The Freedom to Walk Act
December 13, 2022 12:17 PM Subscribe
The US state of California, where car culture is so ingrained that it spawned its own Saturday Night Live sketch series, has made jaywalking legal starting in 2023 in the Freedom to Walk Act. [...] Pedestrians can only be ticketed for jaywalking – or crossing outside of an intersection – if there is “immediate danger of a collision". The cost of a jaywalking ticket in California could be as much as $250, compared to $1 in jaywalking-friendly Boston. (jaywalking previously and previouslier)
I j-walk but way more since early covid, as many others started j-walking at that time. It felt like people were taking back the streets while there was less traffic. And, as mentioned above, it’s much safer to cross mid street than at the intersection most of the time.
posted by marimeko at 12:55 PM on December 13, 2022
posted by marimeko at 12:55 PM on December 13, 2022
I went to college in Boston, where you just kind of cross the street wherever you want, whenever you want. Summer after senior year me a couple of friends road tripped to California, driving basically straight to the pacific ocean, stopping for food and gas along the way. We finally arrived just after sunrise, parked in a parking spot along some 8 lane-ish boulevard next to the ocean, walked across all 8 lanes (not a car in sight in either direction) intending to go get in the pacific ocean for the first EXCEPT a cop car came FLYING up on us out of nowhere, sirens and everything. They skidding to a halt right in front of us. Both cops JUMP out, start screaming at us, put us up against a wall and aggressively pat us down, freaking the fuck out the whole time about us jaywalking across a deserted street. They finally calm down enough to let us get a word in and we say that we're not from California. They ask where we're from, "Boston!", and they reply with a very loaded "OH IN BOSTON YOU CAN JUST WALK ACROSS THE STREET WHEREVER YOU WANT?!" - an idea that was obviously totally ludicrous to them based on their tone. And we just reply "uhm, yeah actually", which they thought was us being assholes but really is/was the truth. We got a stern talking to and were let go, totally insane way to experience California for the very first time.
posted by youthenrage at 1:08 PM on December 13, 2022 [68 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 1:08 PM on December 13, 2022 [68 favorites]
This is good in theory, but doesn't the "immediate danger of collision" language still leave this open for arbitrary and inequitable enforcement? Like, when people jaywalk to get across a six or ten-lane stroad with no pedestrian crossing for literal miles, it's not generally safe -- but it may be the only realistic option for those without a car. I hope this bill helps, and I hope we get to see some reporting on how enforcement actually shakes out on this one.
posted by ourobouros at 1:11 PM on December 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by ourobouros at 1:11 PM on December 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
I got told off by another pedestrian in Culver City about 3 years ago crossing what was a basically a zero-risk intersection against the light. It was daytime, there wasn't a single car around (somehow), and the crossing was only two lanes. I was gobsmacked. People get ticketed for that? I've never lived anywhere that jaywalking wasn't fully expected, let alone permitted. California is wild, man.
posted by uncleozzy at 1:13 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by uncleozzy at 1:13 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't want to be pessimistic, but I have a feeling this law will be enforced more harshly and more frequently in Skid Row and Pico-Union than it will be on Rodeo Drive.
Prove me wrong, LAPD!
posted by box at 1:24 PM on December 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Prove me wrong, LAPD!
posted by box at 1:24 PM on December 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
This thread is pretty great so far because I grew up in Los Angeles and learned as a kid that jaywalking is something you must NEVER EVER DO because it's illegal and dangerous, and even after moving out of California it still really gets under my skin when I see other people jaywalk because that part of me is still screaming about "how do they keep getting away with this don't they know how bad it is" and so on. And now that this is happening, I have to look back and go "what was that all about, anyway?".
posted by wanderingmind at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by wanderingmind at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
As a confirmed and defiant jaywalker, I am finally vindicated.
posted by RedEmma at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by RedEmma at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I got a pretty hefty ticket for jaywalking in Seattle shortly after moving there, so this isn't just a California thing.
posted by primethyme at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by primethyme at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
FDOT has these billboards all over Tampa and I assume elsewhere that say, explicitly, that you’re not allowed to run over pedestrians lawfully occupying the crosswalk with the light in their favor, obvs implying that any other time/place pedestrians are 100% in play. It gives me rabies.
posted by toodleydoodley at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 1:40 PM on December 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also from the Boston area. I've only ever known jaywalking as something that happens in old movies. There are some roads where I wouldn't cross them anywhere other than a crosswalk for self-preservation reasons (I'm looking at you DCR Parkways) but that's my choice as a pedestrian. I've also found that cops working construction details are usually pretty cool about stepping into the road and stopping traffic so you can cross whether or not there's a crosswalk.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:41 PM on December 13, 2022
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:41 PM on December 13, 2022
huh, it sounds like the anti-jwalking thing is more SoCal? I have lived in the Bay Area a long time and I always jwalk (altho only when there are no cars) my husband grew up in the Bay Area and thinks nothing of jwalking into traffic and making the cars stop for him (which I don't think is cool).
I mostly jwalk on smaller streets in my neighborhood, not major arteries. (altho I have run across the PCH at night, carrying a christmas tree. don't try this at home, folks!)
posted by supermedusa at 1:41 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mostly jwalk on smaller streets in my neighborhood, not major arteries. (altho I have run across the PCH at night, carrying a christmas tree. don't try this at home, folks!)
posted by supermedusa at 1:41 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean, the laws are the same, but no one up here is like "omg don't jwalk!"
posted by supermedusa at 1:43 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 1:43 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
For context: The Classist, Racist History of Jaywalking
Jay, like 'black crow' or 'crow', was a 19th century epithet for black men, more specifically free and wandering black men in the South.
During the 1920s, automobile industry advocates teamed up with racist politicians alarmed over the Great Migration of blacks from the Deep South. It began with Kansas... but as anti-car legislation was considered in California and Ohio, Sloan and others launched a media campaign to criminalize jay walking.... across the 20th century, Jaywalking has been a primary pretext for stopping and searching black and POC pedestrians... it is an instrument of oppression, nothing more, nothing less, that has always been applied with white supremacist motives of law enforcement.
Jaywalking is a slave catcher's law, always was, always will be. It has no place in the statutes of a civilized society.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 1:51 PM on December 13, 2022 [57 favorites]
Jay, like 'black crow' or 'crow', was a 19th century epithet for black men, more specifically free and wandering black men in the South.
During the 1920s, automobile industry advocates teamed up with racist politicians alarmed over the Great Migration of blacks from the Deep South. It began with Kansas... but as anti-car legislation was considered in California and Ohio, Sloan and others launched a media campaign to criminalize jay walking.... across the 20th century, Jaywalking has been a primary pretext for stopping and searching black and POC pedestrians... it is an instrument of oppression, nothing more, nothing less, that has always been applied with white supremacist motives of law enforcement.
Jaywalking is a slave catcher's law, always was, always will be. It has no place in the statutes of a civilized society.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 1:51 PM on December 13, 2022 [57 favorites]
I got yelled at in Calgary for jaywalking once. I didn't even know it was a thing. We looked down the street both ways, basically nothing in sight but the horizon, so we walked across. A local woman screamed at as "What the hell is WRONG with you people? Don't you know that's ILLEGAL?"
I was stunned. I am from the Boston area and if I didn't jaywalk regularly I would probably still be stuck on a corner of Mass Ave somewhere.
posted by bondcliff at 1:52 PM on December 13, 2022 [27 favorites]
I was stunned. I am from the Boston area and if I didn't jaywalk regularly I would probably still be stuck on a corner of Mass Ave somewhere.
posted by bondcliff at 1:52 PM on December 13, 2022 [27 favorites]
I've never heard of anyone getting a ticket for jaywalking in my area, but there have been several incidents in recent memory where a pedestrian was hit by a car outside of a crosswalk and the driver wasn't held responsible. Personally, I only do it on flat, straight rural roads, because my peripheral vision isn't good, I'm not able to run, and it isn't worth the risk to me.
That being said, I've nearly been hit IN the crosswalk more times than I can count, so maybe my perception of the risks involved isn't that accurate.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:52 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
That being said, I've nearly been hit IN the crosswalk more times than I can count, so maybe my perception of the risks involved isn't that accurate.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:52 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I had a similar experience in Culver City. My wife and I were spending a lot of time in LA for work and we’re from Minnesota where jaywalking is a way of life. Got yelled at for walking by a bunch of people over a two lane road. Later found out a co-worker had actually gotten a ticket. We had no idea. Probably why drivers would freak out when I would walk across the middle of Ventura.
Also, driving in LA is great. People actually know how to zipper-merge, it’s amazing. I remember leaving the airport and the driver just pulled in to traffic and people made room, they made room!!! Mind blowing.
posted by misterpatrick at 1:53 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, driving in LA is great. People actually know how to zipper-merge, it’s amazing. I remember leaving the airport and the driver just pulled in to traffic and people made room, they made room!!! Mind blowing.
posted by misterpatrick at 1:53 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
In Utah, the messaging is heavy on “pedestrians must never ever do anything wrong, lest they inconvenience motorists.” I don’t know if I know anyone who’s been ticketed for jaywalking, but there’s a cultural attitude that death is an acceptable punishment for doing so.
SLCPD posted a cheery, Abbey-Road inspired photo on Facebook to remind pedestrians to “be smart” the day after a local woman was killed by an impaired driver. (She was actually on the sidewalk at the time, but I digress.)
I think the mentality is more pervasive the more car-dependent an area is.
I agree that this law won’t do much good for people stuck choosing between darting across a mega-stroad vs. going a mile out of their way to use an also-dangerous crosswalk, because drivers won’t acknowledge walkers any more than the infrastructure itself does. Still, maybe if the laws stop centering motorist convenience over human life, eventually roadway design will follow?
A girl can dream.
posted by armeowda at 1:55 PM on December 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
SLCPD posted a cheery, Abbey-Road inspired photo on Facebook to remind pedestrians to “be smart” the day after a local woman was killed by an impaired driver. (She was actually on the sidewalk at the time, but I digress.)
I think the mentality is more pervasive the more car-dependent an area is.
I agree that this law won’t do much good for people stuck choosing between darting across a mega-stroad vs. going a mile out of their way to use an also-dangerous crosswalk, because drivers won’t acknowledge walkers any more than the infrastructure itself does. Still, maybe if the laws stop centering motorist convenience over human life, eventually roadway design will follow?
A girl can dream.
posted by armeowda at 1:55 PM on December 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
I've seen a cop standing on a street corner in downtown Los Angeles, hand on his ticketbook like a gun in a holster, just waiting for a couple of men in suits to step foot off the curb before the light changed. Much to his chagrin, they didn't do it.
I worked downtown for a company that was headquartered on the east coast, and by golly, we basically had a welcome pack for visitors from the home office warning about jaywalking tickets. You could always tell when a New Yorker visited LA.
I had always heard that "jay" was slang for a country bumpkin, to shame city-dwellers to not act like hicks.
posted by hwyengr at 1:57 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
I worked downtown for a company that was headquartered on the east coast, and by golly, we basically had a welcome pack for visitors from the home office warning about jaywalking tickets. You could always tell when a New Yorker visited LA.
I had always heard that "jay" was slang for a country bumpkin, to shame city-dwellers to not act like hicks.
posted by hwyengr at 1:57 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
having lived in both Boston and LA - I can confirm that it's a wild change in attitude. (and at least until recent changes with driving and phones - LA drivers didn't seem like they were trying to actively run you over like they did in Boston)
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:08 PM on December 13, 2022
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:08 PM on December 13, 2022
I agree that this law won’t do much good for people stuck choosing between darting across a mega-stroad vs. going a mile out of their way to use an also-dangerous crosswalk, because drivers won’t acknowledge walkers any more than the infrastructure itself does. Still, maybe if the laws stop centering motorist convenience over human life, eventually roadway design will follow?
In my experience in SoCal, crosswalks and pedestrians crossing with the light are generally respected by motorists. A lot of places, the walk light goes before the traffic one does, so pedestrians get a head start and are already pretty visible in the middle of the intersection before a car even gets to start moving. I'm not sure how common that is.
posted by LionIndex at 2:22 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
In my experience in SoCal, crosswalks and pedestrians crossing with the light are generally respected by motorists. A lot of places, the walk light goes before the traffic one does, so pedestrians get a head start and are already pretty visible in the middle of the intersection before a car even gets to start moving. I'm not sure how common that is.
posted by LionIndex at 2:22 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Bostonian here. Yes, you not only can cross the street whenever you want, but it's sort of assumed that the pedestrian has the right of way, regardless of how inconvenient it is for the driver. When I first went to Manhattan as a teen and started to wander across the street, my sister grabbed me and pulled me back and said "they don't stop for you here!"
posted by Melismata at 2:27 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:27 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
have had Seattle cops pull massive attitude on me wrt jaywalking. back in the early oughts I crossed Market Street in Ballard (it's a regional thoroughfare) at 12AM with absolutely no traffic except for an cop idling down the block. He screamed at us and then escorted my party at a walking pace in his fucking cruiser down to a crosslight where my party could cross.
Another time, got braced by a pair of bike cops, one on either side, who talked gaily back and forth about how they could ticket my ass to oblivion as I was hurrying to work one morning. Didn't ever ask me to stop, so I kept walking. I dunno what they wanted from me but eventually they went away with no ticket. Seemed like they were baiting me to do something worthy of escalation?
back home in Canada I had friends who, for a number of reasons, wanted nothing to do with law enforcement. Learned quickly never to jaywalk with them. Was my first introduction to the idea that different communities have different vulnerabilities to predatory law enforcement.
posted by Sauce Trough at 2:27 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Another time, got braced by a pair of bike cops, one on either side, who talked gaily back and forth about how they could ticket my ass to oblivion as I was hurrying to work one morning. Didn't ever ask me to stop, so I kept walking. I dunno what they wanted from me but eventually they went away with no ticket. Seemed like they were baiting me to do something worthy of escalation?
back home in Canada I had friends who, for a number of reasons, wanted nothing to do with law enforcement. Learned quickly never to jaywalk with them. Was my first introduction to the idea that different communities have different vulnerabilities to predatory law enforcement.
posted by Sauce Trough at 2:27 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Until the Central Artery Project moved the interstate underground, every pedestrian visiting Boston's historic North End neighborhood had to cross the got-damn Interstate as it exited a tunnel uphill -- and many locals eschewed the stoplight, choosing to dash across the highway.
I liked to bring out-of-town guests up there and make them run for their pasta.
posted by wenestvedt at 2:31 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I liked to bring out-of-town guests up there and make them run for their pasta.
posted by wenestvedt at 2:31 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
When I was in grad school in Boston, we went on a field trip to New Brunswick, Canada. Field work involved sauntering about Moncton and St.John making observations and taking discrete notes. If we came anywhere close to the curb while facing the roadway, cars would screech to a halt to let us cross. Out of politeness we'd cross but it was disconcerting until we figured out that jay-walking was almost obligatory. This is 40 years ago; perhaps someone really from the Atlantic Provinces could explain, confirm, deny. Embrace the change, California.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
One thing Boston and surrounding communities used to be very good about was having a dedicated all-red walk signal. I was pretty shocked visiting Pittsburgh over a decade ago where I had pressed the walk button and waited for the walk signal and still almost got hit by someone making a right-hand turn on a green (!) light. At the time I thought that was stupidly messed up because what's the point of even having a walk signal if you're just going to let cars legally through the intersection anyway. But since then in the name of increasing efficiency, lots of intersections here have been converted so it's legal to turn right on a green light while the walk signal is lit for a cross-street.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Massachusetts used to also have a red-and-yellow traffic signal which meant no cars could enter the intersection AT ALL to allow pedestrians to cross diagonally. Sadly, I think all of the remaining intersections with that configuration have been replaced within the past five years.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:39 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:39 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
It doesn’t change the fact that cops do and have always used these laws to hassle Black people and whoever else they want, but I can’t find any support for a racist element to the terms jay or jaywalk. Even the linked article above says the same thing as Wikipedia, which that it was a Kansas term for a country bumpkin who wasn’t used to the city.
I am in the South and I jaywalk all the time. The only time I ever got stopped was in Vienna, Austria , where they demanded my passport which was back in my hotel room.
I think this new CA law is a great start. The correct rule is really a social one, which is be sensible and don’t deliberately cause a hassle for cars/pedestrians if you are a pedestrian/car. Like don’t walk to a faraway corner with a bunch of packages , but don’t just sort of amble across the street or dart out expecting cars to slam on brakes. If a pedestrian is doing their best but is slow due to age or ability, y’know, be nice. You’ll still get there eventually.
posted by caviar2d2 at 2:54 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am in the South and I jaywalk all the time. The only time I ever got stopped was in Vienna, Austria , where they demanded my passport which was back in my hotel room.
I think this new CA law is a great start. The correct rule is really a social one, which is be sensible and don’t deliberately cause a hassle for cars/pedestrians if you are a pedestrian/car. Like don’t walk to a faraway corner with a bunch of packages , but don’t just sort of amble across the street or dart out expecting cars to slam on brakes. If a pedestrian is doing their best but is slow due to age or ability, y’know, be nice. You’ll still get there eventually.
posted by caviar2d2 at 2:54 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I jay walk a ton and have been doing so for ages. The only time I've ever been stopped for it was in like 2000, when I was in LA with a friend, and the cop asked for our IDs, saw that we were from Minnesota, and so was he, so instead of writing us a ticket he advised us to move our cars, as the strip mall we had parked in totally tows. The joke's on him though - I had already moved to San Francisco and just hadn't gotten an updated license since I'd gotten rid of my car in the move.
posted by aubilenon at 2:58 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 2:58 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
There's some local talk about banning all right turns on red which honestly would be a plus both for pedestrians and drivers. As a pedestrian, it's absurd that the "walk" symbol still allows drivers to zoom right across your path. And as a driver, if you're in a normal-sized car and the vehicle to your left is an SUV or truck, you can't see anything in the intersection without basically blocking the crosswalk.
posted by meowzilla at 3:05 PM on December 13, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 3:05 PM on December 13, 2022 [22 favorites]
One of the wildest parts of working in LA for a weeklong business trip was how many times I was warned to not jaywalk, and I'm from the Bay Area!
posted by yueliang at 3:21 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 3:21 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I got yelled at in Calgary for jaywalking once. I didn't even know it was a thing. We looked down the street both ways, basically nothing in sight but the horizon, so we walked across. A local woman screamed at as "What the hell is WRONG with you people? Don't you know that's ILLEGAL?"
On my second visit to Calgary I was waiting at a crossing with a small crowd of people. It was a snowy day with not much traffic so when the lone car on the road passed us I just crossed the road without waiting for the signal, the same as I would in the UK. Another man stepped out onto the road exactly the same time as I did (another foreigner probably) and then the entire crowd just followed us. I overheard two women behind me talking (in slightly hushed tones) as we crossed.
"Why are we crossing?"
"I don't know, everyone else is."
So I was an unknowing agent of mass lawbreaking in Canada. I probably didn't know what jaywalking was then and, with all the jet-lag, I wouldn't have remembered anyway.
posted by antiwiggle at 3:22 PM on December 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
On my second visit to Calgary I was waiting at a crossing with a small crowd of people. It was a snowy day with not much traffic so when the lone car on the road passed us I just crossed the road without waiting for the signal, the same as I would in the UK. Another man stepped out onto the road exactly the same time as I did (another foreigner probably) and then the entire crowd just followed us. I overheard two women behind me talking (in slightly hushed tones) as we crossed.
"Why are we crossing?"
"I don't know, everyone else is."
So I was an unknowing agent of mass lawbreaking in Canada. I probably didn't know what jaywalking was then and, with all the jet-lag, I wouldn't have remembered anyway.
posted by antiwiggle at 3:22 PM on December 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
I usually scream "They can't kill/ticket us all!!!" when that happens.
posted by meowzilla at 3:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 3:34 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Don’t know if it’s still like this in Boston/Cambridge, but I recall that it used to be that when a critical mass of pedestrians had accumulated on a corner, they crossed, regardless of where in the cycle the traffic and crossing lights were. I like that method. But both the pedestrians and the drivers are more aggressive in Boston than many other places. In Canada, yes drivers will stop for you, but also most pedestrians will wait patiently at an intersection for the crossing light, even if there are no cars in sight. (Even in Montreal, last I was there!)
posted by eviemath at 3:36 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 3:36 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is 40 years ago; perhaps someone really from the Atlantic Provinces could explain, confirm, deny.
This is a weird thing in Canada that is quite local. In some places, cars will stop for you if you so much as glance at the road, in others they will ignore you entirely. Multiple lanes of traffic will stop for you in Edmonton if you even turn slightly towards the road while walking down the sidewalk, whereas in Montreal, they will ignore you. Everyone crosses the street wherever they please in Montreal, but you do have to be careful (I was almost hit once while crossing mid-block because I failed to note the car going rapidly in reverse the wrong way down a one-way street — Montreal drivers have a strong belief that one-way applies to the orientation of the vehicle rather than the direction of travel).
posted by ssg at 3:42 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is a weird thing in Canada that is quite local. In some places, cars will stop for you if you so much as glance at the road, in others they will ignore you entirely. Multiple lanes of traffic will stop for you in Edmonton if you even turn slightly towards the road while walking down the sidewalk, whereas in Montreal, they will ignore you. Everyone crosses the street wherever they please in Montreal, but you do have to be careful (I was almost hit once while crossing mid-block because I failed to note the car going rapidly in reverse the wrong way down a one-way street — Montreal drivers have a strong belief that one-way applies to the orientation of the vehicle rather than the direction of travel).
posted by ssg at 3:42 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
A cop yelled at me for jaywalking on Mackinac Island. There are no cars on Mackinac Island.
posted by erpava at 3:48 PM on December 13, 2022 [37 favorites]
posted by erpava at 3:48 PM on December 13, 2022 [37 favorites]
As a Brit, you're all flipping weird for having jaywalking as a thing, and I am very glad this makes you less weird.
posted by edd at 3:58 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by edd at 3:58 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
We once got let off with a warning by a cop in Athens, GA for crossing in the crosswalk against a green light because there were absolutely no cars in sight. If you've ever been to Athens, you know how laughable this is as on any given evening, drunk frat boys stumble across the street mid-block without looking to get from Gator Haters to General Beauregard's. (Those who have not been to Athens, please note: This is not fiction. Those are the real names of the bars. Nobody can effectively satirize UGA frat bars. They're worse than whatever you can come up with).
In 2020, that same street that we got a warning for crossing was closed and made into a temporary pedestrian mall and outdoor seating area. This year, it was announced the temporary is now permanent. I hope that cop has something else to keep him busy now.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:05 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
In 2020, that same street that we got a warning for crossing was closed and made into a temporary pedestrian mall and outdoor seating area. This year, it was announced the temporary is now permanent. I hope that cop has something else to keep him busy now.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:05 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I am very very sure that CA BIPOC get ticketed more often for jaywalking, but white people definitely get ticketed all the time too. It's a fun revenue raiser and as a born and bred but no longer Californian, I still never jaywalk because it was (metaphorically) beaten into me as a no-no on the level of actual crime with actual victims.
posted by atomicstone at 4:23 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by atomicstone at 4:23 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I jaywalk all the time in my part of Los Angeles and never had a problem. Probably because I look like a middle class white guy. Definitely almost got hit a few times walking in a crosswalk (including earlier this week). It's funny that a couple people mentioned Culver City because cops there definitely have a reputation of going nuts over even the tiniest infraction. I'm right next door in Venice and it's like night and day. I guess beach cops are a little more chill than others. Glad to see the law finally changing though.
posted by downtohisturtles at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2022
posted by downtohisturtles at 4:24 PM on December 13, 2022
I'm actually amazed by how many people apparently didn't know that it's illegal. I'm not saying I think it should be illegal, but everywhere I've lived in the US, it's seemed like a thing that "everyone knows." It boggles my mind to think it's legal, rather than (much like speeding) it's a law that everyone just ignores.
Metafilter is always teaching me new things.
posted by primethyme at 4:26 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Metafilter is always teaching me new things.
posted by primethyme at 4:26 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Jaywalking is legal in Canada, you just have to yield to cars if you are not in a designated crosswalk:
In Canada, Jaywalking is legal until a pedestrian walking outside of designated pedestrian areas interfere with traffic. This means that as a pedestrian who is crossing without a crosswalk, you must yield to motorists on the road. When on a sidewalk, crosswalk, or bike lane, cars yield to you, but if you choose to walk with no markings, you must only do so when your path is clear.
posted by fimbulvetr at 4:37 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
In Canada, Jaywalking is legal until a pedestrian walking outside of designated pedestrian areas interfere with traffic. This means that as a pedestrian who is crossing without a crosswalk, you must yield to motorists on the road. When on a sidewalk, crosswalk, or bike lane, cars yield to you, but if you choose to walk with no markings, you must only do so when your path is clear.
posted by fimbulvetr at 4:37 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Interestingly, I have never lived in a state where it is flatly illegal to cross mid-block. Most states I've seen define jaywalking as crossing against a traffic control device or not using a crosswalk within a given distance of the place you actually crossed.
Here in Florida, it's pretty hard to actually commit the infraction of jaywalking. It's a heck of a lot easier to commit the even more rarely enforced failure to yield to a pedestrian violation since there's an implied crosswalk at every intersection and it's legal for a pedestrian to cross anywhere that is farther than 150 feet from a traffic signal, so long as the pedestrian yields to passing traffic if they aren't crossing at a crosswalk, whether marked or not.
Problem is, most drivers refuse to yield even when pedestrians do use crosswalks, even when they are marked. I can't count the number of times I hear drivers complaining about jaywalking when there isn't actually any jaywalking going on. They literally don't realize that there is a crosswalk at every intersection, much less that they are required to yield to pedestrians crossing at said crosswalk.
It's also not uncommon to hear people say, sometimes explicitly, that they believe it's legal to hit a pedestrian who is crossing mid-block. No, friend, you are required to stop for any obstruction in the road. Moreover, you are required to drive at a speed and with the care necessary to avoid any obstruction in the road, whether that's a couch, an animal, or a human being.
That's how the law is written in most states. Sadly, that is far from how the law is actually enforced. Cops will totally write bullshit tickets to pedestrians if they feel like it and drivers almost never face consequences for crashing their car into something or someone unless they're drunk at the time.
posted by wierdo at 4:56 PM on December 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
Here in Florida, it's pretty hard to actually commit the infraction of jaywalking. It's a heck of a lot easier to commit the even more rarely enforced failure to yield to a pedestrian violation since there's an implied crosswalk at every intersection and it's legal for a pedestrian to cross anywhere that is farther than 150 feet from a traffic signal, so long as the pedestrian yields to passing traffic if they aren't crossing at a crosswalk, whether marked or not.
Problem is, most drivers refuse to yield even when pedestrians do use crosswalks, even when they are marked. I can't count the number of times I hear drivers complaining about jaywalking when there isn't actually any jaywalking going on. They literally don't realize that there is a crosswalk at every intersection, much less that they are required to yield to pedestrians crossing at said crosswalk.
It's also not uncommon to hear people say, sometimes explicitly, that they believe it's legal to hit a pedestrian who is crossing mid-block. No, friend, you are required to stop for any obstruction in the road. Moreover, you are required to drive at a speed and with the care necessary to avoid any obstruction in the road, whether that's a couch, an animal, or a human being.
That's how the law is written in most states. Sadly, that is far from how the law is actually enforced. Cops will totally write bullshit tickets to pedestrians if they feel like it and drivers almost never face consequences for crashing their car into something or someone unless they're drunk at the time.
posted by wierdo at 4:56 PM on December 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
I am an aggressive pedestrian and don’t believe in the concept of jaywalking and never have.
The number of cars I’ve hit in my life is not zero. There’s nothing that makes a driver madder than a person slamming their hand on their car and calmly walking away.
posted by rhymedirective at 5:18 PM on December 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
The number of cars I’ve hit in my life is not zero. There’s nothing that makes a driver madder than a person slamming their hand on their car and calmly walking away.
posted by rhymedirective at 5:18 PM on December 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
I am a road-crossing anal retentive. I cannot jaywalk for the life of me. I’ve been known to be the only one of a group of friends to wait behind at the crosswalk while the rest of our group jaywalks — not a car in sight - them laughing, and me then catching up to them when they’re a half a block away after the light turns green. It’s a mental block I’ve never been able to shake.
I can’t think about jaywalking without recalling this instance of over-the-top enforcement from Atlanta in 2007, in which a visiting Oxford don was tackled to the ground and thrown into the clink because he jaywalked.
I also think about riding in a taxi in Cairo, in which myriad people would just dash suddenly across four lanes of fast traffic, narrowly getting hit. Which I guess defines the other end of the spectrum from the Atlanta incident.
posted by darkstar at 5:26 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can’t think about jaywalking without recalling this instance of over-the-top enforcement from Atlanta in 2007, in which a visiting Oxford don was tackled to the ground and thrown into the clink because he jaywalked.
I also think about riding in a taxi in Cairo, in which myriad people would just dash suddenly across four lanes of fast traffic, narrowly getting hit. Which I guess defines the other end of the spectrum from the Atlanta incident.
posted by darkstar at 5:26 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Im from a place in louisana where sidewalks aren't even consistent much less actual crosswalks, so anywhere one needed to go via feet was an interesting street/ditch/median/levee adventure.
Lived in LA for little bit. Had to do a social work in service that discussed specifically how jaywalking ticket infractions could keep people out of subsidized housing back in 2010.
People were very adamant about not doing it. Even though I wasn't there for long I still feel a tinge of rebellion when crossing the street haphazardly.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:28 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Lived in LA for little bit. Had to do a social work in service that discussed specifically how jaywalking ticket infractions could keep people out of subsidized housing back in 2010.
People were very adamant about not doing it. Even though I wasn't there for long I still feel a tinge of rebellion when crossing the street haphazardly.
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:28 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I got yelled at in Calgary for jaywalking once. I didn't even know it was a thing. We looked down the street both ways, basically nothing in sight but the horizon, so we walked across. A local woman screamed at as "What the hell is WRONG with you people? Don't you know that's ILLEGAL?"
While jaywalking is not illegal in Alberta, at least not on a provincial level (though you do have to yield to vehicle traffic) there is unfortunately a by-law prohibiting it in Calgary (and Edmonton, where I live). So it would be kind of reasonable to not know? You can jaywalk all across the province except for the municipalities that have passed their own ordinances, and who amongst us is enough of a nerd to look up local bylaws for other towns? *coughs nervously* not me, that's for sure.
posted by selenized at 5:28 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
While jaywalking is not illegal in Alberta, at least not on a provincial level (though you do have to yield to vehicle traffic) there is unfortunately a by-law prohibiting it in Calgary (and Edmonton, where I live). So it would be kind of reasonable to not know? You can jaywalk all across the province except for the municipalities that have passed their own ordinances, and who amongst us is enough of a nerd to look up local bylaws for other towns? *coughs nervously* not me, that's for sure.
posted by selenized at 5:28 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
There was that time my high school friend convinced me to jaywalk across an iced-over Niagara Falls Boulevard in the middle of a Buffalo winter, and I fell flat on my ass halfway across. She helped me up and we managed to scramble to the other side to an accompaniment of angry honks. When we got across, she turned to me and said, "I saw your whole life flash in front of my eyes!"
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:33 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:33 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Count me as another person who didn't know this was something people actually got tickets for (I've never been to the west coast) - I grew up in Baltimore, and everyone would jaywalk all the time, all over the city. One of those things that's technically illegal but not the priority of the cops. Personally, I think the same should be true for cyclists, provided that they come to a complete stop at the intersection before proceeding.
My jaywalking story of feeling like an alien was on a visit to Montreal several years ago - it was a fairly quiet street, no cars anywhere, so of course I jaywalked, and the people on the other end of the street looked at me with a confused expression, turned their head toward the light to confirm what they were seeing, and then scowled at me.
posted by coffeecat at 5:44 PM on December 13, 2022
My jaywalking story of feeling like an alien was on a visit to Montreal several years ago - it was a fairly quiet street, no cars anywhere, so of course I jaywalked, and the people on the other end of the street looked at me with a confused expression, turned their head toward the light to confirm what they were seeing, and then scowled at me.
posted by coffeecat at 5:44 PM on December 13, 2022
I've lived in places where jaywalking is illegal and never had an issue, but on my one trip to Houston I jaywalked and didn't notice a cop parked right there. He was pretty unhappy about it and started in with the "I could ticket you" talk, but then flipped his lid, like red face and spitting while he yelled, when he realized I wasn't local. He was genuinely furious that someone would come to his city and disrespect it that way. He was so over the top that after he left random passersby were apologizing on his behalf. I'm not sure why he didn't give me a ticket; he might have just been too upset to actually write it out.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:14 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:14 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Next let's get rid of "beg buttons!"
posted by brookeb at 6:18 PM on December 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by brookeb at 6:18 PM on December 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
So, uh, this pervasive notion, that Boston has an ingrained culture of safety for pedestrians? Maybe that was (sort of) true five years ago, but post-Covid? Good luck, friend. I'm upgrading to steel-toed boots, because I don't want to break a toe the next time I have to issue a gentle correction to the driver's side door of some asshole blowing through the crosswalk at 20 over the limit.
Last week, I had to physically grab my 5-year-old son and yank him out of the way of an oncoming car in the far lane. In a marked crosswalk. Directly in front of his elementary school. At 3:30 on a weekday. Nary a brake light in sight.
So, sure, let's legalize jaywalking. While we're at it, maybe we could spare a glance toward enforcing any of the myriad regulations intended to separate pedestrians from 4000 pound bludgeoning weapons piloted by meth-addled simpletons glued to Candy Crush.
posted by Mayor West at 6:44 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Last week, I had to physically grab my 5-year-old son and yank him out of the way of an oncoming car in the far lane. In a marked crosswalk. Directly in front of his elementary school. At 3:30 on a weekday. Nary a brake light in sight.
So, sure, let's legalize jaywalking. While we're at it, maybe we could spare a glance toward enforcing any of the myriad regulations intended to separate pedestrians from 4000 pound bludgeoning weapons piloted by meth-addled simpletons glued to Candy Crush.
posted by Mayor West at 6:44 PM on December 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Really surprised that coffeecat was looked at oddly for jaywalking in Montreal. That's never happened to me, and I grew up there and (till covid) was there several times a year. I'd been nodding along with ssg's "Everyone crosses the street wherever they please in Montreal, but you do have to be careful."
I currently live in a neighborhood where twice a day, family convoys often including strollers and multiple dogs take over entire thoroughfares accompanying their school-aged kids to or from the local elementary: some on foot, some on bikes. This is California but even so, the people driving cars somehow manage to cope.
posted by tangerine at 6:56 PM on December 13, 2022
I currently live in a neighborhood where twice a day, family convoys often including strollers and multiple dogs take over entire thoroughfares accompanying their school-aged kids to or from the local elementary: some on foot, some on bikes. This is California but even so, the people driving cars somehow manage to cope.
posted by tangerine at 6:56 PM on December 13, 2022
I've never lived anywhere that didn't outlaw jaywalking. I did have the pleasure of visiting Boston once and was amazed by the respect shown for pedestrians. Obviously, society goes onward without jaywalking laws, but I see this as a physics problem. In the U.S., the average automobile weighs about 4,100 pounds. When that much metal and plastic on the move strike a human body, the metal will win. It's possible that this is one of those "this is water" things for me, but physical safety dictates to me that cars have the right of way, especially with the number of distracted and angry drivers on the streets. People aren't even safe on the sidewalks or in parades.
posted by bryon at 7:09 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bryon at 7:09 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I get that it's dangerous, but the only way to make it safe is to demand space for your body
posted by wotsac at 7:29 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by wotsac at 7:29 PM on December 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
This may be due to East Coast vs. West coast attitudes; but I don't remember any indoctrination about how jwalking was SO ILLEGAL, GASP! It was more like 'watch it kid, that's how you get run over!'
But there was a childhood PSA/slogan that stuck, along with 'Stop, Drop, and Roll' (if your clothes are on fire) and 'Say NO, then GO, then TELL' (if an adult is being creepy):
the doesn't quite scan in every language - 'Cross at the Green, Not in Between'
posted by bartleby at 7:36 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
But there was a childhood PSA/slogan that stuck, along with 'Stop, Drop, and Roll' (if your clothes are on fire) and 'Say NO, then GO, then TELL' (if an adult is being creepy):
the doesn't quite scan in every language - 'Cross at the Green, Not in Between'
posted by bartleby at 7:36 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
it doesn’t change the fact that cops do and have always used these laws to hassle Black people and whoever else they want
--caviar2d2
The worst story I've heard is the woman who jaywalked with her kids at a bus stop where most people jaywalk rather than walking a long distance to an intersection. A drunk driver ran into her kids. Her 4yr old son died. Despite the driver admitting he had been drinking, they charged the woman with second degree homicide and and she was threatened with 3 years in jail.
Probably because of the national press attention, charges were dropped three years later (except for a $200 fine for the actual jaywalking).
posted by eye of newt at 7:48 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
--caviar2d2
The worst story I've heard is the woman who jaywalked with her kids at a bus stop where most people jaywalk rather than walking a long distance to an intersection. A drunk driver ran into her kids. Her 4yr old son died. Despite the driver admitting he had been drinking, they charged the woman with second degree homicide and and she was threatened with 3 years in jail.
Probably because of the national press attention, charges were dropped three years later (except for a $200 fine for the actual jaywalking).
posted by eye of newt at 7:48 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I got yelled at in Calgary for jaywalking once.
In the late 80’s I was a college student in Calgary. A couple of friends and I went out to the bars on “Electric Avenue” (is it still called that? I haven’t been back since I graduated ). We were walking from bar to bar, so probably fairly drunk (we had ridden our bikes there on the trail along the Bow River, so no car). We were jaywalking on Electric Avenue when a cop pulls up with his lights on and demands our IDs. I handed over my American drivers license, which was expired, and he rejected it. My two friends were Canadian and had valid IDs, and the cop started writing up their tickets, I got a pass. The one friend asked him why he was getting a ticket, and the cop didn’t like that I guess and he handcuffed him and took him down to the station and put him in the jail. We got a cab down there and asked them when he was getting out. They said in the morning, so we waited down there all night until morning when they let him out, then we had to go find our bikes.
posted by waving at 7:54 PM on December 13, 2022
In the late 80’s I was a college student in Calgary. A couple of friends and I went out to the bars on “Electric Avenue” (is it still called that? I haven’t been back since I graduated ). We were walking from bar to bar, so probably fairly drunk (we had ridden our bikes there on the trail along the Bow River, so no car). We were jaywalking on Electric Avenue when a cop pulls up with his lights on and demands our IDs. I handed over my American drivers license, which was expired, and he rejected it. My two friends were Canadian and had valid IDs, and the cop started writing up their tickets, I got a pass. The one friend asked him why he was getting a ticket, and the cop didn’t like that I guess and he handcuffed him and took him down to the station and put him in the jail. We got a cab down there and asked them when he was getting out. They said in the morning, so we waited down there all night until morning when they let him out, then we had to go find our bikes.
posted by waving at 7:54 PM on December 13, 2022
I'll cross any road or set of roads if it appears safe to do so, but I do often find myself quite annoyed to see someone crossing a busy street a half block from a, theoretically, safer controlled crossing.
That said, the only times I have ever been hit by a car were when crossing at a crosswalk with lights and everything. Bad drivers are going to drive badly no matter what. Maybe there is something to be said for not putting any stock in in lines or lights and instead relying entirely on your own judgement.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 8:01 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
That said, the only times I have ever been hit by a car were when crossing at a crosswalk with lights and everything. Bad drivers are going to drive badly no matter what. Maybe there is something to be said for not putting any stock in in lines or lights and instead relying entirely on your own judgement.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 8:01 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I haven't read through the entire thread and have just woken up so maybe I'm missing something.
What's the logic of fining someone for Jay walking? That the threat of being fined is a more effective deterrent than the threat of being killed by a car?
Or is it punishment for inconveniencing drivers?
In South Africa, cars rule all and pedestrians are the lowest in the hierarchy. But at least we get to choose for ourselves when and where it's safest to cross a street.
posted by Zumbador at 8:36 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
What's the logic of fining someone for Jay walking? That the threat of being fined is a more effective deterrent than the threat of being killed by a car?
Or is it punishment for inconveniencing drivers?
In South Africa, cars rule all and pedestrians are the lowest in the hierarchy. But at least we get to choose for ourselves when and where it's safest to cross a street.
posted by Zumbador at 8:36 PM on December 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm in Philly. I have never heard of anyone getting ticketed for jaywalking. We jaywalk ALL THE TIME. Against the light, across the road, in the middle of the road, in between cars stopped at a light, whatever. It's safer. I once was crossing with the light in Center City Philadelphia when someone nearly turned into me and yelled out his window, "I have insurance!" as if his insurance made him not liable for vehicular homicide.
At the moment, everyone in my neighborhood is driving the wrong way up a one way street because they've blocked off a couple of main streets, so in addition to the jaywalking we've also got cars driving directly at one another then stopping and honking at each other. Plus the neighbor who likes to park across the sidewalk so pedestrians can't get by. Of course, other people park on the sidewalk all the time, but mostly they leave a little room.
posted by Peach at 8:54 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
At the moment, everyone in my neighborhood is driving the wrong way up a one way street because they've blocked off a couple of main streets, so in addition to the jaywalking we've also got cars driving directly at one another then stopping and honking at each other. Plus the neighbor who likes to park across the sidewalk so pedestrians can't get by. Of course, other people park on the sidewalk all the time, but mostly they leave a little room.
posted by Peach at 8:54 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Zumbador: Or is it punishment for inconveniencing drivers?
That is exactly correct. Or, even more to the point, inconveniencing capital.
posted by ursus_comiter at 9:02 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
That is exactly correct. Or, even more to the point, inconveniencing capital.
posted by ursus_comiter at 9:02 PM on December 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Three friends and I got yelled at by a cop post-clubbing in downtown late 80s Vancouver on a completely vehicle- deserted street (we were pretty sober, as we had danced it all off). It didn’t help that when he asked for ID, it showed that all of us were born in Oct and three of us were born in the same year (that’s what happens with college cohorts). But no tickets ensued, I think he was just bored. Two of us were from Toronto, two of us were BC locals from the Island. We are all still close friends.
posted by mollymillions at 9:31 PM on December 13, 2022
posted by mollymillions at 9:31 PM on December 13, 2022
Maybe fifteen years ago, Toronto police had a big crackdown on jaywalkers after there were, if my memory serves me well, seven pedestrians killed by drivers in a month. The fact that five of the seven deaths were people crossing at the intersection and with a walk signal* was considered irrelevant. I mean, what was the option? To enforce traffic laws? That is what we call the War On The Car!
*The old “turn right while looking left” maneuver so beloved of drivers who realize other people don’t matter.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:46 PM on December 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
*The old “turn right while looking left” maneuver so beloved of drivers who realize other people don’t matter.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:46 PM on December 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
Once upon a time during the second Bush admin, Mrs. Sauce and I posed as prospective students and toured Bob Jones U, just to see if we could spot any paintings retouched to conceal Jesus' wang and also to ask if our mildly different ethnic backgrounds would cause any friction there.
We saw lots of fucked up alien shit (the dating theater w/laser chaperones was really something) but our tour guide explicitly reminded us several times on our walking tour that cars had primacy on the BJU campus just as Jesus intended and we would have no recourse if we were hit by one.
posted by Sauce Trough at 10:47 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
We saw lots of fucked up alien shit (the dating theater w/laser chaperones was really something) but our tour guide explicitly reminded us several times on our walking tour that cars had primacy on the BJU campus just as Jesus intended and we would have no recourse if we were hit by one.
posted by Sauce Trough at 10:47 PM on December 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cars are the problem, not people walking. Why Amsterdam is Removing 10,000 Parking Spaces
posted by DreamerFi at 5:03 AM on December 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by DreamerFi at 5:03 AM on December 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Years ago I attended a training program that included a day at Xerox PARC in Palo Alto. My hotel wasn't far away in Menlo Park so I decided that since it was a beautiful day that I'd walk back instead of sharing a cab. I was dressed in regular business clothes. I mention this because as I walked down the long, deserted sidewalks people in cars stared at me like I was an alien creature. Had I not been dressed like that I have long believed I would have been stopped by the police. I find it hard to believe even laws will change how Californians feel about cars.
posted by tommasz at 5:41 AM on December 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 5:41 AM on December 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The number of cars I’ve hit in my life is not zero. There’s nothing that makes a driver madder than a person slamming their hand on their car and calmly walking away.
I believe there was an elderly man in Boston who did this after almost being run down by a car ignoring both the crosswalk and a stop sign. The car was being driven by an off-duty police officer who (of course) interpreted it as a threat, jumped out of the car, and knocked the poor guy he almost ran over to the ground, and arrested him.
I'm trying to find the post on Universal Hub, but I don't recall the officer suffering any consequences.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:51 AM on December 14, 2022
I believe there was an elderly man in Boston who did this after almost being run down by a car ignoring both the crosswalk and a stop sign. The car was being driven by an off-duty police officer who (of course) interpreted it as a threat, jumped out of the car, and knocked the poor guy he almost ran over to the ground, and arrested him.
I'm trying to find the post on Universal Hub, but I don't recall the officer suffering any consequences.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:51 AM on December 14, 2022
I'd like to market a paint pistol with a special color for pedestrians to use when cars nearly run them down; the drivers should be shamed by all. And if drivers try to complain, walkers should claim self-defense. When I used to walk to work, I crossed a very busy street, and cars turning right frequently cut me off in the crosswalk. Including a police car. I called the non-emergency line, but, of course, did not have a plate number.
Bus stops where people have to hike to cross the street are hella mean to bus riders. sheesh
posted by theora55 at 6:34 AM on December 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Bus stops where people have to hike to cross the street are hella mean to bus riders. sheesh
posted by theora55 at 6:34 AM on December 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
bryon: I did have the pleasure of visiting Boston once and was amazed by the respect shown for pedestrians.
Having lived & worked & gone to college in Boston, I think it's less "respect," per se, and more "fear of having to go without their car while it's in the shop after running over a pedestrian."
More than once I found a small, timid person on a Boston curb, and stepped into traffic to get assholes to stop. I am 6'1" and not shy, and I would just say, "They won't hit me, it would ruin their car's front end. Let's go!"
posted by wenestvedt at 6:44 AM on December 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Having lived & worked & gone to college in Boston, I think it's less "respect," per se, and more "fear of having to go without their car while it's in the shop after running over a pedestrian."
More than once I found a small, timid person on a Boston curb, and stepped into traffic to get assholes to stop. I am 6'1" and not shy, and I would just say, "They won't hit me, it would ruin their car's front end. Let's go!"
posted by wenestvedt at 6:44 AM on December 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
For a few years I dispatched bike messengers in Back Bay. One of my guys (miss ya, Mike, but less after you spilled all the cyan toner) hit a car with their Kryptonite bike lock after it...turned in front of him and forced him onto the sidewalk at speed, IIRC. Anyway, some too-assholish-even-for-Boston maneuver, and he took out the car's window and then raced away down an alley.
That wasn't the only one of such stories I heard, either. Boston drivers are dicks.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:48 AM on December 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
That wasn't the only one of such stories I heard, either. Boston drivers are dicks.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:48 AM on December 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Boston has a history of aggressive road use by all road users, including pedestrians. I would never call it “a culture of safety.” Deference is often a remnant of simmering threats—drivers willing to run you over, pedestrians ready to key your car, bicyclists armed for smashing windshields.
The Boston area road network has been substantially redesigned to minimize conflicts over the past two decades. However, I expect all long-time residents still have harrowing stories of road rage.
posted by Headfullofair at 7:15 AM on December 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Boston area road network has been substantially redesigned to minimize conflicts over the past two decades. However, I expect all long-time residents still have harrowing stories of road rage.
posted by Headfullofair at 7:15 AM on December 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
theora55: “Bus stops where people have to hike to cross the street are hella mean to bus riders. sheesh”“Urban design often reveals how little we value transit riders,” Darin Givens, Medium, 06 February 2020
“Once again, Atlanta news media fails to question deadly street design amid pedestrian death,” Darin Givens, Thread ATL, 31 August 2020
posted by ob1quixote at 7:15 AM on December 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I jaywalk. I have jaywalked. I will jaywalk.
But goddammit, I do it with some alacrity when a car's coming. Don't just diddy bop across the thoroughfare, shake a tail feather.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:33 AM on December 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
But goddammit, I do it with some alacrity when a car's coming. Don't just diddy bop across the thoroughfare, shake a tail feather.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:33 AM on December 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Obviously, society goes onward without jaywalking laws, but I see this as a physics problem. In the U.S., the average automobile weighs about 4,100 pounds. When that much metal and plastic on the move strike a human body, the metal will win.
You should read the “previously” that details how the “crime” of jaywalking was invented because the motor lobby was terrified that society would solve this physics problem differently.
(For what it’s worth, though, there is a person driving that big hunk of metal and plastic, so it is also a behavior problem. The way you’ve framed this, gun violence would also be primarily a physics problem instead of a social/behavioral problem, because if a speeding metal bullet meets flesh, well, you can expect that the bullet will win. True, but not very informative when the question is about policy.)
posted by en forme de poire at 7:43 AM on December 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
You should read the “previously” that details how the “crime” of jaywalking was invented because the motor lobby was terrified that society would solve this physics problem differently.
(For what it’s worth, though, there is a person driving that big hunk of metal and plastic, so it is also a behavior problem. The way you’ve framed this, gun violence would also be primarily a physics problem instead of a social/behavioral problem, because if a speeding metal bullet meets flesh, well, you can expect that the bullet will win. True, but not very informative when the question is about policy.)
posted by en forme de poire at 7:43 AM on December 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Bus stops where people have to hike to cross the street are hella mean to bus riders. sheesh
I'll never forget this incident of a teenage girl who was killed trying to cross the highway to get to her job at the mall because the mall wouldn't allow the bus to stop there.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:41 AM on December 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'll never forget this incident of a teenage girl who was killed trying to cross the highway to get to her job at the mall because the mall wouldn't allow the bus to stop there.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:41 AM on December 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Here, you may cross a street anywhere anytime as long as you don't interfere with traffic. Few people know that and I cause some furrowed brows. But I am risk averse and don't cross if I wouldn't have time to recover from falling or dropping something, etc.
But there are a lot of dumb people. Just last night I had to brake because a pair of dimwits clad in black crossed a busy street at night, in rain, despite traffic.
posted by neuron at 9:18 AM on December 14, 2022
But there are a lot of dumb people. Just last night I had to brake because a pair of dimwits clad in black crossed a busy street at night, in rain, despite traffic.
posted by neuron at 9:18 AM on December 14, 2022
First trip to Britain, train from airport to Victoria station, and we decide to walk to see this new place. We come to this intersection at Marble Arch, with big wide streets and no traffic control and we need to cross the street. There were two cops on motorcycles across the street. Being Americans we were stumped. Then these three locals came up, looked around and then crossed the street right in front of the cops. Oh! You can jaywalk here! A week later at Speaker’s Corner, this ranting Brit asked me where I was from… California. Americans! He said. Americans, he continued, will come to an intersection, with no cars around for miles, and stand there waiting for the red light to change. Idiots! Let me say that my time in Britain taught me the value of jaywalking. Now I can do it legally.
posted by njohnson23 at 10:28 AM on December 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 10:28 AM on December 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Interestingly, I have never lived in a state where it is flatly illegal to cross mid-block.
In California before this act passed it was illegal to cross between intersections "controlled by traffic control devices" i.e. stop signs and traffic lights. If there is an intersection without stop signs or traffic lights, doesn't matter if the crosswalk is three feet from you, you can jaywalk. You might get stopped or ticketed anyway, because cops here don't seem to read the CVC and are aggressively pro-motorist.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:38 AM on December 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
In California before this act passed it was illegal to cross between intersections "controlled by traffic control devices" i.e. stop signs and traffic lights. If there is an intersection without stop signs or traffic lights, doesn't matter if the crosswalk is three feet from you, you can jaywalk. You might get stopped or ticketed anyway, because cops here don't seem to read the CVC and are aggressively pro-motorist.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:38 AM on December 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Somewhat tangential, but I recently moved from NYC to Portland, OR, and I'm still very much getting used to the different laws/customs of Pedestrians/Cars.
NYC: Sure, you're jaywalking if you don't cross at the crosswalk. I assume. I mean, I've never seen or even heard of anyone in NY getting ticketed for that, though I'm sure unhoused people get harassed for it pretty regularly. But as a general rule, it's "cross wherever it feels safe, whenever you want to." If you're driving, keep an eye out and don't hit any pedestrians wherever they may be, but if they're crossing like an asshole, then you can honk or yell at them because they're in the wrong, and if you're a pedestrian and some car is trying to, like, turn right on red (a big no-no almost anywhere in NYC outside of the Rockaways) while you're crossing, you can flip them off because they're in the wrong, but everyone just keeps about their business and moves along.
PDX: (and this is as far as I can understand it so far, mostly coming from my wife being horrified that I didn't grow up with these understandings drilled into me) Cross at intersections. If you see a pedestrian waiting to cross somewhere where you don't have a stop sign, you should stop anyway to let them cross. If you're making a turn at a signal and there's a pedestrian crossing, you need to wait until they're all the way on the other sidewalk before making your turn. Crossing in the middle of the street happens, but is less common, probably because there's such a ped-right-of-way culture enshrined here. Which is a good thing, just to be clear!
But coming from living in NYC for most of my adult life, where as a driver I would think "OK, pedestrian, I see you and am avoiding hitting you so we're cool" and as a pedestrian just trust that drivers saw me and were going to avoid me, where if there was no protected crossing the idea was just to wait for a break in traffic and get across as fast as I could, etc., it can scare the bejeezus out of my wife when, to take an example from last night, she says "hey wait for that guy to cross" when I'm about to make a turn onto a six-lane thoroughfare, and I say "Yeah I see him" and then wait for him to get out of the lane I'm turning into before I turn. Fair enough! I need to absorb the way it's done here!
And then, of course, bikes throw another wrench into things, and that's a BIG ONE I need to pick up on fast. There are bikers in NY, of course. Lots of them. What there aren't are lots of bike lanes like we have here in PDX. Also, I was a pedestrian 99% of the time in NY, and got hit by errant bikers on multiple occasions, because NYC bike culture is such that they tend to ignore traffic laws a good amount of the time (which doesn't seem to be nearly as much the case in Portland.) As such, bikes in NYC are in a weird sort of almost outlaw-ish grey area. (Which should not be the case, just to be clear!) In PDX, cyclists have much better infrastructure and people share the road with them better and that whole system just is better. But I really need to learn to automatically check my blind-spots for them when turning, etc.
Honestly, that last bit is probably less about NYC and more about my learning to drive primarily in small-town Oklahoma where there weren't a lot of people on bikes to begin with, and certainly zero bike lanes. But it's just wild to think that I got my license at 16, just bought my first new car a few days ago at 42, and feel like I'm just now learning how to be a responsible motorist in the way that I'd like the rest of the world to be. Humbling, really.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:52 AM on December 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
NYC: Sure, you're jaywalking if you don't cross at the crosswalk. I assume. I mean, I've never seen or even heard of anyone in NY getting ticketed for that, though I'm sure unhoused people get harassed for it pretty regularly. But as a general rule, it's "cross wherever it feels safe, whenever you want to." If you're driving, keep an eye out and don't hit any pedestrians wherever they may be, but if they're crossing like an asshole, then you can honk or yell at them because they're in the wrong, and if you're a pedestrian and some car is trying to, like, turn right on red (a big no-no almost anywhere in NYC outside of the Rockaways) while you're crossing, you can flip them off because they're in the wrong, but everyone just keeps about their business and moves along.
PDX: (and this is as far as I can understand it so far, mostly coming from my wife being horrified that I didn't grow up with these understandings drilled into me) Cross at intersections. If you see a pedestrian waiting to cross somewhere where you don't have a stop sign, you should stop anyway to let them cross. If you're making a turn at a signal and there's a pedestrian crossing, you need to wait until they're all the way on the other sidewalk before making your turn. Crossing in the middle of the street happens, but is less common, probably because there's such a ped-right-of-way culture enshrined here. Which is a good thing, just to be clear!
But coming from living in NYC for most of my adult life, where as a driver I would think "OK, pedestrian, I see you and am avoiding hitting you so we're cool" and as a pedestrian just trust that drivers saw me and were going to avoid me, where if there was no protected crossing the idea was just to wait for a break in traffic and get across as fast as I could, etc., it can scare the bejeezus out of my wife when, to take an example from last night, she says "hey wait for that guy to cross" when I'm about to make a turn onto a six-lane thoroughfare, and I say "Yeah I see him" and then wait for him to get out of the lane I'm turning into before I turn. Fair enough! I need to absorb the way it's done here!
And then, of course, bikes throw another wrench into things, and that's a BIG ONE I need to pick up on fast. There are bikers in NY, of course. Lots of them. What there aren't are lots of bike lanes like we have here in PDX. Also, I was a pedestrian 99% of the time in NY, and got hit by errant bikers on multiple occasions, because NYC bike culture is such that they tend to ignore traffic laws a good amount of the time (which doesn't seem to be nearly as much the case in Portland.) As such, bikes in NYC are in a weird sort of almost outlaw-ish grey area. (Which should not be the case, just to be clear!) In PDX, cyclists have much better infrastructure and people share the road with them better and that whole system just is better. But I really need to learn to automatically check my blind-spots for them when turning, etc.
Honestly, that last bit is probably less about NYC and more about my learning to drive primarily in small-town Oklahoma where there weren't a lot of people on bikes to begin with, and certainly zero bike lanes. But it's just wild to think that I got my license at 16, just bought my first new car a few days ago at 42, and feel like I'm just now learning how to be a responsible motorist in the way that I'd like the rest of the world to be. Humbling, really.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:52 AM on December 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Navelgazer, I feel you! I moved from the east coast, where I had vaguely heard of jaywalking but always thought it was some quaint antiquated relic, to Oregon and lo, people take it seriously. Not only that, cars stop for pedestrians here! In the Carolinas it's the pedestrian's job to get out of the way of the cars: good luck, foolish fragile human thing, we hunt you for sport. It's been super hard to adjust, both as a pedestrian and a driver, to this humans have rights thing. When I'm walking and I need to cross the street, jaywalking - which I don't do as much as I used to, the dirty looks have had their effect - or at an intersection, I wait for all the cars to go by. When they stop, it unnerves me and I don't trust them. When I'm driving, I can't tell if these people are just standing near the crosswalk, planning to cross or which way they are going to cross and I get confused. I suspect there are secret west coast signals I'm not picking up on.
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:40 PM on December 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 12:40 PM on December 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
The number of cars I’ve hit in my life is not zero. There’s nothing that makes a driver madder than a person slamming their hand on their car and calmly walking away.
Or, worse, cycling away. Dude sprinted after me for half a block before returning to his car. Luckily I was right by the University of Toronto campus and I altered my course on the spot to pass through there so it’d be less likely he’d pursue me to run me down.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:41 AM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Or, worse, cycling away. Dude sprinted after me for half a block before returning to his car. Luckily I was right by the University of Toronto campus and I altered my course on the spot to pass through there so it’d be less likely he’d pursue me to run me down.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:41 AM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Bus stops where people have to hike to cross the street are hella mean to bus riders. sheesh
Oh, it goes beyond merely mean unless you count criminally charging pedestrians with vehicular manslaughter for the crime of having a child killed by a driver who had been drinking.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:49 AM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, it goes beyond merely mean unless you count criminally charging pedestrians with vehicular manslaughter for the crime of having a child killed by a driver who had been drinking.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:49 AM on December 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
There is a moment in this article about changing attitudes towards immigrants in a Quebec town (that was previously hostile to immigration but now is much more welcoming) that reminded me of this FPP:
Outside a convenience store in Hérouxville, a woman and a man smoking cigarettes said they still supported the code of conduct.
They said that a group of Muslim cyclists was once seen crossing the main road, not at a traffic light, but at a spot where one of them stopped oncoming cars.
“Look, they’re not in their country,” said the man, Jean-Claude Leblanc, 72.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:44 AM on December 17, 2022
Outside a convenience store in Hérouxville, a woman and a man smoking cigarettes said they still supported the code of conduct.
They said that a group of Muslim cyclists was once seen crossing the main road, not at a traffic light, but at a spot where one of them stopped oncoming cars.
“Look, they’re not in their country,” said the man, Jean-Claude Leblanc, 72.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:44 AM on December 17, 2022
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posted by jenfullmoon at 12:37 PM on December 13, 2022 [2 favorites]