To put the landlord in prison borders on the unconscionable- Stadtmuelle
November 16, 2022 8:17 AM Subscribe
Nearly a decade later a deadly house fire near Milwaukee gets a feature article with the depth and history of something you would see in The New Yorker on oranges. Why?
Because with this renter and landlord the outcomes of this deadly house fire demonstrate the two justice systems in the US. The landlord is Todd Brunner, a slum lord with a lengthy history of code violations and fires at his property. It's is not shocking that the the deadly fire at the property that a bank had recently foreclosed on results in no fines, nothing. It is still astonishing that the renter, a mum who loses 3 of her children in the fire, ends up serving back to back child neglect sentences.
It is remarkable the role individuals in the criminal justice system played. Mark Williams' career spanned prosecuting the renter many decades after prosecuting the renter's mom. He is noted for possibly prosecuting more homicides than anyone in the US, and so when asked about this case just simply doesn't remember anything. Or the role of judge J.P. Stadtmueller who presided over one of bigger fraud cases against the landlord Brunner decides that a short probation was all that was necessary. It is the very same Stadtmueller that later throws out the renters lawsuit.
Because with this renter and landlord the outcomes of this deadly house fire demonstrate the two justice systems in the US. The landlord is Todd Brunner, a slum lord with a lengthy history of code violations and fires at his property. It's is not shocking that the the deadly fire at the property that a bank had recently foreclosed on results in no fines, nothing. It is still astonishing that the renter, a mum who loses 3 of her children in the fire, ends up serving back to back child neglect sentences.
It is remarkable the role individuals in the criminal justice system played. Mark Williams' career spanned prosecuting the renter many decades after prosecuting the renter's mom. He is noted for possibly prosecuting more homicides than anyone in the US, and so when asked about this case just simply doesn't remember anything. Or the role of judge J.P. Stadtmueller who presided over one of bigger fraud cases against the landlord Brunner decides that a short probation was all that was necessary. It is the very same Stadtmueller that later throws out the renters lawsuit.
About halfway through this article when you feel like punching through your screen or screaming, maybe take a walk or have a cup of tea.
Barely worked for me.
I'll never not love ProPublica.
posted by shenkerism at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
Barely worked for me.
I'll never not love ProPublica.
posted by shenkerism at 10:38 AM on November 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
Cannot. I know to some this is a walk on the "there but for the grace of god" side, but for some of us this is too close to lived experience to read as entertainment. Thanks for the post zenon. Let me know when the slicy bois are being deployed.
posted by evilDoug at 10:54 AM on November 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 10:54 AM on November 16, 2022 [9 favorites]
There's no doubt that Brunner is a terrible person, and this is a very sad story, but a couple of additional facts are helpful for context, I think: (1) the mother of the children who died repeatedly left them alone (they were 4-5 years old) and was cited by the child protective service for things like leaving them alone and letting them wander around in traffic; she left the kids alone the night of the fire while she went to work (again, 4-5 years old, alone, behind a locked door they could not open) - I am sure there are plenty of reasons why the mother had difficult circumstances and difficulty getting help with her kids, but it's not crazy to say that this was neglectful behavior -- if you knew 4-5 year old kids were being left alone like this, you would probably not think it was an OK thing to do, regardless of the landlord being a scumbag; (2) the lawsuit the mother filed against the landlord was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction because she filed it in the wrong court, not because of any determination that Brunner was not culpable/liable. All of that said, the ridiculously short sentence for Brunner is not defensible.
posted by Mid at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Mid at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Thank you Mid, for pointing out that there's always more to the story than just outrage against one side.
Brunner gets a scholarship to play football at Northern Illinois University. But the university has no record of him ever attending.
Now there's another story.
Unable to find a lawyer, she ends up representing herself.
Wut? No elaboration here? This doesn't make sense.
posted by Melismata at 11:10 AM on November 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
Brunner gets a scholarship to play football at Northern Illinois University. But the university has no record of him ever attending.
Now there's another story.
Unable to find a lawyer, she ends up representing herself.
Wut? No elaboration here? This doesn't make sense.
posted by Melismata at 11:10 AM on November 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
I know to some this is a walk on the "there but for the grace of god" side, but for some of us this is too close to lived experience to read as entertainment.
This. I spent the second half of my youth living in a dilapidated, slumlord-owned rental house. The only repairs ever made were what we or friends managed to DIY. But it was affordable and better than being homeless. This story hits really close.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:17 AM on November 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
This. I spent the second half of my youth living in a dilapidated, slumlord-owned rental house. The only repairs ever made were what we or friends managed to DIY. But it was affordable and better than being homeless. This story hits really close.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:17 AM on November 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
This doesn't need to be a "one is good and the other is bad" situation. It is obviously neglect, but houses also should not just spontaneously ignite.
There really isn't a context that absolves Brunner of his guilt, in my opinion. He demonstrated a clear, willful pattern of intentional neglect. He rented apartments that were deathtraps, and it's only by a technicality that he didn't own the apartment when the children died.
Depending on how the fire started, the smoke spread, and the air got displaced, it's quite possible that even adults could have died in the fire. CO is a pernicious thing. This fire could have happened at night and still killed them despite the mother being present.
Fundamentally, she left her children in a house for a few hours. That's bad. He intentionally set up conditions that lead to it burning down. That's much worse. In a just world, he'd be considered an arsonist who killed 3 children. An arsonist doesn't get to say, "how could I have known there'd be unattended children in the house," right?
posted by explosion at 11:18 AM on November 16, 2022 [22 favorites]
There really isn't a context that absolves Brunner of his guilt, in my opinion. He demonstrated a clear, willful pattern of intentional neglect. He rented apartments that were deathtraps, and it's only by a technicality that he didn't own the apartment when the children died.
Depending on how the fire started, the smoke spread, and the air got displaced, it's quite possible that even adults could have died in the fire. CO is a pernicious thing. This fire could have happened at night and still killed them despite the mother being present.
Fundamentally, she left her children in a house for a few hours. That's bad. He intentionally set up conditions that lead to it burning down. That's much worse. In a just world, he'd be considered an arsonist who killed 3 children. An arsonist doesn't get to say, "how could I have known there'd be unattended children in the house," right?
posted by explosion at 11:18 AM on November 16, 2022 [22 favorites]
So if someone leaves their children at home so that they can work to pay rent on a piece of shit slum house, to what degree are they culpable? If a young woman with four children, two with disabilities, can't always keep the house clean and struggles to get all four kids dressed and into the car to drive one of them to school, to what extent is she culpable?
I mean yes, if you have four kids then all four kids need care, but can you imagine being a single mom of four little kids, two of whom are high-needs, while having basically no social connections and apparently very little help from the dads? Plus a history of poverty and trauma?
It isn't the same kind of culpability, it isn't a both sides story. If you tell someone that they need to work to pay rent while also caring for four small children full time, something is going to give. It's like telling people that they have to do a plate-juggling act while singing the aria from Rigoletto - sure, maybe one person in a hundred can do it if they really try, but you're basically asking something impossible.
The landlord is culpable, but if the mother is culpable then so are the state and the voters - if the mother had been able to receive enough state benefits to stay home and care for her four small children full time, this wouldn't have happened either. It is not unreasonable to want to give parents enough money to provide their kids with a full-time stay at home parent while they are small; in fact it's good for the kids, good for the parent, good for society as a whole.
posted by Frowner at 11:45 AM on November 16, 2022 [67 favorites]
I mean yes, if you have four kids then all four kids need care, but can you imagine being a single mom of four little kids, two of whom are high-needs, while having basically no social connections and apparently very little help from the dads? Plus a history of poverty and trauma?
It isn't the same kind of culpability, it isn't a both sides story. If you tell someone that they need to work to pay rent while also caring for four small children full time, something is going to give. It's like telling people that they have to do a plate-juggling act while singing the aria from Rigoletto - sure, maybe one person in a hundred can do it if they really try, but you're basically asking something impossible.
The landlord is culpable, but if the mother is culpable then so are the state and the voters - if the mother had been able to receive enough state benefits to stay home and care for her four small children full time, this wouldn't have happened either. It is not unreasonable to want to give parents enough money to provide their kids with a full-time stay at home parent while they are small; in fact it's good for the kids, good for the parent, good for society as a whole.
posted by Frowner at 11:45 AM on November 16, 2022 [67 favorites]
Milwaukee is just rife with slumlords. I moved into a place that sounds about this bad right before the pandemic, and got really sick from mold I didn't know was there until a year and a half later. I lost 2 laptops likely due to power issues, lots of personal belongings, 2 months rent and security deposit and the unit was probably illegally rented to me as they didn't have the permit needed for the number of people living in that building. That is just the tip of the iceberg of the one and a half years of living there.
I was lucky the place didn't burn down. The wiring was old. Power voltage must have dipped a lot as lights and fans would dim down momentarily. The plugs were loose and plugs would fall out. One time it happened and there was a bright blue flash. I'm lucky it was only that because I was sitting on the couch when it happened and the outlet was behind the couch.
When I asked the landlord to take a look after the plug falling out/spark, he poked at the outlet with a screwdriver, like literally poked the plastic plate around the actual plugs with a screwdriver and told me it was fine. When I said "Look, I've replaced outlets before and you didn't check anything." he made some vague excuse for poking it with the screwdriver and said they couldn't fix it because the wiring was too old and would crumble. I didn't pursue that further because this man literally scared me and had made not so subtle threats of physical harm over rent in the past.
The building already had two previous fires, one where the damage had not been repaired and the inspector felt was structural.
I've been considering suing, even spoke to legal aid about it, but again, Milwaukee is not great for this stuff, and Wisconsin generally is very much a "fuck tenants" state. The lawyer at legal aid said his biggest concern was that Wisconsin law makes it really easy for landlords to countersue tenants. I don't know what I'm going to do, as they cost me a lot and set me back even more at a time I was only just starting to get back on my feet. It's still within the statute of limitations so I still could, but I just don't know if I can handle it.
Also multiple complaints to the city for things like no heat and no power (self help eviction attempts by landlords) lead to 0 fines or actions against them. The city could compel them to address the issues, but wouldn't or couldn't to do anything to stop them going forward. So they were allowed to make life a living hell. I mean I feel traumatized, and the more time that passes, the clearer it becomes just how bad it was. The trauma part is the other hesitancy in perusing legal action, I dunno if I want to relive everything again.
But, again, the law is rough on tenants, and I don't know if I could deal with a countersuit financially or otherwise. Oh, and why is the law here in Wisconsin so landlord friendly? Because the representative writing the laws is a landlord. How that is ok is beyond me.
The buildings were eventually sold to a new landlord and the new people reside in the buildings. I live three blocks away and pass there from time to time. The new landlord re-sided the building, but you can see its shoddy as fuck and they only refaced the sides that are visible to the street. The code violations I reported (mold, electrical, fire damage, actively leaking water, furnace not maintained/no filter, probably more I don't remember) just closed in the database without being resolved after the sale. Maybe it was, but in the online system the city has, there was no resolution listed, only closed. I pass those buildings often enough to think about the hell I went through there.
I have no idea if the new landlords addressed the code violations. I have wanted so badly to reach out to the current tenants and tell them to get access to the basement, look for the same problems, especially if anyone is having health issues, where to look for the mold. But the legal aid lawyer advised me against it, pointing out no good deed goes unpunished. I still think about writing an anonymous letter to the units in the two buildings on that property every time I pass.
I know this comment is GYOB levels long, but just giving a boots on the ground, recent account of how bad landlords can be in Wisconsin. The more I dug into it, the more I realized my experience was far from unique. The last building inspector I spoke with was pretty clearly over the slumlords in the city, and as we walked through the violations in my unit and in the basement, she said that yeah, a lot of landlords will run a place to the ground, and when they accumulate enough damage/violations, just kick the tenants out and sell it for cheap.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2022 [29 favorites]
I was lucky the place didn't burn down. The wiring was old. Power voltage must have dipped a lot as lights and fans would dim down momentarily. The plugs were loose and plugs would fall out. One time it happened and there was a bright blue flash. I'm lucky it was only that because I was sitting on the couch when it happened and the outlet was behind the couch.
When I asked the landlord to take a look after the plug falling out/spark, he poked at the outlet with a screwdriver, like literally poked the plastic plate around the actual plugs with a screwdriver and told me it was fine. When I said "Look, I've replaced outlets before and you didn't check anything." he made some vague excuse for poking it with the screwdriver and said they couldn't fix it because the wiring was too old and would crumble. I didn't pursue that further because this man literally scared me and had made not so subtle threats of physical harm over rent in the past.
The building already had two previous fires, one where the damage had not been repaired and the inspector felt was structural.
I've been considering suing, even spoke to legal aid about it, but again, Milwaukee is not great for this stuff, and Wisconsin generally is very much a "fuck tenants" state. The lawyer at legal aid said his biggest concern was that Wisconsin law makes it really easy for landlords to countersue tenants. I don't know what I'm going to do, as they cost me a lot and set me back even more at a time I was only just starting to get back on my feet. It's still within the statute of limitations so I still could, but I just don't know if I can handle it.
Also multiple complaints to the city for things like no heat and no power (self help eviction attempts by landlords) lead to 0 fines or actions against them. The city could compel them to address the issues, but wouldn't or couldn't to do anything to stop them going forward. So they were allowed to make life a living hell. I mean I feel traumatized, and the more time that passes, the clearer it becomes just how bad it was. The trauma part is the other hesitancy in perusing legal action, I dunno if I want to relive everything again.
But, again, the law is rough on tenants, and I don't know if I could deal with a countersuit financially or otherwise. Oh, and why is the law here in Wisconsin so landlord friendly? Because the representative writing the laws is a landlord. How that is ok is beyond me.
The buildings were eventually sold to a new landlord and the new people reside in the buildings. I live three blocks away and pass there from time to time. The new landlord re-sided the building, but you can see its shoddy as fuck and they only refaced the sides that are visible to the street. The code violations I reported (mold, electrical, fire damage, actively leaking water, furnace not maintained/no filter, probably more I don't remember) just closed in the database without being resolved after the sale. Maybe it was, but in the online system the city has, there was no resolution listed, only closed. I pass those buildings often enough to think about the hell I went through there.
I have no idea if the new landlords addressed the code violations. I have wanted so badly to reach out to the current tenants and tell them to get access to the basement, look for the same problems, especially if anyone is having health issues, where to look for the mold. But the legal aid lawyer advised me against it, pointing out no good deed goes unpunished. I still think about writing an anonymous letter to the units in the two buildings on that property every time I pass.
I know this comment is GYOB levels long, but just giving a boots on the ground, recent account of how bad landlords can be in Wisconsin. The more I dug into it, the more I realized my experience was far from unique. The last building inspector I spoke with was pretty clearly over the slumlords in the city, and as we walked through the violations in my unit and in the basement, she said that yeah, a lot of landlords will run a place to the ground, and when they accumulate enough damage/violations, just kick the tenants out and sell it for cheap.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:07 PM on November 16, 2022 [29 favorites]
As usual, as always, Frowner put it best.
This "neglectful behaviour" issue. Is this some hangover from the fucking 1950s - that the baseline assumption remains that an earning parent & a caring parent for every child is ideal?
(Jesus. Capitalism. Mumble. Guilty Working Mum. Mumble. Now a Grandmother. Mumble. Wondering if my Daughter-in-Law is devoting Too Much Time to Her Job and Neglecting My Beloved GrandSon. Oh god, I am a Feminist Hypocrite. Oh God. Mumble.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 12:13 PM on November 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
This "neglectful behaviour" issue. Is this some hangover from the fucking 1950s - that the baseline assumption remains that an earning parent & a caring parent for every child is ideal?
(Jesus. Capitalism. Mumble. Guilty Working Mum. Mumble. Now a Grandmother. Mumble. Wondering if my Daughter-in-Law is devoting Too Much Time to Her Job and Neglecting My Beloved GrandSon. Oh god, I am a Feminist Hypocrite. Oh God. Mumble.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 12:13 PM on November 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
Holy shit, whoever "wired" that outlet pictured by cramming wires into the socket should be considered liable for manslaughter.
posted by biogeo at 12:35 PM on November 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 12:35 PM on November 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
I cried reading this, and am astounded that the both-sideism in some of the comments.
One person had an impossible set of tasks, did their damndest, and went to prison for failing.
The other had really easy tasks and fucked them all up because he couldn't be bothered and got off scott free.
But two sides to every story, amirite?
posted by Ickster at 2:09 PM on November 16, 2022 [30 favorites]
One person had an impossible set of tasks, did their damndest, and went to prison for failing.
The other had really easy tasks and fucked them all up because he couldn't be bothered and got off scott free.
But two sides to every story, amirite?
posted by Ickster at 2:09 PM on November 16, 2022 [30 favorites]
Thank you, Frowner, and Ickster, for saying what I can hardly voice due to outrage.
Explosion, yes, those are some facts. It's also a fact that society ALWAYS holds a mother to be at fault. Never mind the fact that those children's father(s?) and society ought to be equally vilified and held accountable for neglecting those kids. It's the mother--it's always the mother--the same mother who was in fact, working a shitty low-paying job that night that made her choose between buying groceries and paying the asshole landlord who, in point of fact, killed her kids with his greed. I'm sure she might have done the math at one point--the fact is that the amount to shelter and feed, clothe, and provide some modicum of health care for 4 kids, plus the cost of a babysitter while she worked, was not going to be covered by her minimum wage job. I'm sure Brunner and numerous others would cite the fact that she 'chose' to have four kids and was neglectful of them. And maybe she did choose. Or maybe she didn't. Maybe the fact is that choice was as far beyond her control as her ability to provide safe shelter for them. But I'll bet it's a fact that she mourned those kids, and the life she and they might have had, while she was sitting in her jail cell contemplating her ex-landlord's lack of culpability.
Here's another fact: It should be an inalienable right for half the human race to have the self-determination to choose, or not, to use birth control and to have access to an abortion. Selfish asshole politicians and holier than thou faux pro-lifer christians that value a few cells with no conscious awareness over actual living children maybe ought to stand up and share a smidgeon of responsibility for these deaths.
There are facts, and then there are truths.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:27 PM on November 16, 2022 [24 favorites]
Explosion, yes, those are some facts. It's also a fact that society ALWAYS holds a mother to be at fault. Never mind the fact that those children's father(s?) and society ought to be equally vilified and held accountable for neglecting those kids. It's the mother--it's always the mother--the same mother who was in fact, working a shitty low-paying job that night that made her choose between buying groceries and paying the asshole landlord who, in point of fact, killed her kids with his greed. I'm sure she might have done the math at one point--the fact is that the amount to shelter and feed, clothe, and provide some modicum of health care for 4 kids, plus the cost of a babysitter while she worked, was not going to be covered by her minimum wage job. I'm sure Brunner and numerous others would cite the fact that she 'chose' to have four kids and was neglectful of them. And maybe she did choose. Or maybe she didn't. Maybe the fact is that choice was as far beyond her control as her ability to provide safe shelter for them. But I'll bet it's a fact that she mourned those kids, and the life she and they might have had, while she was sitting in her jail cell contemplating her ex-landlord's lack of culpability.
Here's another fact: It should be an inalienable right for half the human race to have the self-determination to choose, or not, to use birth control and to have access to an abortion. Selfish asshole politicians and holier than thou faux pro-lifer christians that value a few cells with no conscious awareness over actual living children maybe ought to stand up and share a smidgeon of responsibility for these deaths.
There are facts, and then there are truths.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:27 PM on November 16, 2022 [24 favorites]
Nobody is defending the landlord; there are not two "sides." You can independently observe that it is negligent to leave your toddlers alone for long periods (especially after being warned repeatedly about this by welfare authorities) and also think the landlord is horrible. There isn't One True Wrongdoer. As seen in this thread, you can blame capitalism, the county authorities for not removing the kids, the mother, the father, the landlord, pro-lifers, etc.
In many states, in lawsuits involving injuries, juries are asked to apportion fault between different actors - like, 75% for the defendant, 10% for the victim, and 15% for some third party. That's because these types of tragedies often involve several culpable actors. I think that mechanism is a decent mental model for something like this. The "allocation" here represented by the treatment of the landlord and the mother in the courts isn't really apples-to-apples - the landlord was prosecuted for unrelated financial fraud, not the conditions that led to the fire - but I think it is fair to say in the big picture that the allocation was unfair, which is not the same as saying that the mother has zero culpability.
posted by Mid at 3:57 PM on November 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
In many states, in lawsuits involving injuries, juries are asked to apportion fault between different actors - like, 75% for the defendant, 10% for the victim, and 15% for some third party. That's because these types of tragedies often involve several culpable actors. I think that mechanism is a decent mental model for something like this. The "allocation" here represented by the treatment of the landlord and the mother in the courts isn't really apples-to-apples - the landlord was prosecuted for unrelated financial fraud, not the conditions that led to the fire - but I think it is fair to say in the big picture that the allocation was unfair, which is not the same as saying that the mother has zero culpability.
posted by Mid at 3:57 PM on November 16, 2022 [5 favorites]
the lawsuit the mother filed against the landlord was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction because she filed it in the wrong court, not because of any determination that Brunner was not culpable/liable.
This sounds like a simple technical explanation, but in fact the system is engineered to encourage as many such "mistakes."
In many states, in lawsuits involving injuries, juries are asked to apportion fault between different actors - like, 75% for the defendant, 10% for the victim, and 15% for some third party. That's because these types of tragedies often involve several culpable actors.
Is it a predictable consequence of his actions that the landlord had control over that the building caught fire? Yes. Is it a predictable consequence of leaving your small children alone that you have control over that they be caught in a burning building? No. There's not a generic "guilt for leaving the kids alone" that attaches to every bad thing that could have happened to the kids that night.
"Landlord" is just below "cop" on the list of occupations that most attract scumbags.
posted by praemunire at 4:59 PM on November 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
This sounds like a simple technical explanation, but in fact the system is engineered to encourage as many such "mistakes."
In many states, in lawsuits involving injuries, juries are asked to apportion fault between different actors - like, 75% for the defendant, 10% for the victim, and 15% for some third party. That's because these types of tragedies often involve several culpable actors.
Is it a predictable consequence of his actions that the landlord had control over that the building caught fire? Yes. Is it a predictable consequence of leaving your small children alone that you have control over that they be caught in a burning building? No. There's not a generic "guilt for leaving the kids alone" that attaches to every bad thing that could have happened to the kids that night.
"Landlord" is just below "cop" on the list of occupations that most attract scumbags.
posted by praemunire at 4:59 PM on November 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
It is screamingly predictable that leaving toddlers alone for hours without anyone to help them is likely to result in bodily harm to the toddlers. If they had been crushed under the TV or burned by the stove or drowned in the tub, I don’t think you’d say otherwise. It’s basically happenstance that it was a fire rather than one of those things.
posted by Mid at 5:39 PM on November 16, 2022
posted by Mid at 5:39 PM on November 16, 2022
Nobody is defending the landlord; there are not two "sides."
But one can certainly give the appearance that one feels the mother isn't getting her fair share of grief by the number of words one expends on that topic vs the topics of the judicial system or any of the other issues at play here.
posted by Ickster at 5:41 PM on November 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
But one can certainly give the appearance that one feels the mother isn't getting her fair share of grief by the number of words one expends on that topic vs the topics of the judicial system or any of the other issues at play here.
posted by Ickster at 5:41 PM on November 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
It is screamingly predictable that leaving toddlers alone for hours without anyone to help them is likely to result in bodily harm to the toddlers.
It's probably not all that predictable if that's how you were raised.
posted by Ickster at 5:43 PM on November 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
It's probably not all that predictable if that's how you were raised.
posted by Ickster at 5:43 PM on November 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
Never mind the fact that those children's father(s?) and society ought to be equally vilified and held accountable for neglecting those kids
This really struck me as missing information from the story - where the fuck were the fathers of those children this whole time? How the fuck do these men get off scot-free for failing to provide for and protect their children in any way? Even if it was just contributing financially so the mother wasn't forced into the awful position of having to leave her children alone so they didn't all end up homeless and starving, they are equally responsible for the welfare of their children and equally culpable for their deaths.
Looking back, the whole story of Belen's life was fixed when she was herself a small child. We (as a society) know so much about how childhood abuse so often ends up exactly this way and we do nothing of any impact to prevent it. Then, when the outcome we knew was coming happens, we point fingers at the mother and put her in prison for doing exactly what we set her up to do. There's no mention of Sosa's childhood in the story, but I'd bet there's a similar story in her childhood as well.
On what basis do we accept that renting a house out that we know is going to catch fire sooner or later not a crime in and of itself? Brunner was not some amateur investor dabbling in real estate to prop up a retirement fund, he was a professional landlord who knew exactly the risk he was putting people in and he did not care one bit. That looks exactly like neglectful homicide to me.
in lawsuits involving injuries, juries are asked to apportion fault between different actors
This is not a civil lawsuit where a jury has to decide how much money various parties might be forced to pay. This is a criminal matter where each party can and should have been separately held accountable for their crimes. But that didn't happen (more or less never does) and the only person held accountable for their actions is the one that had the least options. The landlord could have fixed the property without raising a sweat, the childrens' fathers could have supported their children. Both made conscious choices not to do these things. Belen made a wrong choice (in hindsight), faced with only bad choices to pick from. Once again, we have chosen money as being more important than people.
posted by dg at 5:44 PM on November 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
This really struck me as missing information from the story - where the fuck were the fathers of those children this whole time? How the fuck do these men get off scot-free for failing to provide for and protect their children in any way? Even if it was just contributing financially so the mother wasn't forced into the awful position of having to leave her children alone so they didn't all end up homeless and starving, they are equally responsible for the welfare of their children and equally culpable for their deaths.
Looking back, the whole story of Belen's life was fixed when she was herself a small child. We (as a society) know so much about how childhood abuse so often ends up exactly this way and we do nothing of any impact to prevent it. Then, when the outcome we knew was coming happens, we point fingers at the mother and put her in prison for doing exactly what we set her up to do. There's no mention of Sosa's childhood in the story, but I'd bet there's a similar story in her childhood as well.
On what basis do we accept that renting a house out that we know is going to catch fire sooner or later not a crime in and of itself? Brunner was not some amateur investor dabbling in real estate to prop up a retirement fund, he was a professional landlord who knew exactly the risk he was putting people in and he did not care one bit. That looks exactly like neglectful homicide to me.
in lawsuits involving injuries, juries are asked to apportion fault between different actors
This is not a civil lawsuit where a jury has to decide how much money various parties might be forced to pay. This is a criminal matter where each party can and should have been separately held accountable for their crimes. But that didn't happen (more or less never does) and the only person held accountable for their actions is the one that had the least options. The landlord could have fixed the property without raising a sweat, the childrens' fathers could have supported their children. Both made conscious choices not to do these things. Belen made a wrong choice (in hindsight), faced with only bad choices to pick from. Once again, we have chosen money as being more important than people.
posted by dg at 5:44 PM on November 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
I do a little volunteering with unhoused people. You know what happens when single mothers with very little money lose their jobs because they can't get childcare? They and their kids become homeless. That's why people leave their kids alone at home or at a park, and they leave them locked in the car or locked in a room because they can childproof the car or the room. This woman even says that she was afraid of losing her housing.
We tell people "don't leave your kids alone but also be sure to work enough hours in a shitty job that you don't become homeless, and we certainly aren't going to make sure you have child care" and then we are shocked when something bad happens.
Two friends of mine, facing the "small children, no childcare, shitty jobs" choice, started doing full service sex work because of the limited hours (so easier to deal with childcare) and high hourly rate. Now, for both of them this was possible (young, normatively good looking, sexually fairly experienced, confident, not against their values) but for a lot of people it's not. You have to live in a big metro area, for instance, because you need to keep your occupation secret so that your ex, the cops and your landlord can't use it against you. And of course, you need to be resilient enough that having sex with strangers doesn't stress you into collapse.
My point here being that these are damnable choices with no good answers.
Anywhere you live, there are lots of women locking their kids in their homes alone so that they can work. We hear about it when there's a fire, or when the woman doesn't actually have a safe home so the kid gets left in the car or a park. But believe me, right now this minute there are little kids alone at home while mom delivers your doordash or rings up your groceries.
posted by Frowner at 5:49 PM on November 16, 2022 [41 favorites]
We tell people "don't leave your kids alone but also be sure to work enough hours in a shitty job that you don't become homeless, and we certainly aren't going to make sure you have child care" and then we are shocked when something bad happens.
Two friends of mine, facing the "small children, no childcare, shitty jobs" choice, started doing full service sex work because of the limited hours (so easier to deal with childcare) and high hourly rate. Now, for both of them this was possible (young, normatively good looking, sexually fairly experienced, confident, not against their values) but for a lot of people it's not. You have to live in a big metro area, for instance, because you need to keep your occupation secret so that your ex, the cops and your landlord can't use it against you. And of course, you need to be resilient enough that having sex with strangers doesn't stress you into collapse.
My point here being that these are damnable choices with no good answers.
Anywhere you live, there are lots of women locking their kids in their homes alone so that they can work. We hear about it when there's a fire, or when the woman doesn't actually have a safe home so the kid gets left in the car or a park. But believe me, right now this minute there are little kids alone at home while mom delivers your doordash or rings up your groceries.
posted by Frowner at 5:49 PM on November 16, 2022 [41 favorites]
a couple of additional facts are helpful for context
I assume this is in response to just zenon’s summary, since all these facts are in the linked article.
posted by zamboni at 5:57 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
I assume this is in response to just zenon’s summary, since all these facts are in the linked article.
posted by zamboni at 5:57 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, I thought the summary did not include some important facts. To be clear, though, I’d be more than happy if the landlord had gone to prison.
posted by Mid at 6:01 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Mid at 6:01 PM on November 16, 2022 [1 favorite]
You can independently observe that it is negligent to leave your toddlers alone for long periods (especially after being warned repeatedly about this by welfare authorities)
"Stop leaving your kids home alone" is a useless and, quite frankly, cruel message from a state that would not do anything to help her get child care, safe housing, a living wage, or the support to stay home with them. They might as well have told her to stop being poor. "Especially after being warned repeatedly to stop being poor by the welfare authorities," she kept on being poor. Why didn't she heed the warnings? Who can say.
posted by Mavri at 6:17 PM on November 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
"Stop leaving your kids home alone" is a useless and, quite frankly, cruel message from a state that would not do anything to help her get child care, safe housing, a living wage, or the support to stay home with them. They might as well have told her to stop being poor. "Especially after being warned repeatedly to stop being poor by the welfare authorities," she kept on being poor. Why didn't she heed the warnings? Who can say.
posted by Mavri at 6:17 PM on November 16, 2022 [21 favorites]
Unable to find a lawyer, she ends up representing herself.
Wut? No elaboration here? This doesn't make sense.
A poor person being unable to find a lawyer for a civil suit makes perfect sense and happens all day every day.
posted by Mavri at 6:22 PM on November 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
Wut? No elaboration here? This doesn't make sense.
A poor person being unable to find a lawyer for a civil suit makes perfect sense and happens all day every day.
posted by Mavri at 6:22 PM on November 16, 2022 [11 favorites]
The courts in this case held that the woman who choose to live in a society without public childcare needed more punishment than just the death of her children.
I think the missing context that is relevant is that the wrong people are being burned alive.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 6:33 PM on November 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
I think the missing context that is relevant is that the wrong people are being burned alive.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 6:33 PM on November 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
> Mid: "To be clear, though, I’d be more than happy if the landlord had gone to prison."
Sure, ok. But I believe the bristly responses you've been getting in this thread are more to do with the inference/implication/suggestion that you're more than happy that Belen, the tenant, did get sent to prison.
posted by mhum at 6:34 PM on November 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sure, ok. But I believe the bristly responses you've been getting in this thread are more to do with the inference/implication/suggestion that you're more than happy that Belen, the tenant, did get sent to prison.
posted by mhum at 6:34 PM on November 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
It’s basically happenstance that it was a fire rather than one of those things.
The fire wasn't happenstance.
I'm a lawyer, too, but you can't let them buy your allegiance along with your time.
posted by praemunire at 7:02 PM on November 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
The fire wasn't happenstance.
I'm a lawyer, too, but you can't let them buy your allegiance along with your time.
posted by praemunire at 7:02 PM on November 16, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think we just need to stop talking all this in a circle and go back to providing safe and affordable public housing. I get being pissed at landlords; I’ve had a few. Some of them (likely most of them these days in some places) are straight up sociopathic misanthropic rentier assholes. But we have made it like shooting fish in a barrel for the landlords because dealing with them is the only option. The longer we persist in letting “the free market” deal with housing for low and middle income folks the more embedded the situation with homelessness is going to become. We need to take the landlords ability to profit from a rigged market away.
posted by cybrcamper at 7:09 PM on November 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by cybrcamper at 7:09 PM on November 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
It's also critical to remember that Belen describes being left alone with her sister at age five as some of the nicest time of her life. And not even left alone! Expected to walk home from kindergarten, then feed themselves, too.
Like her lived experience is so wildly different from others here, she had lived proof that you can leave small kids alone for a few hours with nothing bad happening to them. It may seem like obviously a bad idea to the rest of us, but if that was the only time of your whole life you weren't being abused in one way or another and just existing peaceably, then your risk assessment is going to be wildly different.
posted by Jilder at 7:57 PM on November 16, 2022 [15 favorites]
Like her lived experience is so wildly different from others here, she had lived proof that you can leave small kids alone for a few hours with nothing bad happening to them. It may seem like obviously a bad idea to the rest of us, but if that was the only time of your whole life you weren't being abused in one way or another and just existing peaceably, then your risk assessment is going to be wildly different.
posted by Jilder at 7:57 PM on November 16, 2022 [15 favorites]
From the article, when Belen is being interrogated: "They offer her an out: By locking her kids in, she thought she was keeping them safe. The kids couldn’t get to the kitchen and play with knives. They couldn’t leave the house and wander into traffic."
It's worth pointing out that she wasn't really being 'offered an out' here. This is from the shady Reid technique: "Pose the 'alternative question', giving two choices for what happened; one more socially acceptable than the other. The suspect is expected to choose the easier option but whichever alternative the suspect chooses, guilt is admitted. There is always a third option which is to maintain that they did not commit the crime."
posted by alphanerd at 8:08 PM on November 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that she wasn't really being 'offered an out' here. This is from the shady Reid technique: "Pose the 'alternative question', giving two choices for what happened; one more socially acceptable than the other. The suspect is expected to choose the easier option but whichever alternative the suspect chooses, guilt is admitted. There is always a third option which is to maintain that they did not commit the crime."
posted by alphanerd at 8:08 PM on November 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
“There was nobody in your life at all that could have watched your kids?”posted by brook horse at 8:10 PM on November 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
“I have nobody.”
“Why didn’t you build a better support system for yourself?” Kulinski asks.
“What support system? These people were never there for me.”
Belen tells the detective: “There’s been nobody in my life. For 24 years I’ve been either beaten, abused, left alone to fend for myself. That’s, that’s what I’ve had.”
The situation is even more diabolical than just not having child care. Per the article, child care was available, but she had to go through the hoop of getting forms signed by her employer to verify that she needed it because she was working. Typical of the Catch-22’s poor people are put through to get help in this country - in order to have an employer to sign the forms to get child care, you have to already have child care so you can start working.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:11 PM on November 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:11 PM on November 16, 2022 [7 favorites]
I struggled with how to post this - I choose to name those that perpetuated the systemic inequalities, the landlord, a prosecutor, one of the judges. I couldn't think of a way to summarize the renter that wasn't just repeating the whole article. I just couldn't. So I understand why some folks are focusing on my framing.
Even without her history, and the systemic racism, even with out her economic situation, even if you have the most unsympathetic view, she's still serving 16 years for the charges of neglecting her children. And she still has to live with their loss. The authors note how unusually severe this sentence is. And she is without contact with her fourth child.
I think of when people get charged for forgetting their children in the car seat on a hot day. I think about that all the time, even though my kids aren't in car seats anymore.
posted by zenon at 10:15 PM on November 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
Even without her history, and the systemic racism, even with out her economic situation, even if you have the most unsympathetic view, she's still serving 16 years for the charges of neglecting her children. And she still has to live with their loss. The authors note how unusually severe this sentence is. And she is without contact with her fourth child.
I think of when people get charged for forgetting their children in the car seat on a hot day. I think about that all the time, even though my kids aren't in car seats anymore.
posted by zenon at 10:15 PM on November 16, 2022 [8 favorites]
It is screamingly predictable that leaving toddlers alone for hours without anyone to help them is likely to result in bodily harm to the toddlers.
Hi there. There's some amount of survivorship bias involved, but some of us grew up without constant supervision and managed not to die. In my case CPS wouldn't have gotten involved since there was technically always an adult in the house, but mom was what they called bedridden at the time, so there was little to no supervision involved. Her presence could be helpful in some situations, but certainly wouldn't have improved the situation in case of a fire.
Thankfully for me, she knew it was coming and was able to teach me how to feed myself, bathe myself, dress myself and not get hit by cars and otherwise be sufficiently independent to get through a day before her disease progressed to the point where she couldn't do any of the child care stuff. And yeah, that meant it was on me to get myself out of bed and to school, starting in kindergarten.
I certainly won't argue that the situation was in any sense ideal, but turning it criminal seems unhelpful at best except in cases of extreme neglect. There seems to be this pervasive sense that if bad shit happens somebody has to be prosecuted, especially if it happens to a kid. I'd argue that no, sometimes bad shit happens and it doesn't rise to the level of being criminal. In this case there is someone who should have been prosecuted but they weren't the one who got consecutive sentences.
posted by wierdo at 12:18 AM on November 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
Hi there. There's some amount of survivorship bias involved, but some of us grew up without constant supervision and managed not to die. In my case CPS wouldn't have gotten involved since there was technically always an adult in the house, but mom was what they called bedridden at the time, so there was little to no supervision involved. Her presence could be helpful in some situations, but certainly wouldn't have improved the situation in case of a fire.
Thankfully for me, she knew it was coming and was able to teach me how to feed myself, bathe myself, dress myself and not get hit by cars and otherwise be sufficiently independent to get through a day before her disease progressed to the point where she couldn't do any of the child care stuff. And yeah, that meant it was on me to get myself out of bed and to school, starting in kindergarten.
I certainly won't argue that the situation was in any sense ideal, but turning it criminal seems unhelpful at best except in cases of extreme neglect. There seems to be this pervasive sense that if bad shit happens somebody has to be prosecuted, especially if it happens to a kid. I'd argue that no, sometimes bad shit happens and it doesn't rise to the level of being criminal. In this case there is someone who should have been prosecuted but they weren't the one who got consecutive sentences.
posted by wierdo at 12:18 AM on November 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
Per the article, child care was available, but she had to go through the hoop of getting forms signed by her employer to verify that she needed it because she was working.
Right, she was literally 24 hours away from having safe childcare. The cost of getting that childcare was to take a huge gamble and leave her kids alone for a shift. If the gamble had paid off, she not only would not be in prison now but might even be in a place of much greater economic stability. (Or not, the world is very hard on those who are scraping by. But it's possible.)
Count me in as another kid who had to be coached on what we could and couldn't say to other adults about who watched us when our parents were at work. It happens all the time.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:04 AM on November 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
Right, she was literally 24 hours away from having safe childcare. The cost of getting that childcare was to take a huge gamble and leave her kids alone for a shift. If the gamble had paid off, she not only would not be in prison now but might even be in a place of much greater economic stability. (Or not, the world is very hard on those who are scraping by. But it's possible.)
Count me in as another kid who had to be coached on what we could and couldn't say to other adults about who watched us when our parents were at work. It happens all the time.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:04 AM on November 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
You can independently observe that it is negligent to leave your toddlers alone for long periods (especially after being warned repeatedly about this by welfare authorities)
Poor people are constantly left having to choose between different bad options with no viable good ones.
Let's say an evil genie suddenly appears and turns you into a young woman in her situation. What's your magical non-negligent solution for how you'd responsibly provide childcare while still managing to feed them and keep a roof over their head. Remember that they'd previously been homeless. Is being on the streets again more negligent than leaving them alone? Again, which bad option do you want to choose?
posted by Candleman at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Poor people are constantly left having to choose between different bad options with no viable good ones.
Let's say an evil genie suddenly appears and turns you into a young woman in her situation. What's your magical non-negligent solution for how you'd responsibly provide childcare while still managing to feed them and keep a roof over their head. Remember that they'd previously been homeless. Is being on the streets again more negligent than leaving them alone? Again, which bad option do you want to choose?
posted by Candleman at 6:08 PM on November 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
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