For a Little While, Sir, We Had Us Some Fun
February 5, 2023 2:01 PM Subscribe
After 43 years of publishing in one form or another, by fans for fans of Bruce Springsteen, it's with mixed emotions that we announce Backstreets has reached the end of the road. ... If you haven't yet read that editorial ("Freeze-out," July 24, 2022), or the crux of response to Rolling Stone in November, we encourage you to do so; we don't want to rehash those issues, but we stand behind our positions and points.
Bruce Springsteen fanzine Backstreets to shut down over ticket prices [Grauniad]
Bruce Springsteen Fanzine ‘Backstreets’ to Shut Down: ‘End of an Era’ [Variety]
"Disillusioned" Bruce Springsteen fanzine ‘Backstreets’ shuts down after 43 years [Far Out]
Bruce Springsteen fanzine Backstreets to shut down over ticket prices [Grauniad]
Bruce Springsteen Fanzine ‘Backstreets’ to Shut Down: ‘End of an Era’ [Variety]
"Disillusioned" Bruce Springsteen fanzine ‘Backstreets’ shuts down after 43 years [Far Out]
Circumventing the greedy record industry has already happened. Bandcamp and Soundcloud exist. This is about concert tickets, which are nearly solely controlled by Ticketmaster, a fact that has received much attention of late thanks to Taylor Swift. And it soon will receive more because Beyonce tickets go on sale in the next week or so.
posted by hippybear at 2:36 PM on February 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:36 PM on February 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's hardly the Boss's fault that enough of his fan base has grown rich enough to spend thousands of dollars to convince themselves (and him) that they all still have the common touch. I'm not going to say Bruce is a big phony for getting paid, but his response was tone deaf if not outright disrespectful.
The bottom line is suckas be payin', and the money can go to the musicians or the scalpers. I see no way of squaring that circle.
posted by whuppy at 3:07 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
The bottom line is suckas be payin', and the money can go to the musicians or the scalpers. I see no way of squaring that circle.
posted by whuppy at 3:07 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
I’m gonna spend 400 dollars a pop for the Philly show, but after that it’s gonna be 0. This is my last time so I’m gonna make it with it. And frankly, judging by the Tampa footage, Bruce is getting old
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:13 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:13 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bruce is in his early 70s and should be allowed to retire with grace. But, like the Stones, he forms some kind of bedrock of the live music economy, and has been encouraged to keep playing - its great that the fanzine has managed to bring so much attention to the scandalous price of tickets.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:21 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 3:21 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Never been a Springsteen fan, but reading that response to the Rolling Stone question about ticket prices: wow. That dude has forgotten what it means to work for a living.
posted by signsofrain at 3:22 PM on February 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by signsofrain at 3:22 PM on February 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
Bruce never really worked tho. That’s the whole thing.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:33 PM on February 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:33 PM on February 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
That dude has forgotten what it means to work for a living.
He was 25, 26 when Born To Run hit it big for him. I'm not sure he ever really knew what it meant to work for a living.
posted by hippybear at 3:34 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
He was 25, 26 when Born To Run hit it big for him. I'm not sure he ever really knew what it meant to work for a living.
posted by hippybear at 3:34 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
The bottom line is suckas be payin', and the money can go to the musicians or the scalpers. I see no way of squaring that circle.
Yeah, I've been in favor of an ebay-like system for tickets for a while (i.e. you say what you are willing to pay and the system gives you the best seat for that bid.) The unanswered question is whether Ticketmaster's new algorithm somehow inflates the price beyond what would happen in an open, transparent market.
posted by anhedonic at 4:00 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I've been in favor of an ebay-like system for tickets for a while (i.e. you say what you are willing to pay and the system gives you the best seat for that bid.) The unanswered question is whether Ticketmaster's new algorithm somehow inflates the price beyond what would happen in an open, transparent market.
posted by anhedonic at 4:00 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I paid. About $800 for two tickets in Detroit next month, and it hurt my heart and wallet when I did it but, look - I'm 42. I've always loved the Boss but I've never seen him live and in concert, and at this rate if I don't bite now I don't think I ever will. My wife indulged me, bless her heart.
I'm a sucker, yeah, but, what the hell, it's only money. I wish Springsteen's response had been a little bit more outraged on the part of the working stiff, but, from Springsteen on Broadway:
'I come from a boardwalk town where everything is tinged with just a bit of fraud. So am I … I’ve never held an honest job in my entire life. I've never done any hard labor. I've never worked nine to five… I’ve never seen the inside of a factory and yet it’s all I’ve ever written about. Standing before you is a man who has become wildly and absurdly successful writing about something of which he has had absolutely no personal experience. I made it all up.'
posted by kbanas at 4:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [31 favorites]
I'm a sucker, yeah, but, what the hell, it's only money. I wish Springsteen's response had been a little bit more outraged on the part of the working stiff, but, from Springsteen on Broadway:
'I come from a boardwalk town where everything is tinged with just a bit of fraud. So am I … I’ve never held an honest job in my entire life. I've never done any hard labor. I've never worked nine to five… I’ve never seen the inside of a factory and yet it’s all I’ve ever written about. Standing before you is a man who has become wildly and absurdly successful writing about something of which he has had absolutely no personal experience. I made it all up.'
posted by kbanas at 4:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [31 favorites]
Not specific to Springsteen, but is there a good reason tickets are transferable? I know it would add time to the entry process to check against ID, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem to slow down scalping.
(I expect I'm being naive here about how any plan to make tickets non-transferable could work.)
posted by Ickster at 4:04 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
(I expect I'm being naive here about how any plan to make tickets non-transferable could work.)
posted by Ickster at 4:04 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
The industry has always claimed that they want your grandma to be able to buy you tickets as a gift, or some such thing. But yeah, it would make it impossible to buy for your teenage children.
posted by anhedonic at 4:11 PM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by anhedonic at 4:11 PM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Except you could buy it in their name, like you can with airline tickets...
posted by trig at 4:15 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by trig at 4:15 PM on February 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not specific to Springsteen, but is there a good reason tickets are transferable? I know it would add time to the entry process to check against ID, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem to slow down scalping.
Nine Inch Nails did this for a few tours. When you bought the tickets (a limited number), they printed your name on the tickets. You then had to get everyone you bought tickets for to enter with you, and you had to show an ID that matched the name on the tickets (one ID for the entire group) to get into the show.
I don't know if they had a system like airline tickets where you could buy under someone else's name or not. I was buying them for me and friends.
posted by hippybear at 4:19 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Nine Inch Nails did this for a few tours. When you bought the tickets (a limited number), they printed your name on the tickets. You then had to get everyone you bought tickets for to enter with you, and you had to show an ID that matched the name on the tickets (one ID for the entire group) to get into the show.
I don't know if they had a system like airline tickets where you could buy under someone else's name or not. I was buying them for me and friends.
posted by hippybear at 4:19 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think like 5% of tickets holders never show up. If tickets were non transferable then that would be higher, and really bad for concessions.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:20 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:20 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think like 5% of tickets holders never show up. If tickets were non transferable then that would be higher, and really bad for concessions.
So allow returns prior to door opening. Put the tickets back up for sale at the original face value.
-----
Anyway, I was just thinking about whether it was feasible or not to know if his "if we don't gouge the scalpers will" was pragmatic or bullshit. Unsurprisingly, it seems like the latter.
posted by Ickster at 4:31 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
So allow returns prior to door opening. Put the tickets back up for sale at the original face value.
-----
Anyway, I was just thinking about whether it was feasible or not to know if his "if we don't gouge the scalpers will" was pragmatic or bullshit. Unsurprisingly, it seems like the latter.
posted by Ickster at 4:31 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Back in the day when they actually handed or mailed you a physical ticket, I often resold tickets I couldn't use. I never ever sold them for more than I paid for them. That feels entirely against the spirit of rock and roll to me. When Ticketbastard bought those resale scalping operations and rolled them directly into their service, I knew we were headed into a bad territory.
The US has in general a really bad problem with market consolidation and monopolies, and we lack any of the will we had over a century ago when we took down the Robber Barons. I don't know where that's going to come from, but our citizenry are going to be driven into destitution by all these megacorps raking in record profits and blaming it on inflation. And that doesn't even touch the bullshit that is ticketing these days.
posted by hippybear at 4:32 PM on February 5, 2023 [19 favorites]
The US has in general a really bad problem with market consolidation and monopolies, and we lack any of the will we had over a century ago when we took down the Robber Barons. I don't know where that's going to come from, but our citizenry are going to be driven into destitution by all these megacorps raking in record profits and blaming it on inflation. And that doesn't even touch the bullshit that is ticketing these days.
posted by hippybear at 4:32 PM on February 5, 2023 [19 favorites]
Springsteen via the 3rd link in the OP:
"I know it was unpopular with some fans. But if there's any complaints on the way out, you can have your money back."
Perhaps that's the solution right there.
posted by fairmettle at 4:55 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
"I know it was unpopular with some fans. But if there's any complaints on the way out, you can have your money back."
Perhaps that's the solution right there.
posted by fairmettle at 4:55 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
fairmettle:
Springsteen via the 3rd link in the OP:
"I know it was unpopular with some fans. But if there's any complaints on the way out, you can have your money back."
Perhaps that's the solution right there.
Ticketmaster says no refunds and good luck getting a hold of The Boss to make good on this offer. Best case scenario, it turns into a Pepsi Harrier jet situation where it gets tossed by a judge as a unserious offer made in jest.
posted by dr_dank at 5:07 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Springsteen via the 3rd link in the OP:
"I know it was unpopular with some fans. But if there's any complaints on the way out, you can have your money back."
Perhaps that's the solution right there.
Ticketmaster says no refunds and good luck getting a hold of The Boss to make good on this offer. Best case scenario, it turns into a Pepsi Harrier jet situation where it gets tossed by a judge as a unserious offer made in jest.
posted by dr_dank at 5:07 PM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
> Bruce never really worked tho. That’s the whole thing.
I'm taking his word for it, but his autobiography (Born to Run) makes it clear he worked really, really hard for years to become an overnight success. Not that that excuses those ticket prices.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:07 PM on February 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm taking his word for it, but his autobiography (Born to Run) makes it clear he worked really, really hard for years to become an overnight success. Not that that excuses those ticket prices.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:07 PM on February 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
I am reminded of the Steve Martin line from ~45 years ago, which I cannot fully recall. It was to the effect of, “I’ve done the math, and if in a three thousand seat hall, I charge five dollars a ticket, I make $15,000. If I charge eight dollars a ticket, I make $24,000. But if I charge $12,000 a ticket, that’s $36 million. That’s what I am aiming for. One show. Goodbye.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:03 PM on February 5, 2023 [23 favorites]
Being a working musician is real work. It's at least as "real" work as having an e-mail job, bu with more time spent in a van, and a lot less consistency in daily schedule, work/life balance, and job security.
said as someone who's worked as a musician and who's very, very glad for his e-mail job, because the other, way harder, way realer work i've done is in kitchens and that's also way more miserable
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:22 PM on February 5, 2023 [27 favorites]
said as someone who's worked as a musician and who's very, very glad for his e-mail job, because the other, way harder, way realer work i've done is in kitchens and that's also way more miserable
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:22 PM on February 5, 2023 [27 favorites]
I completely get where Springsteen is coming from on this. He is one of the hottest tickets in popular music and he's as capable as anyone of seeing how high a price tickets to his shows commands on the secondary market. All he has to do is go look at wherever resales are happening these days. Why shouldn't he and his band get that money, instead of a rando who happened to get lucky on a ticket website? Just because it makes him look greedy? So what. He isn't in the "cultivate long term goodwill with fans" phase of his career anymore.
I feel I should point out that at this point anyone who enjoys live music is thinking about grabbing a ticket to this tour because Springsteen is known as one of the best performers in the business and he doesn't have that many tours left in him. So part of it is that superfans are competing with a bunch of casuals trying to get a glimpse of The Boss before he hangs it up. I'm honestly not a Bruce fan but I gave a minute of thought to trying to catch this tour just to be there.
Frankly, in this day and age where so many bands are saying they can't afford to tour, I'm glad to see some experimentation going on with revenue models. I would happily see demand pricing happening for smaller acts too if they could actually pocket more of the money from people who are willing to pay high dollar for a certain seat.
posted by potrzebie at 7:20 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel I should point out that at this point anyone who enjoys live music is thinking about grabbing a ticket to this tour because Springsteen is known as one of the best performers in the business and he doesn't have that many tours left in him. So part of it is that superfans are competing with a bunch of casuals trying to get a glimpse of The Boss before he hangs it up. I'm honestly not a Bruce fan but I gave a minute of thought to trying to catch this tour just to be there.
Frankly, in this day and age where so many bands are saying they can't afford to tour, I'm glad to see some experimentation going on with revenue models. I would happily see demand pricing happening for smaller acts too if they could actually pocket more of the money from people who are willing to pay high dollar for a certain seat.
posted by potrzebie at 7:20 PM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
The crazy pricing isn't as entirely tied to demand as Ticketmaster would have us think. In fact its more often tied to your own demand.
Ticketmaster does that thing where they drop a cookie on your browser, and when they see you look at tickets, then search for different tickets, they increment the price of the tickets each time you search. I recently bought tickets to a cricket match and while I clicked around looking for the best seats I noticed that the same seats in the same section went up in price by a huge amount. $120 tickets ended up being quoted as $2500 each! In the end I started an incognito window and bought the same tickets at the original price of $120.
posted by awfurby at 7:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
Ticketmaster does that thing where they drop a cookie on your browser, and when they see you look at tickets, then search for different tickets, they increment the price of the tickets each time you search. I recently bought tickets to a cricket match and while I clicked around looking for the best seats I noticed that the same seats in the same section went up in price by a huge amount. $120 tickets ended up being quoted as $2500 each! In the end I started an incognito window and bought the same tickets at the original price of $120.
posted by awfurby at 7:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [17 favorites]
Not to derail the ticket price thing, but I'm sad about the end of Backstreets. I've had an account on the message board for 20 years and will miss feverishly checking in when there are rumors of tours. I also used to participate in the bootleg vines when that was the only way to get them - snail-mailing CD copies down a list to strangers.
So, I think the letter was one of the most ill-advised things Bruce ever did. And I deplore the Ticketmaster nonsense. That said, I lost out in the Verified Fan onsale so I signed up for Ticketdrones, and also just checked back at Wells Fargo Philly a couple times, and finally got seats I'm happy with for $240.
"I know it was unpopular with some fans. But if there's any complaints on the way out, you can have your money back."
Like, fair. I grew up on Bruce and I am going to spare talking about the depth of my feelings about him and the band. This will only be my 8th show ever, because for most of my life I didn't have a lot of concert money. My first show was the Rising Tour. And each and every time I've spent far too much money on tickets, I walked out of the show going "worth it. 100% worth it." Even I have a price ceiling, but if I can get in for under that ceiling, I'm not going to be unhappy at all. The feeling's irreplaceable.
posted by Miko at 7:44 PM on February 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
So, I think the letter was one of the most ill-advised things Bruce ever did. And I deplore the Ticketmaster nonsense. That said, I lost out in the Verified Fan onsale so I signed up for Ticketdrones, and also just checked back at Wells Fargo Philly a couple times, and finally got seats I'm happy with for $240.
"I know it was unpopular with some fans. But if there's any complaints on the way out, you can have your money back."
Like, fair. I grew up on Bruce and I am going to spare talking about the depth of my feelings about him and the band. This will only be my 8th show ever, because for most of my life I didn't have a lot of concert money. My first show was the Rising Tour. And each and every time I've spent far too much money on tickets, I walked out of the show going "worth it. 100% worth it." Even I have a price ceiling, but if I can get in for under that ceiling, I'm not going to be unhappy at all. The feeling's irreplaceable.
posted by Miko at 7:44 PM on February 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't have strong feelings about Springsteen one way or the other, but I've read articles in magazines like Mojo and Uncut about the early years of his career when he was just another guy in a bar band and people who were interviewed were like "Yeah, he used to crash on my couch after gigs," so even thought it was a long, long time ago at this point, it seems as though he definitely paid his dues as a working musician before he became The Boss and a millionaire.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:49 PM on February 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:49 PM on February 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Part of the reason I left behind my career of 20+ years was a newfound emphasis on dynamic pricing (although we called it "yield management"). When I started, people could call on the phone and ask, "How much is this product?" and I could tell them. In the end, I guess* I'd have to tell them to go on the website, agree to the terms and conditions, allow cookies, and try to start a purchase before it would tell them (and as with awfurby's cricket match above, if they came back a minute later, the price would have gone up). Six people all buying the same product on the sane day would pay six different prices. I was told, "Well, that's how airlines do it," as if airlines were businesses everyone rejoiced at a chance to deal with.
I used to like my job, before the industry got transformed into a daily grind to extract every last penny we could from anyone whom we could snare.
*I say, "I guess," because by the time I left, phone number listings were being removed so a customer could not really talk to a human any more.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:45 PM on February 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
I used to like my job, before the industry got transformed into a daily grind to extract every last penny we could from anyone whom we could snare.
*I say, "I guess," because by the time I left, phone number listings were being removed so a customer could not really talk to a human any more.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:45 PM on February 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
Anybody who's seen a Springsteen show knows he's a hard worker. That said, he sounds like a right asshole here, disingenuous and callous, and it's depressing. We all know nobody's getting their money back, and even if they were, they would need to be the kind of people who have $5000 (or whatever) to blow on entertainment in the first place. Satisfaction guaranteed--for the 1%.
posted by HotToddy at 9:52 PM on February 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 9:52 PM on February 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Not specific to Springsteen, but is there a good reason tickets are transferable? I know it would add time to the entry process to check against ID, but it doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem to slow down scalping.
It worked for Hamilton here in London. Presenting your ticket at the theatre entrance, you had to also produce the card you used to pay for it and some photo ID. The staff checking these were well-trained and efficient, so queues moved pretty smoothly from what I saw.
One bonus of this system was that anyone unable to make it on the night returned their tickets to the box office for a refund, where these were made available as returns for about a week ahead of the date in question. The box office sold these at face value. This side of the system worked well too - in fact, I'd never have seen the show without it.
Hamilton was such a huge deal that its producers had the muscle to insist Ticketmaster played ball with all these restrictions. Artists at Springsteen's level could presumably make the same demands if they wanted to. I don't begrudge anyone slapping premium prices on their best seats, but this system does at least cut out the scalpers who'd otherwise triple or quadruple the ticket's price. If Hamilton could make the economics of this work, then why couldn't arena rock shows do so too?
posted by Paul Slade at 11:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [19 favorites]
It worked for Hamilton here in London. Presenting your ticket at the theatre entrance, you had to also produce the card you used to pay for it and some photo ID. The staff checking these were well-trained and efficient, so queues moved pretty smoothly from what I saw.
One bonus of this system was that anyone unable to make it on the night returned their tickets to the box office for a refund, where these were made available as returns for about a week ahead of the date in question. The box office sold these at face value. This side of the system worked well too - in fact, I'd never have seen the show without it.
Hamilton was such a huge deal that its producers had the muscle to insist Ticketmaster played ball with all these restrictions. Artists at Springsteen's level could presumably make the same demands if they wanted to. I don't begrudge anyone slapping premium prices on their best seats, but this system does at least cut out the scalpers who'd otherwise triple or quadruple the ticket's price. If Hamilton could make the economics of this work, then why couldn't arena rock shows do so too?
posted by Paul Slade at 11:37 PM on February 5, 2023 [19 favorites]
I am mostly off Mefi but I'll come back for this.... I wrote a few things for Backstreets back in the early 90s. I was and remain a Springsteen uberstan. Seeing him live is a singular experience. And I'm with him on this. I'm a professional working rock musician to this day, still covering Springsteen material. I will always side with musicians against any other aspect of the music industry. Even rich and famous ones. And saying he "never worked" for his success is to fundamentally misunderstand that making music is a job
posted by spitbull at 3:42 AM on February 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by spitbull at 3:42 AM on February 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
If Hamilton could make the economics of this work, then why couldn't arena rock shows do so too?
Some do. Ed Sheeran does this and it works well. The scalpers get nothing, and all the tickets are made available to the fans at a fair price. But the artist and their management have to choose to take the time and spend the money to implement such a system. It is a lot of overhead to commit to the principal of fairness.
Springsteen (and more specifically, his manager Jon Landau) has taken the opposite approach in a transparent effort to fleece the rubes one last time before he hangs up his guitar. It's a damn shame, because (as noted above) a live Springsteen show is a singular experience that everyone should be able to enjoy.
I'm also curious as to why they didn't pull these shenanigans for the UK shows. I got tickets for about £100 each, which is on the steep side of fair.
posted by Optamystic at 4:12 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Some do. Ed Sheeran does this and it works well. The scalpers get nothing, and all the tickets are made available to the fans at a fair price. But the artist and their management have to choose to take the time and spend the money to implement such a system. It is a lot of overhead to commit to the principal of fairness.
Springsteen (and more specifically, his manager Jon Landau) has taken the opposite approach in a transparent effort to fleece the rubes one last time before he hangs up his guitar. It's a damn shame, because (as noted above) a live Springsteen show is a singular experience that everyone should be able to enjoy.
I'm also curious as to why they didn't pull these shenanigans for the UK shows. I got tickets for about £100 each, which is on the steep side of fair.
posted by Optamystic at 4:12 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I may have become completely disillusioned but there is no denying the Boss works his ass off.
posted by whuppy at 6:27 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 6:27 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The “never worked” line is being taken too literally. No question that it’s hard work putting on the show that they do and moving it from city to city for weeks on end; I’m thinking that “never worked” refers to the “9-5 punch a time clock after a shift at the refinery” blue collar work depicted in the songs, a life he’s admitted to never having lived.
By the same token, I’m sure Gene Simmons’ dayplanner isn’t really filled with alternating pages of “rock and roll” and “party”.
posted by dr_dank at 7:15 AM on February 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
By the same token, I’m sure Gene Simmons’ dayplanner isn’t really filled with alternating pages of “rock and roll” and “party”.
posted by dr_dank at 7:15 AM on February 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm always a little befuddled when a near-billionaire is lauded for arbitrarily raising the price of a scarce good.
posted by SunSnork at 7:16 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by SunSnork at 7:16 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
My issue is the disconnect between the sentiment of the songs and the reality. In his Broadway show he claims to have invented the New Jersey working people mythos that is in his songs' universe. He didn't invent it, he exploited it and now he's exploiting those same people. $1,200 is too much to pay for a show. That's some people's rent or mortgage payment, more than what is in the bank accounts of the people that he used to sing about.
He's right about one thing, everybody's doing it. There are tickets for a Willie Nelson (a friend of the put upon farmer) show in Florida that are $950 list, though you can get in for $64 (plus fees, of course).
Go to a club, see something you haven't seen before. You'll have fun, spend less money, be appreciated more, and maybe, just maybe, you'll see a future million record seller.
PS Fuck Ticketmaster, too.
posted by donpardo at 7:24 AM on February 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
He's right about one thing, everybody's doing it. There are tickets for a Willie Nelson (a friend of the put upon farmer) show in Florida that are $950 list, though you can get in for $64 (plus fees, of course).
Go to a club, see something you haven't seen before. You'll have fun, spend less money, be appreciated more, and maybe, just maybe, you'll see a future million record seller.
PS Fuck Ticketmaster, too.
posted by donpardo at 7:24 AM on February 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
Artists at Springsteen's level could presumably make the same demands if they wanted to.
I don't think so anymore. It's Chinatown. Some may recall that there was a lawsuit about Bruce tickets against Ticketmaster in 2009. At that time, he fully supported the lawsuit and publicly condemned the practice, and he said: "The one thing that would make the current ticket situation even worse for the fan than it is now would be Ticketmaster and Live Nation coming up with a single system, thereby returning us to a near monopoly situation in music ticketing. If you, like us, oppose that idea, you should make it known to your representatives.” There was some effort toward that, but ultimately, what happened? TM and LiveNation merged. That company has now vertically integrated itself so deeply into artist management and venue management that it is very difficult to fight the structure. Ed Sheeran worked around it to some degree by booking 2nd-tier cities and smaller venues - not something Bruce can readily do.
When you read Springsteen's comments on this recent clusterfuck, he references his age a lot. The business side of him must definitely be thinking: "I am an economic engine for the 18-piece band (many of whom are not famous or particularly wealthy, but are working musicians who, when not on tour, have jobs and hustle) plus the entire road crew and armies of publicists and handlers. This may be our last tour ever. This may be the last chance for any of these folks to earn tour money. It's also maybe my last chance to sock away some more cash to leave my growing family and the great many charities I support. Maybe this particular tour - recognizing six years of pent-up demand - is not the one to fight the power on":
One final point I'll make in Bruce's favor: there are some miracles built into his process that other artists don't bother with. For example, he ensures every venue has ticket drops that pop up at unexpected times after the early sale, and those tickets are surprisingly affordable. He also gives away tickets and upgrades tickets in the venue the night of.
The letter he wrote is tone-deaf yes. But what I hear more is that in it, he just sounds tired of it all and wants to go out on tour, not buck an entire system that would just as soon let him rot rather than rework their finely honed pricing arrangements.
posted by Miko at 7:32 AM on February 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't think so anymore. It's Chinatown. Some may recall that there was a lawsuit about Bruce tickets against Ticketmaster in 2009. At that time, he fully supported the lawsuit and publicly condemned the practice, and he said: "The one thing that would make the current ticket situation even worse for the fan than it is now would be Ticketmaster and Live Nation coming up with a single system, thereby returning us to a near monopoly situation in music ticketing. If you, like us, oppose that idea, you should make it known to your representatives.” There was some effort toward that, but ultimately, what happened? TM and LiveNation merged. That company has now vertically integrated itself so deeply into artist management and venue management that it is very difficult to fight the structure. Ed Sheeran worked around it to some degree by booking 2nd-tier cities and smaller venues - not something Bruce can readily do.
When you read Springsteen's comments on this recent clusterfuck, he references his age a lot. The business side of him must definitely be thinking: "I am an economic engine for the 18-piece band (many of whom are not famous or particularly wealthy, but are working musicians who, when not on tour, have jobs and hustle) plus the entire road crew and armies of publicists and handlers. This may be our last tour ever. This may be the last chance for any of these folks to earn tour money. It's also maybe my last chance to sock away some more cash to leave my growing family and the great many charities I support. Maybe this particular tour - recognizing six years of pent-up demand - is not the one to fight the power on":
“What I do is a very simple thing. I tell my guys, ‘Go out and see what everybody else is doing. Let’s charge a little less.’ That’s generally the directions. They go out and set it up. For the past 49 years or however long we’ve been playing, we’ve pretty much been out there under market value. I’ve enjoyed that. It’s been great for the fans,” Springsteen said. “This time I told them, ‘Hey, we’re 73 years old. The guys are there. I want to do what everybody else is doing, my peers.’ So that’s what happened. That’s what they did....We have those tickets that are going to go for that [higher] price somewhere anyway. The ticket broker or someone is going to be taking that money. I’m going, ‘Hey, why shouldn’t that money go to the guys that are going to be up there sweating three hours a night for it?’ It created an opportunity for that to occur.”And ultimately, I've found it's true that there are plenty of tickets in what Landau calls the "mid-200s range." No, I didn't buy at first when the dynamic pricing surge was giving me $1400 ticket offers. Yes, by waiting I got so-so tickets high near the side of the stage. But I don't feel fleeced by Springsteen's management. I paid about the same the last time I saw him. Instead I feel angry at the exploitive, profit-driven industries that insert themselves into the marketplace and divide the world into premium buyers and rabble, but that is the way things seem to be going in the world of high-demand. Gone is the lottery, gone is waiting in line outside the record store. The monster has been created and I can see how, at the age they are, they just decided not to fight this fight. Fortunately maybe Swifties and Beyonce, when her tour goes on sale, will be able to make more headway against it. But I don't know, the fix is totally in. And it's already come for theatre, it'll come for restaurants, it's come for amusement parks and hotels...this is what the age of the algorithm gets us.
One final point I'll make in Bruce's favor: there are some miracles built into his process that other artists don't bother with. For example, he ensures every venue has ticket drops that pop up at unexpected times after the early sale, and those tickets are surprisingly affordable. He also gives away tickets and upgrades tickets in the venue the night of.
The letter he wrote is tone-deaf yes. But what I hear more is that in it, he just sounds tired of it all and wants to go out on tour, not buck an entire system that would just as soon let him rot rather than rework their finely honed pricing arrangements.
posted by Miko at 7:32 AM on February 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
Music is an interesting art form in that there often seems to be more of an expectation from audiences that artists feel, experience (or have experienced) what they sing about, as opposed to, say, authors or actors, for whom there is (generally speaking; there are of course questions of cultural appropriation) less pushback if they write about or take on a role that has nothing to do with their lived reality, as long as they do it well/with respect. As such, the criticisms levelled at Springsteen about the cost of tickets to his shows seem more pertinent to me than any regarding the fact that he never really lived the working class life he writes and sings about.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:40 AM on February 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:40 AM on February 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
If Hamilton could make the economics of this work, then why couldn't arena rock shows do so too?
Are they the same thing though? Does Hamilton tour or is the entire run at one theatre? If that theatre is willing to stand up to Ticketmaster, they could do what they did. Springsteen has to deal with 30-40 different venues, many of whom have inked exclusivity deals with Ticketmaster. And many more of them simply won't deal with your tour if they know you're trying to go around Ticketmaster, because it means in the future Ticketmaster will blacklist them for tours by other artists. They're vertically integrated in the live music market and control like 2/3rds of all venues, and an even higher percentage of larger venues. I doubt even Taylor Swift or Beyonce can break them. They're Standard Oil. Either the government breaks them up, or they keep on screwing everyone and enriching themselves.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 7:47 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Are they the same thing though? Does Hamilton tour or is the entire run at one theatre? If that theatre is willing to stand up to Ticketmaster, they could do what they did. Springsteen has to deal with 30-40 different venues, many of whom have inked exclusivity deals with Ticketmaster. And many more of them simply won't deal with your tour if they know you're trying to go around Ticketmaster, because it means in the future Ticketmaster will blacklist them for tours by other artists. They're vertically integrated in the live music market and control like 2/3rds of all venues, and an even higher percentage of larger venues. I doubt even Taylor Swift or Beyonce can break them. They're Standard Oil. Either the government breaks them up, or they keep on screwing everyone and enriching themselves.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 7:47 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The always-in-crisis Carolina Theater in Durham could do this in an envelope-prevents-most-people-reading-your-mail way. The tiniest speed bump makes a difference in a) ease and frequency of fraud, and b) the feeling of acceptableness and normalizing. Just: look at someone's ID; have a couple of police on hand in case someone gets offended; publicize it well in advance.
Ticketmaster, though: they can surely mandate a much more sophisticated version of this if they've mandated so much else. The concert venues they work with are also a lot more sophisticated (mostly, I think) than the Carolina.
posted by amtho at 8:25 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ticketmaster, though: they can surely mandate a much more sophisticated version of this if they've mandated so much else. The concert venues they work with are also a lot more sophisticated (mostly, I think) than the Carolina.
posted by amtho at 8:25 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bruce never worked? Never played in a band, methinks. Thousands of shit gigs shlepping gear into and out of these establishments is most definitely work.
posted by aiq at 8:41 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by aiq at 8:41 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
For a guy who, for decades, has been positioning himself as Woody Guthrie redivivus as he chronicles the Plight of the Working Man™, having the working man/woman be unable to buy tickets to see him sing the songs extolling them rings more than a bit hollow to me. Bryan Ferry? Duran Duran? Sure, those guys always played like the Euro-swinger velvet-rope-and-stanchion set was their target demo. But Brooooce? Wasn't he that scruffy grease monkey fixing the ritzy lady's car in "I'm On Fire"?
I saw Springsteen at No Nukes and then at another concert at the Garden in the late '70s. And it was fine. But it wasn't the orgasmic experience everyone touts. And I'm of the "his catalog stopped appealing to me after Darkness" school anyway, so $400 to see him? Only if he's opening for Björk.
posted by the sobsister at 8:48 AM on February 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I saw Springsteen at No Nukes and then at another concert at the Garden in the late '70s. And it was fine. But it wasn't the orgasmic experience everyone touts. And I'm of the "his catalog stopped appealing to me after Darkness" school anyway, so $400 to see him? Only if he's opening for Björk.
posted by the sobsister at 8:48 AM on February 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Go to a club, see something you haven't seen before. You'll have fun, spend less money, be appreciated more, and maybe, just maybe, you'll see a future million record seller.
I absolutely agree with this. I wouldn't cross the road to see an arena show, no matter who was playing it or how cheap the tickets. Give me a sweaty little club with a small-to-unknown band on stage every time.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:04 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I absolutely agree with this. I wouldn't cross the road to see an arena show, no matter who was playing it or how cheap the tickets. Give me a sweaty little club with a small-to-unknown band on stage every time.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:04 AM on February 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Tangentially, when listening to The Lords or Soccer, one thing that struck me was how large tranches of tickets were used as kickbacks in negotiations between teams, venues, promoters and FIFA, each of whom went on to sell or use them however it benefitted them most. I wonder how much of this practice is part of in concert promotion? Possibly a bit less given how tight the vertical Ticketmaster monopoly is.
posted by slogger at 9:54 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by slogger at 9:54 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm on the stadium website for the Philly show right now. There are many tickets available for $59.50 and face and a whole slew of uppers for $149.
posted by Miko at 10:17 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 10:17 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seems crazy to me to complain about Bruce Springsteen, a man known for putting on some of the best shows in rock music, instead of complaining about the fact that the laws are not enforced against an illegal monopoly like Ticketmaster, with economic power that makes Bruce look like a nobody.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:23 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:23 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I looked enough at the links and traced far enough to get the Variety article that explains what this is all about. That I had to do that puts me out of the audience of people who replied. I'm saying, I never cared that much about Springsteen, and in fact I'd guess I'm in the bottom 5%ile of MeFi readers for going to live performances of (20th century mass culture) music.
So I found the indignation in the Backstreet item a little... misdirected? I mean, when is a fan entitled to demand anything, really, from an artist? It's a question that has come up in culture that I have paid attention to, namely the book form of A Song of Ice and Fire. Which bids fair to remain incomplete, as it approaches the 12th anniversary of its (long-overdue at the time) previous installment, the fifth of a planned three. What started looking like an imposing mountain range of a story has instead become an endless trackless marsh of subplots, all distracting attention from the existential threat to the human world that's lurking beyond the Wall, to the extent that we suspect even the author has forgotten it. And people are pissed about that. But I digress. I don't actually think Martin owes me a resolution of the loose ends he left lying around.
Anyway, of the comments so far I think only @whuppy touches on the basic issue in a way that is interesting to non-fans-of-Springsteen. Specifically
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:30 AM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
So I found the indignation in the Backstreet item a little... misdirected? I mean, when is a fan entitled to demand anything, really, from an artist? It's a question that has come up in culture that I have paid attention to, namely the book form of A Song of Ice and Fire. Which bids fair to remain incomplete, as it approaches the 12th anniversary of its (long-overdue at the time) previous installment, the fifth of a planned three. What started looking like an imposing mountain range of a story has instead become an endless trackless marsh of subplots, all distracting attention from the existential threat to the human world that's lurking beyond the Wall, to the extent that we suspect even the author has forgotten it. And people are pissed about that. But I digress. I don't actually think Martin owes me a resolution of the loose ends he left lying around.
Anyway, of the comments so far I think only @whuppy touches on the basic issue in a way that is interesting to non-fans-of-Springsteen. Specifically
It's hardly the Boss's fault that enough of his fan base has grown rich enough to spend thousands of dollars to convince themselves (and him) that they all still have the common touch.The problem here is that in markets where there are the kind of 10,000-seat arenas where Springsteen would play, there are enough filthy-rich people who can drop ten large on a pair of concert tickets to fill the fucking hall. The only answer to this situation is large-scale redistribution.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:30 AM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ticketmaster is a complete, unregulated monopoly. They own the "ticketing" for thousands of venues around the nation and the world. They don't care, they don't have to. Springsteen isn't being "cold" in his comments. He has no choice. No Ticketmaster? No Venue. No Concerts. No Tour. Pearl Jam took the major hit when this all started.
And, it isn't just music.
Matt Stoller writes about monopoly and anti trust law.
https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/dont-make-taylor-swift-fans-angry
A deeper dive by American Prospect
https://prospect.org/power/ticketmasters-dark-history/?ref=penny-fractions
posted by pthomas745 at 10:38 AM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
And, it isn't just music.
Matt Stoller writes about monopoly and anti trust law.
https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/dont-make-taylor-swift-fans-angry
A deeper dive by American Prospect
https://prospect.org/power/ticketmasters-dark-history/?ref=penny-fractions
posted by pthomas745 at 10:38 AM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
The most money I have ever spent for any musician in re: tickets is when Tom Waits did his two tours in the early 00s, and I paid $200 each time. In hindsight, I was making barista money and I saved up to go because, much like Springsteen, Waits is long in the tooth and I don't think another tour is coming any time soon. It was my only chance to see my patron saint live and I regret nothing.
Would I pay that now to see him if he were to tour? Maybe? But then the pandemic has soured me on live music with too many people around me.
posted by Kitteh at 11:23 AM on February 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would I pay that now to see him if he were to tour? Maybe? But then the pandemic has soured me on live music with too many people around me.
posted by Kitteh at 11:23 AM on February 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Never been to one of his shows but I've seen a couple of documentaries and lots of streaming misc from wherever. Known plenty of people who are enthralled, one guy who pretty much made that band his lifetime religion, makes every show that he can and did so even before he hit the big bucks.
Anyone who doesn't see that Springsteen is working his ass off is blind. And deaf. Myself, I'd say dumb, also: Dumb as a sackful of hammers. Dumb as a box of rocks. Springsteen gives everything that he has and then gives more, and then more. For hours and hours. He's an amazing human being. Everybody has an off switch; Springsteen wills himself to not even consider reaching for that switch until everybody in the hall is utterly soaked in joy. Which brings him joy. That's called "work" or at least that's what I'll call it. It's no accident that he's become who he is; he's worked his ass off for every bit of it.
~~~~~
I'm like those above, music in the clubs is where I'll go, if/when I go at all -- you swear when you move here to Austin that "No way, nunh-unh, I'll never take it for granted." But nobody who lives at Disneyworld goes on the rides, people who work in the finest chocolate factories don't eat it every day. I'm like "Oh yeah, world class spectacular shows here tonight; hmmm, think I'm going to stay in and read." Times I've gone to huge shows it always hit or miss, I don't chase it down but life being what it is sometimes nice things just happen, like a butterfly landing on my hand. Have you ever had a beautiful moth or butterfly close and reach your hand out and it lands on you? I have. Costs nothing, pays great. Marcus Aurelius: Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny. For what could more aptly fit your needs?
I'm glad that those of you who are in Springsteens thrall and able to make his shows have had that woven into the pattern of your destiny. You're living right.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:25 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyone who doesn't see that Springsteen is working his ass off is blind. And deaf. Myself, I'd say dumb, also: Dumb as a sackful of hammers. Dumb as a box of rocks. Springsteen gives everything that he has and then gives more, and then more. For hours and hours. He's an amazing human being. Everybody has an off switch; Springsteen wills himself to not even consider reaching for that switch until everybody in the hall is utterly soaked in joy. Which brings him joy. That's called "work" or at least that's what I'll call it. It's no accident that he's become who he is; he's worked his ass off for every bit of it.
~~~~~
I'm like those above, music in the clubs is where I'll go, if/when I go at all -- you swear when you move here to Austin that "No way, nunh-unh, I'll never take it for granted." But nobody who lives at Disneyworld goes on the rides, people who work in the finest chocolate factories don't eat it every day. I'm like "Oh yeah, world class spectacular shows here tonight; hmmm, think I'm going to stay in and read." Times I've gone to huge shows it always hit or miss, I don't chase it down but life being what it is sometimes nice things just happen, like a butterfly landing on my hand. Have you ever had a beautiful moth or butterfly close and reach your hand out and it lands on you? I have. Costs nothing, pays great. Marcus Aurelius: Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny. For what could more aptly fit your needs?
I'm glad that those of you who are in Springsteens thrall and able to make his shows have had that woven into the pattern of your destiny. You're living right.
posted by dancestoblue at 11:25 AM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure he ever really knew what it meant to work for a living.
Umm...I know a couple of touring musicians and crew, some in groups you might have heard of. I hope I never have to work as hard as they do.
posted by kjs3 at 11:28 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Umm...I know a couple of touring musicians and crew, some in groups you might have heard of. I hope I never have to work as hard as they do.
posted by kjs3 at 11:28 AM on February 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think that when many people say "work for a living" they mean "worry about money and being homeless, without decent health care, or knowing that your kids can't expect a middle-class life because their schools are terrible and you can't do anything about it."
posted by amtho at 12:31 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 12:31 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, and as a neighbor, Springsteen may not live like that but he definitely knows people who do, so he's not that out of touch. I mean, this is why one of his biggest charities is food banks.
posted by Miko at 12:43 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 12:43 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just saw this today -- AMC is getting into the different charges for different seats act [Variety]. How long before they start doing dynamic pricing?
I used to think of going to the movies as one of the most democratic things. You all paid the same price, and the seat you got depended on your commitment to being in a line or whatever. Once they started selling reserved seats, I felt like something had been lost that diminished my experience.
posted by hippybear at 12:52 PM on February 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I used to think of going to the movies as one of the most democratic things. You all paid the same price, and the seat you got depended on your commitment to being in a line or whatever. Once they started selling reserved seats, I felt like something had been lost that diminished my experience.
posted by hippybear at 12:52 PM on February 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, about "dynamic pricing"... when people do this with food or fuel it's called "price gouging" and can be prosecuted.
posted by hippybear at 12:53 PM on February 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 12:53 PM on February 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think that when many people say "work for a living" they mean "worry about money and being homeless, without decent health care, or knowing that your kids can't expect a middle-class life because their schools are terrible and you can't do anything about it."
And often, "work for others, under their management and at their pleasure, doing work that doesn't actually fulfill you or let you express yourself or live your dream or give you joy."
I mean, when is a fan entitled to demand anything, really, from an artist? It's a question that has come up in culture that I have paid attention to, namely the book form of A Song of Ice and Fire.
I think there's a world of difference between saying "these prices aren't fair, and it's disappointing that you, a wealthy person who doesn't actually need a penny more of income in your entire life, don't care about making them more fair for people who are less outrageously lucky" and saying "hey artist, force your brain to produce more, faster".
Honestly, I feel like we're all absolutely, completely, way more than entitled to say "stop gouging people less rich than you." It should be a religious commandment. Whether it's to Springsteen, or Elon "alas I don't have quite enough billions to treat people well" Musk, or all the executives "forced" to lay people off so that they and their shareholders' net worth doesn't shrink to slightly fewer millions or billions, or companies like "larger than many countries' GDP" Apple that simply can't afford to manufacture its products in non-sweatshop companies in non-genocidal countries, or frankly even the wealthy people I've worked for who've haggled and pinched to not pay me the low wages I asked for, because their ability to afford constant luxuries is that much more important than my ability to pay cheap rent. Extreme economic inequality is some bullshit, and maybe it's hard to draw the line as to exactly what level of inequality is extreme or fair -- but I wish we were all complaining about it way more. It's right to feel entitled to not be gouged.
posted by trig at 1:28 PM on February 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
And often, "work for others, under their management and at their pleasure, doing work that doesn't actually fulfill you or let you express yourself or live your dream or give you joy."
I mean, when is a fan entitled to demand anything, really, from an artist? It's a question that has come up in culture that I have paid attention to, namely the book form of A Song of Ice and Fire.
I think there's a world of difference between saying "these prices aren't fair, and it's disappointing that you, a wealthy person who doesn't actually need a penny more of income in your entire life, don't care about making them more fair for people who are less outrageously lucky" and saying "hey artist, force your brain to produce more, faster".
Honestly, I feel like we're all absolutely, completely, way more than entitled to say "stop gouging people less rich than you." It should be a religious commandment. Whether it's to Springsteen, or Elon "alas I don't have quite enough billions to treat people well" Musk, or all the executives "forced" to lay people off so that they and their shareholders' net worth doesn't shrink to slightly fewer millions or billions, or companies like "larger than many countries' GDP" Apple that simply can't afford to manufacture its products in non-sweatshop companies in non-genocidal countries, or frankly even the wealthy people I've worked for who've haggled and pinched to not pay me the low wages I asked for, because their ability to afford constant luxuries is that much more important than my ability to pay cheap rent. Extreme economic inequality is some bullshit, and maybe it's hard to draw the line as to exactly what level of inequality is extreme or fair -- but I wish we were all complaining about it way more. It's right to feel entitled to not be gouged.
posted by trig at 1:28 PM on February 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I think I paid two tickets to Springsteen on broadway and they were 175 total. That is an absolute steal: the dynamics are different for touring vs in residence.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:56 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:56 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Five thousand dollars a ticket?
Sometimes I feel so weak I just want to explode.
posted by freakazoid at 3:57 PM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sometimes I feel so weak I just want to explode.
posted by freakazoid at 3:57 PM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Huh, you got lucky with those Broadway tickets. Those were also going in the thousands.
posted by Miko at 4:15 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 4:15 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah just checked; they were $75-850 with a very limited number at $75, but as soon as they sold out they were getting resold for thousands. My SIL and her friend went and paid $450 each.
posted by Miko at 4:16 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 4:16 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Elon Musk's net worth is 285 times Bruce Springsteen's net worth. The bulk of Springsteen's net worth came from the sale of his catalog rights in 2021.
posted by Miko at 4:21 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 4:21 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
A few disconnected thoughts.
The Backstreets crowd has a legitimate complaint. Going back to the 70s, Bruce promised and (for many fans) delivered a transcendent concert experience that was as much religion as it was entertainment. For these folks, Bruce’s decision to charge market price feels like a betrayal. Like if your church started charging admission or if your soulmate asked for a prenup.
Someone mentioned this above, but Bruce and Patty are the only members of the touring band who are mega rich. And everyone in the band is getting older. It’s one thing for the Springsteens to decide that they personally are ok with charging below market prices, but it’s another to make that decision for everyone else in the band.
Again, someone else mentioned this above, but one reason the tickets are so high is that there are more casual fans who can afford the higher prices. For Seattle, there’s only one set of 4 tickets current available for less than $400 and the mean appears to be maybe $700. In less popular tours he wouldn’t even sell out the Tacoma Dome.
The high prices suck, but I don’t hold it against the Springsteens. The amount of hope and hope they’ve given people is literally priceless.
posted by lumpy at 4:49 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Backstreets crowd has a legitimate complaint. Going back to the 70s, Bruce promised and (for many fans) delivered a transcendent concert experience that was as much religion as it was entertainment. For these folks, Bruce’s decision to charge market price feels like a betrayal. Like if your church started charging admission or if your soulmate asked for a prenup.
Someone mentioned this above, but Bruce and Patty are the only members of the touring band who are mega rich. And everyone in the band is getting older. It’s one thing for the Springsteens to decide that they personally are ok with charging below market prices, but it’s another to make that decision for everyone else in the band.
Again, someone else mentioned this above, but one reason the tickets are so high is that there are more casual fans who can afford the higher prices. For Seattle, there’s only one set of 4 tickets current available for less than $400 and the mean appears to be maybe $700. In less popular tours he wouldn’t even sell out the Tacoma Dome.
The high prices suck, but I don’t hold it against the Springsteens. The amount of hope and hope they’ve given people is literally priceless.
posted by lumpy at 4:49 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
The high prices suck, but I don’t hold it against the Springsteens.
No, this is all Ticketbastard/LiveNation's fault. Blame them, and blame them again, and continue to blame them louder and louder until their monopoly is disbanded like Bell Telephone several decades ago.
I don't know how many here remember getting a booklet with your phone bill that had charts listing the distance you were calling and the time of day and how much it was going to cost you to make that call. Listed in price per minute. That's what a monopoly does. That's what Ticketbastard is doing.
posted by hippybear at 4:59 PM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
No, this is all Ticketbastard/LiveNation's fault. Blame them, and blame them again, and continue to blame them louder and louder until their monopoly is disbanded like Bell Telephone several decades ago.
I don't know how many here remember getting a booklet with your phone bill that had charts listing the distance you were calling and the time of day and how much it was going to cost you to make that call. Listed in price per minute. That's what a monopoly does. That's what Ticketbastard is doing.
posted by hippybear at 4:59 PM on February 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Elon Musk's net worth is 285 times Bruce Springsteen's net worth.
Not sure if this is a reply to my comment, but: at their level, does it matter?
Bruce and Patty are the only members of the touring band who are mega rich. And everyone in the band is getting older. It’s one thing for the Springsteens to decide that they personally are ok with charging below market prices, but it’s another to make that decision for everyone else in the band.
The thing is, if your employees are orders of magnitude less wealthy than you, then that in itself is a decision that you've made for them. You could do what Springsteen is doing, and raise prices on customers in order to (one hopes) pay your employees more, while sparing yourself from taking home any less. Or you could say, I have silly, astronomical, obscene amounts of money; I could not gouge anybody, pay everyone who works for me a few millions for this tour, and - even if I have to dip into my pocket for that last part - still experience no appreciable difference to my life. Whatsoever.
Neither Springsteen nor the people at the top of Ticketmaster actually need to aggressively maximize prices; they're doing it because they can. Do they share equally with their employees? Nah. Should they? That's a matter of opinion; my opinion is that once you've reached a certain point of wealth it's obscene not to.
I guess I just think it's a problem that we so easily feel financial sympathy for people whose financial reality is on a totally different planet. I'd rather direct that sympathy towards the rest of us still living on this one.
posted by trig at 5:50 PM on February 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Not sure if this is a reply to my comment, but: at their level, does it matter?
Bruce and Patty are the only members of the touring band who are mega rich. And everyone in the band is getting older. It’s one thing for the Springsteens to decide that they personally are ok with charging below market prices, but it’s another to make that decision for everyone else in the band.
The thing is, if your employees are orders of magnitude less wealthy than you, then that in itself is a decision that you've made for them. You could do what Springsteen is doing, and raise prices on customers in order to (one hopes) pay your employees more, while sparing yourself from taking home any less. Or you could say, I have silly, astronomical, obscene amounts of money; I could not gouge anybody, pay everyone who works for me a few millions for this tour, and - even if I have to dip into my pocket for that last part - still experience no appreciable difference to my life. Whatsoever.
Neither Springsteen nor the people at the top of Ticketmaster actually need to aggressively maximize prices; they're doing it because they can. Do they share equally with their employees? Nah. Should they? That's a matter of opinion; my opinion is that once you've reached a certain point of wealth it's obscene not to.
I guess I just think it's a problem that we so easily feel financial sympathy for people whose financial reality is on a totally different planet. I'd rather direct that sympathy towards the rest of us still living on this one.
posted by trig at 5:50 PM on February 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ok.
posted by lumpy at 6:17 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by lumpy at 6:17 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
A false equivalence to be sure; but I wonder if it would have any effect if someone were to say to him, in regards to the Ticketmaster/LiveNation collaboration...
"So, Bruce. Looks like you are going to play Sun City."
posted by bartleby at 6:34 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
"So, Bruce. Looks like you are going to play Sun City."
posted by bartleby at 6:34 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
but: at their level, does it matter?
I think it’s a numeracy question to ask whether they are at the same level. We’re talking about orders of magnitude:
Sure: Bruce could pay everyone even more. He already pays them extremely well: I I guess I don’t expect him to pay them out of the wealth he has from the sale of his songwriting; but instead out of the wealth they earn collectively from touring and recording together. It’s hard to imagine their financial prospects being better in the absence of the opportunity to be in the E Street Band?
posted by Miko at 8:39 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it’s a numeracy question to ask whether they are at the same level. We’re talking about orders of magnitude:
Sure: Bruce could pay everyone even more. He already pays them extremely well: I I guess I don’t expect him to pay them out of the wealth he has from the sale of his songwriting; but instead out of the wealth they earn collectively from touring and recording together. It’s hard to imagine their financial prospects being better in the absence of the opportunity to be in the E Street Band?
posted by Miko at 8:39 PM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Does anyone realize half the show will be covers from the latest album, and the other half will be the biggest hits, with maybe an obscure bone or two thrown for the hardcore fans? In a year I can see a couple of dozen local acts with a drink or two for the price of two of those tickets.
posted by morspin at 10:25 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by morspin at 10:25 PM on February 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ticketmaster is a monopoly that extorts customers and like most monopolies the reason they haven't been broken up yet is they're laser focused on pleasing the people that could end their cosy racket.
They donate heavily to politicians, they keep large venues happy by paying them well and providing a constant stream of high value events, and they do whatever big acts like Bruce Springsteen want.
If Bruce asked Ticketmaster to charge minimal fees and make tickets non-transferrable except at face value via his official site they'd comply instantly. They'd do it because if he decided to play non-ticketmaster exclusive venues (there are still a few), his fans would follow and the publicity would be awful.
The reason he hasn't asked Ticketmaster to stop squeezing his fans is he gets most of the money and they get most of the hate.
posted by zymil at 10:31 PM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
They donate heavily to politicians, they keep large venues happy by paying them well and providing a constant stream of high value events, and they do whatever big acts like Bruce Springsteen want.
If Bruce asked Ticketmaster to charge minimal fees and make tickets non-transferrable except at face value via his official site they'd comply instantly. They'd do it because if he decided to play non-ticketmaster exclusive venues (there are still a few), his fans would follow and the publicity would be awful.
The reason he hasn't asked Ticketmaster to stop squeezing his fans is he gets most of the money and they get most of the hate.
posted by zymil at 10:31 PM on February 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ticketmaster is a monopoly that extorts customers and like most monopolies the reason they haven't been broken up yet is they're laser focused on pleasing the people that could end their cosy racket.
Didn't we already cover this a few weeks ago, with Garth Brooks? Just play multiple shows in the same location until the demand is met. Easier on the band, easier on everyone's pocketbook, easier on the location. They could do that, they just don't want to.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:11 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Didn't we already cover this a few weeks ago, with Garth Brooks? Just play multiple shows in the same location until the demand is met. Easier on the band, easier on everyone's pocketbook, easier on the location. They could do that, they just don't want to.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:11 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Does anyone realize half the show will be covers from the latest album
So far it's only been a couple from the newest album and the rest from the 50-year back catalog. He is not touring to promote records.
posted by Miko at 8:17 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
So far it's only been a couple from the newest album and the rest from the 50-year back catalog. He is not touring to promote records.
posted by Miko at 8:17 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
They'd do it because if he decided to play non-ticketmaster exclusive venues (there are still a few), his fans would follow and the publicity would be awful.
That didn't help Pearl Jam. I think you overestimate the power of any single artist, no matter how popular.
posted by tavella at 10:47 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
That didn't help Pearl Jam. I think you overestimate the power of any single artist, no matter how popular.
posted by tavella at 10:47 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not only did that not help Pearl Jam (they never finished that tour), Ticketbastard has consolidated and expanded its reach and with merging with LiveNation is vertically integrated to the point that big acts (Madonna, U2) sign contracts with them to handle nearly every aspect of their tours, from booking to merchandising to local crew hiring.
Spokane remains a TM free zone, but they have their own ticketing thing going on with TicketsWest and the Red Lion hotel and venue management chain. And TM's lack of presence here is one of the reasons we don't get a lot of tours here that might otherwise play a similar sized city that has TM venues.
posted by hippybear at 11:36 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Spokane remains a TM free zone, but they have their own ticketing thing going on with TicketsWest and the Red Lion hotel and venue management chain. And TM's lack of presence here is one of the reasons we don't get a lot of tours here that might otherwise play a similar sized city that has TM venues.
posted by hippybear at 11:36 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Didn't we already cover this a few weeks ago, with Garth Brooks? Just play multiple shows in the same location until the demand is met.
See also The Clash at NYCs Bond's Casino in 1981. Seventeen straight nights, I think it was.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:13 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
See also The Clash at NYCs Bond's Casino in 1981. Seventeen straight nights, I think it was.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:13 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Garth Brooks--at the height of his Garth-y-ness in did five nights in Houston at what was The Summit --> Then Compaq Center --> Now Joel Olsteen's soulless church.
Around '96-ish?
I went to one. (The fourth night, I think.)
I'm not sure why he's coming up but I can tell you that I've never heard a louder crowd. Just... shrieking at the level I could feel and worry about a resonance cascade through my shoes.
It was a great show, though.
posted by Cyrano at 4:07 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Around '96-ish?
I went to one. (The fourth night, I think.)
I'm not sure why he's coming up but I can tell you that I've never heard a louder crowd. Just... shrieking at the level I could feel and worry about a resonance cascade through my shoes.
It was a great show, though.
posted by Cyrano at 4:07 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
The only answer to this situation is large-scale redistribution.
“And I pray, oh my god how I pray, I pray every single day for a large-scale redistribution.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:55 AM on February 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
“And I pray, oh my god how I pray, I pray every single day for a large-scale redistribution.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:55 AM on February 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just learned about BruceFunds, which helps people get tickets.
posted by Miko at 12:35 PM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Miko at 12:35 PM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Didn't we already cover this a few weeks ago, with Garth Brooks? Just play multiple shows in the same location until the demand is met.
This is actually how you meet demand and keep (effective) ticket prices low, but at his (and his band's) age it's just a non-starter for the Boss.
For some perspective during the 99/00 reunion tour they played 25 shows in the NYC/NJ market and I believe sold out every single one. If wikipedia's numbers are to be believed that's nearly 500,000 seats. In one market (admittedly his biggest one)! And not even considering the fans who might travel to Philly or Hartford or or or (yes I have flown across the country to see him …)
Obviously that was a unique tour in many ways, and it was 20+ years ago, but I think it helps put these shows in some perspective: he cannot play enough to satisfy demand. There's no way!
Does anyone realize half the show will be covers from the latest album
Yeah it's helpful to know that the tour has started and setlists are available, so you can see that this isn't actually true. Praying "outlaw pete" doesn't make an appearance … but otherwise I think these will be top BS&tESB shows.
--
As for Backstreets closing, that's very sad but I'm glad they're taking an honest stand. I do think however that the sentiment expressed in their editorial of "these tickets aren't going to the fans" is off – sure there are going to be some rich folks who only marginally care about bruce who will grab $2,000 tickets, but this was always true with the secondary market. But by and large I think that the folks who do end up shelling out a ton of money for tickets are ALSO Springsteen fans. I definitely agree that these should be more open to folks who aren't rich, but there's no switch here where it used to be "real" fans and now it's "fake" fans. What is true is it used to be "possibly open to middle class folks if you play your cards right" to "way less open to middle class folks if you play your cards right". They're skirting around (maybe not intentionally) a class analysis here and imo that should be front and center.
---
Also, Miko, I signed up for TicketDrones for a few venues but have only got one call in the months since and it didn't pan out for me! Has it been working better for you?
posted by wemayfreeze at 12:39 PM on February 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is actually how you meet demand and keep (effective) ticket prices low, but at his (and his band's) age it's just a non-starter for the Boss.
For some perspective during the 99/00 reunion tour they played 25 shows in the NYC/NJ market and I believe sold out every single one. If wikipedia's numbers are to be believed that's nearly 500,000 seats. In one market (admittedly his biggest one)! And not even considering the fans who might travel to Philly or Hartford or or or (yes I have flown across the country to see him …)
Obviously that was a unique tour in many ways, and it was 20+ years ago, but I think it helps put these shows in some perspective: he cannot play enough to satisfy demand. There's no way!
Does anyone realize half the show will be covers from the latest album
Yeah it's helpful to know that the tour has started and setlists are available, so you can see that this isn't actually true. Praying "outlaw pete" doesn't make an appearance … but otherwise I think these will be top BS&tESB shows.
--
As for Backstreets closing, that's very sad but I'm glad they're taking an honest stand. I do think however that the sentiment expressed in their editorial of "these tickets aren't going to the fans" is off – sure there are going to be some rich folks who only marginally care about bruce who will grab $2,000 tickets, but this was always true with the secondary market. But by and large I think that the folks who do end up shelling out a ton of money for tickets are ALSO Springsteen fans. I definitely agree that these should be more open to folks who aren't rich, but there's no switch here where it used to be "real" fans and now it's "fake" fans. What is true is it used to be "possibly open to middle class folks if you play your cards right" to "way less open to middle class folks if you play your cards right". They're skirting around (maybe not intentionally) a class analysis here and imo that should be front and center.
---
Also, Miko, I signed up for TicketDrones for a few venues but have only got one call in the months since and it didn't pan out for me! Has it been working better for you?
posted by wemayfreeze at 12:39 PM on February 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
I haven't gotten any calls at all. It worked for me on the last tour really really well, so it's frustrating. I am not sure why this is the case. I just keep checking back for drops myself. Part of it might be that Drones works when fans let him know a drop has happened - maybe people are keeping it more to themselves now since prices have been so high?
posted by Miko at 12:43 PM on February 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 12:43 PM on February 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
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