Where does your food actually come from?
March 6, 2023 3:19 PM Subscribe
In a video post that veers dangerously close to actual journalism, YouTuber Eddy "Rainforest Cafe" Burback delves into The Deceptive World Of Ghost Kitchens [40m]. Beginning with something that seems like a normal-for-him food stunt, he uncovers a shady world of deceptive practices and safety violations of all sorts. It's good fun and surprisingly informative.
The whole crowding out local competition because one ghost kitchen is running 44 fronts is so unethical. It's like how so many products on Amazon are the same trash just with a different logo lazily pasted on by some dropping shipping outfit that will be gone next week.
posted by zenon at 9:13 PM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by zenon at 9:13 PM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I knew some of these facts already but this video does a great job of bringing a bunch of it all together and talking about the ramifications. Like somehow it hadn't occurred to me that because one kitchen can support an ungodly number of "restaurants" that all sell variations on the same thing (or literally just the same thing), that means they can dominate the listings on a delivery app without breaking a sweat. And:
It's like how so many products on Amazon are the same trash just with a different logo lazily pasted on by some dropping shipping outfit that will be gone next week.
Funnily enough, it reminded me of this piece by Jenny Odell about similar fuckery going on with Amazon Marketplace. It's from 2018, so a lot of the stuff going on in that article is borderline household knowledge now I think, and the state of the art fuckery is probably well beyond what she found at the time.
posted by chrominance at 9:38 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's like how so many products on Amazon are the same trash just with a different logo lazily pasted on by some dropping shipping outfit that will be gone next week.
Funnily enough, it reminded me of this piece by Jenny Odell about similar fuckery going on with Amazon Marketplace. It's from 2018, so a lot of the stuff going on in that article is borderline household knowledge now I think, and the state of the art fuckery is probably well beyond what she found at the time.
posted by chrominance at 9:38 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is a really good video. Thanks for posting.
posted by capnsue at 9:42 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by capnsue at 9:42 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
The rise of virtual brands from established restaurants like Denny”s fascinates me.
posted by jimw at 10:15 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jimw at 10:15 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the world of distributed systems, there's a thing called a Sybil attack. Wikipedia has a good summary:
A Sybil attack is a type of attack on a computer network service in which an attacker subverts the service's reputation system by creating a large number of pseudonymous identities and uses them to gain a disproportionately large influence.
This is precisely what these ghost kitchens are doing. It should be illegal, but it's not. Very unfortunate for the real restaurants trying to compete in good faith.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:37 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
A Sybil attack is a type of attack on a computer network service in which an attacker subverts the service's reputation system by creating a large number of pseudonymous identities and uses them to gain a disproportionately large influence.
This is precisely what these ghost kitchens are doing. It should be illegal, but it's not. Very unfortunate for the real restaurants trying to compete in good faith.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:37 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not really seeing an unethical angle here. The business model seems to me flawed when a virtual kitchen restaurant really starts competing with itself. Ultimately, restaurants survive by providing several things in addition to good food. If ghost kitchens can carve out a niche in the long term, then good for them.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:38 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by 2N2222 at 10:38 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
The unethical angle is that these kitchens spam out multiple brands selling the same menu items. Now, in the Doordash app, they have 10 entries for the same menu, but the mom and pop restaurant down the street still only has one entry. It's a way of diverting more business to themselves in a way that is deceptive and profoundly anti-competitive.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:41 PM on March 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:41 PM on March 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
My virtual kitchen has 1.6E12 restaurants, we will bury you.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:20 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 2:20 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I keep seeing a job ad for a software development position for a place that does the ghost kitchen stuff. I've put it on the "Not even if it came with a pony" pile.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:34 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:34 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Simple solution: If you have the privilege* of being able to pick your own food up at the restaurant, just do that. Don't use delivery apps because it's more convenient; that convenience comes at the price of ghost kitchens (and also the ongoing exploitation of gig workers, but that's another FPP). Maybe this means you forgo one restaurant across town in favor of one that's closer. Maybe this means getting a pizza around the corner instead of going to the restaurant down the road. Maybe this means you have to spend extra time walking/driving to get your food if you really want to get a meal from the restaurant. It's not the end of the world.
* Obviously not everyone can pick their own food up, and there should be a way for people who are unable to travel to still enjoy meals delivered to them. But as with grocery delivery during the early pandemic--if you're able, don't take up the delivery slots needed by people who aren't.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:59 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
* Obviously not everyone can pick their own food up, and there should be a way for people who are unable to travel to still enjoy meals delivered to them. But as with grocery delivery during the early pandemic--if you're able, don't take up the delivery slots needed by people who aren't.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 4:59 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
The unethical angle is that these kitchens spam out multiple brands selling the same menu items. Now, in the Doordash app, they have 10 entries for the same menu, but the mom and pop restaurant down the street still only has one entry. It's a way of diverting more business to themselves in a way that is deceptive and profoundly anti-competitive.
This isn't unethical. Unless you feel burgers should come from an actual brick and mortar business that only sells burgers, by gum. And it's about as anti competitive as opening up a real sit-down restaurant. Which is to say, it's competitive. Which is kind of the point of business.
It reminds me of the complaints existing restaurant owners have had about food trucks and street food vendors. Except restaurant owners aren't even making the complaints now, and may even be running ghost kitchens out of their existing facilities. Instead it's a youtube comedian who presumably wants us viewers to... do/feel something, I guess.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:23 AM on March 7, 2023
And it's about as anti competitive as opening up a real sit-down restaurant.
That isn't the same at all.
Imagine I have a sit-down restaurant. Then I open a "virtual restaurant" which uses the same kitchen and staff and the same menu and it's takeout only. Then I go around bragging to all my friends that I own *two* restaurants. Do I actually own two *restaurants*, or am I bullshitting them with my "virtual restaurant"?
This isn't unethical.
Maybe George Santos doesn't think it's unethical, but most people would think it's very unethical.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
That isn't the same at all.
Imagine I have a sit-down restaurant. Then I open a "virtual restaurant" which uses the same kitchen and staff and the same menu and it's takeout only. Then I go around bragging to all my friends that I own *two* restaurants. Do I actually own two *restaurants*, or am I bullshitting them with my "virtual restaurant"?
This isn't unethical.
Maybe George Santos doesn't think it's unethical, but most people would think it's very unethical.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Actually, this sounds exactly like the kind of thing Late Stage Capitalism would do.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:45 AM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:45 AM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Markets, to the extent that they work as promised, are meant to provide benefits by driving improvements in areas like price, selection and quality. If the incentives of a market are bringing the most innovation to deceptive branding, there's probably some room for undesirable outcomes.
posted by figurant at 7:24 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by figurant at 7:24 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Reminds me of a story on This American Life about a Holiday Inn creating a fake pizza place to fool guests into thinking they were ordering out when in actuality they were just calling room service. It had fake menus, a fake phone number, fake boxes, and the hotel employees "delivering" the pizza even used fake uniforms.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:28 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:28 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
An extra layer of fuckery in all this is local restaurants which use pre-prepared food from an off-site kitchen.
One day one of these ghost kitchens will place an order with a restaurant which is using fulfilment via the same ghost kitchen causing a recursive feedback loop.
posted by Lanark at 7:55 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
One day one of these ghost kitchens will place an order with a restaurant which is using fulfilment via the same ghost kitchen causing a recursive feedback loop.
posted by Lanark at 7:55 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Simple solution: If you have the privilege* of being able to pick your own food up at the restaurant, just do that.
I think he was picking up the food, for the purposes of this video 1) to avoid paying a ridiculous amount of money on delivery fees when he was already spending hundreds of dollars on food to make his point, but also 2) to truly illustrate his point that all these restaurants are coming out of the same kitchen by showing him going there to pick up the orders.
If you're ordering at home, chances are you aren't going to pick up your food like he did. But he was illustrating exactly what was going on. He was pulling back the curtain that is often created by the apps.
posted by hippybear at 8:27 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think he was picking up the food, for the purposes of this video 1) to avoid paying a ridiculous amount of money on delivery fees when he was already spending hundreds of dollars on food to make his point, but also 2) to truly illustrate his point that all these restaurants are coming out of the same kitchen by showing him going there to pick up the orders.
If you're ordering at home, chances are you aren't going to pick up your food like he did. But he was illustrating exactly what was going on. He was pulling back the curtain that is often created by the apps.
posted by hippybear at 8:27 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know, I'm not particularly that offended. I mean, in my opinion, it more shows that the limited number of entree options and that illusion of choice I have that 50 different actual sitdown restaurants near me will have a calamari appetizer that is cooked ever so slightly differently. It'd probably taste better if they were all cooked centrally, so that I'm not so dependent on the chef and other factors.
Since restaurants cluster anyways, I've always thought they should simply offer the menus of the places near them in addition to their own, and then general 'diner' restaurants which have huge menus, none of which is actually very good, could mostly be eliminated.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:34 AM on March 7, 2023
Since restaurants cluster anyways, I've always thought they should simply offer the menus of the places near them in addition to their own, and then general 'diner' restaurants which have huge menus, none of which is actually very good, could mostly be eliminated.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:34 AM on March 7, 2023
What you want is a food court with table service.
posted by hippybear at 8:36 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:36 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm curious if there is a parallel story about smaller restaurants serving international cuisines becoming more popular thanks to meal delivery. Korean, Colombian, Vietnamese, Filipino, Peruvian... there are so many restaurants that seem to be benefitting from folks who feel more emboldened to try new things at home than to try and figure it out on the fly eating out. Our food delivery history is a world tour these days. Anything to avoid eating the same stuff over and over. I doubt that is unusual at all.
You can (nearly) always tell the ghost kitchens. They pick one type of food, have six or eight versions of it ranging from basic to bro-tastic. When in doubt, you just run their address into Google. It's probably like an IHOP or something. That stuff sucks anyway.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:37 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can (nearly) always tell the ghost kitchens. They pick one type of food, have six or eight versions of it ranging from basic to bro-tastic. When in doubt, you just run their address into Google. It's probably like an IHOP or something. That stuff sucks anyway.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:37 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
What you want is a food court with table service.
I have multiple food halls (food courts not in mall, and not with the standard mall chains) and they are pretty awesome, though I think the size of the building is not really sustainable.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:39 AM on March 7, 2023
I have multiple food halls (food courts not in mall, and not with the standard mall chains) and they are pretty awesome, though I think the size of the building is not really sustainable.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:39 AM on March 7, 2023
Thanks for this article.
There's a ghost kitchen near my son's school called Ghost Kitchens and until last week I thought they were a kind of coop shared, able to be inspected, kitchen and I thought of all the great little places that crop up on Facebook if-you-know-how-to-find-them that have the best, although not the safest, empanadas or turon or whatever that you can pick up from behind the laundromat at 5:45 Thursdays.
But then my 12 year old heard he could get Mr. Beast burgers here and that let to me checking it out online and only getting Door Dash, which we've used like twice ever, and then I looked it up and learned that Mr. Beast Burgers are basically a virtual/ghost kitchen franchise as covered in the video, and then that traced back to Ghost Kitchens and then I realized it was serving a bunch of stuff like faux/premade Cheesecake Factory cheesecake. WTF.
Meanwhile it is located in a strip mall in Scarborough just like some of the best food ever, if you can unearth it thank you Suresh Doss.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:32 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's a ghost kitchen near my son's school called Ghost Kitchens and until last week I thought they were a kind of coop shared, able to be inspected, kitchen and I thought of all the great little places that crop up on Facebook if-you-know-how-to-find-them that have the best, although not the safest, empanadas or turon or whatever that you can pick up from behind the laundromat at 5:45 Thursdays.
But then my 12 year old heard he could get Mr. Beast burgers here and that let to me checking it out online and only getting Door Dash, which we've used like twice ever, and then I looked it up and learned that Mr. Beast Burgers are basically a virtual/ghost kitchen franchise as covered in the video, and then that traced back to Ghost Kitchens and then I realized it was serving a bunch of stuff like faux/premade Cheesecake Factory cheesecake. WTF.
Meanwhile it is located in a strip mall in Scarborough just like some of the best food ever, if you can unearth it thank you Suresh Doss.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:32 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
general 'diner' restaurants which have huge menus, none of which is actually very good
I'm so, so sorry that you've never been to a good diner. Good diners are transcendent.
posted by cooker girl at 10:16 AM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm so, so sorry that you've never been to a good diner. Good diners are transcendent.
posted by cooker girl at 10:16 AM on March 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
There’s one of these not far from me and when it first opened (right around the pandemic), there were a bunch of small, independent delivery-only restaurants in it, which I thought was very cool because I’m in Chicago where food trucks are basically impossible and starting a dine-in restaurant has such huge overhead. As far as I know it’s only chain restaurants now, though, and I don’t know what happened.
I’m not even against this, it is FINE, except we have the normal perversions like the shady/lack of advertising, Door Dash grift, and avoidance of health regulations. Come on.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:38 AM on March 7, 2023
I’m not even against this, it is FINE, except we have the normal perversions like the shady/lack of advertising, Door Dash grift, and avoidance of health regulations. Come on.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:38 AM on March 7, 2023
faux/premade Cheesecake Factory cheesecake. WTF
We have had one for awhile near us in London ON - but, like all "restaurants" that primarily get supplied by SYSCO and then re-heat frozen entrees, I refuse to eat from them. The actual "Cheesecake Factory" restaurant chain is a prime example - you know that it is a "frozen food" place, if the menu is overly large. (Another hint is getting "Key Lime Pie" anywhere, except the Florida Keys... that is one of SYSCO's hottest selling items...) *Edit - spelling of SYSCO
posted by rozcakj at 11:01 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
We have had one for awhile near us in London ON - but, like all "restaurants" that primarily get supplied by SYSCO and then re-heat frozen entrees, I refuse to eat from them. The actual "Cheesecake Factory" restaurant chain is a prime example - you know that it is a "frozen food" place, if the menu is overly large. (Another hint is getting "Key Lime Pie" anywhere, except the Florida Keys... that is one of SYSCO's hottest selling items...) *Edit - spelling of SYSCO
posted by rozcakj at 11:01 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was perusing the options on a delivery service last summer-ish and looking specifically at the places on the main street a block away me so if something appealed to me I could just call them up and walk over and get it. I noticed when looking that it listed a whole whackload of restaurants on the next block down from me that I had never heard of and that I knew didn't exist. Each of them sold a very specific type of food, like three different types of poutine or churros or milkshakes (are people ordering a single delivery milkshake driven to their door??). I checked the address and they were all located at this one restaurant that did exist.
I guess the business model wasn't great, because that restaurant has since closed and was replaced for like three months by something else, which also closed. There is now a verified family-run Mexican place in there so that's many fewer ghost kitchens and a place nearby I actually want to eat at.
posted by urbanlenny at 11:17 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess the business model wasn't great, because that restaurant has since closed and was replaced for like three months by something else, which also closed. There is now a verified family-run Mexican place in there so that's many fewer ghost kitchens and a place nearby I actually want to eat at.
posted by urbanlenny at 11:17 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
When in doubt, you just run their address into Google. It's probably like an IHOP or something.
You're right, of course, but man, aren't we all just fucking tired of having our guard up for scams all the damn time? Literally every interaction with the larger world, it seems, requires this ceaseless unending vigilance just to make sure you're not getting screwed out of every last cent. You can't use Google without having to wade through half a page of scammy/deceitful results, you can't turn on the TV without seeing some ad for scammy life insurance or Medicaid "Advantage" scam, you can't read a review without wondering who paid for it, you can't watch a YouTube video without being on guard for native advertising or whatever the fuck it's called. You've got to play the "I'm calling to cancel my service" game with Comcast each year to make sure you're not getting scammed by scammy new fees and price increases. Then there's watching out that your healthcare providers and health insurance carriers aren't scamming you with bogus charges and up-codings, etc etc etc.
Maybe I'm just super cranky but I'm so so so tired of being told, "just do this slightly annoying extra step or two (dozens of times a day every day for the rest of your life) to make sure you're not being taken for everything you've got, it's easy!"
posted by flamk at 11:34 AM on March 7, 2023 [29 favorites]
You're right, of course, but man, aren't we all just fucking tired of having our guard up for scams all the damn time? Literally every interaction with the larger world, it seems, requires this ceaseless unending vigilance just to make sure you're not getting screwed out of every last cent. You can't use Google without having to wade through half a page of scammy/deceitful results, you can't turn on the TV without seeing some ad for scammy life insurance or Medicaid "Advantage" scam, you can't read a review without wondering who paid for it, you can't watch a YouTube video without being on guard for native advertising or whatever the fuck it's called. You've got to play the "I'm calling to cancel my service" game with Comcast each year to make sure you're not getting scammed by scammy new fees and price increases. Then there's watching out that your healthcare providers and health insurance carriers aren't scamming you with bogus charges and up-codings, etc etc etc.
Maybe I'm just super cranky but I'm so so so tired of being told, "just do this slightly annoying extra step or two (dozens of times a day every day for the rest of your life) to make sure you're not being taken for everything you've got, it's easy!"
posted by flamk at 11:34 AM on March 7, 2023 [29 favorites]
Another hint is getting "Key Lime Pie" anywhere, except the Florida Keys... that is one of SYSCO's hottest selling items...
What? Key Lime Pie is named after lime trees imported from Asia and historically (when the desert was created) grown in the Florida Keys, but they are grown in multiple locations now, and citrus generally keeps well for easy transport. Not as easy as onions, but pretty easy. IE: key lime pie is not something you can only get in the Florida Keys or nearby if you want the real deal.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:39 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
What? Key Lime Pie is named after lime trees imported from Asia and historically (when the desert was created) grown in the Florida Keys, but they are grown in multiple locations now, and citrus generally keeps well for easy transport. Not as easy as onions, but pretty easy. IE: key lime pie is not something you can only get in the Florida Keys or nearby if you want the real deal.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:39 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
are people ordering a single delivery milkshake driven to their door??
Yes, yes they are. Not once but twice in the last six months has someone ordered a single milkshake doordashed to their table at my library. We live in the future!
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:09 PM on March 7, 2023
Yes, yes they are. Not once but twice in the last six months has someone ordered a single milkshake doordashed to their table at my library. We live in the future!
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:09 PM on March 7, 2023
We live in the future!
We laughed at kozmo.com but now the joke's on us.
posted by away for regrooving at 1:26 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
We laughed at kozmo.com but now the joke's on us.
posted by away for regrooving at 1:26 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have long fantasized about opening a restaurant named Sysco.
posted by Pembquist at 2:54 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Pembquist at 2:54 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
aren't we all just fucking tired of having our guard up for scams all the damn time?
You know, I agree with all of this in principle, but I also think about how people back in the day were just plain falling for the same scams. Like, all the fake health remedies and MLMs and shabby mail-order items filled with lead... and before that, all the way back into the industrial age and the invention of processed food, toxic dyes they knew about but told no one, mercury supplements, arsenic face powder, my god! They've been out to get us for two centuries at the bare minimum!
I suppose we should be thankful that the immediate medium, the internet, allows us to learn in near real time that the shit they're trying to foist on us is fake, toxic, poorly made, a scam. But as usual the sunlight doesn't do any actual disinfecting, it just says (once some tragedy tells it where to shine) "welp looks like you got some lead-based children's toys, there" and leaves the rest to us.
I'm not usually a "it's capitalism's fault!" type guy but the rise of that institution (not that feudalism was awesome) and the rise of these scams is striking. Caveat emptor, they say, how about caveat venditor if these sons of bitches are going to continue making money at literally any cost! Someone oughta do something, but I don't know where to start biting this planet-spanning elephant.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 5:25 PM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
You know, I agree with all of this in principle, but I also think about how people back in the day were just plain falling for the same scams. Like, all the fake health remedies and MLMs and shabby mail-order items filled with lead... and before that, all the way back into the industrial age and the invention of processed food, toxic dyes they knew about but told no one, mercury supplements, arsenic face powder, my god! They've been out to get us for two centuries at the bare minimum!
I suppose we should be thankful that the immediate medium, the internet, allows us to learn in near real time that the shit they're trying to foist on us is fake, toxic, poorly made, a scam. But as usual the sunlight doesn't do any actual disinfecting, it just says (once some tragedy tells it where to shine) "welp looks like you got some lead-based children's toys, there" and leaves the rest to us.
I'm not usually a "it's capitalism's fault!" type guy but the rise of that institution (not that feudalism was awesome) and the rise of these scams is striking. Caveat emptor, they say, how about caveat venditor if these sons of bitches are going to continue making money at literally any cost! Someone oughta do something, but I don't know where to start biting this planet-spanning elephant.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 5:25 PM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
key lime pie is not something you can only get in the Florida Keys or nearby if you want the real deal
It does depend on the restaurant - but I am willing to bet that the vast majority of chain restaurants offering Key Lime pie are not using locally sourced limes - or even local specialty bakeries... They are flash-defrosting frozen desserts, offloaded from the back of transport trailers...
posted by rozcakj at 5:59 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
It does depend on the restaurant - but I am willing to bet that the vast majority of chain restaurants offering Key Lime pie are not using locally sourced limes - or even local specialty bakeries... They are flash-defrosting frozen desserts, offloaded from the back of transport trailers...
posted by rozcakj at 5:59 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know where to start biting this planet-spanning elephant
When you do figure it out, you can probably order elephant from a ghost kitchen off of some 100 different menus all served out of the same address.
posted by hippybear at 7:50 PM on March 7, 2023
When you do figure it out, you can probably order elephant from a ghost kitchen off of some 100 different menus all served out of the same address.
posted by hippybear at 7:50 PM on March 7, 2023
I can pretty much guarantee you that nearly all the pastries and desserts you get in most restaurants that aren't known for being a bakery are NOT made in-house and are more likely to be mass produced than hand made.
I've only worked in two restaurant kitchens, but they were both from the "this is a good restaurant" list, and neither of them had any desserts that weren't bought in. This was eye-opening to me, sweet summer child that I was.
posted by hippybear at 7:52 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've only worked in two restaurant kitchens, but they were both from the "this is a good restaurant" list, and neither of them had any desserts that weren't bought in. This was eye-opening to me, sweet summer child that I was.
posted by hippybear at 7:52 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
This isn't unethical.
I dont think it unethical for multiple restaurants to share the same kitchen, given that they really are different restaurants.
I think the unethical part is when the same restaurant makes a bunch of fake ones that really lead back to the same one. In the analog world, that would be like having a billboard with restaurant advertisements and having 19 out of 20 be for the same place with different names, with the consumer unable to know it is the same restaurant in reality. You really only have advertisements for the two real ones and 18 fake ones.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:07 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I dont think it unethical for multiple restaurants to share the same kitchen, given that they really are different restaurants.
I think the unethical part is when the same restaurant makes a bunch of fake ones that really lead back to the same one. In the analog world, that would be like having a billboard with restaurant advertisements and having 19 out of 20 be for the same place with different names, with the consumer unable to know it is the same restaurant in reality. You really only have advertisements for the two real ones and 18 fake ones.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:07 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ghost kitchens are kinda interesting when I was working grave shift, as food is a bit scarce. I think one night, we discovered there were no less than two ghost kitchens in a trailer right across from our parking structure. However, they do not take direct orders... You have to go through the website, and then they have to assign a Doordash or Grubhub driver to it. And since the delivery is literally 20 yards away, nobody would take it. I have to walk up there and convince them that's my food and it's getting cold and I am VERY hungry. :D
posted by kschang at 9:12 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kschang at 9:12 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
but I am willing to bet that the vast majority of chain restaurants offering Key Lime pie are not using locally sourced limes - or even local specialty bakeries...
Well, citrus doesn't do well below about 32F, which excludes the majority of the US, so yeah, the limes are probably not locally sourced even at specialty bakeries. They are trying to breed cold hardy versions, but it doesn't really kick in until they are several years old (meaning expensive to initially purchase) and the best are only cold-hardy to about 20F, so not much progress has been made. It's too bad because other the cold hardiness, citrus tress are pretty hardy in terms of water use and pesticides.
They do ship well though, so you can probably buy Key limes at your local grocery store.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:52 AM on March 8, 2023
Well, citrus doesn't do well below about 32F, which excludes the majority of the US, so yeah, the limes are probably not locally sourced even at specialty bakeries. They are trying to breed cold hardy versions, but it doesn't really kick in until they are several years old (meaning expensive to initially purchase) and the best are only cold-hardy to about 20F, so not much progress has been made. It's too bad because other the cold hardiness, citrus tress are pretty hardy in terms of water use and pesticides.
They do ship well though, so you can probably buy Key limes at your local grocery store.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:52 AM on March 8, 2023
I had a single experience with Uber Eats and a ghost kitchen, and well, never again. I was gifted a $50 Uber Eats gift card, and used it for an order from Din Tai Fung. Didn't even order dumplings, just a noodle dish, steamed veggies, a stirfried meat and some rice. It was the most appalling takeout/takeaway of my life. It was definitely nothing like anything I've ever ordered in the restaurant. Gluey, gluggy, flavourless, and cold. Even a quick zap in the microwave did nothing for it. After a few incredulous bites, we tossed the whole lot. I left a review on the Uber app, but then really wanted to let the restaurant know how truly not up to standard this meal was. But when I started searching for the address listed for the restaurant by the Uber app, I discovered that it didn't seem to exist, and after searching the Din Tai Fung website, saw that there was no restaurant anywhere near the listed location. Finished me, both for Din Tai Fung and Uber Eats.
posted by amusebuche at 12:39 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by amusebuche at 12:39 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think he was picking up the food, for the purposes of this video 1) to avoid paying a ridiculous amount of money on delivery fees when he was already spending hundreds of dollars on food to make his point, but also 2) to truly illustrate his point that all these restaurants are coming out of the same kitchen by showing him going there to pick up the orders.
Not only did he pick up an order, but he also picked up nine sandwiches ordered from identical entries at nine different virtual restaurants at the same time, and they handed the (basically identical) food to him in a couple of bags with identical packaging. They didn't bother to pretend the food came from different places.
So essentially, one kitchen gets orders funneled to it by nine or so different storefronts. You may think you're choosing "Oh My Cod" over "Your Fish Is Our Command" from the app, but you're getting the same product regardless. And the local mom-and-pop has only one entry, easily overlooked against nine bogus ones.
posted by Gelatin at 1:15 PM on March 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not only did he pick up an order, but he also picked up nine sandwiches ordered from identical entries at nine different virtual restaurants at the same time, and they handed the (basically identical) food to him in a couple of bags with identical packaging. They didn't bother to pretend the food came from different places.
So essentially, one kitchen gets orders funneled to it by nine or so different storefronts. You may think you're choosing "Oh My Cod" over "Your Fish Is Our Command" from the app, but you're getting the same product regardless. And the local mom-and-pop has only one entry, easily overlooked against nine bogus ones.
posted by Gelatin at 1:15 PM on March 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Markets, to the extent that they work as promised, are meant to provide benefits by driving improvements in areas like price, selection and quality. If the incentives of a market are bringing the most innovation to deceptive branding, there's probably some room for undesirable outcomes.
Yeah. If vendors are competing to give me better and cheaper and different foods, that's groovy. If vendors are competing to make it more difficult for me to shop for what I want, that's perverse and should be eliminated.
I did a post about the parallel phenomenon for locksmiths (about 14 years ago).
posted by grobstein at 7:50 PM on March 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah. If vendors are competing to give me better and cheaper and different foods, that's groovy. If vendors are competing to make it more difficult for me to shop for what I want, that's perverse and should be eliminated.
I did a post about the parallel phenomenon for locksmiths (about 14 years ago).
posted by grobstein at 7:50 PM on March 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
…there were no less than two ghost kitchens in a trailer right across from our parking structure. However, they do not take direct orders... You have to go through the website, and then they have to assign a Doordash or Grubhub driver to it. And since the delivery is literally 20 yards away, nobody would take it. I have to walk up there and convince them that's my food and it's getting cold and I am VERY hungry.
I wonder if it would have been possible to sign up as a driver for one of those services, but not accept any orders except for your late night work meals. So you could have just gone over there and said “Hi! Kschang here, picking up an order for kschang.”
The side conversation about Key Lime pie is interesting, but as has already been pointed out, Key Lime pie can be made from scratch pretty much anywhere, just like apple pie. If you are a restaurant that defrosts your desserts, then that’s what you are. If you make pies from scratch, then you make pies from scratch. A more interesting example of food distribution is crab legs. For some reason almost every restaurant that serves seafood feels obligated to have them on their menu. In Denver that’s fine; none of their seafood is local (at least saltwater seafood). But even in coastal cities with an abundance of seafood fresh off the boat available, I see crab legs on the menu. They are from Alaska, people! The Discovery Channel told you that! They have been frozen and shipped thousands of miles just to be on the menu next to seafood that might have been in the ocean 24 hours ago.
posted by TedW at 1:55 PM on March 9, 2023
I wonder if it would have been possible to sign up as a driver for one of those services, but not accept any orders except for your late night work meals. So you could have just gone over there and said “Hi! Kschang here, picking up an order for kschang.”
The side conversation about Key Lime pie is interesting, but as has already been pointed out, Key Lime pie can be made from scratch pretty much anywhere, just like apple pie. If you are a restaurant that defrosts your desserts, then that’s what you are. If you make pies from scratch, then you make pies from scratch. A more interesting example of food distribution is crab legs. For some reason almost every restaurant that serves seafood feels obligated to have them on their menu. In Denver that’s fine; none of their seafood is local (at least saltwater seafood). But even in coastal cities with an abundance of seafood fresh off the boat available, I see crab legs on the menu. They are from Alaska, people! The Discovery Channel told you that! They have been frozen and shipped thousands of miles just to be on the menu next to seafood that might have been in the ocean 24 hours ago.
posted by TedW at 1:55 PM on March 9, 2023
If it wasn't unethical, then ghost kitchens would be up-front about their business model and point out their nine restaurant fronts all refer to the same kitchen. That they're trying to fool the consumer into thinking these are nine different places... that's unethical.
posted by Dez at 6:55 AM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Dez at 6:55 AM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
WSJ: Uber Eats to Take Down Thousands of Virtual Brands to Declutter the App; Company plans to stop allowing restaurants to list multiple brands with the same menu. Archive.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:15 PM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:15 PM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
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Though this is not necessarily fraud, it is certainly deceptive, and thus is yet another sample of why ordering anything from the internet could possibly be not what you think it is. As for food, you put it inside of you, and health and safety is really important. And as pointed out in the video, are these places even inspected? Actual restaurants can be sketchy, but they get caught eventually. These places? And these kitchens in what look like office buildings? There are loads of building requirements there, such as venting, grease traps, etc. If you mention food trucks, exploding or not, health inspectors just cringe. But it’s all about making a buck or three. Caveat emptor indeed…
posted by njohnson23 at 4:22 PM on March 6, 2023