Cells, is there anything they can't do?
November 26, 2022 11:42 PM Subscribe
@SCOTTeHENSLEY: "We developed a new multivalent mRNA vaccine against all known influenza virus subtypes. Our study describing the vaccine was just published..."
A multivalent nucleoside-modified mRNA vaccine against all known influenza virus subtypes
A multivalent nucleoside-modified mRNA vaccine against all known influenza virus subtypes
Seasonal influenza vaccines offer little protection against pandemic influenza virus strains. It is difficult to create effective prepandemic vaccines because it is uncertain which influenza virus subtype will cause the next pandemic. In this work, we developed a nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (mRNA)–lipid nanoparticle vaccine encoding hemagglutinin antigens from all 20 known influenza A virus subtypes and influenza B virus lineages. This multivalent vaccine elicited high levels of cross-reactive and subtype-specific antibodies in mice and ferrets that reacted to all 20 encoded antigens. Vaccination protected mice and ferrets challenged with matched and mismatched viral strains, and this protection was at least partially dependent on antibodies. Our studies indicate that mRNA vaccines can provide protection against antigenically variable viruses by simultaneously inducing antibodies against multiple antigens.
- The influenza universe in an mRNA vaccine - "An mRNA–lipid nanoparticle vaccine protects animals from 20 influenza lineages."
- Promising universal flu vaccine could protect against 20 strains - "An mRNA vaccine has been found to induce antibody responses against all 20 known subtypes of influenza A and B in mice and ferrets."
- Experimental flu vaccine, developed using mRNA, seen as potential game changer - "An experimental influenza vaccine developed using mRNA technology appears capable of inducing what should be a protective immune response against all known subtypes of flu, at least in animals."
- New mRNA vaccine targeting all known flu strains shows early promise - "A new has study found a new mRNA flu vaccine produced high levels of antibody protection in mice and ferrets against all flu strains, which could one day help pave the way for a universal flu shot."
- @SteveStuWill: "Wow! Scientists have observed a single-cell alga evolve in real time into a multicellular organism. The transition took around a year and was caused by the introduction of a predator into the environment."[1,2]
- @GeorgeMonbiot: "Last night I ate my first 3-D constructed steak, made entirely from plants, at the great Chouchou restaurant in Stockholm. It's astonishing. The texture's exactly right and the taste is excellent. This is *before* we have precision fermented proteins, encapsulated fats and heme... We are on the way to microbial meat that will be indistinguishable from the flesh of animals."
Because I’m crap at science, is there any way that this will allow people allergic to current flu vaccines (uh, hi) to get vaccinated? I work with junior high kids, and every year is a crap shoot as to whether I’ll get sick or not. If this represents a possible way around flu shot allergies, I’d be thrilled.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:17 AM on November 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Ghidorah at 2:17 AM on November 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
So, now, instead of a day or two, your shoulder will hurt for three or four months.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:51 AM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:51 AM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
> is there any way that this will allow people allergic to current flu vaccines (uh, hi) to get vaccinated?
My cursory layman's understanding is that most or all flu vaccine allergies are an allergic reaction to an chicken egg protein since they're made using eggs.
mayoclinic
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:57 AM on November 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
My cursory layman's understanding is that most or all flu vaccine allergies are an allergic reaction to an chicken egg protein since they're made using eggs.
mayoclinic
There are two flu vaccines that don't contain egg proteins and are approved for use in adults age 18 and older.Best to check with your physician and pharmacist?
...
A skin test may be needed to see if you're truly allergic to eggs. A nurse or doctor will scratch a tiny amount of egg protein on your skin and watch to see if your skin reacts to it.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:57 AM on November 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
This is so exciting! Now if we can just get people to get the vaccine…
posted by obfuscation at 4:11 AM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by obfuscation at 4:11 AM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
"in mice (and ferrets)"
posted by achrise at 6:34 AM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by achrise at 6:34 AM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
This sounds like such a huge breakthrough* I had to read it twice to convince myself I had it right. Amazing to see the promise of mRNA technology proceeding apace. My understanding is that in addition to removing the guesswork in annual vaccine targeting, this also would allow flu vaccines to target not only common seasonal strains, but also the less-predictable pandemic-type strains. "No more flu pandemics" is a pretty great upgrade to the world.
*yes, yes, in mice
posted by egregious theorem at 6:36 AM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
*yes, yes, in mice
posted by egregious theorem at 6:36 AM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm sticking with ivermectin.
(Because on the Internet, no one knows you're a horse.)
posted by delfin at 8:08 AM on November 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
(Because on the Internet, no one knows you're a horse.)
posted by delfin at 8:08 AM on November 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
Shouldn't that be "no one knows you're not a horse?"
posted by Zumbador at 8:44 AM on November 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 8:44 AM on November 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is great news. Please god let us wipe out the flu & the rest of these motherfucking viruses on the motherfucking plane. This is my prayer.
posted by bleep at 8:47 AM on November 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:47 AM on November 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
I got five COVID shots yet still became miserably unwell (albeit not dangerously so) with COVID.
I'm a firm believer in science and vaccines in general, but is there reason to think a broad-spectrum flu vaccine will work better than a broad-spectrum coronavirus vaccine does?
I'm sure that even if it does not, it can still be an improvement over our current arrangement. But I'm not going to tell myself "I'll never get the flu again."
posted by Western Infidels at 9:52 AM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a firm believer in science and vaccines in general, but is there reason to think a broad-spectrum flu vaccine will work better than a broad-spectrum coronavirus vaccine does?
I'm sure that even if it does not, it can still be an improvement over our current arrangement. But I'm not going to tell myself "I'll never get the flu again."
posted by Western Infidels at 9:52 AM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
is there reason to think a broad-spectrum flu vaccine will work better than a broad-spectrum coronavirus vaccine does?
A heuristic reasons to think so: influenza has somewhat stabilized in the human population, whereas Covid was new and has been radiating rapidly, though there are signs its mutation rate may be slowing down to a more normal rate, comparable to other RNA viruses. ("Our findings confirmed the scientific hypothesis that the rate of evolution of the virus gradually decreases over time.")
Also, it would seem typical flu strains are already in some sense much less transmissible than Covid, as seen by the near-absence of flu cases where people were masking/distancing/minimizing contact, while Covid ran through those same populations with ease.
Finally, we don't have a broad-spectrum Covid vacccine. The newest ones I'm aware of are bivalent (2 strains). This new flu vaccine is icosavalent (ie 20 strains).
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:36 AM on November 27, 2022 [21 favorites]
A heuristic reasons to think so: influenza has somewhat stabilized in the human population, whereas Covid was new and has been radiating rapidly, though there are signs its mutation rate may be slowing down to a more normal rate, comparable to other RNA viruses. ("Our findings confirmed the scientific hypothesis that the rate of evolution of the virus gradually decreases over time.")
Also, it would seem typical flu strains are already in some sense much less transmissible than Covid, as seen by the near-absence of flu cases where people were masking/distancing/minimizing contact, while Covid ran through those same populations with ease.
Finally, we don't have a broad-spectrum Covid vacccine. The newest ones I'm aware of are bivalent (2 strains). This new flu vaccine is icosavalent (ie 20 strains).
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:36 AM on November 27, 2022 [21 favorites]
> is there any way that this will allow people allergic to current flu vaccines (uh, hi) to get vaccinated?
My cursory layman's understanding is that most or all flu vaccine allergies are an allergic reaction to an chicken egg protein since they're made using eggs.
That may not hold true for an mRNA vaccine. Flu vaccine is made in eggs currently because they're growing the actual virus to attenuate and use for the shots. This new process may not involve eggs at all in the manufacturing.
posted by hippybear at 11:59 AM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
My cursory layman's understanding is that most or all flu vaccine allergies are an allergic reaction to an chicken egg protein since they're made using eggs.
That may not hold true for an mRNA vaccine. Flu vaccine is made in eggs currently because they're growing the actual virus to attenuate and use for the shots. This new process may not involve eggs at all in the manufacturing.
posted by hippybear at 11:59 AM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
is there reason to think a broad-spectrum flu vaccine will work better than a broad-spectrum coronavirus vaccine does?
What SaltySalticid said (we're still waiting for a broad-spectrum coronavirus vaccine, we're not there at all), but also I think like with the covid vaccine there's still going to be a question of how long increased immunity actually lasts and when it starts to fade. Flu shots have been an annual thing because (as far as I understand) of the need to match whatever strain is dominant in a given year. With a multivalent vaccine, that hopefully won't be necessary, but I wonder if effectiveness will still wane over time, meaning that there's no such thing as "permanently fully vaccinated" - just "up to date".
posted by trig at 12:23 PM on November 27, 2022
What SaltySalticid said (we're still waiting for a broad-spectrum coronavirus vaccine, we're not there at all), but also I think like with the covid vaccine there's still going to be a question of how long increased immunity actually lasts and when it starts to fade. Flu shots have been an annual thing because (as far as I understand) of the need to match whatever strain is dominant in a given year. With a multivalent vaccine, that hopefully won't be necessary, but I wonder if effectiveness will still wane over time, meaning that there's no such thing as "permanently fully vaccinated" - just "up to date".
posted by trig at 12:23 PM on November 27, 2022
I remember when the Covid vaccines first came out and my kids were a little anxious about (eventually) getting a new kind of vaccine -- and to be honest, so was I. (Less because of any vaccine hesitancy -- I get every shot anyone will offer me, and I've participated in human vaccine trials before -- and more because I have three minor children now and I worry much more about side effects of "new" treatments etc.)
"I'm sure they're very safe, everything I've read about mRNA vaccines say they're amazing, and lots of doctors and scientists volunteered to be in the human testing cohorts," I told them, upbeat and encouraging. "But let's find a video to explain how they work."
So I went hunting and found a PBS science short, 15 minutes or so, about the new Covid vaccines, and we put it on and all watched. It went over why scientists began researching mRNA vaccines and why they're cool, how they're manufactured, and how they work, and when the video finished and the credits started rolling, we all sat staring at the TV in stunned silence.
"Wow," my 9-year-old finally said. "I want that."
We all came away with the sense that we were witnessing, in real time, the development and first large-scale use of a truly world-changing technology, on the level of the polio vaccine or penicillin or anesthesia.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:51 PM on November 27, 2022 [40 favorites]
"I'm sure they're very safe, everything I've read about mRNA vaccines say they're amazing, and lots of doctors and scientists volunteered to be in the human testing cohorts," I told them, upbeat and encouraging. "But let's find a video to explain how they work."
So I went hunting and found a PBS science short, 15 minutes or so, about the new Covid vaccines, and we put it on and all watched. It went over why scientists began researching mRNA vaccines and why they're cool, how they're manufactured, and how they work, and when the video finished and the credits started rolling, we all sat staring at the TV in stunned silence.
"Wow," my 9-year-old finally said. "I want that."
We all came away with the sense that we were witnessing, in real time, the development and first large-scale use of a truly world-changing technology, on the level of the polio vaccine or penicillin or anesthesia.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:51 PM on November 27, 2022 [40 favorites]
So, now, instead of a day or two, your shoulder will hurt for three or four months.
That seems like an uncharacteristically tone-deaf response to what might well be one of the most significant medical breakthroughs of my lifetime. I’m sorry if some injection gave you months of pain, but you must realize you can’t expand that to the general population, right? Especially in a climate where we can’t get some parents to vaccinate against fucking *polio.*
posted by aspersioncast at 5:09 PM on November 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
That seems like an uncharacteristically tone-deaf response to what might well be one of the most significant medical breakthroughs of my lifetime. I’m sorry if some injection gave you months of pain, but you must realize you can’t expand that to the general population, right? Especially in a climate where we can’t get some parents to vaccinate against fucking *polio.*
posted by aspersioncast at 5:09 PM on November 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
I haven’t RTFAs yet, but as soon as the COVID mRNA vaccine was approved I wondered if the same approach could improve the flu vaccine. Looks like they are working on it.
posted by TedW at 6:06 PM on November 27, 2022
posted by TedW at 6:06 PM on November 27, 2022
My understanding, TedW, is that a flu vaccine was Moderna's big target, pre-COVID. Suddenly, and unfortunately, they got to have a huge emergency human trial into the safety and efficacy of mRNA based methods.
posted by stevis23 at 6:23 PM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by stevis23 at 6:23 PM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
So our existing flu vaccines are already quadrivalent. Is there a reason we need/prefer mRNA technology to take that up to 20-variant? Or would it be possible to design 20-variant conventional inactivated-virus vaccines?
posted by vasi at 6:50 PM on November 27, 2022
posted by vasi at 6:50 PM on November 27, 2022
That seems like an uncharacteristically tone-deaf response to
I read it as a lighthearted joke that the annoying downside of flu vaccines will be proportional to this newly multiplied upside. Which is of course unlikely.
posted by CaseyB at 6:53 PM on November 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
I read it as a lighthearted joke that the annoying downside of flu vaccines will be proportional to this newly multiplied upside. Which is of course unlikely.
posted by CaseyB at 6:53 PM on November 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
My understanding, TedW, is that a flu vaccine was Moderna's big target, pre-COVID
I’m not sure about Moderna, but it was definitely an interest in the vaccine community pre-Covid. I was at a vaccine think tank meeting in late 2019 and they were planning to make the next year’s topic the universal flu vaccine (that year they discussed vaccine hesitancy). Over breakfast one day I asked one of the experts if it was actually feasible because it seemed so far fetched to me. He said yes, that it would probably only take a few years with the right community focus and funding.
Then Covid hit and on one hand it was great to have so much funding, (government and societal) support and widespread scientific participation in vaccine development. But on the other hand there’s only so much of those resources and Covid sucked it all dry.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:10 PM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’m not sure about Moderna, but it was definitely an interest in the vaccine community pre-Covid. I was at a vaccine think tank meeting in late 2019 and they were planning to make the next year’s topic the universal flu vaccine (that year they discussed vaccine hesitancy). Over breakfast one day I asked one of the experts if it was actually feasible because it seemed so far fetched to me. He said yes, that it would probably only take a few years with the right community focus and funding.
Then Covid hit and on one hand it was great to have so much funding, (government and societal) support and widespread scientific participation in vaccine development. But on the other hand there’s only so much of those resources and Covid sucked it all dry.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:10 PM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Eyebrows, do you happen to have a link to that video?
posted by kristi at 7:43 PM on November 27, 2022
posted by kristi at 7:43 PM on November 27, 2022
So our existing flu vaccines are already quadrivalent. Is there a reason we need/prefer mRNA technology to take that up to 20-variant? Or would it be possible to design 20-variant conventional inactivated-virus vaccines?
The Science perspective (3rd link) suggests not. Not my area, but I'd speculate that the whole virus approach, when amped up to twenty viruses, gets so many total proteins as potential targets that it hits diminishing returns.
The RNA approach just has 20 versions of a single protein (ie, the same functional one, but with different sequences for each strain) and the response seems to have triggered some antibody targeting of non-variable regions of that one protein. So AFAICT legitimate advance, not just the same old thing with the trendy RNA platform.
Of course, the "in mice" suffix to this research is critical to keep in mind. A while before human benefit occurs (if it ever does)
posted by mark k at 7:46 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Science perspective (3rd link) suggests not. Not my area, but I'd speculate that the whole virus approach, when amped up to twenty viruses, gets so many total proteins as potential targets that it hits diminishing returns.
The RNA approach just has 20 versions of a single protein (ie, the same functional one, but with different sequences for each strain) and the response seems to have triggered some antibody targeting of non-variable regions of that one protein. So AFAICT legitimate advance, not just the same old thing with the trendy RNA platform.
Of course, the "in mice" suffix to this research is critical to keep in mind. A while before human benefit occurs (if it ever does)
posted by mark k at 7:46 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Keeping my fingers crossed that this will finally be the path for a modern tuberculosis vaccine. 1.6 million deaths in 2021 (in spite of COVID precautions) and increasing drug resistance. It would sure be nice to turn the tide on that fucker.
posted by McBearclaw at 7:56 PM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by McBearclaw at 7:56 PM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I read it as a lighthearted joke that the annoying downside of flu vaccines will be proportional to this newly multiplied upside. Which is of course unlikely.
Ah.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:15 PM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ah.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:15 PM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
"Eyebrows, do you happen to have a link to that video?"
I THINK it was this one, although only like 90% positive: Inside the Lab that Created the Covid-19 Vaccine.
We definitely watched it in December 2020, when the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines had just been approved for EUA and were being administered to health care workers. Pfizer was apparently approved Dec 11, 2020. Illinois received its first shipment of 50,000 doses on Dec 14, and began vaccinating health care workers (5:40 is when they start giving shots) in the highest-risk areas on Dec 15. (Two counties near Chicago, two near St. Louis.)
One of the hospitals in Peoria was a site for human trials in Covid-19 vaccinations (it has the only Level I trauma center between Chicago and St. Louis), and while by 2020 several members of my (10-year, BFF) book club had moved away, including me, I am proud to report that all my book club ladies who still lived in Peoria signed up for the phase-3 human trials and got Covid shots (or placebos) between August and October in 2020.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:18 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I THINK it was this one, although only like 90% positive: Inside the Lab that Created the Covid-19 Vaccine.
We definitely watched it in December 2020, when the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines had just been approved for EUA and were being administered to health care workers. Pfizer was apparently approved Dec 11, 2020. Illinois received its first shipment of 50,000 doses on Dec 14, and began vaccinating health care workers (5:40 is when they start giving shots) in the highest-risk areas on Dec 15. (Two counties near Chicago, two near St. Louis.)
One of the hospitals in Peoria was a site for human trials in Covid-19 vaccinations (it has the only Level I trauma center between Chicago and St. Louis), and while by 2020 several members of my (10-year, BFF) book club had moved away, including me, I am proud to report that all my book club ladies who still lived in Peoria signed up for the phase-3 human trials and got Covid shots (or placebos) between August and October in 2020.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:18 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
How does humanity simultaneously continually disappoint me (the general layperson's reaction to public health measures during this pandemic) and bowl me over to the point of tears at its ingenuity and truly stunning scientific achievements? SMH, the worst of us make it so hard to go on but the best of us never stop making it worthwhile.
posted by petiteviolette at 3:33 PM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by petiteviolette at 3:33 PM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
« Older If you fake the funk, your nose will grow. | hi hungry, I'm dad Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I don’t want to derail the post by talking about fake meat, but this is a great article about fake meat (from 2019!) by the food writer Alicia Kennedy.
posted by The River Ivel at 12:16 AM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]