interspersed with his evaluations Wyman includes comments from the nominating committee (some anonymously) and hall voters regarding the selection and inclusion of certain artists.
Your favorite band sucks *in comparison to other bands*
posted by kerf at 8:12 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kerf at 8:12 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I really feel like they should title articles like this “only read if you just want to be angry all day” Because well there is a lot of point here about the aggressive commercialization of the rock ‘n’ roll Hall of Fame and what a ridiculous concept a rock ‘n’ roll Hall of Fame is - The idea that one person can rank the appropriateness of the choices like this just reinforces how ridiculous of a concept rock ‘n’ roll Hall of Fame even is. If you’re gonna talk about what a ridiculous concept is I don’t think you get to then try and justify who would or would not be included in your own fictional Hall of Fame that exists in your own brain. Either decide the concept is ridiculous and talk shit about it or write your ranking list you don’t get to do both.
posted by FritoKAL at 8:19 AM on November 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by FritoKAL at 8:19 AM on November 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
He describes Yes as “inexcusable”, Zappa as “unlistenable”, and dismisses prog rock as “a dumb idea”. And even though I like The Ramones, #7 is way too high. So my takeaway from this article is that I don’t really agree with Bill Wyman about music.
posted by TedW at 8:36 AM on November 13, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by TedW at 8:36 AM on November 13, 2022 [25 favorites]
Bill Wyman wrote an interesting piece several years ago in which he poses as Mick Jagger answering to Keith Richards' autobiography. It's perfect. This is...quite less than that.
posted by Ber at 8:44 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Ber at 8:44 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Every one of these listicles is there to prop up the business because ad revenue is dropping like a stone. They’re not worthy of metafilter and they’re barely worthy of being published in whatever publication has them this week.
posted by The River Ivel at 8:50 AM on November 13, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 8:50 AM on November 13, 2022 [23 favorites]
Listicles still suck, but at least this one is in non-reverse (obverse?) order and thus avoids the tiresome "countdown" cliche of most listicles. And I liked this observation from Bowie's entry: "It’s obvious that the hall has a tacit discomfort with stars who don’t inhabit traditional male rock-star roles — and male stars who sleep with men, too." Mostly, I just don't care about the R&RHOF enough to go through the entire thing; it's the sort of thing that I might pop into if/when I ever get to Cleveland and don't have anything better to do.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:53 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:53 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is this the appropriate venue to say:
INDUCT THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS IN 2023 YOU COWARDS
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:57 AM on November 13, 2022 [32 favorites]
INDUCT THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS IN 2023 YOU COWARDS
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:57 AM on November 13, 2022 [32 favorites]
I suppose this is an argument the author would agree with but just getting to look at the list* in aggregate is so annoying. Like, the understanding of how art happens as suggested by this list is just so insane and wrong. And boring. But wow you really get inundated with the most predictable and over-played with no understanding of impact, influence, transformation.. Overwhelming actually to see the wall of men.
Also U2 does not come before Michael Jackson - or Radiohead! And Van Morrison cannot come before Public Enemy. Shouldn't the people with the most impact/who most changed music get elevated? /my personal hobbyhorse
(*seems incomplete actually? I searched for Quincy Jones and did not find?)
posted by latkes at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2022
Also U2 does not come before Michael Jackson - or Radiohead! And Van Morrison cannot come before Public Enemy. Shouldn't the people with the most impact/who most changed music get elevated? /my personal hobbyhorse
(*seems incomplete actually? I searched for Quincy Jones and did not find?)
posted by latkes at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2022
Bill Wyman wrote an interesting piece several years ago in which he poses as Mick Jagger answering to Keith Richards' autobiography.
Previously on the blue, and my favorite of everything of Wyman's that I've seen.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Previously on the blue, and my favorite of everything of Wyman's that I've seen.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Christ, what an asshole!
posted by Umami Dearest at 9:12 AM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Umami Dearest at 9:12 AM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
FYI, the other Bill Wyman left the Rolling Stones in 1993 (if not before).
posted by stevil at 9:21 AM on November 13, 2022
posted by stevil at 9:21 AM on November 13, 2022
Me: Well, this should be silly and fun....
Bill Wyman: Queen is overrated and terrible and always have been.
Me: Too bad we can't stay!
posted by skullhead at 9:24 AM on November 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
Bill Wyman: Queen is overrated and terrible and always have been.
Me: Too bad we can't stay!
posted by skullhead at 9:24 AM on November 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
My list of best to worst Bill Wymans :
Best: Bill Wyman Bassist
Worst: Bill Wyman Journalist
posted by lobstah at 9:27 AM on November 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
Best: Bill Wyman Bassist
Worst: Bill Wyman Journalist
posted by lobstah at 9:27 AM on November 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
wow. working my way slowly up from the bottom. such hate. much disdain. wow.
like why even bother writing about music? I mean yeah some of these bands have not withstood the test of time lol Journey Chicago etc., but Duran Duran??? fight me! they are actually a great band and have made a lot of great music. I have seen them live and they were da bomb.
I'm still in the 200s but waiting to see if there is a single inductee this dude will have anything positive to say about...
posted by supermedusa at 9:28 AM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
like why even bother writing about music? I mean yeah some of these bands have not withstood the test of time lol Journey Chicago etc., but Duran Duran??? fight me! they are actually a great band and have made a lot of great music. I have seen them live and they were da bomb.
I'm still in the 200s but waiting to see if there is a single inductee this dude will have anything positive to say about...
posted by supermedusa at 9:28 AM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm one up from the bottom, and all I can think of is
Middle of the road
man it stanks
let's run over Lionel Ritchie
with a tank.
posted by Ickster at 9:38 AM on November 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
Middle of the road
man it stanks
let's run over Lionel Ritchie
with a tank.
posted by Ickster at 9:38 AM on November 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
ok he showed proper respect to Nine Inch Nails
posted by supermedusa at 9:45 AM on November 13, 2022
posted by supermedusa at 9:45 AM on November 13, 2022
About two-thirds of the text for the Buddy Holly entry is this weird detour into shitting on Jann Wenner, and has nothing at all about Buddy Holly.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:01 AM on November 13, 2022
posted by Thorzdad at 10:01 AM on November 13, 2022
The kid's clearly too young to be reviewing rock'n'roll, unironically. And whenever the Rock Hall of Fame comes up, I want to share this one-pager from Harvey Pekar, the poet laureate of Cleveland, from his April 2001 issue of American Splendor: Why I haven't visited the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame. Explains why I wouldn't go, either.
posted by Rash at 10:05 AM on November 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Rash at 10:05 AM on November 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
I am confused how you can say the Erasure are a hall of fame band but that Abba are not.
posted by mr_stru at 10:08 AM on November 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by mr_stru at 10:08 AM on November 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
More like Bill, Why man?
posted by Flashman at 10:13 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Flashman at 10:13 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
He ranks KISS over Queen? Come on, dude. KISS blows donkey chunks.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:21 AM on November 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:21 AM on November 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
Search for Duran Duran, see two dismissive comments and realize it's not worth the time to read the rest of the nonsense in the listicle. Swear to never bother looking at another listicle (even though I will inevitably do it anyways)
posted by inthe80s at 10:22 AM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by inthe80s at 10:22 AM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Rush are unique among galumphy prog-rock bands in that they lack a single song (you know, like “Roundabout,” “Court of the Crimson King,” “Freebird,” “The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway”) you could play for someone to try to convince them of the band’s import.
Dude. Your band wrote a song in which your lead singer was getting horny over the transatlantic slave trade in the very first verse.
20. Aretha Franklin (1987)
A singer whose artistry transcends the music. The voice she was born with could pierce glass, and her own technique embellished everything she recorded. A lot of her work isn’t that interesting, but when Ertegun and Atlantic super-producer Jerry Wexler put her together with the right musicians and songs, magic resulted.
Dude. No. What are you even doing.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:26 AM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Dude. Your band wrote a song in which your lead singer was getting horny over the transatlantic slave trade in the very first verse.
20. Aretha Franklin (1987)
A singer whose artistry transcends the music. The voice she was born with could pierce glass, and her own technique embellished everything she recorded. A lot of her work isn’t that interesting, but when Ertegun and Atlantic super-producer Jerry Wexler put her together with the right musicians and songs, magic resulted.
Dude. No. What are you even doing.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:26 AM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Several artists in the list are dismissed because they're not really "Rock and Roll". I think on that basis, there's no place on that list for anything beyond the early 60s, if that.
posted by pipeski at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2022
posted by pipeski at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2022
Reading these comments makes me happy that I was paywalled from reading the list.
posted by charlesminus at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by charlesminus at 10:38 AM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
wow. working my way slowly up from the bottom. such hate. much disdain. wow.
I'm on board with some of it. Lionel Ritchie, Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Journey, Kiss, Duran Duran, Billy Joel, Hall & Oates, Foo Fighters all rated low as they should be.
And yet, I can't help but feel we need such dubiousity in The Hall -- it helps one to dismiss the whole idea of the place as wrongheaded, absurd, foolish rather than get into wrongheaded, absurd, foolish arguments as to why certain personal faves haven't been inducted ...
New York Dolls, MC5, Guess Who, Jethro Tull, Mott The Hoople, Blue Oyster Cult, My Bloody Valentine, Dead Kennedys, Minutemen, Sonic FUCKING Youth come quickly to mind.
Meanwhile, Mr. Wyman (not a former Rolling Stone by the way; I've made that mistake before) is also as WRONG as the Hall in certain places. Dismissing Rush, Deep Purple, Queen as unworthy -- sorry, man. You really need to get out more ...
posted by philip-random at 10:46 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm on board with some of it. Lionel Ritchie, Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Journey, Kiss, Duran Duran, Billy Joel, Hall & Oates, Foo Fighters all rated low as they should be.
And yet, I can't help but feel we need such dubiousity in The Hall -- it helps one to dismiss the whole idea of the place as wrongheaded, absurd, foolish rather than get into wrongheaded, absurd, foolish arguments as to why certain personal faves haven't been inducted ...
New York Dolls, MC5, Guess Who, Jethro Tull, Mott The Hoople, Blue Oyster Cult, My Bloody Valentine, Dead Kennedys, Minutemen, Sonic FUCKING Youth come quickly to mind.
Meanwhile, Mr. Wyman (not a former Rolling Stone by the way; I've made that mistake before) is also as WRONG as the Hall in certain places. Dismissing Rush, Deep Purple, Queen as unworthy -- sorry, man. You really need to get out more ...
posted by philip-random at 10:46 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Opens link. Scrolls to #1. Does not see Kurt Cobain. Closes tab.
Garbage.
And I'm not just saying that because Nirvana was popular during my formative years.
posted by AlSweigart at 10:48 AM on November 13, 2022
Garbage.
And I'm not just saying that because Nirvana was popular during my formative years.
posted by AlSweigart at 10:48 AM on November 13, 2022
Miles Davis? Sure he's great, but Rock?
And Kiss, sure their stupid, but they are clearing rock (even if I think they suck)
"Guaranteed to infuriate" is a great headline.
posted by cccorlew at 10:52 AM on November 13, 2022
And Kiss, sure their stupid, but they are clearing rock (even if I think they suck)
"Guaranteed to infuriate" is a great headline.
posted by cccorlew at 10:52 AM on November 13, 2022
Miles had his more rocking moments (though I don't think they're what he was inducted for).
Wyman makes some good points, especially about the Hall's under-representing queer and queer-signaling artists (and electronic music, and heavy music, and etc.), being quick to honor people who are willing to play nice with the Hall and/or will sell tickets to the induction ceremony, and increasingly turning to popularity as a primary measure of merit. He has some great lines.
That said, I think the overall quality has dropped a little bit with most of the updates, and I feel like he judges people's non-musical bad behavior very inconsistently. On the other hand, I could read him shitting on Jann Wenner and Bon Jovi all day.
posted by box at 11:00 AM on November 13, 2022
Wyman makes some good points, especially about the Hall's under-representing queer and queer-signaling artists (and electronic music, and heavy music, and etc.), being quick to honor people who are willing to play nice with the Hall and/or will sell tickets to the induction ceremony, and increasingly turning to popularity as a primary measure of merit. He has some great lines.
That said, I think the overall quality has dropped a little bit with most of the updates, and I feel like he judges people's non-musical bad behavior very inconsistently. On the other hand, I could read him shitting on Jann Wenner and Bon Jovi all day.
posted by box at 11:00 AM on November 13, 2022
I do agree with Wyman's thoughts on Genesis (#190).
A lot of ‘70s bands evolved: Fleetwood Mac, the Doobies, Roxy. After Gabriel left, Genesis devolved — into a trio of middle-aged frumps who mastered the art of playing fools for MTV kids in the 1980s. Imagine David Lynch leaving Twin Peaks and Aaron Spelling taking over as showrunner. Unfortunately, the hall couldn’t come up with a “Genesis until Wind & Wuthering” induction. Here’s how to do it: Docked ten notches for Abacab, ten more for Duke, and twenty more for the “I Can’t Dance” video.
posted by philip-random at 11:03 AM on November 13, 2022
A lot of ‘70s bands evolved: Fleetwood Mac, the Doobies, Roxy. After Gabriel left, Genesis devolved — into a trio of middle-aged frumps who mastered the art of playing fools for MTV kids in the 1980s. Imagine David Lynch leaving Twin Peaks and Aaron Spelling taking over as showrunner. Unfortunately, the hall couldn’t come up with a “Genesis until Wind & Wuthering” induction. Here’s how to do it: Docked ten notches for Abacab, ten more for Duke, and twenty more for the “I Can’t Dance” video.
posted by philip-random at 11:03 AM on November 13, 2022
It's more fun if you scroll down and read it from the bottom up.
OK, I tried, and I got about five steps up before I confirmed this is just another example of why music critics are even worse than the most nauseating film bro.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:17 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
OK, I tried, and I got about five steps up before I confirmed this is just another example of why music critics are even worse than the most nauseating film bro.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:17 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
INDUCT THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS IN 2023 YOU COWARDS
B-but then THEY WOULD BE GIANTS!
posted by chavenet at 11:47 AM on November 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
B-but then THEY WOULD BE GIANTS!
posted by chavenet at 11:47 AM on November 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
Black Sabbath at #157. Which hall of fame is this again?
posted by swift at 12:04 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by swift at 12:04 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I started at the bottom and almost quit when he slagged ABBA -- sure, not rock (maybe), but certainly seems to have influenced a lot of rockers. But I somehow kept going until he described the Police as "fairly decent musicians" and then I was out.
posted by Slothrup at 12:31 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Slothrup at 12:31 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I liked the listicle more than most of the ilk, not that I agreed with all that much of it, because it wove in those narratives about sexuality and the politics of the Hall throughout. Even reading bottom to top it made sense. He mentions the Hall of Great Singles and in retrospect about half this list could also be moved onto that. I was ok with Rush at the bottom (isn't there also a Hall of Wasted Musicianship?) - so much pretentiousness from so few members - but Queen's ranking is clearly a troll given how he weights cultural currency higher up the list. And wasn't it Freddie's wish to not be outed or exploited? Seems like a weird high horse to get on, considering the molesters, abusers, homophobes, anti-semites, and even murderers, who all get a pass higher up.
posted by Rumple at 12:35 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 12:35 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I haven't finished the whole list yet and I don't agree with a lot of his views or specific objects of love or derision (and don't suspect I would much enjoy his larger critical stances), but I do think some people in thread are maybe missing the larger thing he's going for here. If you read the entries, top to bottom, it's telling the story of the R&R HoF more generally (mostly the bad, which is actually quite interesting and really the actual meat of the article) and ranking the acts based on how closely he believes they match the Hall's OWN CRITERIA for inclusion. Of course it's up for debate, that's the whole thing. Why else even have a Hall of Fame of anything if not for arguing about who should/shouldn't be in it?
posted by StopMakingSense at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by StopMakingSense at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
From the evidence, as this Vulture crap listicle popped up last week among the links right below the Search window on my Chrome splash page, everyone must be posting from their phone these days.
posted by y2karl at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2022
posted by y2karl at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2022
It's paywalled for me, so can anyone tell me where Tom Petty landed?
posted by kiwi-epitome at 12:44 PM on November 13, 2022
posted by kiwi-epitome at 12:44 PM on November 13, 2022
124. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers — Tom Petty, Ron Blair, Mike Campbell, Howie Epstein, Stan Lynch, and Benmont Tench (2002)
Petty wrote “American Girl,” one of the greatest of all rock songs, in addition to his obvious commercial record and passel of decent albums and other tracks. Accident or not, it makes his stature plain after 40 years of reliable, ever-more-inessential rock.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Petty wrote “American Girl,” one of the greatest of all rock songs, in addition to his obvious commercial record and passel of decent albums and other tracks. Accident or not, it makes his stature plain after 40 years of reliable, ever-more-inessential rock.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Alright maybe for 1-5 if we're going by some music historian's taste, but 6 on-wards brought outright laughter. Prince, Ramones, and Nirvana above Pink Floyd, Johnny Cash, REM, Leonard Cohen, NIN, Genesis, David Bowie, and The Police? Very bizarre tastes. LOL
As for my personal tastes, Bob Dylan is the only one of his top 10 who I'd rank highly. I'd rank Rush and Pink Floyd first for my own appreciation, but after that I'd think about if rankings meant some songs I really love vs many songs I like. An awful lot of really great and interesting performers have some work to which I do not acclimate.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:51 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
As for my personal tastes, Bob Dylan is the only one of his top 10 who I'd rank highly. I'd rank Rush and Pink Floyd first for my own appreciation, but after that I'd think about if rankings meant some songs I really love vs many songs I like. An awful lot of really great and interesting performers have some work to which I do not acclimate.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:51 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Tom Petty ranks lower than Tom Waits or Tommy Ramone, but higher than Tom Scholz (Boston has not as yet been inducted to the RRHoF).
posted by box at 12:52 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 12:52 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
His hate for Queen is silly. Elvis should be number one. Once again, Phil Collins, great singer, great songwriter, and let's not pretend that Gabriel didn't also go full pop. Sledgehammer (and the video) are as pop as you can get.
posted by Beholder at 12:55 PM on November 13, 2022
posted by Beholder at 12:55 PM on November 13, 2022
The (original) Allman Brothers Band were not southern rock. The ones who followed and copied them were, except Wet Willie who are an RnB band. Duane led a hippie jam band which, according to Ralph Gleason, played “ jazz for rock fans”.
The Hall? Delaney and Bonnie or STFU.
Terrible article.
posted by aiq at 1:01 PM on November 13, 2022
The Hall? Delaney and Bonnie or STFU.
Terrible article.
posted by aiq at 1:01 PM on November 13, 2022
When popularity is factored in, Queen is the most overrated band in the history of pop music.
What does that even mean? If they were obscure, would that make them underrated? And although fame and popularity are not complete synonyms, there is enough overlap there that I understand a lot of otherwise musically questionable choices that they have made. Although “pop music hall of fame” might be a more accurate moniker. I said above that I don’t have the same musical tastes as Mr. Wyman, but some of this shit is just flat out trolling; much in the vein of this listcicle.
posted by TedW at 1:02 PM on November 13, 2022
What does that even mean? If they were obscure, would that make them underrated? And although fame and popularity are not complete synonyms, there is enough overlap there that I understand a lot of otherwise musically questionable choices that they have made. Although “pop music hall of fame” might be a more accurate moniker. I said above that I don’t have the same musical tastes as Mr. Wyman, but some of this shit is just flat out trolling; much in the vein of this listcicle.
posted by TedW at 1:02 PM on November 13, 2022
I might be mistaken, but I think it means that, all other things being equal, an overrated popular band is more overrated than an overrated non-popular band.
So, for example, Queen is more overrated than the Velvet Underground.
posted by box at 1:11 PM on November 13, 2022
So, for example, Queen is more overrated than the Velvet Underground.
posted by box at 1:11 PM on November 13, 2022
I oddly enjoyed his clearly deliberately acerbic tone. This is not so much "I'm an authority and I'm going to tell you what's what" (e.g., Rolling Stone listicles) but rather "I have my own tastes, and I going to have fun expressing them ways to piss as many people off as I can"
posted by treepour at 1:25 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by treepour at 1:25 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've said it before, but music critics are the most pretentious of writers. Here's a random sentence:
"His work wasn’t entirely non-facile, but it was quite extreme for the time, and his club shows were pretty assaultive."
Not non-facile? Assaultive? Come on.
posted by zardoz at 1:34 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
"His work wasn’t entirely non-facile, but it was quite extreme for the time, and his club shows were pretty assaultive."
Not non-facile? Assaultive? Come on.
posted by zardoz at 1:34 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
think I've finally progressed to the point of not even being curious to look ... and I know +/or assume there must be others ... I only wish there were some kind of positive reinforcement for taking such a path ... there's still some lingering temptation to look but there's just been too much regret over the past month(s) after doing just that with other lists.
all I can say is, music journalists and critics really exist in a separate domain from that of music, there's a culture that has its own internal dynamics and forces and though linked to the world of music, it really is quite distinct ... (someone very respected in music history has made an oft-quoted line about this of course) ... it's one thing to casually know this and still carry on as usual, getting drawn in by those who confuse the two, but then living it takes more awareness and practice.
In other words, one might choose to spend the time listening to much great music that we are all spoiled to have all around us instead of reading about someone else's ideas of this or that or the other thing. Life is very short.
posted by clandestiny's child at 1:38 PM on November 13, 2022
all I can say is, music journalists and critics really exist in a separate domain from that of music, there's a culture that has its own internal dynamics and forces and though linked to the world of music, it really is quite distinct ... (someone very respected in music history has made an oft-quoted line about this of course) ... it's one thing to casually know this and still carry on as usual, getting drawn in by those who confuse the two, but then living it takes more awareness and practice.
In other words, one might choose to spend the time listening to much great music that we are all spoiled to have all around us instead of reading about someone else's ideas of this or that or the other thing. Life is very short.
posted by clandestiny's child at 1:38 PM on November 13, 2022
I might be mistaken, but I think it means that, all other things being equal, an overrated popular band is more overrated than an overrated non-popular band.
There are overrated unknown bands, and there are underrated known bands. But what we don’t know about are the underrated unknown bands.
posted by TedW at 1:48 PM on November 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
There are overrated unknown bands, and there are underrated known bands. But what we don’t know about are the underrated unknown bands.
posted by TedW at 1:48 PM on November 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Known is a really weird word when you see it in print.
posted by TedW at 1:49 PM on November 13, 2022
posted by TedW at 1:49 PM on November 13, 2022
So is fork.
posted by y2karl at 1:50 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 1:50 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
and don't get me started on confabulist
posted by philip-random at 2:05 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 2:05 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, Mr. Wyman (not a former Rolling Stone by the way; I've made that mistake before)
Ha. And now I have. But I stand behind my comments. I don't identify as a Rush Fan, but somewhere, right now, some teenager whose parents weren't even born when Moving Pictures came out is furiously air drumming along to "YYZ."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:12 PM on November 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ha. And now I have. But I stand behind my comments. I don't identify as a Rush Fan, but somewhere, right now, some teenager whose parents weren't even born when Moving Pictures came out is furiously air drumming along to "YYZ."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:12 PM on November 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Rush are unique among galumphy prog-rock bands in that they lack a single song (you know, like “Roundabout,” “Court of the Crimson King,” “Freebird,” “The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway”) you could play for someone to try to convince them of the band’s import.
Um, Tom Sawyer?
That or YYZ are a much better encapsulation of what the point of Rush is then In The Court of the Crimson King is for King Crimson. It's the last song I would pick to represent them off that album, nevermind out of their whole oeuvre.
posted by Dysk at 2:17 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Um, Tom Sawyer?
That or YYZ are a much better encapsulation of what the point of Rush is then In The Court of the Crimson King is for King Crimson. It's the last song I would pick to represent them off that album, nevermind out of their whole oeuvre.
posted by Dysk at 2:17 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
He ranks KISS over Queen? Come on, dude. KISS blows donkey chunks
I kind of get this, however. KISS, who definitely suck (let's be clear about that), have had an influence on rock and roll. They were theatrical before it was really cool. Their concerts were experiences (which is good, because you really didn't want it to be about the music. Which sucked).
That matters.
He does make it clear that it's about more than sales and more than "Quality" that makes you HoF worthy.
Queen... okay, I can't defend that. I like Queen, and I think Your Favorite Band would probably have been better if Freddie Mercury had been the lead singer. That said, I think a problem with the band is that they don't really have a sound. Their iconic song doesn't really sound like anything else they did. No two songs on "A Night At The Opera" sound like they are from the same band. Does that matter? Somehow, I think it matters.
That doesn't mean that Wyman isn't being a punk-ass here.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 2:23 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I kind of get this, however. KISS, who definitely suck (let's be clear about that), have had an influence on rock and roll. They were theatrical before it was really cool. Their concerts were experiences (which is good, because you really didn't want it to be about the music. Which sucked).
That matters.
He does make it clear that it's about more than sales and more than "Quality" that makes you HoF worthy.
Queen... okay, I can't defend that. I like Queen, and I think Your Favorite Band would probably have been better if Freddie Mercury had been the lead singer. That said, I think a problem with the band is that they don't really have a sound. Their iconic song doesn't really sound like anything else they did. No two songs on "A Night At The Opera" sound like they are from the same band. Does that matter? Somehow, I think it matters.
That doesn't mean that Wyman isn't being a punk-ass here.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 2:23 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Yardbirds lacked the Jagger-Richards songwriting juggernaut; their early hits were written by outsiders. But they still had an outsize influence on the music, first with lead guitarist Jeff Beck, who was followed by Eric Clapton
Fact check on aisle 82!
posted by TedW at 2:35 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Fact check on aisle 82!
posted by TedW at 2:35 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I kinda get the sense that Wyman low key hates that he does what he does for a living.
posted by mhoye at 2:53 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mhoye at 2:53 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
He ranks KISS over Queen?
In sixth grade (late seventies), these were the two factions in my school, and being indifferent to both — as I was — was like being neutral on Cavaliers vs Roundheads or Union vs Confederacy or Ecks vs Sever: I was clearly a weirdo.
The Yardbirds lacked the Jagger-Richards songwriting juggernaut; their early hits were written by outsiders. But they still had an outsize influence on the music, first with lead guitarist Jeff Beck, who was followed by Eric Clapton
Fact check on aisle 82!
Yeah, some might mention Jimmy Page here, who followed Beck. Some might even aver that Led Zeppelin (né The New Yardbirds) had some success in their own right. Or indeed Anthony “Top” Topham, Clapton’s predecessor. As I understand it, Topham was a few years younger than the rest and had to bow out because when they first began achieving a bit of success, he was like fifteen years old. I imagine he couldn’t go on Top of the Pops because he had calculus homework due. Of course, he eventually wound up in the lead guitarist slot of the band after, I think, a 52-year absence.
I myself quit as the keyboardist of a local band in 1993. I wonder if in 2045 I might rejoin.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:25 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
In sixth grade (late seventies), these were the two factions in my school, and being indifferent to both — as I was — was like being neutral on Cavaliers vs Roundheads or Union vs Confederacy or Ecks vs Sever: I was clearly a weirdo.
The Yardbirds lacked the Jagger-Richards songwriting juggernaut; their early hits were written by outsiders. But they still had an outsize influence on the music, first with lead guitarist Jeff Beck, who was followed by Eric Clapton
Fact check on aisle 82!
Yeah, some might mention Jimmy Page here, who followed Beck. Some might even aver that Led Zeppelin (né The New Yardbirds) had some success in their own right. Or indeed Anthony “Top” Topham, Clapton’s predecessor. As I understand it, Topham was a few years younger than the rest and had to bow out because when they first began achieving a bit of success, he was like fifteen years old. I imagine he couldn’t go on Top of the Pops because he had calculus homework due. Of course, he eventually wound up in the lead guitarist slot of the band after, I think, a 52-year absence.
I myself quit as the keyboardist of a local band in 1993. I wonder if in 2045 I might rejoin.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:25 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I decided beforehand that if the Beatles weren't in the top spot, I wasn't looking at the rest of it, and it saved me a LOT of time.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:34 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:34 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
As far as Listicles go, I get it: Wyman presents his personal premise, and makes arguements for his views. (I'm also onside with his snide barbs about Wenner, who I also don't care for (I'm on team vintage Creem)).
So he doesn't care for Prog/Psychedelia, which I love, but I can deal with that view (shared by many of my friends). I like to mention that even though Donovan could be annoying, his commercial success helped to pave the way for the 60s/70s English folk/rock boom with Fairport Convention, Pentangle, and Steeleye Span.
I could quibble about his distaste for Deep Purple/70s Spinal-Tap-esque Dinosaur Rock. If yer gonna have a RRHoF in Cleveland, then Dinosaur Rock seems like an obvious part of the equation. I nominate: Uriah Heep (whom he mentioned dismissively), Blue Oyster Cult, UFO, Scorpions, Nazareth, and more (even Spinal Tap). Also: classical-rock faves Procol Harum and the intense prog/fusion outfit Mahavishnu Orchestra (who could rock pretty hard).
posted by ovvl at 3:45 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
So he doesn't care for Prog/Psychedelia, which I love, but I can deal with that view (shared by many of my friends). I like to mention that even though Donovan could be annoying, his commercial success helped to pave the way for the 60s/70s English folk/rock boom with Fairport Convention, Pentangle, and Steeleye Span.
I could quibble about his distaste for Deep Purple/70s Spinal-Tap-esque Dinosaur Rock. If yer gonna have a RRHoF in Cleveland, then Dinosaur Rock seems like an obvious part of the equation. I nominate: Uriah Heep (whom he mentioned dismissively), Blue Oyster Cult, UFO, Scorpions, Nazareth, and more (even Spinal Tap). Also: classical-rock faves Procol Harum and the intense prog/fusion outfit Mahavishnu Orchestra (who could rock pretty hard).
posted by ovvl at 3:45 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
For someone with such a high regard for punk, he has no respect for proto-punk.
posted by Selena777 at 3:50 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 3:50 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
And in a perfect world, some Garage/Pop Rock like Paul Revere, The Troggs, The Standells, Tommy James, and more. And The Monkees.
posted by ovvl at 3:52 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 3:52 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a Rush fan I am just rolling my eyes at his dismissal of them, if you want people to know what Rush is about you just play them Spirit of Radio, then you pause, and say "okay, let's listen to this again, but now try to tap out the time signature", then after that explodes their brain you tell them that every single song of their 40-year history is like that and you don't notice it until you start looking for it.
(okay their first few albums either don't do it or make it pretty obvious they're doing it but)
also Court of the Crimson King is a charming song but it tells you nothing about who King Crimson is, it's the opening track of what is basically a Moody Blues album and the only one that even vaguely points in the direction of angular tunings, stream-of-consciousness-lyrics, and insane live jams that Fripp evoked from whoever was on decent terms with him when the heavens would open up and the hand of God would come down and say "Robert. Robert Fripp. It is time for there to be a King Crimson again." Man this dude just does not like prog. And neither does the RRHOF I guess? Honestly I don't think I've ever paid any attention to its antics.
posted by egypturnash at 4:36 PM on November 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
(okay their first few albums either don't do it or make it pretty obvious they're doing it but)
also Court of the Crimson King is a charming song but it tells you nothing about who King Crimson is, it's the opening track of what is basically a Moody Blues album and the only one that even vaguely points in the direction of angular tunings, stream-of-consciousness-lyrics, and insane live jams that Fripp evoked from whoever was on decent terms with him when the heavens would open up and the hand of God would come down and say "Robert. Robert Fripp. It is time for there to be a King Crimson again." Man this dude just does not like prog. And neither does the RRHOF I guess? Honestly I don't think I've ever paid any attention to its antics.
posted by egypturnash at 4:36 PM on November 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
"I guess a lot of [the Bee Gees] was disposable pop, but then there’s “Stayin’ Alive,” as good a rock song as any of Michael Jackson’s."
Holy shit. Come on, man. Third-best selling band in history? Nevermind the fact that they were a songwriting machine? There's not many contenders to the Lennon-McCartney throne, but they're definitely up there. They wrote 'Too Much Heaven', 'Tragedy', and 'Shadow Dancing' on the same fucking day. Streisand owes the back half of her career to them. But OK, sure, #154. Whatever.
"ABBA’s a punch line, and a remunerative one, but not a band that left much of a mark on history."
Uh huh. An even stronger contender to the Lennon-McCartney throne. ABBA's Gold compilation has only been on the charts for 1,100 weeks.
Dude, it's a Hall of Fame. That's the criteria. Not that you don't like disco.
posted by Capt. Renault at 4:46 PM on November 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Holy shit. Come on, man. Third-best selling band in history? Nevermind the fact that they were a songwriting machine? There's not many contenders to the Lennon-McCartney throne, but they're definitely up there. They wrote 'Too Much Heaven', 'Tragedy', and 'Shadow Dancing' on the same fucking day. Streisand owes the back half of her career to them. But OK, sure, #154. Whatever.
"ABBA’s a punch line, and a remunerative one, but not a band that left much of a mark on history."
Uh huh. An even stronger contender to the Lennon-McCartney throne. ABBA's Gold compilation has only been on the charts for 1,100 weeks.
Dude, it's a Hall of Fame. That's the criteria. Not that you don't like disco.
posted by Capt. Renault at 4:46 PM on November 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
He thinks popularity has undue influence on inclusion/ranking until he's dismissively counting off the hits of bands he dislikes.
posted by Selena777 at 4:50 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 4:50 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
To my surprise, I mostly agreed with this list.
When the Wayne's World movie had them singing along with Bohemian Rhapsody, I took it for granted that Queen was the joke, and a funny one at that. I was puzzled when others interpreted it differently. By now though, I've seen Geddy Lee worshipfully interviewed by Dan Rather, Fleetwood Mac revived by an internet video, and a whole slew of "classic rock" songs featured in movies (Redbone?) and I think I'm a little more realistic about how culture works. Nostalgia and brute popularity are potent forces.
posted by Rich Smorgasbord at 4:57 PM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
When the Wayne's World movie had them singing along with Bohemian Rhapsody, I took it for granted that Queen was the joke, and a funny one at that. I was puzzled when others interpreted it differently. By now though, I've seen Geddy Lee worshipfully interviewed by Dan Rather, Fleetwood Mac revived by an internet video, and a whole slew of "classic rock" songs featured in movies (Redbone?) and I think I'm a little more realistic about how culture works. Nostalgia and brute popularity are potent forces.
posted by Rich Smorgasbord at 4:57 PM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
play them Spirit of Radio, then you pause, and say "okay, let's listen to this again, but now try to tap out the time signature"
Isn't Spirit of Radio mostly in 4/4?
posted by thecjm at 5:06 PM on November 13, 2022
Isn't Spirit of Radio mostly in 4/4?
posted by thecjm at 5:06 PM on November 13, 2022
I just took a listen and the part after the guitar intro is in something like 6/4 but most of the song is pretty straight 4/4.
posted by thecjm at 5:10 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 5:10 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Is the complexity of a band’s time signatures really relevant to where they rank in a so-called hall of fame? Sounds formulaic.
posted by Rumple at 5:19 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Rumple at 5:19 PM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm working my way through the list, and it's fine so far. Wyman has set criteria for his placement and pretty much sticks with it. Of course, there are some bits I have to roll my eyes at-- such as the offhanded dismissing of "My Adidas" and "a lot of" Aretha Franklin's work-- and, as usual with these lists, I don't agree with the placement of everything. However, the little tidbits of history and commentary on the Hall of Fame itself make for some good reading. I particularly enjoyed this passage, included with #30 (Public Enemy):
posted by May Kasahara at 5:24 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
And then there’s the issue of hip-hop producers. P.E.’s Bomb Squad is long overdue for induction just on artistic grounds. The hall side category dubbed the Ahmet Ertegun Award, which recognizes industry folks and producers, has been awarded only once to a figure from the rap world: Sylvia Robinson, of Sugarhill Records. Sad!Now I want to see DJ Premier get inducted. And Prince Paul, while they're at it.
Robinson had a remarkable career, but that’s still pretty shabby handling of music that’s been around now for a half-century. Russell Simmons is the most obvious candidate; given the multiple rape and assault allegations against him as well this seems unlikely, but remember this is the organization that welcomed Phil Spector back to the nominating committee even after he’d shot a woman in the face, so stay tuned. DJ Premier, of Gang Starr, might be a good choice. It’s now been 30 years since the release of The Chronic, one of a handful of the most influential releases in rock history; in what universe are, say, the Foo Fighters more influential than Dr. Dre? The hall should really recognize some of the African-American producers who built the sound before inevitably turning its attention to Rick Rubin.
posted by May Kasahara at 5:24 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Eh, I’d say his criteria are incoherent and he doesn’t follow them anyway. I get that James Brown is more foundational, but is he better than Prince? Are they both worse than the Beatles, a band that I personally think the world would benefit from a 50 year moratorium on playing their songs? It’s all an exercise in “well, a fella could think that.”
I noticed the way he blithely noted that women are underrepresented and then pushed a bunch of them lower on the chart. Joan Jett, if only on the basis of being a queer woman, is so much more important than Chuck Berry than he wouldn’t even be on the list. Really, who listens to Chuck Berry? I still perk up when “Crimson and Clover” or “Cherry Bomb” shows up, though. Yeah, yeah, a fella can think that.
The RRHoF is a stupid joke perpetuated by dinosaurs pretending their opinion matters even as the meteor is exploding, but this list is that quadrupled — bad opinions badly expressed about bad things that don’t matter. Nice work, BW.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:41 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I noticed the way he blithely noted that women are underrepresented and then pushed a bunch of them lower on the chart. Joan Jett, if only on the basis of being a queer woman, is so much more important than Chuck Berry than he wouldn’t even be on the list. Really, who listens to Chuck Berry? I still perk up when “Crimson and Clover” or “Cherry Bomb” shows up, though. Yeah, yeah, a fella can think that.
The RRHoF is a stupid joke perpetuated by dinosaurs pretending their opinion matters even as the meteor is exploding, but this list is that quadrupled — bad opinions badly expressed about bad things that don’t matter. Nice work, BW.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:41 PM on November 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Hmm,
evs.
I've always subscribed to the same view of the RRHOF as HarveyPekar (thanks Rash). Despite what a turd John Lydon has become (has always been?) I gloried in the Sex Pistols snub of the hall when they wanted to induct them. Everybody's favorite band sucks (mine too) so glory in the commercial might, or the street cred, or the danceability, or whatever metric you choose for what you listen to and fuck the corporate bullshit.
posted by evilDoug at 6:49 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
evs.
I've always subscribed to the same view of the RRHOF as HarveyPekar (thanks Rash). Despite what a turd John Lydon has become (has always been?) I gloried in the Sex Pistols snub of the hall when they wanted to induct them. Everybody's favorite band sucks (mine too) so glory in the commercial might, or the street cred, or the danceability, or whatever metric you choose for what you listen to and fuck the corporate bullshit.
posted by evilDoug at 6:49 PM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah re: Bill Wyman's (not the musician) article, tl;dr.
posted by evilDoug at 6:52 PM on November 13, 2022
posted by evilDoug at 6:52 PM on November 13, 2022
Joan Jett, if only on the basis of being a queer woman, is so much more important than Chuck Berry than he wouldn’t even be on the list. Really, who listens to Chuck Berry?
most of the guitarists you've heard - including joan jett
posted by pyramid termite at 7:02 PM on November 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
most of the guitarists you've heard - including joan jett
posted by pyramid termite at 7:02 PM on November 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
Really, who listens to Chuck Berry?
pyramid termite has mostly covered it, but this queer woman sure does, as do many of my queer women friends. Chuck Berry's music is is fucking great! (But he is a very problematic person and this is important to also acknowledge!)
posted by Dysk at 11:29 PM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
pyramid termite has mostly covered it, but this queer woman sure does, as do many of my queer women friends. Chuck Berry's music is is fucking great! (But he is a very problematic person and this is important to also acknowledge!)
posted by Dysk at 11:29 PM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
This list reminds me of those Insurance Conferences where delegates are given gold jewellery for making the least payouts on claims.
As an aside weren't those gold records given to artists who sold a million records just bits of vinyl sprayed with gold paint?
posted by Narrative_Historian at 11:46 PM on November 13, 2022
As an aside weren't those gold records given to artists who sold a million records just bits of vinyl sprayed with gold paint?
posted by Narrative_Historian at 11:46 PM on November 13, 2022
This list is awful. If you want to see someone doing something interesting with musical lists maybe check out Bela Delgado on tiktok.
posted by zymil at 12:47 AM on November 14, 2022
posted by zymil at 12:47 AM on November 14, 2022
Checked again... no MC5, so no need to read any of this...
posted by AJaffe at 7:37 AM on November 14, 2022
posted by AJaffe at 7:37 AM on November 14, 2022
The MC5 has been nominated six times, more than anyone other than Chuck Willis, who probably doesn't really need to be there, and Chic, who definitely do.
While I agree completely about the MC5, your complaint might be more for the RRHoF voters than it is for the author.
posted by box at 8:00 AM on November 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
While I agree completely about the MC5, your complaint might be more for the RRHoF voters than it is for the author.
posted by box at 8:00 AM on November 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I could care less about the listing, but on Elvis C, "His critical corner is so polite it doesn’t mention he hasn’t recorded a great song since 1986 or so."
His newish single with the Attractions is pretty great.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:22 AM on November 14, 2022
His newish single with the Attractions is pretty great.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:22 AM on November 14, 2022
Metafilter: finally, an uncontroversial listicle that everyone can agree upon!
posted by Chuffy at 10:49 AM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 10:49 AM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
we can thank these awful lists for threads that are almost guaranteed to approach 100 comments or more
a lot gets posted, shared, the sum is very much a beautiful thing.. think of it like lancing a boil
@The_Vegetables, I was at Diana Krall's childhood home in Nanaimo and the owners at the time recounted her visit, she wanted to visit the home she grew up in, and ol' Declan Patrick MacManus was very much the dutiful husband at the time.
I listened to a lot a lot of Elvis Costello and the Attractions but with every passing year I'm closer to thinking of him as That Guy Who Once Dated Cait O'Riordan
posted by elkevelvet at 11:01 AM on November 14, 2022
a lot gets posted, shared, the sum is very much a beautiful thing.. think of it like lancing a boil
@The_Vegetables, I was at Diana Krall's childhood home in Nanaimo and the owners at the time recounted her visit, she wanted to visit the home she grew up in, and ol' Declan Patrick MacManus was very much the dutiful husband at the time.
I listened to a lot a lot of Elvis Costello and the Attractions but with every passing year I'm closer to thinking of him as That Guy Who Once Dated Cait O'Riordan
posted by elkevelvet at 11:01 AM on November 14, 2022
Reading from the top it seemed like a fairly predictable take on the conventional acts to top such a list. (I'd take Prince over James Brown, for example, but whatever.) I liked the point about David Bowie and the Hall's discomfort with non-traditional masculinity and Queerness in general.
So I popped down to see who was at the bottom. Hard to disagree with Stevie Nicks' separate induction for her solo career, and Wyman was clear that he wasn't really shitting on Nicks generally there, gotcha, gotcha...
Then the points about Queen, well, those are hard to argue with. The surviving members of Queen have always seemed like kinda the worst, and...
But wait a minute, Queen still made a mountain of monster songs, and the list starts with Chuck Berry, who deserves to be near the top but come on, if you're playing that fast and loose with how you apply the "personally problematic" rule, you're just making ad hoc rationalizations for your personal taste. And that's fine - Bill Wyman hates Queen, whatever. I'm not interested in defending the surviving members of Queen myself. But the history of the recording industry is also the history of a lot of the very worst people this side of war criminals.
Put another way, if this article read as a countdown, then Wyman could make the case for Queen's playing South Africa and hushing up Freddie Mercury's homosexuality and AIDS diagnosis as outweighing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "Under Pressure" and a couple dozen other huge songs, but then like half the acts that followed would be raising the question of why they get more of a pass.
This is part of why, as far as music journalism goes, I adore Tom Breihan's "The Number Ones" column so much. He's very clear about his personal taste being subjective. He talks about the horrid personal histories that come with so many artists and how being able to divorce that (or not) from an artist's music is also a personal thing. And he recognizes the accomplishments of ABBA and the Bee-Gees even if it hasn't always been hip to like them on a critical level.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:22 AM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
So I popped down to see who was at the bottom. Hard to disagree with Stevie Nicks' separate induction for her solo career, and Wyman was clear that he wasn't really shitting on Nicks generally there, gotcha, gotcha...
Then the points about Queen, well, those are hard to argue with. The surviving members of Queen have always seemed like kinda the worst, and...
But wait a minute, Queen still made a mountain of monster songs, and the list starts with Chuck Berry, who deserves to be near the top but come on, if you're playing that fast and loose with how you apply the "personally problematic" rule, you're just making ad hoc rationalizations for your personal taste. And that's fine - Bill Wyman hates Queen, whatever. I'm not interested in defending the surviving members of Queen myself. But the history of the recording industry is also the history of a lot of the very worst people this side of war criminals.
Put another way, if this article read as a countdown, then Wyman could make the case for Queen's playing South Africa and hushing up Freddie Mercury's homosexuality and AIDS diagnosis as outweighing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and "Under Pressure" and a couple dozen other huge songs, but then like half the acts that followed would be raising the question of why they get more of a pass.
This is part of why, as far as music journalism goes, I adore Tom Breihan's "The Number Ones" column so much. He's very clear about his personal taste being subjective. He talks about the horrid personal histories that come with so many artists and how being able to divorce that (or not) from an artist's music is also a personal thing. And he recognizes the accomplishments of ABBA and the Bee-Gees even if it hasn't always been hip to like them on a critical level.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:22 AM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't get Van Morrison at #29. Above The Who? Bruce Springsteen? Pink Floyd? Neil Young?
posted by slogger at 11:41 AM on November 14, 2022
posted by slogger at 11:41 AM on November 14, 2022
I am not a prog rock fan at all, and, despite liking them, I also think Queen are way overrated.
However:
There is a certain kind of intolerable dude that like to shit on Nina Simone.
Bill Wyman is that kind of intolerable dude.
posted by thivaia at 11:42 AM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
However:
There is a certain kind of intolerable dude that like to shit on Nina Simone.
Bill Wyman is that kind of intolerable dude.
posted by thivaia at 11:42 AM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't get Van Morrison at #29.
You got ringworm?
posted by Meatbomb at 12:03 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
You got ringworm?
posted by Meatbomb at 12:03 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't read the whole list so I might be creating a conclusion based on just a few examples that doesn't work out over the whole article, but I got the impression that some of the disconnect between how behaviour influences his opinions seems to be whether the behaviour was private shittiness (Berry assaulting women) vs public shittiness (Queen playing apartheid era SA). Like, just being a shitty person got more of a pass than being shitty as a public element of how you conducted your musical career. But I am also not sure he thought about it, either. It could have just been whatever he wanted to say to justify putting some people where he wanted them in the list.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:10 PM on November 14, 2022
posted by jacquilynne at 12:10 PM on November 14, 2022
Prince, Ramones, and Nirvana above Pink Floyd, Johnny Cash, REM
The implication is that Prince is below someone. So, not reading this, it's obviously wrong.
posted by chavenet at 12:13 PM on November 14, 2022
The implication is that Prince is below someone. So, not reading this, it's obviously wrong.
posted by chavenet at 12:13 PM on November 14, 2022
Every one of these listicles is there to prop up the business because ad revenue is dropping like a stone. They’re not worthy of metafilter and they’re barely worthy of being published in whatever publication has them this week.
And I wish folks would just stop posting them here. I can barely fathom the amount of energy (and angst) that goes into something so pointless.
posted by MorgansAmoebas at 12:54 PM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
And I wish folks would just stop posting them here. I can barely fathom the amount of energy (and angst) that goes into something so pointless.
posted by MorgansAmoebas at 12:54 PM on November 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
But the history of the recording industry is also the history of a lot of the very worst people this side of war criminals.
if you're talking about the gangsters behind the scenes and the shareholders who profit from their machinations ... maybe. But the artists themselves, many of whom I agree are anything but saints (like most humans) -- methinks this hyperbolizes overmuch.
Every one of these listicles is there to prop up the business because ad revenue is dropping like a stone. They’re not worthy of metafilter and
I don't mind the listicles, particularly those that come from someone who knows a thing or two about how to think critically. I disagree with a lot of what Mr. Wyman has concluded but I like that a lot of it comes from his at least being true to his original premises.
And the discussion here hasn't been half bad.
posted by philip-random at 1:27 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
if you're talking about the gangsters behind the scenes and the shareholders who profit from their machinations ... maybe. But the artists themselves, many of whom I agree are anything but saints (like most humans) -- methinks this hyperbolizes overmuch.
Every one of these listicles is there to prop up the business because ad revenue is dropping like a stone. They’re not worthy of metafilter and
I don't mind the listicles, particularly those that come from someone who knows a thing or two about how to think critically. I disagree with a lot of what Mr. Wyman has concluded but I like that a lot of it comes from his at least being true to his original premises.
And the discussion here hasn't been half bad.
posted by philip-random at 1:27 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Re: the MC5 (and Kate Bush)
In his entry on Gene Vincent where he lays out who he thinks should be in -
I enjoyed talking to the late Jim Bessman, a longtime writer for Billboard and Variety, former member of the nominating committee, and then a voting committee member. I asked him whom he had voted for that year, which was 2019. “None of the ones I’d voted for got in,” he said. “I voted for five. There’s the Zombies, Link Wray, and MC5 — and those to me are indisputable. The next two are disputable, I voted for Kate Bush, whom I love and I think is extremely important, and Judas Priest. That to me is as rock and roll as you get.” Bessman also told me he spent his years on the nominating committee arguing, fruitlessly, for Lesley Gore.
My point: Gore is arguable, but all I saw in his list are five footnotes to the history of rock and roll, not hall of fame inductees. I thought Bessman was out of his mind.
Queen sold out long long before the movie came out.
When he talks about the former "Sidemen" category he mentions that the drummer of the Wrecking Crew got in, not mentioning his name and in a way kind of questioning why only him (obviously more members of the Wrecking Crew should be in). 1) His name is Hal Blaine and 2) As a session drummer he played on forty number one hits and over a hundred top ten hits.
posted by LostInUbe at 2:29 PM on November 14, 2022
In his entry on Gene Vincent where he lays out who he thinks should be in -
I enjoyed talking to the late Jim Bessman, a longtime writer for Billboard and Variety, former member of the nominating committee, and then a voting committee member. I asked him whom he had voted for that year, which was 2019. “None of the ones I’d voted for got in,” he said. “I voted for five. There’s the Zombies, Link Wray, and MC5 — and those to me are indisputable. The next two are disputable, I voted for Kate Bush, whom I love and I think is extremely important, and Judas Priest. That to me is as rock and roll as you get.” Bessman also told me he spent his years on the nominating committee arguing, fruitlessly, for Lesley Gore.
My point: Gore is arguable, but all I saw in his list are five footnotes to the history of rock and roll, not hall of fame inductees. I thought Bessman was out of his mind.
Queen sold out long long before the movie came out.
When he talks about the former "Sidemen" category he mentions that the drummer of the Wrecking Crew got in, not mentioning his name and in a way kind of questioning why only him (obviously more members of the Wrecking Crew should be in). 1) His name is Hal Blaine and 2) As a session drummer he played on forty number one hits and over a hundred top ten hits.
posted by LostInUbe at 2:29 PM on November 14, 2022
Thanks for posting, tommasz, don't let the drive-by snark get you down. We need more posts around here, not fewer. I really enjoyed reading this; it provided some interesting history and some points that I hadn't considered before.
A lot of comments seem to be responding to "This is who the writer thinks made the best music", and it isn't that. Here's the premise:
I love and revere Queen today, but when confronted with the thought they are overrated, I remembered that in high school, I thought of them as kind of a gimmicky band who I enjoyed, but didn't think much about... the zeitgeist has definitely changed. Were they highly influential? Were they the first at something? Greater than the greats musically? Or did they just make some really good music?
He then goes into detail about why he thinks they are "dinks", so shoves them way down the chart. Fair assessment on his own terms.
posted by team lowkey at 3:59 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
A lot of comments seem to be responding to "This is who the writer thinks made the best music", and it isn't that. Here's the premise:
The rankings below are made on the basis of the appropriateness of each artist’s induction, not their baseline quality or my personal fondness for the artists in question. In other words, was the act influential? Were they the first? Are they simply brilliant at whatever it is they do? Those to me are considerations that make for a hall of fame band. (There are a few bands I personally like a lot on the bottom half of the list.) I have one further criterion, too: Was their career worthy of being in a hall of fame? There are some acts, a few fairly influential, whom I’ve downgraded, basically for being dinks. You may disagree, but it’s my list.Prince has to be after James Brown, because James Brown did it first. Does Nirvana even happen if not for the Ramones?
I love and revere Queen today, but when confronted with the thought they are overrated, I remembered that in high school, I thought of them as kind of a gimmicky band who I enjoyed, but didn't think much about... the zeitgeist has definitely changed. Were they highly influential? Were they the first at something? Greater than the greats musically? Or did they just make some really good music?
He then goes into detail about why he thinks they are "dinks", so shoves them way down the chart. Fair assessment on his own terms.
posted by team lowkey at 3:59 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Baseball Hall of Fame has similar and equally infuriating arguments as to its inductees, many of which revolve around whether it is a Hall of Fame or a Hall of Popular or a Hall of the Rarely Visible But Consistently Very Good. Whether a short burst of extreme accomplishment should get you in, or if plugging along in obscurity as a big fish in a small pond should be enough, or if hanging on too long diminishes one's legacy, or if being a small-but-important cog in many successful machines should be sufficient.
There are nominations every single year that make me shake my head in dismay, wondering if there should be a separate Pop HoF or Rap/Hip-Hop HoF or Folk HoF or such. There are bands that flared brightly and disappeared just as quickly (hello, Zombies), there are bands that went on and on and on and enjoyed great popularity and added exactly nothing new to the genre or art form (I'm staring at you, Bon Jovi), and there are quirky choices that just seem to defy all logic.
But I do defy anyone to listen to ten seconds of Rumble and not want to induct Link Wray.
posted by delfin at 6:58 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
There are nominations every single year that make me shake my head in dismay, wondering if there should be a separate Pop HoF or Rap/Hip-Hop HoF or Folk HoF or such. There are bands that flared brightly and disappeared just as quickly (hello, Zombies), there are bands that went on and on and on and enjoyed great popularity and added exactly nothing new to the genre or art form (I'm staring at you, Bon Jovi), and there are quirky choices that just seem to defy all logic.
But I do defy anyone to listen to ten seconds of Rumble and not want to induct Link Wray.
posted by delfin at 6:58 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I feel like Wyman wildly overrates Nirvana (#8), which, per his criteria, means that he wildly overrates their influence, their doing things first, etc., in a way that only someone who listens exclusively to music that gets released on major labels and makes the Billboard charts and gets nominated for awards could do.
posted by box at 7:16 AM on November 15, 2022
With the Sex Pistols the most influential and consequential band since the 1960s; with Public Enemy the most powerful and uncompromising ditto. Leader Kurt Cobain is as iconic a figure as rock has produced, painfully and tragically seeking honesty and authenticityThat's a lot of superlatives. And
The psychological honesty of Cobain’s songs were groundbreaking; sonically, they blew a hole in the radio and wrenched the entire recording industry sidewaysThe way I remember it, there was a year or so of major record labels giving stupid money to once-indie stalwarts like the Butthole Surfers and Royal Trux that never had a chance of becoming popular, and then along came your Candleboxes and Stone Temple Pilotses.
posted by box at 7:16 AM on November 15, 2022
The way I remember it, there was a year or so of major record labels giving stupid money to once-indie stalwarts like the Butthole Surfers and Royal Trux that never had a chance of becoming popular, and then along came your Candleboxes and Stone Temple Pilotses.
The Butthole Surfers had a Billboard Modern Rock #1 with Pepper [one of their worst songs], but I completely agree with your point. Influential = popular in this parlance. Nirvana wasn't really influential, all those bands trailing sound like Pearl Jam (midtempo rocking with long blues-based solos) and ripping off Eddie Vedder's voice, not Nirvana's.
And if 'influential/innovative' is an important criteria, where is the drum & bass, trance, house, electronic music etc? If that's not 'rock' enough, where is the 'shoegaze', the 'dream pop', etc? If it's popularity, then Bon Jovi is as deserved as anyone else on the list. Queen too, even though I personally think they totally blow. They were both definitely influential, in that plenty of modern bands borrow from their sound, like for example Fun borrows a lot from Queen.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:05 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Butthole Surfers had a Billboard Modern Rock #1 with Pepper [one of their worst songs], but I completely agree with your point. Influential = popular in this parlance. Nirvana wasn't really influential, all those bands trailing sound like Pearl Jam (midtempo rocking with long blues-based solos) and ripping off Eddie Vedder's voice, not Nirvana's.
And if 'influential/innovative' is an important criteria, where is the drum & bass, trance, house, electronic music etc? If that's not 'rock' enough, where is the 'shoegaze', the 'dream pop', etc? If it's popularity, then Bon Jovi is as deserved as anyone else on the list. Queen too, even though I personally think they totally blow. They were both definitely influential, in that plenty of modern bands borrow from their sound, like for example Fun borrows a lot from Queen.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:05 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The surviving members of Queen have always seemed like kinda the worst
May and Taylor yes, but I've always kinda respected John Deacon for being like "nope, that's it, we're done" after Freddie Mercury's death and for sticking doggedly to it thereafter.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:14 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
May and Taylor yes, but I've always kinda respected John Deacon for being like "nope, that's it, we're done" after Freddie Mercury's death and for sticking doggedly to it thereafter.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:14 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm imagining the Venn diagram of assorted spheres of
- people who love/hate listicles
- people who agree/disagree with this particular ranking, to whatever extent
- people with strong opinions about music who vehemently reject the author's perspective in the same way the Head side of a coin despises the Tail side
- people who could not care less but sheer boredom compels them
and here we all are, ain't this cozy
posted by elkevelvet at 3:35 PM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
- people who love/hate listicles
- people who agree/disagree with this particular ranking, to whatever extent
- people with strong opinions about music who vehemently reject the author's perspective in the same way the Head side of a coin despises the Tail side
- people who could not care less but sheer boredom compels them
and here we all are, ain't this cozy
posted by elkevelvet at 3:35 PM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
ctrl-f for authenticity.
dude values "authenticity"
picture a Fry meme here captioned NOT SURE IF ADORABLY NAIVE OR JUST OFFPUTTING OLD ROCK GUY GATEKEEPING.
posted by Sauce Trough at 4:37 PM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
dude values "authenticity"
picture a Fry meme here captioned NOT SURE IF ADORABLY NAIVE OR JUST OFFPUTTING OLD ROCK GUY GATEKEEPING.
posted by Sauce Trough at 4:37 PM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
another example of how the hall reflexively absorbs the practitioners of accepted rock-and-roll postureshey did you know that there are people who look like rock stars in the rock and roll hall of fame
posted by Sauce Trough at 2:00 AM on November 16, 2022
hey did you know that there are people who look like rock stars in the rock and roll hall of fame
And then there is Steven Tyler in the Jivaro Fetish section.
posted by y2karl at 7:36 PM on November 17, 2022
And then there is Steven Tyler in the Jivaro Fetish section.
posted by y2karl at 7:36 PM on November 17, 2022
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Also, if you do it that way, you can find out that while they may have updated the list, they didn't edit the updated text very well, because the entry on Rush predicts that the Foo Fighters will eventually be inducted, and then you keep scrolling and find out they were!
posted by jacquilynne at 7:55 AM on November 13, 2022 [13 favorites]