“It’s easier to tell you what my mom didn’t post“
March 13, 2023 10:56 AM Subscribe
Influencer Parents and The Kids Who Had Their Childhood Made Into Content The first time she went viral, she was a toddler. When the family’s channel started to rake in the views, Claire says both her parents left their jobs because the revenue from the YouTube channel was enough to support the family and to land them a nicer house and new car. “That’s not fair that I have to support everyone,” she said. “I try not to be resentful but I kind of [am].” […] When Claire turns 18 and can move out on her own, she’s considering going no-contact with her parents. Once she doesn’t live with them anymore, she plans to speak out publicly about being the star of a YouTube channel. She’ll even use her real name. Claire wants people to know how her childhood was overshadowed by social media stardom that she didn’t choose. And she wants her parents to know: “nothing they do now is going to take back the years of work I had to put in.”
Some words from Wil Wheaton about this article:
About ten years ago, I did a YouTube thing for a friend of mine. I showed up at a space in Hollywood, and did some silly gaming stuff with them to help get their channel off the ground. They'd done the same for me with Tabletop, and I was happy to return the favor. As I've said many times, nobody gets their foot in the door without some help, no matter how hard they try to rewrite their origin story.
There were a TON of YouTubers there, most of whom I didn't recognize because I'm not in the demo. Most were twentysomethings, but there were a couple of teens, and maybe half a dozen younger kids who seemed to be having a pretty good time playing with toys and games. About halfway through the day, a mom who appeared to be around 27 or so brought her son over for a picture with me. He looked to be about 7. You know, the age I was when my dogshit parents ended my childhood and put me to work.
So this mom tells me that she's super excited to "get his channel going" and before I even knew what was happening, I heard this come out of my mouth: "He wants a channel? Or you want a channel? He only gets one chance to be a kid, and no kid should have to work at all, or perform if they don't want to." Then I looked at the kid, and I saw a VERY familiar face from about ... 1979. It's in the eyes and the way the shoulders slump. I looked back at the mom. "Don't take his childhood away from him." Then: "He only gets one childhood."
She looked shocked. This was clearly not something she had ever thought about, and certainly didn't expect to think about at this thing. I felt like she was seeing her child as a child for maybe the first time? I don't know. She was clearly uncomfortable, like nobody had ever spoken up on behalf of her child before.
"He loves it! He's always having fun!" She said, with the same fake enthusiasm and terrible lying I knew from my mother.
What I wanted to say to her was, "I hope this is a total failure for you. I hope you get zero views, get your own job, and support your kid being a kid." But instead, I looked at this sweet little boy and said, "You deserve to be a kid." Then I walked away before I caused a scene. I did not participate in his exploitation by posing for a photo that he didn't care about, and would be used by his mother for some kind of promotion.
I think about that kid from time to time. He's probably right around 18 or so, now, and I hope that his childhood wasn't anything like mine. I hope he's happy and living his best life. I hope his mom grew up and chose to be his mom, not his pimp, and that they have a loving and supportive family relationship.
So that all came back to me this morning when I saw this story from Teen Vogue, about Influencer Parents:
"Claire, whose name has been changed to protect her privacy, has never known a life that doesn’t include a camera being pointed in her direction. The first time she went viral, she was a toddler. When the family’s channel started to rake in the views, Claire says both her parents left their jobs because the revenue from the YouTube channel was enough to support the family and to land them a nicer house and new car. “That’s not fair that I have to support everyone,” she said. “I try not to be resentful but I kind of [am].” Once, she told her dad she didn’t want to do YouTube videos anymore and he told her they would have to move out of their house and her parents would have to go back to work, leaving no money for “nice things.”
"When the family is together, the YouTube channel is what they talk about. Claire says her father has told her he may be her father, but he’s also her boss. “It’s a lot of pressure,” she said. When Claire turns 18 and can move out on her own, she’s considering going no-contact with her parents. Once she doesn’t live with them anymore, she plans to speak out publicly about being the star of a YouTube channel. She’ll even use her real name. Claire wants people to know how her childhood was overshadowed by social media stardom that she didn’t choose. And she wants her parents to know: “nothing they do now is going to take back the years of work I had to put in."
Children deserve to be children. Children are not the property of their parents who can use and exploit them for their own gain. They are CHILDREN and they will spend the rest of their lives hurting because you stole that from them. Ask me how I know.
I see you, Claire, and I am so sorry for what they took from you. You did not deserve that, and you are enough. When you are of age, if you choose to hold them accountable, I have your back.
Some words from Wil Wheaton about this article:
About ten years ago, I did a YouTube thing for a friend of mine. I showed up at a space in Hollywood, and did some silly gaming stuff with them to help get their channel off the ground. They'd done the same for me with Tabletop, and I was happy to return the favor. As I've said many times, nobody gets their foot in the door without some help, no matter how hard they try to rewrite their origin story.
There were a TON of YouTubers there, most of whom I didn't recognize because I'm not in the demo. Most were twentysomethings, but there were a couple of teens, and maybe half a dozen younger kids who seemed to be having a pretty good time playing with toys and games. About halfway through the day, a mom who appeared to be around 27 or so brought her son over for a picture with me. He looked to be about 7. You know, the age I was when my dogshit parents ended my childhood and put me to work.
So this mom tells me that she's super excited to "get his channel going" and before I even knew what was happening, I heard this come out of my mouth: "He wants a channel? Or you want a channel? He only gets one chance to be a kid, and no kid should have to work at all, or perform if they don't want to." Then I looked at the kid, and I saw a VERY familiar face from about ... 1979. It's in the eyes and the way the shoulders slump. I looked back at the mom. "Don't take his childhood away from him." Then: "He only gets one childhood."
She looked shocked. This was clearly not something she had ever thought about, and certainly didn't expect to think about at this thing. I felt like she was seeing her child as a child for maybe the first time? I don't know. She was clearly uncomfortable, like nobody had ever spoken up on behalf of her child before.
"He loves it! He's always having fun!" She said, with the same fake enthusiasm and terrible lying I knew from my mother.
What I wanted to say to her was, "I hope this is a total failure for you. I hope you get zero views, get your own job, and support your kid being a kid." But instead, I looked at this sweet little boy and said, "You deserve to be a kid." Then I walked away before I caused a scene. I did not participate in his exploitation by posing for a photo that he didn't care about, and would be used by his mother for some kind of promotion.
I think about that kid from time to time. He's probably right around 18 or so, now, and I hope that his childhood wasn't anything like mine. I hope he's happy and living his best life. I hope his mom grew up and chose to be his mom, not his pimp, and that they have a loving and supportive family relationship.
So that all came back to me this morning when I saw this story from Teen Vogue, about Influencer Parents:
"Claire, whose name has been changed to protect her privacy, has never known a life that doesn’t include a camera being pointed in her direction. The first time she went viral, she was a toddler. When the family’s channel started to rake in the views, Claire says both her parents left their jobs because the revenue from the YouTube channel was enough to support the family and to land them a nicer house and new car. “That’s not fair that I have to support everyone,” she said. “I try not to be resentful but I kind of [am].” Once, she told her dad she didn’t want to do YouTube videos anymore and he told her they would have to move out of their house and her parents would have to go back to work, leaving no money for “nice things.”
"When the family is together, the YouTube channel is what they talk about. Claire says her father has told her he may be her father, but he’s also her boss. “It’s a lot of pressure,” she said. When Claire turns 18 and can move out on her own, she’s considering going no-contact with her parents. Once she doesn’t live with them anymore, she plans to speak out publicly about being the star of a YouTube channel. She’ll even use her real name. Claire wants people to know how her childhood was overshadowed by social media stardom that she didn’t choose. And she wants her parents to know: “nothing they do now is going to take back the years of work I had to put in."
Children deserve to be children. Children are not the property of their parents who can use and exploit them for their own gain. They are CHILDREN and they will spend the rest of their lives hurting because you stole that from them. Ask me how I know.
I see you, Claire, and I am so sorry for what they took from you. You did not deserve that, and you are enough. When you are of age, if you choose to hold them accountable, I have your back.
Saw this coming from a mile away the moment I learned about “mommy blogging” circa 2010. Putting your kid on a blog or YouTube channel is like putting them on reality TV. I don’t know why anyone ever thought this was a good idea.
posted by vanitas at 11:22 AM on March 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by vanitas at 11:22 AM on March 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
Legally the children are chattel. Morally they are a stewardship and a gift.
Don't make kids grist for the hustle culture. It's not that "children should be seen and not heard," but instead that kids should be allowed to grow up off-camera.
Yesterday I was reminded by the daughter of George & Kelly Anne Conway, who had it out with her parents on social media. That was just so, so bad.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:24 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Don't make kids grist for the hustle culture. It's not that "children should be seen and not heard," but instead that kids should be allowed to grow up off-camera.
Yesterday I was reminded by the daughter of George & Kelly Anne Conway, who had it out with her parents on social media. That was just so, so bad.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:24 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Legally the children are chattel.
I don't practice any law to do with children, but I don't think this is correct, and hasn't been the case for some time. Legally children can own property in their own right, and in many states 100% of a child's earnings belong, not to the parents, but to the child, with the parents as fiduciaries and trustees.
When my older daughter was an infant, people told me I should get her into acting or modeling. Why I would ever, ever want that for my child was, and is, a mystery to me.
posted by 1adam12 at 11:31 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't practice any law to do with children, but I don't think this is correct, and hasn't been the case for some time. Legally children can own property in their own right, and in many states 100% of a child's earnings belong, not to the parents, but to the child, with the parents as fiduciaries and trustees.
When my older daughter was an infant, people told me I should get her into acting or modeling. Why I would ever, ever want that for my child was, and is, a mystery to me.
posted by 1adam12 at 11:31 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Legally the children are chattel
I mean, I get where you're coming from but that is not true at all. Pets are legally considered chattel and objects; children are not. We actually have quite a few laws about how children should be treated!
posted by riotnrrd at 11:34 AM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I mean, I get where you're coming from but that is not true at all. Pets are legally considered chattel and objects; children are not. We actually have quite a few laws about how children should be treated!
posted by riotnrrd at 11:34 AM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Chattel from Cornell Law; chattel slavery from the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center.
And good for Wil.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:37 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
And good for Wil.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:37 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why are we struggling with children rights once again/still? Because people (Republican) deliberately tear them down of course
posted by Jacen at 11:42 AM on March 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 11:42 AM on March 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
Why are we having to reinvent child labor laws a hundred years later?
We actually have quite a few laws about how children should be treated!
You must mean we used to have some child labor laws, but we can fix that...
posted by BlueHorse at 11:42 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
We actually have quite a few laws about how children should be treated!
You must mean we used to have some child labor laws, but we can fix that...
posted by BlueHorse at 11:42 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Have not rtfa but reminds me of that family channel with several young blonde bio kids a few years back that decided to vlog adopting a child from China - that is, it really seemed like they decided to do it for the channel rather than I don't know, love and family? The child had developmental challenges and the whole thing ended so, so badly. Oh. Found it.
posted by Glinn at 11:45 AM on March 13, 2023
posted by Glinn at 11:45 AM on March 13, 2023
If I may suggest: being the last generation of people before digital everything got cheap and pervasive, set up burner accounts for your kids when they're small. Give them an alias they can have for their online lives, and explain to them that this is so, when they're old, should they choose, they can throw it away. Take baby pictures if you want, share baby pictures if you want, but explain to them what that means, and stop if they ever ask, and probably stop when they're eight or nine anyway.
posted by mhoye at 11:45 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 11:45 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I was a very performative kid - I loved to get dressed up and act out stuff. My mom told me that she asked me once when I was very little (maybe 3 or 4?) whether I would like to do theatre or commercials or something, and I said no, so she didn't look into it.
I have no memory of this at all. Instead, I remember being older and desperately wanting a part in the school play, and later majoring in drama in high school - and being super annoyed at my toddler self for not saying yes (and unhealthfully jealous of child actors around my age).
These accounts - especially from Wheaton, who I saw in many things - do make me wonder how I would have liked the actual life. I loved being on stage - and loved even more that I got to be someone else - and later I loved being in theatre and the few semi-professional roles I did. But I also liked lazing about, reading and watching too much tv (like way too much ST:TNG), and running around outside.
I think I would have hated being documented in my own life. I don't even like putting up pictures of myself in my Facebook account (followed by dozens of people - mostly my older relatives). I've only put up one photo of my child anywhere online, and that was to announce the birth. (And even now, I find myself eliding details). Being a performer means getting to be someone else; I would never want to have myself hanging out there.
posted by jb at 11:49 AM on March 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
I have no memory of this at all. Instead, I remember being older and desperately wanting a part in the school play, and later majoring in drama in high school - and being super annoyed at my toddler self for not saying yes (and unhealthfully jealous of child actors around my age).
These accounts - especially from Wheaton, who I saw in many things - do make me wonder how I would have liked the actual life. I loved being on stage - and loved even more that I got to be someone else - and later I loved being in theatre and the few semi-professional roles I did. But I also liked lazing about, reading and watching too much tv (like way too much ST:TNG), and running around outside.
I think I would have hated being documented in my own life. I don't even like putting up pictures of myself in my Facebook account (followed by dozens of people - mostly my older relatives). I've only put up one photo of my child anywhere online, and that was to announce the birth. (And even now, I find myself eliding details). Being a performer means getting to be someone else; I would never want to have myself hanging out there.
posted by jb at 11:49 AM on March 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
being the last generation of people before digital everything got cheap and pervasive, set up burner accounts for your kids when they're small.
I registered a real-name gmail for my infant, but that's for later job applications, etc. When they are old enough, they can pick a silly handle for playing on the the internet in the traditional way: the Wu Tang Clan name generator.
posted by jb at 11:52 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I registered a real-name gmail for my infant, but that's for later job applications, etc. When they are old enough, they can pick a silly handle for playing on the the internet in the traditional way: the Wu Tang Clan name generator.
posted by jb at 11:52 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Take baby pictures if you want, share baby pictures if you want, but explain to them what that means, and stop if they ever ask, and probably stop when they're eight or nine anyway.
I did this with my kids when they were small in the years before YouTube and Facebook (to share with family cross country, not for blogging/attention/profit) and I deeply, deeply regret it. At least some of those pictures are still discoverable. There was nothing about them that was anyway objectionable, just kids being kids (trips to the park, museums, etc.) But I wish I could undo all of it.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:52 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I did this with my kids when they were small in the years before YouTube and Facebook (to share with family cross country, not for blogging/attention/profit) and I deeply, deeply regret it. At least some of those pictures are still discoverable. There was nothing about them that was anyway objectionable, just kids being kids (trips to the park, museums, etc.) But I wish I could undo all of it.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:52 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nope. The only secure place to put a diary is in a paper notebook inside a locked cabinet. The only secure images are pen and ink. And you'd better hope your private musings are not discovered by someone who can copy and monetize them without your consent.
posted by TrishaU at 11:53 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by TrishaU at 11:53 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
As Wheaton's story illustrates, this is not a wholly new form of child labor. It's one that either never went away, or developed in an era in which child labor in general was supposed to be prohibited.
But I still find myself wondering if this is part of a return of child labor in the places where it has been prohibited. Like if there's a small number of child stars who are exploited, that's very bad for them. But it would be even worse if this became the norm of child-raising, if there was a widespread or general abolition or harvesting of childhood.
posted by grobstein at 11:55 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
But I still find myself wondering if this is part of a return of child labor in the places where it has been prohibited. Like if there's a small number of child stars who are exploited, that's very bad for them. But it would be even worse if this became the norm of child-raising, if there was a widespread or general abolition or harvesting of childhood.
posted by grobstein at 11:55 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was also an absolute showboat as a kid. I loved to act, and I would have wanted nothing else in life besides being on Nickelodeon. Thankfully, my parents had sense, plus we lived in a place where the biggest showbiz opportunity was when they held cattle-call auditions for Three Men and a Little Lady in Memphis.
... But I still find myself wondering if this is part of a return of child labor in the places where it has been prohibited.
Claire's father is holding her responsible for giving the family a middle-class lifestyle. That is a real POS thing to do, and the guy would probably always be a POS, but in a better world he wouldn't have that to hold over her.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:56 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
... But I still find myself wondering if this is part of a return of child labor in the places where it has been prohibited.
Claire's father is holding her responsible for giving the family a middle-class lifestyle. That is a real POS thing to do, and the guy would probably always be a POS, but in a better world he wouldn't have that to hold over her.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:56 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
The state of Illinois is poised to pass the nation's first law protecting children from exploitation by parents posting their images online for money.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 11:58 AM on March 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
Bill sponsor state Sen. David Koehler, D-Peoria, compared it to California's 1938 "Coogan Law" -- named after the child silent film star Jackie Coogan -- that first protected the income of child actors in Hollywood.(In case you're depressed by the news from Arkansas and you want to see another state headed in the right direction instead.)
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 11:58 AM on March 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
I haven't RTFA but I did see a Tik Tok recently on one of my social media feeds (Tumblr or Mastodon, probably), where a young woman influencer was reading a letter from a kid performer on one of these YouTube channels. The life the kid's letter was describing was so awful and depressing that it made me glad one more time that I didn't have a kid to fuck up. Though I have to admit fucking up in that particular way would not have occurred to me.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:59 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:59 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I meant more like "legalistically," than strictly "legally" -- more as a counterpoint to moral & ethical.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:05 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 12:05 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I haven't RTFA but I did see a Tik Tok recently on one of my social media feeds (Tumblr or Mastodon, probably), where a young woman influencer was reading a letter from a kid performer on one of these YouTube channels.
I think that's probably the same one from the last graf of the article.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:23 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that's probably the same one from the last graf of the article.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:23 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that's probably the same one from the last graf of the article.
Having clicked through to check, yes it is.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 12:27 PM on March 13, 2023
Having clicked through to check, yes it is.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 12:27 PM on March 13, 2023
Take baby pictures if you want, share baby pictures if you want, but explain to them what that means, and stop if they ever ask, and probably stop when they're eight or nine anyway.
Are you saying to stop taking and sharing pictures of my child after the age of 8?
posted by MrBobaFett at 12:34 PM on March 13, 2023
Are you saying to stop taking and sharing pictures of my child after the age of 8?
posted by MrBobaFett at 12:34 PM on March 13, 2023
Intentionally leaving names out of this, but I remember a dad blogger years ago who ended up creating a business out of software he created for his own use tracking whenever his kid slept or pooped. He had a daily photo thing on his blog, he posted about how he was tracking the data, and people got excited about this new revolution in quantified selves. I didn't follow closely so I missed any announcement, but at some point it all went offline. If my memory about the timing is right, his kid would be in college now. I wonder if any of their peers know that their dad used to post about tracking their poops and people were so into it that other people paid to use the software to track their own kids' poops. I wonder if any of them had their own poops tracked by the same software.
(It should be obvious, but please respect their privacy and don't out them if you know who I'm talking about, unless you know them personally and they say it's OK).
posted by fedward at 12:38 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
(It should be obvious, but please respect their privacy and don't out them if you know who I'm talking about, unless you know them personally and they say it's OK).
posted by fedward at 12:38 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Are you saying to stop taking and sharing pictures of my child after the age of 8?
Take all the pics you want. Share none of them.
posted by Billiken at 12:40 PM on March 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
Take all the pics you want. Share none of them.
posted by Billiken at 12:40 PM on March 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think of these situations whenever I've seen an ad for a basic cable reality show about child beauty pageants or dance competitions, where the show is the stage mother generally being a chemical spill while inflicting her dreams on a child. Ugh. And good on WW for that letter.
posted by the sobsister at 12:40 PM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by the sobsister at 12:40 PM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Are you saying to stop taking and sharing pictures of my child after the age of 8?
Taking and sharing aren't the same thing. But as far as sharing goes, yes, this is about the age at which (in my experience), parents start asking permission to post photos, and kids sometimes start saying no. That is, if parents haven't long ago restricted any child photos to locked-down walled garden accounts that are basically just glorified cloud storage.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:42 PM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Taking and sharing aren't the same thing. But as far as sharing goes, yes, this is about the age at which (in my experience), parents start asking permission to post photos, and kids sometimes start saying no. That is, if parents haven't long ago restricted any child photos to locked-down walled garden accounts that are basically just glorified cloud storage.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:42 PM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Season 2, Episode 4 of The Baby-Sitters Club is about this.
posted by one for the books at 12:46 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by one for the books at 12:46 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Take all the pics you want. Share none of them.
I'm assuming we have a different definition for sharing? I send pictures to my parents and close friends, or on closed servers.
I don't publish them on the public internet.
posted by MrBobaFett at 12:48 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm assuming we have a different definition for sharing? I send pictures to my parents and close friends, or on closed servers.
I don't publish them on the public internet.
posted by MrBobaFett at 12:48 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
This sort of thing is also related to parents who are pushing their kids in sports. You so often see (here in Canada) boys being pushed to climb a ladder to the NHL that a tiny percentage will ever reach the top off. It becomes the family's whole life and one that kids are often desperate to escape. Even worse for the untalented sibling who gets to endure the early morning practice and every weekend road trips but just sits in the stands.
posted by Mitheral at 12:50 PM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 12:50 PM on March 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Are you saying to stop taking and sharing pictures of my child after the age of 8?
You can still take them, but then it depends who you're sharing them with. There's a huge difference between sharing on your personal Facebook page, where you friend only people you know, and for which you do not seek an audience and sharing them on an Instagram feed that you pay to promote in the hopes of profiting off it eventually.
Even in the former case, once your kids are old enough to have an opinion, their opinion that they don't want a given photo or any photos at all shared should be respected. They should get to have some autonomy over this sort of thing, even if you want to send that cute picture of them on the playground to grandma. Even when I was a kid, we'd get photos developed and look at them together before my mom decided which ones to get reprinted o mail to my Oma in Germany -- I feel pretty confident that if 8 year old me had said 'Oh, no, don't send that one, I hate it', my mother would have respected that.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:51 PM on March 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
You can still take them, but then it depends who you're sharing them with. There's a huge difference between sharing on your personal Facebook page, where you friend only people you know, and for which you do not seek an audience and sharing them on an Instagram feed that you pay to promote in the hopes of profiting off it eventually.
Even in the former case, once your kids are old enough to have an opinion, their opinion that they don't want a given photo or any photos at all shared should be respected. They should get to have some autonomy over this sort of thing, even if you want to send that cute picture of them on the playground to grandma. Even when I was a kid, we'd get photos developed and look at them together before my mom decided which ones to get reprinted o mail to my Oma in Germany -- I feel pretty confident that if 8 year old me had said 'Oh, no, don't send that one, I hate it', my mother would have respected that.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:51 PM on March 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
Coogan Laws should absolutely be extended to online media, at the absolute bare minimum. Good for Illinois for getting the ball rolling.
I read Wil's post on Tumblr earlier today, and the room got very dusty.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:52 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I read Wil's post on Tumblr earlier today, and the room got very dusty.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:52 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm assuming we have a different definition for sharing? I send pictures to my parents and close friends, or on closed servers.
I don't publish them on the public internet.
So you two are in agreement! This thread is about sharing photos on the internet so I don't get the confusion.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:53 PM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't publish them on the public internet.
So you two are in agreement! This thread is about sharing photos on the internet so I don't get the confusion.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:53 PM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
I personally don't think kids' pictures should be published for the delectation of strangers or relative strangers. My kids are not on my (mostly dormant) social media accounts unless their faces are obscured. They're not publicly available but I don't necessarily need Bob Smith whom I spoke to once during grad school to see my kids' photos. We do share photos constantly on closed signal/whatsapp/discord groups but these are all people who are in our lives in a very real way, not the para-social relationships that we have on social media.
posted by sid at 12:57 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sid at 12:57 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
This sort of thing is also related to parents who are pushing their kids in sports. You so often see (here in Canada) boys being pushed to climb a ladder to the NHL that a tiny percentage will ever reach the top off.
...or every single organized youth activity in the US.
posted by slogger at 1:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
...or every single organized youth activity in the US.
posted by slogger at 1:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
MeFi's own jscalzi on his family having unquestioned veto power over what he shares about them online: The Athena Veto
posted by indexy at 1:04 PM on March 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by indexy at 1:04 PM on March 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
I don't have kids, but I do have nieces and a nephew, and I will not put their pictures up on my IG feed ever. I think about asking their parents if it's okay and always land on, "This is private and not for public." My sister used to put pictures of her kids all over her Facebook and Instagram when they were young, but now that they are teens, they do it themselves.
posted by Kitteh at 1:22 PM on March 13, 2023
posted by Kitteh at 1:22 PM on March 13, 2023
I didn't know that Wil Wheaton felt that way about his parents, although I've read a fair amount of his writing.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:32 PM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:32 PM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
He's been talking about it for a little while, but especially in the last couple of years.
2022 blog on WW.net
posted by custardfairy at 1:42 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
2022 blog on WW.net
posted by custardfairy at 1:42 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I remember a dad blogger years ago who ended up creating a business out of software he created for his own use tracking whenever his kid slept or pooped... I wonder if any of their peers know that their dad used to post about tracking their poops and people were so into it that other people paid to use the software to track their own kids' poops. I wonder if any of them had their own poops tracked by the same software.
As a current user of this type of software: it's really, really helpful. I can never remember when my child last ate or slept or pooped - I have to look at the app.
But I guess I am now promising never to share the data - or the picture of the first pooh in the potty. (They made a pooh! in the potty! it was so exciting.)
posted by jb at 1:43 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a current user of this type of software: it's really, really helpful. I can never remember when my child last ate or slept or pooped - I have to look at the app.
But I guess I am now promising never to share the data - or the picture of the first pooh in the potty. (They made a pooh! in the potty! it was so exciting.)
posted by jb at 1:43 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm assuming we have a different definition for sharing? I send pictures to my parents and close friends, or on closed servers.
I don't publish them on the public internet.
So you two are in agreement! This thread is about sharing photos on the internet so I don't get the confusion.
Maybe there is confusion because if a photo is on the internet, it can be shared, even if originally posted in a private forum.
I share family photos in a private Google Photo album - the only people who can view it are relatives and close friends. Theoretically, anyone of them could save a photo and post it publicly, though I trust them not to. But it's not secure.
Also, we call it "sharing" still, but I agree: sharing photos in a closed album or a friends-only Facebook post is not the same as sharing on a public platform like Instagram, YouTube or TikTok.
posted by jb at 1:49 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't publish them on the public internet.
So you two are in agreement! This thread is about sharing photos on the internet so I don't get the confusion.
Maybe there is confusion because if a photo is on the internet, it can be shared, even if originally posted in a private forum.
I share family photos in a private Google Photo album - the only people who can view it are relatives and close friends. Theoretically, anyone of them could save a photo and post it publicly, though I trust them not to. But it's not secure.
Also, we call it "sharing" still, but I agree: sharing photos in a closed album or a friends-only Facebook post is not the same as sharing on a public platform like Instagram, YouTube or TikTok.
posted by jb at 1:49 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, this is stomach-churning. For anyone else having a shitty day now due to the strong DaddyOfFive vibes here, all I've got is Patrick Teahan, LICSW and the reminder that Sarah Polley seems to have turned out OK despite Terry Gilliam's best efforts.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Paddle to Sea at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was a model as a kid. Whenever the mall my dad worked at had a fashion show, I'd model clothes for the store. It was fun, and I made something like $20 a pop. It was was also incredibly low stakes.
I can't imagine being responsible for supporting my family as a pre-teen. That's just horrible.
posted by Spike Glee at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can't imagine being responsible for supporting my family as a pre-teen. That's just horrible.
posted by Spike Glee at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Of 4,000 or so kids in the local school district, I was one of 4 parents (FOUR!) that signed to opt out of allowing any pictures of my kids to be shared on the district website or social media sites. The district made it an opt out rather than an opt in and I spent several board meetings trying to convince them that opting out was the wrong default. THe board's final response was that it was too much work to see who opted in, it was easier to see who had opted out and just avoid taking their picture. I asked them over and over if their responsibility was to the kids not the parents.
All three of my kids played sports and it was hard for the district to take pictures of teams and game play and not include my kids. My kids still thank me for it to this day and they are in their late 20s. The local paper refused to take down a picture of my son the quarterback on the football team. They said, and they were legally right, that the game was played in public and they have a right to take pictures of people in public. The week after they published his picture, he ran for the winning touchdown. THey wanted to interview him after the game. He literally told them to "Fuck off". They never published another picture of him for the rest of his junior year and for his senior year.
I have thousands and thousands of pictures of my kids. I have given them all an external hard drive loaded with the pictures, but I have never posted them anywhere. Even when I would send the grandparents pictures, I would print out hard copies and send them in a frame.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 2:02 PM on March 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
All three of my kids played sports and it was hard for the district to take pictures of teams and game play and not include my kids. My kids still thank me for it to this day and they are in their late 20s. The local paper refused to take down a picture of my son the quarterback on the football team. They said, and they were legally right, that the game was played in public and they have a right to take pictures of people in public. The week after they published his picture, he ran for the winning touchdown. THey wanted to interview him after the game. He literally told them to "Fuck off". They never published another picture of him for the rest of his junior year and for his senior year.
I have thousands and thousands of pictures of my kids. I have given them all an external hard drive loaded with the pictures, but I have never posted them anywhere. Even when I would send the grandparents pictures, I would print out hard copies and send them in a frame.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 2:02 PM on March 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
Maybe there is confusion because if a photo is on the internet, it can be shared, even if originally posted in a private forum.
Think the vibe here is a little too nitpicky, pedantic, and fighty about this simply because kids are involved. Noping out.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Think the vibe here is a little too nitpicky, pedantic, and fighty about this simply because kids are involved. Noping out.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
jacquilynne what you're describing just sounds like normal common practice and as you point out isn't very different from how we dealt with photos even pre-internet.
I would equate publishing a photo on the public internet equivalent to publishing it in an international magazine in the pre-internet times. Like you would need a pretty good reason to openly publish photos of your kids.
I think sometimes the issue comes from people not understanding how public, the public internet is. Like they think posting something on Facebook is just something their friends can see, which isn't true without an overt effort to make it private, unfortunately.
These influencers however obviously don't fall into that camp. They are explicitly publishing their kids for profit, which is worse than unwittingly sharing a photo of 8-year-old MrBobaFett covered head to toe with mud and a shit-eating grin where my co-workers can find it.
posted by MrBobaFett at 2:23 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would equate publishing a photo on the public internet equivalent to publishing it in an international magazine in the pre-internet times. Like you would need a pretty good reason to openly publish photos of your kids.
I think sometimes the issue comes from people not understanding how public, the public internet is. Like they think posting something on Facebook is just something their friends can see, which isn't true without an overt effort to make it private, unfortunately.
These influencers however obviously don't fall into that camp. They are explicitly publishing their kids for profit, which is worse than unwittingly sharing a photo of 8-year-old MrBobaFett covered head to toe with mud and a shit-eating grin where my co-workers can find it.
posted by MrBobaFett at 2:23 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: the vibe here is a little too nitpicky, pedantic, and fighty
Somebody was going to do it. Might as well be me.
posted by COD at 2:27 PM on March 13, 2023 [26 favorites]
Somebody was going to do it. Might as well be me.
posted by COD at 2:27 PM on March 13, 2023 [26 favorites]
The algorithm decided a while back that I would be interested in a genre of videos where tiktok influencers document their dying child for profit. I was not interested. I've also seen enough "injured animal is saved by humans" where it was obvious that the same humans were the ones to cause the injury, so it's really only a matter of time before someone kills their kid for fame or profit.
posted by Dynex at 2:28 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dynex at 2:28 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a very old, as in pre-digital, problem for children from all kinds of families.
I have a funny daddy
Who goes in and out with me;
And everything that baby does
My daddy’s sure to see.
And everything that baby says
My daddy’s sure to tell;
You must have read my daddy’s work
I hope he fries in Hell!
(My Daddy by Ogden Nash, 1902-1971)
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 2:28 PM on March 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
I have a funny daddy
Who goes in and out with me;
And everything that baby does
My daddy’s sure to see.
And everything that baby says
My daddy’s sure to tell;
You must have read my daddy’s work
I hope he fries in Hell!
(My Daddy by Ogden Nash, 1902-1971)
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 2:28 PM on March 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
A previous generations version might be Marjoe, the child preacher.
IMdb page for movie .
youtube trailer
posted by danjo at 2:36 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
IMdb page for movie .
youtube trailer
posted by danjo at 2:36 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I give my kids veto and have for years. When I was in media though I was pressured a lot to bring my kids, or do projects with my kids for The Brand's Social Media. In a way I'm glad, because that helped me clarify that I didn't want to become a mommy blogger etc.
For the lack of influencer labour laws, this article (although long) is a really interesting look at the tween/preteen-> LA pipeline.
I know it's terrible but I have been waiting for Heather Armstrong's kids to grow up and tell us the story. Which is just...being part of the problem. What I really hope for them is peace.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:48 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
For the lack of influencer labour laws, this article (although long) is a really interesting look at the tween/preteen-> LA pipeline.
I know it's terrible but I have been waiting for Heather Armstrong's kids to grow up and tell us the story. Which is just...being part of the problem. What I really hope for them is peace.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:48 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I asked them over and over if their responsibility was to the kids not the parents.
This reminds me of the recent GOP push for a Parents' Bill of Rights. Seems a lot of folks wish the schools erred toward the parent side...
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 2:51 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
This reminds me of the recent GOP push for a Parents' Bill of Rights. Seems a lot of folks wish the schools erred toward the parent side...
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 2:51 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The local paper refused to take down a picture of my son the quarterback on the football team. They said, and they were legally right, that the game was played in public and they have a right to take pictures of people in public. The week after they published his picture, he ran for the winning touchdown. THey wanted to interview him after the game. He literally told them to "Fuck off". They never published another picture of him for the rest of his junior year and for his senior year.
Your kid is badass.
posted by grobstein at 2:53 PM on March 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
Your kid is badass.
posted by grobstein at 2:53 PM on March 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
A relative teaches at a small private school in LA, and their kid goes there, and a large number of the kids are involved in Hollywood, mostly commercials, but also shows, the opportunities of which have grown exponentially with Amazon/Netflix/etc. They occasionally get to hang out with kid and cousins with me chaperoning, and none of them seem happy to be movie kids, but relative is always impressed and parents always talk gushingly about it.
Most don't even make all that much money from it, though there is the occasional one with a beachfront home.
It's a really weird, insular world. I'm actually pretty glad to get a glimpse in from a sociological perspective, even though I have no interest in participating or putting my own kids through it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:55 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Most don't even make all that much money from it, though there is the occasional one with a beachfront home.
It's a really weird, insular world. I'm actually pretty glad to get a glimpse in from a sociological perspective, even though I have no interest in participating or putting my own kids through it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:55 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
COD: Metafilter: the vibe here is a little too nitpicky, pedantic, and fighty
Somebody was going to do it. Might as well be me.
**smashes “subscribe” button and leaves a comment below**
posted by dr_dank at 2:58 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Somebody was going to do it. Might as well be me.
**smashes “subscribe” button and leaves a comment below**
posted by dr_dank at 2:58 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Grim grim grim grim grim. It's not new -- you can go back to the golden age of movie stars and find kids who were groomed for stardom and the attendant earnings expectations -- but like all hustle culture, it's extra grim because it ensnares ever more people with even worse payoff. Before, if someone took the stage parent thing seriously, they would move to LA or NYC or [insert second-tier entertainment hub city here, in the 90s it was Orlando]. Now, anyone can do it from anywhere. And it's even worse knowing that Coogan's Law doesn't apply; I'm sure 15% of earnings wouldn't make the suffering worth it, but it would at least make it easier for kids to escape their parents as soon as they hit 18.
posted by grandiloquiet at 3:12 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 3:12 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Alyson Stoner talked about this extensively in relation to being involved in professional acting film productions [so somewhat regulated as opposed to the seemingly totally unregulated wold of Youtube/TikTok/Instagram etc] as a child:
I survived the : The Toddler-to-Trainwreck Industrial Complex | Alyson Stoner [Youtube Video]
I thought there was a MeFi about it when it was first released a year ago, but I can't find it now.
Stoner's filmography includes (among other things) :
- Lilo and Stitch :The Series (voice only) aged 8
- Cheaper by the Dozen aged 10
- Cheaper by the Dozen 2 Aged 12
Stoner has mostly been doing voice acting roles since 2020
posted by Faintdreams at 3:31 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I survived the : The Toddler-to-Trainwreck Industrial Complex | Alyson Stoner [Youtube Video]
I thought there was a MeFi about it when it was first released a year ago, but I can't find it now.
Stoner's filmography includes (among other things) :
- Lilo and Stitch :The Series (voice only) aged 8
- Cheaper by the Dozen aged 10
- Cheaper by the Dozen 2 Aged 12
Stoner has mostly been doing voice acting roles since 2020
posted by Faintdreams at 3:31 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think there's such a clear difference between the influencers being talked about in the article and the debate here about posting pics of your kids on social media. The former is about child labor - children being used by their parents for fame and money, and the impacts on kids are just on another level. It's like the difference between a dad maybe being a little too intense about his son playing football, and a family moving to LA so their child can start auditioning for commercials when they're 4 and make the family rich.
Neither is great, but the latter can literally ruin a child's life. And the kids interviewed for this article are in the social media equivalent of the latter. They should be protected by child labor laws but they aren't because we don't yet have the legal framework to separate building a business around your children from sharing a few pics on instagram.
posted by lunasol at 3:46 PM on March 13, 2023 [23 favorites]
Neither is great, but the latter can literally ruin a child's life. And the kids interviewed for this article are in the social media equivalent of the latter. They should be protected by child labor laws but they aren't because we don't yet have the legal framework to separate building a business around your children from sharing a few pics on instagram.
posted by lunasol at 3:46 PM on March 13, 2023 [23 favorites]
I didn't read the article, because I understand it all too well. I have a cousin who's wife has put every aspect of their only child's life on YouTube. He's only three now. I avoid her channel at all costs, as it makes me sad and angry and uncomfortable. I don't understand this desire to put your child out there for all the world to see. I find it horrifying and terribly terribly sad.
posted by annieb at 3:49 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by annieb at 3:49 PM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Maybe just slip this article to the cousin…
posted by Bottlecap at 4:16 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 4:16 PM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is another remarkable story from the world of unregulated child labor via social media. Paywalled, unfortunately, but it is an excellent piece about Youtuber Piper Rockelle, her mother, and various other children drawn into this venture.
As a child, I could not sympathize with my parents' refusal to allow me to professionally act. Now, I know it was because I had decent parents.
I went to school with several child actors over the years, who mostly turned out fine. But what they all had in common was extremely overbearing parents, with a serious desire for extra income. What the ones who turned out pretty much fine had in common was that they exited entertainment for at least some period of time during puberty. There is a special cruelty in forcing a kid to seek work while they feel physically unattractive and self-conscious, especially since pretty much no production wants kids in their "awkward stage," leading children to feel (or be literally told) that they are "washed up." You know, at age twelve. The psychological damage is incredible. (See Licorice Pizza for a highly accurate portrayal of what it's like to be a semiretired child actor, btw.)
I can't imagine being forced to have a public puberty on Youtube because my parents were that addicted to advertising dollars. Jesus H. Christ.
posted by desert outpost at 4:29 PM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
As a child, I could not sympathize with my parents' refusal to allow me to professionally act. Now, I know it was because I had decent parents.
I went to school with several child actors over the years, who mostly turned out fine. But what they all had in common was extremely overbearing parents, with a serious desire for extra income. What the ones who turned out pretty much fine had in common was that they exited entertainment for at least some period of time during puberty. There is a special cruelty in forcing a kid to seek work while they feel physically unattractive and self-conscious, especially since pretty much no production wants kids in their "awkward stage," leading children to feel (or be literally told) that they are "washed up." You know, at age twelve. The psychological damage is incredible. (See Licorice Pizza for a highly accurate portrayal of what it's like to be a semiretired child actor, btw.)
I can't imagine being forced to have a public puberty on Youtube because my parents were that addicted to advertising dollars. Jesus H. Christ.
posted by desert outpost at 4:29 PM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Someone posted about parents using social media to document children who are ill, which led me to Illness live: sick children on social media, although the full paper is paywalled.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:10 AM on March 14, 2023
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 2:10 AM on March 14, 2023
All three of my kids played sports and it was hard for the district to take pictures of teams and game play and not include my kids. My kids still thank me for it to this day and they are in their late 20s. The local paper refused to take down a picture of my son the quarterback on the football team. They said, and they were legally right, that the game was played in public and they have a right to take pictures of people in public. The week after they published his picture, he ran for the winning touchdown. THey wanted to interview him after the game. He literally told them to "Fuck off". They never published another picture of him for the rest of his junior year and for his senior year.
One of the things that seems to have changed in relatively recent (i.e. the last twenty or so) years is that there are a lot, and I mean a lot, more pictures of high school kids involved in sports in local papers. My theory is that the surviving newspapers will do just about anything to hold onto their shrinking readership/subscriber base, and that scrapbookers documenting their child's or grandchild's teen sports career will buy the paper just for those appearances. So, kids who basically have had one good game or match will have bigger and better pictures in the sports section than Lebron James.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:21 AM on March 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
One of the things that seems to have changed in relatively recent (i.e. the last twenty or so) years is that there are a lot, and I mean a lot, more pictures of high school kids involved in sports in local papers. My theory is that the surviving newspapers will do just about anything to hold onto their shrinking readership/subscriber base, and that scrapbookers documenting their child's or grandchild's teen sports career will buy the paper just for those appearances. So, kids who basically have had one good game or match will have bigger and better pictures in the sports section than Lebron James.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:21 AM on March 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I saw the above-the-fold part of this on the front page and immediately thought "oooh, I bet Wil Wheaton has Opinions about all this." Glad he's seen it and made a public reply and I hope it helps 'Claire' feel a bit less alone about it.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:32 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 7:32 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I didn't know that Wil Wheaton felt that way about his parents, although I've read a fair amount of his writing.
I haven’t read all of Still Just a Geek yet, but I heard Wil read from it, and I believe it’s “Just a Geek, annotated with what Wil has learned in ongoing therapy”.
Which is not a knock on it at all. The reading was raw and real. I learned some
stuff worth hearing.
posted by clauclauclaudia at 9:58 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I haven’t read all of Still Just a Geek yet, but I heard Wil read from it, and I believe it’s “Just a Geek, annotated with what Wil has learned in ongoing therapy”.
Which is not a knock on it at all. The reading was raw and real. I learned some
stuff worth hearing.
posted by clauclauclaudia at 9:58 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Our young adult kids have taken to shouting, when certain family members take a photo of them, "I do not consent for this to be posted on social media!"
posted by sockshaveholes at 11:06 AM on March 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by sockshaveholes at 11:06 AM on March 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
The podcast Some Place Under Neither has done a series about this type of child exploitation. There are parents making money by deliberately posting content of interest to pedophiles. It's grotesque.
posted by LindsayIrene at 3:08 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by LindsayIrene at 3:08 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thinking back to the couple of times my picture was in the newspaper as a teen - Mom never signed any kind of release. Then again, those were simpler times, back during the War of 1812.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:57 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:57 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
« Older Going ... going ... Goines | I never see it folded until it’s printed. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
A related article I read from the Atavist, in which the industry transformed a young influencer* into something that may or may not transform back into what he was before.
----
* I'm taking it as read that these people are famous, although I am blessed to know nothing else about them.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:09 AM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]