Carol Kaye: "The Metronome has to Sound Like It's Grooving"
February 7, 2023 1:41 AM Subscribe
Legendary bass player Carol Kaye demonstrate how to play with a metronome. Interview with Carol Kaye, session musician, educator and writer. (The link goes to a moment 10 minutes into the interview but the whole video is worth watching.)
Session Musician Spotlight: Carol Kaye
“I never thought of myself as a woman at all. "I knew I was a woman because of the way men looked at me, but not as a guitar player. The guitar was my voice, so I used my guitar to play and make money with. I was born in 1935 and my parents were not extremely poor, but there were times that we didn’t have enough to eat. When you work on that basis, it changes everything.”
Session Musician Spotlight: Carol Kaye
“I never thought of myself as a woman at all. "I knew I was a woman because of the way men looked at me, but not as a guitar player. The guitar was my voice, so I used my guitar to play and make money with. I was born in 1935 and my parents were not extremely poor, but there were times that we didn’t have enough to eat. When you work on that basis, it changes everything.”
Jeez, I don't know why I never thought of practicing with the metronome as the off-beat! (Maybe it's because I don't have a metronome. I bet there are thousands of them in my city, sitting on top of pianos, quietly waiting for someone to use them...)
posted by kozad at 5:23 AM on February 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by kozad at 5:23 AM on February 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
Incredibly suave. How did I live without this? Thanks for posting this treasure!
posted by dmh at 6:04 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dmh at 6:04 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
"It took me two or three days to get in… and once I got locked in, my sense of time was IM-movable."
… days?!
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:46 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
… days?!
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:46 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's really insightful to think of the goal as to play so solid that the metronome sounds like its in your pocket.
And as kozad mentioned here but not but she glosses over, it requires some real skill to lock into the metronome when it's only playing the backbeats.
posted by lownote at 6:57 AM on February 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
And as kozad mentioned here but not but she glosses over, it requires some real skill to lock into the metronome when it's only playing the backbeats.
posted by lownote at 6:57 AM on February 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Carol Kaye: Rock's Most Prolific Session Musician
The Wrecking Crew
posted by Brian B. at 7:01 AM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Wrecking Crew
posted by Brian B. at 7:01 AM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
What a great video, sharing with my students.
(Maybe it's because I don't have a metronome. I bet there are thousands of them in my city, sitting on top of pianos, quietly waiting for someone to use them...)
(We mostly use electronic metronomes or metronome apps these days. Much more versatile than the old mechanical tickers.)
posted by LooseFilter at 7:19 AM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Maybe it's because I don't have a metronome. I bet there are thousands of them in my city, sitting on top of pianos, quietly waiting for someone to use them...)
(We mostly use electronic metronomes or metronome apps these days. Much more versatile than the old mechanical tickers.)
posted by LooseFilter at 7:19 AM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
That whole interview is crazy dense with useful information.
posted by Ayn Marx at 7:21 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Ayn Marx at 7:21 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
For drummers, I’ve even heard advice that you should practice with the metronome on 16th note offbeats to really improve your time.
posted by mubba at 8:13 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by mubba at 8:13 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I definitely need to practice more with a metronome, because I still have a really bad habit of rushing, and I've been playing bass and guitar for.... mumblemumble 35 years.
posted by tclark at 8:20 AM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tclark at 8:20 AM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
"But. You're rushing."
Heh. Been there, still working on it...
I was in a bluegrass band with someone who was originally a serious jazz player. He was insistent that we try locking in with the metronome on the 2 and the 4. It took a lot of try (and a lot of fail), but it made an incredible difference once we figured it out.
It took much, much, much longer than three days, let's put it that way.
There was a magical moment where, rehearsing as a band with the click -- amplified so we could hear it -- on the backbeat...I guess the best way to describe it was that I could "feel" the click "disappear" because we had finally (finally!) succeeded in keeping ourselves in the actual pocket (a crucial lesson for me, since on mandolin I'm the primary "chop" on the 2 and 4 in a string band/no drums context). Turns out that when it "feels" like I can't hear the click, I know I'm landing on it.
(Maybe it's because I don't have a metronome. I bet there are thousands of them in my city, sitting on top of pianos, quietly waiting for someone to use them...)
I've still got my 9-volt powered Seiko metronome that I've had for about 20 years. It has a punchy enough click through its built-in speaker to be heard over my mandolin or acoustic guitar on their own.
But there's tons of app versions of them out there, free and paid -- if you punch "metronome" into Google, the first thing you should see is an on-screen metronome app with a bpm slider and a play button.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:27 AM on February 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
Heh. Been there, still working on it...
I was in a bluegrass band with someone who was originally a serious jazz player. He was insistent that we try locking in with the metronome on the 2 and the 4. It took a lot of try (and a lot of fail), but it made an incredible difference once we figured it out.
It took much, much, much longer than three days, let's put it that way.
There was a magical moment where, rehearsing as a band with the click -- amplified so we could hear it -- on the backbeat...I guess the best way to describe it was that I could "feel" the click "disappear" because we had finally (finally!) succeeded in keeping ourselves in the actual pocket (a crucial lesson for me, since on mandolin I'm the primary "chop" on the 2 and 4 in a string band/no drums context). Turns out that when it "feels" like I can't hear the click, I know I'm landing on it.
(Maybe it's because I don't have a metronome. I bet there are thousands of them in my city, sitting on top of pianos, quietly waiting for someone to use them...)
I've still got my 9-volt powered Seiko metronome that I've had for about 20 years. It has a punchy enough click through its built-in speaker to be heard over my mandolin or acoustic guitar on their own.
But there's tons of app versions of them out there, free and paid -- if you punch "metronome" into Google, the first thing you should see is an on-screen metronome app with a bpm slider and a play button.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:27 AM on February 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
Carol Kaye is amazing, and this completely broke my brain. I have always viewed the metronome as a relentless taskmaster, necessary, but unpleasant. The idea that the metronome should feel like it's grooving, and that if it isn't, that means you're not playing well, is a big WHOA moment.
Back to the old drawing board!
Also, she is counting with the metronome own the AND beats, which is never tried... Very cool!
posted by TheCoug at 8:29 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Back to the old drawing board!
Also, she is counting with the metronome own the AND beats, which is never tried... Very cool!
posted by TheCoug at 8:29 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have always viewed the metronome as a relentless taskmaster, necessary, but unpleasant.
It's kind of like having someone yelling "turn down the suck!" at you in perfect time. Unpleasant but spot-on criticism.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:35 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's kind of like having someone yelling "turn down the suck!" at you in perfect time. Unpleasant but spot-on criticism.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:35 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
FWIW, playing off-beats on the metronome is a common practice, as are other challenges like just one tick per bar. It's about gradually weaning your dependence on the metronome and developing a strong internal clock.
posted by Piso Mojado at 9:09 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Piso Mojado at 9:09 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
A related trick for afro-latin music is to have your metronome play the clave pattern instead of ticks. It requires a more sophisticated metronome that lets you input patterns, but it is sooooo helpful. I also had a teacher tell me that I should be able to play my lines while tapping my feet to clave -- I'm still working on that one.
Another practice crutch I like with more sophisticated metronomes is to write a 4 or 8 bar pattern of offbeats + a downbeat on the first measure. A lot of jazz standards are in 4 or 8 bar phrases so this keeps you honest on when you should get to the next section.
posted by getao at 11:03 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Another practice crutch I like with more sophisticated metronomes is to write a 4 or 8 bar pattern of offbeats + a downbeat on the first measure. A lot of jazz standards are in 4 or 8 bar phrases so this keeps you honest on when you should get to the next section.
posted by getao at 11:03 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Wow, she made the metronme swing. That was incredible.
posted by zzazazz at 11:20 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by zzazazz at 11:20 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Of all the incredible surprises I learned about in the Wrecking Crew doc, she was the best of all. I have a terrible sense of time and I sit in awe of her.
Excellent post, thank you.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:06 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Excellent post, thank you.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:06 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have restored a few of those old wooden obelisk metronomes, I have a nice one that will add 1-3 bells the beat for different patterns. I like the mechanical ones since toy can visually match the beat also. With bells on!.
posted by boilermonster at 3:16 PM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by boilermonster at 3:16 PM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Okay, I thought I knew about Carol Kaye, but I'm watching her rip bebop lines on an Ibanez guitar and now I know that I knew nothing.
posted by swift at 5:12 PM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by swift at 5:12 PM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
god this is so cool
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:25 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:25 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Her subscription series instructional videos are useful performance tools.
Her advice/tips just in this video alone are useful for any musician.
posted by ovvl at 7:20 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Her advice/tips just in this video alone are useful for any musician.
posted by ovvl at 7:20 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thank you for sharing this, I am completely inspired. She is a vast library of music history with an amazing recall. The way she shifts in and out of riffs, explaining what she's doing as she goes is captivating.
posted by oxisos at 9:50 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by oxisos at 9:50 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I definitely need to practice more with a metronome, because I still have a really bad habit of rushing, and I've been playing bass and guitar for.... mumblemumble 35 years.
Very much the same here, quite possibly even down to the year.
One thing that did really help my timing was playing the leaderboard mode on Rocksmith as it lets you know if you are pushing/pulling the beat. Turns out while I've never been so great at doing it consciously, with a visual indicator my subconscious can actually Do The Thing all by itself. Ditto just having a visual time indicator in general, TBH been tempted to get an old mechanical metronome just for that.
Admittedly the majority of the improvement seemed to come from switching to playing (for fingerstyle anyway) elbow up and wrist straight, rather than forearm on the top of the bass and hand/wrist hooked over -- though that's probably just something that worked for me as there's plenty of great players do the latter.
posted by Buntix at 1:40 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Very much the same here, quite possibly even down to the year.
One thing that did really help my timing was playing the leaderboard mode on Rocksmith as it lets you know if you are pushing/pulling the beat. Turns out while I've never been so great at doing it consciously, with a visual indicator my subconscious can actually Do The Thing all by itself. Ditto just having a visual time indicator in general, TBH been tempted to get an old mechanical metronome just for that.
Admittedly the majority of the improvement seemed to come from switching to playing (for fingerstyle anyway) elbow up and wrist straight, rather than forearm on the top of the bass and hand/wrist hooked over -- though that's probably just something that worked for me as there's plenty of great players do the latter.
posted by Buntix at 1:40 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Buntix, the iThing app “Dr. Betotte” has a mode where it shows an animated old style metronome, with swinging arm.
I don’t use that feature. I did just check it out and for me it “makes sense” at tempi up to, say 140 bpm. I’m working up a piece with long sections at 220bpm and the visual confuses me.
On topic: Carol Kaye is a legend, a trailblazer, and an endless fount of knowledge about bass playing and session playing.
posted by Warren Terra at 2:10 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t use that feature. I did just check it out and for me it “makes sense” at tempi up to, say 140 bpm. I’m working up a piece with long sections at 220bpm and the visual confuses me.
On topic: Carol Kaye is a legend, a trailblazer, and an endless fount of knowledge about bass playing and session playing.
posted by Warren Terra at 2:10 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I consider the metronome to be a friend, one who challenges you to be your best.
Haven't watched this video yet because I had a youtube problem yesterday and am busy today, but am looking forward to it!
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:29 AM on February 8, 2023
Haven't watched this video yet because I had a youtube problem yesterday and am busy today, but am looking forward to it!
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:29 AM on February 8, 2023
Hadn't watched from the start before, and still only 1.5 mins in, but I have a question and a comment:
Where can I get a $10 Dobro knock-off?
Went for guitar lessons with a man called Horence Hatchet?!
posted by Buntix at 12:58 PM on February 8, 2023
Where can I get a $10 Dobro knock-off?
Went for guitar lessons with a man called Horence Hatchet?!
posted by Buntix at 12:58 PM on February 8, 2023
This is amazing! The metronome really sounds like it’s swinging, and the way she spells out the latin foundation (not just a tinge) of rock n’ roll is so great.
posted by umbú at 11:51 AM on February 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by umbú at 11:51 AM on February 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
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There was a time back in the day when Carol was active on various bass-related mailing lists and forums, and she would sometimes pop up when the discussion turned to 60s music, technique, and historical info. Trolls would argue with her of course :)
posted by bgribble at 4:01 AM on February 7, 2023 [10 favorites]