Kenny, this is for your own good

January 2, 2023 4:20 PM

CW: very uncomfortable read, execution, graphic

Alabama’s corrections department has bungled the procedure on three recent occasions, with IV teams failing for hours on end, adding immense distress to a difficult situation.

What is it like to survive an execution by lethal injection? Normally, there’s no one to tell the tale. But these are not normal times, especially in Alabama. [Obviously, this is uncomfortable reading].
posted by Rumple (49 comments total)

Surely if the state has tried to kill you and you survived they should let you go, isn't there literal double jeopardy otherwise?
posted by mbo at 4:34 PM on January 2, 2023 [6 favorites]

Holy shit. I know you put a warning in the post but holy shit. I thought I was jaded about the justice system. Damn.

It's the blatantly ignoring the stay of execution AND ignoring the non-IV gas hypoxia option. Either would be enough but both...

When things are bad enough that they convince Gov. Kay "Sure we can use covid relief funding to build prisons" Ivey to halt executions in the state, that's telling you something.
posted by Wretch729 at 5:11 PM on January 2, 2023 [9 favorites]

isn't there literal double jeopardy otherwise?

"When Broom objected that it would be unconstitutional to try and execute him twice, the state argued that an execution only begins once the lethal drugs are in your bloodstream. Broom said of this catch-22: “Once the chemicals enter your system, you’re as good as dead, so you would have no right of appeal.”
posted by porpoise at 5:14 PM on January 2, 2023 [3 favorites]

This is pretty heavy stuff. Maybe a content warning could be higher up or more pushed below the fold?
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:36 PM on January 2, 2023 [1 favorite]

I fucking hate that my home state of Oklahoma is the leader here.
posted by Quonab at 5:42 PM on January 2, 2023

The article mentions that the AMA and the anesthesiologists' association forbid their members from participating in an execution, but as far as I can tell these are toothless recommendations with no consequences for a violator.

The EMT and nursing associations seem to have the same issue.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:51 PM on January 2, 2023 [6 favorites]

AND ignoring the non-IV gas hypoxia option

Take a pro-death-penalty person through the cruelty of every currently used execution method -- especially counting the ways each of them can go wrong even if everyone involved tries really hard to do their job correctly. Ask them "Wouldn't it be better to do something that doesn't cause agony and terror?" You may be able to convert about 10 percent of people to being against all forms of the death penalty just with that argument. Around 20 percent will argue that you can't possibly guarantee that there's a painless method that will always work, and therefore we might as well execute people with whatever method is at hand. But 70 percent? That 70 percent will look you directly in the eye and tell you "They. Should. Suffer." The cruelty is the point.
posted by Etrigan at 5:54 PM on January 2, 2023 [35 favorites]

Yeah, I've had actual real-life conversations with people who want to bring back public drawing and quartering.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:13 PM on January 2, 2023 [1 favorite]

The article mentions that the AMA and the anesthesiologists' association forbid

They helpfully provide links to the policies. From the ABA.

For decades the American Medical Association (AMA) has been opposed to physician
involvement in capital punishment on the grounds that physicians are members of a
profession dedicated to preserving life when there is hope of doing so (3). Effective
February 15, 2010, the American Board of Anesthesiology (ABA) has incorporated the
AMA Code of Medical Ethics, Opinion E-2.06 (June 2000), regarding physician
participation in capital punishment into its own professional standing policy. Specifically,
it is the ABA’s position that an anesthesiologist should not participate in an execution by
lethal injection and that violation of this policy is inconsistent with the Professional
Standing criteria required for ABA Certification and Maintenance of Certification in
Anesthesiology or any of its subspecialties. As a consequence, ABA certificates may be
revoked if the ABA determines that a diplomate participates in an execution by lethal
injection (4). What constitutes participation is clearly defined by the AMA’s policy.

I presume that being decertified by the ABA means the end of your career.

It looks like actual professionals are prohibited from this work. I recently had a procedure to screw my elbow back on after I fell off my bike. The anesthesiologist used an ultrasound to find a bundle of nerves in my shoulder and guided a needle to exactly that point, making my whole arm numb for 18 hours. I had the impression that this was all he did every day.

Actual professionals can do this stuff. It's done every day in hospitals as standard practice. It's ordinary for a nurse to put in an IV. It's routine. It doesn't take four hours.

These people? Butchers. You know what? I think they like it. The power, the authority, maybe it's a thrill for them. The suffering doesn't seem to bother them much. They even ignored that stay, they really wanted to get it done. This isn't a business you just fall into. They chose it. They want to kill people.

Makes you wonder if they see themselves in the condemned?
posted by adept256 at 6:23 PM on January 2, 2023 [18 favorites]

Here's an idea, if there was a stay and they knew about it and went ahead anyway, isn't that attempted murder?
posted by adept256 at 6:57 PM on January 2, 2023 [29 favorites]

Jesus Christ
I have had someone try and fail to put an IV in, and have to move several times. It was extremely unpleasant and painful, and it was a nurse who was genuinely concerned with my comfort and trying to help me, and it only lasted about ten minutes.
From the article:
"How we treat and punish prisoners is the measure of our civil society, it’s the test. Shame on us, and shame on them, for causing this to happen"
Horrible.
posted by Adridne at 6:57 PM on January 2, 2023 [8 favorites]

I don’t like capital punishment but why don’t they just use a megadose of fentanyl.
posted by interogative mood at 7:51 PM on January 2, 2023 [2 favorites]

On the same day, Arizona struggled to insert IVs into the double murderer Murray Hooper and officials had to cut into his femoral artery. Hooper lifted his head off the gurney, looked through the glass at public witnesses and said: “Can you believe this?” (emphasis mine)

I'm side-eyeing that "had to cut into his femoral artery" part there.

There is no had to, this was a they butchered him with a giant needle with a 2-4mm of tip that's like a scalpel blade and severed his femoral artery. This is typically fatal without immediate surgical intervention.
posted by porpoise at 8:04 PM on January 2, 2023 [8 favorites]

But 70 percent? That 70 percent will look you directly in the eye and tell you "They. Should. Suffer." The cruelty is the point.

The suffering doesn't seem to bother them much. They even ignored that stay, they really wanted to get it done. This isn't a business you just fall into. They chose it. They want to kill people.

Abolish the death penalty. Horrific, and torture in more ways than just the painful botched endings. But I also find myself hoping the people who kill the people convicted of the death penalty are offered really good therapy.
posted by aniola at 8:21 PM on January 2, 2023 [5 favorites]

I don’t like capital punishment but why don’t they just use a megadose of fentanyl.

Because it would also kill every cop in the prison just from proximity.
posted by Etrigan at 8:25 PM on January 2, 2023 [31 favorites]

Much more expensive than life imprisonment.

Potentially kills an innocent person

Doesn't solve much for the victims of the crime

Not even that great of a deterrent

Frequently a complicated legal boondoggle

Immoral as can be, super unethical

Inhumane

Often physically painful

Often botched

Requires someone to kill a defenses person

Rehabilitation infinitely better than endless incarceration.




Death penalty pros: uh, it makes the vengeful feel better I guess?
posted by Jacen at 8:33 PM on January 2, 2023 [17 favorites]

I mean, if you're going to execute somebody, which I personally don't believe we have any right to do, but if you're going to do it, firing squad is the way to go. Half the shooters get blanks and the weapons are assigned randomly. Maybe there's some kind of draft wherein if you want to own more than a certain number of guns you have to register to be called up to the firing squad like jury duty.

Anyway, the article is very powerful. Thank you for sharing it.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:42 PM on January 2, 2023 [6 favorites]

I don’t like capital punishment but why don’t they just use a megadose of fentanyl.

Fentanyl is a controlled substance, strictly regulated at the federal level by the DEA. You would need a doctor's prescription to dispense it, and doctors aren't allowed to participate for ethical reasons.

As mentioned in the article, states are having difficulty sourcing even the (non-controlled) drugs used in executions, because most drug manufacturers also aren't willing to participate.
posted by neckro23 at 9:48 PM on January 2, 2023 [3 favorites]

Off the top of my head there are two execution methods that are painless. One, a gas chamber that gradually replaces air with nitrogen. The executed party simply falls asleep and never wakes up. Two, just keep giving heroin injections until they're dead; I have heard a thing or two about heroin being rather pleasant.

That said, I don't believe in the death penalty and hope that it is abolished on a federal level. But if it must be done (and it never must be done) then the minimal tradeoff for taking a human life is a humane method. That's not just for the executed party--that's for everyone.
posted by zardoz at 11:47 PM on January 2, 2023

These people? Butchers. You know what? I think they like it.

Many people who participate in executions regret having done so. Many of them support abolition of the death penalty as a result of their experiences.
posted by compartment at 12:48 AM on January 3, 2023 [11 favorites]

Many people who participate in executions regret having done so. Many of them support abolition of the death penalty as a result of their experiences.

The system deliberately selects for those willing to do so and resistant to the entreaties of the revulsed. Given a large enough population, they'll always find someone - there was a point in history where you could avoid the hangman's drop by becoming the hangman.

Has to be made illegal. Personal proclivity be damned.
posted by lalochezia at 5:27 AM on January 3, 2023

I hate capital punishment so much that I'm going to workshop a pain-free hopefully painless 100%70+% reliable method with noseveral possible avenues of abuse in the thread about how horrific it is when it inevitably goes wrong.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 5:53 AM on January 3, 2023 [9 favorites]

Please stop offering other ways to murder people. It's really grotesque and really isn't helping an already horrific thread.

The death penalty is immoral, racist, and frequently kills innocent people.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:05 AM on January 3, 2023 [17 favorites]

Yeah, I've had actual real-life conversations with people who want to bring back public drawing and quartering.

Did they fully understand what that process actually involves? Or was it just a “Tough on crime” hot-take? Cause, ye gadz, drawing-and-quartering is 1000% pure nightmare fuel for the witnesses, let alone the victim.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:52 AM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

I presume that being decertified by the ABA means the end of your career.

Not really. Although most openings require it, there are many practicing anesthesiologists who are not ABA credentialed. I'm sure you could find one in the state of AL who didn't care.

For many years (currently?) an ophthalmologist was the executioner for Missouri. It doesn't take extraordinary specific skills.

Much more expensive than life imprisonment.

My understanding that executions are more expensive because they get extensive appeals with actual legal recourse. The alternative is life imprisonment with a justice system that doesn't care.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:57 AM on January 3, 2023

Off the top of my head there are two execution methods that are painless. One, a gas chamber that gradually replaces air with nitrogen.

Article points out one prisoner wanted this, which the article describes as a right available to him in Alabama, and the state ignored that too. As pointed out, it’s as much the cruelty as it is the death.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:59 AM on January 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

People who are suggesting alternative methods of execution--presumably without any particular expertise in that field--might want to consider the example of the most notorious amateur who did that.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:09 AM on January 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

Using gas for execution isn’t the panacea it is claimed to be, according to this article. The article also points out that it carries some risk to the people performing the executions as well, especially considering they don’t appear very well trained in the job. All of these attempts to reform the procedures of the death penalty are nothing more than what Harry Blackmun famously described as “tinker(ing) with the machinery of death”.

One thing that really jumped out at me were descriptions of cutdown attempts and the attempt to place a subclavian line on Kenneth Smith. Both of theses procedures carry considerably more risk and require much more training than simply starting an IV in a peripheral vein (which is not always as simple as it sounds). In either event you run the risk of hitting an artery (a subclavian line goes in the vein, not the artery as described in the article) and causing arterial bleeding which is life-threatening. When placing a subclavian line it can be easy to cause a collapsed lung if you aren’t careful, which is also potentially life threatening and might not even be recognized by these clowns. Would they be able to deal with arterial bleeding if they aren’t even skilled enough to start an IV? Is trained help available for this sort of situation? If trained help was available would they even call for it, or would they simply let the prisoner bleed to death or die of a tension pneumothorax? That would certainly accomplish their goals, even if not by the intended method.

Capital punishment is just a clusterfuck all around.
posted by TedW at 7:27 AM on January 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

But if it must be done (and it never must be done) then the minimal tradeoff for taking a human life is a humane method.

OTOH, if you can't find someone willing to put a gun to their head and pull the trigger (such as the warden), to carry out the most direct, effective, graphic, and visceral form of execution, then that itself is reason not to execute prisoners. If no one has the courage of their convictions wrt the death penalty, then all attempts to make it humane and gentle are just moral excuse-making for the executioners.
posted by fatbird at 7:34 AM on January 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

Please stop offering other ways to murder people. It's really grotesque and really isn't helping an already horrific thread.

I agree the death penalty is immoral but I think it’s valid to discuss the ways that its methods of execution have changed, and how those methods impact people’s willingness to use them, participate in them, and allow them. Since the guillotine, people have been inventing “newer” “quicker” “cleaner” “more enlightened” “more humane” ways to kill people. We have been moving away, basically, from methods that “require” touching the condemned. We have been moving away (supposedly) from methods that get their blood on the executioner and bystanders. “We” want methods where we don’t see agony or death throes, hence injecting prisoners with immobilizing drugs. “We” want a veneer of medicalization, but not like with pets because we like pets. “We” are not violent, therefore we don’t want methods that are loud, like gunshots, even if they are supposedly quicker. The American gun is now blessed by its association with soldiers and police (who never commit crimes); politically it cannot be sullied. “Modern execution” is definitely not supposed to be a gross spectacle catering to the sadistic impulses of an audience, therefore it must be all right.
posted by Hypatia at 7:36 AM on January 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

Let's add that the death penalty is absolutely racist and that children and people with severe intellectual deficits have been murdered with it. It's barbaric. Searching for effective and affordable ways to kill people in retribution is soul-killing, and certainly antithetical to Christianity.

Heroin and morphine won't ever be considered because they are known to offer pleasure, and pain is part of the deal. There are people who would be willing to kill others, at least once.

American prisons are being offered to corporations to manage for profit, and there's no way that's going to go well. Rehabilitation is seldom offered meaningfully in most states. I do know 2 felons who got formal educations in prison in Maine in the 90s; both have gone on to become ordinary, taxpaying citizens. But the US has become anti-education.

It's a heart-breaking and important article. Most states have slowly moved away from civic murder, but the holdouts are glaringly vicious.
posted by theora55 at 7:45 AM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

Highlighting how inhumane the methods are exposes the fact that any "noble" reasons supporters give for keeping capital punishment in place are lies, and that the real motive is revenge.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:47 AM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

I agree the death penalty is immoral but I think it’s valid to discuss the ways that its methods of execution have changed, and how those methods impact people’s willingness to use them, participate in them, and allow them.

We don't need to think up methods in this thread, was my request. Yours seems entirely different.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:48 AM on January 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

(Um, might be a good discussion to have in Metatalk?)
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:06 AM on January 3, 2023

I don't have anything else to discuss on that point, so no.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:29 AM on January 3, 2023

The problem with quick and easy executions is that the people in charge think that means they should do more and more frequent executions. There's a reason "gas chambers" have a negative implication given the history of how they've been used to kill lots of people with minimal effort.

Executions where the deceased doesn't experience any 'body horror' are easier on the public too. Beheadings are seen as cruel; there's plenty of industrial equipment which can do it instantaneous and painless and 100% effective, but people think they're being civilized if there can be an open casket. Giving the executioners an easier time doesn't help make executions less of a problem.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:54 AM on January 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

Of course once I looked into it a bit the reality is that with the rise of right to die and acceptance of euthanasia science has already developed effective, painless ways to end someone’s life. No one needs to brainstorm of suggest ideas because we have the technology.

One problem seems to be that there is a subset of opponents of the death penalty who fear anything that makes it less cruel will make its use more prevalent and they have worked with those who want it to be it to be cruel to prevent any kind of reform from moving forward.
posted by interogative mood at 8:58 AM on January 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

As mentioned in the article, states are having difficulty sourcing even the (non-controlled) drugs used in executions, because most drug manufacturers also aren't willing to participate.

Midazolam is controlled (though in a low schedule) as presumably are the barbiturates they used to use before they became too hard to get. And I believe states have actually tried combining midazolam (not actually that good at knocking people out on its own) with opioids (which still was a disaster). So it’s not true that they specifically can’t get controlled drugs, but it’s become hard for them to get any drugs when it’s known what they plan to do with them.
posted by atoxyl at 9:05 AM on January 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

It's hard to create a real penalty for cooperating with the government, but if any physicians actually participate in executions, every one of them has remained anonymous.

Anyway lethal injection is ridiculous. There's no realistic way we can systematically make it less painful than firing squad. The only reason we use it is to pretend we are performing a medical procedure instead of admitting we are killing a human being. Anyone who supports the death penalty should have to face up to the fact that execution is the intentional killing of a human being.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 9:39 AM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

…barbiturates they used to use before they became too hard to get.

And they became hard to get specifically because they were being used to kill people. Thiopental was a good anesthetic induction agent, and it sucks that it is no longer available.
posted by TedW at 10:30 AM on January 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

I don’t like capital punishment but why don’t they just use a megadose of fentanyl.

Because it would also kill every cop in the prison just from proximity.

It's more likely that it is because the prison officials have a captive consumer base ready to buy because many of them are dealers. So they wouldn't want to share their product.
posted by srboisvert at 10:37 AM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

The shortage of drugs due to boycott by pharma raises an interesting question for the private prison complex: why doesn't some company set up its own chemical supply company selling exclusively to the prisons? It's not like they'd need FDA approval.
posted by fatbird at 11:24 AM on January 3, 2023

Annnnnnnd the type of drug is pointless when they can't get a vein, which is a huge point in the article.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:54 AM on January 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

Abolition is the only way forward.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:54 PM on January 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

The cruelty is the point.

20+ years on death row is already tragically cruel.
posted by bendy at 5:27 PM on January 3, 2023

The Underpants Monster, I was reading about Alabama looking into gas executions and it just led me to wonder when did avidly pro death penalty people get so sheepish about firing squads, and why?
posted by Selena777 at 1:12 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

>It's not like they'd need FDA approval.

How do you figure?
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 4:39 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

adding to Halloween Jack's comment, if you have not encountered Errol Morris's documentary on Henry Leuchter it's worth a view. The subject matter is disturbing and things get weird and more disturbing from there. An eminently watchable piece of horror.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:16 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

>It's not like they'd need FDA approval.

How do you figure?

[preface: yes, I understand the central problem presented in the article is the difficulty of finding usable veins, especially for poorly trained death teams.]

I looked up Alabama's statute for capital punishment just to verify that it didn't specify that FDA approved drugs have to be used. Here's the part for lethal injection drugs:

(f) Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, a person authorized by state law to prescribe medication and designated by the Department of Corrections may prescribe the drug or drugs necessary to compound a lethal injection. Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, a person authorized by state law to prepare, compound, or dispense medication and designated by the Department of Corrections may prepare, compound, or dispense a lethal injection. For purposes of this section, prescription, preparation, compounding, dispensing, and administration of a lethal injection shall not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or pharmacy. Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, a person designated by the Department of Corrections to participate in an execution in any capacity shall be exempt from criminal liability for necessary actions taken to carry out the execution.

Which just repeatedly says "authorized by state law" to prescribe or compound the drugs; compounding is what we're discussing here. All someone in the private prison industry would need to do is get someone to qualify under state law to compound drugs and then make them available to the prisons. I'm sure it's more complicated that I'm describing here, but it doesn't seem like a particularly heavy burden.

This is all very speculative and I don't want to derail this any further. It's just always been a question scratching at the back of my head every time the topic of lethal injection comes up.
posted by fatbird at 11:26 AM on January 4, 2023